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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Having Everything All Figured Out

March 31 2005, 4:55 PM 

Some day, I just might write a book entitled, “101 Excuses for Bucking the Word of God: The Mindset of the Change Movement.” Some of those excuses would include:

“We have freedom in Christ to do as we please.”
“Our love—not our doctrinal beliefs—is our greatest witness to the world.”
“The New Testament was written by a bunch of dead people; it’s too old to be relevant today.”

Among the top 20 excuses would be, “Only the arrogant and narrow-minded think they have everything figured out.” The latter also serves as an accusation which change agents and other detractors of the traditional Church of Christ hurl against us, because we maintain a strong confidence in our salvation. And we have such a confidence for a very good, specific reason: we believe that we follow the Word of God as laid out in the New Testament. In short, we have faith that we have “everything figured out,” because we rely on the Word.

Those who scoff at the idea of having “everything figured out” either have no confidence that the Word was, is, and always will be, the one-and-only key to salvation, or they don’t really believe that the Word is a divinely inspired document, or they maintain that the Word is subject to too many different interpretations to know what is or is not the truth. According to the New Testament, Christ didn’t seem to have much trouble “interpreting” His Father’s will when He laid it all out for us. For example, according to Mark 16:16, Jesus specified that those who believe and are baptized will be saved; those who don’t believe will be damned. Pretty cut and dry. Shouldn’t be any problems with “interpretation” there: Belief and baptism are essential for salvation. Yet change agents come along and say, “No, that’s not what Jesus really means. Baptism is not essential for salvation, because Jesus omits ‘baptism’ from the second half of the verse.” They completely ignore the first half of the verse, which definitively links belief AND baptism with salvation. We’ve discussed this particular issue time and time again in other forums. This illustrates that problems with interpretation come, not from the Word itself, but from hardened minds that are unreceptive to the Word, from biased attitudes that are unwilling to take the Word exactly at face value and let it speak directly to us, and from selfish souls who lift up their own personal preferences over biblical principles.

Why continue to wander around in a fog of disbelief or rebellion? Why resent anyone who strongly believes that by trusting and obeying the Word, they have “everything all figured out”? Any person can have it “all figured out” as well, if he/she will but yield completely to Jesus and His Word in all things, letting Him take over as the Sole Authority in your life. Is it not safer to take steps now to have “everything all figured out,” before you take your last breath in life?

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Having Everything All Figured Out

November 11 2011, 4:45 PM 

Let's see if Jeff Walling still thinks he's got it all figured out.

There's the Walling's Winterfest 2012 coming up.

Here's a review of the original article written by Paul Sain:

Should Youth Go to Winterfest?

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: APOSTATE: JEFF WALLING—Should Youth Go to Winterfest?

January 22 2012, 1:50 AM 

It's about this time of the year. And I think it has already started. First, I did a search online to obtain info on Fred Whaley's favorite place of worship with instrumental music, the band, the concert performers. Wow!!! I didn't realize the popularity of the events with the similar name
Winterfest 2012
Latest News. Check out the latest news from Winterfest 2012. You can view the rest in the archive. Just click the "News" tab at the top. wide ...
Dates - Smoky Mountain Winterfest - News - Photos

home · Arlington · Gatlinburg · Vendors · faq's · contact · shirt. WELCOME TO WINTERFEST 2012 Download Devos. Winterfest © 2011 | Privacy Policy.
Arlington - Vendors - FAQ's - Contact

Liberty Winterfest
Countdown Until Winterfest 2012 ... Ring on 2013 at Liberty's Winterfest. Celebrate the new year at Winterfest 2012 two action-packed days of high energy ...

2012 Winterfest Photo Contest Winners! | Wonderful World of Meeroos
2012 Winterfest Photo Contest Winners! Mon 01/09/12. Tiger's picture. By: Tiger. Click to enlarge. Winners have been announced!!! (Read more). 1. By: Jiminy ...

City of Rochester, Minnesota : Rochester WinterFest X
February 2 - 12, 2012. Welcome to the Rochester WinterFest home page. WinterFest takes place yearly during the first two weeks in February. WinterFest serves ...

Winterfest 2012 | Jan. 26-29
Winterfest 2012 | Jan. 26-29 Winter Fun for ... Winterfest Luau Extravaganza. Saturday 01.28 7pm to Midnight. Winterfest Pass. Your Pass to Winterfest Fun!

