We like havin a map. Don't tell me to follow you, just give me a map.
Some of us think he did, that this is a diagnostic tool.
I don't need the leading of the Lord,
I've got the Scriptures.
It is my substitute for the leading of the Lord.
Mike Cope is calling in his Friend, Rick Atchley who turned a church of Christ into an instrumental Christian Church because Rick was "born-ed" in the Christian Church. Under the ploy of unity under the guidance of the NACC, he sowed massive disunity by twisting all of the Bible and church history. Rick speaks from the authority of "I" but does not read the PLOT of the mentions of instruments under a system of LEGALISM and slaughter.
"You are going to find a LOT of a cappella churches that are gonna' start saying Sunday morning we are going to be a cappella, but after that, we are going to let a lot of freedom reign, which is pretty much what we do at Richland Hills.
You walk into our youth center Sunday morning or Wednesday night: and I'm telling you; Christian rock an' roll is just blasting" (p. 9).
Well, we discipled the children of those progressive churches
for a whole generation to grow past us Boomers.
They never heard the sermons we heard.
They never heard the rationale for a cappella music.
We sent them to youth rallies and Church of Christ events
with some of the finest Christian bands in the world.
We discipled our children to leave our Movement!
David Skidmore will join the band this year. I have reviewed one of his sermons about those FAR AWAY AND THOSE NEAR. Those FAR AWAY are defined as those practicing the rhetorical, musical and theatrical efforts to SILENCE the voice of the victim.
Religious staff are not the key to SAVING OUR YOUTH: that would be too arrogant. The command of Jesus was to let them come to ME and REST from the outrages and LEARN OF ME. Then, let God give the increase. you probably insult most youth by making them an inferior SECT of your assembly.
SHOULD YOUTH GO TO WINTERFEST?
Paul Sain
First, for those who may not be familiar with "Winterfest," it is an annual youth gathering in the Gatlinburg, Tennessee area which has drawn hundreds and hundreds of youth from many congregations.
Second, be assured I am NOT against youth gatherings as such. I have carried youth to, and participated in, some excellent series which have resulted in good fruit. Youth are SO special and very important. They are at a critical time in their lives. Fervently we desire to teach, edify, support, aid and guard them as they mature in Christ.
Third, I am NOT attempting to "police" the brotherhood. Within the last two weeks I have been asked in three separate conversations to help with information about this gathering, advise leaders with the facts and specifically Jeff Walling (the speaker for this year).
Fourth, personal preference, likes or dislikes of a particular event or person, etc., must not determine the right or wrong of going to such activities. We must be willing to "LET THE BIBLE ANSWER" the matter. We MUST make our decisions based on principles and commands found within the pages of inspired Scripture. God has spoken! His Word can and must direct our steps in this age. If indeed we love and are determined to obey God, then we MUST take notice of the overwhelming testimony against support of such activities.
Time and space does not allow an exhaustive study of these matters, but let's pose the following questions as very pertinent. Then we humbly request an examination of the Scriptures cited.
QUESTIONS: "Do we not need to address the special needs of our youth?" "Can't we just go and 'hear' the good and leave the 'bad' alone?" "Doesn't Jeff teach a lot of 'good' along with the questionable things?" "Even if we attend, does it mean we agree with (or support) what is taught?" "Do we have the right to 'judge' and 'label' others?" "Well, just what has Jeff Walling taught that is so wrong?"
Ephesians 5:11 -- "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." FACT: The apostle Paul is clearly stating the faithful follower of God CANNOT fellowship (have joint participation) with teachers of evil or darkness. FACT: Instead of fellowship, we must be willing to reprove them. (If you disagree with this, take it up with the Almighty Father who inspired the writings of Paul.)
2 John 9-11 -- "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." FACT: It is possible to be religious, a teacher of spiritual matters, a powerful and persuasive speaker, but NOT teach the doctrine of Christ. FACT: A person such as this has "transgressed" (sinned). FACT: In God's view, such teachers are engaging in "evil deeds." FACT: Faithful Christians must NOT "receive" and "bid" (support, condone, encourage) God speed to them. FACT: If we bid God speed to them, we become partaker of their evil deeds! FACT: We can bid God speed to them by financially supporting them, encouraging them by purchasing their books, tapes and supplies.
Galatians 1:6-9 -- "...there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." FACT: It is possible to trouble and "pervert" the gospel of Christ (then and now). FACT: To preach a different gospel than the gospel of Christ is to be condemned in God's sight.
Titus 1:11-13 -- "Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake....Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith." FACT: False teachers destroy and subvert whole houses. FACT: The mouths of false teachers MUST be stopped if we are to follow Paul's instruction. FACT: It must be accomplished by loving, strong, faithful Christians. Otherwise, we too might be carried away (Heb. 13:9). FACT: False teachers must be rebuked sharply, to help them be "sound in the faith."
Matthew 7:15 -- "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." FACT: A religious teacher, even a brother in Christ may look like a sheep, but actually be a ravenous wolf! FACT: We must be on guard and watch (Acts 20:31). FACT: Characteristics describing false teachers should cause great concern and alarm: deceitful (Eph. 5:6); seductive (Mark 13:21-22); dogs and evil workers (Phil. 3:2); devils (1 Tim. 4:1-3); evil men (2 Tim. 3:13); hypocrites (2 Peter 2:1-3); false prophets (1 John 4:1); ungodly men (Jude 4); corrupters of the Word of God (2 Cor. 2:17); have corrupt minds (1 Tim. 6:5); creep in (2 Tim. 3:6); creep in unaware (Jude 4); unruly and vain talkers (Titus 1:10); make God's Word of none effect (Matt. 15:6); teach commandments of men (Matt. 15:9); speak perverse things (Acts 20:30); transform themselves into ministers of righteousness (2 Cor. 11:13-15); speak lies (1 Tim. 4:2); speak words of vanity (2 Peter 2:18).
RELATED QUESTIONS
Let us be open minded and willing to examine facts about this destiny-determining matter.
"Can we not just go and hear (receive) the good and reject anything taught that is bad (contrary to the Word)?" First, on the same basis, why would we not go to Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggert, or Oral Roberts gatherings (though we KNOW they fail to teach the whole truth of God).
For ones who suggest such, I ask, how much error would have to be taught to make it "wrong" to attend? A little? Half? Folks, rat poison (I am told) is 98% harmless. It's the 2% poison that can kill you. Error kills.
Further, while it might be possible for the "mature" Christian to hear and "discern" truth from error, surely we do not want to place our youth in such a treacherous position! Youth are intelligent, but dear ones, many of them are still "babes" in Christ.
"What has Jeff Walling taught that is so wrong?" Space is insufficient to give thorough details to speakers and topics. These have been examined and exposed in various books and publications. A vast amount of material has been available for some time, for any and all who seek the truth and desire to defend it.
How do we determine a teacher of TRUTH versus a teacher of ERROR? Obviously, by taking what he has stated or written (intelligent man is surely able to convey his beliefs clearly where it can be understood).
In the early 1980's (over fifteen years ago), at a youth gathering in Andover, Kansas, Walling was a guest speaker. During a panel discussion, which was being moderated by Chuck Northrop (a faithful gospel preacher) the question arose concerning the scripturalness of instrumental music in worship. Brother Northrop correctly stated such was not authorized and supported his statements with Scripture. Walling (who was not a part of the panel) came to the podium and declared that instrumental music in worship is simply "a matter of opinion...a gray area." He has continued to defend that position in the years since that time (Cf. Behold The Pattern, p.215).
About eight years ago, at the Soul Winning Workshop in Tulsa, Oklahoma, Jeff taught false doctrine as he spoke on the subject "That They All May Be One." Specifically he spoke on John 17. The church of our Lord was described in denominational terms. He advocated fellowship with denominations. He taught degrees of fellowship.
In 1994, at the Pepperdine University Lectures, he spoke on "The Community Church...of Christ?" Those in attendance, taking his lesson at plain and simple value, would believe the denominational community church is designed and acceptable by Almighty God. He advocates the community church as the church of Christ in the New Testament also.
At the recent Jubilee (1998) in Nashville, the video tape of Walling's three evening speeches include MECHANICAL MUSIC, a woman giving public testimony before the whole assembly, as well as an apology to the denominational world. The lessons also reflected sarcasm and ridicule of the "old paths" and the faithful, while suggesting change and restructure. From the initial phone call" to God to his closing speech, the audience was fed a steady diet of liberalism.
Often, Walling (as well as others) makes fun and slurs others who are sincerely striving to walk in the steps of the Saviour. In his book, "Daring to Dance with God" he advocates that God is inviting us to come and dance with him...not at arms length; rather he pulls us in tight, taking us for the "dance of a lifetime...." His play on words is offensive, as he associates the holy with the profane. He talks about Christians whose "dancing shoes are too light." They need to let go and loosen up a little, he teaches. Other Christians he calls the "Gospel Gestapos" as ones ever on patrol for those who do or say things not exactly as they think it should be. I suppose anyone who dares question anyone, or who exposed another for teaching falsely would be so labeled.
It is quite revealing to note that Max Lucado is the one who wrote the foreword to this book. This is the same one who a few months ago taught his radio audience to just let God be their father, and be saved. He told his listeners who had prayed that prayer (often otherwise referred to as the "sinner's prayer") they had been saved! Walling acknowledges Lucado for his inspiration, encouragement and letting him call him friend. (Yes, it is true that most often those of like persuasion do associate.) Can you imagine the apostle Paul using a false teacher to promote some work in which he was involved, and thanking him for his encouragement and for calling him friend.
"But isn't Jeff Walling also scheduled to be the main speaker atDavid Lipscomb University soon?" Tragically, this is true! The powers that continue to chart the course for DLU seem determined to follow the movement of change and restructure. They are aware. Pleas have been made and ignored. The popular course is preferred instead of truth (doctrine).
"Should we 'judge' and 'label' one another? Are we not all guilty of sin?" Yes, we are all guilty of sin (Rom. 3:23). But this does not neutralize our obligation to defend (Phil. 1:7,17) and contend (Jude 3) and guard and warn (Acts 20:28ff). We are commanded to judge righteously (John 7:24). How can one possibly obey Romans 16:17 of marking and avoiding them which cause division due to a "contrary" doctrine, if we do not judge? What does it mean to "label" (draw attention to them) when it says "mark" in Romans 16:17? How can we obey 2 John 9-11 of not bidding God speed to a teacher of a doctrine other than of Christ, unless we "judge?" The obvious conclusion, we must judge, mark, and identify teachers of false doctrines. It will not be pleasant. It is not enjoyable. It may involve a friend or family member, but it must be done, if we are to obey our Father!
By the way, the "change agents" often charge those who are contending for the faith as being "unloving" and "brotherhood watchdogs" etc. These often declare that we are sinning when we "condemn" others. I have heard strong and vicious attacks made upon the Spiritual Sword journal or Memphis School of Preaching. Surely these inconsistent folks should be scolded themselves for "condemning" others. Are they "unloving" for charging others as being "unloving?" Are they "watchdogs" as they are "watchdogs" over others? Brethren, condemning the condemners is condemnation too!
Be Willing To At Least Answer The Following Questions?
Before you make your final decision, or put this grave issue aside, will you examine the following series of questions?
What would one have to teach to be a "false teacher?" Would accepting and embracing mechanical music in worship be enough? Would fellowshipping ones in man-made religions be sufficient? Would advocating and practicing women leading the worship assembly be adequate? Would teaching one to be saved by merely "calling God your father" be enough? (The "change agents" have done all of these and much more!)
Would it EVER be right to "mark" others as false teachers? In view of the explicit commands in the Word of God, what would it take for such to be necessary and right? Would the passive and "love everybody" brethren be willing EVER to identify and expose the false teacher?
Was the apostle Paul acting as God desired, in a Christ-like manner, setting an example for us, when he spoke of Alexander the coppersmith, Hymenaeus, Philetus as well as false teachers? He spoke by the power of Almighty God. His words are inspired. He acted righteously in these things. We should and must follow His example (1 Cor. 11:1).
We must love everyone, seek the lost with the saving message of the Saviour, but are we not also COMMANDED to fight, war, defend, contend, and stand? Are these a part of the faithful Christian life? Do we have the right to "pick and choose" what we want to do? Can we fulfill our obligation to the Saviour without a balanced, complete obedience to ALL of God's commands?
If it would be acceptable to go to and support Winterfest, would it be likewise acceptable to go to and support a Billy Graham Crusade? We could take the good and leave the bad, as some suggest. We could probably hear as much truth, as well as error, as many have done at some previous Winterfest, Jubilee, Tulsa gatherings.
THINK! Go to the past for a great lesson. In the long ago a prophet of God was charged with being the one who "troubled" Israel. He was not guilty. He was, in fact, the one who was doing what God wanted. Those who charged the prophet were actually the ones who were guilty of being the "troublers" of Israel.
Is it possible that many who are charged today with "troubling" the brotherhood, being "police" and "watchdogs" are actually the ones who are diligently seeking to obey the direct commands of their Lord? Is it possible that those who are so charging others, may actually be the ones who are "troublers" and further are they so weak and compromising that they fail to follow the instructions of God's Word?
Winterfest Is Dangerous!
We Should NOT Send Our Youth There! We must make decisions on the facts. If we don't have the facts and were to attend an event and problems arise, then the problems could then be dealt with. But when we KNOW the facts before time, we surely should avoid dangerous situations. An eldership must make decisions for their local congregation. Autonomy is God's way! Others cannot (and should not) force opinions upon them. But dear brethren, elders MUST follow the Word of Almighty God. Elders can be encouraged to follow that Word. Elders surely are open and receptive to such admonition.
Winterfest has proven itself to be a platform for those who teach a "contrary doctrine." There is no doubt concerning Jeff Walling being a "false teacher" ~ one who embraces positions (doctrines) contrary to the doctrine of Christ. He teaches some things right. But think, dear ones, is there anyone who is a religious teacher but what teaches SOME things correctly? Most teach MANY things accurately, but others through centuries of time shout "God demands complete obedience!" "God will NOT tolerate deviation!" "God won't accept error!"
Why would any eldership allow the flock (over which the Holy Ghost has made them overseers, Acts 20:28ff), to graze among the wolves? An elder who would knowingly support such an event and false teacher is accountable in eternity for souls lost. They will give account to their Commander-in-Chief for their action.
Why would any parent possibly allow their precious young ones to go among and be taught (molded, guided, instructed) by the wolves? Do you want to take the chance of your young people being led astray?
Would we allow our youth to play with poisonous snakes? Would we encourage them to drive reckless or extremely fast (or similar dangerous activities)? Foolish questions? Certainly! But we must NOT allow our young ones to fall prey to wolves in sheep's clothing.
Jubilee, Tulsa Workshop, Pepperdine, Abilene Christian, etc., have been places where "change agents" (wolves in sheep's clothing) are (by their teaching) advocating a complete destruction of the unique body of Christ. They are teaching and encouraging fellowship with denominations.
Our youth are precious to us. We should value and treasure each precious opportunity to teach and influence them. Let us make certain, to the best of our ability, what they are taught is good and right. Make certain it is NOT evil and false ways.
Paul Sain
P.O. