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September 6 2003 at 9:50 PM
Kenneth Sublett  (no login)
from IP address

This sermon is very telling and deserves a separate link to keep from getting lost. If this can be restricted to sermon reviews perhaps it will be more readable. Therefore, I am reposting my first response to Donnie's partial post of last week's sermon. The question was abut making people WANT TO WORSHIP WITH US:


No, not on your life: I worship God September 4 2003, 12:16 PM

BRUCE WHITE: "… 'If you people don't get your act together over there, no one is going to worship with you….' That consideration is alive today…. Paul was trying to awaken in those brethren at Corinth that to do that introspection of what is going on in your place. So, it causes us to do the same thing—to take a look at OURSELVES and ask: Is this what would attract people to worship the Lord….


There is not a solitary hint that people should DO church in order to attract people to "worship with you." This is ALL part of the clergy SHELL GAME: the GOOD guys and the BAD guys play a game HOPING that you can be fooled into hiring them as MUSICAL WORSHIP MINISTERS or MISSIONARIES IN RESIDENCE. Never forget that Paul writing concerning PAY for the MANY while starving the honest EVANGELISTS is that "FOOLS LOVE TO BE FOOLED." Most churches are IN BED with the civil government which has decided that YOU MUST REFUSE TO HAVE THE MEMORY OF GOD IN YOUR HEART.

The solution is NOT to "take a look at ourselves": that is the INTROSPECTION which causes you to REPUDIATE THE BIBLE and "do what comes naturally." Mud wrestling would attract people to what is laughingly called "worship" but not to Jesus Christ of whom it was predicted that He would not "cry out" or call assemblies in the modern sense.

Jesus would build an ekklesia or synagogue: a school of the Bible and therefore a Discipling meeting. Paul repudiated RELIGION which was always pagan and charismatic and perverted. In Romans 15 he has a solution for the potential problems of DIVERSE RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE of the Orphics and Dionysics both which depended on charismatic music which was USED to bring on PROPHECY which was an "out of your mind" experience which Paul identified as MADNESS. This is related to the MANTIC arts which treated WOMEN as inspired in their uncovered prophesying (1 Cor 11:5) and acting like RAVING MANIACS (praise singing). NO ONE was inspired or prophesied FUTURE EVENTS while IN THEIR SENSES.

Paul told the Romans to act like CHRIST by non "pleasing themselves." I need to repeat some stuff. Paul OUTLAWED pleasing self as Jesus taught. Pleasing:

--PLEASE IS: Aresko (g700) ares'-Jo; prob. from 142 (through the idea of EXCITING EMOTIONS)
---AIR (g142) awry; a prim. verb; to LIFT; by imp. to take up or AWAY; fig. to RAISE THE VOICE, KEEP IN SUSPENSE the MIND

The BURDEN the UNLAWFUL CLERGY laded on and which Jesus Christ died to REMOVE was and is:

----PHORTIZO (g5412) for-tid'-zo; from 5414; to LOAD up.. figurative to OVERBURDEN with CEREMONIAL or SPIRITUAL ANXIETY.

And it is the TITHE to pay for something for which Jesus Christ DIED. You tithe and you repudiate the SACRIFICE of Christ and when you MUSICATE you repudiate the WORD of Christ and USE the GIFT of Lucifer or Satan "the harp-playing and singing prostitute."

.PHOROS (g5411) for'-os; from 5342; a load (as borne,) i.e. (fig.) a tax (prop. an individ. ASSESSMENT on persons or PROPERTY; whereas 5056 is usually a gen. toll on goods or travel): - tribute.

Jesus came to give REST which is the opposite of what we too often see as WORSHIP, but it rarely gives us real satisfaction. The laded burden which fits Paul's idea and which Jesus died to remove is the Greek:

....ANAPAUO (g373) an-up-ow'-o; from 303 and 3973; (reflex.) to REPOSE (lit. or fig. [be EXEMPT], remain); by imp. to REFRESH: - take EASE, refresh, (give, take) rest.

....PAU (g3973) pow'-o; a prim. verb ("pause"); to stop (trans. or intrans.), i.e. restrain, quit, desist, come to an end: - cease, leave, refrain.

Those Bruce White has DEMOTED to being SHEPHERDS were BISHOPS and their gift (Originally) was to be the ONLY Pastor-Teachers in the flock along with the DEACONS or MINISTERS who taught UNDER the Superentendants. The WOLVES have invaded and consumed the LIFE of the elders so that they can GNAW THE BONES of the lambs.