Lowell - Alive. Unique. Inspiring. : Lowell WinterFest
New & expanded WinterFest 2012. Thursday, February 9 - Saturday, February 11, 2012. food, music & fun for the whole family! "Looks of Lowell" Fashion Show ...

2012 Winterfest
Jan 8, 2012 2012 WINTERFEST. AT SUGAR HOLLOW. 2012 begins a new fundraiser for our rescue with the sled dogs. January 14,2012. JJ. Jennifer Levy ...

Home - Winterfest
twitter-icon2. Winterfest-no-year-horizontal. February 3 - 5, 2012. 01-2009-Winterfest-2009-393---Copy; 01-2009-Winterfest-2009-307---Copy; ober-gatlinburg ...

Winterfest 2012 - Beer and Wine Social | Runnin' For Rhett
Winterfest Beer & Wine Social 2012. Please join Runnin' For Rhett as we partner with more than 30 breweries, and 10 wineries to bring you Winterfest 2012!

News for 2012 winterfest
WinterFest Cardboard Sled Races
4 during WinterFest 2012. WinterFest will be held from noon to 3 pm on Feb. 4 on the front lawns of Prestwick Chase, 100 Saratoga Blvd. There will be no ...

This is a "Charismatic Worship Event" IMITATION!!!!

Check it out at this link:

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Fred Whaley, Did You Go?

February 7 2012, 12:42 AM 


Did you go to Jeff Walling's 2012 Winterfest?

How much did you spend for the 3-day event?

Which activities did you enjoy the most? The speeches? Musical group performances? Devotionals? "Worship services" with Jeff Walling ... possibly with instrumental music while he was away from his non-IM home congregation?

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Remember Rick Atchley

February 7 2012, 4:38 PM 

Rick Atchley boasts about taking the youth to such an even so they could listen to all of the "christian" instrument music. We warned and he finally confessed "We taught them to leaven our movement."

They are totally ignorant that they have been abandoned to what God sentenced Israel after they engaged in musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. This was BEYOND REDEMPTION. The other folly is that they are in the advice to Cyrus recorded in Heredotus about how to NEUTER the captured enemy. Make them into singers and instrument players and you will soon see them turned into women.

It is impossible to understand that God turned the Israelites over to worship the starry host BECAUSE of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.

Christ Who made the spiritual covenant with Abraham protected the godly people FROM Richland's patternism of Babylonianism.

The Church of Christ the Rock which the musical patternists continued throughout the Old Testament.

Part of the worship of all pagan worship or sacrificial systems was using MEN to perform the roles of Women (AS in David's naked dance."

Any Bible student would be able to follow the golden thread of those OF TRUTH or OF FAITH and mark and avoid the NACCs use of infiltrating agents just by defining words. They WILL NOT do that and music in the sacrificial system intended to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter" and is defined as DEVIL worship. The way to MARK the sons of the devil is that "they speak on their own.

Here is one such WORDS not available to your preacher or his once-Christian scholarly fellow travellers.

[linked image]

If your preacher claims the right to mediate in song and sermon that is the patternism they are copying;

2Chr. 11:15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.

2 Chronicles 11.15 qui constituit sibi sacerdotes excelsorum et daemonum vitulorumque quos fecerat

The SACERDOS speaks ONLY of pagan gods such as Apollo (Abaddon, Apollyon), RHEA or Zoe the mother of the gods now worshipped openly.. However, the ONLY good sense is

MOST preachers and ALL professional musicians CLAIM to mediate worship between the "audience"and God. In this they blaspheme:

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Daimonios possessed by a "god": II from Hdt. and Pi. downwds. (Trag. in lyr.), heaven-sent, miraculous, marvellous, blax Pi.P.4.37; teras B.15.35, S.Ant.376;

Plat. Sym. 202e Well what?
As I previously suggested, between a mortal and an immortal.
And what is that, Diotima?
A great spirit, Socrates: for the whole of the spiritual is between divine and mortal.
Possessing what power? I asked.
Interpreting and transporting human things to the gods and divine things to men;
entreaties and sacrifices from below,
and ordinances and requitals from above:
being midway between, it makes each to supplement the other, so that the whole is combined in one.
Through it are conveyed all divination [mantik] and priestcraft concerning sacrifice and ritual

Daimones and to daimonion represent the mysterious agencies and influences by which the gods communicate with mortals.

All of the Bible and recorded history says that when you rise up (AGAINST GOD) in rhetoric or musical idolatry you have blasphemed the Spirit of Christ in the prophets and the historic church in the wilderness.

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Feb 15, 2013 12:21 AM

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(no login)

Your Site...

February 7 2012, 8:14 AM 

Donnie asked; "Did you go to Jeff Walling's 2012 Winterfest?"

....and you wonder why you don't get meaningful dialogue from others......

WINTERFEST Gatlinburg February 17-19, 2012

To all who come here.....this is Donnie Cruz's CONCERNED MEMBERS site.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

WINTERFEST CORP. and Jeff Walling

February 8 2012, 1:34 AM 


There's no question that Jeff Walling is one of the most prominent change agents in the brotherhood.

Just refer to an earlier article (by Waldron) posted above: WINTERFEST CORPORATION AND JEFF WALLING
This para-church organization is no part of the church, but they annually feature their "Fallfest" or "Winterfest" programs to draw the youth of the church into their web of deceit. Just a few clicks of your mouse will reveal much about how this group which not only uses sectarians as a part of their program but features "contemporary Christian" performers using instrumental music with songs of praise and worship.

Jeff Walling will also be featured on the "Winterfest" 2000 at Gatlinburg in February. This brother over the last two decades has done as much as anyone to persuade the youth of the church of Christ that instrumental music in worship is "a matter of opinion...a gray area" (See Bulletin Briefs, May 1998 and Behold the Pattern, Goebel Music, 5114 Montclair, Colleyville, TX 76034, pp. 198-223). In many other ways, Walling continues to seek to change the church of our Lord into a carbon copy of protestant denominationalism. As evidence of this please note the following: In the Woodmont Hills Newsletter of September 29, 1999 (See, Rubel Shelly announced that he was going to be a "General Committee Member" on behalf of the June 2000 Billy Graham Crusade in Nashville. About one month later Walling announced (Providence Road Bulletin, Vol. XXVI, No. 21, Oct. 26, 1999) that Shelly would be their guest speaker for the Providence Road church for both services on November 7. Here is clear evidence that these two brothers are working together to restructure the church of Christ. In plain language their work with each other and the support for Billy Graham is such evidence. If not, why not?
So, that was in 2000. Winterfest still exists. Yes, I did ask Fred. What about you, Dave. Did you go to Jeff's Winterfest?

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(no login)

John 12:40

February 7 2012, 6:07 PM 

Acts 13
22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.
23 From this mans descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.

1 Chronicles 29
26 David son of Jesse was king over all Israel. 27 He ruled over Israel forty yearsseven in Hebron and thirty-three in Jerusalem. 28 He died at a good old age, having enjoyed long life, wealth and honor. His son Solomon succeeded him as king.

1 Chronicles 1
4 David and all the Israelites marched to Jerusalem (that is, Jebus). The Jebusites who lived there 5 said to David, You will not get in here. Nevertheless, David captured the fortress of Zionwhich is the City of David.
6 David had said, Whoever leads the attack on the Jebusites will become commander-in-chief. Joab son of Zeruiah went up first, and so he received the command. 7 David then took up residence in the fortress, and so it was called the City of David. 8 He built up the city around it, from the terraces to the surrounding wall, while Joab restored the rest of the city. 9 And David became more and more powerful, because the LORD Almighty was with him.

Hey Ken, now what about that dancer?

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)


February 8 2012, 4:17 PM 

[linked image]

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Feb 15, 2013 12:15 AM

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(no login)

im a youth student

February 21 2012, 12:20 PM 

I, myself am a youth student who experieced this yuear's winterfest and quite enjoyed myself actually. It chaned me in way I never thouht possible.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)


February 21 2012, 1:56 PM 

I suspect that my daughter and her daughter went to Winterfest with their church.

Would you define the form of music which was performed and what part did it play.

Do you remember the performers?


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(no login)

Re: Questions

February 21 2012, 4:17 PM 

Ken, it's not as bad as you think it is.

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(no login)

Re: Questions

February 21 2012, 6:48 PM 

"It's not as bad as you think it is." The serpent also convinced Eve that the consequences of eating the "forbidden fruit" would not be as bad God said they would be.

The greatest trick Satan has ever pulled has been to convince the world that he doesn't exist.

The greatest trick the change agents have ever pulled has been to convince the world that mixing worldly culture and practices with worship and praise "isn't so bad."

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Give me a Break!

October 4 2012, 4:50 PM 

Change agents? News flash, Jesus Christ was a change agent! And thanks be to God that He was! Otherwise we'd all still be living under the Law of Moses. A law that many in the church seem to be trying to bring us back under, just like the Pharisees did. Please please please STOP this infighting within the brotherhood. If you wanna use scripture I'll give you one. Meditate on it please, because it is what Jesus prayed for. UNITY & LOVE (John 17). Or how about this one, A house divided against itself will not stand. (Matt. 12:25) Stop the infighting! Enough already!

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Give me a Break!

October 4 2012, 5:00 PM 

There is no INfighting: men like Rick Atchley boast that they took the youth to the musical retreat to "help them leave our movement." There is no relationship between a Church of Christ and a "theater for holy entertainment."

Jesus warned that he did not pray for the WORLD and the changelings-hirelings promote "being as much like the world as possible to win the world."

If would be nice if the people who "infiltrate and divert" could silence those whoo cry thief. Sorry bout that.

If they do not speak according to the Word "there is no light in them" says the Spirit OF christ. So, the brotherhood ceases when people speak their own silly songs and sermons which often repudiate the Word of Christ.

[linked image]

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Feb 15, 2013 12:12 AM

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Re: Give me a Break!

October 4 2012, 6:46 PM 

Here's some more Scripture to ponder:

"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple" (Romans 16:17-18 KJV).

The change agents today are NOTHING like what Jesus was. Jesus came according to God's plan to supplant the Law of Moses with the spirit of the Law of Christ, the New Covenant. Do not ever liken Jesus to a "change agent," because the change agents of today only want to "retool" and "restructure" the Church that Christ established and turn it into one of the hundreds of other denominations of man's design. There is NOTHING in the New Testament that states the Church must be "changed" again. That is the raving of rebellious men who despise Christ's TRUE church.

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(no login)

Re: Questions

February 22 2012, 12:00 AM 

Why not simply ask them?

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John watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)

beware lectio divina derivatives

March 1 2012, 8:12 PM 

Lectio divina is a 4 step catholic practice and prayer concept that will bear watching at any youth group meeting or assembly. It may be called contemplative prayer or some other seeming innocent term. What it amounts to is mystical search for "truth" outside the Bible. We all know to contemplate the scriptures is not a bad idea at all. But to repeat a mantra over and over until one is in a trance like state is vain. One seeks the truth of God through the absolute truth of the scriptures and the other seeks to use ones own imagination and emotions as the guide in life. Some of the authors that promote this idea are Richard J Foster and Dan Kimball. Another of its leading proponents was Thomas Merton. If you hear these names being bounced around you know where they are headed.

The internet has much about lectio divina on it with the comment on one web site that this is only guidance there are no strict directions on how to do it. Kinda loose and hard to pin down.

Teaching others to seek personal revelation or a spiritual experience outside the scriptures is falsehood. The new testament is filled with directions that we are to know Gods will and apply to our everyday lives. Paul told timothy that we have everything we need to live a Godly life in the scriptures.

Consider that christians read books found in bookstores which promote or pay respect to these ideas.

Any of these winterfest or like youth gatherings should be reviewed and be forced to provide a complete written agenda and detailed description of all events including who the leaders are and what church they come form.

It's just basic spiritual security.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Spiritual formation

March 2 2012, 11:11 AM 

This is the Lipscomb strong delusions because they certainly have no Biblical scholarship: Lying Wonders is the outbreak of musical and theatrical performance to, in the words of Rick Atchly, teach the youth to LEAVE OUR MOVEMENT.

Sounds like witchcraft: ACU and LU are presently into trying to grow out of your own imagination which God says is "only evil continually."

Because the spirit is the mind, God gave it the supernatural gifts of the senses. And because Jesus said my WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFT, Paul said that we GROW by feeding on the Word which IS Spirit.

