Prior post to this thread have been archived here. This
is done to keep the loading time down. Thanks

Archives 1
http://www.concernedmembers.com/forumarchives/madison/021126.html

Archives 2
http://www.concernedmembers.com/forumarchives/madison/021024g.txt

Archives 3
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=150389&messageid=1027181246

Archives 4
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=150389&messageid=1041888038

Archives 5
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=150389&messageid=1049383651

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
THE ORIGINAL QUESTION CAME FROM THE POST: “SCRIPTURE FOR WORSHIP” ON AUGUST 9, 2003 (7:54 P.M.):
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Could you show me one scripture that states that in the assembly of the saints on earth is a "worship" service?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In my initial response, I stated: “I really appreciate you asking this great and brilliantly-worded question.” I followed that with an admission: “I’m afraid that there may not be any passage to quote; let’s see….” I went on to say:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[[[There is {growing} evidence that WORSHIP has been sadly misinterpreted, misunderstood, and misdirected to the point that there has arisen a number of issues related to the office of WORSHIP LEADER, handclapping, musical instruments, the use of the services of the worship leader’s PRAISE TEAM, solo performances, humming, the complexity of MUSIC itself and its role in the “assembly” for “worship service”—along with many other issues.

We often forget the true meaning of worship, or wonder if there is even such a thing as “corporate worship” that the Change Movement and its agents would have us term it. Praise and worship, although related in terms of our relationship with the Father, are two different forms of offerings. I believe that in both cases, it is really a personal, an individual expression of both thanksgiving and honoring in reverence to our Father in heaven. Obviously, no one else is responsible for an individual’s praise and … worship. The Worship Leader or his musicians are obviously not responsible for an individual member’s worship of God.

There is a command to worship and there is the form of worship expressed in John 4:23,24—“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” That is the only style of worship prescribed for the worshipper (if one may call it a “style”). Even this passage doesn’t speak of an “assembly of the saints” being in a “worship service”….

Prior to the establishment of the church, the synagogue (defined as a Bible school assembly) was a gathering that was “conducted in an informal setting, with lay people leading out in prayer, reading, singing and exhortation.” It appears that the assembly in the early New Testament church maintained that similarity in the nature and purpose of the gathering, the only fundamental difference being the “messianic proclamation” (understandably so), which was absent in the synagogue. [There was on the first day of the week] the “breaking of the bread” [or the Lord’s Supper], according to Acts 20:7, as well as the preaching and teaching in the assembly, as illustrated in the same passage. This simply means that the “assembly of the saints” in the early church was geared towards being that of a Bible school with the emphasis on its content being “Word-centered.”

How did the “Word-centered” assembly of the early church become a “MUSICAL WORSHIP” performance-driven service in this postmodern era? ...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
HERE’S A RESPONSE RECEIVED THROUGH AN EMAILTO ME:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[T]here really is no scripture that uses the word "worship" in connection to the assembling of the Christians in the New Testament. … [A]fter reading some of your website, I was incensed at the methods you are using to try and control a church. But … you may be right. There may be some true "change agents" who want change for change's sake. There certainly were those kinds of people who infiltrated the ranks of the early church - those with an agenda. Also, I do believe that there is way too much singing and too much emphasis put on singing lately . . . But I honestly don't think that it's a salvation issue - especially so when you consider that the assembly is NOT supposed to be a "worship service" but an "edification service" instead. Do you see the importance of that fact? If the assembling of Christians "at church" is not supposed to be worship (although worship may occur) then what we do there may not be under the close scrutiny by God as much as we have often thought it was. Actually, I believe that the verse you cited in John, as well as Romans 12: 1- 3 (or so), explains the true definition of worship. It is a DAILY, MINUTE BY MINUTE attitude of reverence, gratitude, and personal exaltation that springs from the heart of man toward God and is reflected in the man's relationship to those around him. The Christian gets together with other Christians on a regular basis to edify and confirm his conviction in God and to support the others there in their own attempts to remain faithful….
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DONNIE’S ANSWERS TO THE RESPONDENT ABOVE—WHO PREFERS TO REMAIN UNIDENTIFIED:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
… I find your letter [above] as sincere, honest, sensible and scriptural. You are exactly right in saying that musical worship is overemphasized today, and too much focus is being given to it at the expense of the learning of scriptures being downgraded or de-emphasized—the reason why I keep bringing it up.

… I was in the 10:30am assembly at Madison one Sunday and suddenly this musical partying began which really shocked me and many others. (I think you know what I mean.) Not many realized then but rather underestimated the impact … that it would bring division in a congregation or cause many members to leave. Surely, this was not to happen at Madison—a leading congregation of the church of Christ in the world. (I didn’t know about the Concerned Members website till much later—came across it via the net. Trust me—I do not own the website.) But I am so disappointed in church leaders who allow these things to happen to congregations….

… I hope to be able to … reinforce what the Scripture already says about an individual Christian’s worship to God. I just have the feeling that more and more of the members of the church are led to believe that worship does not occur until they meet for the “corporate” [?] musical gathering. Perhaps, I’m failing to get my point and message across, as you and I agree, that assembly of the saints is not about being in a “worship” service. I see MUSICAL WORSHIP in the church as a “charismatic” invention or imitation, and the strong emphasis on it is splitting congregations of the church. Personally, I do not even see singing as a command, although it can occur as a means of letting “the word of Christ” dwell in us. And this goes along with what you’re saying that there’s been “too much emphasis put on singing lately.” I might even go further as to say that there’s been “too much emphasis put on MUSICAL WORSHIP lately” … since MUSIC involves extraneous activities in addition to singing.

I agree with you that many issues that confront the church are “not salvation” issues—in and of themselves, perhaps. But when they cause conflict, division, alienation, I believe it is the church leaders’ responsibility to be in charge and stand for the truth and take care of the flock.

Donnie Cruz
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WHILE I CAN’T PROMISE THAT THE ABOVE CORRESPONDENCE WILL CONTINUE:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Let me aver that the respondent above made this statement with confidence: “There really is no scripture that uses the word WORSHIP in connection to the assembling of the Christians in the New Testament.” There is NONE.

Perhaps, I need further explanation of the statement: “After reading some of your website, I was incensed at the methods you are using to try and control a church.” My response to this is that Donnie Cruz or this website is not trying to “control a church.” The truth is that the elders are the ones who exercise this power to control a congregation—an advantage that they have as “shepherds of the flock”—whether it is based on God’s direction or it is done without scriptural authorization. If control is not exercised by the eldership, then it is exercised by other types of leaders who have great influences upon the elders.

I agree with the rest of the comments stated accurately and scripturally in the email.

Finally, which is more important: (1) for the elders [the scriptural form of leadership] to really take care of the flock by preserving peace and unity; or (2) for the elders to continue to allow the [other] culture-designated form of leadership that provides “holy” fun and musical entertainment in the name of “praise”?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Donnie Cruz

=================================================
IMPORTANT MESSAGE FROM THE MADISON MARCHER (AUGUST 13, 2003)
PREACHER POTPOURRI (BY DR. C. BRUCE WHITE)
=================================================
The shepherds are planning a new vision for Madison. They will be listening for awhile and then formulating what the Spirit leads them to envision for this church. Your prayers are earnestly solicited….

