What’s Wrong with the Promise Keepers Movement?


by Wayne Jackson
Christian Courier: Penpoints

A group of men organized to form a plan to rejuvenate “Christian” men with a new spiritual emphasis. Everything came together eventually, and in 1993, Promise Keepers was born. But what’s wrong with the Promise Keepers movement?
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Stockton, California has been one of the roughest cities on the West Coast. It’s had a significant crime rate – one of the highest in the nation. And it’s been a major “drug hub” for the West. One can imagine, therefore, that a great sigh of relief went up from Stockton’s religious community last weekend when 35,000 weeping, praying, hand-holding men descended upon the city. It was the Promise Keepers (hereafter known as PK) convention.

According to literature distributed by the PK officials, the idea for this movement was born in March of 1990, when Bill McCartney, then head football coach for the University of Colorado, and his friend, Dave Wardell, were driving from Denver to Pueblo, Colorado. Subsequently, a group of men organized to form a plan to rejuvenate “Christian” men with a new spiritual emphasis. Everything came together eventually, and in 1993, PK was born.

Huge rallies are conducted periodically in various parts of the country, and thousands of men travel (sometimes great distances) to attend. They generally pay a $55 registration fee, which provides several services.

The PK philosophy is based upon the premise that “Christian growth begins by making promises.” Seven of these promises are extracted from disciples of the PK movement. They are as follows:

1. A Promise Keeper is committed to honoring Jesus Christ through worship, prayer, and obedience to His Word, through the power of the Holy Spirit.
   
   
2. A Promise Keeper is committed to pursuing vital relationships with a few other men, understanding that he needs brothers to help him keep his promises.
   
   
3. A Promise Keeper is committed to practicing spiritual, moral, ethical, and sexual purity.
   
   
4. A Promise Keeper is committed to building strong marriages and families through love, protection and biblical values.
   
   
5. A Promise Keeper is committed to supporting the mission of the church by honoring and praying for his pastor and by actively giving his time and resources.
   
   
6. A Promise Keeper is committed to reaching beyond any racial and denominational barriers to demonstrate the power of biblical unity.
   
   
7. A Promise Keeper is committed to influencing his world, being obedient to the Great Commandment (Mark 12:30-31) and the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19-20).
   

“How in the world,” some wonder, “could anyone who honors the teaching of Jesus Christ not be thrilled with proposals such as these?”

No one, who is honest with the evidence, is going to deny that there are some good motives and asperations in these premises. But that is not the entire picture. These platform planks, together with other literature from this “ministry,” reveal some astounding errors – errors so serious that they cannot be ignored.

No sensitive person takes any pleasure in having to expose the fallacies of a movement that attracts so many sincere men who want better things for their families. But, as unlikely as it may seem to the superficial Bible student, the ideology of the PK phenomenon is seriously flawed in several significant particulars. This brief article is not intended to be a detailed review of the flaws of PK. Rather, we call attention to but four of the false ideas promoted by the administration of this organism.

1. The PK leaders contend for a supernatural operation of the Holy Spirit – when no such experience is available today. While miraculous revelation and signs were a part of the apostolic experience in the first century, those wonders were removed from the church’s possession when the New Testament canon was completed (1 Cor. 13:8-10; see our article on Miracles in the Archives section of this site).
   
   Today, there is not one fact that anyone knows about the character of God, the life and work of Jesus Christ, the gospel, or what God’s will for man is – except that which is learned from the Bible. No person has ever been discovered – in any remote region of the earth – who knows anything of these matters, if he has been totally isolated from the influence of the written Word.
   
   And yet the PK literature suggests just the reverse of this. It is even contended that “the idea for Promise Keepers was planted in the heart” of Bill McCartney (emp. WJ). By whom? Do “ideas” exist apart from words or other communicative symbols? If they do not, might not one then conclude that Mr. McCartney claims a “divine revelation” for the origin of PK?
   
   
2. The PK administrators have no respect for the New Testament concept of the church of Jesus Christ. In the first century there were no denominations. There was “one body” (1 Cor. 12:20; Eph. 4:4), and that body was the church (Eph. 1:22-23; Col. 1:18, 24). Denominationalism is an apostate aberration that originated centuries after the cessation of divine revelation (2 Thes. 2:1ff; 1 Tim. 4:1ff). The PK organization asserts an ecumenical theory regarding the church that is entirely contrary to New Testament doctrine.
   
   The PK system, therefore, does not promote genuine biblical unity; rather, it fosters sectarian division. It is strikingly at variance with the prayer of Jesus (Jn. 17:20-21), and the admonition of the Lord’s apostle (1 Cor. 1:10). The PK philosophy of “support your local denomination” is completely misdirected.
   
   
3. The PK emphasis on “male” togetherness, as a formalized movement, finds no scriptural sanction. In Christ, we are neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female (Gal. 3:28).
   
   What if someone aspires to establish an “all-white” movement, designated as the “Caucasian Covenant Keepers”? The outcry would be vociferous, and rightly so! If a para-church movement, segregated along racial lines, is unacceptable, where is the value in gender exclusion – in pursuing spiritual goals? PKism is a fad with no biblical basis.
   
   
4. The PK dogma is wholly at odds with New Testament teaching relative to the plan of redemption. Advocates of “PK-ology” promote the so-called “Sinner’s Prayer.” They allege that salvation occurs the instant the following words are mouthed:
   
   “God, I confess to you that I am a sinner. And, through faith, I invite your Son into my heart this very moment, to save my soul.”
   
   Though many who offer such a petition are unquestionably sincere, there is no New Testament precedent for this sort of prayer. Moreover, in spite of explicit biblical evidence to the contrary, PK officials are adamant that immersion in water has nothing to do with one’s salvation (cf. Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Pet. 3:21). This is nothing short of heresy.
   

Finally, this query must be raised. In view of the foregoing (and much more), how could anyone – who possesses a fundamental level of Bible knowledge – endorse or support the PK enterprise? And yet some, who should have known better, have done so. It is to their shame.

We do not question the pure motives of thousands of men who are seeking some enhancement for their family relationships. We do affirm, however, – and emphatically so – that Promise Keepers is not the answer. We are sufficiently “rooted and builded up” in our relationship with Christ (Col. 2:6-7), and His divine organism, the church.

Machiavelli, quoted by Rubel Shelly trying to explain patience needed in MAKING CHANGES, wrote that "You can change people by PRAYER or FORCE. Since Prayer seldom works you must use FORCE if you intend to be the PRINCE over a stolen kingdom." Promise Keepers found that prayer didn't work and therefore turned to FORCE in their NATIONAL SHEPHERDING movement.

http://www.piney.com/Shepherding.html

Since Max Lucado has been VP of PK he has hired a DISCIPLING MINISTER for Oak Hills.

http://www.piney.com/Brad.Tuggle.Oak.Hills.html

Lynn Anderson has a more explicit PK shepherding movement which is being used to infiltrate conservative churches and colleges such as York

http://www.piney.com/Anderson-Shepherds.html

Part of the CULT is creating the Family of God as a community or commune. Part of the goal according to Rubel Shelly is to hold one another accountable. You can bet that while there is a WHINEY PINEY heart about how others are LEGALISTIC you can betcha that you will never even get to FIRST BASE is you dare to CROSS the Alpha Male.

http://www.piney.com/WinFMSeeking.html

From the FBI's Project Meggido identifying CULTS. Many or most recruit "human material" from churches. They EMBEDD agents or Key Men into congregations who take notes and report back. They naturally love "spiritual leadership" roles. Nevertheless, if you MISPEAK you will find yourself Cast Out of the Synagogue Jiffy quick.

"Specificaly, a cultic relationship refers to one in which a person intentionally induces others to become totally or nearly totally dependent on him or her for almost all major life decisions,

and inculcates in these followers a belief that he or she has some special talent, gift, or knowledge."

SPIRITUAL GIFT DISCOVERY IS ONE OF THE SCHEMES of Cultists such as the Shepherding of Crossroads, or Promise Keepers.

This definition of cults provides important distinctions that are vital for analyzing a cult's predilection towards violence. The origin of the cult, the role of its leader, and its uniqueness provide a framework for understanding what distinguishes cults from other domestic terrorist groups that otherwise share many similar characteristics. These distinctions are:

(1) cult leaders are self-appointed, persuasive persons who claim to have a special mission in life or have special knowledge;

(2) a cult's ideas and dogma claim to be innovative and exclusive; and

(3) cult leaders focus their members' love, devotion and allegiance on themselves. These characteristics culminate in a group structure that is frequently highly authoritarian in structure.

While predicting violence is extremely difficult and imprecise, there are certain characteristics that make some cults more prone to violence. Law enforcement officials should be aware of the following factors:

Sequestered Groups: Members of sequestered groups lose access to the outside world and information preventing critical evaluation of the ideas being espoused by the leader.

Leader's History: The fantasies, dreams, plans, and ideas of the leader are most likely to become the beliefs of the followers because of the totalitarian and authoritarian nature of cults.

Max Lucado intimidated the elders at Oak Hills by claiming to have a VISION to remove CHRIST from the sign, add instrumental music, proclaim Oak Hills the Mother Church of San Antonio and "just preach love." Don Finto went to Roswell or someplace, had a VISION that he was an Apostle and returned to join the Nashville Wrecking Crew including Jubilee.

Psychopaths: Control of a group by charismatic psychopaths or those with narcissistic character disorders.

Changes in the Leader: Changes in a leader's personality caused by traumatic events such as death of a spouse or sickness.

PROMISE KEEPERS 1996 IN ATLANTA CERTAINLY INDUCED A FORM OF SCHIZOPHRENIA (A DESIRED GOAL) IN CLOSE TO 40,000 "CLERGY"

Language of the Ideology: Groups that are violent use language in their ideology that contains the seeds of violence.

Implied Directive for Violence: Most frequently, a leader's speeches, rhetoric, and language does not explicitly call for violence, rather it is most often only implied.

People assume a SEIGE MENTALITY: The leader's think that they have AGREEMENT when they really have people in THE GRIP OF THEIR GRUDGE because they control JOBS. It is spiritual terrorism when people SERVE under FEAR.

Length of Time: The longer the leader's behavior has gone unchecked against outside authority, the less vulnerable the leader feels.

Who Is in the Inner Circle: Cults with violent tendencies often recruit people who are either familiar with weapons or who have military backgrounds to serve as enforcers.

Cults like Willow Creek has an ASSIMILATED class and a COMPLIMENTARIAN class. Hitler called it the INTELLECTUAL LEADERS and the HUMAN MATERIAL. The Purpose Driven cult has an inner circle which MEANS MORE than just taking classes and signing covenants.

An analysis of millennial cults by the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit describes how rhetoric changes depending on whether the leader's ideology envisions the group

as playing an active role in the coming Apocalypse or a passive survivalist role:

A cult that predicts that "God will punish" or "evil will be punished" indicates a more passive and less threatening posture
.....than the cult that predicts that "God's chosen people will punish . . ."

"In 1986, McCartney exhorted his Promise Keepers followers: "Many of you feel like you've been in a war for a long time, yet the fiercest fighting is still ahead. Let's proceed. It's wartime." In recent years, they have toned down the militaristic language. No longer emphasized are the "squads of men" engaging in "spiritual warfare" as "God's army," fighting "a raging battle" with Jesus as their "commander-in-chief" and CLERGY as "commissioned officers."

VIOLENCE is specificially indicated when people ASSUME LEADERSHIP as if to dare you to OBJECT to the wholesale conversion of a peacable church into a Purpose Driven Cult. We know! When people infiltrate, lie, cheat and steal whole churches you can betcha that the FBI is watching. And the local community will never trust them again!

Ken Sublett

Ken, what evidence do you have that Max Lucado "intimidated the Elders at Oak Hills?" As an attorney, I would like to see a short, direct response to this direct question without all the verbage that traditionally accompanies your posts.

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MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR

TOM, this is not a court. If it were we would not let you practice anonymously.

But, just for the fun of it! You've been OVERRULED!

The defendent doesn't have to answer your question, unless he wishes.

If the defendent does answer he can answer with as much "verbage" as he wishes, or is customary.
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CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE - Circumstantial evidence is best explained by saying what it is not - it is not direct evidence from a witness who saw or heard something. Circumstantial evidence is a fact that can be used to infer another fact.

Indirect evidence that implies something occurred but doesn't directly prove it; proof of one or more facts from which one can find another fact; proof of a chain of facts and circumstances indicating that the person is either guilty or not guilty.

E.g., If a man accused of embezzling money from his company had made several big-ticket purchases in cash around the time of the alleged embezzlement, that would be circumstantial evidence that he had stolen the money. The law makes no distinction between the
weight given to either direct or circumstantial evidence.

E.g., X is suing his wife, Y, for a divorce, claiming she is having an affair with Z. Z's fingerprints are found on a book in X and Y's bedroom. A judge or jury may infer that Z was in the bedroom. The fingerprints are circumstantial evidence of Z's presence in the bedroom. Circumstantial evidence is usually not
as good as direct evidence (an eyewitness saw Z in the bedroom) because it is easy to make the wrong inference - Y may have loaned Z the book and then carried it back to the bedroom herself after getting it back.

Circumstantial evidence is generally admissible in court unless the connection between the fact and the inference is too weak to be of help in deciding the case. Many convictions for various crimes have rested largely on circumstantial evidence.

CIRCUMSTANCES - The particulars which accompany a fact.

The facts proved are either possible or impossible, ordinary and probable, or extraordinary and improbable, recent or ancient; they may have happened near us or afar off; they are public or private, permanent or transitory, clear and simple or complicated;
they are always accompanied by circumstances which more or less influence the mind in forming a judgment. And in some instances these circumstances assume the character of irresistible evidence;
where, for example, a woman was found dead in a room with every mark of having met with a violent death, the presence of another person at the scene of action was made manifest by the bloody mark of a left hand visible on her left arm.

These points ought to be carefully examined in order to form a correct opinion. The first question ought to be; is the fact possible? If so, are there any circumstances which render it impossible? If the facts are impossible, the witness ought not to be credited. If, for example, a man should swear that he saw the deceased shoot himself with his own pistol and
upon an examination of the ball which killed him it should be found too large to enter into the pistol, the witness ought not to be credited. Or if one should
swear that another had been guilty of an impossible crime.

I would hope that the Moderator would be as interested in whether statements made on this board are truthful. The issue is simply that Ken has made a statement that I do not believe to be true. I have asked him the simple question to provide any evidence which he might have as to whether the statement is true. If someone is unable to ask a question of those who use this board as a "soap box" then it is useless to those who might want to learn from the exchange.

HERE IS THE LUCADO VISION and I can supply you some SPEAKING IN TONGUES and Rubel Shelly "hearing the voice of the Spirit person."

http://www.oakhillschurchofchrist.org/messages/a_call_to_greater_vision.html

Here is my review which I now have to update:

http://www.piney.com/Max-Lucado-Creed.html

Max Lucado at Oak Hills: "In a quiet, dusty corner of Samaria, Jesus started a revolution. Separating Him and the woman He desired to teach were major barriers. But He systematically dismantled each one and, in doing so, showed us the importance of doing the same. He lowered the geographical barrier by entering the Samaritan province (Jn. 4: 5). He overcame a gender barrier by engaging her in conversation (vs. 7). The guilt barrier collapsed as he accepted her, knowing of her past (vs. 18). As he drank from her cup, he was removing the cultural barrier between her Gentile and His Jewish heritage. Even a worship barrier diminished as Jesus taught her the truth of God's presence (vs. 23). By the end of the conversation, she was changed and the disciples were stunned. "...they were amazed that he had been speaking with a woman..." (vs. 27 NASB).

Ken Sublett NOT at the BAR of the HOLY TAVERN:

This is all Max's NEW VISION. He missed the WHOLE story if it matters at all. The punch line was that SHE claimed to worship with SINGING improvized songs, drinking wine, and playing instruments represented by Mount Gerezim, the worship of the AMOS condemnation of "worshiping the starry host" (See Acts 7). SHE was taught only the first four books of Moses. At Mount Zion, the PLACE where the CIVIL-STATE worshipped they sacrificed tens of thousands of TYPES of Jesus Christ trying to FIND the lost "god." However, THEY believed in the WHOLE OLD TESTAMENT which would have INFORMED her that the PLACE of worship was the CURSE of the Law added "becaue of musical idolatry of the Egyptian TRIAD." None of this was SPIRITUAL WORSHIP which made SPIRITUAL CHANGES.

Jesus as the Messiah whom the woman would identify as HE WILL TEACH US ALL THINGS , told her and "all who are awake with their clothes with them." Even the prostitutes and publicans understood the NATURE of GOD WITH US while the Pharisees and Doctors of the Law would REJECT God's direct command by rejecting baptism.

Jesus confessed to being the MESSIAH who would TEACH as opposed to the clergyy's EXPECTED Dionysus who would lead us into a musical, perverted, effeminate ritual.

Therefore, to make the VISION of Jesus fill up your BRIEF (too), Jesus said, here is how the worship of a HOLY (wholly) SPIRIT God can be identified:

First, God in Christ said it is not in YOUR PLACE or the JEW'S PLACE. Worship will be in the PLACE of the human spirit which is the ONLY place God even recognizes you in GIVING HEED to Him and His TRUTH. For those who do the praise rituals as in Lord, Lord Saying, God DOESN'T EVEN KNOW YOUR NAME because bring singers and musicians into the Holy Place (church) or into the Most Holy Place (your mind) would be an AUTOMATIC DEATH PENALTY.

The SPIRIT OF TRUTH is the LANGUAGE OF DIALOG in the anti-type (INSTEAD OF) Most Holy Place where God meets EACH priest in darkness and silence (the closet). Remember, Paul said for the public assembly or SYNAGOGUE, unity is possible only if we with ONE MIND and ONE VOICE glorify God "with that which is written" (Rom 15 defining the synagogue), "the Spirit or Word of Christ" (Jn 6:63) or the Word of Christ (Col. 3:16).

Therefore, these people are practicing the LAW without knowing anything about the Law. Why would sane people HIRE a charismatic BRAIN SURGEON when he couldn't even LOCATE the brain?

Max Lucado continues: God calls us to do the same. Over the last few months, I've sensed our Master urging us to expand our dreams for San Antonio. He calls us to a fresh vision: a vision of a city-impacting church.

....As the details of this VISION crystallized for ME, I shared them with our elders.

......They prayed, pondered, and TESTED the ideas and, ULTIMATELY saw them as GOD'S WILL for OAK HILLS.

WEBSTER: ultimately adv 1: as the end result of a succession or process; "ultimately he had to GIVE IN"

You don't need to be no Matlock to see the horrors between VISION and ULTIMATELY. Deep down, the changers speak the language of violence especially against "non-instrumental churches of Christ" which paid their WAGES before VISIONS and ULTIMATELY.

Now, elders cease to be LOYAL when they quit "teaching that which has been taught"" and able to REFUTE the illogic of Max. Why would it take an ULTIMATELY to CONCENSUS with Max's Vision. Because this is the confessed HEGELIAN DIALECTIC where you GANG UP on the elders: if FIVE say that Max had a VISION from God and FOUR says that Max had a VISION from Lucifer, then the SATANIC AGREEMENT is that WE can say that "ELDERS ARE unanimously AGREED THAT MAX GOT HIS VISION FROM GOD or the 'hallucinated SPIRIT PERSON'."

In other words,"MY vison equals God's Will." The BODY is not functioning: it is BURDEN LADEN by Burden Laders which is "spiritual anxiety created by religious ritual."

The language of the JUBILEE is to RETRIEVE all of the lands sold to those outside of the tribe. In a religious sense it ALWAYS meant "for the atonement." The launguage or PROMISE KEEPERS (Max once VP and still promoter of the CROSSROADS control) is the language of WARFARE.

Max Lucado: The purpose of this PURPOSE is to share several STRATEGIC decisions that will POSTURE Oak Hills to make,

"....with the LORD'S GUIDANCE

"....a CITYWIDE IMPACT. We call you to dedicate the next FORTY DAYS (August 31 to October 9) to prayer, asking God to give us all strength to obey his call. Like the Apostle Paul, we desire to say, "...I obeyed this vision from heaven..." (Acts 26:19 CEV)

FIRST, THE MESSAGE OF STRATEGIC:

Strategic is "effected by artifice," "any point or region in the theater," "warlike operations which affords an advantage over his opponent."

We know that it is SPIRITUAL WARFARE when Lynn Anderson and his NEW SHEPHERDING DILEMA is used in San Antonio to try to CRUSH the other churches. Sure beats BUYING and BUILDING.

"How to Hold Good Games Polybius, Histories, proves that the new HOSTILE TAKE OVER PEOPLE imitate, to the letter, ancient warfare. Polybius says that:

.....It requires the same sort of SPIRIT to arrange public GAMES well , and to set out GREAT BANQUETS and WINE with fitting splendour, as it does to draw up an ARMY in presence of the ENEMY with STRATEGIC skill. . . .

Homer , The Odyssey (revealing the Holy Whore with MUSIC and DRUGS (new wineskin) through John in Revelation) asks:

....[394] "'Can you show me,' said I, 'some STRATEGY by means of which I may CATCH this OLD GOD without his SUSPECTING it and FINDING me OUT? For a daimon is not easily caught - not by a mortal man.'... Pick out, therefore, the three best men you have in your fleet, and I will tell you all the tricks that the old man will PLAY YOU.

The GAMBIT of the hostile takeover of churches used and still uses SECRET CODE WORDS to keep the fools from understanding.

Things like: "We believe in baptism" therefore "they are just slanderers and liars." The word A Cappella replaces CONGREGATIONAL SINGING because the fools do not know that A CAPPELLA is in the style of the Sistine Chapel by the castrated Musical Worship Teams imported for the Pope's pleasure from France.

Damon said through Plato that when the "MUSIC CHANGES you should worry that the LAWS will be changed." My Lawyer nephew says, and we have noted, "Never look at the surface MESSAGE." He thinks and I agree that women deaconesses and elderesses holding AUTHORITY as "authentia" as both EROTIC AND MURDEROUS are driving the spineless ELDERS to formulate a freer DOGMA on drinking, sexual freedom and "no contest" divorces. The NEW STYLE MUSIC known by Satan and Nimrod INTENDS to drive you into an erotic FRENZY which the women, uncovered PROPHESIERS in Corinth thought was the GODS moving around. MUSIC, RELIGION and SEXUALLY are always connected when they tell God: "We will not listen to your WORD."
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IMPACT MEANS FROM THE "now known" message of the CHANGERS:

..aparasso, sunarasso); of any VIOLENT impact, with collat. notion of RATTLING, CLANGING
....Pass., KITHAREN STRIKE the lyre, Orph.A.382; HUMNON, MELOS

In fact, the word PSALLO or melody is the language of MAKING WAR and has NO APPROVED external place in the church of synagogue of Christ. Melody or PSALLO says nothing of pleasant music: it means the PLUCKING of the BOW STRING to make an IMPACT such as the RED SPOT where the string STRIKES your arm. Psallo means TWITCHED WITH THE FINGER and NEVER with the PLECTRON (Guitar pick).

FIRST WORD OF INTEREST: KITHARA the Lat. cithara (whence guitar), a kind of lyre or lute, Hhymn., Hdt., attic: --it was of triangular shape, with seven strings

SECOND WORD OF INTEREST: HYMNOS a hymn, FESTIVE song or ode, in praise of GODS or HEROS... Eur.:--in Trag. also of MOURNFUL songs, Aesch., etc. This is the THRENOS they tried to induce in Jesus.

That is why Jesus would have RECITED a Psalm and Paul defined the HYMNING as IN THE SPIRIT and consisting of the Inspired Text.

THIRD WORD OF INTEREST: The word APOLLON (Apollo, Abaddon, Satan) usually appears with KITHARA. The Latin, therefore, defines Kithara Players as SORCERERS and PARASITES. The are DOOMED in Revelation 18.

FOURTH WORD OF INTEREST: MELOS means "a song, strain, Hhymn.... the CHORAL SONGS, opposed to the DIALOG, Plat.

When paul used the word SPEAKING as in TEACHING and ADMONISHING one another he DID NOT give Max the authority to translate it CHORAL SINGING when there is NOT A HINT of "music" in the church where Paul's PREACHING meant DIALOG. Therefore, you CANNOT teach or preach the WORD of God with CHORAL SINGING. The the SMALL GROUP of churches KNOW that they are INTENTIONALLY silencing the DIALOG with the high-tek CHORAL MUSIC as in A Cappella or PERFECT MELODY which ABRADES just like the ARROW STRINGS sending the SINGING ARROWS into the literal HEART so that it CANNOT tolerate ONE ANOTHER DIALOGE and intends to SILENCE the Voice of God.

Rubel Shelly speaking for the musical little horns (now just 5) says that the MINISTER is best qualified to lead the church. He says that the SHEPHERDS are to shepherd the MINISTERS.

All of the apostate churches have a DOMINANT PASTOR. At Oak Hills the loss of Max would destroy the church. Therefore, because the THESIS of Max's VISION and the ACCEPTANCE by the elders PROVES that MAX is in control or the ELDERS have no basis for being ELDERS and probably MAX APPROVED elders.

To refute it you will have to INVENT or IMPROVIZE or INNOVATE as the new CULTISTS claim they have authority to do by VISIONS, through NEW GLASSES and maybe VISIONS. Sure, there are always enough lost souls to make the same NEW SPECTACLES of JOSEPH SMITH so believable that, with some force, you can build a giant Gnostic Kingdom.

http://www.piney.com/RSReImaging.html

I rest my case. Ken Sublett.

Ken, I am aware of the written statement from Max Lucado. You could have summarized your statement as follows: "I have no evidence, my statement was pure speculation on my part." This would have clarified the issue for everyone.

I was thinking that you may have spoken with one of the Elders of Oak Hills or had something in writing from one of them to support your charges.

I am aware of the alleged tape of Lucado speaking in tongues, I am also aware of the fact that no one (other than the author of the article) is said to have heard the tape. Interesting!

Tom

Tom

But if the ministration of death , written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 2 Cor 3:7

How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 2 Cor 3: 8

.....Paul MINISTERED the SPIRIT by PREACHING!

For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of RIGHTEOUSNESS exceed in glory. 2 Cor 3: 9

For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 2 Cor 3: 10

For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. 2 Cor 3: 11

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 2 Cor 3: 12

THE JEWS VOWED TO THE Book of the Covenant. However, these TWISTED SISTERS simply could not tolerate the WORD of God. Therefore, they turned to the MUSICAL WORSHIP of the Egyptian triad where MUSIC and SEXUALITY are always connected. The PRAYED that God not speak to them. He answered their prayer, blinded their eyes and TURNED THEM OVER to worship Chiun or Saturn or 666 with music until they ULTIMATELY were taken BEYOND BABYLON.

And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel COULD NOT stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 2 Cor 3: 13

But their minds were BLINDED: for until this day remaineth the same vail UNTAKEN away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 2 Cor 3: 14

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 2 Cor 3: 15

Nevertheless, when it shall TURN to the LORD, the vail shall be taken away. 2 Cor 3: 16

TURNING TO THE LORD AT BAPTISM asks God for A holy spirit or A clear conscience or consiousness so that the VEIL was taken away and they could go boldly before the throne of Grace--one at a time in darkness and quiet of the CLOSSET.

Now

the Lord IS that Spirit:

and where the Spirit OF the Lord is, there is LIBERTY. 2 Cor 3: 17

But we ALL, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Cor 3: 18

We have also a more sure WORD of prophecy ; whereunto ye do well that ye TAKE HEED, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the DAY STAR ARISE in your hearts: 2Pe.1:19

Now, Tommy To Late, if you want me to PROVE this to the Doctors of the Law (condemned by Jesus because they TAKE AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE) you might contact Rubel Shelly and John York. The OLD TRUTH in the OLD BIBLE was derived for THEIR CULTURE as the people PARTNERED WITH GOD. Now, "so brilliant," WE live in a DIFFERENT CULTURE so WE have to PARTNER with God to get OUR OWN NARRATIVE. Hmmm! But if YOU "shoot your evolved eyeballs" at the new VISIONARIES the message MAY just evaporate (like Max's web page) or it PERHAPS will turn into a WAVE so YOU will just have to take my word for it: Engineer's standing TRUMPS lawyer's any day.

Donnie, did you make sure that your EYE BALLS didn't just SHOOT what Max wrote and promotes AWAY?

What DNA? If the glove doesn't FIT then Tom can just acquit MAX and fellow band of purveyors of TWISTED SCRIPTURE which JUST FITS those with TWISTED views of TRUTH. I don't believe in predestination but there has always been TWO OR MORE species all looking human. Jesus said that those WHO SPEAK ON THEIR OWN are the seed of the serpent, the DEVIL He speaks of those who are OF THE TRUTH who will hear. Those of the SEED of Christ in the WORD will not resist being BIRTHED "standing in water and out of water." The SEED PLUCKER birds are identified as DEMONS: that's why the OLDEN BIBLE has to be destroyed. But, the SEED OF CHRIST have the SEED in the HEART and not in the sexual pleasure centers. Paul even warned that the RISING UP TO PLAY meaning musical idolatry were participating with DEMONS. Cain, meaning "a musical note" was OF that Wicked one. So, GENES will out. That's why the DECOYS don't want to be identified.

Ken

Ken, I do not understand your need to call names. I would think that two intelligent people (especially Christians!) can have a discussion in a manner that is respectful and civil to each other. (Maybe a good term would be "Christ-like.")

Quite frankly, I believe you when you say that you are a retired engineer, however, such behavior makes me think of a seven year old who takes his ball home when he does not get his way.

Tom

================================
MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR

Tom, we are trying to love you, but your making it
difficult.

You accuse Mr. Sublett of calling names, then you turn
around and compare him to a seven year old.

Don't you see the problem here? (Please don't respond)

You are attacking the messenger, while you should stick with the message.

As an anonymous poster, you are welcome to attack the message, but not the messenger.

Mr. Sublett uses his name. Try it sometime.

Mr. Moderator, I beleive that there is a large difference between calling someone names and pointing out that someones behavior is childish. The next logical progression for Ken is that he will start cursing at those who do not agree with him 100%. Will such behavior be tolerated by the Moderator in the name of defending his message?

Ken has refused to answer the question which I have posed to him or admit that he has no such evidence for his statement. That is his choice, but it does call into suspiciion his credibility.

Your message seems to indicate that only those who agree with Mr. Sublett and do not ask any questions will be treated in a Christian-like manner. I hope such is not the case.

Tom Brite a/k/a Tom

Did someone state that Max Lucado was the one speaking in tongues? My understanding from reading the text in the provided link is that someone named Rusty was the one "speaking in tongues" with Max Lucado present.

Kevin

That was my error: within the same breath Don Finto was speaking about Max Lucado [not wanting to embarass him] and asked "rusty" to bring a message which came in "tongues?"

Max Lucado was there to endorse Don Finto and at the same time, if I am not mistaken again, to help "facilitate" the Jubilee. But, he does get "visions" about founding a "mother church" which is facilitated by bringing in the Shepherding effort under Lynn Anderson by slipping into a conservative church without telling the elders.

This is all part of the ball of wax called The Stone Campbell Movement which "facilitated" the Madison troubles. I am growing a scouting party here.

http://www.piney.com/Stone.Campbell.Movement.html

Tom Burgess has been the North West Christian church guy who has feed the GARBAGE IN to many churches of Christ and we are getting GARBAGE OUT. I am finally looking at a book sent to convert me several years ago. Lost the name of the kind sender.

http://www.piney.com/Music.Burgess.98.html

This is a list of documents intending to show that PSALLO or melody included instruments at the time Paul wrote. They miss two points: all scholarly work intended for retail was written in Attic Greek which the aristocrats used. The Bible was written in Koine which EXCLUDED instruments because the word speaks of WARFARE and not music.

As I unleash the right flank you will see that THERE IS NO EXCEPTION: when they use data about lyre-players or any kind of instrument players at the assemblies or festivals they were ALWAYS perverted and perverting. When bonded-buddies of the Symposium wanted to discuss anything important they sent the FLUTE-GIRL OUT. Two reasons: you cannot think with the flute-girl behind the "pulpit" and the playing facilited the "getting drunk on wine" or being piped down or fluted down with wine.

Sorry about getting the tongues mixed up!

Ken Sublett

Ken Sublett

I to have my concerns about promise keepers but your reasoning is just one more example of silly rhetoric. First of all, who says miracles have ended? Secondly, so what if they say a "sinners prayer." Just because the Bible is not specific doesn't disqualify its validity. Romans 10:9-11 should be sufficient enough. Constant hair splitting based upon pre conceived ideas of faith Really irritate me. Souls are being saved, converts are being discipled what's the problem?

Luke recorded the fact that Christ the Spirit informed Paul that he shoud "be baptized, calling on the name of the Lord to wash away his sins." No. Jesus did not mean BECAUSE your sins have been washed away. Faith saves from beginning to end but faith DOES NOT wash away sins without obedience. This is not debatable: those who debate simply DO NOT believe the Bible and they have to empty it of its power.

This is the same Paul who, in Romans 10, cycled through the process several times and ending with the goal of "calling on the name of the Lord." The Paul who wrote Romans 10 also wrote Romans 6 where he defines how we CONNECT with the "protos" gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. You bury only DEAD people: you do not people who have been REGENERATED. You do NOT wash clean people. God in Christ WOULD NOT promise you A holy spirit after baptism if you had RECEIVED "the" holy spirit BEFORE your baptism.

God ELECTS us meaning He INVITES US. We answer or RESPOND by requesting or ELECTING what He offers. When we are baptized we are ADDED to the church and become the ELECTOS.

The following set of notes has had some undigested definitions added but it proves that calling on the name of the Lord in Romans has nothing to do with the "sinner's prayer" which is just deceiving people and cheating them of the process of becomming a consious disciple of Christ and not as often can happen, a disciple of the preacher who gives us "a better deal."

http://www.piney.com/BapCalling.html

Becoming a disciple which JESUS said begins with a believer being baptized is not a decision about someone's faith: it has to do with WHAT DOES SCRIPTURE SAY? If people don't care what Scripture says then they ARE not a Christian or Jesus was a liar.

NO ONE who ever used the term SOLA FIDE had the remotest hint that it meant FAITH in Jesus without obedience. Again, Luther says that faith only means faith in Scripture ONLY because anything that comes out of Max Lucado's or my mind is NOT by faith. This faith only in Scripture only meant salvation by BAPTISM ONLY once a person becomes a believer. Or, again, Jesus was a liar. Why fight against God? Faith does not argue with God.

Please don't call Jesus a liar: just "teach the Word as it has been taught." What can you possibly gain by giving people a legalistic loophole. NO ONE will ever have the confidence or assurance or STAMP or seal on their conscience and consiousness until they have been baptized. Jesus wants us to have that assurance. Having someone tell you how to bypass the WAY is not a hopeful sign.

Ken Sublett

Paul said in I Corinthians 13 that the miraculous powers (the imperfect or partial) would go away when God's revelation (the perfect or completed) was finished. The Bible is very specific when it comes to salvation, notwithstanding the fact that it is totally silent concerning a so-called "sinners' prayer". Acts 22:16 plainly states that immersion in water washes sin away. Of course, this action must be predicated upon belief and repentance. Saul was fasting and praying prior to this so why weren't his sins forgiven then? Let us allow God's word to split all hairs and pre-conceived ideas and let Him have the final word concerning His will. Let us have the courage to follow His word and jetison man's perversions of it.

Mark Waggoner

From Cult Signs

http://www.piney.com/CultSigns.html

6. Fabrication of a "Crisis" or "Last-Days" Mentality which defines the actions of the group.

"Promise Keepers rhetoric and materials are laced with terms and ideas popular in the "SPIRITUAL WARFARE CIRCLES of fervid EVANGELICAL and charismatic groups.

Apocalyptic thinking - the sense that one must LABOR FRANTICALLY as a predetermined timetable of events unfolds - often serves to unify tight-knit religious groups.

Varying degrees of such "end times" PHOBIAS have been found in cults as diverse as Peoples Temple, Aum "Supreme Truth" (Japan), Church Universal and Triumphant, and the Order of the Solar Temple.

Members are instructed to FILTER all events in the outside world through a "LENS" which reveals a deeper level of truth. Within the ur-cultism of Promise Keepers,
...this truth coincides with a "signs and wonders" tradition found in charismatics and extreme evangelicals.

"Evangelicals are beginning to build their theologies around what it means for man to be in the PRESENCE of God [rather than around the objective TRUTH of the Word of God].

"Influenced by the wider Christian world, evangelicals who have adopted either a relational (INCARNATIONAL in his words) approach or a CHARISMATIC("neo-pentecostal") approach to their theology

...are more and more challenging their fellow believers to RETHINK the Gospel from the standpoint of their own experience with it. Their claim is that traditional evangelical theology is LARGELY IRRELEVANT or INADEQUATE." (MacArthur, John, Charismatic Chaos, p. 45, Zondervan).

Or as Rubel Shelly and Randy Harris state in their Second Incarnation: "DECADENT and DELETERIOUS" which to those without their doctorate means ROTTEN AND DESTRUCTIVE. They speak of the AZTEC pattern with admiration. In those JUBILEES up to 20,000 of the CAPTURED were sacrificed in the 52 year and 52 week cycles. The goal of SATAN is not to build his "church" or the SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN for the captives but to STING them and hold them captive until the end.

"Promise Keepers has now openly claimed to have a MANDATE from GOD which requires ALL churches to place themselves UNDER PROMISE KEEPERS' LEADERSHIP. A mandate from God is not merely a SUGGESTION; it is an ORDER. And to WILLFULLY disobey an order from God is REBELLION. Consequently, all pastors who do not submit to Promise Keepers' leadership are in open rebellion against God.

ANYONE who has been driven into schizophrenia by a PK PHALLIC EXPERIENCE and has been SUCKED into revealing the deapest, darkest secrets of their SEXUAL EXPLOITS, Phantasis, LUSTS at the office, cheating in business dealings have been HOOKED.

All Shepherding GROUPS will use the CELL GROUPS with an EMBEDDED traitor to collect a file on the GULLIBLE TRAVELERS so that they will be FORCED to radically CHANGE the church into a PK dominated church because, as Erasmus warned about CONFESSIONALS, the enemy has you and will CONTROL you. CONFESSION to the CHURCH THEY HAVE OFFENDED is the best way to get these BLACKMAILERS off their back.

"If, on the other hand, Promise Keepers' does NOT have a mandate from God, then their claim is based either on a DELUSION or it is a deliberate deception. If it is based on a delusion, Promise Keepers has proven itself unworthy to lead the churches since its leadership cannot distinguish between the voice of God, a mental IMAGE of human origin, or mental image of DEMONIC origin. It doesn't matter how much "good" they may lay claim to;

they are attempting to establish themselves as AUTHORIIES over God's Church without God's permission.

"The Father's heart, he stated, is to see all Christians come together under Promise Keepers' LEADERSHIP with the financial support of the churches.

No doubt: if you have participated in BREAKING DOWN THE WALLS at a PK Phallic rally THERE ARE Change Agents or KEY MEN in your church working to follow MAX LUCADO'S vision which is NOT a vision but the PATTERNISM of Promise Keepers.

http://www.geocities.com/hebrews928/pdx398.html

As far as I know Max Lucado is still the STALKING HORSE for a one world global church with OAK HILLS becoming the MOTHER CHURCH. Lynn Anderson in speaking of SHEPHERDING and DISCIPLING uses the Promise Keepers plan.

If YOU have compromised your DEEPEST secrets and trusted them to AN AGENT then you can LIVE WITH BLACKMAIL and GO TO HELL or you can CONFESS that you have a WARRIOR HANDLER and get yourself out from under SATANIC CONTROL which MUST SEEK to unite as many churches as possible because he is FRANTIC because TIME IS SHORT.

The LANGUAGE is VERY violent Rubel Shelly: Much less do they care to know about our fratricidal wars over the authority of elders, instrumental music in worship, whether to be having unity forums like this, or versions of the Bible.

If, thereafter, you question elders, instruments etc., YOU are grouped along with the FRATRICIDALS or BROTHER MURDERERS. If YOU question the introduction of INSTRUMENTS, why, YOU will be seen like FIRE BOMBERS of Restaurants, or MUGGERS of ladies wearing FURS!

Ken Sublett whose bird brain has been big enough to keep away from the CONFESSIONAL which is the SECRET AGENTS of the enemy trying to get CONTROL over you and YOUR church.

I was thinking that perhaps someone may have spoken with one of the elders of Oak Hills [Community—per Max’s “implication”] Church to support charges that Ken’s “statement was pure speculation on [his] part.”

Here are some of Max Lucado’s [bulleted … and italicized] statements—not Ken Sublett’s speculation:

• “As the details of this vision crystallized for me, I shared them with our elders. They prayed, pondered, and tested the ideas and, ultimately saw them as God's will for Oak Hills.”
  
  Was it Max who had the “vision” or was it the elders? Did Max share the “details of the vision” with the elders or vice versa? I wonder HOW LONG the elders prayed, pondered and tested the “ideas.” Did the elders really have to ponder and test scripturally approved ideas or “just go for it”? What is the implication in the clause that the elders “ultimately saw them as God’s will for Oak Hills”? ULTIMATELY SAW—Hmmm!
  
  
• “If we grow no faster than our current annual rate of 12%, 10,000 people will gather on this campus in around seven years! May God work even faster.”
  
  “Faster than our current annual rate of 12%”—sounds “Saddlebacky” and arrogant to me. Doesn’t Rick Warren’s Saddleback Community Church in California have an attendance/membership of at least 16,000? I see—Max Lucado’s Oak Hills Church in Texas is expected to have 10,000 attendants from the Community Mother Church and its satellite campus families.
  
  
• “Another major initiative is excellent pastoral care. Our elders are facing their privilege with renewed vigor. They are re-evaluating and re-organizing, seeking to shepherd the church through Life Groups.”
  
  What is there to re-organize? Are we expecting an ORG CHART showing the arch-shepherd over the other 15 elders (excuse me!—it’s “shepherds” now … elders or bishops are not “politically correct” in the religious sense)? What “Life Groups”—as opposed to “Death Groups”?
  
  
• “Let's ask the Holy Spirit to make His church a house of sterling vessels in the midst of our spotted society.”
  
  Is it the church of the Holy Spirit that Max is referring to? Is Max asking for intervention or direct influence of the holy Spirit of God upon each individual? Is Max asking for intervention or direct influence of the Holy Spirit person upon the congregation?
  
  
• “Recognizing the power of contemporary music, these new assemblies will be instrumental. A soft keyboard beneath an altar call, the sound of a cello during communion service...these tools enhance outreach. After fifteen years and several thousand sermons, I am convinced instrumentation reaches hearts.”
  
  Contemporary Christian (Rock) Music! The sound of a cello during communion service! Instrumental Music! Don’t forget The Choir!
  
  
• “Let's expand into a multi-site church, establishing Oak Hills campuses in other sections of the city. These satellite churches will, at least initially, be a part of the Oak Hills family. Think in terms of Oak Hills as a multi-site congregation consisting of Oak Hills East, South, and so on. Envision 150-200 trained and commissioned members targeting other sections of our city. … Our multi-site churches could stay linked together by viewing a video of the sermon from the ‘mother church.’”
  
  Mother Church! Oh, brother!
  
  
• “We can reach more souls by modifying "Oak Hills Church of Christ" to "Oak Hills Church". … While we deeply appreciate our heritage in the Churches of Christ, we recognize the hindrance the name creates for some.”
  
  Appreciate our heritage? No, you don’t! “Brotherhood” is restrictive, limited, exclusive, discriminating WHEREAS “fellowship” is expansive, non-discriminatory [i.e., interdenominational], and OPEN! We now accept Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christian Scientists and Adventists, etc., into our fellowship—we’d better … right!
  
  
• “Won't this decision negatively impact our relationship with other Churches of Christ? Other churches have successfully made the shift. We do not expect our interaction with churches and institutions among Churches of Christ to dip significantly. Even if it does, however, other churches are not our target audience. Lost souls are.”
  
  What OTHER successful churches, Max? Never mind—you’re imitating Saddleback and Willow Creek. Won’t negatively impact the “brotherhood”—right again, Max. We already know—you are going to “ultimately” leave the “church of Christ.” Don’t take too many folks along with you, OK?
  
  
• “The arrivals of Scott Hanson and Brad Tuggle are monumental blessings. … It is time to strengthen our team even further, however, so we announce our decision to seek an associate pulpit/singles minister. We will not hire him as ‘the future Senior Minister.’ … Scott Hanson is formulating a search strategy to locate the right man.”
  
  So, Scott Hanson is not currently an elder, but he is strategizing the search for the “associate … what”? If I were you, Max, I would leave the selection to the elders. But again, which is more intimidating: (1) the elders taking the initiative in selecting the “wrong” associate minister for you, or (2) you asking the elders to select the associate based on your own criteria?
  
  
• “We, for the first time, ‘swapped pulpits’ with Trinity Baptist Church. This was a major move and we came to it cautiously. I remember Charles Prince preaching on the topic of Christian unity and urging us to ‘not consult our fears.’”
  
  I wonder if this “swapping pulpits” has been one of the things that the elders had to do some praying, pondering and testing for success. And ULTIMATELY SAW the light!
  
  
• “God has given us our vision. The call to be a city-impacting church has come through loud and clear. Our elders enjoy an uncommon unity and conviction. The ministers, without exception, enthusiastically embrace this vision. Our marching orders are in hand.”
  
  Let’s review. It was originally Max’s VISION. The call was for Oak Hills to be a Community Church. It was proposed (hypnotically and subtly) to the 16 elders. I wonder if the vote was evenly split—in this case, it would be a speculation to call it a win for 8 elders. Well, whether it was a 9-to-7 vote in favor or better, that would not be speculation. The opposing 7 or fewer shouldn’t have mattered. The 7 in OPPOSITION or 4 in OPPOSITION?—amazing! … Never mind!
  

Donnie Cruz

Ken and Donnie,

It is obvious that the Elders at Oak Hills have made decisions with which you do not agree. There are aspects of their decision that I do not agree with as well. However, my point in this thread is that Ken, in his continued effort to demonize the man, has made that statement (repeatedly) that Max Lucado intimidated the Elders into the decision.

I asked for proof that would corraborate this allegation. None has been forthcoming from Ken, simply speculative statements that because the Elders were presented ideas by Lucado and discussed, thought, wrestled and made a decision, that this somehow equates to "intimidation." I do not know if either one of you have ever been Elders, but I can tell you that it is not unusual for ministers to come to Elders with ideas. It is not unusual for Elders to discuss, wrestle and struggle with ideas before making a decision. None of this, without more, equates to intimidation. There is no way around it.

Carry on all you want about the decision being unfortunate, ill-advised, unbiblical or wrong, but continued untruths about "intimidation" only takes from your credibility.

Tom

Tom,

The issue is not the elders’ decisions with which I do not agree. The issue is with the elders’ decisions which are contrary to the scriptures—at Oak Hills Church, Woodmont Hills Family or whatever Hills it is. Perhaps, you’re correct that the renowned Max Lucado, who has 28 million books in publication and is a great speaker—I haven’t heard him speak, but I can only speculate—did not intimidate the elders. However, I must contend that the intimidating factor was/is ever present when Max speaks or proposes his vision. And I can forget about the legal aspect of how intimidation or speculation should be defined. It is a right that any individual has in his freedom of speech.

And … know what? Elders grounded in the truth will not succumb to such unscriptural innovations. If elders are grounded in the truth, they will not be intimidated. Take your pick. There’s no way that the truth should ever be compromised in the name of numerical church growth.

Tom, let me say this respectfully. You’ve concentrated too much on picking out the word “intimidation” or “speculation”—and not on the message that prominent change agents operating in the brotherhood are subversive in their efforts to transform congregations at their command. (Caution: please don’t make “at their command” a new issue here.)

Part of your concluding statement is a great suggestion: CARRY ON ALL YOU WANT ABOUT THE DECISION BEING UNFORTUNATE, ILL-ADVISED, UNBIBLICAL OR WRONG. That’s what we’ve been doing all along. We will continue to do just that.

Donnie

I read some of Max Lucado's books and felt pretty good about them. I decided to search out on the internet what I could find about him. I came across this forum and I have hear some discouraging information.

After a life of being in Mormonism, someone introduced me to Christ. Such freedom, such joy, I never knew it possible. The greatest thing was that there was nothing between me and the Lord. He could direct me by his word and his Spirit.

Am I to understand that Max Lucado and his church want to place me once again under the authority of a man in one of the life groups? Am I wrong in believing that the church is directed by the pastor, and our personal lives are a personal thing, only between God and us?

His words, his books sound like freedom. But, no one will ever stand between me and God again. Thanks

Don't be fooled by the PRAYER PARTNER stuff: this is just psychological violence because it PLANS to divert people from the SCHOOL of Christ into the PARA-MILITARY PK organization. When the AGENTS just cooly take over a church you know that you are under a MILITIA MENTALITY. Here is the NEW PLAN which so far has very few PLATOON leaders it seems for such troublers.

--------------------------------
ENLIST
POOL INTERESTED SOLDIERS TO FORM A SMALL FIGHTING FORCE

Just ask. You don't know unless you ask. Post an invitation, pray, and watch for the SOLDIERS. The soldiers might be friends, or friends of friends. They might come from the cubicles near yours. Maybe, you recruit a neighbor, or a few guys at church who've been thinking of starting the same thing. But, you enlist the guys and you get going! There is work to be done.

ASSEMBLIES
REGULAR MEETINGS WITH A BASE, TIME, AND ORDER DETERMINED BY THE UNIT

Once the soldiers are identified, a convenient place to call Headquarters must be decided on and made public. Assemblies should be consistent in their duration. Some personalities are particularly responsive to a relatively predictable agenda (your Standard Operating Procedures).

RADAR
AN AWARENESS OF COMMUNITY NEEDS, A PASTOR'S NEEDS, ETC.

To be effective, your platoon must develop acute radar awareness of its surroundings, even the subtleties. A team attuned to the well being of local PASTORS and other leaders, to the culture of their HIGH SCHOOLs, and to the heartbeat of their neighborhood is a team properly positioned for its course of action.

SPECIALIZATION
A REPORT SYSTEM

A series of specialty codes will assign soldiers to various responsibilities. Specialization is intended to ensure successful Bible study, good food, consistent communication, the promotion of camaraderie, and community outreach endeavors. Specializations should revolve around the guys' interests, gifts, and responsibilities, and the goals of the PLATOON.

WING MAN
A PARTNER IN ACCOUNTABILITY

Every one of us needs a Wing Man because we encounter obstacles everywhere; struggles left and right. And, we can all be somebody's Wing Man. It means, "I've got your back." And, "I'll do all I can to keep you from slipping up!" To be a good Wing Man, you've got to care enough to speak up when you see your buddy drifting from the Mission: God's glory. You're praying AND asking the hard questions. You're challenging one another to continue to serve the guys you're working to reach for Christ. You're encouraging and accepting one another. Sure, it's tough. It's never easy to push each other out of the dark. But, a good Wing Man can have life-changing influence.

THREE AREAS OF OPERATION
YOUR PRIMARY TERRITORY FOR OUTREACH EFFORTS

The idea here is for your PLATOON to move beyond the MENTALITY of the average men's group. The objective is to have an OUTWARD EFFECT on those within specific demographic, relational, or geographical areas. Three TARGETS should be prayerfully defined. This will allow your men to focus, to ZERO IN and go to work. The three Areas of OPERATION revolve around the directives Jesus Christ presented to his disciples, as cited in the Scripture, Acts 1:8 [NIV]:

"…you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you;
and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem,
and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

The Jerusalem Challenge

Each one of us has been challenged to write down the names of three to five guys that we are committing to pray for, serve and ultimately bring to Christ. Work with your Platoon and keep each other accountable EVERY WEEK until every man on every platoon member's list is reached for Christ. Join with promise keepers EVERYWHERE in the effort to bring One Million Men to the Cross within the next couple of years.

The Judea and Samaria Challenge

Your platoon will mature to address the parts of your community that are most broken, dangerous, and depleted. Some platoons will consider this a quarterly objective met by outreach projects. Smaller task forces may look to establish relationships and share the gospel. Now, you're on the front lines.

The World Challenge

With your Platoon's God-given resources, you are to step out to reach the world. YES, the WORLD! The fulfillment of this challenge could take any of LIMITLESS FORMS. Creatively explore your options for directly or less directly sharing true life with 'the ends of the earth'.

http://www.promisekeepers.org/2003/2003130.htm

Search for Max Lucado at Promise Keepers

http://www.promisekeepers.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi?terms=max+lucado

See MAX LUCADO as one of the CHANGED:

http://www.promisekeepers.org/conf/bios/confbios293.htm

Se Myths and Facts about PK:

http://erights4all.com/now/winterparknow/pkeepers.htm

Ken

Dear Brother Wayne Jackson. I am not associated with the PK organization in any way. I am a member of Richland Hills Church of Christ. I attended PK meetings 2-3 times when the events were held in the Dallas-Fort Worth areas, so I have a first hand personal experience of the activities conducted. I wish to state my observations concerning this Movement in response to your post. I am not speaking for any one but for myself, as a believer in Jesus Christ. I will put all my personal comments in the brackets […] so that any reader can easily distinguish between your original statements [and my response]. Here are your statements:

This brief article is not intended to be a detailed review of the flaws of PK. Rather, we call attention to but four [or five] of the false ideas promoted by the administration of this organism.

1. The PK leaders contend for a supernatural operation of the Holy Spirit – when no such experience is available today. [You may not have observed such an experience, but is the supernatural operation of the Holy Spirit defined by your, my, or any human experience? Is it not presumptuous for anyone to make such a statement?] While miraculous revelation and signs were a part of the apostolic experience in the first century, those wonders were removed from the church’s possession when the New Testament canon was completed (1 Cor. 13:8-10; see our article on Miracles in the Archives section of this site) [Brother Wayne Jackson, how do you conclude that the Holy Spirit does not operate supernaturally any more from this passage? Would you please explain?]

Today, there is not one fact that anyone knows about the character of God, the life and work of Jesus Christ, the gospel, or what God’s will for man is – except that which is learned from the Bible. No person has ever been discovered – in any remote region of the earth – who knows anything of these matters, if he has been totally isolated from the influence of the written Word [True, I agree. Can God still communicate with us today, in addition to the written Word? Yes? No?].

And yet the PK literature suggests just the reverse of this. It is even contended that “the idea for Promise Keepers was planted in the heart” of Bill McCartney (emp. WJ). By whom? [By the Sprit of Jesus, who lives in him and in all believers (Colossians 1:27, 2:9, 10, 3:1-4; Galatians 2:20, Romans 5:10; John 12:24-26,14:12-14, 10:16, 27-30).] Do “ideas” exist apart from words or other communicative symbols? [God used words, intelligible languages to communicate his message to man. His words are recorded in the Bible for us to read, respond, and live by. But is He limited to communicate to mankind through the Bible only? No, certainly not. He communicated also through dreams, visions, donkey, small still voice, concept, conscience, 9/11, wars, natural catastrophes, events, etc. Did any of these incidents require words or human language? Not necessarily. How does your head communicate with your body? With words? You might speak to yourself at times, but do you always speak to your hands and tell them not to tremble when you have had too much coffee? Do you tell your eyes to blink or not to blink? How does the head of the church communicate with his body? Are all God’s communications with man recorded in the Bible? No. Is your receiver turned on or tuned to the right station?] If they do not, might not one then conclude that Mr. McCartney claims a “divine revelation” for the origin of PK? [We are free to draw a right or wrong conclusion on anything. Any body could be said to have received a “divine revelation.” The question is how does one know whether such a claim or conclusion is true, false, or from God? I will go to Deuteronomy 13:1-5, 18:20-22; Matthew 7:15-23; 1Corinthians 12:3, 3:12-15; 1John 4:1-3, 5:9-12; and Galatians 5:19-26, then think, sleep, and ask God about that for a few days. I will do more in-depth Bible search. I might run the matter through some Godly persons whom I respect and look for confirmations from them. The Spirit of God will bear witness with my spirit if I am on the right track or not, most of the times. I am still learning. God is not through with me yet. Is He already through with you?]

2. The PK administrators have no respect for the New Testament concept of the church of Jesus Christ. [That is not true. Your NT concept of the church is different than theirs, but they do have a deep respect for all local churches.] In the first century there were no denominations. There was “one body” (1 Cor. 12:20; Eph. 4:4), and that body was the church (Eph. 1:22-23; Col. 1:18, 24). [True.] Denominationalism is an apostate aberration that originated centuries after the cessation of divine revelation (2 Thes. 2:1ff; 1 Tim. 4:1ff). [Not exactly. The seed of division was already present while the apostles were still alive (1Corinthians 3:1-9; Acts 15:1-21, 20:28-31; Galatians 2:11-21; Romans 14:1-23). Jesus prayed for the unity of his believers and specifically stated that his love and his presence will be in his believers to make unity a reality (John 17: 20-26).] The PK organization asserts an ecumenical theory regarding the church that is entirely contrary to New Testament doctrine.

[I beg to differ, Brother Wayne Jackson. The PK organization does not assert an ecumenical theory. PK demonstrates what the unity of the Spirit, in the bond of peace, really is. I personally witnessed men of God put in practice the doctrines taught in the Bible. They did not just simply talk a good talk. I saw men walk the walk, the things that the church of our common heritage and we have failed to do. My spirit was deeply stirred and my eyes were filled with tears when I saw men, by the thousands, convicted by the Spirit and the Word, confessed sins one to another, the hurt and bitterness that existed in their hearts for years and generations between the Black and the White, the Native American Nations and the children of the settlers (referring to you and me!) who took away their land, the sins of our divisions between churches, our silence on the killing of the unborn babies, our failure to do the right thing, as the body of Christ, as leaders, as fathers, as husbands, as a nation under God on the issues of slavery, discrimination, prejudice, divorce, abortion, and pornography. Macho men, of different ethnic origins, cultures, languages, denominations, hugged each other’s neck, wept openly before God, fell on their knees, confessing, asking God for forgiveness of their sins, willing to restore their long broken relationships. They asked for strength to keep their promises, their wedding vows, to be the husbands, fathers, and men that God has created them to be. There were numerous denominations represented at every PK event. Not once was anyone ever asked to compromise one’s personal convictions. Our doctrinal differences and diversity were still there, but the most striking thing I witnessed was the presence of the Spirit of forgiveness, acceptance, and reconciliation. Men humbled themselves before the Almighty God. These are what 2 Chronicles 7:14 and Christ himself teach. These are what the PK men believe and practice. Do you have a better idea of addressing all these issues?]

The PK system, therefore, does not promote genuine biblical unity; rather, it fosters sectarian division [Absolute a false statement. What is a genuine Biblical unity? Unity is in the Spirit, in the bond of peace (Ephesians 4:3, 12, 13). Unity is not uniformity. Diversity is still there, designed by God for His own purpose. Differences and struggles are not going away. Do you want to see a perfect unity in the brotherhood of believers? Read and practice Colossians 3:1-17. Do you know why unity is not present in a lot of churches? The answer found in verse14. Tell me what is missing? At PK gatherings, there is unity in the Spirit. There is peace. There is love. Jesus who is our life made these all possible.] It is strikingly at variance with the prayer of Jesus (Jn. 17:20-21) [What PK does is absolutely a personification of Jesus’ prayer], and the admonition of the Lord’s apostle (1 Cor. 1:10). The PK philosophy of “support your local denomination” is completely misdirected.

[Wayne, do you have a list of names and addresses of properly directed, non-denominated New Testament churches available? Please publish it so people can find them. Is it the ones with the sign: “The Church of Christ Meet Here?” Or, “The True Apostolic Church of the New Testament in Jesus Christ?” Would your list be the same as those compiled by other believers? Will your list still be the same thirty or fifty years from now? So your congregation, with the sign (Something) Church of Christ, is not a denomination? Do you live in La-La Land? Has it ever occurred to you that every church and every congregation is denominated? No church, nor a few churches, represents the whole or the entire body of Christ. Do you know of a perfect church? The crucial issues concerning any denomination are: Who is the Christ? Where is Christ in that church? Is that church united with Christ who is the head? I see a lot of dead bodies, decapitated from the head. These churches fit the profile of those whom Jesus spoke to in John 5:39, 40. Am I one of those? Are you? Does he still speak to us? He is now actually speaking to his church. Is his word not alive and active? Do you not recognize his voice? (John 6:63; Hebrews 4:12,13.)]

3. The PK emphasis on “male” togetherness, as a formalized movement, finds no scriptural sanction. [The sanction is found in Mathew 18:20.] In Christ, we are neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female (Gal. 3:28) [In some aspects, i.e., national, ethnic, economic, and gender barriers have been neutralized by Christ to create a new and unique body of believers, the church, yes. On the other hand, try to wear your wife’s skirt and put on her lipstick when you go to work tomorrow, or join a ladies’ Bible class in your church, and see for yourself if any aspect of the gender distinction in Christ still applies today. Men can’t meet with other men? Need we debate this point?]

What if someone aspires to establish an “all-white” movement, designated as the “Caucasian Covenant Keepers”? The outcry would be vociferous, and rightly so! [Yes, the churches in America had done exactly just that for over two hundred years, and there was no outcry. The “All-White” churches in the United States practiced “see no evil, hear no evil” for several generations until a Godly President had enough courage to make the change. You can call him a “change agent,” if you like. He was one. He did what God had appointed him to do. After a bitter Civil War, the wrong continued for another hundred years. The sin was horrific. Men of the PK Movement sought to heal that wound. Many men were set free from such bitterness and found God’s grace in forgiveness.] If a para-church movement, segregated along racial lines, is unacceptable, where is the value in gender exclusion – in pursuing spiritual goals? [Gender exclusion? Do you have men’s business meetings in your church? Do women in your church insist on attending these meetings? Why not? PK meeting is a gigantic men’s business meeting, long over due.] PKism is a fad with no biblical basis [Some people have eyes but cannot see. They have ears but cannot hear or understand (Matthew 13:10-15). “By their fruit, you shall know them” (Matthew 7:15-20). Examine the fruit. The PK Movement has transformed countless men and churches. PK event is a place where men from every denomination, every walk of life, every ethnicity, every age, and every economic status can come clean on issues infesting all churches before God and before each other and encourage one another to do what is right. If there were a church that all believers can be drawn together, there would be no need for PK. Since none exists, God moved Godly men to create a neutral ground where reconciliation and acceptance of one another in the Lord can be practiced. No Biblical basis? Think again. Nothing pleases Satan more than seeing believers of Jesus Christ and churches combating each other, keeping each other at arm length, and having nothing to do with each other. PK Movement builds bridges and tears down walls. Naysayers rather keep their walls and tear down the bridges.]

4. The PK dogma is wholly at odds with New Testament teaching relative to the plan of redemption. [False.] Advocates of “PK-ology” promote the so-called “Sinner’s Prayer.” They allege that salvation occurs the instant the following words are mouthed: [What does Roman 10:8-13 say? Explain it away? When is a person saved? When he believes? Another says no, at repentance. One says at confession, and another says at baptism. Some say before the foundation of the world. Some say, “We’ll never know until Jesus comes again.” Another says, “You ‘d better not die before you have confessed every sin, or you go straight to Hell.” Who is right? Could all be right? Aren’t there scriptures to support every single position I have just cited? Shall we pitch one scripture against another? Do you have the right theological formula, i.e., believe, repent, confess, baptized = salvation? Are you a false teacher if you are wrong? Am I? Where is Jesus in this debate? Lord where are you? Please help us understand you, the eternal life, how to have the eternal life, and how to live an eternal life right now. Show us, Lord. Start with me first.]

“God, I confess to you that I am a sinner. And, through faith, I invite your Son into my heart this very moment, to save my soul.” [Do you have a problem with this prayer? Would you like to offer a different prayer? Please do, if you would.]

5. Though many who offer such a petition are unquestionably sincere, there is no New Testament precedent for this sort of prayer. [Tell me I pray, what precedent does one need to pray? Please enlighten me, brother.] Moreover, in spite of explicit biblical evidence to the contrary, PK officials are adamant that immersion in water has nothing to do with one’s salvation (cf. Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Pet. 3:21) This is nothing short of heresy. [Documentation please. I believe PK organizers are familiar with the great commission. They know what Jesus has commanded. I have not heard any one teach against water baptism, but whether “water baptism” equals salvation, or not, is definitely a theological, debatable point. The dispute has gone on for a few hundred years. Do you think it will end tomorrow?]