I wonder why people waged by a church would have any interest in neo-paganism or Wicca which Lynn Anderson promotes so wonderfully at LU and ACU?

Arnobius who has so much to say against music as SORCERY in agreement with John 18

He also said: But you will, perhaps, say that the gods are not artificers, nay, that under their care all things have been placed, which we manage and conduct." (Arnobius Against the Heathen, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 470).

The soothsayers receive their knowledge of their art from the Phythian god, and why does he so often give and affort answeres equivocal, doubtful, dteeped in darkness and obscurity." (Arnibious, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 470)

Remember, that Paul repudiates this common practice by casting out the DIVINING SPIRIT frome the young girl. Even speaking truth by an EVIL SPIRIT was not approved.

But it is only poets whom you have thought proper to allow to invent unseemly tales about the gods, and to turn them shamefully into sport?

....What do your pantomimists, the actors, that crowd of mimics and adulterers?

....Do they not abuse your gods make themselves gain,
....and do not the others find enticing, pleasures in the wrongs and insults offered to the gods?

Are the public games, too, the colleges of all the priests and magistrates take their place, the chief Pontiffs, and the chief priests of the curiae... crowned with wreaths of laurel, the flamines diales with their mitres;

....the augurs take their place, who disclose the divine mind and will;
....and chaste maidens also, who cherish and guard the ever-burning place."

Arnobius, further

"Mocking the belief that Mellonia introduces herself into the entrails, or Limentinus, and that they set themselves to make known what you seek to learn, Arnobius asks--

May it not happen, may it not come to pass,
....although you craftily conceal it,
....that the one should take the other's place, deluding, mocking, deceiving,
....and presenting the appearance of the deity invoked?

If the magi, who are so much akin to soothsayers, relate that, in their incantations,

....pretend gods steal in frequently instead of those invoked; that some of these, moreover,
....are spirits of grosser substance,
....who pretend that they are gods,
....and delude the ignorant by their lies and deceit."
....(Arnobius Against the Heathen, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 479).

The overwhelming evidence is that music and the other outlawed creation of mental excitement by the use of rituals is something that can fool only the ignorant and lower classes.

There is nothing that any human can do to nourish the SPIRIT but feed it on the Word of God which IS Spirit and Life. Just because the once-Christian colleges have fallen into something bordering on witchcraft you should not endorse anyone seeking to follow the misleaders.

Randy Harris, Gary Holloway and Rhonda Lowery
Growing Deeper: A look at contemplative Spirituality.

Harris said. This is aimed at students, not the guests. Ive done a number of things related to the topic, Harris said. Hes spent time at a Trappist monastery, a Buddhist retreat, a Celtic retreat house and a hermit community for 40 days of silent prayer.

Were in a world where everyone is looking for religious experience, Harris said. Monks and hermits are people who seem to know about that thats why Ive gone to check em out. . . . Though he studies mysticism, Harris said his education on the subject includes learning through experience. Ive done a whole lot of reading about it,

but you get to a point where you dont want to read about it, Harris said. Ive really been on a search and kinda decided I would go any place in the world to try and learn from people who know about meditation or contemplative prayer or who were practicing a mystical tradition.

Lipscomb University Preaching 2008 From Denominational Imagination!

This conference proposes that WE allow the worlds imagined the essential biblical narratives dramatically shape our preaching and lives.

We believe that preaching reconstitutes biblical paradigms when it engages Scriptures vision

....1. by representing what is absent
.... 2. and making present what is inaccessible
.... 3. to the end that followers of God will live into a God-shaped reality.

Whoa! Far gone, don't go there or be LED into this witchery

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Mar 2, 2012 11:14 AM

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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)

more about lectio divina

March 2 2012, 10:36 PM 

More authors who favor and promote lectio divina - contemplative prayer

Ruth Haley Barton uses in one of her publications the passage of I Kings 19:9-13 to justify contemplative prayer and offers various descriptive narratives.

Tilden Edwards, Henry Nouwen and Brennan Manning favor the idea

Then there is the Youth Ministry Spirituality Project funded by the Eli Lilly organization advertising all over its web site about contemplative this and that. They produce and distribute Training seminars, conventions, videos, magazines, other resource products.

Persons who go these places may well bring the poison back to Gods elect.

Comments welcome

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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