We are blessed each week with an inspirational and uplifting worship service. The measure of that level is involvement. Join in the singing and connect your spirit with His. It will make a difference….
=================================================

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS RE: THE NEW VISION AND MUSICAL WORSHIP
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[] Is the new vision for Madison a direct result of the upheaval that occurred in the recent past?
[] Does the new vision include the transition of the 8:00 service to a “contemporary” style also?
[] Is the 10:30 assembly going to revert its “style” of worship from the “contemporary”?
[] Is the 10:30 assembly changing its “musical worship” programming to congregational singing?
[] Is the hierarchical form of leadership the new form of church organization?
[] Is the eldership going to re-study Madison’s past and re-activate plans that made it great?
[] Is the eldership to listen to more of the change agents’ agenda and schemes for this body?
[] Is the eldership going to do whatever it takes to bring those that have left back to fellowship?
[] While the elders are listening for awhile and suggestions are made, will they ensure that these are in accordance with God’s will and that further division is prevented?
[] What does this really mean: “… and then formulating what the Spirit leads them to envision for this church”?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[] Isn’t the “musical worship” programming in concert format entertaining and fun—making the worship service inspirational and uplifting?
[] Does it mean that less MUSIC, but more of the Word-centered emphasis and focus, will make the “worship service” less inspiring and uplifting?
[] Does “joining in the singing” imply that there is now less congregational singing because the Worship Leader’s Praise Team, the solo performances and duets, the humming and clapping have taken over and dominated the “musical worship”?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

=================================================
THE WORSHIP LEADER’S CONTEMPORARY MUSICAL/CONCERT ON AUGUST 17, 2003
=================================================
--- Jesus Will Fix It (**Sheet music available at the door) ----------- Keith Lancaster
--- Deep Calls to Deep
--- Get Right Church
--- Hosanna!
--- I Will Bless the Lord at All Times (Praise & Worship, #25)
--- There is a Redeemer
--- Blue Skies and Rainbows (Praise for the Lord, #851)
--- How Excellent Is Thy Name
--- On Bended Knee (P&W #6)
--- Freely, Freely (#852)
--- We Will Stand (*in red notebook)
--- --- (Solo by Kevin Dunnebacke; 4-part Praise Team accompanying with “ooh—“)
--- --- Sometimes it’s hard for [Ooh----------------]
--- --- me to understand why we [ooh----------------]
--- --- pull away from each other so easi- [ooh--------------]
--- --- ly even though we’re all [ooh---------------]
--- --- walking the same road yet we [ooh--------------]
--- --- build dividing walls between our [ooh----------------]
--- --- brothers and our- [ooh--------------] selves, but I, … [ooh---------------]
--- --- (Solo stops)
--- --- You’re my brother, you’re my sister, so take me by the hand.
--- --- Together we will work until He comes.
--- --- There’s no foe that can defeat us when we’re walking side by side.
--- --- As long as there is love we will stand.
=================================================

=================================================
THE WORSHIP LEADER’S CONTEMPORARY MUSICAL/CONCERT ON AUGUST 24, 2003
=================================================
--- Agnus Dei ------------------------------------------- Keith Lancaster
--- I Love the Lord Messiah (clap, clap, clap)
--- Sing Amen, Amen (clap, clap, clap)
--- Great Is the Lord Almighty [*sheet music for this song in red notebook] (clap)
--- O What a Glorious God (action song—plus clap, clap, clap)
--- Worship the Lord with Gladness (clap, clap, clap)
--- My Life Is In Your, Lord (*song in red notebook)
--- --- My [clap] life is [clap] in You [clap], Lord [clap],
--- --- My [clap] hope is [clap] in You [clap], Lord [clap],
--- --- My [clap] strength is [clap] in You [clap], Lord [clap],
--- --- I will [clap] praise [clap] You [clap] with [clap] …
--- --- [W.L. motions the crowd to clap after song; handclapping folks imitate]
--- He Paid a Debt (Praise for the Lord, #859)
--- Lord, Be There (Praise & Worship, #46)
--- When I Survey the Wondrous Cross (#742)
--- Have You Seen Jesus My Lord?
--- Shout to the North (**sheet music available at the door)
=================================================


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
THE “CHURCH OF CHRIST” DOING THE CHARISMATIC IMITATION IN MUSICAL WORSHIP
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
There has been an extensive discussion of the music piece “Agnus Dei” as listed above. (cf. article: NO “Agnus Dei” SACRAMENTAL IN THE EARLY CHURCH [June 12 2003 at 1:06 PM] and other posts in the preceding thread, “What Happened This Week at Madison” [Archive #5].) Strangely, no one was clapping to “Shout to the North.” Know why? It was a new song that the Praise Team performed to the assembly—the noisemakers had not yet learned their programmed, rhythmical clapping to this jazzy song.

Please don’t be misled by most of the titles of the music pieces being performed at this contemporary assembly. Right—they may not be salvation issues, but what has happened to the worship of the Father “in spirit and in truth”? Reverence?!? Some of these songs do not convey the message of salvation. The way many of these songs are sung and with the exception of the occasional references to the spiritual, they RESEMBLE such songs as: “Yankee Doodle keep it up, Yankee Doodle Dandy, mind the music and the step….” Or, “For he’s a jolly good fellow … which nobody can deny.” Or, “And o’er the fields we go, laughing all the way. The bells on Bobtail ring, they’re making spirits bright, what fun it is to ride and sing a sleighing song tonight! Jingle bells! Jingle Bells! Jingle all the way!” Is it really necessary to clap to songs such as: “I Love the Lord Messiah” or “Great Is the Lord Almighty” or “O What a Glorious God” or “Worship the Lord with Gladness”?

What about real congregational singing? With the drama stage removed, the WORSHIP LEADER is still doing his own dramatic performances on stage. How much more attention does he really want and deserve from the audience? Brother Keith Lancaster, everyone knows about your very special musical talent. There is no need for you to prove anything anymore, dear brother. Frankly, you are (perhaps unknowingly) trying to share with and/or taking away the honor and glory that only our Father in heaven deserves. Let the congregation do the real singing again—not by or through your Praise Team, your soloist, your duet performers, your supporting hand clappers, your [wordless] humming or whatever else you’re doing on stage. Please don’t even initiate the handclapping activity or the applauding after a song by doing it yourself on stage or encourage this useless and annoying thing.

I believe we should give more consideration to Dr. White’s sermon on August 17, 2003 titled, “What Would It Take for You to Believe?” He said: “… We need to look at the evidence. I am afraid that too much of our religion has become so emotional, so feeling-oriented that we’ve lost the sense that God is real. And as a real God can be evidence … belief is substantiated not by some small, still voice in the night or some feeling I have in a moment, but by the same kind of evidence that supports the fact that this building stands because it’s built out of steel and brick….”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Donnie Cruz

Re: Were They Singing “Yankee Doodle Dandy” and “Jingle Bells”? August 29 2003, 6:18 AM

Please bookmark this segment of the “What Happened” thread. If you are a member of a congregation that is in disarray or experiencing confusion, division, change hysteria, etc.—please bring this to the attention of your leaders and gospel ministers. Coming soon is an article that will present additional soul-searching questions to church plans (such as the “new vision for Madison”), as well as ideas that will challenge where the true focus should be in the misdirected, misguided and misleading MUSIC-driven “worship programming” of the postmodern “gathering of the saints.” [“Where’s the beef?” … at the school of the Bible?]

Donnie Cruz

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS RE: THE NEW VISION AND MUSICAL WORSHIP
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It was earlier quoted that: “The shepherds are planning a new vision for Madison. They will be listening for awhile and then formulating what the Spirit leads them to envision for this church. Your prayers are earnestly solicited….

“We are blessed each week with an inspirational and uplifting worship service. The measure of that level is involvement. Join in the singing and connect your spirit with His. It will make a difference….”