Finally, this query must be raised. In view of the foregoing (and much more), how could anyone – who possesses a fundamental level of Bible knowledge – endorse or support the PK enterprise? [I do. I endorse and support the PK Movement.] And yet some, who should have known better, have done so. It is to their shame. [I am not ashamed of the PK organization. It is quite different from any YMCA I have visited. I will encourage men to attend a PK event, anytime, anywhere.]

[For any one who thinks that PK was just a figment of Bill McCartney’s imagination, let me point this out to you. Since the world began, there has never been an event where a larger number of men (over one million) gathered in one place to seek God’s face, worship, repent, and renew their commitment to Christ Jesus and to their spouses. That event took place a few years ago in Washington, D. C. Have you ever heard the voices of over one million men gathered in one place, singing praise to God? I have. I don’t know if I will ever hear it again in this life on earth. I was there and witnessed the most awesome presence of the Lord in our midst. Jesus promised he would be there (Matthew 18:19, 20). He was there at work, convicting and renewing his seekers. Bill McCartney, by himself, could not have pulled this event out of his own sleeves. He and others who were called to serve with him were faithful and mighty servants. Jesus used them and was highly honored and exalted.]

We do not question the pure motives of thousands of men who are seeking some enhancement for their family relationships. We do affirm, however, – and emphatically so – that Promise Keepers is not the answer. [What then is the answer? I do affirm also that what you are doing here is “emphatically not the answer either,” to say the least.] We are sufficiently “rooted and builded up” in our relationship with Christ (Col. 2:6-7), and His divine organism, the church. [Is it one and the same as a Christian synagogue? Wayne, go to a PK event in 2004 and see the Lord at work in the hearts of men, if you have not witnessed such an occurrence in your church lately. Then tell the world again what’s right or wrong with this Movement, my dear Brother Wayne Jackson.]

Chai Voraritskul
1/5/2004.

Chai,

I personally appreciate your post in response to Wayne Jackson’s initial article and for “bravely” identifying yourself as a member of Richland Hills, as well as your personal experience with the PK Movement.

As brother Jackson’s article has already pointed out, the sincerity of the PK leaders, as well as of the Movement’s participants, including yours, is not in question. He has also pointed out that the “BRIEF article is NOT intended to be a DETAILED review of the flaws of PK.” With all due respect to you and your well-expressed “emotional” experiences as one of the thousands or millions of participants in this program, let me say that you have missed the main objective as to why the article was posted in the first place. However, I would not totally discredit the effort put into your narrative. You have helped me clearly identify yourself as one who, IMO, no longer supports the fundamental teachings we find in the Scripture concerning the New Testament church and church unity, even God’s scheme of redemption.

To summarize your narrative, much of your verbiage has to do with your own personal experience—I can’t change that or have no desire to comment on it. A portion has to do with points that we already agree on—no comments there, either. And I’m already very familiar with many of your arguments—the same arguments that proponents of the Change Movement hold and are without scriptural basis. May I suggest that you spend time browsing certain threads on this board dealing with specific topics that relate to items you brought up for discussion?

I’ll make an exception to the aforementioned paragraph, though. Your understanding of the supernatural operation of the Holy Spirit today caught my attention—and let me comment on this a bit. The original article stated that “no such experience is available today”—not to the PK leaders.

I would say that it is not necessary to provide more scriptures than I Cor. 13:8-10 to prove the cessation of the supernatural operation of the Holy Spirit upon the apostles. Do you believe in “apostolic succession” as the Roman Catholic Church does? If God can still communicate with us, i.e., in the sense of knowing His will for the church or a group of believers other than through the written Word, how else does God do this? (Let’s not get this confused with the believer’s one-on-one communication with the Father through prayer in the name of Jesus. Moreover, the gospel plan of salvation for the unconverted is plainly laid out in His Word, as well as principles and commands related to Christian living.) To suggest that “the idea for Promise Keepers was planted in the heart” of Bill McCartney is not anymore credible than the idea that God made a direct revelation to Joseph Smith to found the LDS Movement or to Ellen G. White and Mary Baker Eddy to establish their respective religious organizations. Your list of other communication channels between God and His church is ludicrous and absurd: donkey, still small voice, concept, body language, coffee effect, cell phone, winking, etc. [I certainly can add many more to your list.]

Chai, you brought up a lot of arguments irrelevant to the subject matter: the PK Movement. It will take endless debates over these various issues you presented. For now, let me just provide you with the direct link to the original article as follows:

http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/promiseKeepers.htm

The web link has provision for “Comments on this page!” If you wish to go this route, you may simply copy-and-paste your narrative from this thread or from your own saved file.

Donnie Cruz

Donnie, Thank you for your response to my post on the PK Movement. I have copied my response to Wayne Jackson’s web site, in the comment section, as you have suggested. I will wait for his reply. I won’t hold my breath if he doesn’t respond.

I am very aware of the numerous issues facing our brotherhood today, brother. Jesus is our Master and Lord. He is the author of our salvation (Hebrews 2:10-18) and he is the Eternal Life in us (John 17:1-3, 26; Romans 5:10; Galatians 2:20; Colossians 1:27, 2:9; 3:4). We speak a message of wisdom among the mature. We have the Mind and the Spirit of Christ (1Corinthains 2:6-16). We all want what he wants, the unity and harmony in the Spirit of his believers (John 17:20-26). We must understand, however, what unity in the Spirit in the bond of peace is. How can all believers become one, as Christ and the Father are one? Husband and wife are supposed to be one (Ephesians 5:22-33; Matthew 19:4-6) A lot of husbands and wives are anything but one. There is no peace, love, one-ness of the mind or the spirit. There is no unity in our brotherhood either. Why? What’s missing? The answer, Colossians 3:14 in the context of 3: 1-17.

I wish to respond to your comments and questions. You wrote: [I reply].

You [Chai] have helped me [Donnie] clearly identify yourself as one who, IMO, no longer supports the fundamental teachings we find in the Scripture concerning the New Testament church [Here are what I support or don’t support. “We are ‘Christians only’,” yes. “We are ‘the only Christians’,” no. “We are the Lord’s church,” yes. “We are the only Lord’s church,” no. “Salvation is found in Christ and Christ alone; anything else is a heresy,” yes. “Salvation is found in the church,” no. I believe the current main stream of our brotherhood has been brain washed by well meaning but misguided elders, preachers, teachers, and church leaders. They feed their flocks, and their flocks respect and trust them. This is normal. Even animals instinctively do the same. But we are not animals. We are created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26, 27). We must pursue truth and the truth will set us free (John 8:31, 32). We must discern what is right and wrong. We must know that our parents and our benefactors are not infallible. They too can be sincerely wrong.]

[We all face the same dilemma when the doctrine handed down to us is being challenged and questioned. This is a part of our growth process. God wants us to own our own faith, and do our own thinking. Getting mad is not the answer. What is the answer? First, studying the Word and investigating the matter carefully, on our own, one more time. Our loyalty is first in Christ Jesus and the Bible (John 12:44-50; KJV, 1Corinthians 4:6). Greek Mythology, pagan literature, human opinion, and church theology should play little or no part in my search for the truth. My first priority is finding answers to these questions: “What does the Bible say?” “How does the text read?” “What does it mean?” And let the chips fall where they may. Then, we all must ask and decide. “Where is my loyalty?” Am I more loyal to Jesus and the Word than to my benefactors who taught me and gave me this heritage? This is not an easy choice for any of us. Unless Jesus is real to me and I walk with him and know him personally, they (my benefactors) are my Jesus.]

[What do most traditional Churches of Christ believe in the last 40 years? “Salvation is in the church. If you don’t belong to that church, you will go straight to hell.” What does the New Testament teach? “Salvation is in Christ and Christ alone” (100 % by him at the cross; zero % you, or me, the church.) There is absolutely nothing we can do to contribute to or take away from what Jesus has done. Salvation is a free, gracious gift from God. Everything else is legalism. This point is ever so subtle, but so deadly. Every one must decide. No decision is still a decision.]

[What is the Church of Christ? “Is it the only one true representation of the NT church of Jesus Christ?” Most of my brothers and sisters in the traditional CoC will affirm that. But, is that so? Are we not audacious and ignorant in making such an assumption? Even Elijah, one of the mightiest prophets of God, suffered from the same syndrome (1Kings 19:10), and God corrected him (vs. 18). Since when have we all agreed among ourselves to such an assertion? Who speaks for me? Who speaks for the Churches of Christ? Do you speak for Madison? Does Kenneth Sublett speak for you on the subject of music? Before God, do you agree with everything Kenneth has written? Frankly, the problem of unity is not because of our differences on disputable matters. The real problem is the lack of Godly love and acceptance among us, Donnie. That’s why we don’t have unity (Colossians 3:14). How then can all men know that we are Jesus’ disciples (John 13: 34, 35)?]

I would say that it is not necessary to provide more scriptures than I Cor. 13:8-10 to prove the cessation of the supernatural operation of the Holy Spirit upon the apostles. [Let’s look at 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 and see what it says, Donnie.]

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease [Have all prophecies ceased?]; where there are tongues, they will be stilled [Have all tongues been stilled?]; where there is knowledge, it will pass away [Has knowledge passed away? If not, neither have prophecies and tongues. If the latter two items have been done away with, so must knowledge. What is it? I believe they are all still here with us. Read on.]

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. [What is “perfection”? It is either (#1) The revealed Word, the Bible, or (#2) The second coming of Christ, the restoration of all things, and our life in heaven with God. If it is #1, then the imperfection, i.e., prophecies, tongues, and knowledge, must all have been done away with. Since knowledge is still here, how can one say only the first two items have been done away? How does your Bible read? What is your answer, #1, or #2? I am leaning toward #2.]

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. [When do we become a fully matured, spiritual man, at #1, or #2? I believe, #2. When do we see God face to face? Definitely #2.]

Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. [The Bible is already here (#1), but do we know (God and everything) fully as we are fully known? No. When will that happen? Only at #2.] And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love. [Faith and hope will be done away or fulfilled at #2. We will not have to live by faith and hope any more. Love, however, continues for eternity. Why is love the greatest of all? It is God’s attribute. Without love, unity in the church is not possible, and the world can never know that we are Jesus’ disciples. The Bible (#1) has been with us for nearly 2000 years, and we still operate by faith, hope, and love. We need all three to sustain us daily. When #2 is here, all prophecies shall cease, tongues will be stilled, knowledge as we know it today will pass away. We will be completely fully-grown. We will see God face to face. We will no longer live by faith or hope, but love will abide forever. All of these things point to #2. None points to #1. Am I wrong?]

[Why then do the majority of the traditional Churches of Christ maintain that supernatural activities have ceased? It is through our experience, observation, theology, and church doctrine developed and crystallized over several decades. Our brotherhood, along with other mainline churches, Baptists, Methodists, and Presbyterians included, reacted similarly against the abuses of the spiritual gifts they saw in the Pentecostal Movement. We even stopped mentioning about the Holy Spirit in the 50’s to 70’s. We marked and disfellowshiped Pat Boone for his claim of the gift of tongues. All arguments against him were observational, doctrinal, theological, but not scriptural. No one, to this day, has provided a single scriptural reference showing Jesus and his Spirit have changed their modus operandi since the church was established. Sorry, 1 Corinthians 13: 8-13 is not it. Keep on looking.]

[How then should we respond to false prophets? We still see and hear false prophets making false prophecies very day. We see fake tongue speaking, and we hear gibberish by those who claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit. We sense that they are counterfeit and they are deceptive. We want to say with certainty that they are wrong. The best proof text around is 1 Corinthians 13: 8-13. Incidentally, the fact that we see counterfeits, testifies that the real McCoy exists. Counterfeit exists because the real McCoy exists, and has value. Why do we encounter a fake $20 bill every now and then? Are $20 bills still in circulation? Do they have any value? Has anyone ever seen a $25 bill? Why not? It is not a legal money. It has no value. Why counterfeit some thing that does not exist or has no value?]

[Does God still perform miracles today? So you have never seen one? Are the activities of the Holy spirit defined or dependent on our observation, experience, or theology? No. Do people still prophesize? Yes. How do we know if it is from God? I will check them out if what they say concerns me. Do people still claim to speak in tongues? Yes, but Paul said, “Do not forbid tongue speaking, but everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way” (1 Corinthians 14:39, 40). I speak four dialects in Chinese, Thai, Lao, and some English. I don’t have the gift of tongues, and don’t have any desire to possess it, thank you. I am doing just fine.]

Do you [Chai] believe in “apostolic succession” as the Roman Catholic Church does? [No, unless one can show me the credentials as stated in Acts 1:22, 23 and 2 Corinthians 12:12. Without these credentials, they are impostors. The church in Ephesus knew how to deal with impostors. Jesus commended them for it (Revelation 2:2). The Spirit of Jesus can perform miracles without his apostles, if he so chooses (Mark 16:17, 18; Hebrews 2:1-4). Show me one scripture that says he does not do that any more. If you don’t have one, then don’t be too quick to explain everything away. Can we say to God: “You can’t do that, Lord, you are messing up our cardinal doctrine of the Church of Christ”? And, when he does, should we try to discount it, or explain it away? God forbid. All God’s activities can be investigated, vindicated, and authenticated. Only a reprobate would repudiate them.]

If God can still communicate with us, i.e., in the sense of knowing His will for the church or a group of believers other than through the written Word, how else does God do this? [Do you have children? How do you communicate with each of your children? Do you communicate to a baby the same way you do with a teenager? God knows how to talk to you or me. Just talk to him and see. If you do not have an on-going twoway communication between your spirit and the Spirit of the Lord, you only know of him, but you don’t personally know him. How can you know a person intimately when you never have a dialogue, a heart to heart conversation, or a comfortable chat with that person on occasions? Is it possible for a Christian to have the Holy Spirit but not the personhood of Christ formed in him? Yes. See Galatians 3:1-5, 4:19, 20.]

(Let’s not get this confused with the believer’s one-on-one communication with the Father through prayer in the name of Jesus. [No, I am not confused. Prayer is not a one-way communication. He can communicate back to you instantaneously and at any time.] Moreover, the gospel plan of salvation for the unconverted is plainly laid out in His Word [true], as well as principles and commands related to Christian living [true].) To suggest that “the idea for Promise Keepers was planted in the heart” of Bill McCartney is not anymore credible than the idea that God made a direct revelation to Joseph Smith to found the LDS Movement or to Ellen G. White and Mary Baker Eddy to establish their respective religious organizations. [True. Claims are made all the times. Whenever claims are made, we test them against the written Word. If they are in harmony with the Scripture, good. If not, they are false. Consider each prophecy. Has it been fulfilled? It takes only one false prophecy to expose a false prophet (Deuteronomy 18:21, 22). Bill McCartney never claimed to be a prophet. What he received was no different than what Jesus does with all his believers since Acts 2 (Hebrew 13:8). God reveals His will to his servants, some times all at once, some times bit by bit. Over time, the entire picture unfolds. He will communicate with you the same way too. The reason you don’t have such an experience could be because your spiritual antenna was disconnected, your receiver was “off,” or you tuned to a wrong frequency. He kept broadcasting to you but you did not want to hear from him. He sent message after message to you. But, the results were always the same. “Return to sender. Address unknown. No such person…”]

Your list of other communication channels between God and His church is ludicrous and absurd: [The Bible is full of ludicrous stories to a great number of people. He will utilize everything convenient to him to educate and inform his people.] donkey [Numbers 22:21-35. Say not that God cannot do it again.], still small voice [1Kings 19:11-13], concept, body language, coffee effect, cell phone, winking, etc. (I certainly can add many more to your list.) [God is the Grand Master of drama. His imagination is limitless. God wastes nothing, and nothing is excluded from his repertoire. He uses lifeless objects as you mentioned. He orchestrates events in the magnitude of 9/11 or just someone’s body language as our wakeup calls. He will extract good out of everything, even from the acts of wicked men (Acts 2:22-24; Genesis 50:19-21; Jeremiah 22:1-23:6; Romans 9:14-33, 8:28) Make sure you love the Lord. Jesus promises: “Ask and ye shall receive” (Matthew 7:7). “You receive not, because you ask not” (James 4:2, 3). Ask the Lord for a real interactive communication line from him to you. A spiritual DSL line, not just a dial-up number is available through 1Thessalonians 5:16-24, to any believer. Ask him to confirm his presence in you. Ask him if he is alive and well in his church, at Madison, Richland Hills, or Hillcrest. Ask him if these changes are really from him or not. Ask him to show you where he is at work near you. Ask him how can you join in with him in his work. Ask him for a double portion of his grace to be upon you. See how he will answer any of these requests. Faint not.]

Chai Voraritskul
January 13, 2004.

I am confident that Mr. Cruz will supply a more than adequate response to your comments. However, I would like to interject one thing: being in Christ and being in the church are one and the same. One cannot be in Christ without being in His church and one cannot be in His church without being in Christ. Your statements... [“We are ‘Christians only’,” yes. “We are ‘the only Christians’,” no. “We are the Lord’s church,” yes. “We are the only Lord’s church,” no.] are contradictory with scripture. Eph. 1:22-23 says that Christ is the head over the church, which is His body. Eph. 4:4 says that there is one body; therefore, there is one church. Jesus said that He will build His church - not churches (Matt. 16:18). What determines whether or not we are in His body? It is not the sign that hangs over the door but whether fellowship with Christ exists. According to scripture, this is only accomplished through repentance and immersion. Upon doing this, the Lord adds us to His church - the collection or subset of mankind that is saved. This is not "brain washing" as you say, this is the word of God.

Mark Waggoner

You wrote: “…I would like to interject one thing: being in Christ and being in the church are one and the same” [True]. “One cannot be in Christ without being in His church and one cannot be in His church without being in Christ” [True]. “Your statements... [“We are ‘Christians only’,” yes. “We are ‘the only Christians’,” no. “We are the Lord’s church,” yes. “We are the only Lord’s church,” no.] are contradictory with scripture” [Not true. It may contradict with your currently understanding, but it does not contradict with the scripture.]. “Eph. 1:22-23 says that Christ is the head over the church, which is His body.” [True]. “Eph. 4:4 says that there is one body; therefore, there is one church.” [True]. “Jesus said that He will build His church - not churches (Matt. 16:18).” [True, “ekklesia,” singular, referring to the church, collectively and universally. In Matthew 18:17, Jesus mentioned the word “ekklesia” twice more in the same verse. This time, the same word: “ekklesia” is not used in the same universal sense, but in a narrower sense, referring to the church in a city or a congregation of believers, a local body of believers. What is the “ekklesia” of Jesus? The body of Christ (Colossians 1:24)]

“What determines whether or not we are in His body?” [Correction. We are not “in” his body. We are his body. My physical body is his body. He lives in me. He lives in you, and in all his believers (John 12:20-26; Galatians 2:20; Colossians 1:24-29, 3:1-4) Individually, we are his church, regardless of the fact that we are in the assembly or out of the assembly. Every person who is inhabited by the Spirit of Jesus is his temple and his church (1Corinthians 6:15-20; Romans 8:9-11; Colossians 1:24).]

“It is not the sign that hangs over the door but whether fellowship with Christ exists.” [True, It is not our sign, not our squawk, but our walk. Again, you point to the fellowship with Christ, I am pointing you, not to the fellowship, but to the life of Christ inside of us, you, me, and every believer. Christ manifests himself to the world through my (and every believer’s) warm body, which is his church and his temple (1Corinthians 3:16, 17; 6:15-20). When Jesus redeems a person from sin, he lives his life through that person (Romans 5:10; Galatians 2:20; John 17:26). He indwells his church, individually, congregationally, and universally. He actively communicates with his church.] “According to scripture, this is only accomplished through repentance and immersion.” [According to scripture, by grace through faith in Christ as God incarnated, a personal Savior, the Gift of God (Ephesians 2:8). This faith is expressed in the repentance, confession, immersion, and life’s transformation by the work of the Spirit of Jesus in his church, personally, collectively, and universally.] “Upon doing this, the Lord adds us to His church - the collection or subset of mankind that is saved.” [Acts 2:47, Amen.] “This is not ‘brain washing’ as you say, this is the word of God.” [Amen again. But you still have not answered my question, Mark. Where is our salvation? #1. In Christ and Christ alone. #2. In Christ and his church. #3. In the church. If your answer is not #1, and you don’t see the subtle implication, the distinction in each answer, and the consequence of each answer, you are not “brain washed,” Mark Waggoner. You are probably “brain dead.”]

Chai Voraritskul
January 14, 2004.

It's a shame when one must resort to name calling. Perhaps this shows the weakness of your position. We appear to be pretty much in agreement except when it comes to immersion. My interpretation of your comments is that you do not believe that it is essential to salvation (please correct me if I'm wrong). The New Testament states several "things" that save us: grace, faith, works, baptism, and, repentance. Can we cherry-pick the "things" we like or are all of these essential elements of salvation? There are subtle differences to your three choices but you're failing to acknowledge the fact that they are inseparable. The blood of Christ washes us from our sin in the waters of baptism as we are "baptized into His death" Romans 6:3-6 and "buried with Him" Col. 2:12. We are not baptized into any "church" because only the Lord adds the saved to His church. I say again, one is saved when genuine faith in Christ produces repentance, which then carries them through the waters of baptism - at which point, the Lord adds them to His church. What say you?

Mark Waggoner

Mark, I am so sorry for what I have done, resorting to name-calling. Will you please forgive me? It was uncalled for. Please accept my sincere apology, brother.

Concerning the subject of immersion, is it essential to salvation? Let me these two questions: What did Jesus command the apostles to do it just before his ascension (Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:15, 16)? Did the apostles and disciples of Jesus follow Jesus’ command and practice immersion in water? Read the book of Acts (Acts 2:38; 8:12, 8:36-39; 9:17, 18; 10:47, 48; 16:15, 33; 19:5; and 20:16). Baptism is a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. A believer is united with Jesus at water immersion (Romans 6:1-14). A believer is clothed with Christ at water immersion and becomes one with him (Galatians 3:26-28). A believer receives the Holy Spirit as a gift from God at water immersion (Acts 2:38, 39, 5:32).

There is absolutely no reason for me or any believer in the Lord to teach otherwise. Jesus has commanded it. The apostles did it. That settles it. Only a fool would create a new theology to negate what Jesus has commanded. Jesus did not say what he said in Matthew 7:21-23 just for the fun of it. Any one who wishes to debate the theology of baptism, whether it is essential to one’s salvation or not, is really having too much idle time. I teach what I know is the word of God. Nothing else matters.

You ask: “The New Testament states several "things" that save us: grace, faith, works, baptism, and, repentance. Can we cherry-pick the "things" we like or are all of these essential elements of salvation?” No. We do not cherry-pick any thing. Throughout the Bible, the OT as well as the NT, one of the major themes is: “The Just shall live by faith” (Habakkuk 2:4, Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 10:38). Paul went to a great length to explain when and how Abraham was justified by his faith (Romans 4:1-25). This is how all people who lived before Christ were justified. This is how everyone, both the Jews and the Gentiles, living after Christ has come, is also justified. There is only one plan of salvation, as stated in Romans 1:16, 17, 1 Corinthians 15:1-8, and Ephesians 2:4-10. “It is by grace, through faith, that we have all been saved, and not from ourselves, so that no one can boast.”

Confession of our sins, confession that Jesus is the Christ and Lord of our lives with our lips, repentance from sins, submitting to a water immersion, or any thing else we do, are all expressions of that faith, total confidence in Jesus, and what he tells us to do. We are not saved by any of our good works, before or after we believe. Our work (everything we do) is produced by faith, our labor is prompted by love, and our endurance is inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ (1Thessalonians 1:3). Faith, hope, and love are what we all live by (1Corinthians 13:13) until Jesus comes. We are saved by faith, not by work. Our work makes that faith evident to God and to man (James 2:14-26). James and Paul were not in a theological conflict. James forcefully confirmed that faith, which cannot be seen, testifies to its presence by work, which faith produces. The examples of those who lived by faith are given in Hebrews 11:1-40. They were all saved by faith. Their works declare the existence of that faith. You cannot see the wind. You know the wind is blowing when you see trees sway back and forth. Faith is like the wind. The swaying of the trees is the manifestation (the work) of that wind. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit (John 3:8). The Spirit is that wind. The changes that take place in a person are the works, or the fruit, that testify to the presence of the Spirit in one's life (Galatians 5:22-25).

You stated: “There are subtle differences to your three choices but you're failing to acknowledge the fact that they are inseparable. The blood of Christ washes us from our sin in the waters of baptism as we are "baptized into His death" Romans 6:3-6 and "buried with Him" Col. 2:12. We are not baptized into any "church" because only the Lord adds the saved to His church. I say again, one is saved when genuine faith in Christ produces repentance, which then carries them through the waters of baptism - at which point, the Lord adds them to His church. What say you?”

I say we are not in his church. We are his church. Christ is in me, in you, in all believers (John 17:26; Romans 5:10; Galatians 2:20; Colossians 1:27, 2:9, 10, 3:1-4). What is eternal life? “Now this is eternal life: that they (us) may know you (the Father), the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you (the Father) have sent” (John 17:3). The Eternal Life (Salvation) is now present in my physical warm body of flesh and blood, but I am not the author of that salvation. My salvation is a free gift I received from God through Jesus Christ. I am not the sun. I am the moon. I shine because the sun shines upon me and give me light. I am but a reflection of that light. I have no light within myself. The church has salvation (light), but that salvation is from the Son, and a reflection of that light from and life of the Son. The church has no the power to save. The power to save is in the Son, who inhabits the church, which is his physical body on earth today (John 12:24).

“I tell you the truth, ANYONE who has faith in me (Jesus was talking to the twelve apostles, but he said “ANYONE” not just the apostles) will do what I (Jesus) have been doing. He will do EVEN GREATER THINGS THAN THESE, because I am going to the Father” (John 14:12).

How could this be? Can any body do a greater thing than what Jesus has done? Didn’t he say while he hung on the cross: “It is finished” (John 19:30)? Was not his work on earth done two thousand years ago? Yes, in his own physical body. Today, he continues his work in and through the physical bodies of his believers, the church, individually, congregationally, and universally (Colossians 1:24). Anyone can do, and will do the work of Jesus, and greater work will he do than what Jesus had done during his physical life on earth (except dying on the cross, because we are not sinless). Do you believe this? I did not say it. He did. How can this be true? When he says: “I tell you the truth.” We should really pay attention. This happens because Jesus himself is doing his work through a warm body, who lets him live his life (Jesus’ life) through this physical body today. What limits the work of Jesus in any person’s physical body (his church) is the faith and availability of that person. How much faith and trust do you have in Jesus? How available are you to him? How much faith do I have? How available am I? These are the questions of the hour for his church (2 Corinthians 5:14-21).

Chai Voraritskul
January 20, 2004.

I understand how wrapped up we sometimes get in those things we are passionate about and lose sight of what we say or how we say it. I appreciate your recognition of this and your willingness to apologize. I accept this in the spirit by which it was offered but more importantly appreciate your comments regarding the subject of immersion. We can spend hours discussing those other aspects of immersion. While that is not my intent, here, I feel the need to add another statement to your list regarding immersion. Acts 2:38 not only provides the command for immersion but also the blessing and purpose of it - "for the forgiveness of your sins".

Romans 6:1ff provides us with a logical discussion of the importance of immersion. At that time, as well as today, some understand that God's grace would negate the necessity of living a sanctified life. Paul stresses that immersion is an obligation to live differently because we have died to our old self and have become a new person (1-11). We must then live differently (12-14) because we have been set free from sin (15-23).

Immersion results in forgiveness of our past sins (Acts 2:38, 22:16, Romans 6:6), obtaining the righteousness of Christ due to immersion being based upon faith (Romans 4:20-25), being placed into the body of Christ - His church (I Corinthians 12:13,27, Galatians 3:27), and securing our access to grace and all other spiritual blessings (Romans 5:1-2, Ephesians 1:3).

It appears that this issue has come full circle in that we agree that immersion is necessary but disagree on the limits of fellowship; which I believe, was the original subject of this thread. I mistakenly assumed that your position is that an unimmersed believer is a Christian. From our discussion of the scripture, we can clearly see that this cannot be.

Mark Waggoner

Thank you, Mark, for accepting my apology. I do appreciate your spirit, brother.

You wrote: “I feel the need to add another statement to your list regarding immersion. Acts 2:38 not only provides the command for immersion but also the blessing and purpose of it – ‘for the forgiveness of your sins’.”

True. But you are only telling half of the blessing and the purpose of it, Mark. Know this: The Baptism practiced by John and his disciples, and the Baptism commanded by Jesus in the Great commission, both involve repentance and are for the same reason, forgiveness of sin (Luke 3:3; Acts 2:38, 22:16). The significant distinction between the two is the Holy Spirit. Baptism of John revealed a person’s heart of faith in God, repentance, and the assurance of forgiveness of sins, but there was no power, no life, no Spirit of Christ given (Acts 19:1-7).

When Christ died on the cross, he paid for the sins of the whole world, all mankind were redeemed by his death (2 John 2:2). What Christ has redeemed from Satan, are countless numbers of dead bodies roaming the surface of the earth. Many are already six feet under. Some are not yet born. What’s missing in a dead man? Life. This is what every person, dead in sin, although redeemed by Christ, needs to have first and foremost: Life, the eternal life promised by Christ!

The other half of the blessing and purpose of water immersion is that Jesus gives his Spirit to every believer at the time of baptism as a gift (Acts 2:38). This gift is a promise from the Father for all believers (Acts 2:39, 2:17, 1:4; John 14:15-21). In a special case, God gave his Holy Spirit before baptism to the first Gentile family, as in the case of Cornelius. Even in such a case, water immersion was still applicable (Acts 10:1-11:18). Every person without the Spirit is dead, though he is still alive (Matthew 8:22; 1 Timothy 5:6). The life is in Jesus (John 1:4). He is the eternal life. Anyone who believes and knows him also has eternal life (John 3:16, 5:24-30, 6:35-40, 47, 17:3) because he indwells in the physical bodies of his believers (Colossians 1: 27; Galatians 2:20) by his Spirit, who gives life, as well as power, and deep conviction (1 Thessalonians 1:5).

At baptism, the forgiveness of sins constitutes only half of the blessing. The other half is the Spirit, who gives life (John 6:63). These two blessings make the good news complete. These two blessings satisfy all of our needs. They also satisfy all of God’s needs.

From the foundation of the world, angels wanted to know how can God condemn sin, Satan, his angels who sinned and rebelled against Him, and separate men, all flesh and blood, who sinned, some to eternal life in heaven, some to eternal punishment in hell together with Satan and his demons, at the same time and for all times, remain holy, righteous, loving, merciful, impartial and just, as the supreme power and ruler of the universe? The answer to this mystery was hidden until Christ came and finished his work on planet earth, then God revealed it to the apostles of Jesus and now to all of us (Colossians 1:25-29, 2:3-5, 2:9-12). Through this gospel, Gentiles (we) too are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 3:6, 3:2-13). There is one body, one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all (Ephesians 4:4). The water of baptism, the blood of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, all three are in agreement and are testimonies of God and from God. Any one who refuses to believe these testimonies makes God a liar and will be condemned (1 John 5:1-12).

The Church of Christ, as well as many other churches, you call them denominations, have been teaching only half of the good news, even to this very day. That is why a lot of churches are either dead or dying. They reacted to the misapplications of gifts in the Pentecostal Movement by totally quenching the Spirit. They preach a certain message, or only baptism for the forgiveness of sin, but ignore the Spirit of Christ who quickens them and gives them life. They rely only on the written words, but cut off the communication line to and from the Spirit. They treat Him as if he does not exist, and there is no power to transform life (1 Thessalonians 1:5). The growth and manifestation of life in any local church is directly proportional to the recognition of the sovereignty the Holy Spirit within that body. Just examine their work. They have a system of doctrines, but not the personhood of Jesus (John 5:39, 40). They are like a truck constructed with a powerful V-8 engine, but only four sparkplugs are working. The other four are either disconnected or missing.

The Apostle Paul said nothing really matters more to him than to know Christ and the power of his resurrection. What is that power? (Philippians 3:7-11). Is this power available to us today? Yes (Colossians 2:9). I am convinced I can safely trash all of the theology that I have been taught, including Church of Christ 101, Denominational Doctrines 101, my good work, and my differences on disputable matters, and devote my time only to know Christ personally and the power of his resurrection, and I can enter into his rest (Matthew 11: 28-30; Hebrews 4: 9-11).