"TRADITIONS" HERE IS THE DIRECT COMMAND OF PAUL for the ELDERS who are not, in Rubel Shelly's teachings SHEPHERDS OF THE MINISTERS who are the TRUE leaders:

.."Holding fast the faithful WORD as he hath BEEN taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. Titus 1:9

The SYNAGOGUE in Romans, like all Synagogues "HAD NO PRAISE SERVICE." The synagogue or CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS was forbidden to PLAY AND MAKE A JOYFUL NOISE BEFORE THE LORD because this was the WARRIOR'S CHANT and you don't NEED to emotionally MOLEST the assembly when they meet for TEACHING or looking to Jesus as the ONLY MASTER TEACHER. Jesus meets with you as the ONLY TEACHER to who YOU are a DISCIPLE and not a "musical or word mediator" ONLY if you let Him speak through His sermons and songs.

"For whatsoever things were WRITTEN AFORETIME were written for our LEARNING , that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. Rom 15:4
..Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another ACCORDING to Christ Jesus: Rom 15:5
...That ye may with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 15:6
...Wherefore RECEIVE ye one another, as Christ also received us, to the glory of God. Rom 15:7

Contrary to the MOCKING PHDS, you CAN all SPEAK THE SAME THINGS if you speak THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN. Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Songs are all INSPIRED by the SPIRIT OF CHRIST (1 Pe 1:11).

Bruce White and HIS "shepherds" DO NOT Know that the PRECEDENT of the Synagogue which Jesus attended was: "There was NO praise service in the Synagogue" because it was not a PAGAN WORSHIP CENTER but a school of the Bible and for PRAYERS "using that which was written" by the leader: others prayed in their CLOSETS and Jesus COMMANDED it to continued.

The DIRECT COMMAND is to "TEACH that which has been taught, that which is written, and Psalm, hymns and spiritual songs (ALL inspired Psalm titles). Their singing used about 4 notes in unison and were in the "lower register suited for the SPEAKING voice." The cultural 'SINGING' and MELODY were to be in the heart because the purpose was to TEACH and ADMONISH and not stroke the pleasure centers and cause you to GIVE HEED to the singy-clappy guys "outside of themselves."

Buy request, my next bit will discuss the Restoration Movement which MUST be destroyed if people are going to be able to IMPROVIZE their own new POST MODERN "bible"

Ken Sublett

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Kenneth Sublett
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Sermon Review: Restoration Movement

September 7 2003, 5:45 PM 

Donnie: What was the principal objective or objectives of the Restoration Movement? Was one primary objective (according to Dr. White) "seeking to restore the worship of God in the New Testament as it was to our culture"? Or, was it seeking to restore the New Testament church as it was in the first century? What would the great men of the Movement have thought of the postmodern MUSICAL WORSHIP programming being so far removed from the Word-centered assembly of the early Christians?

I have read the paragraph from the sermon:

BRUCE WHITE: We have called ourselves for a hundred or more years the Restoration church, i.e., we're seeking to RESTORE the worship of God in the New Testament as it was to OUR CULTURE.

That would be like having an ancient Rolls Royce. So here are two options for the slow group:

First option: we RESTORE the Rolls JUST AS IT WAS WHEN IT ROLLED off the line even searching out missing parts.

Second Option: We put a Chevy engine in it, Modern Light bulbs, add a radio and a fox tail on the antenna, Naugahide (sp) upholstry and paint it metallic pink.

I THINK that Bruce White is suggesting that we RESTORE the church to LOOK LIKE IT IS just off the Saddle Back.

Because CHURCH is synagogue or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE where Paul's unique WORSHIP word means "TO GIVE HEED." One gives heed when reading and discussing the Bible AS IT HAS BEEN TAUGHT. One also GIVES HEED to the death and agony of Christ if we participate with Him in singing or "grieving out" in the assembly for His suffering for OUR sins. The part about RESTORING New Testament worship as it was to OUR CULTURE sounds like a recent Rubel Shelly and John York sermon:

"Work out your own salvation" is translated to OUR CULTURE to mean that the olden people kinda worked with the Holy Spirit to WORK OUT their own religion. However, now, as Bruce White SEEMS to be saying, we live in a DIFFERENT CULTURE. Therefore, we have to WORK OUT our own, as the say "Narrative" by "taking liberties" with the olden system. Shelly actually claims that we kinda partner with the Holy Spirit and derive a religion which SUITS our own culture.