A list of questions was presented following the quote. Those few questions were intended to bring awareness on the part of those being listened to and of those listening that the Madison church, as well as other congregations, is not over the hump by any means. It appears that, while quiet and union seem to be prevailing, there is NO UNITY IN DIVERSITY. Just what is going on? In reality, worship “style”—although predominant in scope—is not the only issue churches of Christ are confronted with as they try to SURVIVE amid the schemes of the change agents to subvert the church and pervert the truth. The following article by John H. Waddey presents a bigger picture of the problem confronting certain congregations of the church of our Lord. Please give serious thought to additional questions presented that are pertinent to the “new vision” being formulated for the congregation. Also, please take a look at the survey of favorite hymns and their places in today’s postmodern “MUSICAL WORSHIP PROGRAMMING.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
JUST HOW BADLY DO YOU WANT TO SEE CHRIST’S CHURCH SURVIVE?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[[[[[~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The church of our Lord Jesus is under a massive attack throughout the nation. This is no ordinary, run of the mill problem such as we have faced in times past. Not since the great apostasy of the late 1800s have we encountered a problem of this magnitude. After years of quietly infiltrating our schools and congregations, what has come to be known as the “change movement,” has now burst forth in full blossom. At least two of our most prominent schools and dozens of congregations, including many of the largest among us, have already been swept into this new heresy. Under attack is the very nature of the church (Are we truly the Lord’s church or are we just another human organization?); the nature and essence of our worship (Shall we worship with instruments of music and shall our communion be part of a common meal?); the leadership of the church (Shall women be allowed to preach and teach over men?); what constitutes one a Christian (Is baptism an essential aspect of one’s salvation or are we saved by grace through faith alone?); the nature and extent of our fellowship (Should we stand apart from churches founded by men or should we embrace them as Christian brethren?).

It takes no genius to understand that if these ideas finally prevail among our people we will have completely lost our identity and will cease to be in any sense the church of Christ. Clearly the threat is enormous. We know that there are many who want to see the above agenda successfully imposed on all our congregations. Without doubt there are thousands who are appalled at the temerity of those who would hold and teach views so diametrically opposed to the revealed will of God. The question is just how badly do we want to save the church from apostasy? Are we willing to pay the price necessary to accomplish this? Consider the following:

[] Do you care enough to pray fervently everyday that God will protect His church, that He will discomfit those who would harm her, that He will raise up a faithful band of soldiers to defend her walls and lead the way in restoring her to prosperity (II Cor. 11:28)?

[] Do you care enough to invest your time, energy and money in opposing this change movement and in promoting faithfulness to God’s Word? Are you willing to put your hands to the task and work to help salvage those around you (II Cor. 12:15)?

[] Do you care enough to spend time educating and informing yourself and the brethren where worship?

This is especially pertinent for those who preach:

[] Do you care enough to write, preach, teach and talk to every person exhorting them to hold fast the faithful word (II Tim. 4:2)?

[] Do you care enough to speak up and speak out against the false teaching and error when someone promotes it in your presence? Too many sit tongue-tied and mute while others articulate these concepts in Bible classes, sermons or conversations.

[] Do you care enough to work with others in combating the error? One soldier here and one there can easily be overrun, surrounded or driven from his post. But standing together, we become an unmovable force that can block the incursions of the enemies of the faith (Eccl. 4:9-12).

[] Do you care enough to tolerate the imperfections and different approaches of good men who uphold the sound doctrine of Christ; to be patient with varied opinions on lesser matters in order to win the greater victory over the true enemies of the church (Phil. :16-18)?

[] Do you care enough to help reclaim, restore and rebuild those disciples and congregations who have been led astray (Gal. 6:1)?

[] Do you care enough to reject those who are determined to abandon the Bible way (Rom. 16:17-18)? We cannot keep them in our midst and expect to keep the church loyal to the Master’s will.

The way you respond to these questions will reveal just how you really love the church for which Jesus died. I urge you to let your love and loyalty be manifested by your diligent service on behalf of Christ’s church in this hour of crisis. JHW
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]]]]]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
FAVORITE HYMNS
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[[[[[~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Religious columnist, George Plagenz, surveyed his readers as to their favorite hymns. From all kinds of churches and all across the nation, folks chose the following as their favorites:

[] “How Great Thou Art,”
[] “Amazing Grace,”
[] “In the Garden,”
[] “The Old Rugged Cross,”
[] “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God,”
[] “What a Friend We Have in Jesus,”
[] “Holy, Holy, Holy,”
[] “Just as I Am,”
[] “The Church’s One Foundation” and
[] “O Master, Let Me Walk with Thee.”

Plagenz observed that worshipers “prefer music of piety … their favorites tend to be hymns that speak to the emotions about a personal relationship with God or Christ.” They prefer “familiar, singable melodies.” “It is the old-fashioned hymns they want to sing.” Some younger people disparage old hymns and clamor for songs new and different. Some mistake that which is fun for that which is worship. While there is a place for new hymns, we must not neglect the old songs that link us to those who went before us as well as to the God we praise. JHW
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]]]]]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WHAT A MADISON MEMBER’S VISITING RELATIVES IN ATTENDANCE ARE SAYING ABOUT THE CONTEMPORARY WORSHIP. (You would not want to miss this upcoming report of their recent worship experiences and observations.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Donnie Cruz

“Do You Want to Worship Here?” was last Sunday’s sermon (August 31, 2003) delivered by Dr. C. Bruce White. One of the key points he made was whether or not the “worship service” is being conducted in such a way that a visitor would feel welcome and want to come back again. Even the issue of handclapping was specifically brought up in the course of the sermon.

In the afternoon following the contemporary worship assembly, I was privileged to visit a friend’s family—all attending Madison regularly. This friend’s sister and her husband, residents of Yuma (Arizona) and/or Tacoma (Washington) have been visiting Tennessee every couple of years since about 1987 and have worshipped at the Madison Church at every opportunity. In my conversation with the guests, the subject of “worship” was brought up and someone commented that the sermon was longer than usual (not complaining here), but substantive in that specific issues were brought up regarding clapping and the Lord’s Supper.

(A little background about the guests: They are members of the Berean Fellowship of Churches. [My research indicates that: “Formation of the Berean Fellowship of Churches dates back to the 1930's. In 1932 in North Platte, NE, a group of people dedicated to the study and application of the truth of the Bible began meeting together on a regular basis … people who were yearning for Bible-based ministries in their own communities began … Bible studies. Soon, groups were meeting in several towns. As those groups grew into churches, a Fellowship of Churches was born in 1947.”] Anyway, these folks have witnessed in their own fellowship the decline in membership because of changes made in their church’s worship programming, e.g., removing the church choir and replacing it with a “Christian rock band”—not quite the same as the drastic changes at Madison.)

The overall impression I got from these guests was that they have observed the obvious differences in the way that worship has been conducted at Madison through the years. It is quite difficult to relate how the conversation went. It wasn’t taped. So, I’m listing the highlights of their observations and experiences related to the contemporary worship period at Madison:

--- “We attend the 10:30 a.m. services at the Madison Church of Christ whenever we visit Tennessee every two or three years. We’ve been doing this since the late 80’s … since about 1987. The last visit prior to this one was in 2001. So, we’re quite familiar with the worship format and attendance—the changes that have gone on. Only a couple of years ago, it was still crowded up in the balcony. More so during the years before that … when we’d be out of breath climbing up the steps to find a place to sit. We remember when Nick Boone was the song leader—a humble person. The Boones [including Nick’s brother, Pat] are really nice folks. Everyone was singing when Nick Boone led those songs. We remember him not holding a microphone or even using one—well, he used a pitch pipe to get the song started. Congregational singing was wonderful.”

--- “It’s sad to see the numbers in worship decline. It’s unfortunate that the changes implemented in worship have a lot to do with this. Comparing what worship was in years past and how it is conducted now is like between night and day. It reminds us of what happened at our own Berean Fellowship in the early 90’s. Of course, we had a choir. The choir was part of our worship program. But also part of our worship was congregational singing. In our situation, the Christian rock band replaced the choir. There were also other changes, but all together our fellowship had not been the same since—many members left.”

--- The wife said, “I can’t believe it—they were singing ‘If you’re happy and you know it, clap your hands [clap! clap!] … stomp your feet [stomp! stomp!]’—that’s a kindergarten song.” [My explanation to her was that this is a children’s song when kids of a certain age group go to Canaan’s Land just prior to the sermon.] “But they had already sung a different ‘Clap Your Hands’ at the beginning of the service. Didn’t those kids already have their Sunday school? Why aren’t they learning to be with the rest of their families to worship together?”

Other comments from our guests regarding the WORSHIP LEADER and the PRAISE TEAM and the overall MUSIC program:

--- “If the hymnals are no longer used, why not give them or donate them to congregations which are in need of them—what a waste!”