The Spirit of Jesus is able and ever ready to lead my spirit (Galatians 5:16, 18, 25, 26). Jesus did not say what he said in John 10:26-30 just for the benefit of the Jews, but for us as well. I can trust, rest, and live by him. We have both the mind and the Spirit of Christ in us (1 Corinthians 2:6-16). Everything else, like Paul said, “I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law (or any good work), but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his suffering, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead” (Philippians 3: 7-11).

You wrote: “Immersion results in forgiveness of our PAST sins (Acts 2:38, 22:16, Romans 6:6), obtaining the righteousness of Christ due to immersion being based upon faith (Romans 4:20-25), being placed into the body of Christ - His church (I Corinthians 12:13,27, Galatians 3:27), and securing our access to grace and all other spiritual blessings (Romans 5:1-2, Ephesians 1:3).”

I say, immersion result in forgiveness for all of our sins, past, present, and future uncommitted sins. The debt has been paid in full for all mankind for all times once and for all at the cross. In Christ, we are not under the law of sin and death any longer. We deal with Christ, and his grace (Romans 8:1-4). Forgiveness is total and complete, not partial, or applicable only to the past sins. If you think we can train the flesh to rise above sin if you try hard enough, you are kidding yourself (Romans 7:17-20). Living a holy and perfect life is neither easy nor difficult. It is impossible. Try it and see! Prove me wrong. And yet we are commanded to do just that (Matthew 5:48; Leviticus 11:44, 45; 19:2, 20:7, 1 Peter 1:15, 16). Can you be perfect? How perfect? As our heavenly Father, who is perfect. Can you be holy? How holy? As holy as God is holy. Try it. If you reach your goals, let me know.

Why then did God tell us to do the impossible? On our own, it is indeed, impossible. God knows that, but Jesus did both. He lived a holy, sinless, and perfect life on earth once. He is doing it again and again, through you, every believer, and me if we would let him, and avail ourselves to him. Only he can fulfill these commands. Are you available? He said: “Apart from me, you can do nothing!” (John 15:5). We don’t really grasp the awesome truth in this statement. We still try, desperately, to do it on our own, and justify our work by our theology, or our righteousness by splitting hair. How different are we from the Jews in Jesus’ time, or pagans of this world today who establish their own righteousness? Without acknowledging Christ who lives in us, communicates actively to us, and manifests himself through us, Christianity is a sick joke, and there is no distinction between our system and the systems practiced by rest of the world, i.e., all paths eventually lead to Nirvana.

You wrote: “It appears that this issue has come full circle in that we agree that immersion is necessary but disagree on the limits of fellowship; which I believe, was the original subject of this thread. I mistakenly assumed that your position is that an unimmersed believer is a Christian. From our discussion of the scripture, we can clearly see that this cannot be.”

FELLOWSHIP: For the purpose of manifesting Jesus in my life, I will fellowship any one, in and out of the body of Christ. For those outside the Body of Christ, I will teach them and I will be their friend. Jesus wants me to be their Jesus. I will be their Jesus. For those who are in the body of Christ, I will teach, and I will compare my notes with them. I can learn from them and they can learn from me. We both benefit. Should I refuse to accept or receive those who have accepted Jesus as their Lord? God forbid (Romans 15:5-7). Are they in error in some areas? Absolutely. Could I be in error in some areas? Absolutely. We both can learn from one another and grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Have I compromised my faith and conviction with you or any one in any way? Absolutely not. Have I asked you to compromise your conviction in any way? Absolutely not. Should we fellowship our fellow believers in the denominational churches? Absolutely. I believe removing walls is right. Fortifying walls is wrong. Building bridges is right. Bombing the bridges is wrong. Those who refuse to receive other believers in the Lord, regardless of our differences, while preaching against denominations, are denominational in and by themselves. They live in denial. They don’t know what the unity in the Spirit, in the bond of peace means (Ephesians 4:3). They don’t know what unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God means (Ephesians 4:13). They ignore the wish of Jesus (John 17:20-26). They ignore the plea or command of the Apostle (Romans 15:7). They are the Diotrephes of our time (3 John 9, 10). They are law unto themselves. They honor Christ with their lips, but their behaviors deny him.

Is God mocked (Galatians 5:7)?

Chai Voraritskul
1/24/2004.

We cannot set the limits of fellowship - we can only acknowledge these as presented in the New Testament. You wrote, "Should we fellowship our fellow believers in the denominational churches? Absolutely." The scriptures plainly teach that the proper response to this question is "abolutely not."

Fellowship is defined as joint participation or partnership. We have multiple fellowships in our daily lives; i.e. who we work with, go to ball games with, etc. This type of fellowship does not violate scripture; however, concerning spiritual matters...

Amos 3:3 -- "Shall two walk together, except they have agreed?"

Ephesians 5:11 -- "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them."

2 John 9-11 -- "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

Galatians 1:6-9 -- "...there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

Titus 1:11-13 -- "Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake....Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith."

Matthew 7:15 -- "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

You stated, "Those who refuse to receive other believers in the Lord, regardless of our differences, while preaching against denominations,are denominational in and by themselves." False! It is possible to "denominationize" ourselves but the Lord's church is not a denomination. Who are these other believers? What do they believe? One can "believe" in Jesus and be religious in all sincerity and not be a Christian. There is only one denomination, that I am personally aware of, that practices immersion for the forgiveness of sin. Most of them teach that immersion is not necessary or that it is done because sins have already been forgiven. How can a Christian fellowship with this in light of the above passages?

True unity can only be acheived when everyone submits to the will of God. You said, "They don’t know what the unity in the Spirit, in the bond of peace means (Ephesians 4:3). They don’t know what unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God means (Ephesians 4:13)." Let's look at the full context of these verses...

4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner in the Lord, plead with you to walk worthy of the calling in which you were called, 4:2 with all humility and meekness, with longsuffering, tolerating one another in love. 4:3 Be diligent to keep the oneness of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just-as you were also called in one hope of your calling; 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one immersion, 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. There are seven "ones" in these verses and this oneness is where true unity is found. We can only create an illusion of unity through compromise. True, we are to be tolerant in areas of opinion but we can never shrink from the essentials.

4:11 And he gave some to be apostles, and some, prophets, and some, evangelists, and some, shepherds and teachers. 4:12 These gifts were done for the equipping of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ, 4:13 until we all arrive to the oneness of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 4:14 that we may no longer be infants, tossed to and fro and carried around with every wind of teaching, by the trickery of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error. 4:15 But be truthful with love. We may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, who is Christ; 4:16 from whom all the body fitly framed and knit together through what every joint supplies, according to the working in due measure of each individual part, that makes the growth of the body to the building up of itself in love. It is possible to pervert the doctrine of Christ and to preach another gospel is condemned (Gal. 1). No, we are not and never will be perfect. We are to mature and grow so that we can recognize false doctrine or else we will die. This is not the only reason for spiritual maturity, but it is obviously one of them. Why else would every epistle except for Philemon contain some type of warning against it?

We must mature beyond the essentials (milk) so that we can discern between right and wrong (Heb. 5). This reveals the real power of God's word. Sharper than a two-edged sword, it can change lives IF it is planted in hearts that desire to follow it. This is not based on some nebulous feeling but knowledge - to "know" that we have eternal life (I John 5:13).

Mark Waggoner

Mark, I believe all genuine disciples of Jesus must receive and accept other believers of Jesus Christ, in spite of our differences on disputable matters. This is the right thing to do. My plea to you is to forget everything you have been taught in your life. Study and meditate on Romans 14:1-15:13 once more as if this were your first time. Picture your mind as a fresh sheet of blank paper with nothing written on it. Read from your KJV Bible first, then read from several other English translations for a fresh insight from various perspectives. Let the Spirit of Christ speak to you and rewrite the script on that blank sheet of paper in your mind. The Spirit of Christ will reveal to you what the mind of Christ is. Do not feed yourself with yesterday’s “manna.” There is fresh “Bread of Life” available to you every day. Feast on this and live the Abundant Life (John 6:27-65). Your spirit will be in complete agreement with the Spirit of Christ. Your mind will be the mind of Christ. You body will be the body of Christ, the true church.]

Amos 3:3 -- "Shall two walk together, except they have agreed?" [How much the two must agree before walking together? How about faith in God (Hebrews 11:6)? Yes. How about confession that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God (Romans 10:5-13)? Yes. How about repentance from the life of sin (Colossians 3:5-11)? Yes. How about having been immersed in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:18-20)? Yes. What if they don’t understand the right reason for water immersion? Has God accepted them? If God has accepted them, would you not also accept them? How can we know that God has accepted them? Do they walk by the Spirit? How do we know? Look for the fruit of the Spirit. What is the fruit of the Spirit? Galatians 5:22-25. If God has given His Spirit to any one, and there is a fruit of the Spirit to confirm it, is that person my brother or sister in Christ? Yes. What if he is against any kind of music in worship, is he still my brother in Christ? Yes. What if he uses musical instrument in worship, is he still my brother in Christ? Yes. What if he believes in miracles and speaks in tongues, is he still my brother in Christ? Yes. What if he worships in a Baptist Church, is he still my brother in Christ? Yes. What if he believes in the thousand years reign of Christ on earth in the future, is he still your brother in Christ? Yes.]

[What is eternal life and how can one receive that eternal life? Believe God and know Jesus (John 17:3). This is Jesus’ own statement. Everything else is excess baggage. Who gives us the right to impose excess baggage? Do you agree with all other brothers within the Church of Christ on every doctrinal issue? No. Why then do you walk with them? Are you consistent in your treatment toward your fellow believers in and out of the Church of Christ fellowship? If not, you are guilty of the same sin that the Apostle Peter committed at one time. Paul confronted him and opposed him to his face (Galatians 2:11-16).]

Ephesians 5:11 -- "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." [Amen. What is the unfruitful works of darkness? Is it not the work of the flesh and of the world (Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 2:15-17)? Jesus said: “By their fruit, you shall know them” (Matthew 7:15-23). Do mainline conservative evangelical churches practice or promote any teaching other than what Jesus and his apostles have taught? No. Other than doctrinal differences on disputable matters, do the Baptists live any differently in their daily life than those in the Church of Christ? No. “Therefore, I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, ‘Jesus be cursed,’ and no one can say, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ except by the Holy Spirit” (1 Corinthians 12:3). If the Baptists or the any other follower of Jesus admit verbally that “Jesus is their Lord.” They speak by the Holy Spirit. If the Spirit of Christ is in them, they are my brothers and sisters in the Lord. What criteria do you teach for any one to receive the forgiveness of sins, and to receive the gift of the Holy spirit? Let me see you state it in writing.]

[So, You disagree with the Baptists, and you don’t fellowship them. You also disagree with me. Do you fellowship me? May be, may be not. Do you fellowship those within the Church of Christ brotherhood who disagree with you? You do. If so, your conduct is inconsistent and hypocritical. But if you do not fellowship anyone who disagrees with you, then you will soon be splitting up your congregation to set up another “true and the only right Church of Christ.” Your fellowship will be with those who have the same mindset and agree perfectly on every doctrinal point with you. Sooner or later, you will again discover that you don’t see “eyeball to eyeball” on everything with any or most of those in your new church either. What do you do now? Off you go, setting up another “true, and unadulterated, non-denominated Church of Christ,” declaring that salvation is in that true church. Any one who does not belong to that right church goes to hell. Does this sound unfamiliar? Ask any long time member of the Church of Christ. Is this not our modus operandi?]

2 John 9-11 -- "Whosoever transgresses, and abides not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that bids him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." [I agree with the scripture but disagree with your blanket, sloppy application. Show me where have I transgressed and abided not in the doctrine of Christ. Show me where have the Baptists transgressed the doctrine of Christ? You disagree with them. You dispute some of their doctrines. They disagree with you and dispute your doctrines also. So you label them: “false teachers” and reject them. How appropriate! The Devil is ecstatic.]

Galatians 1:6-9 -- "...there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." [There is only one gospel. That gospel is defined in 1Corinthian 15:1-4. Any one who preaches a different gospel, let him be cursed! Most mainline denominational churches preach this gospel, i.e., the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. They don’t trouble you or any one, and they don’t pervert that gospel. We should watch our own gospel, brother. Make sure we are not preaching a “salvation is in the church” gospel. We may have the right name, but preach bad news. The curse is on the man who preaches a plan but not the Man. The God-man Jesus is the one who saves. The formula, (believe, repent, confess, be baptized, saved.) though prescribes the progression toward salvation, is not the gospel, and the church is not our savior. Anyone who looks to the right church for salvation commits idolatry. We can try to justify what we do, but we are not above reproach on what we have done within the Church of Christ. Examine this web site. Is Jesus pleased or being honored? Is he just a sissy figurehead of his church? Is he silent? I think not. Will he thunder from heaven? How does he speak to his church? What do you think?]

Titus 1:11-13 -- "Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake....Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith." [Amen. I agree. Is this not why we post? Does the same Spirit prompt us? I don’t think so. Some have quenched the Spirit. Others do not believe in the direct operation of the Spirit, but I do. Do not congratulate a chandelier, no matter how elaborate it looks. If it is not wired to a source of power, it is useless when the room is dark.]

Matthew 7:15 -- "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." [We identify false prophets by their fruit, the deeds and consequences of what they do (Matthew 7:15-23). Do not look for them just among the non-Churches of Christ circle. Look at this web site. Can’t you hear the barking? Are they just watchdogs, or are they wolves?]

You quoted my statement and stated yours: "Those who refuse to receive other believers in the Lord, regardless of our differences, while preaching against denominations, are denominational in and by themselves." False! It is possible to "denomination" ourselves but the Lord's church is not a denomination.

[I agree that the Lord’s church is not a denomination. But the Lord’s church is not synonymous with the “Church of Christ,” mind you. What we have been taught in the Church of Christ is not necessarily all gospel truth. We both know this too well. Anybody inhabited by the Spirit of Christ, is the church (Colossians 1:24). Membership in any local assembly of the believers has nothing to do with how a person become a church, a “called out” person. Think not of a church only as a local congregation or the invisible universal church. A person is rightfully and Biblically a church if Christ is in him. He does not need to join a church to be a church. When God puts his seal of approval on a person by giving that person the Spirit of Christ, he is a church of Christ. His physical body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. He is my brother in the Lord. Let no man repudiate what God has done. Reprobates and false prophets will do just that.]

You asked: “Who are these other believers? What do they believe? One can ‘believe’ in Jesus and be religious in all sincerity and not be a Christian [This is an incorrect statement. Show me one real example of what you have just stated.] There is only one denomination [Do you mean the Church of Christ? A denomination?], that I am personally aware of, that practices immersion for the forgiveness of sin [Mark, are you suffering from Elijah depressive syndrome too? He also thought he was the only one (1Kings 19:13a – 18).] Most [some, not most] of them teach that immersion is not necessary [for salvation], [True. They believe that salvation is received by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:4-10). Anything one does, including the act of obedience of water immersion, is an expression of that faith. I don’t think they teach against water immersion. They all practice water baptism. Can anyone be saved without water baptism? This is a debatable theological question. Actually none of us has the authority to decide. Only God decides. We follow Christ’s command. So do they.]

[Pardon me for splicing your sentence.] or that it is done because sins have already been forgiven [Correct. This is another debatable issue. If a person is saved by faith, then at the point of believe, he is justified, just like Abraham (Romans 4:1-24). Is this in conflict with Mark 16:15? No, it is not. Jesus said: “He who believes and is baptized, shall be saved.” Since baptism is an expression of that faith in Jesus, along with repentance and confession. Jesus mentioned only one of the many things that faith in him will express itself through, i.e., water immersion. There is no conflict here. This debate has gone on for more than a hundred years. Do you want to settle it right now? Do you have the power to do it? Go ahead. I am right behind you. Have we learned from our differences? What? (1Corinthians 11:17-19)]

You asked: “How can a Christian fellowship with this in light of the above passages?” [The Spirit of Jesus makes this possible. In the world economy, where legality and human logic prevail, two opposing positions cannot be both right. But in God’s economy, where grace prevails, opposing convictions can both still be acceptable to Him. Again read and meditate on Romans 14, and 15. God’s grace is greater than our theology. Even when we are wrong, and our own hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts (1John 3:18-24). This is grace. Meditate on these passages. The Lord is gracious. He will speak to you.]

Mark, you cited Ephesians 4:1-6 and stated: “There are seven ‘ones’ in these verses and this oneness is where true unity is found. We can only create an illusion of unity through compromise [You still miss my point. We do not create an illusion of kind. We are commanded to keep the unity, in the bond of peace. There is no choice here. You either obey or disobey. Compromise? Have I? Have you? Have I asked you to compromise? Can we be united in the Spirit of Christ without compromising? Yes, absolutely. How can it be? Be still. Have peace in your heart first, then watch for God’s activity in your life and around you. He is at work. He has not retired (John 5:17). Ask him to open your eyes. He will, but do you want him to?]

You continued: “True, we are to be tolerant in areas of opinion but we can never shrink from the essentials [Have we shrunk from the essentials? I did not shrink; neither did you. Can we still extend a common courtesy to each other and to other believers by receiving and accepting each other in the Lord? Yes, if we hear Jesus (John 10: 26-30; Hebrews 13 6-8). Should we be afraid of any man? Read Galatians 1:10. Is this test unique only to you or me? Why did Nicodemus came to Jesus at night (John 3:2)? Why did Peter get up from a good meal he was enjoying when certain men from James showed up (Galatians 2:11-21)? We all have critical decisions to make at various times in our lives. This is one of them.]

Your conclusion: “We must mature beyond the essentials (milk) so that we can discern between right and wrong (Heb. 5). This reveals the real power of God's word. Sharper than a two-edged sword, it can change lives IF it is planted in hearts that desire to follow it. This is not based on some nebulous feeling but knowledge - to "know" that we have eternal life (I John 5:13).” [Well put. Amen.]

“Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to HIS POWER, THAT IS AT WORK IN US, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen” (Ephesians 3:20f).

Chai Voraritskul
1/29/2004.

I believe that you're making some inaccurate assumptions and drawing incorrect conclusions from them. First of all, [I believe all genuine disciples of Jesus must receive and accept other believers of Jesus Christ, in spite of our differences on disputable matters.] Are you lumping immersion, instrumental music, female leadership, etc. in with "disputable matters"? These are not disputable as God has spoken plainly concerning them. The demons also believe (James 2:19)- are we to "accept" them dispite our "differences"? Why would I want to forget all that I have learned? And, by the way, I do not even use my KJV in Bible study. My primary translation of choice is the NASB.

Another assumption you made is this: [What if they don’t understand the right reason for water immersion? Has God accepted them? If God has accepted them, would you not also accept them?] Who said that God accepted them? Has he? I think not, especially since the men in Acts 19 were re-immersed for the "right reason". [How can we know that God has accepted them? Do they walk by the Spirit? How do we know? Look for the fruit of the Spirit.] So you advocate salvation by works?

[Do you agree with all other brothers within the Church of Christ on every doctrinal issue? No. Why then do you walk with them?] I do not walk with those who "go beyond" what the scriptures authorize. I can have disagreements in matters of opinion and maintain fellowship. There is no inconsistency here.

[Show me where have the Baptists transgressed the doctrine of Christ?] They do not belive, teach, or practice immersion for the forgiveness of sin. I realize that there are sects of the Baptist religion that do practice this but they are a very small minority. I am not in fellowship with these mainline Baptists because they are not in fellowship with Christ. Christ has drawn the limits of fellowship, not I. It is HIS doctrine, not mine. This is not to say that I do not extend common courtesy to them and try to teach the gospel to them. I have a good number of friends and co-workers who belong to various denominations but we are not in fellowship. I cannot withdraw from something that has never existed.

[There is only one gospel. That gospel is defined in 1Corinthian 15:1-4. Any one who preaches a different gospel, let him be cursed! Most mainline denominational churches preach this gospel, i.e., the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. They don’t trouble you or any one, and they don’t pervert that gospel.] Refer to Galatians 1, again. The Judaizers also taught "the gospel" as you define it; however, Paul calls them "accursed". Why? They taught something in addition to it... one had to become a Jew before he could become a Christian. Replace the "sinner's prayer" for what the Judaizers taught and you have the same thing... a perversion of the gospel message! [How does he speak to his church? What do you think?] Jesus speaks to us from His word. Are we listening?

[You asked: “Who are these other believers? What do they believe? One can ‘believe’ in Jesus and be religious in all sincerity and not be a Christian [[This is an incorrect statement. Show me one real example of what you have just stated.]] Since when did sincerity secure salvation? Sincerely believing and obeying the truth will but sincerity alone will not. In II Peter I, he talks about the "true knowledge" of Christ, implying that there is false knowledge. He goes on to instruct us to be more diligent to "make certain about His calling" so that we will "never stumble". Like the Pharisees, Saul, and others, we can be sincere but sincerely wrong. In Matthew 7, we also see where even those who would have the gift of prophecy and could cast out demons would not enter into heaven.

I cannot accept those as brethren who are not brethren. It is not for me to decide. Peter was opposed by Paul because he chose to withdraw from the Gentile BRETHREN. [If the Baptists or the any other follower of Jesus admit verbally that “Jesus is their Lord.” They speak by the Holy Spirit. If the Spirit of Christ is in them, they are my brothers and sisters in the Lord. What criteria do you teach for any one to receive the forgiveness of sins, and to receive the gift of the Holy spirit? Let me see you state it in writing.] God said it in writing... Acts 2:38 "repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 22:16 "And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." By the way, in the structure of Greek grammer, baptism is calling on His name. What other way(s) do you prescribe?

Mark Waggoner

Mark, your questions and statements. {My fresh remarks}.

{Chai,} are you lumping immersion, instrumental music, female leadership, etc. in with "disputable matters"? These are not disputable as God has spoken plainly concerning them {Mark, in the process of studying any topic from the Bible, you might have questions, draw conclusions, and make applications. There are other believers, who study the very same text, but they ask different questions, arrive at different conclusions, and make different applications. Dispute and debate could easily arise when you communicate and compare notes with them. Take the topic of immersion. Immersion is commanded. If a person places his faith in Jesus, but is not immersed, is he saved? Is a person saved before or after immersion? What is the proper mode of baptism, sprinkling, pouring, or immersing? If a person is immersed, but part of his body is not totally submerged under the water, is his baptism valid? If one doesn’t know the right reason for immersion, is that immersion valid? Does God still accept such baptism? How can we know? Can a woman baptize another person? These are just a few debatable points concerning the topic of immersion. You think your answers are right. Others think their answers are right. What do you do now? This is natural and healthy. Our differences create thirst and hunger for the truth and drive us to the Book one more time. Cobwebs, sloppy applications, wrong interpretations, and wrong conclusions can be identified and eliminated (1 Corinthians 11:18, 19).}

{Why does this web site exist? Because there are numerous debatable and disputable matters that exist and need to be addressed within the Churches of Christ. Would you like to know what are the non-debatable and undisputable matters among all believers of Jesus Christ? Take a closer look at the written creeds of the church throughout history and put them on the table along with the written creeds and the statements of faith from all conservative evangelical churches and Para-church organizations of today. Keep only the common denominators. Eliminate all the variances. And we will have arrived at the essence of the undisputable matters in the church of Jesus Christ.}

{Say not that the Church of Christ has no creed, and the Bible is our only written creed. We have countless unwritten creeds, many are now written, organized, and codified on this web site. This is sheer hypocrisy. In my opinion, since the Restoration Movement period began, in the 1800’s up to the present time, the plea to disregard all written creeds was unwise. We have thrown away the baby along with the dirty bathwater. The plea should have been to distill from all the creeds the essence of our common, undisputable statements of faith and conviction. Thus all churches can speak the same thing, and be united as the Apostle Paul has appealed in 1 Corinthians 1:10. But we moved forward to establish our own unwritten creeds, rejecting everybody else’s. The result is the current doctrines of the Churches of Christ, with countless doctrinal issues and written creeds as you witness on this web site. Do you see any denomination knocking at your church doors lately? We did not only throw away the baby; our water tub leaks badly too.}

{Think not that early Christians had no creed. They did, and Paul quoted two of them. “Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him (Christ), we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself” (2Timothy 2:11-13). Here is another credo statement, by the inspiration of the Spirit: “Beyond all questions, the mystery of godliness is great: He (God) appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory” (1Timothy 3:16). What’s wrong with these two creeds? Absolutely nothing. God wants believers to manifest their faith. “The just shall live by faith.” A statement of faith or a written creed is desirable, declaring to the world clearly where we stand. If one sees the need to make a statement of faith in writing, there are things concerning Jesus Christ that is never in dispute among the believers. Start here, the core of the essentials, add love (Colossians 3:14), and there will be unity. This is just my personal opinion.}

{Concerning instrumental music: Instruments were used in worship in the OT with God’s blessing (Exodus 15:20f; 2Samuel 6:5, 15; 1Chronicles 25:3; Psalm 33:1-3, 43:4, 57:7-11, 71:22-24, 81:1-4, 92:1-5, 98:4-6, 108:1-5, 147:7, 149:1-9, 150:1-6). God himself gives harps to his saints in heaven (Revelation 5:8, 15:2-4). The sound of harps can be heard in heaven before God’s throne (Revelation 14:2). Today, believers in most churches have no problem using musical instruments in their worship service. But most members of the Churches of Christ oppose such practice. Why? “It is not authorized.” We readily acknowledge that musical instruments were used in the OT, but we are not living in the OT dispensation. True, harps are used in heaven, but we are not in heaven yet. We live now in the NT dispensation period. Whatever is commanded and practiced in the NT, we will do. No more and no less. We know that we are encouraged, or commanded, to sing (1Corinthian 14:15; Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16; James 5:13). We have approved examples of singing (Matthew 26:30; Acts 16:25; Hebrew 2:10-12). All Christians are commanded, encouraged, and authorized to sing. But there is no command, necessary inference, or an approved example in the NT to play musical instruments in worship. Aren’t these our standard answers?}

{Fair enough, everything must be authorized, either by a direct command, necessary inference, or an approved example. Questions: Where is the command, necessary inference, or an approved example in the NT for a song leader? Who authorized him to get up before the church assembly and wave his hand and lead us in singing? Don’t we know how to sing by ourselves without a song leader? If he can wave his hand, can I raise my hands too? Can I clap? Can I tap my feet? Why not? Now if you can have one song leader, why can’t you have ten or fifty song leaders? Where is our scripture to support what we advocate or negate? So, we cannot use mechanical instruments, because it is not authorized. I hear you. Why do we use electronic instruments? Why do we use an amplifier? Where is the command, necessary inference, or an approved example for sound amplification? Did Jesus or any of the apostles ever preach or worship with bullhorns? If we should not use mechanical instruments, then don’t use any instrument, mechanical or electronic, period. If you use any electronic instrument, don’t throw rocks at those who use Power Point, big screen instead of songbooks, and electronic keyboards or any other instruments. We must be consistent, or we are hypocrites. Are we not blind guides? Have we not strained out a gnat and swallowed a camel (Matthew 23:24)? Do you think Kenneth Sublett is right? He doesn’t sing at all; problem solved. But we are commanded and encouraged to sing. We want to sing, and God authorizes us to sing. Can you sing without entertaining or being entertained? How? Are you celebrating your salvation and praising God with joy and gladness, or are you attending a funeral? Don’t you think these are disputable matters, Mark?}

{Concerning female leadership, you think God’s word is very plain, there should not be any dispute, right? I have a few questions for you. Can your mother still teach you today? If not, when did she stop? Does she teach anyone? Can she teach anyone, in what circumstances? Paul instructed Titus to teach older women so that they can train younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God (Titus 2:2-5). Do you see this being preached or vigorously practiced within your congregation, in any Church of Christ, or in any church in the United States today? Name one. Do you think women know their roles in the church? Why is the divorce rate higher among the churchgoers than among the nonbelievers? What part of this instruction the ministers of the gospel of Christ can’t understand and can’t preach? Should women come into the assembly with Scotch tape taped across their mouths? Paul said: “For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in subjection, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church” (1Corinthians 14: 33-36). Can women sing in the assembly? Can they ask questions? Do you see any women asking questions in your church assembly? Shouldn’t they ask their husbands at home? What if they are singles? Who do they go to for a Q & A session? Can they pray with you or for you? Do you have to leave the room when they pray? Answer me these questions, Mark, and your answers, whatever they might be, will be disputed with gusto by your own brothers and sisters in your own congregation, not to mention those on this web site, and the rest of the Churches of Christ. You don’t see this as a disputable matter? Do you have any personal conviction on this matter? Does any one speak for you or for the Church of Christ? Does church autonomy and freedom in Christ mean anything to you? (Romans 14:22; 2Cornithians 3:4-6, 17, 18.)}

The demons also believe (James 2:19)- are we to "accept" them despite our "differences"? {Demons are spirits. Spirits have no flesh and blood. They manifest themselves through human bodies who give their consent. Jesus did not come to earth to save evil spirits (Hebrew 2:16), but the human beings, in flesh and blood. Demons know who Jesus is. Men don’t, unless the Spirit of Jesus reveals the truth to them and enables them to confess him (1Corinthians 12:3). Your dispute is not with me, but with the scripture. Take it up with God. I did not write 1Corinthians 12:3}. Why would I want to forget all that I have learned? {Two reasons: 1. When you approach the word of God, any yeast in the cup contaminates. 2. An empty cup holds the most amount of water.} And, by the way, I do not even use my KJV in Bible study. My primary translation of choice is the NASB {Bless you, Mark. NASB and the NKJV are two most accurate English translations available today, in my opinion.}

Another assumption you made is this: [What if they don’t understand the right reason for water immersion? Has God accepted them? If God has accepted them, would you not also accept them?] Who said that God accepted them? Has he? I think not {and you are mistaken}, especially since the men in Acts 19 were re-immersed for the "right reason." {Mark, they were already baptized for the right reason: “for the remission of sin.” Read Luke 3:3 and compare it with Acts 2:38. The reason they were re-baptized was because they knew John the Baptist but did not know Jesus. A necessary inference is that Paul preached to them the gospel, introduced Jesus to them. They believed and were baptized into the name of Jesus (vs. 5)} [How can we know that God has accepted them? Do they walk by the Spirit? How do we know? Look for the fruit of the Spirit.] So you advocate salvation by works?

{No, I do not advocate salvation by works. Paul said: “We continually remember before our God and Father your work PRODUCED BY faith, your labor PROMPTED BY love, and your endurance INSPIRED BY hope in our Lord Jesus Christ” (1Thessalonians 1:3). We are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:4-10). Faith PRODUCES works. Love PROMPTS labor. Hope INSPIRES endurance. Faith, love, and hope are attributes in the realm of the spirit. We don’t know that they are in us until they manifest themselves through our lives and behavior. The “seen” confirms the “unseen.”}

[Show me where have the Baptists transgressed the doctrine of Christ?] They do not believe, teach, or practice immersion for the forgiveness of sin {They believe we are saved by faith. At the point of believing, a person is justified and saved (Romans 4:1-12, 22-25) Baptism is only a confirmation of that faith. You dispute this point, thus their reason of baptism. Should we pitch one scripture against another to justify our theological stand?}. I realize that there are sects of the Baptist religion that do practice this but they are a very small minority. I am not in fellowship with these mainline Baptists because they are not in fellowship with Christ {They are not in fellowship with you, but they are in fellowship with Christ. 1Corinthains 12:3 and 1 John 4:1-6 say they are, because they have the Spirit of Christ. You question these scriptures and choose to draw your own line. Your dispute is not with me. Take it up with God. Which part of these scriptures is unclear?} Christ has drawn the limits of fellowship, not I {Then reread these scriptures}. It is HIS doctrine, not mine {His doctrine is different than yours}. This is not to say that I do not extend common courtesy to them and try to teach the gospel to them. I have a good number of friends and co-workers who belong to various denominations but we are not in fellowship {So you are friends with them but not in fellowship with them. Give me your definition of fellowship}. I cannot withdraw from something that has never existed {True, and you are in violation of Romans 15: 7}.

[There is only one gospel. That gospel is defined in 1Corinthian 15:1-4. Any one who preaches a different gospel, let him be cursed! Most mainline denominational churches preach this gospel, i.e., the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. They don’t trouble you or any one, and they don’t pervert that gospel.] Refer to Galatians 1, again. The Judaizers also taught "the gospel" as you define it; however, Paul calls them "accursed". Why? They taught something in addition to it... one had to become a Jew before he could become a Christian. Replace the "sinner's prayer" for what the Judaizers taught and you have the same thing... a perversion of the gospel message! {The problem of Judaizers was addressed in Acts 15 and Galatians 3-5. Anyone can read them and understand the problem. The sinner’s prayer is not a perversion to the gospel, if it is, any more than our standard formula of: “Believe, repent, confess, baptize and be saved” used in the Churches of Christ. Other churches teach a person to trust in Jesus, repent and confess through prayer, thus establishing a relationship with the Lord from the very beginning. We don’t ask any sinner to pray in our formula. And we throw rocks at others.} [How does he speak to his church? What do you think?] Jesus speaks to us from His word {and dreams, visions (Acts 2:17-21), sermons, donkey, 9/11, and this web site}. Are we listening? {I am, brother. Are you?}

[You asked: “Who are these other believers? What do they believe? One can ‘believe’ in Jesus and be religious in all sincerity and not be a Christian [[This is an incorrect statement. Show me one real example of what you have just stated.]] Since when did sincerity secure salvation? Sincerely believing and obeying the truth will but sincerity alone will not. In II Peter I, he talks about the "true knowledge" of Christ, implying that there is false knowledge. He goes on to instruct us to be more diligent to "make certain about His calling" so that we will "never stumble". Like the Pharisees, Saul, and others, we can be sincere but sincerely wrong. In Matthew 7, we also see where even those who would have the gift of prophecy and could cast out demons would not enter into heaven. {Mark, Read God’s lips: “… and no one can say, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ except by the Holy Spirit” (1Corninthians 12:3). If this is not clear enough, ask God for further clarification. I also asked you for a real live case to support your contention. Have you got one? Should we let it blow over for now?}

I cannot accept those as brethren who are not brethren. It is not for me to decide. Peter was opposed by Paul because he chose to withdraw from the Gentile BRETHREN. [If the Baptists or any other follower of Jesus admits verbally that “Jesus is their Lord.” They speak by the Holy Spirit. If the Spirit of Christ is in them, they are my brothers and sisters in the Lord. What criteria do you teach for any one to receive the forgiveness of sins, and to receive the gift of the Holy spirit? Let me see you state it in writing.] God said it in writing... Acts 2:38 "repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 22:16 "And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." By the way, in the structure of Greek grammar, baptism is calling on His name. What other way(s) do you prescribe?

{Mark, let me ask you these questions: If one has believed in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, confessed Christ as Lord from the heart, repented of his old life of sins, and has been immersed in the water in the name of the Father, the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, but he has only a limited understanding of the scripture. He either misunderstands the structure of Greek grammar concerning baptism, or does not even understand the meaning of his baptism at all. Is this person saved in God’s sight? Is there anyone like that in your congregation, or within the Churches of Christ today? Do you accept this person if he is baptised in your church baptistry? How do you know whether this person is saved or not? Please tell me. Give me your scripture and a live example, if you have one, to support your explanation. Thanks.}

Chai Voraritskul
Feb. 8, 2004

While there are areas of opinion that are derived by acts of human reasoning, the issue at hand is to determine what is truly within the scope of opinion with respect to religious matters. Just because men may dispute certain things does not determine whether those issues are disputable in the eyes of God. For example, the majority of the earth’s population will dispute that Jesus is Lord and Savior but is that really disputable? In order to determine whether there is room for human opinion on any subject, we must turn to God’s word for guidance. Otherwise, there is no absolute truth on any subject as our post-modern culture brokers would affirm.

Concerning immersion; it is not sprinkling or pouring. The early translators invented (transliterated) the word “baptism” instead of accurately interpreting the literal meaning of the Greek word “baptizo”, which means to immerse, dip, or plunge. I suspect, and this is an opinion by the way, that these men didn’t want to report to the king and explain why his “baptism” wasn’t valid (King James was sprinkled as an infant). Sprinkling and pouring are not scriptural “baptisms” and were human innovations to what the Bible teaches on the subject. This should be beyond debate.

One does not need to know Greek in order to understand the necessity of immersion. The new convert will almost certainly have a limited understanding of scripture but they must be able to know and do certain things, some of which are ridiculed today. The basis of one’s salvation must come from faith and that faith must be grounded firmly in God’s word (Romans 10:17, Hebrews 11:6, John 3:16; 20:30-31). Is this faith or acknowledgment of facts, by itself, sufficient? Not according to the Bible because when the Bible speaks of believers being saved, it means obedient believers and not disobedient ones (Acts 16:34; 2:44, Gal. 5:6-7). Faith alone will not save (James 2:24). If one’s belief in Christ produces sufficient faith, that person will repent or change one’s mindset and conduct (Matt. 21:28-29, Luke 13:3; 24:45-47, Acts 17:30-31). If one has truly repented, they will confess Jesus as the Son of God throughout their life (Matt. 10:32-33, Romans 10:9-10, Acts 8:37). Repentance also leads one to immersion, that burial into Christ death (Romans 6:4, Col. 2:12). Its purpose is the forgiveness of sin (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16, I Peter 3:20-21, Acts 10:48). When Gal. 3:27 is read, followed by II Cor. 5:17, we see that immersion also places one “in” Christ and creates a new person. Christ adds this person to His church at the point of immersion (Acts 2:41; 47), the point at which salvation is obtained. Then, the new Christian is to grow and mature according to the truth. Following the resurrection of Christ, do we ever see a scriptural command or example that varies from these facts? Is there a single Biblical instance where we see one was saved by quoting a prayer?

Concerning instrumental music in worship; it has already been accurately stated that there is no scriptural authority for its use in Christian worship. This innovation was introduced for the first time into worship of any body claiming to be Christians around 670 by Pope Vitalian I. It is curious that there is no historical reference of this innovation prior to this time, some 600 years after Christ and 500 years after the apostolic period. With great irony is the fact that the founders of the major protestant denominations were unanimously opposed to the usage of musical instruments in worship. Luther, Spurgeon (Baptist), Wesley (Methodist), and Calvin (Presbyterian) all opposed their use in worship. It is not the churches of Christ who are showing inconsistency on this subject. The use of song books, song leaders, microphones, et al. cannot be compared to the use of musical instruments. Singing is a type of music. Instrumental music is a type of music. God specified singing as the type of music to employ during worship to Him (Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16). Song books are not a type of music. What is one doing when he uses a song book but sing? Using a song book doesn’t add or change the command to sing but playing another type of music does. The question to be considered here is; are we altering God’s command or are we assisting ourselves in carrying out His command? Not all worship is pleasing to God (Acts 17:23, Matt. 15:9, Col. 2:23). For worship to be pleasing to Him, it must be done in spirit and truth (John 4:23-24). The proper spirit involves the attitude of the worshipper. The melody is made “within the heart” (Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16). I Cor. 14:15 says, “I shall sing with the spirit and I shall sing with the mind also.” Truth involves the proper actions. According to Thayer, “in truth” of John 4:23 means “as accords with the divine nature.” Truth must be connected with the right doctrine. This is not new as God has always required that man approach Him “in truth.” Worship (the context of I Cor. 14) is also to be done “properly and in an orderly manner” (I Cor. 14:40).

Concerning female leadership; the issue is with scriptural authority and not capability. It has primarily been a product of modern culture that has agitated this separation from God’s will. I Cor. 11 and 14 deal specifically with disorder in worship. In I Cor. 11:3, the “head” clearly refers to authority and because of this, God intends for women to be subordinate to men in worship. This fact transcends culture. Even the women who possessed miraculous spiritual gifts were not to exercise them during the worship assembly (I Cor. 14:35). The Holy Spirit gives the reason why women are not to exercise spiritual authority over men in I Timothy 2:12-13 as Adam was created before Eve. It is God’s design, by creation, that the male has the responsibility to be the spiritual leader of the home and in the church. God could have created male and female simultaneously be He didn’t and this signifies His will concerning authority and submission for the human race (I Cor. 11:8). Bible teaching on differences in roles does not imply a difference in worth. The differing of roles is simply a matter of functionality and responsibility, not inferiority.

The standard of what is acceptable in religious matters is not whether it satisfies the individual. Many declare satisfaction with the course they have chosen in religion without ever considering the question, “Is God satisfied with my religion?” The plea cannot be, “serve God as you see it,” but to “Fear God and keep His commandments” (Eccl. 12:13). We must be willing to test our beliefs and practices to see if they fit with the Biblical pattern. “Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves!” (II Cor. 13:5). Our morality, conduct, beliefs, and practices must be based on what the scriptures authorize. What the scriptures say is not disputable, only true opinions are.

Mark Waggoner

By definition, fellowship is an association, joint participation, partnership, or sharing that takes place between people or groups of people. This definition is devoid of context, meaning that fellowship can exist within or without a religious context. There are business partnerships, social associations, and domestic relationships that constitute fellowship. Many of these will be found in scripture; such as Luke 5:10, I Cor. 5:9-13, and I Cor. 7:12-16 just to mention a few. When discussing fellowship, the context must be identified in order to determine what the scriptures say concerning that relationship.

A more narrow definition of fellowship evolves when one refers to “in Christ” fellowship. This “Christian” fellowship is confined to the context of being “in” Jesus Christ. Christian fellowship is based upon a divine relationship. It is superior to all other relationships because it is a blood relationship – the blood of Christ. Man cannot draw the boundaries of this type of fellowship, he can only recognize what God has already determined. We first see Christian fellowship at work in Acts 2:42-47. Scripture also describes the relationship Christians have with one another as family, since Christians are called His sons (Gal. 3:26-29). If we are truly concerned about our friends, we cannot speak of family unity until we explain how we are born into the family. It is clear, from Paul’s inspired view in Galatians 3, that salvation comes neither by immersion without faith or faith without immersion. This directly ties the nature of Christian fellowship with becoming a Christian, which has been debated throughout this discussion thread.

It would be equally wrong to extend Christian fellowship to those who are not in Christ as it would to withhold Christian fellowship to those who are in Christ. The key question to consider is; how do we determine whether one is in fellowship with Christ? In Romans chapter 5, Paul says one is “justified by faith” (verse 1) and “justified by His blood” (verse 9). In chapter 6, we can see how Paul includes immersion as part of “the faith”. We are “immersed into His death”, “buried with Him”, “united with Him in the likeness of His death”, “crucified with Him”, and “died with Him”. All of these phrases are metaphors for immersion; however, immersion not only symbolizes something it does something. It has already been established that immersion is for the forgiveness of sin (Acts 2:38, 22:16). Can a person be a Christian, in fellowship with Christ, without having the forgiveness of sin? Following the resurrection of Christ, the scriptures provide no command or example for this justification being provided outside of repentance and immersion.

Implicit in the call for unity among all “believers” (such as supported by the Promise Keepers) is that immersion is not necessary for being in Christ, as long as there is observable zeal. One can believe a lie and still be lost (II Thess. 2:11-12, Matt 7:21-23). Enthusiastic disobedience is no more acceptable to God than is unenthusiastic obedience (I Sam. 15:22, Romans 10:2). Jesus identified those as His brothers and sisters as “whoever does the will of My Father” (Matt. 12:46-50). Is unity at the expense of doctrine what Jesus prayed for in the garden? Who was Jesus praying for, the forgiven or the unforgiven? Is the “one immersion” of Eph. 4:5 less central than the “one Lord”, “one body”, “one God”, or any of the other “ones” in verses 4-6? We must always be aware of the fact that our duty is to maintain unity, not create it (4:3).

Mark Waggoner

FIRST GOAL OF HEGLIAN DIALECTIC: to produce schizophrenia in the masses (HITLER'S human material) to make them FEEL GUILTY for having peace and the law on their side. Hitler knew that you had to PURGE the masses (human material) by LYING that their old TRUTH was destructive. Of course, you have to LIE and blame the problems on the OLD CHURCHES. This is produced by AROUSING people into a STATE OF PROPHECY or ECSTASY where you travel OUTSIDE of yourself and are seduced into believing that you have been JACKED UP into the presence of the GODS. Jesus doesn't KNOW THEIR NAMES.

THE FOUNDER OF THE M. K. MOVEMENT never hesitated to tell the FOOLS what he was going to DO to them. Richard Wagner was His Musical Worship Minister: drive you into an EMOTIONAL breakdown so you FEEL religious or willing to MURDER millions of JEWS with tears of "religious joy." Sure, Hitler used the prophecy of Jesus against the Jews as His AUTHORITY to DESTROY THE PEACE and SLAUGHTER millions.

"But to me it was clear in those days that for the small basic nucleus which for the present constituted the movement, the question of war guilt had to be cleared up, and cleared up in the sense of historic truth. That our movement should transmit to the broadest masses knowledge of the PEACE TREATY was the premise for the future success of the movement.

At that time, when they all still regarded this peace as a success of democracy, we had to form a front against it and engrave ourselves forever in the minds of men as an enemy of this treaty, so that later, when the harsh reality of this treacherous frippery would be revealed in its naked hate, the recollection of our position at that time would win us confidence.

Even then I always came out in favor of taking a position in important questions of principle AGAINST ALL PUBLIC OPINION when it assumed a false attitude - DISREGARDING all considerations of POPULARITY, hatred, or struggle. The NSDAP should not become a constable of PUBLIC OPINION but must DOMINATE it. It must NOT become a servant of the masses, but THEIR MASTER!

There exists, of course, and especially for every movement that is still weak, a great temptation, in moments when a more powerful enemy has succeeded in driving the people to a mad decision or to a false attitude through his arts of seduction, to go along and JOIN the SHOUTING, particularly when there are a FEW REASONS - even if they are merely illusory - which, from the standpoint of the young movement itself, might argue for this course.

Human cowardice will seek such reasons so vigorously that it almost always finds something which would give a semblance of justification, even from one's 'own standpoint,' for participating in such a crime.

I have several times experienced such cases, in which supreme energy was necessary to keep the ship of the movement from drifting with the artificially aroused general current or rather from being driven by it.

The MASS MEETING is also necessary for the reason that in it the INDIVIDUAL, who at first while becoming a supporter of a young movement, FEELS LONELY and easily SCCUMBS to the fear of being ALONE, for the first time gets the picture of a LARGER COMMUNITY, which in most people has a strengthening, encouraging effect.

The same man, WITHIN a COMPANY or a battalion, surrounded by all his COMRADS, would set out on an attack with a lighter heart than if left entirely on his own.

In the crowd he always feels somewhat sheltered, even if a thousand reasons actually argue against it.

BUT THE COMMUNITY OF THE GREAT DEMONSTRATION not only strengthens the individual, it also UNITES and helps to create an esprit de corps.

The man who is exposed to grave tribulations, as the first advocate of a new doctrine in his factory or workshop, absolutely needs that strengthening which lies in the conviction of being a MEMBER and FIGHTER in a great COMPREHENSIVE body.

And he obtains an IMPRESSION of this body for the first time in the ASS DEMONSTRATION. When from his little workshop or big factory, in which he feels very small, he STEPS for the first time into a MASS MEETING and has thousands and thousands of people of the same opinions around him, when, as a SEEKER, (Als Suchender.' A Wagnerian phrase, which Hitler was apparently determined to use at all costs)
...he is SWEPT AWAY by three or four thousand others into the mighty effect of SUGGESTIVE INTOXICATION and enthusiasm,

...when the VISIBLE SUCCESS and agreement of thousands CONFIRM to him the RIGHTNESS of the NEW DOCTRINE and for the first time arouse doubt in the truth of his previous conviction -

....then HE HIMSELF has SUCCUMBED to the MAGIC influence of what we designate as 'MASS SUGGESTION.'

The will, the LONGING, and also the power of thousands are ACCUMULATED in every INDIVIDUAL . The man who enters such a meeting doubting and wavering leaves it INWARDLY reinforced: he has become a LINK in the COMMUNITY.

The National Socialist movement must never forget this and in particular it must never let itself be influenced by those OURGEOIS SIMPLETONS who know everything better,

...but who NEVERTHELES have GAMBLED AWAY a great state including their OWN EXISTANCE and the RULE of their CLASS.

http://www.piney.com/mkv2ch06.html

IT WAS PROPHESIED THAT JESUS WOULD NEVER CRY OUT: This means to Call a MASS MEETING. May P.K. is M.K. after all?

DON'T EVER COUNT ON THE BELIEF THAT THOSE OUTSIDE OF CHRIST ARE RATIONAL WHICH MEANS SPIRITUAL.

Jesus identified those who BELIEVETH NOT who rejected baptism as TREACHEROUS and as INFIDELS. Jesus treats those who do not speak FROM GOD as sons of the Devil. TRUTH creates anger and grinding of teeth: they will be DESPISED AND REJECTED OF MEN. When there is little fanny patting buddy bundling DON'T believe that you are in the presence of Christ Who promised to be with TWO OR THREE gathered in HIS name.

Such charismatic MIND CONTROL movements in the ancient world called it the production of VISUAL ORGASM. The TESTIMONIALS from those who SOLD their Christ- Purchasted autonomy all seem to PROVE the fact.

Anti-Christ will do these things and try to DECEIVE the ELECT (Those called OUT of the P.K. world into little schools of the Bible.) THE MASSES or HUMAN MATERIAL will go with the flow because they count themselves UNWORTHY of a quite teaching session with the God of the Universe as the Only Teacher of SPIRIT values.

Nimrod and all tyrants KNEW that ecstasy and music "ONLY APPEALS TO THE LOWER CLASSES." Some churches use NIMROD'S pyramid of power to REGULATE their churches.

Ken Sublett

I went to the "Standing in the Gap" PK meeting in Washington D.C. in I think it was 97 or 98. This was my first and last PK meeting I went to. I was very moved that during the Clinton pres. that a million men from across the nation would gather in Washington to stand for God. But during the event a few RED FLAGs shot up. The loudest alarm was "let's just all come togather and be one". At the time I was not sure what the alarm was all about but I did know enought to know it was alarming. It was not till the last 3-4 years that I now understand. I heard and End Time preacher best explain it as The great whore of Rev. 17 was calling her daughters home for the BIG party. End Timers know who the Great Whore is, but if you need help in figuring out who she is: just follow the churches cathlic roots.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

Joe, you wrote: I went to the "Standing in the Gap" PK meeting in Washington D.C. in I think it was 97 or 98 [So, you were there! Bless your heart, Joe]. This was my first and last PK meeting I went to. I was very moved that during the Clinton pres. that a million men from across the nation would gather in Washington to stand for God [Shouldn’t that tell you something, Joe? Has God retired? No. We have eyes, but some times, we don’t see his work right in front of us and around us. Could we be blinded by our disbelief and by our own theology? Jesus said: “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working” (John 5:17). Since when has God stopped? Do you think there might be one or two persons in that crowd of over one million men, who were not of the Church of Christ persuasion, who might have been saved by Jesus, and are your brothers in the Lord?]

But during the event a few RED FLAGs shot up. The loudest alarm was "let's just all come together and be one" [Did they ever ask you to compromise your belief or doctrine you hold dear to yourself? What part that came loud and clear to you that you did not understand, Joe? You were there. Weren’t you? Did you not have the same Holy Spirit in you, as in all other believers of Jesus? What spirit did you have, the Spirit of Christ, the spirit of the Church of Christ, or the spirit of Zoe? Did God’s Spirit not bear witness with your spirit that we should receive and accept one another (all who confess Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God), in the bond of peace? Is the love from God present in your heart? What does “unity of the Spirit, in the bond of peace” mean to you, Joe?]

At the time I was not sure what the alarm was all about but I did know enough to know it was alarming [Weren’t you already exposed to and influenced by the teaching and the spirit of Zoe at that time?] It was not till the last 3-4 years that I now understand. I heard and End Time preacher best explain it as the great whore of Rev. 17 was calling her daughters home for the BIG party [And that End Time preacher has littered this web site with his CACA too, right? He is the only person on this web site who advances his own version of the synagogue as the standard pattern of worship in the Church, associating the church with a Mythological whore, and pushing his Mythological and pagan garbage in our faces too, right? He constantly speaks about Zoe. He is the only one who relentlessly promotes numerous doctrines foreign to the traditional Church of Christ on this web site. He is the most prolific writer, the greatest, and most blatant “change agent” who ever existed. Can’t you see?] End Timers know who the Great Whore is, but if you need help in figuring out who she is: just follow the churches catholic roots. [Why go through that trouble? She is Zoe. Her spokesman is around to answer any question you might have. The Great Whore’s writings are all over this web site. No one should have any trouble finding them, Joe.]

To God be the Glory.

Chai Voraritskul
January 15, 2004.

Chai
Haven't heard from you in awhile. I hope you feel better now that you got that off your chest.

Let'em be, let'em sleep.
There are very very few that read this web site that understand what time it is. A couple of us and I, have tried to wake up the masses, but others visitors to this site keep yelling "Let'em be let'em sleep".

What'sa Watchman to do? WARN!
We have tried several methods and still try new methods (driven by love) to wake up the Church. This web site has been the most effective, but the Church still sleeps, and the enemy still controls them, but God still reserves His Remnant. As I have visited many congerations the Leadership (Elders and Preachers) tell me to go somewhere else, but Let'em be let'em sleep. I find it amazing that denomination that prides itself on "Speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent", will not even look at the Bible. So, Let'em be let'em sleep, if the Holy Spirit can't wake'em I know I can't.

The Remnant
Most coCers think that Proohecy and Revelations was fulfilled in 70 AD and that some unannouced day Jesus will show up. Other watch the eastern sky everday thinking this could be the day. *** This is for the Remnant**** I watch Jerusalm, I look for the soon building of the Temple and the TWO Witnesses, because then we will have a starting point. So Let'em be let'em sleep.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight


I Thessalonians 4:13-5:10

Promise Keepers vs. the Lord's Church

By Dan Flournoy


Promise Keepers is an interdenominational men's movement begun by Bill McCartney, former head football coach at the University of Colorado. It is reported that he, along with Dave Wardell, organized this movement as a means of motivating men to be better husbands and fathers.

Large rallies are being held across the country attracting an average of 50 thousand men. A few of our brethren have begun to promote PK, perhaps without considering what is involved. Please give careful consideration to some salient facts.

First, speakers at these PK meetings are all from various denominations (Raise the Standard, PK brochure for 1995, p. 16). Therefore, the meetings are denominational in nature, and the teachers are false teachers. They teach salvation by faith only, the impossibility of falling from grace, the millennial reign of Christ, and that the church is nonessential. In addition to their annual 13 meetings, PK conducts special "Clergy Conferences for Men." Regarding this, their brochure states:

Promise Keepers believe this special Clergy Conference for Men ... may serve as a catalyst for a supernatural move of God's Spirit across our land. This gathering will offer men in pastoral ministry a unique occasion to gather in a focused, corporate environment to pursue biblical unity in the body of Christ. This conference will also address issues specific to men. It is our fervent prayer at Promise Keepers that you will join your brothers for this powerful time of worship, fellowship and prayer. Together we will surrender to His will and seek His strategy for toppling the walls dividing the Church (Fan into Flame, 1996 PK Clergy Conference brochure, p. 4).

Promise Keepers is unbiblical regarding the nature and organization of the Lord's church. PK teaches a "pastor system" of church organization which is contrary to the New Testament pattern of a plurality of elders overseeing a local congregation (1 Tim. 3:17; Titus 1:512). The truth regarding how to be saved and the nature of the church is not preached by PK.

The only biblical "strategy for toppling the walls dividing the Church" is to give up denominational names, creeds, titles, false doctrines and take the Bible as the only rule of faith and practice.

Second, PK has a creed entitled "Seven Promises of Promise Keepers" (Raise the Standard, PK brochure, 1995, p. 16). It is a Calvinistic creed teaching one cannot be obedient to the Word of God except by the power of the Holy Spirit exerted separate from the gospel.

PK teaches the false doctrine of "unity in diversity," (that is, we all agree not to take any doctrinal stand on anything). Those who join PK must disregard plain Bible teaching about fellowship with those who do not preach or practice the truth (2 John 911).

Third, PK is in direct opposition to the Lord's church. It seeks to supplant the church for which Jesus died. When one obeys the gospel, he is added to the church, the body of Christ (Acts 2:47; Col. 1:13). Christians owe their allegiance to Christ as the head of the body and to the church for which he died. PK seeks to draw away disciples into a separate organization guided by the doctrines of men.

Fourth, those who attend PK meetings sing, stomp, and clap to the beat of instrumental music (Lore B. Postelwait, Christian Chronicle, Aug. 1995, pp. 1415). Such behavior violates Jesus' instruction to worship in spirit and in truth (John 4:24).

Peter pointed out that false teachers often use religion for personal gain: "And in covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you" (2 Peter 2:13). Each man attending a PK meeting is charged $55. There are 13 rallies each year with an average of 50,000 men at each rally. This comes to a $35,750,000! Add the sale of PK caps, lapel pens, Tshirts, tapes, videos, and books ("Men of Action," PK Newsletter, April 1995, p. 12). The PK Clergy Conference requires a $95 registration fee. PK is big business!

Promoters of PK argue that this denominational men's movement "is fulfilling one of the most needed missions in America today. It is waking up husbands and fathers to their moral and ethical responsibilities within the home" (Howard Norton, Christian Chronicle, Sept. 1995, p. 18). As if the church could not do this. If the church, teaching the inspired Word of God cannot make us perfect in the sight of the Lord, then the church is a big mistake (1 Tim. 3:15; 2 Tim. 3:1617).

Fifth, it is argued that PK is a wakeup call from God. Another writer put it this way, "I believe God has raised up Promise Keepers as an act of love and mercy for our beleaguered nation" (Tom Bost, Christian Chronicle, Oct. 1995, p. 2). Another PK promoter, Michael O'Donnell, associate professor at Abilene Christian University, and executive director of the Southwest Center for Fathering said:

I think this is God's agenda. Go back to Malachi 4:56. It is a prophesy saying that we will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and children to their fathers. If that does not occur, God says he will strike the land with a curse. We need to ask the question: 'Is our land cursed?' I think the answer is yes (Michael O'Donnell, Christian Chronicle, Aug. 1995, p. 14).

O'Donnell misrepresents Malachi 4:56. It is not a prophesy that "we" will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and children to their fathers. Rather it is a prophecy regarding the coming of John the baptizer (figuratively referred to as Elijah). Part of his work of preparing the way for the Messiah would be to turn the hearts of fathers to their children and children to their fathers (Luke 1:17). The misapplication of Scripture to justify fellowship with error is a trademark of apostasy.

The idea that God is behind the PK movement accuses God of endorsing false teachers. This is like saying that God has raised up the Pope to speak out on the abortion evil.

Chuck Swindoll, president of Dallas Theological Seminary and a PK speaker, teaches the direct operation of the Holy Spirit and Dispensational Millennialism, as well as other false doctrines. He teaches that the church is nonessential and that the Lord's kingdom has been postponed until some future time.

Greg Laurie, a PK speaker, preaches salvation by faith alone and teaches people to say "the sinners prayer" to be saved:

Believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and rose again. Receive, through prayer, Jesus Christ into your heart and life. Pray something like this from the sincerity of your heart: I believe You died for my sins and then rose from the grave. Right now, I turn from my sins and open the door of my heart and life. I receive You as my personal Lord and Savior. Thank You for saving me. Amen. Then tell a believing friend and a pastor about your commitment (Greg Laurie, New Believer's Growth Book, Riverside, California: Harvest Ministries, 1985, p. 8).

Imagine the apostle John publishing this in the church bulletin at Ephesus:

Attention Men! The Gnostics are holding a giant rally on "How to Keep Your Promises" next week in the great stadium in Ephesus. Here is what you need to do: First, pray that the Spirit of God would powerfully reveal Jesus Christ to every man who comes to the stadium that day. Second, invite and travel with not only your friends and family but with men from different ethnic and denominational heritages. (Ask some of your friends from the circumcision party to come along.) Let us together seize the privilege that God is extending to us, that He might transform us in a way that ignites revival in this land" (Taken directly from the PK brochure with a few obvious changes).

John's attitude toward false teachers is:

Whosoever goeth onward and abideth not in the teaching of Christ, hath not God: he that abideth in the teaching, the same hath both the Father and the Son. If any one cometh unto you, and bringeth not this teaching, receive him not into your house, and give him no greeting: for he that giveth him greeting partaketh in his evil works (2 John 911).

PK and those in the church who support it believe in a direct operation of the Holy Spirit. They believe that PK "may serve as a catalyst for a supernatural move of God's Spirit across our land." They believe that "this is God's agenda" and that "God has raised up Promise Keepers."

No one opposes men becoming better fathers and husbands. However, it is not necessary for Christians to join with denominational error to achieve the end of promoting fatherhood.

There a difference between reading a denominational commentary and actively participating in and endorsing a denominational worship service. One preacher and editor said in defense of PK:

Our religious libraries in Christian universities and preacher training schools would be woefully short of good materials if the only books on the shelves were those written by our scholars. What preacher would deny having been blessed by the religious writings of men like Barnes, Clarke, Hastings, Lenski, Barclay, Dobson, Colson, Stott, Bruce, or Henry? We readily agree that some of their writings were wrong, but so much of what they wrote was right that we must not neglect their insights (Howard Norton, Christian Chronicle, Oct. 1995, p. 20).

One should know the difference between reading a commentary written by. a false teacher and promoting a denominational meeting where false teachers present their heresy to the unsuspecting, and engaging in sinful worship. Does brother Howard really think that consulting a commentary equates to singing religious songs to the sound of the piano, guitars, drums, and flutes. If he does, he should never read from another commentary written by a false teacher, or he should cease his opposition to the use of mechanical instruments of music in worship and praise of God. He set this dilemma for himself.

It is argued by brothers who endorse PK that the real problem is with "us" not "them." We in the churches of Christ have a problem because we have not sufficiently equipped our people to distinguish "bones from fish."

The very purpose of the Christian ministry is to equip God's people to thrive and survive in a real world that is saturated with imperfect concepts and ideologies. Elders and preachers cannot begin to know all the false teachings and influences suffered by their members on a daily basis. The leaders' task is to provide spiritual education so that when no elder or preacher is around, church members will know how to separate the fish from the bones (Howard Norton, Christian Chronicle, Oct. 1995).

The problem is not whether brethren can distinguish between fish and bones, between truth and error. Some can; some cannot. The problem lies with brethren who insist on bringing denominational error into the church of our Lord. It lies with those who uphold false teachers and promote their causes.

For years our brethren have conducted seminars, lectureships, and workshops on marriage, the family, and the roles of men and women in the church. Preachers and elders have conducted men's leadership classes, and volumes have been written regarding the need for male spiritual leadership. To suggest that the church has done nothing in the area of male leadership is wrong.

Promise Keepers is an interdenominational organization promoting denominational doctrines in the name of helping men keep their commitments. Those who promote PK in the name of tolerance are promoting damnable heresies.

Remember Jesus' warning: "Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves" (Matt. 7:15) .

———————————————————————————————————————————
Source: Preacher’s Files: Denominations: Promise Keepers

I am not a spokesperson for the PK Movement, but I will again respond to Dan Flournoy’s article. I will comment on his first four points. They are as follows: [and my remarks].

First, speakers at these PK meetings are all from various denominations (Raise the Standard, PK brochure for 1995, p. 16). Therefore, the meetings are denominational in nature [To me, your post too is very denominational in nature, but PK meetings are not. They are not dividing as you are doing here with your writing. They are communicating, fellowshipping, and uniting. In a typical PK meeting, twenty thousand to fifty thousand men, setting aside their doctrinal differences, come together to seek mutual edification in the Lord, and reconciliation with one another and with God. They practice acceptance as Paul has commanded us to do (Romans 15:7). They show their love and respect for one another. These are the essential ingredients for unity (Colossians 3:12-14). They build bridges, and remove walls, while you bomb the bridges, fortify the walls, build ivory towers, establish strong holds, boycott, attack, shut the doors, denominate, and criticize.] and the teachers are false teachers [You don’t agree with them, and they don’t agree with you, so you call them false teachers. Since you don’t agree with me, you too are a false teacher to me. What do we do now? The devil loves your attitude, Dan.]

They teach salvation by faith only, the impossibility of falling from grace, the millennial reign of Christ, and that the church is nonessential [They who? The speakers in the PK events? They are believers of Jesus, well known and highly respected among conservative, evangelical churches. They walk with the Lord and all believe in the inerrancy of the Scripture. I may not agree with them on some theological matter. But, I don’t agree with you, and you don’t agree with other brothers in the Lord’s church either. Will we all ever agree perfectly with one another on everything? I am convinced that there are theological issues that we will never agree with one another till the Lord comes. Are these salvation issues? If not, shouldn't we give each other liberty to have our own convictions? Isn’t this normal (1Corinthians 11:19)? What does the Paul advise us to do (Romans 14:22, 23)? What is his command (Romans 15:7)? What part of this command you don’t understand? Why are you ignoring this command, Dan?]