It seems to me that the preacher knows nothing about the Restoration Movement which has always been going on. At one time it RESTORED the Staff Infection to the Mission field or to the unemployment agency according to John Calvin.

I think we need not get bogged down in the double-speak but DISCERN what is being said. For instance, Mike Armour along with Sites etal would say:

"Mike Armour: Looking back at the twentieth century, the a cappella Churches of Christ present one of the great ironies of American religion. A Bible-believing people, aggressively evangelistic for most of our history, we have always described ourselves as eager for Christian unity. [But NOT UNION]

....Yet, by mid-century the BROADER religious community saw us as exclusivists, thoroughly isolated from our spiritual neighbors.

....Nor could we hold ourselves out as a model of unity, for we constantly struggled with our own POLARIZING divisions.

You cannot HOLD to unity when the INSTRUMENTAL SECTARIANS decide to INCLUSIVE choirs and organ and organists at $5,000.00 even in the 1860s. The history of men like J. W. McGarvey shows that even HE had to be SHUT UP or SHUT OUT of his own pulpit. Those were evil, witching days when the carpetbagging northern church went South to even sign up little children to LIFE MEMBERS in the society which INTENDED to include "ALL OF CHRISTENDOM." That means, a world-wide denomination. One of the MARKS was to first force, even in courts, instruments into otherwise peaceable churches.

There are about 3 major divisions out of the Restoration Movement (excluding Mormonism and Christadelphians). After the burning times of witchcraft and later Awakenings among the Baptists Gnostics, about 321 MAJOR DIVISIONS resulted. Most of these were Baptists. Today, someone counts 146 major DENOMINATIONS of Baptists whereas the non-instrumental church of Christ has NO denominational organization. None of Mike Armour's Disciples Denomination friends would INCLUDE you in the sense of letting you take a leading role. So, this is just plain DISHONEST.

Mike Armour is STATING AS FACT that Baptists do not EXCLUDE others from leading in their group: anyone will take up collections from anybody.

Mike Armour: The non-instrumental position depended
..ENTIRELY on historical PRECEDENT from the FIRST century
....and on INFERENCES drawn from the HANDFULL of Biblical passages that mention MUSIC in the early church.

Of course, that is a blatant lie. Any literate Bible student knows that music as the weapon of Satan or Lucifer the "harp-playing prostitute" began in heaven where Satan tried to USURP the role of God and BLEED OFF worship for HERSELF. As ZOE, she was the "mother" of Jehovah who was forced into forming musical worship teams to worship WHOM? Why Sophia the "serpent" and Zoe the "beast and female instructing principle."

There are no passages which mention MUSIC in the early Church. For the slow group, the direct command was to TEACH "that which was written, the Spirit or the Word of Christ." Whatever their singing (ado) method it was something which FACILITATED teaching the text. The only history shows that they taught one another the Biblical Psalms.

The end-time HARLOT CHURCH will be overflowing with commerce, rhetoricians, musicians, instrumentalists and, of course, harlots. Harlot are those who SELL their body for a price. We have noted that the primary SECTS Jesus condemned were "Scribe (book writers), Pharisees (doctors of the law, prayed for a fee) and HYPOCRITES.

The SECT of the Hypocrites included "rhetoricians, sophists (Opis the serpent), singers, actors and musicians." They were known as SORCERERS or SOOTHSAYERS and were identified as PARASITES. A fluteIST or guitarIST along with all of the CARNAL CRAFTS were identified as PARASITES.

This is the same Mike Armour with Jimmy Sites who led to the FOUNDING and SIGNING of the CONFESSION or APOLOGY to the Disciples for having SOWED DISCORD because they INTRODUCED choirs and instruments to ATTRACT the SEEKERS. We were evil because we refused to accompany them into the retrograde back into paganism.

More Restoration Basics. This is the CORE Hegeling. Lynn Anderson actually teaches PRAYERFUL BRINKMANSHIP. You FIRST have to destroy ANY confidence that the earlier scholars did ANYTHING good. After you have everyone floating around in the musical haze, you teach them the NEW REVELATIONS for the NEW CULTURE. That a way you RESTORE the Jerusalem Temple by making it out of fiber glass.

Ken Sublett

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September 7 2003, 9:11 PM 


"… 'I will sing with my spirit and sing with my mind.' O, this singing with zeal and teaching. Wednesday night, Keith brought to our attention that we are
'to ADMONISH one another in PSALMS and HYMNS and SPIRITUAL songs.'

Ken: There is no doubt about the RESOURCES for singing: Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs (inspired) are ALL types of the Book of Psalms in the Greek Translation. In defining the SYNAGOGUE in Romans 15 Paul expressed it differently: "Glorify God with ONE MIND (Spirit) and ONE MOUTH" using "that which is written." Silly chants DO NOT teach a single thing. If they DO then why can't I LEARN by just listening? Perhaps if you will get a song LEADER instead of a WORSHIP LEADER (a blasphemy) the people will join in again. Sure would save you some money.

WHITE: We're singing a message to EACH OTHER. We're not just mocking words. When we're singing these songs, we're not just going through a ritual and some of you get so used to that you DON'T EVEN sing ANYMORE.

Ken: Yes you are: you later define singing as a LAW. You need to grasp that people DON'T SING because they DON'T agree with you. THEY are right and YOU are wrong. Therefore, they are VOTING with their voices as the rest voted with their FEET. Why don't you change? I can tell you that the UNIVERSAL message of the Bible and contemperaneus literature such as the BOOK OF ENOCH, once you have been suckered by Satan into attempting to worship a SPIRIT god with UNHOLY music, you have FALLEN AND YOU CANNOT GET BACK UP.

From the huge exodus each time the NEW STYLE "VINEYARD" worship is FORCED by INFILTRATING and DIVERTING, bright fellas, be a SIGN that the spiritual members see something HORRIBLY WRONG AND DISGUSTING. But Satan wins because he exhibits GREAT SIGNS AND WONDERS.

But, WE are singing silly, erotic praise songs which destroys the manly fiber of the church. WE are violating a direct command that we TEACH ONE ANOTHER. There is NO TEACHING in the singy-clappy juvenile songs. In fact, the creation of SPIRITUAL ANXIETY Jesus died to remove as a LADED BURDEN absolutely makes it impossible to TEACH and LEAn "that which is written."

WHITE: YOU JUST SIT THERE. And I can't find the passage that says what God wants is you to come into my house and SIT THERE.

KEN: Musical instruments were almost universally, even in the deepest jungles, believed to be the HOUSE or the VOICE of the "gods" or "divining demons" which lived inside. The Catholic church even baptized bells and organs and gave them names. However, there IS A LAW:

"Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. Hab 2:19
..But the Lord is in his HOLY TEMPLE: let all the earth keep SILENCE before him. Hab 2:20


IT SOUNDS LIKE BRUCE-KEITH HAVE BEEN VOTED DOWN and Bruce thinks a heavy hand will work. It will not: it will gross worse and worse.

Maybe they are sending YOU a message because you cannot find a passage which says that God wants us to come to His house. He wants us to ASSEMBLE "outside the camp" which is the only place HE will meet you.

The ASSEMBLY directly REPUDIATES anything which arouses excitement or PLEASURE (Rom 15) which also says to GLORIFY GOD WITH ONE MIND AND ONE VOICE USING "THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN." People are BRIGHT enough to understand the meaning of REVERENCE and they may feel their souls in danger ins uch an environment.

Ken Sublett

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Kenneth Sublett
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The SPIRIT is not CHARISMATI in the sermon

September 8 2003, 12:18 PM 

WHITE: The Spirit of God MOVES us. We sing WITH SPIRIT. We sing with understanding. We admonish one another. We sing these songs in praise to God, and in teaching and encouragement to one another.


KEN:Apparently the "spirit" is moving us less and less as people catch on to the false teaching and false singing. Scholars agree: PAUL NEVER USES "SPIRIT" IN THE SENSE OF A THIRD PERSON. The "spirit" is the Spirit OF something. Paul's context was the SPIRIT or MIND or INNERMOST being is in conflict with the FLESH. The ECHOING or reverberating form of singing which brings on CLAPPING is an assault on the FLESH AND SPIRIT and learning is impossible.