--- “We’ve attended Pentecostal services. They do strange things, but at least they’re using the hymnals, so, we know what we’re singing.”

--- “The music director—he might as well be this rock star [sorry, I do not remember the name which the guest mentioned, dc]—there’s no difference between them when it comes to entertaining: it’s for the people, not for the Lord.”

--- “The music director is using the pulpit for his antics. His music leading is a ‘head’ job—not coming from the heart.”

--- “There was a song or two in which the music director did his lead part. It was really confusing as I was looking at the screen for the words he was singing by himself while the choir members were doing their thing—those words weren’t on the screen.”

--- “I noticed those folks clapping and at the same time hitting the back of the seats in front of them, making the drumming-like or some kind of instrument-like noise. It didn’t seem like reverence to me.”

--- “The Praise Team is really a choir—why not use a rock group to help lead singing? When there are practices involved, such as on Wednesday nights or at other times, it means that performance follows.”

--- “Just showing the words on the screen without the notes doesn’t mean a thing to me. Most of the songs today were not in the hymnal. I didn’t know them; I couldn’t sing them. I have a suggestion—karaoke! At least we’d know pretty well the tempo of the song with the ‘bouncing ball’ or as the words or syllables are being shaded.

--- “If congregational singing were to return, Nick Boone should come back. We want Nick Boone back.”

--- “Why not throw the microphones in the 'dunk tank' behind the pulpit so that real congregational singing can be heard—let the Praise Team sing just like everybody else. When there is a microphone, there is performance—without question!”

--- “If it weren’t for our relatives being members of the Madison Church, we wouldn’t be worshipping here: we could easily find somewhere else to worship.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Donnie Cruz

I take it the main purpose of this post was to try to convince people that Madison is somehow going to be using musical instruments in the place of the praise team. If not, that's how it came across.

The praise team practices to make sure they have the parts right. Their function is to provide the foundation of the notes for everyone else. Get that through your head. It's not a performance. The praise team is not a choir in the sense you're referring to. The dictionary says that a choir is "an organized company of singers". That's about as close as it gets -- they're organized to provide assistance during songs.

"When there is a microphone, there is a performance". It's an interesting point, especially since Nick Boone did indeed ALWAYS use a microphone. How do I know that? I've worked with the audio department for over 10 years now, so I've even hooked Mr. Boone's microphone up before. But I guess Mr. Boone doesn't count as a "performer" because he was "more reverent" than Mr. Lancaster is... or at least that's what you'd lead me to believe.

And why don't the children sit with their parents during the worship service? How about the scripture that talks about spiritual milk and how those that don't understand shouldn't have it shoved down their throats to make it even less understandable? I guess that doesn't apply here either. They go to their own class during the sermon to have a message delivered to them that they can understand. I only wish I had had something like that when I was younger. I had no idea what Brother Flatt was teaching as I was growing up, and I had a hard time sitting still, much less staying awake. To me, it's a good idea.

The hymnals are still in use; people have gotten so adjusted to the screen that they don't really even open them anymore. The "senior saints" (as you call them) know every word by heart, as well as many younger "saints", so I figure if they need to use the book, they can; if they don't, they just leave it.

I also find it befuddling that the people who claim to know what reverent worship is are the same ones that refer to the baptistry as the "dunk tank". To me, that's one of the worst things you can say. Referring to the pool of water that we claim to wash away sins as a county fair attraction is borderline blasphemous if you ask me. Perhaps these "visitors" should take a better look inside themselves before commenting on the services that they recently attended.

I agree with you annie, "Dunk Tank" is a rather harsh and really kind of a bad way to describe the baptistry.

Maybe if your praise team would "baptize" their microphones before each use, before too long the singing would have be more "from the heart" of the congregation, like it is supposed to be, and not an artificial substitution.

Mr. Bennett--

Sorry for using the "Anonymous" name. I usually let my Google toolbar fill in my information automatically, but I forgot to this time around. I'll take the responsibility of that post.

To Anonymous (September 3 2003, 1:39 AM ):

Your beginning paragraph stated: “I take it the main purpose of this post was to try to convince people that Madison is somehow going to be using musical instruments in the place of the praise team. If not, that's how it came across.” Where did you get this idea? Am I missing something here?

Pardon me, but you remind me of someone else [I know] who has posted articles numerous times before and who never fails to shield the Praise Team (and the USE OF ITS SERVICES) from “harm and danger.” But in case you didn’t know, part of the change agents’ subtle schemes is to give the “appearance” of not deviating too much—that group of singers should be called “Praise Team.” Admit it or not, in reality, the Praise Team is really the “Church of Christ Choir” in a congregation that has it and uses it—and it is a real shame that a supposedly congregation of the New Testament church would resort to such beautiful “sound effects” in order for “worship” to be acceptable to God. Real congregational singing does not need the Praise Team with their microphones performing to and for the assembly. Do you really expect God to listen to and make sure “the parts” are just right and perfect? Do you expect God to condemn a “monotone” singer? In fact, the Praise Team deters congregational singing as noted by the guests. (Going back to what you and I have discussed before, there is less congregational singing with the Praise Team overpowering and dominating. In fact, I failed to mention earlier what the guests had also said that only a few people in the balcony were singing.)

Whether or not Nick Boone used a microphone is not the issue. (Perhaps, the guests couldn’t see Mr. Boone’s “hooked up” microphone—you should be forgiving enough for their sight problem.) No, Mr. Boone’s microphone did not make him a performer. Nor did he use the stage to do his antics—I never had to worry about him falling off the stage, either.

Regarding the children of a particular age going to “Canaan’s Land” rather than being in the assembly with their families … is debatable in terms of what Proverbs 22:6 says—“Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it” or in terms of what psychologists have to say about a Christian family in a Christian assembly. Isn’t it a matter of Christian principle? By the way, why do you seem to be regretful that it was a missed opportunity for you when you were young … that brother Flatt bored you, that you were expected to understand it all?

The “pool of water” does not “wash away sins”—it is the blood of Christ that does remove sins when a repentant individual is immersed into the water and out to begin a new Christian life. There is nothing sacred about the baptistery. However, I agree with you that it is rather unpleasant to describe it as a “dunk tank.” I don’t think expressing it that way is proof that the guests were critical of or did not believe in the importance of baptism. To me, their key point was “throwing the microphones”—not the baptistery. Perhaps, the visitors were just confounded and upset by the recent changes made to “worship programming.” But, hey, you talk so much about the lack or absence of love as the issue of the day, instead of the change advocacies. Why should you treat the visitors the way you do just because of the comments they made?

Donnie Cruz

I find these visitor's comments extremely offensive. Why did they come to church? From their comments, it was not to worship the Lord. With their attitude, I would prefer these people to stay away. You are always talking about "outside people" coming in and causing trouble. What would this write-up be?

Donnie, You have become the resident "smut" reporter, so I don't guess it would do any good to ask you to leave also.

Member:

Did you listen to Dr. White’s sermon this past Sunday? If the guests reacted to the drastic changes in “worship programming” the way that they did, I don’t think it was their fault. It’s more like their changed “attitude” from favorable to unfavorable reflects the way “worship” has changed from one of reverence to that of holy fun and entertainment. I think the target of “introspection” should be directed to the way worship is being conducted—not to the guests’ attitude. Furthermore, where’s your welcoming attitude towards those visiting? So, you all keep saying: love, love, love. Where did it go this time?

Donnie

Donnie,
I seem to remember love being the greatest command. From all the posts you have placed here, I can't find a single one that displays a lot of love on your part. After re-reading your post and the one from "Big Red", I have come to the conclusion you made up the story about the visitors. If you did not, then your testimony is still hearsay. So let them come forward with their own story.
Along the same lines; just who are you, anyway. I've been searching Madison directories all the way back into the '70's and there is no mention of your name. Also, I asked around, and NO ONE seems to recall who you are. I propose this theory: Donnie sneaks in, retrieves a worship guide, buys a sermon tape, and makes up the rest. When I do find you, I'm going to ask you to leave. Politely, of course.