(In addition to their annual 13 meetings, PK conducts special "Clergy Conferences for Men." Regarding this, their brochure states:

Promise Keepers believe this special Clergy Conference for Men ... may serve as a catalyst for a supernatural move of God's Spirit across our land. This gathering will offer men in pastoral ministry a unique occasion to gather in a focused, corporate environment to pursue biblical unity in the body of Christ. This conference will also address issues specific to men. It is our fervent prayer at Promise Keepers that you will join your brothers for this powerful time of worship, fellowship and prayer. Together we will surrender to His will and seek His strategy for toppling the walls dividing the Church (Fan into Flame, 1996 PK Clergy Conference brochure, p. 4).

Promise Keepers is unbiblical regarding the nature and organization of the Lord's church [Unbiblical?]. PK teaches a "pastor system" of church organization, which is contrary to the New Testament pattern of a plurality of elders overseeing a local congregation (1 Tim. 3:17; Titus 1:512) [PK is not a local church. PK exists to support the local churches, and individual church, meaning each believer of Jesus Christ. The issues of “plurality” of elders, a “pastoral system,” or the scope of responsibilities of one single eldership over a local congregation or over an entire township or a city (Titus 1:5) are theological issues that exists among churches for years. PK exists neither to promote more controversies, nor to settle theological issues that exist among the churches.] The truth regarding how to be saved and the nature of the church is not preached by PK. [Wrong. On Friday evening of every PK conference, the gospel and the plan of salvation are preached, straight from the Bible. An invitation is extended to the audience. Thousands of men responded each time. How many times have you seen a few men coming to Christ in your congregation lately? On Saturday, they deal with issues facing the church. Just attend a PK conference in 2004, Dan. Get a first hand knowledge of your subject, then state your opinion again.]

The only biblical "strategy for toppling the walls dividing the Church" is to give up denominational names, creeds, titles, false doctrines and take the Bible as the only rule of faith and practice [Is this your unity strategy? Is it working? Have you ever seen any denomination come banging at any Church of Christ’s door in the last 100 years? Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. Has your “so called Biblical strategy” toppled any walls lately? Look at the fruit of your strategy within the Churches of Christ in the last 100 years. Are we now more united today within our brotherhood or more divided, compared to 100 years ago? You have to be blind, or live in denial, not to see the reality. Look at this web site. “Very pretty. Keep on and keepinnnnn’ on. Don’t stop. Don’t change. Protect your status quo. Fight, fight, fight!” Attack, attack, attack, says the devil.]

[Wake up, Dan. Recognize these facts: Most of our differences will never go away, not in the church any time soon (1Corinthian 11:17-19), and not even in the New Jerusalem (Revelations 21: 24-26). Jesus and his Spirit still inhabit the church (Colossians 1:27; 1Corinthians 2:10-16). Unity is in, of, and by his Spirit of Jesus (Ephesians 4:3). Unity is in our faith and in our knowledge of the Son of God (Ephesians 4:13). Can we have unity in our faith and in our knowledge concerning Jesus, that he is the Son of God and the Savior of the world? Yes, we can. Like it or not, there will be peace and acceptance in the brotherhood of believers, in spite of our doctrinal differences (Romans 12:18; Ephesians 4:3). This is possible only through the love and presence of Jesus in the life of his church, individually, collectively, and universally (John 17:26).]

[When unity in the Spirit, in faith, and in the knowledge of Jesus as the Son of God, is absent, it is because either Jesus, or his love is absent (Colossians 3:14). PK Movement is personifying Christ’s prayer in John 17:20-26. PK facilitates unity among all churches that have been divided since the beginning of the church. Don’t pontificate from ignorance, Dan. Unless and until the Spirit and the Mind of Christ is in control, one will continue to function blindly as a nay-sayer and detractor of God’s activities among men.]

Second, PK has a creed entitled "Seven Promises of Promise Keepers" (Raise the Standard, PK brochure, 1995, p. 16). It is a Calvinistic creed [You are presumptuous.] teaching one cannot be obedient to the Word of God except by the power of the Holy Spirit exerted separate from the gospel [Have you not read what Jesus said in John 3:8? What does it mean? Do you know how does the Spirit work? What about John 6:43-47? Is this Calvinistic? Can anyone come to Jesus on his own? No. What is the Father’s role in this? You tell me. “He who (does what?) Has everlasting life.” What do all these mean to you?]

PK teaches the false doctrine of "unity in diversity," [What is false about “unity in diversity?” Is there any need to call for unity, if diversity does not exist?] (that is, we all agree not to take any doctrinal stand on anything) [Not true. We all take our stand. Have I asked you to compromise your personal opinion, feeling, preference, or understanding on any issue? Do I compromise with you? Why am I writing this? Do I not take a stand? And yet, the Lord calls us to have unity in the Spirit, in faith, and in the knowledge of Jesus, in the bond of peace (Ephesians 4:3, 13). PK calls all believers to do just that. Unity is in, by, through, and of the Spirit of Jesus. Where Jesus and the love of God are present, unity will prevail, overriding our differences].

Those who join PK must disregard plain Bible teaching about fellowship with those who do not preach or practice the truth (2 John 9-11) [Wrong. I do not disregard any plain Bible teaching. On the contrary, I uphold the scripture. To me, you are the one not preaching or practicing the truth. The scripture (2John 10) warns me about you and applies to you as a false teacher too. But, I don’t regard you as a false teacher, brother. I know the Lord will deal with you and with me just like he does with all his children (Hebrews 12:5-15). He will create us anew everyday, (2Corinthians 5:17-6:13), and this involves changes, like it or not. Despise not the changes nor the “agents of change.” They could be for our ultimate good. We are God’s workmanship created for good works (Ephesians 2:10); not bad works, and Christ will transform every one of us.]

Third, PK is in direct opposition to the Lord's church. It seeks to supplant the church for which Jesus died. [False] When one obeys the gospel, he is added to the church, the body of Christ (Acts 2:47; Col. 1:13). Christians owe their allegiance to Christ as the head of the body and to the church for which he died [True]. PK seeks to draw away disciples into a separate organization guided by the doctrines of men [False. PK is a Para-church organization. All Para-church organizations exist to facilitate, assist, serve, and build up the church of Jesus Christ. They do not supplant church. Are you ignorant, or are you intentionally making a false and slanderous statement, brother?]

Fourth, those who attend PK meetings sing, stomp, and clap to the beat of instrumental music (Lore B. Postelwait, Christian Chronicle, Aug. 1995, pp. 1415). Such behavior violates Jesus' instruction to worship in spirit and in truth (John 4:24) [According to you and the traditional doctrine of the Church of Christ, but not Jesus. You can sing, stomp and clap to the beat of instrumental music at a football game, right? But when you come before the Lord to praise him and adore him, you cannot sing, stomp, and clap, right? Worship is like going to a funeral to you, right? If you can’t clap. Can you raise your hands just up to your tummy level? Can you raise them higher? Can you tap your feet? Can you just sway your body a little? Can you scratch if you itch? Wouldn’t that be distracting to others? Are you authorized to smile while you sing? Are we in dispute? Isn’t this a disputable matter? What does Paul say in Romans 14:1, 10, 12, 13, 16, 19, 22, and 15:1-7 concerning things of this nature? Are you any kin to Diotrephes of 3 John 9, 10?]

Peter pointed out that false teachers often use religion for personal gain: "And in covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you" (2 Peter 2:13). Each man attending a PK meeting is charged $55. There are 13 rallies each year with an average of 50,000 men at each rally. This comes to a $35,750,000! Add the sale of PK caps, lapel pens, T-shirts, tapes, videos, and books ("Men of Action," PK Newsletter, April 1995, p. 12). The PK Clergy Conference requires a $95 registration fee. PK is big business! [From what I know, PK almost went broke a number of times. Do you know anyone getting rich through PK? Call them up and request a financial statement and see where all the money goes. Do not slander, brother. It is a sin. Forget not that the Lord will hold you accountable for everything you say, or write. See Matthew 12:33-37.]

Promoters of PK argue that this denominational men's movement "is fulfilling one of the most needed missions in America today. It is waking up husbands and fathers to their moral and ethical responsibilities within the home" (Howard Norton, Christian Chronicle, Sept. 1995, p. 18) [Very true]. As if the church could not do this [Don’t just blow smoke, Dan. Why don’t you take the lead? Get a few men in your congregation together and announce your plan to the world. I will join you. Must we wait until we are in complete agreement on everything first? Or, are you just talking up a good game?]

If the church, teaching the inspired Word of God cannot make us perfect in the sight of the Lord, then the church is a big mistake (1 Tim. 3:15; 2 Tim. 3:1617) [Let’s get this straight. It is not the church that makes us perfect. Christ is the one who makes us perfect (Ephesians 4:11-16). I agree and know that the church of Jesus Christ is not a mistake. On the other hand, the Church of Christ, as we know it today, is more than happy to affirm to the world that we are the only right church. We have got the right name, and the right stuff. We are the only right kind of New Testament church in existence on the face of the earth today. We are undenominated. All denominational churches are wrong. We are right. Salvation is in the Lord’s church. If you are not a member of that church, you go straight to hell. Who is to say this is a big mistake?]

Chai Voraritskul
Jan. 19, 2004.

Chai,

You have presented numerous arguments as to why you feel the church that belongs to Christ should open its doors to the denominational world and accept varying doctrines, beliefs and practices. Many of your remarks are certainly troubling to those of us who are “endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (Eph. 4:3). I Cor. 1:10 states, “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” Now, Chai, frankly, let’s not waste precious time debating the passages I have just quoted. That’s not my intent here.

I’m interested only in knowing your answers to the following question(s). Since you are advocating “open fellowship” with various religious groups, faiths and denominations, which of the following, in your opinion, should be “in the brotherhood” of churches of Christ? Please answer “yes” or “no” and provide at least one controversial doctrine associated with each denomination … that such doctrine “should not matter”:

• Assembly of God
• Of Bahai faith
• Baptist
• Buddhist
• Christian Scientist
• Episcopalian
• Hindu
• Islamic
• Jehovah’s Witness
• Jewish
• Lutheran
• Methodist
• Mormon
• Orthodox
• Presbyterian
• Roman Catholic
• Seventh Day Adventist
• United Church of Christ

Donnie Cruz

Donnie, you asked for yes / no answers and brief statements. Here they are.

• Assembly of God. Yes. Jesus is Lord. The Bible is the word of God.
• Of Bahai faith. No. Jesus is not the only way. The Bible is not the only book.
• Baptist. Yes. Jesus is Lord. The Bible is the word of God.
• Buddhist. No. Buddha is Lord. The Bible? What kind of book is this?
• Christian Scientist. I don’t know until I hear the answers individually.
• Episcopalian. I don’t know. Some are Spirit filled. Some are not.
• Hindu. No. We already have hundreds of gods. Jesus who?
• Islamic. No. Jesus is only a prophet. He was not God who came in the flesh.
• Jehovah’s Witness. I don’t know. I need to ask each person two questions.
• Jewish. No. Jesus is not the Messiah. “We don’t believe in the NT.”
• Lutheran. Yes. Jesus is Lord. The Bible is the word of God.
• Methodist. Yes. Jesus is Lord. The Bible is the word of God.
• Mormon. No. A different Jesus. The Bible is not the only book.
• Orthodox. Yes. Jesus is Lord. The Bible is the word of God.
• Presbyterian. Yes. Jesus is Lord. The Bible is the word of God.
• Roman Catholic. Yes and No. Mary is worshiped. Bible is not followed.
• Seventh Day Adventist. I don’t know. Jesus is Lord, but Bible is not the only book.
• United Church of Christ. I don’t know. Was Jesus resurrected? Trust the Bible?

In case you are also interested in how I arrive at these answers, here is my explanation. There are two levels of fellowship that we have to consider, i.e., one is at an institutional level and another is at an individual level. I did not set up any religious institution, neither I am in charge of any religious institution, so I don’t speak for any of them. Furthermore, I do not speak for any Church of Christ, or have the power to usher in any change within the Churches of Christ. What I say may or may not amount to a hill of beans to any religious entity.

But, this much I know, Jesus did not die to save any institution, church entity, and / or any religious organization. At his second return, all earthly institutions will be done away with. Everything at Madison Church of Christ, Richland Hills Church of Christ, and all the “Poor-Widows” Churches of Christ being stolen by the change agents, along with the Baptist denomination, Buddhist temples, and Jewish synagogues will all go up in flames in a gigantic mega bon fire (2 Peter 3:7, 10-13). Jesus does not come back for any religious institution or organization anywhere. He is coming back for individuals. They are warm blooded, two legged individual bodies. They are persons, scattered throughout this planet earth, in whom his Spirit indwells. They are his individual churches. He knows who they are and where they are, because he is always in touch with them through his Spirit, and they with him.

Concerning fellowship, again I speak for myself, on an individual level, not on an institutional level. All of my answers above are personal. I will, as a church, personally indwelled by the Spirit of Jesus, fellowship anyone whom Jesus will fellowship. He fellowshipped with sinners. He accepted invitations from the Pharisees and he ate with them, in their homes. I accepted invitations and ate in the homes of Buddhists and in the Buddhist temples whenever they invited me. I ate with the Baptists and believers in various denominations many times. I engaged them in religious discussions when the conversation headed in that direction. I shared, I communicated, and spent a great deal of my time with Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Baptists, Presbyterians, Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormon elders as friends and as strangers in my life time. I invited them to my house and my church assembly. If they wish to speak or make a statement, if I have any say so, I might even allow that, provided that I am in charge, and I too speak and have the last word. When they invited me to speak in their meeting place, I spoke. I was their guest. They had the last word. If this is not fellowship, what is it? Do you have a different definition of fellowship? Define it for me then. Do I practice what they practice? No, if the Bible is not their guide. Do I compromise with anyone on my religious conviction, my faith, and what I know to be the truth? No. Neither did Jesus. Does it have any impact on other believers, both young and old in a local congregation? Absolutely. How else do they learn how to engage a nonbeliever if they are isolated and insulated from the world? How else do they learn how to resolve issues without splitting up a congregation? They need to see how it is done. How did Jesus train his disciples? Did he put them in a monastery, send them to a seminary, or a Christian college? Did he send them out two by two without first letting them see how he conducted himself in various situations?

Who is my brother and sister in the Lord? Is this what you really want to know? This is how and where I draw my line, on the individual basis and individual level. Church or religious institutions may be cooperative, competitive, or antagonistic toward other similar institutions. They may accept and do things together, or reject each other and do their own things. I am not their decision maker. As a believer, I do have an obligation to receive and accept other believers of Jesus (Romans 15:7; 3 John 8-10). Our disagreement on the food, alcoholic drink, sacred days, style of worship, music in worship, women’s role in the church, description of a deacon, one communion cup or many cups, Sunday school classes or no classes, and ad infinitum, is not a ground for division within a church (Romans 14:19-23). We either obey or disobey. Either sit up or split up. Walk by the Spirit or walk by the flesh.

This is how I identify my real friends and foes: “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood” (1 John 4:1-6).

Jesus said: “A spirit (ghost) has no flesh and bone (Luke 24:39-43). How then do we recognize a spirit? A spirit works through one or more human bodies. One spirit can and will manifest himself in many human bodies (1 John 2:18-23). The spirit of the “Antichrist” will manifest himself in the bodies of many antichrists, throughout the history of mankind. Similarly, the Holy Spirit (KJV: Holy Ghost) from the Father also inhabits all believers of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:17-21). “The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you (all believers of Jesus) know him, for he lives with you and will be (now is) in you” (John 14:17). The one (the Holy Spirit) who is in you is greater than the one (Satan) who is in the world (1 John 4:4).

Who is the antichrist? He is the great dragon, the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him (Revelation 12:9). “His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth” (Revelation 12:4). These stars are wicked angels, evil spirits, and demons. Jesus identified Satan as the “Prince of this world” (John 16:11). All kingdoms, governments, ruling powers, real estates, everything in the physical realm, including our earth suits, our physical bodies on this planet earth belong to Satan (Genesis 3:19; Romans 7:18; 1 John 2:15-17). Satan offered his kingdoms to Jesus, if Jesus would bow down and worship him (Matthew 4:8-11). Satan, the great dragon, rules this world through two angelic principalities. One controls the physical realm, and the other controls the mind (Revelation 13).

The physical ruling power is done through the “Beast out of the Sea” (Revelation 13:1-10). This beast is one of the wicked angels who was hurled down to earth with the dragon. This unnamed but very powerful angel (principality) was given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them (physically, militarily, by force) (Revelation 13:7). Without exception, all governing powers that ever existed on planet earth are under the control of this beast. All world empires, i.e., Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Media-Persian, Grecian, and the Roman Empires were under this principal power. We have a glimpse of the angelic force of good and evil doing battles in Daniel 10:13, 14. All believers of Jesus are involved in these battles as well, against the angelic force of evil (Ephesians 6:10-18). “One of the (seven) heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed (the wound occurred when the force of evil crucified Jesus, but he conquered death once and for all eternity.) The whole world followed the beast (identified again in Revelation 17:3). Men worshiped the dragon because he (Satan) had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, ‘Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?” (Revelation 13:3b-4). This beast engages Christ in battles in the past, in the present, and will in the future. The final battle and its outcome are prophesized in Revelation 19:17-21.

The mind controlling power of Satan is done through the “Beast out of the Earth” (Revelation 13:11-18). He had two horns like a lamb [counterfeiting the Lamb of God] but he spoke like a dragon [the devil] (vs. 11). He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. This beast performed miracles and deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the first beast (vv.13-17). This beast is identified as the “False Prophet” in Revelation 16:13f, 19:20). This beast works through spirits of demons performing miraculous signs (vs. 14). These spirits are the spirit of antichrist (Revelation 16:13) They inhabit the bodies of the false prophets. False prophets lie against the truth. God’s word is truth (John 17:17). Jesus is the personification of truth (John 14:6).

To identify a friend or a foe of Jesus, I need ask one or two crucial questions: The first question: “Who is Jesus Christ to you?” Or, “Is Jesus God, who came in human flesh and blood?” I will wait for the answer. The answer reveals the spirit.

“This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit (speaking through a person) that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit (speaking through a person) that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world” (1 John 4:2, 3).

“Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist – he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also” (1 John 2:22, 23).

No Jew, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, or any pagan person will or can confess that Jesus is God who came in the flesh into this world. None! Try it and see! Only believers of Jesus, from the heart, can say or confess that about Jesus. This is confirmed also by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:3 “… No one can say, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ except by the Holy Spirit.” When a person confesses with sincerity and conviction that “Jesus is the Lord and Master of my life.” He speaks by the Holy Spirit. This person is my brother or sister in the Lord. That is all the proof I need. Everything else is excess baggage. Disagreements on disputable matters do not give me ground to refuse fellowship, according to apostle Paul (Romans 15:7).

In case of doubt concerning cultic teaching, I will ask a second question: “Do you believe in every word spoken by Jesus and his apostles as recorded in the Bible?” Or, “What kind of faith do you have in the word spoken by Jesus and his apostles? In theological jargon, “Does he believe in the inerrancy of the Scripture?” I will again wait for the answer. The in the course of conversation, the Spirit of truth or the spirit of falsehood will be manifested, according to 1 John 4:6.

From the scripture of 1 John, chapters 2 and 4, anyone will know where to draw the line where the Spirit of Christ instructs us to draw. Any believer of Jesus can identify friends and foes of Jesus with a deadly accuracy, in a New York minute. Do you want to meet the real enemies, the real antichrists in actions? Visit any country where missionaries or Christians are killed or thrown in jail for telling people the good news about Christ. There are more Christians killed and persecuted each day now than in the early church period. Investigate any institution, organization, or entities in our country or in other countries where one of the agenda is to remove God, Christ, and the teaching of the Bible from the people. Share your faith with anyone who might shout in your face: “Mind your own @#%!* business. This is my life. Leave me alone. I am the captain of my soul. I did it my way. Shut up, you fundamental, rightwing, intolerant, Jesus freak.” And you will have a glimpse of the antichrists around the world and around you in their natural elements. They are the real agents of the antichrist. They are the false teachers. They are the false prophets. And they are vocal. They are liars (1 John 2:22). Some are as mad as hell (Revelation 12:12-17)! They can and will kill you, me, and any believer of Jesus (Revelation 13:7; Acts 7:54-60, 12:1-4; 2 Timothy 4:6-9; Revelation 2:9-11, 12, 13). Fear not. Without God’s permission, they cannot touch anyone of us (Matthew 10:26-42).

Why do we fight and fuss with each other? Are fellow believers of Jesus Christ our enemies? Are they false teachers? No. Are they false prophets? No. Are we so ignorant that we don’t know how to identify the friends and foes of Christ? Should we keep on rejecting and shooting those who are on our side? What for?

Chai Voraritskul
February 3, 2004

Chai,

Please take a deep breath and calm down. All I had wanted to know from you was how you would categorize with whom to fellowship from those with whom not to fellowship. You’ve done that well and I thank you for it. But I didn’t ask for the same verbiage you’ve been preaching constantly on Concerned Members’ RHCC website and now here. You’re not going to convince me and the majority among the churches of Christ. I honestly believe that the best thing for you to do is to preach your ecumenical message where it belongs—out there in the divided religious world and see how willing they are to give up their denominational creeds, beliefs and practices for the truth revealed in the New Testament for the New Testament church. Who knows … they just might be more accepting and welcoming to the “Chai Open Fellowship” doctrine?

Donnie Cruz

Chai is, like all of us, free to relate to anyone on any ground. But, chai has gone beyond redemption by calling Jesus a liar and JUDGING AS SAVED those who can say JUST JESUS.

Only preachers like Chai make the statements to APPROVE or DISAPPROVE others. Pastor-teachers are to "teach that which has been taught" and tell people what Jesus told them without naming names. Again, slowly:

Jesus said that the preached gospel was to

MAKE DISCIPLES. There are two parts which God in Christ absolutely demanded. By:

BAPTIZING

and

TEACHING WHAT JESUS TAUGHT AND INSPIRED.

Disciples were Christians: Christians were disciples.

By absolute Biblical definition by the Spirit of Christ whatever GOD DECIDES about salvation for the 'WHAT IFS' it is an imposibility to be a CHRISTIAN without being a BAPTIZED BELIEVERS. "Believers" or 'believing' is always retrospective and there are no unbaptized believers in the New Testament or church history until Zwingli invented "Believer's Baptism" or FAITH ONLY as late as 1525.

Luther's Faith only insisted that it meant that whatever the BIBLE said must be accepted or there is NO FAITH. Furthermore, he said that SALVATION was by BAPTISM ONLY because God in Christ told him so. If he tried to weasel out of it Luther denied that he would have faith.

There is no regeneration, remission of sins or a dozen other GIFTS OF GRACE which are not connected to baptism. Those who rejected the counsel of God by refusing to be baptized were identified as treacherous infidels. It is an absolute fact that God made baptism the MARK and the MEANS of those He defined as BELIEVERS. Those who say BUT are not fit for the kingdom and will not be THE FEW GOOD MEN to move into the Spirit realm. Preachers cannot see that Paul goes over and over this even when he does not use the word BAPTISM.

To reject the clear once-believed words of the spirit means to fall from grace and THERE IS NO FURTHER sacrifice into which one may be baptized. Heb. 6

Chai is like that prophesied fellow who tries to drown the church by a FLOOD of detached verses which can all be refuted. Chai, take a pill, and call us next year.

Don't try to pet him: he will turn and rend you.

One more thing Chai must JUDGE as saved: that is clergy who lie, cheat and steal the church houses of widows and spout the same blasphemy: Just Jesus. That says to Jesus what music in the OT always said to God: "We will no longer hear your words."

Ken

”Please take a deep breath and calm down [Have I seen a mighty rushing wind or what? I am cool, brother.] All I had wanted to know from you was how you would categorize with whom to fellowship from those with whom not to fellowship [Now Lord, why did I have to write all these scriptures down and explain them as clearly as I could, for nothing? Donnie does not even want them. All he wanted was just a few shots of my hot air. It is not meant for him? Seven thousand other pairs of eyeballs? OK!] You’ve done that well [Thank you] and I thank you for it [You are welcome. No sweat, man]. But I didn’t ask for the same verbiage you’ve been preaching constantly on Concerned Members’ RHCC website [Oooh..., he read my verbiage posted on the RHCC section too, but he does not like what I wrote there either. What do I do now?] and now here. [Again, he probably thinks that I am trespassing on his play ground. Should I quit? Should I tip toe around him?]

“You’re not going to convince me and the majority among the churches of Christ [Is it my job to convince or convict anyone? Whose job is it?]. I honestly believe that the best thing for you to do is to preach your ecumenical message where it belongs [What you honestly believe is being disputed, Donnie. If you want to continue the “brain washing” process, you might want to use some scripture as your soap. I don’t see one single Biblical reference from you here. My ecumenical message is all from the Bible, and you did not respond, not on one single point. I know you are familiar with the teaching of the Bible, but when is the last time you actually read, mediated, and investigated on any of the references I gave in my posts? Forget about my verbiage. Just let the Lord speak to you through his written word. Why don’t you do that? Then tell me about the “ecumenical message.”] — out there in the divided religious world [I do] and see how willing they are to give up their denominational creeds, beliefs and practices for the truth revealed in the New Testament for the New Testament church [I found the same kind of mindset out there too. Your mindset is neither new nor unique, brother. It’s everywhere; a dime a dozen. The Lord can open some eyes but not every eye will be opened (Matthew 13:14, 15). They build their convictions on a carefully developed theology, but not on the actual word of God.] Who knows … they just might be more accepting and welcoming to the ‘Chai Open Fellowship’ doctrine?” [Don’t read my lips on “Open Fellowship Doctrine,” Donnie. Read the scripture! Let the Spirit speak. Who knows… Who knows.]

Chai Voraritskul
Feb. 4, 2004.

Chai, I must agree with you. You have ably explained your position and it is one that most closely follows biblical interpretation prinicples. You have reasoned carefully and given scriptural support to your positions.

It was not until my late 30's that I was taught to more closely follow the context of a scripture. Previously, I had excelled at picking a religious fight with anyone who was not Church of Christ. Then I met Bro. Daughtry who taught me great lessons on context. As he would be apt to say, A PROOFTEXT TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT IS A PRETEXT. Truer words could not be spoken.

I doubt that it is possible for any two people on earth to agree on everything. I doubt that Ken and Donnie would agree on everthing. Certainly, all those whose articles have been posted taking issue with contemporary modes of worship do not agree on all issues. (Make a careful reading and it is obvious.) But that is what Donnie would have you believe by his use of I Cor. 1:10 - that everyone must agree absolutely on every issue. That is not what the scripture is telling us.

To properly understand I Cor. 1:10, you must read I Cor. 1:10-31. Look at what CONTEXT will tell us. The disciples were split on who to follow. They were quarreling as some were following Apollos, some Paul, some Cephas, and some Christ. Look at what Paul tells them. "Is Christ divided? Was Paul cruicified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?" He does not tell them that they must agree on all issues, but rather that they must all agree on who to follow. That is proper contextual interpretation (exegesis) of I Cor. 1:10. CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT

So the question would then boil down to this: Do those who do not properly observe I Cor. 1:10 (and other scriptures on unity), by drawing lines of fellowship that scripture does not draw, violate biblical principles. Much has been written on restoration principles, but the most admirable plea of the restoration movement was "Christians only - but not the only Christians" For too long, I helped to create a denomination known as the Church of Christ by drawing lines where scripture did not draw lines. For that I have asked for forgiveness from my Creator and His blessings in my attempt to be a Christian only.

Tom

Tom

God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Cor 1:9
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Cor 1:10

The word speak is

Lego (g3004) leg'-o; a prim. verb; prop. to "lay" forth, i.e. (fig.) relate (in words [usually of systematic or set discourse

This is in CONTRAST to an extended harangue (sermon)

By speaking the same things DIVISION would be precluded. If "that which is written" is the standard then Paul clearly says that whatever comes out of Apollo's OWN MIND should not be spoken in the assembly. As soon as someone MOUNTS the pulpit division MUST occur.

A perfectly joined fishing net is MENDED. There is only ONE NET or you will not catch fish. There is only ONE VOICE or you will REND the body. If "sista" sings from the "holy place" then some will fall under authentia authority which is erotic and murderous.

Those in Corinth who were speak or singing were doing so in THEIR OWN MIND. They were SPEAKING to God but Paul said that they were just SPEAKING INTO THE AIR.

In Romans 15 Paul said that the assembly was not to PLEASE one another which means to EXCITE THE SENSES because Jesus didn't PLEASE Himself. Paul then said that the only way to GLORIFY. Rather, each were to PLEASE one another to edificaton or EDUCATION.

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning (and teaching), that we through patience and comfort of the SCRIPTURES might have hope. Rom 15:4

That which was written was under the guidance of the Spirit of Christ (1 Pet 1:11; Rev 19:10)

What is there about the word SCRIPTURES which can be translated OUT OF YOUR OWN SPIRIT or out of Twila Paris' mind or EROTIC PRAISE DITTIES? I can tell you: when people refuse to LOVE THE WORD God sends strong deluders to delude you.

Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be LIKEMINDED one toward another ACCORDING to CHRIST JESUS: Rom 15:5

That ye may with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH GLORIFY God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 15:6

Wherefore RECEIVE ye ONE ANOTHER, as Christ also received us, to the glory of God. Rom 15:7

Contrary to those who teach TWO GOSPELS and TWO CHRISTS: one for "believer's baptism" the prophecy and the fulfillment is that there was only ONE GOSPEL to both Jews and Gentiles.

God in Christ is THE MINISTER of the TRUTH to the Jews and Gentiles. His WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE. In that world when you SPOKE to another or even read a Greek or Hebrew poem you were SINGING in your HEART. What is there about HEART which can be translated EXHILARATED, ENRAPTURED (RAPED) OR Enthus 'O mania?

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a MINISTER of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Rom 15:8

And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written,

For this cause I will CONFESS to thee among the Gentiles,

and sing UNTO thy NAME. Rom 15:9

Confess is the Greek:


Ecomologeo (g1843) ex-om-ol-og-eh'-o; from 1537 and 3670; to acknowledge or (by impl. of assent) AGREE FULLY: - confess, profess, promise.

Prophesying in an unspired way is to READ the Word of God so that you can be an oracle speaker for God and able to say, "Thus saith the Lord."

The Jews believed that when the WORD was lifted up on the "pulpit" that God's presence was there. Jesus agreed, BUT only to two or three gathered or SYNAGOGUED in HIS NAME. The confession that Jesus Christ CAME IN THE FLESH in 1 John seems like a public confession where we NAME whom we are gathering under. I think that WE gather in the name of the CHARISMATIC (mad) preacher and the PRAISE LEADERS who have NAMED AND CLAIMED the title of MEDIATORS.

If you listen to the misleaders they will confess that JESUS came in the flesh but not that God in Christ came in the flesh.

Only when we TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT do we CONFESS in an outward form. At the same time, we are SINGING TO THE NAME of Jehovah- Saves.

SUMMARY: the command is to SPEAK one to another which EXCLUDES a long, random harangue out of the spirit of the performance preacher.

Just what is there about ONE ANOTHER or even TO YOURSELF gives people the authority to have people with eternally questionable persona stand in what they think of as THE HOLY PLACE to PERFORM or lead performance singing of self speak: Jesus identified the Jewish clergy as SONS OF THE DEVIL because they SPEAK ON THEIR OWN.

We CAN speak the SAME THINGS but ONLY if we speak THAT WHICH HAS BEEN WRITTEN. The Psalms are a POETIC history of God's people and the EXPRESSIONS of people as they related to God. David wanted to PRAISE GOD by dashing out baby heads. The psalm is inspired because it RECORDS exactly what David wanted to do. And we need to TEACH it. However, it does not become a PROOF TEXT for bashing out baby heads or slaughtering people with a loud song (scream) and a double edged sword in our teeth. The INSTRUMENTS are defined by the same word which defines WEAPONS.

Paul told the Ephesians not to get METHUO on wine. In the Greek texts this word is not always DRUNK but "Being PIPED DOWN with the flute" in the wine drinking places. Or the word means being FLUTED DOWN WITH WINE which produces the same new WINESKINS charismatic feeling which makes meeting with JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY RABBI in small study groups or SPEAKING TO YOURSELF.