But he is a Jew, which is one INWARDLY;
..and circumcision is that of the HEART, in the SPIRIT,
....and not in the letter (FLESH); whose praise is NOT of MEN, but of God. Ro.2:29

John was IN the spirit on the lord's day which Jesus said (John 4) is the ONLY PLACE God even looks for us wrote:

"I was IN the Spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Revelation 1:10

"We," the real person, can live "in" spirit or "in" flesh. What does this mean? Matthew Henry notes that:

.."You are not in the FLESH, but IN the SPIRIT. This expresses STATES and conditions of the soul vastly different. All the saints have FLESH and SPIRIT in them; but to be in the flesh and to be in the Spirit are contrary.
....It denotes our being OVERCOME and SUBDUED by one of these principles. As we say, A man is in love, or in drink, that is, overcome by it."

CLAPPING IS in the FLESH intended to disengage the SPIRIT OR MIND.

The "new style singing" from Vineyard's SEXUAL CLIMAX is 100% IN THE FLESH. It INTENDS to silence the human SPIRIT. Praise God that SO MANY people understood that from their OWN STUDY and common sense. Paul did not say that we worship WITH SPIRIT which is translated as ENTHUS O MANIA of Philo and Paul which meant "driven out of your mind with music." The OLD Circumcision worshiped IN THE FLESH for the most part. Therefore, in the FLESH is in PLACE but in the SPIRIT is the human MIND, of the human spirit:

For we are the circumcision, which
....worship God IN the SPIRIT,
....and rejoice IN Christ Jesus,
and have no confidence IN the FLESH. Philippians 3:3

"Though I might also have confidence in the FLESH. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Phil 3:4

WHITE: You can't do that just sitting there. And I tell you, I don't want to hear anybody that DOES NOT SING in a worship service say anything about a group that PLAYS IN IT.

Ken: Don't be threatened like you were about TITHING: THE COMMAND IS TO TEACH AND ADMONISH: NOT SING IN THE MODERN CHARISMATIC STYLE WHICH AROUSES THE SEXUAL PLEASURE CENTERS. MOST of the world still sings with a limited range in the lower register to make UNDERSTANDING CLEARER: not to stroke the nerve endings. The Oriental mind still rejects most western music which is not REMOTELY similar to the teaching-singing of Paul.

Jesus would FORBID you to follow the Musical Worship Team because He CAST OUT the team in order to PERFORM His Spiritual healing. It was, I say and say and say, AS ONE EJECTS DUNG. They SMELL something fishy and understand that PsalmISTS or fluteISTS are PARASITES and they want the OFF THEIR BACKS. For instance the FLUTE-GIRLS were prostitutes.

While we are NOT commanded to SING ala BODY stimulation style, the BIBLE always associates INSTRUMENTS with Satan, prostitutes, innocent children's games or SERVING the priests as the slaughter the TYPES of Jesus christ.

INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC is universally CONDEMNED through out the Old Testament and Church History as a MARK that you are telling God that "WE WILL NOT LISTEN TO YOUR WORDS."

We know of no HISTORY where God condemns people for NOT singing. In fact, if you SING when you are SAD you just heap misery on the heads of people. Therefore, if you are SAD James seems to command you NOT to sing.

WHITE: Because THERE IS NO MORE ERROR in PLAYING an INSTRUMENT of music in WORSHIP service than there is in SITTING and NOT SINGING. Amen? Both violate the spirit of the New Testament. So you see, you SING with VIGOR and ZEAL in teaching…."

KEN: Jesus used the word Ekklesia and Paul defined the assembly using a form of the word SYNAGOGUE. Bruce White makes singing into a LEGALISTIC ACT for which you can get burned. The "singing" of the Psalms was like the LINING OUT of Psalms in some modern churches: it was a way to LEARN the Text and not to MAKE MUSIC. You spend all of that money to DELIBERATELY SOW DISCORD and from the list of songs we know that NO ONE learns ANYTHING. On the contrary, the perfectly good resource composed by the Spirit of Christ is DELIBERATELY SILENCED. Why SHOULD people get involved with SPITTING in the face of Jesus. Job's being SPIT IN THE FACE is also translated as to TABER or CLAP or beat him like a drum.

PAUL CONFIRMED that A holy PERSONAL spirit is the same as A pure conscience:

..For God is my witness, whom I serve with MY SPIRIT in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Rom 1:9
....But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in NEWNESS of SPIRIT, and not in the oldness of the letter (Flesh only). Ro.7:6

..I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with PURE CONSCIENCE, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day; 2 Tim 1:3
....How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your CONSCIENCE from dead works to SERVE the living God? Heb.9:14

Music translated as NOISE was one of the DEAD WORKS of the Jews worshiping LIKE THE NATIONS.

Ken Sublett

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Kenneth Sublett
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September 9 2003, 9:53 AM 

Here is the game plan: you throw up a STRAW MAN:

.."You know those guys who drink the fruit of the vine out of ONE CUP (we all used to be one cuppers and many are still ONE CHALICERS).

....Well, HERE THEY GO AGAIN: now, they want to RESTRICT the use of instrumental music (singing with clapping IS instrumental.)


BRUCE WHITE: "And he talks about a man should not have LONG HAIR because that's designed by God as a woman's covering. And so he says you need to pay attention to those things in your service, in your worship that would interfere or interrupt in your personal approach to God….

....The ATTITUDE that one brings to worship is what Paul is talking about. The expression of PRAISE to God in attitude…. Where do you want to worship?
… I'll take that JOY and LIFE and EXCITEMENT every time. Paul goes on in verse 17-19 of chapter 11. He talks about the Lord's Supper. He's been talking about division and party spirits….

No: Paul is NOT talking about ATTITUDE: He is talking about things that "MAKES YOUR ASSEMBLIES DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD." He directly REPUDIATES instrumental music in 1 Cor 13:1 where the instruments are of WARFARE or SORCERY. We have noted that flutISTS or harpISTS pretended to arouse the SPIRIT but the Greek called them PARASITES. They were the poisoners or sorcerers in Revelation.

We have noted that if you want Jesus in your assemblies, especially for the Lord's Supper, your singing WITH HIM will be grieving out a hymn. The word REVERENCE and GODLY FEAR means with silence and downcast eyes: like a country kid in the presence of the KING. The EXCITEMENT is being ENRAPTURED which derives from RAPED. You are spitting in the fact of the God of the Universe. That means that they don't grasp the FIRST PRINCIPLES even of the meaning of God .

Almost by definition, those who came to the early ASSEMBLIES (synagogues) brought with them A WEAK CONSCIENCE. Therefore, Paul knew that Jesus built a SYNAGOGUE and not a temple or SACRIFICIAL WORSHIP CENTER.

Therefore in Romans 14 Paul can only be describing the Orphics and Dionysiacs who were both ADDICTED to the use of INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC to please or arouse themselves to JOY AND EXCITEMENT. It would be an absolute certainty that both groups in Rome would bring the urge to BE PLEASED even in a sexual sense while being EXCITED (enthus O mania) with performance music while repudiating the TEACHING role of singing which WAS NOT music.

"Swept away by the 'eater of raw flesh' and his wild hunt, the devotees of DIONYSUS õmêstés cease to be TRANQUIL diners on the flesh of an animal that has been cooked by the RULES. They become savage themselves and behave like ferocious beasts. They escape the human condition by way of bestiality, taking the lower route among the ANIMALS,
...while ORPHISM proposes the same escape on the divine side, taking the upper route by refusing the meat diet that spills the blood of living beings and eating only perfectly pure food."

Paul's solution (I say again) was:

."WE then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities (conscience) of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Rom 15:1
..."Let every one of us PLEASE his neighbour for his good to EDIFICATION. Rom 15:2

"For even Christ PLEASED not himself; but, as it is written, The REPROACHES of them that reproached thee fell on me. Rom 15:3

REPROACH is what happens when men PLEASE THEMSELVES and CHASE OFF others by NOT obeying the EXAMPLE of Christ and the DIRECT COMMAND OF PAUL. People see the NEW STYLE Babylon music as RAILING at them and REPROACHING them for their NON-PERFORMANCE worship:

..Oneidizo (g3679) on-i-did'-zo; from 3681; to defame, i.e. rail at, chide, TAUNT: - cast in teeth, (suffer) reproach, revile, upbraid.

Jesus said that people are BLESSED when they are reproached or mocked:

....Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall SEPARATE you FROM their COMPANY, and shall reproach you, and cast out your NAME as EVIL, for the Son of mans sake. Lu.6:22

Divide is
...Aphorizo (g873) af-or-id'-zo; from 575 and 3724; to SET OFF by BOUNDARY, i.e. (fig.) limit, exclude, appoint, etc.: - DIVIDE, SEPARATE, SEVER.

Paul grouped

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance (discord), emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Ga.5:20

IDOLATRY of a man or the 'idolatry of talent' is more evil than worshiping an IMAGE of a man.

Witchcraft is the pharmakeia or poisoning which with Circe (church) was with music and literal drugs now replaced by MORPHINE- within produced by music. "singers and musicians" are defined in the Greek world as SORCERERS and PARASITES.

You CANNOT escape the HATE charge if you intend to INFILTRATE and DIVERT with A HIGH HAND.

WRATH means to "breath hard" which is assuredly the THUO or slaughter which was SERVED by the music of the Levites or "noise" while mocking the type of Jesus Christ.

STRIFE means "intrigue" or "faction" as in a FACTION formed to secretly move into instrumental music unless stopped and into ORGANIC instruments (i.e. vocal bands) if opposed. WILLOW CREEK and therefore SADDLEBACK admits that change cannot occur without LOTS OF STRIFE. Therefore, the STRIFE is preplanned. But Paul said:
Let nothing be done through STRIFE or VAINGLORY; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Ph.2:3

SEDITIONS means "disunion." The SADDLEBACK riders KNEW and PLANNED that SEDITION was being sowed but was not SMART enough to get the bills paid before PERVERTING into a "theater for holy entertainment."

Heresy in an EVIL sense to to MAKE A PARTY to change that which had been held EN TOTO in the Restoration Movement and Madison.

......If ye be reproached for the NAME of Christ, HAPPY are ye; for the SPIRIT OF glory and of GOD resteth UPON you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 1Pe.4:14

Ken Sublett

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Estill B.
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September 10 2003, 6:07 AM 

Mr. Sublett,

A case can be made against instrumental music without saying things that scripture does not say.

Ken: He directly REPUDIATES instrumental music in 1 Cor 13:1 where the instruments are of WARFARE or SORCERY.

Estill: Although these particular instruments were used at the time in pagan worship, Paul is drawing the parallel of speaking with mere empty sounds. These sounds would be of no avail, as is a man's speaking with "divers" tongues. With no one to interpret, it means nothing.

Ken: Therefore in Romans 14 Paul can only be describing the Orphics and Dionysiacs who were both ADDICTED to the use of INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC to please or arouse themselves to JOY AND EXCITEMENT. It would be an absolute certainty that both groups in Rome would bring the urge to BE PLEASED even in a sexual sense while being EXCITED (enthus O mania) with performance music while repudiating the TEACHING role of singing which WAS NOT music.

Estill: Yes, but he was talking about eating; he didn't repudiate their music here.

We need to leave alone arguments against music that either are very thin (or aren't there at all), and stuck to arguments like the exegesis of psallo.

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Kenneth Sublett
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Re: excited

September 10 2003, 12:15 PM 

What you say is true but according to Peter's warning about Paul we should see what the WORDS meant to Paul at the time. This deserves more attention but for now just look at a brief notion which I will expand.
The sounding brass was actually a musical instrument. It was used by the Greeks as a gong and echo chamber intended to melt the heart of the enemy. The word has about the same meaning as the FAMILIAR SPIRIT of the witch of Endor. The old stiff wineskin was later turned into the nebel or harp. The concept is that of Nabal: "a vile, wicked person."

While you may consider this to be REACHING, it is a fact that every name of an instrument or musical term is rooted in Satanic, vile or destructive words. That must be stacked against those who see MUSIC as an aid to worship. Assuredly the Greek world connects Paul's terms of "prophesying" (in the pagan sense) to booming or sounding or clanging. Women most often used many devices including drugs and music to go into an ecstatic state called "prophesying." Their gibberish was "interpreted" by a priest and put into verse or song by the musician.

There is a lot of material from the Classics and various online dictionaries which go well beyond the simpler material to define words like PSALLO in destructive terms.

Homer, Iliad

"So saying, he led the way, and the other followed, a godlike man. And from them--even as the din ariseth of woodcutters in the glades of a mountain, and afar is the sound thereof heard-- [635] so from them went up a CLANGING from the broad-wayed earth, a CLANGING of BRONZE and of HIDE and of well-wrought shields, as they thrust one at the other with swords and two-edged spears."

Many "teams" claim that they are the MEDIATOR to lead people into the presence of God. And one doubts that a talented musician can pop up without claiming for THEIR SONGS exactly what the Bible claims for Jesus and HIS songs.

"Singing served as a means of INDUCING ecstatic prophecy (speaking in tongues).
....Thus the essential relationship between MUSIC and PROPHECY can be clearly seen.

"This relationship also explains why the expression for "making MUSIC" and "PROPHESYING" was often identical in the ancient tongues. origen contra celsum 8.67.
....The Hebrew word Naba signifies not only "to prophesy" but also "to make music." (Quasten, Johannes, Music and Worship in Pagan and Christian Antiquity, p. 39)

Latin word similar to PSALLO

revello, velli, vulsum or volsum, 3, v. a., to pluck or pull away, to pull or tear out, to tear off or away (freq. and class.).
..I. Lit. be torn away, remove,
....II. Trop., to tear away, send away injurias honorificis verbis,
....Signum: A sign, signal; a watchword, password, given by a WIND-INSTRUMENT.

Paul wrote:

...."THOUGH I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as SOUNDING brass, or a TINKLING cymbal. 1 Cor 13:1

Before Jesus could heal the young girl, He had to PUT OUT the "team" because the MINSTRELS or PIPE PLAYERS were the ones making a NOISE.

...."And when Jesus came into the rulers house, and saw the MINSTRELS and the people MAKING a noise, Mt.9:23

We should salute Thomas Paine if we consider his youth where he saw a boy slowly swinging in the wind because the CHURCH caught him stealing bread. Furthermore, without Thomas Paine the Revolutionary war would probably have failed. Receiving no credit for his crucial work he turned bitter at the church and Christianity in general. However, if you can stomach him, he clearly connects MUSIC and PROPHECY in the pagan sense.

Paul STILL SAYS (culture not withstanding) that worship means to GIVE HEED to Christ by giving heed to His Words as the TEXTBOOK rather than a new "theology." Wouldn't it be wonderful if you took the WAGE from the preacher who obviously is one of the latter day KNOW NOTHINGS and CARES LESS, connect a computer to your BIG SCREEN and use it to GIVE HEED to the Word rather than the BOOMERS AND CLANGERS? As it is, most churches have degenerated into musical rituals and praise singing which is one of the oldest pagan superstitions. We praise God by GIVING HEED to His Word and teaching it to others: A concocted PRAISE RITUAL must gag God as it seems to gag about half of the people.

Then you could call yourself a Christian Synagogue. You wouldn't have stolen all of that LAW OF GIVING and TITHING money and, like Corinth, DONE MORE HARM THAN GOOD. The "because of transgression" at Mount Sinai made the apostates EXCITED as they engaged in musical idolatry, but God said that they made them a LAUGHINGSTOCK. When you REPEAT that "idolatry of talent" God according to Stephen TURNS YOU OVER to legalism and the worship of the STARS.

Ken Sublett

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(no login)

Re: excited

May 27 2012, 4:19 AM 

This guy is a lunatic

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Losing Your Focus

May 27 2012, 5:24 AM 


You're losing or misdirecting your focus. Where's the "beef"?

Feel free to bring up any premise (one at a time) that you disagree with, and present your rebuttal.

But thanks for reviving this thread.

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(no login)


May 28 2012, 1:16 AM 

How do you know its Brian?

Mr. Cruz, you were asking another individual to "man up."

After taking in this site......I would suggest...seriously suggest...that you might refrain from asking others to "man up."
To do so would only suggest that the requester can likewise "man up."
My opinion only....

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)


May 28 2012, 4:47 AM 

Thanks for the inquiry and suggestion.

How do I know it's Brian? Good question. Not for certain.

One of my bases is that Brian submits his posts from a number of locations -- all from dynamic internet addresses which I have noted. At times, depending on his login entries, "Brian Cade" automatically displays, and that's obvious to the reader.

Another basis is his constant personal attacks against Ken Sublett without making the effort to even present a civil rebuttal against matters that he vehemently disagrees with.

It would be easy for anyone (including myself) to address someone by mistake. However, in this case, Brian has every chance to provide me with the correct information.

LOL. happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif I think it was Brian who initiated here the expression similar to this: "man up." So, I was somewhat doing a little imitation. OK?

Thanks for the suggestion. (Actually, I have no intention of asking someone to "man up." Not anymore. I actually think of it as a "filler" expression when one has nothing else worthwhile to say.)

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)


May 28 2012, 9:54 AM 

I only know one person who spreds so much hate and refuses to read: Al Maxey. He wouldn't DARE out himself and dialog like a man.

Acts 26:24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.
Acts 26:25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.

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