Member:

I seem to remember love being the greatest command, too. What a surprise! From all the posts you have placed here, I find you preaching love constantly. But I have yet to sense that love emanating from your very being to me, as well as to the guests. (I had asked you earlier about where your welcoming attitude and love towards those visiting went—you did not respond.)

Please don’t waste your precious time searching directories or asking others about me anymore. I’m convinced it won’t do you any good.

Donnie

Wow Donny you actually stayed after a church service to talk to someone. That's a first, and you sure do have a great gift of remembering conversations. I mean I wouldn't want you to have miss quoted someone, and have them upset at you. You are all knowing and wise, so I mean God must have given you that gift too. It's suprizing to me that when anyone tries to defend Madison or what it supports you just srug them off as hear say. And when asked questions that make you look bad you ignore them, or change the subject. Your worried about Madison as it stands with the Churchs of Chirst, when really what's always been the concern is where the heart of the members are. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, body, and mind. That's the greatest commandment, and if people are doing so then they are in great favor of God, because from that one law all the other laws fall into place. I hate to tell you this, but you're not the one to judge where anyone's heart is. So Madison does stuff a little different, if the C of C did everything the same with every church, and thought that one way is right, and everything else is wrong that would make them a cult or very close to it. I believe that those who are baptized, follow the law, and love God are truly pleasing in his sight. And you Donnie, don't know exactly what will and wont find favor in God. You continuly try to bring down fellow brothers in Christ in stead of saying Praise God for you are my brother. Just because something is different doesn't make it wrong. There are different churchs for different people. If everything was the same, Christ's church would be soo much smaller then it is today. It's some differences that draw people in to different congregations. Everyone is different, and all people are drawn to different things. Donnie you should find a church that best fits you, and leave these people alone. You waist such wonderful talents that God has blessed you with. Instead of helping people come to Christ, like the bible askes us to do, you are up in the balcony (not ever participating) taking notes and complaining. I tell you this as a brother with much love, leave and make better do with the talents that God has given you. You are just waisting them and hurting yourself here. It's not your place to be the jugde of what is right and what is wrong. That is up to God, and not you. It's people like you that give Church a bad rap. It's people like you that are caught up in your rules that made my mom decide to leave church. It was a loving church that got her to come back. I pray you find the light, and that you stray away from the place the devil has placed you in.

Big Red

“DO YOU WANT TO WORSHIP HERE”
(Sermon Delivered by: Dr. C. Bruce White on August 31, 2003, 8:00 A.M.)

==============================================================
ACKNOWLEDGMENTS: The following is an “unofficial” transcript from the taped sermon that was delivered by Dr. C. Bruce White at the 8:00 A.M. assembly. It is not only unofficial, but is also not in its entirety by intent—I wanted to bring up only segments pertinent to: (1) the Restoration Movement, (2) the observance of the Lord’s Supper being one of the issues in the church of Corinth, (3) tradition and the hand clapping issue, (4) the spiritual gifts, (5) singing [or the lack of it] and the use of instrumental music not any more of an error or in violation of the New Testament spirit than not singing. Please note that the segment on “clapping” in this tape may vary somewhat from that in the 10:30 A.M. tape as it is being addressed to two separate and contrasting audiences. When the second tape is available and time permits, I will try to provide in print that portion of the sermon in this thread. Again, this printed information is “unofficial” and acceptance and consideration of its accuracy is at your own discretion. Both tapes of the complete sermon from both services are available at the receptionist’s desk of the Madison Church of Christ (or upon request).
==============================================================

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[Paul’s concern about the church of Corinth …]

“… ‘If you people don’t get your act together over there, no one is going to worship with you….’ That consideration is alive today…. Paul was trying to awaken in those brethren at Corinth that to do that introspection of what is going on in your place. So, it causes us to do the same thing—to take a look at ourselves and ask: Is this what would attract people to worship the Lord…. We have called ourselves for a hundred or more years the Restoration church, i.e., we’re seeking to restore the worship of God in the New Testament as it was to our culture. But something that disturbs me in the Restoration is that we today seem to talk about it as if it was something that happened; that it’s a past event. And a lot of our people study the Restoration as a historical occurrence like Barton Stone and Alexander Campbell and those guys, and maybe as we get older, we start—the younger generation—start adding to that list like J. C. Brewer and N. B. Hardeman and so forth. But the Restoration is never a historical event. The Restoration Movement is a living vibrant movement…. And I want to make a statement to you that I am going to make it clearly, I hope, so that you will let it sink in as we’re talking today. I want you, if you can, to write this thing down and look at it again. I worked on it so, I think, it’s worded properly, and I want you to write it down, if you can. You need to keep this in mind: The hallmark of an authentic Restoration is not the uncritical repetition of old traditions, but the willingness to submit every tradition, however ancient, to fresh scrutiny and, if necessary, reform. As I study the Restoration Movement up to this point, I think that that particular thought process has waned. When the Restoration Movement began, it was alive. It was seeking to reform what was traditional and what was human into that which is spiritual and which is expressing the love of God and the expression of praise to God in the sense that the New Testament Christians had it. And as the years go by and we kind of solidify, we begin to form the same kind of traditions that those early restorers would have thought against. Because the one thing that the Holy Spirit of God cannot stand is a stagnant atmosphere in which there is no life. And so Paul was concerned about that with the church of Corinth….

“… In chapters 11 through 14 of First Corinthians … Paul is saying, you need to be concerned in your fellowship over there. You need to be concerned in your assembly because these things could form a crust around you that would present the living Spirit from being felt and people would not want to worship there. In I Corinthians 11, he begins by talking about propriety in worship, and he begins by talking about the disposition in prayer, and he is talking about in this disposition in prayer about how one appears in reference to prayer, and that was the first century expression in apparel and dress, and so forth. And he talks about women having a covering when they pray, and men not having a covering when they pray, and how that they need to be aware of that and need to follow that restriction in their prayer life. And he talks about a man should not have long hair because that’s designed by God as a woman’s covering. And so he says you need to pay attention to those things in your service, in your worship that would interfere or interrupt in your personal approach to God…. The attitude that one brings to worship is what Paul is talking about. The expression of praise to God in attitude…. Where do you want to worship? … I’ll take that joy and life and excitement every time. Paul goes on in verse 17-19 of chapter 11. He talks about the Lord’s Supper. He’s been talking about division and party spirits…. We can have differences of opinion; we can have differences in judgment; we can like or dislike things differently. We might enjoy one thing and another person might enjoy another thing, but we cannot afford to party ourselves around those things. You know, I may not like someone clapping at a song. That may not be in my comfort zone. And I may like to just kind of sit and sing a song, you know, as we sing it and not get animated with it. And it’s OK for me to hold that. But it’s not okay for me to get four or five other people and say, ‘Do you like them clapping to a song? I don’t like that. Do you like that? No, I don’t like that. O, good, come on with me, and let’s find somebody else that don’t like it, too. And let’s get us this bigger group as we can that don’t like it. And let’s just sit together and be miserable and not like it.’ And let me tell you, folks, you’ve just interfered with your worship. You cannot approach God with that kind of an attitude and spirit. And you may have interfered with someone coming to worship. I can like something better than you like it or I can dislike something that you like. But we don’t have to party up and begin to divide the body. And Paul warns against that because it is going to cause difficulty in your worship. Then he talks about the Lord’s Supper. And this is not just a meal like you have at home, and it’s not for the feeding of the flesh; it is a spiritual time with the Lord. And I tell you what: through the years I’ve been challenged with that. And I know what was going on in the first century, and you do, too. They were having the agape meal, and they just decided, well, if we are going to eat the Lord’s Supper, we’re going to eat the agape feast—why separate those? We’ll just wait till we have our agape meal; we’ll eat the Lord’s Supper there, too. And Paul says no, no, no; you distinguish between those. Well, we don’t have an agape meal like they did then. That’s the reason I parallel these things with us … that exact example. But we’ve got the principle there…. Are you in some other activity, you know, that is totally separate and apart, that’s material and physical and worldly and secular, while the Lord’s Supper is being partaken of? Don’t you thank God for worshipping at Madison where the Lord’s Supper is taken seriously? … And I know churches that literally time how quick they can serve the Lord’s Supper…. God is the God of all time and we’re not here to keep time. We’re to worship. And so our minds and hearts need to be centered there on the Lord’s Supper….

“… The division over gifts—fussing, and jealous and envious of each other about the spiritual gifts that were given by the Spirit … all those gifts come from the same Holy Spirit…. Celebrate each other’s gift.”

[At this point, Dr. White mentions examples of gifts as shepherding, speaking and leading singing. I’ll look again in the Bible to see about “leading singing,” and I’m assuming he means more than just a “song starter”—i.e., rather a “music director” or “WORSHIP LEADER”—the one that oversees the entire “worship” program or one that “calls” (mediates) everyone to the throne of God. He also has something to say about criticizing the same: the MUSIC PROGRAM, the preacher and the shepherds. He points out (and asserts that Paul does so in the middle of the discourse) that “love is the answer” to all these problems. He goes on to say that “prophecy” is not foretelling, predicting the future, but is “heralding or forth telling.” He talks about praying, then about singing, as quoted below. The rest of the sermon is not included in this transcript.]

“… ‘I will sing with my spirit and sing with my mind.’ O, this singing with zeal and teaching. Wednesday night, Keith brought to our attention that we are ‘to admonish one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.’ We’re singing a message to each other. We’re not just mocking words. When we’re singing these songs, we’re not just going through a ritual and some of you get so used to that you don’t even sing anymore. You just sit there. And I can’t find the passage that says what God wants is you to come into my house and sit there. The Spirit of God moves us. We sing with spirit. We sing with understanding. We admonish one another. We sing these songs in praise to God, and in teaching and encouragement to one another. You can’t do that just sitting there. And I tell you, I don’t want to hear anybody that does not sing in a worship service say anything about a group that plays in it. Because there is no more error in playing an instrument of music in worship service than there is in sitting and not singing. Amen? Both violate the spirit of the New Testament. So you see, you sing with vigor and zeal in teaching….”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Part of the sermon is printed above for the purpose of our studying some of the real issues that confront churches, including the Madison Church. Although there are other major issues, including certain serious doctrinal matters [thanks to the change agents and their schemes], I commend Dr. Bruce White for delivering this sermon and for his boldness and forthrightness in bringing specific issues to the attention of both assemblies. However, questions related to the subject of the Restoration Movement could be: (1) did its main objective have to do with “seeking to restore the worship of God in the New Testament” [Dr. White] OR with seeking to restore the New Testament church of our Lord as it was in the first century; (2) was it “seeking to reform what was traditional and … human into that which is spiritual and … in the sense that the New Testament Christians had it” [Dr. White] OR was it seeking to endeavor to denounce denominationalism and teach only that which the Holy Scripture teaches.

Really understanding the subject of the Restoration Movement and its specific objectives is very important and should make a good starting point of our study. If not, let’s discuss the specific issues—divisive and conflicting—confronting the Madison Church, as well as other congregations of the church of Christ.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Donnie Cruz

BRUCE WHITE: "… 'If you people don't get your act together over there, no one is going to worship with you….' That consideration is alive today…. Paul was trying to awaken in those brethren at Corinth that to do that introspection of what is going on in your place. So, it causes us to do the same thing—to take a look at OURSELVES and ask: Is this what would attract people to worship the Lord….

------------------------------

There is not a solitary hint that people should DO church in order to attract people to "worship with you." This is ALL part of the clergy SHELL GAME: the GOOD guys and the BAD guys play a game HOPING that you can be fooled into hiring them as MUSICAL WORSHIP MINISTERS or MISSIONARIES IN RESIDENCE. Never forget that Paul writing concerning PAY for the MANY while starving the honest EVANGELISTS is that "FOOLS LOVE TO BE FOOLED." Most churches are IN BED with the civil government which has decided that YOU MUST REFUSE TO HAVE THE MEMORY OF GOD IN YOUR HEART.

The solution is NOT to "take a look at ourselves": that is the INTROSPECTION which causes you to REPUDIATE THE BIBLE and "do what comes naturally." Mud wrestling would attract people to what is laughingly called "worship" but not to Jesus Christ of whom it was predicted that He would not "cry out" or call assemblies in the modern sense.

Jesus would build an ekklesia or synagogue: a school of the Bible and therefore a Discipling meeting. Paul repudiated RELIGION which was always pagan and charismatic and perverted. In Romans 15 he has a solution for the potential problems of DIVERSE RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE of the Orphics and Dionysics both which depended on charismatic music which was USED to bring on PROPHECY which was an "out of your mind" experience which Paul identified as MADNESS. This is related to the MANTIC arts which treated WOMEN as inspired in their uncovered prophesying (1 Cor 11:5) and acting like RAVING MANIACS (praise singing). NO ONE was inspired or prophesied FUTURE EVENTS while IN THEIR SENSES.

Paul told the Romans to act like CHRIST by non "pleasing themselves." I need to repeat some stuff. Paul OUTLAWED pleasing self as Jesus taught. Pleasing:

--PLEASE IS: Aresko (g700) ares'-Jo; prob. from 142 (through the idea of EXCITING EMOTIONS)
---AIR (g142) awry; a prim. verb; to LIFT; by imp. to take up or AWAY; fig. to RAISE THE VOICE, KEEP IN SUSPENSE the MIND

The BURDEN the UNLAWFUL CLERGY laded on and which Jesus Christ died to REMOVE was and is:

----PHORTIZO (g5412) for-tid'-zo; from 5414; to LOAD up.. figurative to OVERBURDEN with CEREMONIAL or SPIRITUAL ANXIETY.

And it is the TITHE to pay for something for which Jesus Christ DIED. You tithe and you repudiate the SACRIFICE of Christ and when you MUSICATE you repudiate the WORD of Christ and USE the GIFT of Lucifer or Satan "the harp-playing and singing prostitute."

.PHOROS (g5411) for'-os; from 5342; a load (as borne,) i.e. (fig.) a tax (prop. an individ. ASSESSMENT on persons or PROPERTY; whereas 5056 is usually a gen. toll on goods or travel): - tribute.

Jesus came to give REST which is the opposite of what we too often see as WORSHIP, but it rarely gives us real satisfaction. The laded burden which fits Paul's idea and which Jesus died to remove is the Greek:

....ANAPAUO (g373) an-up-ow'-o; from 303 and 3973; (reflex.) to REPOSE (lit. or fig. [be EXEMPT], remain); by imp. to REFRESH: - take EASE, refresh, (give, take) rest.

....PAU (g3973) pow'-o; a prim. verb ("pause"); to stop (trans. or intrans.), i.e. restrain, quit, desist, come to an end: - cease, leave, refrain.

Those Bruce White has DEMOTED to being SHEPHERDS were BISHOPS and their gift (Originally) was to be the ONLY Pastor-Teachers in the flock along with the DEACONS or MINISTERS who taught UNDER the Superentendants. The WOLVES have invaded and consumed the LIFE of the elders so that they can GNAW THE BONES of the lambs.

WITHOUT CONSIDERING THE RESTORATION MOVEMENT
"TRADITIONS" HERE IS THE DIRECT COMMAND OF PAUL for the ELDERS who are not, in Rubel Shelly's teachings SHEPHERDS OF THE MINISTERS who are the TRUE leaders:

.."Holding fast the faithful WORD as he hath BEEN taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. Titus 1:9

The SYNAGOGUE in Romans, like all Synagogues "HAD NO PRAISE SERVICE." The synagogue or CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS was forbidden to PLAY AND MAKE A JOYFUL NOISE BEFORE THE LORD because this was the WARRIOR'S CHANT and you don't NEED to emotionally MOLEST the assembly when they meet for TEACHING or looking to Jesus as the ONLY MASTER TEACHER. Jesus meets with you as the ONLY TEACHER to who YOU are a DISCIPLE and not a "musical or word mediator" ONLY if you let Him speak through His sermons and songs.

"For whatsoever things were WRITTEN AFORETIME were written for our LEARNING , that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. Rom 15:4
..Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another ACCORDING to Christ Jesus: Rom 15:5
...That ye may with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 15:6
...Wherefore RECEIVE ye one another, as Christ also received us, to the glory of God. Rom 15:7

Contrary to the MOCKING PHDS, you CAN all SPEAK THE SAME THINGS if you speak THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN. Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Songs are all INSPIRED by the SPIRIT OF CHRIST (1 Pe 1:11).

Bruce White and HIS "shepherds" DO NOT Know that the PRECEDENT of the Synagogue which Jesus attended was: "There was NO praise service in the Synagogue" because it was not a PAGAN WORSHIP CENTER but a school of the Bible and for PRAYERS "using that which was written" by the leader: others prayed in their CLOSETS and Jesus COMMANDED it to continued.

The DIRECT COMMAND is to "TEACH that which has been taught, that which is written, and Psalm, hymns and spiritual songs (ALL inspired Psalm titles). Their singing used about 4 notes in unison and were in the "lower register suited for the SPEAKING voice." The cultural 'SINGING' and MELODY were to be in the heart because the purpose was to TEACH and ADMONISH and not stroke the pleasure centers and cause you to GIVE HEED to the singy-clappy guys "outside of themselves."

Ken Sublett

Ken,

What was the principal objective or objectives of the Restoration Movement? Was one primary objective (according to Dr. White) “seeking to restore the worship of God in the New Testament as it was to our culture”? Or, was it seeking to restore the New Testament church as it was in the first century? What would the great men of the Movement have thought of the postmodern MUSICAL WORSHIP programming being so far removed from the Word-centered assembly of the early Christians?

Donnie

Donnie, I will look at this one further in the morning. I can tell you this: all of the MERRY BAND who has deliberately set out to destroy the church of the Restoration movement. They do not hesitate to use the GUILT CLAUSE which is as follows:

The first organ was put into a church in Midway Ky by the preacher who was a CERTIFIABLE LIBERAL. An elder and a slave took the organ out during the night. The HIRELING had it replaced. Others added organs and choirs and drove many of the members away. Those who LEFT for a non-pagan church were accused of SOWING DISCORD. To not mince words, this is a lie and Jesus said that the Devil "speaks on his own."

However, John Calvin called his movement a RESTORATION movement and truly partly restored baptism by REMOVING all of the pagan practices which ASSISTED God. The Reformation "restoration" cast the organs out just as Jesus cast out the musical minstrelsy--just like Dung.

The Lord's Supper was stripped of much of its pagan superstition. A FUNDAMENTAL restoration was to CAST OUT the non-functional idols called CLERGY and they supported only evangelists. And on and On. For now, I will quote some WHITE STUFF:

"We have called ourselves for a hundred or more years the Restoration church, i.e., we're seeking to restore the worship of God in the New Testament as it was to our culture.

I will speak gibberish for half of his unlawful wage.

--IF WE DIDN'T KNOW THERE WAS SOME HEGELING going on we would translate that statement in Lucadoism:

"Kalla ma sone, da fa kooka shores. It kin da la key la shone da la kene."

WHITE STUFF AGAIN: "But something that disturbs me in the Restoration is that we today seem to talk about it as if it was something that happened; that it's a past event."

Bruce White is not going to find any Biblical or Historical evidence to RESTORE tithing or MUSICAL IDOLATRY TEAMS. However, NARRATIVE THEOLOGY gives the unlawful clergy the right to TAKE LIBERTIES. What you will find is that the LINGO of the entire band is quite identical: The non-instrumental churches of Christ created everything from the FALL to BAD BREATH.

By hitting and running these people who truly seem Biblically and historically illiterate (why else could they get hired?) begin with Machiavelli then Hitler then Gramsci as restored communism, then Hegel and then end with some of our WIND NAVIGATORS.

By throwing little hand grenades with slight of hand they do the DAMAGE intended to use Anderson's PRAYERFUL BRINKMANSHIP and STILL keep from getting fired. Someone will ask: "Since we believed that the RM helped continue a century old effort, then WHY are we paying someone an UNLAWFUL wage to destroy what we hired him to defend?" But, then, the BODY did not hire the unlawful STAFF INFECTION and the ELDERS neither have the knowledge nor authority to "hire a monkey to pull their nuts out of the fire."

More later.

Ken

Dear Big Red (Post Dated September 4 2003, 2:27 AM):

Thank you for your compacted analysis and evaluation of me. You brought up matters that were either “common knowledge” in nature (loving God, letting God be the judge, etc.) or the same old accusations against me. That’s fine. But some of your remarks are of interest to me:

===================================================
BIG RED TO DONNIE:
===================================================
It’s surprising to me that when anyone tries to defend Madison or what it supports, you just shrug them off as hearsay. … You’re worried about Madison at it stands with the churches of Christ, when really what’s always been the concern is where the heart of the members are. … So, Madison does stuff a little differently. If the Church of Christ did everything the same with every church, and thought that one way is right, and everything else is wrong, that would make them a cult or very close to it. … And you, Donnie, don’t know exactly what will and won’t find favor in God. You continually bring down fellow brothers in Christ instead of saying, Praise God for you are my brother. Just because something is different doesn’t make it wrong. There are different churches for different people. If everything was the same, Christ’s church would be so much smaller than it is today….”
===================================================

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DONNIE TO BIG RED:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I honestly think that you are not looking at the big picture. You’ve been blinded by “religious” movements that are secular-oriented and culture-driven. The fact is that churches of Christ across the land are under siege. Because of the size of the Madison congregation, it is no exception as one of the favorite targets of subversion. What you don’t see is that those “who appear to you” to be defending Madison, unbeknownst to them, are really defending the proponents of the Change Movement and its cause. The change agents (and they’re proud of referring to themselves as such) have subtle schemes to divert the church from its scriptural foundation and to pervert the truth. And here’s one little voice coming from Donnie Cruz, really trying to defend Madison [would you be willing to accept that for a change?] from further conquest by these truth perverts. I have nothing against the Madison body or against the “regular” members of the body, like you and me, or I would have already left. But I might add that I honestly cannot bring myself to tell someone, “Praise God for you are my brother,” when I and many others know fully well that this brother has alienated other brethren and has caused havoc and division in the church—and still continues to do so!!!!

I really do understand differences among congregations—they are to be expected and have been in existence—and that is not the issue. And it’s more than just that “Madison does stuff a little differently.” The seriousness of the problems confronting Madison and other leading congregations goes a lot deeper than that, as these prominent congregations in the brotherhood have been or are being targeted for transformation from their scriptural foundation to whatever else that would not even bear a resemblance to the New Testament church that Christ established—in some of its doctrine, beliefs and practices.

We must recognize the fact that what the change agents are doing, especially in the realm of “improving upon God’s will for the church,” are inflicting damage upon the body of Christ—confusion, alienation and division. These are the folks, with their newly discovered or imitated human doctrines and beliefs, that the church must guard itself against. It is my hope and prayer that the elders of any congregation have a better grasp of the propensity of a church being victimized and of the magnitude of the problems confronting congregations of the church. After all, it is their responsibility as shepherds to take care of the flock from grievous wolves. If not, they will have to answer before God.

Finally, would you please explain your final remark: “that you [Donnie] stray away from the place the devil has placed you in”? I’d like to think that I know myself. I know that the devil is alive and well. I also know that what the change agents are doing to the body of Christ is the work of the devil. But just where is THE PLACE that the devil has PLACED DONNIE IN?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Donnie

Donnie if you have a problem with the church being changed because of culture why do you meet in a building, sit on pews, use song books, A/C, lighting, etc. The first churches, as you so want Madison to be like, didn’t have such things, and indeed were changed by culture. As it says in 1 Corinthians 11:5-6 { ( 5.) And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head - it is just as though her head were shaved. ( 6.) If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut shaved off, she should cover her head. }, why aren’t we still abiding by this rule? Could it be that the culture has changed it’s original meaning? Do you wish to go back to these ways? I mean I guess not, because of all your arguments about what is “wrong” with Madison that sure hasn’t been one of them, but that is how the first church was, and that was changed due to culture. I mean by no means would you be a hypocrite for not wanting everything to go back to the way it was before culture took role. I mean if you want some of the traditions to go back why not all of them?

To quote you, Donnie, from your response you said “I have nothing against the Madison body or against the “regular” members of the body, like you and me, or I would have already left.” First off you are no member of the Madison congregation. As quoted from an actual member of the congregation on this very site “ just who are you (Donnie), anyway. I've been searching Madison directories all the way back into the '70's and there is no mention of your name. Also, I asked around, and NO ONE seems to recall who you are”. How are you even a “concerned member” when you aren’t even apart of the congregation? You aren’t even apart of the body. You do NOTHING to support the congregation, except bicker and whine. Which fruit of the spirit would that one be? Hmm.. wait it isn’t one. No where in Romans 12:4-8 is your “gift” listed as being apart of the church body, and that’s the very reason why you aren’t apart of the Madison church body. If you were a member you would also actually worship with your church family. Instead of secluding yourself to a corner to take notes. Second, if you are against certain leaders of the congregation then you are against the congregation, because the congregation is a body. If you are against one part you are against the body. So don’t say you are for the congregation, when you really aren’t.

Also the heading of the Topic is “What Happened At Madison This Week”, if you truly cared for the church then why is it that you only put the negative in your weekly report. You don’t even mention when someone has been baptized, which as a christian you should hold to a high and great respect and honor. Instead you cry because the church sings a song that you aren’t familiar with, or that they clap too much (by the way how do people that are “around“ you bother you with their clapping when you don‘t sit by anyone? Fact being, most of the “clappers“ are sitting way below you.), etc. Is your heart really with God, or are you just caught in rules and getting it “right”? It sure seems like you’re caught up in the rules. Which brings me to just where the devil has placed you, Donnie. He’s put you in a place where you are just doing yourself, and the congregation of Madison more harm then helping them. As I stated before you have great gifts that God has given you, and yet you let them go to waist. As Mathew 27:19-20 says, “( 19.) Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ( 20.) and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you...”. Last I checked it’s kind of hard to be bringing people to Christ when all you are doing is arguing with a church, and helping to give people a reason to not attend church or to make Christ’s church look bad. If you have a problem with something then talk to someone about it. You don’t post a website to cry about it on. Do you honestly think that anyone is going to take you seriously on here? You are wasting your time with this, and the devil appreciates your ignorance in wasting your time, and hurting Gods kingdom. Bottom line is that you are in this to be right and to get your way. Until that happens you will not leave Madison alone. Take for example when a fellow brother, Chad, tried to ask you why you were doing what you are doing with the Madison church. You just ignored his questions calling them “hmm.. like Questions” when in fact the questions he asked were very valid. And when you tried to answer some of his other question they were totally off topic and made little to no sense. You knew he had caught you, and he knew what you really were, and you couldn’t prove otherwise. In fact I found it very interesting that as Chad was pinning you in a corner the wonderful and mysterious Ms. X appeared with such a pathetic post. So pathetic that it had to have been made up (for instance it appeared on the site right when Chad was making you look bad. If Ms. X had such a horrible worship time with Madison, who and why would she look up a web site to cry to instead of making her complaints to people at Madison itself? I know if I didn’t like a congregation I would just not attend it again, and if it really bothered me I would tell someone at the church, and not scope out a web site bashing the congregation. And, overall it was written very cheesy and by someone making stuff up as they went along.) , and boy you ate that right up and tired to draw the attention away from Chad pinning you in that corner. When it didn’t, and Chad got to the bottom line of everything, which is you just don’t like Madison. You don’t like Keith Lancaster, the elders, the songs that are sung, etc.

I honestly don’t even know why you have chosen Madison to pick on and whine about. There are several other congregations in the Nashville area that are much much much more “liberal” in their ways. In fact I attend a C of C on Wed. nights that has a musical instrument service, and it’s the best C of C I’ve been to in my life. Never before have I felt such a strong presence of God in worship. And that was through the people that attend there. They pretty much have already achieved this “change” that you are trying to stop Madison from going through. Much prayer and thought went into their “changing”, and God has been very supportive of it, and if not they wouldn’t have even “changed” and the “change“ wouldn‘t be going as well as it is. That congregation that I attend on Wed. night is the only C of C that I have honestly felt loved in to the point where when they ask if someone needs prayers for their sins I’m more then willing to walk down and just spill my beans to them all. Why, because of the love they show me each time I visit. I know they will not judge me, but sit, pray, and cry with me. For the last time you are a waist in the position you’re in right now, and that’s why you have been placed there by the devil.

I can’t believe you can’t even say “thank God for you are my brother” to a fellow christian at Madison. 1 Peter 4:8 “( 8.) Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins”. John 13:34-35 “( 34.) A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. ( 35.) By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another”. Even if fellow brother in Christ does stuff differently you should still be thankful that he is a member of Christ’s church and is saved from sin. And, if it is a brother lost in sin, then hate the sin and not the person. NO matter what you should always thank God for someone being in Christ. Yet again I question where your heart is? Certainly God rejoices that he is a fellow brother, and yet you can’t. Are you better then God, or did I miss something? Because with a comment like that you sure perceive yourself to be better then him.

I still pray for you Donnie. As my fellow brother I care about you very much. I don’t want to see you hurt yourself anymore. I love you brother, and I hope that you will see the light. God bless.

Big Red

BRUCE WHITE DIVERTING FROM THE TOPIC: "In I Corinthians 11, he begins by talking about propriety in worship, and he begins by talking about the disposition in prayer, and he is talking about in this disposition in prayer about how one appears in reference to prayer, and that was the first century expression in apparel and dress, and so forth.

...."And he talks about women having a covering when they pray, and men not having a covering when they pray, and how that they need to be aware of that and need to follow that restriction in their prayer life.

BIG RED DITTO: "Donnie if you have a problem with the church being changed because of culture why do you meet in a building, sit on pews, use song books, A/C, lighting, etc. The first churches, as you so want Madison to be like, didn't have such things, and indeed were changed by culture. As it says in 1 Corinthians 11:5-6 { ( 5.) And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head - it is just as though her head were shaved. ( 6.) If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut shaved off, she should cover her head. }, why aren't we still abiding by this rule? Could it be that the culture has changed it's original meaning?

KEN: This is the BAIT AND SWITCH:

First Premis (false) they wore VEILS in the Corinthians churches;

Second Premise: Donnie doesnt wear a hat.

Conclusion: Donnie cannot object to CHOIRS and INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC. (The first ammendment is still alive and well)

The fact, Big Red, if you were as interested in God and His WORD as you are in getting YOUR SHARE of SELF AFFIRMATION you would know that from beginning to the end in Revelation 18 singers and musicians are MOVED by Satan and all names of instruments and musical terms are VALIDATED by YOURSELF: they always said to God, "We WILL NOT hear from your Word or your prophets."

You would also know that the synagogues where Jesus attended had a PULPIT and PEWS. The high ceiling with a balcony, fairly well AIR CONDITIONED the building. Jesus STOOD UP to read the WORD which supported the SCROLLS and NOT the preacher. Then He had the decency to SIT DOWN in real PEWS. He may have had a FAN from the closest palm tree.

Paul never COMMANDED that women should submit to a hair length before either private or public prayer.

"Judge in yourselves: is it comely (that she tower up) that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 1 Cor 11:13
....Doth not even NATURE itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 1 Co.11:14

NATURE means natural production, lineal descent, Native Disposition. Paul said NOTHING about God or LAWS of church attendance. NOTHING!!

"But IF a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given h