If you sing KEITH or TWILA then you are NOT singing JESUS CHRIST and Paul says that the RESULT is division and a failure to teach as in Amos and Isaiah 5. You also DELIBERATELY REPUDIATE the absolute demand to TEACH, PREACH, ADMONISH or EDIFY (Educate) one another with the WORD. The WORD is no longer the TEACHER in these mega churches (or little conservative churches any better)

I honestly believe that we have seen the Shekinah Glory RISE and depart from these "theaters for holy entertainment." And in the words of God through Amos to the musical idolatry in Israel: "I WILL NOT PASS THIS WAY AGAIN."

Paul warned you about ROBBERS: "Fools love to be fooled." The only SPIRITUAL WEAPON you have is to RETAIN the money Paul insisted that you LAY BY YOURSELF so that you have money ready when ALMS for the destitute are called for. That is what Jesus said: Money in the pocked for SECRET alms and PRAYER in the dark, quiet CLOSET which stands for your MIND or "food pantry" where you LAY UP your "treasure."

I keep hearing the MASSES worship men who GET VISIONS from a hallucinated "one of the Family of God" or TRIPLETS. Some even get a message apparently from little green men at Roswell. Or some harrangue God for a SET TIME PERIOD to guide them into doing what Jesus outlawed.

Mommas don't let your boys grow up to be cowgirls at Winterfest: The Mad Woman's Pagan festival.

Ken

Tom. Thank you so much for your input. I do appreciate your affirmation, brother. I am also thankful for your time and interest in providing a clear voice of discernment and sound reasoning at this web site. May the Spirit of truth continue to work in the hearts of men, the Father be glorified, and Christ is honored.

Chai Voraritskul
Feb. 12, 2004.

Chai,

Thank you for the lesson in understanding who is in <b>THE BODY OF CHRIST</B>. I have wondered for a long time what judgement will be like. Allow me to share some thoughts I had.

Let's take the Assembly of God and the church of Christ as our primary examples of two groups on opposite ends of the spectrum in doctrinal beliefs. What if God says to the AG at judgement, "there was really not a prayer language like you thought...you know the speaking in tongues thing." To the cofC He says, "why would you not take the counsel and comfort from My Holy Spirit and believe that He really lives in the believer? You could have received so much more than you would accept. My Word would have given you so much more insight and tolerance for My family." To both He would say, "My grace is sufficient for both of you."

My simple point is really a question. Is God's grace sufficient for those that have accepted His gift of redemption? Is the finished work on the cross and loving God and man with all our resources enough? I believe the answer will be yes as my God judges the hearts of His children not their actions.

rs

Rusty,

Based on the well-presented lesson that you learned from Chai, I have a few questions for you.

Since “the body” belongs to Christ, who is its founder, and since this “body” bears no other name but Christ’s, how do you think Christ would react in a face-to-face conversation with those men and women who have founded their own churches through the centuries? What would Christ tell those human founders? Would he congratulate them for their creativeness and for being different than the church Christ established?

Here are some passages on the Christian being indwelled:

John 14:17—that “the Spirit of truth” is in you.
Romans 8:9—that “the Spirit of God” or “the Spirit of Christ” dwells in you.
I Corinthians 3:16—“that the Spirit of God dwells in you…”
II Corinthians 6:16—“as God hath said, I will dwell in them…”
Eph. 3:17—“that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith…”
Col. 3:16—“let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom…”
II Timothy 1:14—“by the Holy Ghost which dwells in us…”
I John 4:12—“God dwells in us…”
John 14:6—Jesus is “the truth”
John 16:13—“the Spirit of truth … will guide you into all truth”
I John 5:6—“it is the Spirit that bears witness … because the Spirit is truth…”

The above passages, as in the thoughts you shared with us, do not support the AG prayer language. I also would like to share the following documented sample of this beautiful language (cf. www.piney.com):

Don Finto, charismatic and supporter of the Jubilee in Nashville asks Max Lucado to speak some tongues, and he "speka me de kooky lika tunga me gruva."

"Kalla ma sone, da fa kooka shores. It kin da la key la shone da la kene (his voice becomes hoarse and is reduced to an indistinguishable whisper). Bear fose sone ta wentta lone (voice trails off into a whisper again). Da lotta tongue de cush a wong do so coo toe. Ah shon da ba she dees ... O. Lord, your good ... Gash a la mon sewer. El ah ma she sa (more whispering). Fa kon a la ma dorman begetta see de so lawsuit...3"

Neither do the same passages support anyone’s wishes to believe or opine that there is a separate person or being out there who gently touches or sweetly whispers to someone or who directly operates or directly influences someone.

Your last paragraph stated: “My simple point is really a question. Is God's grace sufficient for those that have accepted His gift of redemption? Is the finished work on the cross and loving God and man with all our resources enough? I believe the answer will be yes as my God judges the hearts of His children not their actions.”

I’ve been hearing these phrases a lot, since I learned more about the Change Movement: “God’s grace is sufficient” … “the gift of redemption” … “finished work on the cross.” But we’ve believed all these things all the time—these are God’s part, the divine part! Hopefully, we’re not using these scriptural thoughts as excuses for disregarding the human side of the equation. The unconverted soul must still meet God’s conditions for receiving God’s grace and love and the offer of redemption in the blood of the Lamb; he must act upon the “finished work on the cross” or the “finished work” simply becomes a fact to learn. In other words, “don’t just stand there; do according to God’s PLAN of salvation. And God’s grace being “sufficient” does not warrant the Christian to abuse such grace—“work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Phil 2:12)

Donnie Cruz

Donnie, I have repeatedly pointed out to Ken that Max Lucado denies that he has ever spoken in tongues. I have repeatedly asked Ken for proof, other than just a written transcript. Obviously since your wording is so specific you must have heard the tape (which no one else has been able to produce).

Just so this question can be answered once and for all, why don't you attach a copy of this tape to this site as a WAV attachment so that EVERYONE who reads this site can know ONCE AND FOR ALL TIME whether such a tape EXISTS. I have repeatedly asked Ken to produce the tape and he ignores the question but continues to blabber the statement just as if no one knows that he has been asked to produce the PROOF.

You might be interested to know that Bro. Choate, one of the "conservative" authors of this site was present at that dinner and he has NEVER written that such speaking in tongues took place. Bro. Choate told me himself that he was introduced to Max that night, but never said anything about him speaking in tongues.

I am sure that you will want to provide the evidence to back up your statement now that it's veracity has been called into question (again).

I guess I can take a good lesson from the "conservatives" on the www.aboutpearlstreet.com website and let you know that your not producing the tape will speak a great deal about the truth of the allegation.

Tom

Tom

Would you produce the evidence that Max said that he had never spoken in tongues? Thank you very much.

I have told you that I don't have the tape. Here is the translation claimed to be authentic and from a tape. Maybe if you want the PROOF after hearing about the VISIONS I suggest you read it here and ask for a copy.

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/editorials/agents/112_08_02.htm#authority

Somewhere I have a copy of the WHITE PAPER Don Finto presented after his trip to the desert for dessert. I indeed have posted some of the telling quotations. If you remember the old Pat Boone speaking in tongues demanded that there be PRESENT PERFECT TENSE apostles. An apostle speaks in tongues and bestows the gift on others. NO APOSTLES NO TONGUES. But, again, the Greek word for CHARISMATIC means HEDONISTIC and was even then a MARK of one person who WANTED TO PLEASE a religious leader. Even then "when they fell out of love" and the LOVER no longer had the attention of the LOVEE the relationship broke and the HEDONISTIC tongues to prove the love (madness) ceased. That is still the way it is. People can speak in tongues just to be AFFIRMED by a guru. Don Finto happened to be on top of Carmel at the time.

Read the Firm Foundation material, e-mail for the tape and report back. Dobbs is a debater and he will not be caught with his tapes down. Until then I would like to know your connections to MAX LUCADO which makes you so protective as to keep calling me a liar.

Ken

Ken, several years ago when this issue when I read this article in the Firm Foundation, I thought it rather strange since I had not heard it from any other source, especially the fact that it did not come up in my conversation with Bro. Choate (years before the article came out). So I wrote to the Firm Foundation and requested a copy of the tape, including an offer to pay for the copy and postage. I never received any response.

So I did what I was brought up to do and that was to call Max Lucado. I was able to reach him by phone through the Oak Hills office. I reported to him what was being alleged and he told me that he has never spoken in tongues and that if I ever obtained a copy of this supposed event, he would love to hear it. He was very pleasant and to the point. If ANYONE has a copy of the alleged tape, I would love to hear it.

I suppose you have a certified copy of that phone conversation with Max? Could you post the conversation.

Just ask Max to stoop and address Concerned Members and we will take it all off and ask Firm Foundation to burn their tape.

One guy challenged my right to quote Heredotus unless I could PROVE that what he wrote was accurate. I might want to question Max's gnostic version that God DID NOT SEND Himself to dwell FULLY in Jesus Christ. Rather, after a contest with Lucifer God sent a VIAL OF LIGHT which entered Mary and produced Jesus. I would like a certified proof that not JUST JESUS but that CHRIST came full in the flesh meaning that he partook of the DNA of Mary.

I just read an Anglican priest remembering that he had to learn to wear what they IDENTIFIED AS A DRESS so that they would be the only priests wearing a dress. I took his word at that. You might want to verify that when David stripped off the EPHOD it was adopted from women's dress for the PRIESTHOOD.

Now, if Max NEVER spoke in tongues will that make his repudiating the NAME of CHRIST and denying everything the Bible says about baptism TRUE? Having failed to help Jubilee move music (charismatic meaning hedonistic) into the churches can he really set up a MOTHER CHURCH? I would think that speaking in tongues (a sign of madness) would be more forgivable than being part of the NEW, MASSIVE move to shepherding to PROTECT that which they have "appropriated" from being stolen back by the owners.

Nothing will change but everyone needs to know that you are trying to TAKE AWAY THE KEY to Biblical teachings by blaming the DELIBERATE SOWING OF DISCORD on the Conservatives. That is a BAD role to grasp for yourself. By the way,

"Some of the singing which seems to be often, at the conscious or mental level at least,low-level glossolalia with instrumental accompaniment." (Bruner, Fredrick, p. 300, The Holy Spirit)

MUSICA is directly connected to the magicians or exegetice. It was "speaking in tongues" and used to induce ECSTASY or a CHARISMATIC fit which in the Greek world was a "sexual" experience with whomever the charismatic speaker or singer involved.

Paul also connected instruments to the lo-tex old wineskin of the witch of Endor and speaking in tongues.

Ken

Ken and Donnie, this morning I have exchanged emails with Buster Dobbs. I will quote from his email and will forward the email to anyone who wishes to see his orginal writing. I am quoting only the portion of the email which is relevant to this discussion, and not including a couple of paragraphs about personal family contacts.

"The article you mention was an editorial and much of it was transcribed from a tape of the service. I (sic) two tapes from which the transcript in the Firm Foundation (1997) was taken. The Rusty referred to in the tape was not Max Lucado, but is not further identified (J.E. Choate thinks he was from a group called "The Kansas City Prophets). The tapes record services at the Belmont Church in Nashville (June 26, 1988), and the article makes reference to a dinner on April 22, 1997. As best I can remember, Lucado said nothing that was recorded, but was present - a silent witness. I do have the tapes, but need to get them copied for you. Since I cannot send the tapes email, you will need to give me your mailing address."

H.A. "Buster" Dobbs"

Again, if anyone would like for me to forward the original email, simply click on my name and leave your email address and request me to send it to you. I will be happy to forward the complete email to you.

Try calling Don Finto or show up with a copy of the transcript (alleged) and see if he remembers AFTER the fact.

Ken

According to the transcript, the person "speaking in tongues" is someone called Rusty.

Has it been said that Max Lucado was the one speaking in tongues?

Kevin

Kevin,

I think they were ALL “speaking in tongues” and did not understand each other.

According to the transcript, Rusty did not have a last name. Max Lucado was in the auditorium … perhaps somewhere in the auditorium, not necessarily on stage with Don Finto. But Don’s conversation was directly with Max and no one else—it seemed that way. Is it possible that Don was calling Max “Rusty”? Rusty said, “…and without the quivers going on ... (this first time I've done something like this). Ah ... but I've done it for many, many years in private, so…” [Maybe, Max was “out of practice”—and somewhat “rusty” at the time.] Then, according to “Rusty” … he referred to himself as Frank. “…So, if, uh, first of all he told me, Now, Frank, for the Lord -to receive your word-we have to be comfortable. I said, Would you make the temperature go down about five degrees in the auditorium…”

One paragraph of the article states: “The tape ends with some meaningless and worthless ‘prophecies’ by Rusty.

Strangely, Rusty Stark (in 2004) has posted a few articles on this thread, one of which is titled, “well presented Chai” dated February 12 2004, 6:55 PM. It included this paragraph:

Let's take the Assembly of God and the church of Christ as our primary examples of two groups on opposite ends of the spectrum in doctrinal beliefs. What if God says to the AG at judgement, "there was really not a prayer language like you thought...you know the speaking in tongues thing." To the cofC He says, "why would you not take the counsel and comfort from My Holy Spirit and believe that He really lives in the believer? You could have received so much more than you would accept. My Word would have given you so much more insight and tolerance for My family." To both He would say, "My grace is sufficient for both of you."

We need to ask Rusty Stark if he can help us clarify this issue regarding this “Rusty” guy in the Don Finto tape.

Donnie

Ken,

First of all, I don't have any reason to defend Max Lucado or anything he teaches.

However, you've alleged over and over that Max Lucado has "spoken in tongues."

Maybe you'd better go to the link you've posted and re-read the transcript. As Bro. Hamm has already mentioned, the "tongue-speaker" is someone named Rusty.

Estill

Max Lucado is the nearest antecedant when "rusty" is called upon to speak in tongues.

Don Finto didn't want to "embarass" Max Lucado.

"Rusty" is then asked to bring a message.

The speaker is obviously embarassed and not really a tongue speaker.

Logical but may be wrong.

Getting ready for Jubilee 97 when Max was called on to repudiate baptism, The TRINITY is Rubel Shell, Don Finto and Max Lucado as the featured speaker. You will note that he said:

The speaker of the hour, Max Lucado, in his introduction, said,

"Don Finto is my hero."

Dobbs: "So, there you have Shelly, Lucado, and Finto-birds of a feather flocking together. These men-Shelly and Lucado-are either as much of a goose as Finto, or they are laughing in their sleeves. I cannot tell which. In either case, it is inexcusable."

May just be TRAFFICKING books?

Here are some associations [Will the real Rusty please stand up]

Don Finto has founded the caleb company:

http://calebcompany.com/

You will notice that the "christian" fish is all bound up in the Star of David which has always been identified with 666. The whole TEAM is hooked on the idea that the rule of Messiah will be from LITERAL Jerusalem (known as bondage, Egypt and Sodom) rather than a spiritual rule. Some marks: music team, the dominant "priest" and the tithe to support it and the Lord's Supper as "taught by Paul" to be a SACRIFICIAL MEAL with MAKING JUBILEE where God EATS the flesh just like in paganism.

The Jubilee--first proposed by the Pope--has the singular meaning of THE ATONEMENT. Holding Jubilee repudiates the cross absolutely and the MUSIC connection often carried the idea of mocking the gods.

The Jerusalem "Jews" to whom Jesus refused to teach were not the TRUE ISRAEL but rather Kenites or Cainites. The SPIRITUAL KINGDOM will be MISSED even though the parable prophecies hide the truth. There are MARKS and STRONG DELUSIONS to fool the fools.

http://home.hiwaay.net/~contendr/4-2003.html

http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/booneLucado.htm

"Max Lucado presently enters the conversation. Lucado, with the Oak Hills church in San Antonio, is another defector from the truth. In a recent interview with The Baptist Standard, he reveals that he may eventually sever all association with churches of Christ. [DONE]

"But when King asks Lucado what he believes about TV miracle-workers, the best-selling author eratically equivocates:

“You know, I’ve struggled on and off at times with what's legitimate and what isn’t.”

..."he obviously doesn’t want to deny the possibility of modern-day miracles entirely. So he just nods his head from time to time, while clutching his latest book, grateful for King’s “plug” on its behalf."

http://www.christianity-then-and-now.com/html/review_18.html

"The book reaches its climax in chapter 16 which is entitled, Life Aboard the Fellow-Ship. With the analogy of a battleship, he describes what he perceives to be Christ's church. It is big enough to accommodate virtually any doctrine (p. 161). Paul did not understand this as does Bro. L. The apostle wrote that "ye all speak the same things and that there be no divisions among you" (I Cor. 1:10). Bro. L's boat can accommodate such interesting beliefs as "once saved always saved," predestination, premillennialism, speaking in tongues, clerical robes, etc."

If DON FINTO is MAX LUCADO'S hero and the MARK of Don Finto is charismatic then it really doesn't matter does it.

Ken

Tom,

I think you need to ask Rusty (instead of me) why he brought up in his earlier post the “prayer language like you thought...you know the speaking in tongues thing”…. I was simply responding to him with an example of a “beautiful language.” Are you going to deny Don Finto’s “charismatic” tendencies? Where is your proof that Max Lucado denies ever having spoken in tongues? It appears that Don and Max did not understand each other’s beautiful language—they both needed interpreters, didn’t they?

Tom, why do you have so much disdain for anything “conservative”?

Donnie

Donnie,

I'll try to answer what I am able. I may not be as well versed in the "new law" as you seem to be.

1) I don't look at the body belonging to Christ, I see a living organism called church with Christ as head. I don't see a body belonging to a head.

2) {{—“work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Phil 2:12)}}

Are you saying that growth in relationship with Christ is a work we do?

Do you believe that Holy Spirit has anything to do with the believer's understanding of the Word and/or ability to live a God-pleasing life?

rs

Rusty,

This was my [multi-]question for you earlier:

Since “the body” belongs to Christ, who is its founder, and since this “body” bears no other name but Christ’s, how do you think Christ would react in a face-to-face conversation with those men and women who have founded their own churches through the centuries? What would Christ tell those human founders? Would he congratulate them for their creativeness and for being different than the church Christ established?

I’m not sure if you were responding to that multi-statement question with your statement: “1) I don't look at the body belonging to Christ, I see a living organism called church with Christ as head. I don't see a body belonging to a head.”

Perhaps, the how … what … would Christ ... are difficult to provide “human answers” to without scriptural support—which all explains that we cannot make assumptions with regard to how God sees it when man innovates, invents or improves upon: (1) His plan of salvation [conversion process] and (2) His will for the church [the converted, the believers, the followers and servants of Christ].

Of course, the church is a living organism because it is comprised of the redeemed, the saints. I Corinthians 12:26,27 can attest to that; it says, “And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body OF CHRIST, and members in particular.” [KJV] Also, Ephesians 4:12 speaks of “the edifying of the body OF CHRIST.” I believe that the use of the preposition “of” indicates “belongingness” or “ownership.” If the body, the church, does not belong to Christ, to whom else should/does it belong?

Your statement, “I don’t see a body belonging to a head,” probably needs to be re-stated (differently) in light of Ephesians 5:23— “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.” [KJV] Colossians 1:18— “And he is the head of the body, the church....” [KJV]

Your question as related to working out “your own salvation with fear and trembling” in Phil. 2:12—“Are you saying that growth in relationship with Christ is a work we do?” Answer: “Growth” as in relationship with Christ, of course, implies work that we do—unless you’re content with a stagnated relationship. [I’m just wondering if you no longer believe in the all-too-familiar “faith and works” principle or command as being necessary towards “eternal salvation”? You can probably still quote scores of passages that deal with works or obedience or running with patience or enduring to the end or remaining faithful.] Without belaboring the point, let me just state that there is more to Christian living than a relationship or a growing relationship with Christ. While we are under God’s grace, we are encouraged, actually commanded, to produce good works or works of righteousness. After all, Christians should be in the race in order to receive the crown of life. Again, numerous passages support the fact that only those who endure to the end will receive and enjoy eternal life in heaven. You know that!

Your other question: “Do you believe that Holy Spirit has anything to do with the believer's understanding of the Word and/or ability to live a God-pleasing life? Even though your question may seem specific, when the subject of the Holy Spirit is brought up, the discussion can go on forever and ever. So, let me just briefly mention what I know from the Scriptures who or what is the Holy Spirit relative to the understanding of the Word. I do not consider the Holy Spirit as another “person” or being. I believe that the Catholic doctrine of “Trinity” and which is seconded by the Protestants is man-made. The word “Godhead” is scriptural and appropriate in describing the nature of God (Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20; Col. 2:9). There are many passages in the Bible that make references to the Spirit of God or the Spirit of Christ or the Spirit of Truth or simply the Spirit—all of these expressions refer to God or the mind of Christ. In essence, the Holy Spirit is God Himself and is identified as such when intervening or communicating with us, even in Old Testament times.

Having said that, I do not think of the Holy Spirit as another being who pats you on the back or touches your forehead or whispers to you. The holy Spirit of God directly intervened during the apostolic period—evidences of which were miraculous wonders and healings near and during the establishment of the church. And there are no evidences that the apostolic occurrences are present today!

[I knew it would be difficult to stop….] God the Holy Spirit has already done His part in revealing the complete truth. To question that we do not have everything in the inspired Holy Writ is to question the work of the Spirit of God. Yes, a believer can ask for better understanding of the Scriptures, but God’s Spirit is not going to change what’s already been written and inspired by the same Spirit. If a Pentecostal follower believes a certain thing one way and a Baptist believes it differently, hey, don’t blame God’s Spirit for that. And why are there so many different and opposing doctrines and beliefs when all of them claim that their beliefs are Spirit-given?

Directives and principles for Christian living are all revealed in God’s written Word. Perhaps, more than what we can handle—it seems that way. But Christ said, “my yoke is easy and burden is light”—and that’s a good promise. Is there really any reason why we need more directives? I have the gut-feeling that some “Christians” think and believe that they’re “directly influenced” by the Holy Spirit. I believe they are confused—they are confusing “direct operation by the Holy Spirit” … confusing … confusing it with what we know as “gut-feeling”—you know that “hunch” or “intuition” thing?

Donnie Cruz

Donnie,

I almost forgot to ask again for an answer to my question. Allow me to ask it again.

Is God's grace sufficient for errors that we make between accepting the gift of salvation and the final judgement? If not, at what point does God's grace stop being extended?

rs

Is God's grace sufficient for errors that we make between accepting the gift of salvation and the final judgement? If not, at what point does God's grace stop being extended?
__________________________________________

Rusty,

Is this a “new and improved” question?

In your post that was directed to Chai (”well presented Chai,” February 12 2004, 6:55 PM), you said:

My simple point is really a question. Is God's grace sufficient for those that have accepted His gift of redemption? Is the finished work on the cross and loving God and man with all our resources enough? I believe the answer will be yes as my God judges the hearts of His children not their actions.

It appears that you have already answered this question yourself. I also made a comment related to this “simple point” on February 14 2004, 7:42 AM.

Please read my post today in response to Chai: “Re: Chai's Response to Rusty” in which I briefly mentioned something related to the “sufficiency of God’s grace.” I’m also not sure as to what you mean by “errors”—are you referring to “sins” or “doctrinal errors”?

Donnie Cruz

Thank you so very much, Rusty, for your word of affirmation and encouragment.

Concerning your story of the AG and COC, God's grace is more than sufficient to cover our lack of understanding and misunderstanding on any dogma. Our salvation does not depend on our "right-ness." Without exception, we all err on some point. Thank God, salvation is in Jesus and from Jesus. He saves us by his grace. This is eternal life: "Know God. Believe in Jesus" (John 17:3). There is no need for our conservative brethren to argue with me on this point. I did not say it. Jesus did. If this creates a problem, they need to go argue with him! Repentance, confession, immersion are all expressions of belief or faith. These are work produced by faith (1Thessalonian 1:3). Thanks for the example.

Chai Voraritskul
2/16, 2004

Chai,

It is very easy to deviate from a point or points of discussion. So, let’s both try to be specific as we make comments or ask questions related to a given subject matter(s).

We know about the sufficiency of God’s grace, but can you provide scriptures stating that God’s grace also covers “our lack of understanding and misunderstanding on any dogma”? (By “any dogma,” are you speaking of the “apostles’ doctrine” and/or human creeds?) Please consider the reference made in Titus 2:11 that “the grace of God that brings salvation has been made available to all.” Since you believe that “our salvation does not depend on our ‘right-ness’ [and you’re referring to doctrines or beliefs, correct?], would you consider fellowshipping with your “COC” brothers half of the time and with your “AG brothers” the rest of the time (say, no more than half of the time)?

We also know that “He saves us by his grace.” Let’s say that you’ve just explained to the unconverted person the wonderful grace of God and the sacrifice and death of His Son for man’s redemption from sins, what would you tell the unconverted how this free redemption in the blood of the Lamb works? Let’s narrow down the options simply as follows:

(1) By faith, “accepting Christ as your personal Savior,” your spiritual “status” has been changed from sinner to Christian or believer—YOUR SINS HAVE BEEN REMITTED and YOU ARE NOW A CHILD OF GOD, born again; uh … uh … you may decide to BE BAPTIZED LATER or sometime this week or next week … because your sins have already been forgiven;

. . . OR . . .

(2) After having heard the gospel of Christ and believing and trusting in Him, there are OTHER conditions that God has explicitly specified, including being buried with Christ in baptism IN ORDER TO RECEIVE FORGIVENESS OF SINS and being risen with Him to begin NEWNESS OF LIFE (Acts 2:38; I Peter 3:21).

Now, these are two different conversion processes. One of them is right and the other is wrong—BOTH CANNOT BE RIGHT. Which one would you teach the unconverted to do?

[I have comments and questions related to the remaining part of your preceding post when you said: “Repentance, confession, immersion are all expressions of belief or faith. These are work produced by faith (1Thessalonian 1:3).” I would like to deal with these statements later on, but not now.]

Donnie Cruz

Donnie,

Is confession implied in your second choice?

rs

Rusty,

Yes, when I mentioned “other conditions.” The key point I wanted to stress was that redemption is not obtained or does not occur prior to baptism—indeed a requirement in the conversion process!

Donnie

Donnie,

Thanks for the clarification on the conversion process.

Yes, when I mentioned “other conditions.” The key point I wanted to stress was that redemption is not obtained or does not occur prior to baptism—indeed a requirement in the conversion process!

It would seem to me then that salvation is not guaranteed without the last part, remaining faithful. Why do you try to pinpoint the moment of being saved, or right relationship with God, if it doesn't really happen until later(sealed by being faithful)? Wouldn't you just consider it a process that begins with hearing the Word and ending with the final approval at some point in time? If God is judging hearts, not actions, then it would seem to me that only He knows the point of right relationship.

On another note I noticed this elsewhere:

Re: Am I missing something? (Kevin Hamm, February 16 2004, 6:18 PM) February 18 2004, 4:28 PM

We need to ask Rusty Stark if he can help us clarify this issue regarding this “Rusty” guy in the Don Finto tape.

Donnie

Were you trying to infer something here? Is there a question you have for me?

rs

Rusty posted: It would seem to me then that salvation is not guaranteed without the last part, remaining faithful. Why do you try to pinpoint the moment of being saved, or right relationship with God, if it doesn't really happen until later(sealed by being faithful)? Wouldn't you just consider it a process that begins with hearing the Word and ending with the final approval at some point in time? If God is judging hearts, not actions, then it would seem to me that only He knows the point of right relationship.

Rusty, I’m sure you’re familiar with God’s directive to “remain faithful”—in fact, you’ve mentioned it a number of times. But don’t you agree that God is speaking here to Christians and not to the unconverted? The point is that there needs to be a line drawn or distinction made between the status of the unconverted (the sinner) and the status of the converted (the Christian). The individual is either “in Christ” or “outside of Christ.”

The conversion process culminating in baptism is for the “remission of sins that are past.” Here’s the passage: Romans 3:25—“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.” [KJV]

So, there must be a starting point from which Christian living begins—remember the phrase “newness of life”? The Scripture “pinpoint[s] the moment of being saved” from past sinful life by immersion or being buried with Christ.

The Christian is responsible for maintaining that right relationship with God. His life must be a life of service and obedience. After all, the Christian is not only a believer, but he is also a follower and servant of Christ. Thus, running the race with patience, working out your own salvation with fear and trembling, enduring to the end—all these directives apply to the Christian. There are scores of passages that support the truth that the Christian must “remain faithful” to the end. What will God’s judgment be like?

Romans 2—“[5] … against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; [6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds: [7] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.” [KJV]

Yes, the faithful, enduring Christian in the end will [FUTURE] receive the crown of life, enjoy eternal life in heaven.

Donnie

P.S.:

Donnie: “We need to ask Rusty Stark if he can help us clarify this issue regarding this “Rusty” guy in the Don Finto tape.”

Rusty: “Were you trying to infer something here? Is there a question you have for me?”

Donnie: “Rusty, were you this fellow speaking this “beautiful language” to [___] in the auditorium with Don and Max years ago? Laugh! LOL … Just joking! Seriously, I have a question I wish to ask you. Here’s my e-mail address in case you care to know: donniecruz@msn.com. If not, that’s fine. Thanks!

Donnie, your questions: {Chai, we know about the sufficiency of God’s grace, but can you provide scriptures stating that God’s grace also covers “our lack of understanding and misunderstanding on any dogma”? (By “any dogma,” are you speaking of the “apostles’ doctrine” and/or human creeds?) Please consider the reference made in Titus 2:11 that “the grace of God that brings salvation has been made available to all.”}

My answer to you: Consider 1John 3:11f for a start: “This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. [This is “apostles doctrine.” What part of this teaching we don’t understand? Do we understand this teaching? Yes? Do we practice it? If you say we do, you either lie or live in denial. Why do we see so many brothers trying to defend their doctrines by making slanderous remarks so freely on this web site? Forget about the issues concerning instrumental music, holy entertainment, right church, right name, right stuff, direct operation of the Holy Spirit, elders and deacons, women’s role in the church, or fellowship with other believers who differ with us. There are brothers who do not understand or misunderstand the dogma of Christ. You and I are included, Donnie. We must not be so high-minded to believe that we are right and everybody else on the other side of the issues is wrong. According to your own perspective, both cannot be right. Wrong. The right questions are: “Can both be acceptable to God?” Even if you are wrong, is God’s grace sufficient for you? Think about it, brother. You will need it before you appear before his presence.] Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous.” [This passage says nothing about character assassination, or slandering, right?]

“Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him” (1John 3: 13-15). There are countless brothers in Christ who are not members of the Church of Christ. Church of Christ is not identical with the church of Christ, unless “brain washing” was total and complete. Anyone who does not love [his brothers in Christ] remains in death! Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and YOU KNOW that no murderer has eternal life in him. And this is a direct rebuke to everyone who reads this message who is guilty of hate, slander, character assassination, and willful blanket refusal to accept other brothers in the Lord. Think not that any one of us can continue our lawless act with impunity. We are not bastards, pardon my King James language, but true sons (Hebrews 12: 8). God will discipline us if we persist in our hate and disobedience.

“Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1John 3:18-20). Even when we are wrong, and our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. His grace is sufficient to cover our sins. This is why our salvation does not depend on our “right-ness.” Read Romans 14 and 15. Jews and Gentile Christians of the church in Rome had issues concerning food, drink, and keeping of the Sabbath days. Who was right? Who was wrong? What did the Spirit say through Paul?

The churches in America in 2004 debate the issues concerning fellowship, instruments in worship, women’s role in the church, direct operation of the Spirit, how and when is a person saved, and many other topics. The fact that Godly men of known integrity and sound judgment among believers of Jesus Christ find themselves on the opposite side of an issue ought to tell us that that issue is a DISPUTABLE MATTER. Again, as I have said before, let me say it again. Logically and legalistically speaking, both positions of a disputable matter cannot be both right. Only one is right, and the other is wrong. In God’s economy, however, the question is neither which is right and which is wrong, but rather, which is acceptable and which is not. And by God’s grace, concerning all disputable matters, both are acceptable, and we must accept and receive one another. Until we learn this truth, we don’t understand God’s love, God’s grace, and the freedom God has bestowed upon his children, freeing them from the law, sin, fear, and condemnation. We say we do understand. Our deeds say we don’t. We lie, but even in such a situation, God’s grace is still sufficient, or we will go straight to hell, Donnie.

{Since you believe that “our salvation does not depend on our ‘right-ness’ [and you’re referring to doctrines or beliefs, correct?], would you consider fellowshipping with your “COC” brothers half of the time and with your “AG brothers” the rest of the time (say, no more than half of the time)?} Correct. I will consider fellowshipping any believer of Jesus Christ without any shame, hesitation, or reservation. If there is something he needs, and it is mine to give, I will do so gladly. Be it material things or things of the Spirit. We are fishers of men. When the Lord brings a fish regardless of church affiliation, COC, JHW, or AG, and prompts me to clean it, and since he has already taught me how, I will. I don’t care if I smell fishy to you, or anyone, Donnie. One thing I know: You cannot clean a fish before it is caught. Don’t even try. You must have the fish in the net first. Furthermore, some fish will be thrown back into the sea and be rejected by the Lord. A few of these fish will be from the Church of Christ as well as other churches.

{We also know that “He saves us by his grace.” Let’s say that you’ve just explained to the unconverted person the wonderful grace of God and the sacrifice and death of His Son for man’s redemption from sins, what would you tell the unconverted how this free redemption in the blood of the Lamb works? Let’s narrow down the options simply as follows:

(1) By faith, “accepting Christ as your personal Savior,” your spiritual “status” has been changed from sinner to Christian or believer—YOUR SINS HAVE BEEN REMITTED and YOU ARE NOW A CHILD OF GOD, born again; uh … uh … you may decide to BE BAPTIZED LATER or sometime this week or next week … because your sins have already been forgiven; . . . OR . . .

(2) After having heard the gospel of Christ and believing and trusting in Him, there are OTHER conditions that God has explicitly specified, including being buried with Christ in baptism IN ORDER TO RECEIVE FORGIVENESS OF SINS and being risen with Him to begin NEWNESS OF LIFE (Acts 2:38; I Peter 3:21).

Now, these are two different conversion processes. One of them is right and the other is wrong—BOTH CANNOT BE RIGHT. Which one would you teach the unconverted to do?}

Donnie, I have personally baptized over a hundred people in my lifetime. I can tell you what I did in some cases. I just baptized a college student in January. He was a Buddhist. He first visited RHCC in December 2003. A member of RHCC for many years invited him. I met him in the lobby of the church. In the course of conversation, I asked him if he wanted to know more about this church and Christianity. He said, “yes,” and thanked me for showing an interest in him, a stranger to our church. We met at the church building at 8 a.m. on several Sunday mornings for an hour of Bible study. I asked him to read the book of John for his homework. He did. He was excited about what he had read for the first time in his life! I pointed out to him who Jesus is, what he said, what he did, why did he come to earth, what must we do to have eternal life. He was very receptive.

Then I asked him to read the book of Acts for his homework. He did. I went over the commands of Jesus to his apostles, and I showed him several examples of conversion recorded in that book. We went through Romans 6 and other passages on baptism. I asked him if he believes that Jesus is God who came in human body to save mankind from sin. He said yes. Does he want follow him? He said yes.

He also told me that he did not get enough sleep some time. Sunday at 8 a.m. was very early for him. He often got together with his friends on Saturday nights and had a good time till the wee hours in the morning. I told him I understand. “Been there; done that too.” I explained to him what freedom in Christ would mean to him and what the Bible says about sexual relationships. We went over 1 Corinthians 6:12-20; Ephesians 5:22-33. He said he did all the wrong things the Bible says not to do. I told him the Spirit of God will empower him to do what is right, and this is how we can know when the Spirit is at work or not at work in one’s life. We read Galatians 5:13-26. He said that the acts of every sinful nature described in verses 19-21 also describe his current life. I told him this gospel that he is receiving is not just simply empty words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit, and with deep conviction (1Thessalonians 1:4-6). He should find other mature Christians at RHCC and imitate them. We will help him and show him how to live the abundant life in Christ. He will see the changes in his own life soon after his baptism. At baptism, he will receive two things, namely, the Spirit of Christ, and forgiveness of sin.

I asked him if he still wanted to be baptized. He said yes. How about today? He said he did not bring anything to change. We have clothing for baptism. None of his will get wet. He said OK. He had seen a few people baptized already during the past several weeks. But later, he said, “It would be a good idea for my mother to witness my baptism too. Why don’t we wait until next week instead. I will tell her of my decision and bring her next week.” I agreed. The following week, he came with his best friend, but his mother did not come. He went ahead with his baptism. I took his confession and immersed him in the water in the name of the Father, the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. He is now attending the college age Bible class and makes new friends who will help him walk with the Lord. I see him about every week.

Do I care at what moment he was saved? At the point of believing long before his body touched the water, the minute his body touched the water, when he was totally submerged under water, after he walked up from the water, two hours after his getting out of the water? No I don’t care. My theology or your theology has nothing to do with his salvation, a free gift from the Lord.

He believed in Jesus. At what point did he start believing? I don’t know. He was ready to be baptized, but decided to postpone it for a week, so he could inform his mother, and she could witness his immersion into Christ, if she wanted to. Do I have problem with that? Not at all. Jesus wanted everyone to count the cost carefully. Jesus gives everyone enough time to make this important decision. The Father is at work. I am his worker. Why should anyone have any problem waiting?

I know of three other teenagers. They are children of a friend who attends RHCC. I know the family well. I talked to them about their baptisms. They all wanted to, but they want to wait for their father to come back from Thailand in March. They have not seen him for many years, and they want him to baptize them. They could have been baptized many moons ago. Should anyone have a problem with that? Don’t tell me. Tell it to the Lord. I don’t make that decision for anyone. I am fully aware of the jailer in Philippi who was baptized at midnight by Paul in Acts 16:16-34. He did not even wait until daylight to be baptized. Most of the conversions I have been involved in were not that dramatic. There was no earthquake around us. At what point is a person is saved? When he believes (John 3:16ff, 17:3; Romans 3:27-31, 4:1-25)? When he confesses Jesus as Lord (Romans 10:6-13)? When he is baptized (Mark 16:15ff, Acts 2:38)? My answer is: “Yes.” What is yours, Donnie?

From my personal experience, I have never seen anyone die before baptism. But I have seen people die again spiritually as well as physically soon after their baptisms. Some were baptized prematurely, or with wrong motives. Concerning your two cases, it appears to you that they could not be both right. True, legalistically, as I have explained earlier. I believe both are acceptable to the Lord. He is gracious. We do whatever we think is best. Frankly, neither one of us cares what other might think. I do care what the Lord thinks. I know what he thinks about my life and actions, most of the time. We have a two-way communication line established. He knows how to ring my bell. He tells me when I am offside or out of bounds when my conscience fails. He communicates with my spirit. It is nonverbal. You don’t have any bell. You don’t want any bell. That is your choice. Pitiful choice! Elaborate chandelier. No juice!

Chai Voraritskul
Feb. 18, 2004.

Chai,

Thank you for the testimony as your answer. It is so much more meaningful to witness God at work, instead of wondering "what if" about God's relationship with His creation. I agree that it matters not at what point God chooses to accept one's decision to accept His free gift. Our job is but to be patient, prepared and willing to work in the vineyard. God truly has only one concern that I am aware of...souls.

{"We have a two-way communication line established. He knows how to ring my bell. He tells me when I am offside or out of bounds when my conscience fails. He communicates with my spirit. It is nonverbal. <b>You don’t have any bell. You don’t want any bell. That is your choice. Pitiful choice! Elaborate chandelier. No juice!</b>"}

What a sad state in which to exist.


rs

Chai,

Thank you for your response—I have just now finished reading it. Hmmm!

IMO, the reference you provided, I John 3:11-18 which begins with “…we should love one another” and then … loving not “with words or tongue but with actions and in truth,” did not explain the sufficiency of God’s grace that you claim covers “our lack of understanding and misunderstanding on any dogma.” And your solution to disputable matters is always “we must accept and receive one another.” Are there disputable matters between you and the Buddhists, or between you and the Mormons or the Adventists or the Christian Scientists? Yes? No? I see—that explains why you do accept and receive them and have fellowship with them—or, don’t you? Well, let’s move on.

I may not have clearly stated this question to you: “Since you believe that our salvation does not depend on our ‘right-ness’ … would you consider fellowshipping with your “COC” brothers half of the time and with your “AG brothers” the rest of the time (say, no more than half of the time)?”

So, let me somewhat rephrase it this way: “Since doctrine does not matter to you, would you be willing to spend half of your time worshipping and ministering with your neighboring Assembly of God brethren and spend half of your time worshipping and ministering with your ‘COC’ brethren?”

You made this comment in your last post: “A few of these fish will be from the Church of Christ as well as other churches.” This statement reminds me exactly of what the change agents are busily doing in the church. They should be doing their fishing out there in the community and bringing the lost to Christ. Besides, you continually make references to Christ’s church as another denomination [please don’t bother to explain the lower case or upper case “C”]. But wait! We’re talking about some of those who are outside of Christ and who attend “your COC” assembly, correct?

Finally, you did not respond to my choice question earlier when I said that two differing conversion processes cannot be both right. You gave me illustrations and examples of baptism experiences and your opinion that “both are acceptable to the Lord.” Chai, the Scripture clearly teaches what one must do to be saved. There is a difference between: (1) being “buried with Christ” in order to obtain redemption and (2) being saved first by “accepting Christ by faith” only and then being baptized later to become a Baptist member.

[I must end this discourse—I realize that the average attention span of the reader does not go beyond two or three short paragraphs.]

Donnie

ATTEMPTS TO JUSTIFY PROMISE KEEPERS

Terry Joe Kee


Rape the bride of Christ. Beat her and leave her for dead. Ridicule, laugh and scoff at the church of Christ, the Lord's church. However, do not ever say anything about "Christian" academies, colleges, day cares, or any organization operated by brethren. Some brethren who are so non-combative and passive when attacks are made against the body of Christ will fight, battle and die for their schools, day cares, counseling services, etc. Write what you will in Seek The Old Paths about the church, but do not dare attack sin in our pet institutions. In our past, such ire was raised only when one of "our" institutions was being questioned, but times have changed. The latest "sacred cow" to rear its head among us is the ecumenical movement called "Promise Keepers."

It is surprising that those who will not defend the church against her assailants, are now writing and trying to justify their support of "Promise Keepers." Since a Promise Keeper's rally was held in our city (Jonesboro, Arkansas), preachers and elders who sponsored and supported this event have been trying to defend their actions. Sadly some brethren have their consciences soothed whenever an elder or preacher quotes scripture and says here is our authority. This is commonly followed by a jab at those "weak" brethren who have not gained such knowledge and do not understand these wonderful Bible principles they have so eloquently spelled out.

It simply is not possible to notice all the arguments they make to justify supporting and being "card carrying" members of Promise Keepers. Many of the arguments have been made over and over through the years by liberals trying to mask their liberalism. An elder in a Northeast Arkansas church wrote a letter defending the supporters of Promise Keepers. His letter to churches in this area who opposed this fellowship argued we were judging and condemned by Matthew 7:1. Never mind that his letter was a judgment against brethren! He had not read, or chose to disregard, Matthew 7:15 where Jesus commands to judge if wolves are among us in sheep's clothing.

The elders who sponsored the Promise Keepers meeting said in their defense,

"You will be happy to know that during that rally our Master's name was praised; religious division was condemned; men were encouraged to be faithful to their families and God; and non-believers that were present were encouraged to turn toward Jesus."

This is the old argument, "but there is some good in it." To say there was "some good" is an open admission there was some sin. This is an attempt to focus one's attention on some presumed good and get them to ignore the sin. Eve saw some good in the forbidden fruit and Uzzah saw some good in reaching forth his hand to steady the ark, but that good was not cause to ignore the sinfulness of their actions. Should this cause us to be happy? Surely, joy and happiness comes when our Master is praised and God is glorified, but this is only done in the church (Eph. 3:21). Who do they argue was magnifying the Master, condemning division, etc.? These were denominational preachers, not Christians. Denominationalism does not magnify the Master. It calls for pseudo-unity where all agree to disagree. Surely it is admirable to call for men to be better husbands and fathers, but do the faithful need to be instructed by the apostate, lost and sectarian? What happiness is brought when men are encouraged to turn toward Jesus by faith only? Should we rejoice that Calvinism is being preached? Even though an attempt is made to portray some good, there was none present!

The fellowship that many now seek and enjoy with denominationalism has been coming for years. Some elderships and preachers have been traveling this way for a long time. They began by bringing James Dobson, the American Family Association, and other denominational efforts into our assemblies by use of audio and video tape. No one was to say anything because they were not bringing in the denominational preachers, just their materials. After conditioning brethren with such denominational series, they now bring in the denominational preachers under the guise of praising the Master, condemning division, remembering family, and encouraging men to turn toward Jesus. Then whenever someone rises up in opposition to these sinful associations, they are accused of not wanting the Master praised, division condemned, etc. How can their own brethren condemn or question them when they have allowed these same ones into their midst by means of their denominational materials for years? The next step is to admit they are nothing more than a denomination themselves and to join with them fully. These seeds are already being planted by those who refer to restoration history as our beginning and our roots. If the church of Christ began with Campbell, Stone, etc. we are nothing more than a denomination! Not one faithful soul believes the church began anywhere except in Acts 2.

Those who have supported the Promise Keepers movement argue from ignorance. They say they did not know these things were going to be done. However, their own bulletin advertised it by saying,

"In 1990 God gave Dave Wardell and Coach Bill McArtney a vision to see men become godly influences in their homes, churches, communities and the world. Come hear how it all started and join with men from all denominations and races in seeking God to continue that vision in our community."

One of their staff members wrote in their bulletin,

"Promise Keepers is an interdenominational Christian organization begun a few years ago to encourage men to turn their hearts toward their wives and children, to reconcile broken promises, and unite with fellow brothers in Christ, so that God may be glorified."

The local newspaper quoted Louis Monroe, the Arkansas/Missouri director of Promise Keepers, six days before the local rally was held, saying a man is

"able to receive the word for the very first time because he don't have to wear the mask anymore. Before he knows it, the Holy Spirit has him worshipping God as he's always wanted to. Coming to honor God -- that's what it's all about."

How can anyone plead ignorance when they say these men have received a vision from God; are an interdenominational Christian organization inviting us to join with fellow brothers in Christ; and can have the Holy Spirit working on us before we know it? Are these so ignorant they do not know God does not reveal himself in visions today? Are they so ignorant they believe we are a denomination and those in denominationalism are our brothers? Are they so ignorant they do not know how the Holy Spirit works in conviction and conversion? If they are so willingly ignorant, they are no better than the world of Noah's day or the Jews of Hosea's day who were destroyed because of a lack of knowledge (2 Peter 3:1- 12; Hosea 4:6).

If you still cannot see churches selling themselves out to denominationalism, listen to the local preacher, as he is quoted in the Arkansas Times, a newspaper out of Little Rock, saying,

"Yes we are trying to be faithful and be the New Testament church, but we don't see ourselves as the only Christians -- and they probably do."

"They" refers to churches in this area who opposed their sponsoring a Promise Keepers rally. And yes, we do believe you must be a member of the body of Christ, the church of Christ, to be a Christian. No, we do not believe there are Christians outside the body of Christ.

There is an effort to try to justify their actions by appealing to the scriptures. There are several passages which have been used by brethren trying to justify using denominational preachers in these Promise Keepers meetings. A local elder argues,

"Look at I Cor. 14:25. What does Paul view as happening? An unbeliever falls face down and begins to talk right out loud in church. Suppose something like that happened today -- how would you react? How do you suppose other congregations would react to the church where that happened? Do we really know as much as we think we do about the first century church? Are not a lot of things upon which we pass harsh judgments actually an effort to keep an older image of the twentieth century church rather than be like the first century church?"

Is this parallel to inviting denominational preachers into our pulpits to preach? Did this man in Corinth stand up and ridicule and laugh at the church for not using instrumental music? Please notice the context of this passage. "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth" (I Cor. 14:23-25). Paul is showing the superiority of prophesy over speaking in tongues. The confusion in an assembly where all were speaking in tongues would not be conducive to one's seeing salvation in Christ. Such a confused assembly would make an unbeliever think the church at Corinth was "mad" (mainesthe), raving maniacs. However, an unbeliever who would come into the assembly and hear the gospel spoken plainly in an orderly assembly, would be convicted of his sin, judged by the gospel, and have the secrets of his heart laid bare. The result would be to have him fall down and worship God with the full understanding that this is the truth. Is this parallel to an unbeliever coming into an assembly of the church where a Promise Keepers meeting is held? Here he hears denominational preachers mocking the church of Christ for not using mechanical instruments of music in worship and laughing at the idea of the oneness of the church. Then he hears a plea for us to all be alike, yet different at the same time -- unity in diversity. Will he think us raving maniacs or will he be convicted and judged to rise up and declare "that God is in you of a truth?" There is simply no parallel.

Then an elder says

"Look at Acts 21:20-26. Let it sink in. Paul is participating in a traditional religious ceremony in the worship building of another religion."

This is not parallel to denominationalism. Some have argued in this passage that Paul sinned. The apostle was not above sin, but the context does not seem to indicate that he sinned. Remember that truth was being revealed in part. Paul told the Corinthians, "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part" (I Cor. 13:9). Not all revelation was given at one time. The books of Galatians, Colossians, and Hebrews had not been written at this time. At what time did a total severing of all Jewish ties begin? Remember that the law had a purpose. It was not perfect in that it could not offer remission of sins by the blood of bulls and goats, but it was perfect in its purpose. It prepared a people for the coming kingdom. Please also notice that Paul was being accused of "saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs" (Acts 21:21). Whatever Paul is doing must be done to relieve the minds of the Jews in these areas. Circumcision began with Abraham (Gen. 17). It was a seal of God's covenant with Abraham and his descendants. Paul did not bind or loose circumcision. He had Timothy circumcised in order to help reach the Jews (Acts 16:3), but he refused to have Titus, a Gentile, circumcised even when compelled (Titus 2:3). Customs were not a part of the law. This passage deals with their habits, customs, and traditions. Paul was being falsely charged. Whatever is happening in Acts 21 does not parallel nor give comfort to those desiring to fellowship the denominations. Rather than a difficult passage, one should remember that it is the sum of God's word that reveals truth, not one passage, but the whole. Why not read some plain passages like Ephesians 5:11, "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." Or, maybe 2 John 9-11, "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." Some do not want to be reminded of those plain passages which condemn their actions.

The Promise Keepers supporters use I Corinthians 9:19-23. Paul said, "For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you." Paul is not teaching the pragmatic philosophy that the end justifies the means. Paul had the right to expect financial support from those he taught. Yet, he did not exercise this right lest his motives for preaching should be questioned. To afford known false teachers an audience in order that you might be afforded the same opportunity in their assemblies is not justified by this passage.


PHILIPPIANS 1:15-18

Finally, there are two passages which have been used over and over to justify sponsoring, supporting, being members, and encouraging the Promise Keepers movements among churches of Christ. Paul's words in Philippians 1:15-18 read, "Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice." Denominations do not preach Christ. To preach Christ is not simply to call out the name of Christ -- it is the preaching of the gospel of Christ. Paul was not commending some pseudo-gospel. He condemned such in Galatians 1:6-12. The doctrine which was being taught here was the pure doctrine of Christ. Their motive for preaching it is what grieved Paul. Some with envy, strife and contention were preaching Christ. Others preached Christ out of good will and sincerity. Paul was more concerned with the gospel being preached than in petty jealousies and envyings. Paul's bonds and sufferings did not keep him from desiring to have the gospel preached. If the Baptists, Methodists and Pentecostals were preaching Christ, they would not be Baptists, Methodists, and Pentecostals. Neither their doctrine nor their motive is commended or condoned by this passage.


MARK 9:38-41

The "sugar stick" passage of all the defenders of Promise Keepers and the use and fellowship of denominational preachers is Mark 9:38-41. Mark's record reads, "And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward."

No one could have cast out demons without God working with him (cf. John 3:1,2; John 9:31). John admitted that this man was casting out demons "in thy name." This expression has always meant, according to or by His authority. The seventy had been sent out with the power to cast out demons (Luke 10:17). These had been given power and authority by Christ. Not being numbered among the twelve did not mean they did not have authority. Jesus said they could not do the miracles without doing them in His name. This did not mean they were a division of followers who taught contrary doctrines and wore sectarian names. There is not one denomination that exists by the authority of Christ! One is not doing anything in the name of Christ except he is doing it according to the will of Christ. Again, this passage does not offer any comfort to the liberals who try to justify their use of these false teachers.

Let us resolve to adorn the beautiful bride of Christ. Let us keep her spotless and blameless. We have waged the war and won against the denominations in years past. We have waged the war and won against our own brethren who desire to carry the church into apostasy. Now Satan, in league with denominationalism and some of our own brethren, is rising up in battle against the bride of Christ again. As before, let us put on the whole armor of Christ stand fast in the defense of the gospel.

_________________________________
1109 Craighead Forest Road
Jonesboro, AK 72404
“Seek The Old Paths,” Vol. 8, No. 1

There is no question that “denominationalism does not magnify the Master.” Neither does inter-denominationalism. It was Christ’s purpose to establish or found the church which bears his name only and which belongs to him only.

It’s clearly admitted by its proponents and organizers that "Promise Keepers is an interdenominational Christian organization” and that “it calls for pseudo-unity where all agree to disagree.” This “ecumenical movement” is indeed a “sacred cow” in our midst.

This is a remarkable statement by the author: “If the Baptists, Methodists and Pentecostals were preaching Christ, they would not be Baptists, Methodists, and Pentecostals.” What the denominational world considers an attempt at “unity in the body of Christ” is very laughable from scriptural perspectives. For one thing, there is a clear admission that there is division or disunity in the first place [and I have not the slightest idea wherewith to begin enumerating countless differences between two groups A and B, between D and X, between A and Z and AMONG all the groups]. Secondly, unity in this instance is simply not achievable.

When Pentecostals return home from this “wonderful” experience, they will still be Pentecostals—their charismatic aberration is not going to change. Many of them will still resort to speaking this “beautiful heavenly language,” e.g., "Kalla ma sone, da fa kooka shores. It kin da la key la shone da la kene….” The Baptists return home still convinced that “by accepting Jesus as one’s personal Savior by faith only, the unconverted is redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and automatically becomes a Christian and then decide [or not decide] when to be baptized afterwards. Baptism is only one of the issues [and the list is quite exhaustive] that “Promise Keepers” lovers will argue to no end that any form of it really does not matter.

I would like to refer the reader to a couple of Mark Waggoner’s posts of late (by scrolling up a few pages). Without the confusing dialogue between “what you said” and “what I said” … and without the benefit of color-coded responses between two opposing arguments, Mark has clearly presented in narrative format what the following self-descriptive topics are trying to convey:

____________________________
“Disputable Matters - Summary Comments” (posted by Mark Waggoner, February 13 2004, 4:55 PM)
“Fellowship - Concluding Remarks” (posted by Mark Waggoner, February 15 2004, 4:04 PM)
____________________________
Donnie Cruz

Donnie, have you or any of the other PK bashers EVER been to a PK event? I am guessing......NO! And don't say that you don't have to go to know what went on...that is also a LAME excuse.

If you have never been then SHUT UP! You have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

PK has been instrumental in bringing MANY to the cross of Christ...but I am sure you think that the CROSS I am talking about is a FAKE one. How SAD!

I am sure you will find some other lame excuse not to go and see the PASSION OF THE CHRIST because it was made by and PAID for by a Catholic believer. How SAD!

You and your kind wallow in "Whoa is me" so much that it is sickening. You print hate speech against other Christians on this website while omitting any criticism against what you THINK is right.

You and your kind are a sad, sad lot. Christ preached against your kind, the Pharasees, and it wasn't good. You are white washed tombs...I think he said.

Nuff said.

JD

JD,

I know it’s very easy for you to say that anyone who opposes certain beliefs and teachings of the change agents is being Pharisaical. But it’s coming from someone who evidently thinks any change agent who is against any “Pharisee” (by your standard) is Christ.

If I were to go to a PK event, I’m sure I’d be coming home with voluminous “testimonies of experiences” to report. Would you then read my report? That I will not “go and see the PASSION OF THE CHRIST”—did you mean that seriously?

JD, I would SHUT UP [and there would be no reason for Concerned Members to alarm congregations any longer], if the change agents would stop infiltrating, diverting and acquiring churches.

You said, “You print hate speech against other Christians [did you mean “against apostates”?] on this website while omitting any criticism against what you THINK is right.” Well, then, can you give me a list of things I THINK are right, but are not right? Let’s discuss them. Be my guest.

Donnie

I'm a little un-clear as to the question about the movie.
So here goes; Donnie, are you going to see the movie?

I’m sure I am going to see the movie … just don’t know when.

Apollo or Abaddon or Apollyon "worship" with the MUSES or end-time "locusts" carries the idea of PHOBUS or fear. ALL "relious rituals" are based on the LUCIFER principle of inducing sleep and fear which is MORE LITERAL than most are able to see. Here is a testimonial:

"My family and I just returned from Cosmic Christmas at a Baptist Church in Grandbury. I thank you for your insights on Christ being here before the world was.

"I went right to my bible when we returned home and read my daughter the book of John.

"I wanted her to be sure and know that was someones imagination not the real story.

"Max Lucado I hope is being aproached by christians who are telling him of the line he is walking.

"I don't know where to begin with what made the COSMIC CHRISTMAS disturbing. I was mostly concerned for the young eyes who may believe this to be true.

"I wished they weren't even there.

"It was like your article, Jesus was a light around Gods neck and the angel Gaberial had to get it past Satan to earth.

"I had heard about it through KVTT 91.7 radio. I listen to Tom Dooley in the morning. It's playing again at the Pantigo Bible Church of Arlington. You may have to call the radio station to find out for sure.

"My daughter was frightened of the demons. They surrounded a CART Mary was in on the way to Bethelem. I don't know what happened to her and Josephs' donkey. There was a BATTLE with the angles there, If I'd known what it was like before, if someone would have seen it first I wouldn't have gone.

"Max Lucado Is scary to me now. Sorry to take up so much time.

"You read the book of Job chapter 37&38.

"You are correct in saying in the show that part of God offering his hand to Satan, was by far the most scary part.

"It totally pulled your insides because you felt it questioning our Father. That was a part where my daughter had her head burried under my arm, and I should have known to leave then. They say what if there was a battle in heaven, I say who are we to question or change Gods word. I love the book of Job. Actually I love the words of the bible whole heartedly.

"I wonder why when you go to church, they don't read longer passages to let Gods word speak for itself. You may use anything I've told you but yes I'd like you to leave my name off Thank you."

The word LOVE points directly to the erotic love of the GODDESS OF LOVE. However, the goddess of love was like a female black widow! This is the RELIGIOUS fear which Jesus died to REMOVE along with the fear-inducers.

Max can exist only by FICTIONALIZING the Bible. And "drama works because we know that it is a lie." The word MUSICA includes the EXEGETS or further expounder. Peter OUTLAWED private interpretation of "further expounding for several reasons:

First, God in Christ (not just a vial of light which had to be dosed into Mary like a cosmic football game) was FULL DEITY. Jesus the man spoke only what He heard from the father within.

Second, Jesus picked ONLY TWELVE to deliver the Word which had been validated by supernatural signs:

Luke 10:1 AND when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Third: The apostles had performed miracles as SIGNS of their authority.

Fifth: Both Peter and Paul warn that if you don't "teach the word as it has been taught" then you are a FALSE APOSTLE.

Conclusion: Teaching the word without EXEGETING or DRAMATIZING or making a MUSICAL out of it is the ONLY MARK by which ANYONE can identify a FALSE TEACHER and the enemy of the WORD. When people hear the "spirit person" or get VISIONS to violat the WORD then this is God sending STRONG DELUSIONS to FOOL THE FOOLS in Paul's imagery.

GUILT BY ASSOCIATION adheres to those strangly- attracted to those FICTIONALIZING the life of Christ by ADDING filler easily found in much of the older GNOSTIC literature (sure: get idea, get books, fictionalize it, test each word for POWER).

Denying that CHRIST (Who WAS full Deity) came in the FLESH is the mark of anti-Christ. Sure, they will say that JESUS came in the flesh but not FULL DEITY.

Ken Sublett

Source: Examining the Scriptures (Online): Q&A—Promise Keepers
________________________________


The Promise Keepers & Holy Laughter

Paul Smithson


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QUESTION:

"We have recently left our church over the Promise Keepers and the so-called laughter movement...I would appreciate your input on these subjects. We have been labeled trouble makers by fellow believers who seem to lack discernment."

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ANSWER:

Dear Mr. & Mrs. ----------------,

You will do well to stay clear of the Promise Keepers and those teaching such false doctrine as "holy laughter".

The Promise Keepers are very denominational and teach false doctrine. Here are just a few of the problems of the Promise Keepers:

• Promise Keepers are not striving to simply be Christ's church. Christ established one church---His church (Matt. 16:18), and He prayed for unity (Jno. 17:20-21). Paul pleaded for unity (1 Cor. 1:10). Furthermore, we are told that "There is one body..." (Eph. 4:4) and "...but one body." (1Cor. 12:20). That "one body" is the church (Eph. 1:22-23; Col.1:18). Reconciliation to God is found in that one body (Eph.2:16). One becomes a member of His church simply by obedience to His gospel just as those in the first century (Acts 2:38-47).
  
  
• The Promise Keepers leave the impression that there are many faiths that make up the church. However, the Bible teaches that there is "one faith" (Eph. 4:5). They teach there is to be universal unity, but their unity is based upon accepting any belief. Yet, they themselves shun those who point out their Scriptural error saying they do not have discernment? There can not be unity in diversity of faiths (denominationalism)-Christ prayed for unity (Jno. 17).
  
  
• Promise Keepers believe in a direct operation of the Holy Spirit on the heart of a sinner, and that He personally indwells believers, thus enabling them to live a godly life. The Holy Spirit works through the word of God, "the sword of the Spirit" (Eph. 6:17). Faith is produced by the word of God (Rom 10:17), and not by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit.
  
  
• Promise Keepers teach salvation by "faith alone" but the Bible says "...not by faith only" (Jas. 2:24).
  
  
• They have their own statement of faith (creed). Christ should be our creed and the Scriptures our only guide.

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Concerning Holy Laughter:

Toronto Airport Vineyard denomination claims to have received outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Many people from several denominations have gone to Toronto to "get the Spirit" and take it back home. This supposed outpouring has been accompanied by people being "slain", "drunk in the Spirit," with laughing, growling, barking, and other manifestations.

Examples from them—“We came to our first meeting February 1st. I had absolutely no frame of reference for seeing and understanding what was going on up front. The trouble was, it's one thing to sit in the meeting and observe, it's another thing to take it home. And for whatever reason my wife was as drunk as a newt. John, at one point, prayed that she'd be drunk for 48 hours, and she was." "...I had to take her to the car, she wasn't much help in the morning, I came home at night, we had already invited guests for supper from the church that we were planting. Usually Janice is able to prepare the table and have the stuff ready so we can focus on our guests. Very undinner that night, no preparation. I went out for fish and chips, our guests arrived while I was gone. There were still no place-settings, so I put the fish and chips down, went to the cupboard for the plates, Janice is opening up the fish and chips and starts throwing the fish. [Laughter] Then she takes the french fries, dumps them on table and pushes little piles...[Laughter]" "...Now, there is lots that I do not understand, but I can put some pieces together and we've been praying for Janice for several years that the Lord would release a spirit of play, and He did that! " (GuyChevreau, Toronto Airport Vineyard, Pastor's Meeting, October 19, 1994)

This is nothing but blasphemy, deception, and confusion. (Cf. 1Cor. 14:33,40). The Scriptues nowhere speak of a "spirit of play" or God causing one to be as if physically drunk and without self-control. The opposite is true. Even in the days of miraculous gifts individuals were expected to act properly and could maintain self-control even while under the influence of the Spirit (1Cor. 14:26-33;see also the fruit of the Spirit, Gal. 5:22-23). Miraculous works have ceased (see my articles on "Have Miracles Ceased?"), but even in the days when they existed never was there anything as "holy laughter". The Lord demands that we set a proper example in all things and that we teach the truth (Mt. 5:16; 1Tim. 4:12; 2Jn. 9), The doctrine and practice of "holy laughter does neither.

--------------- I appreciate your sincerity and willingness to confront error. If I can help with any other questions please let me know….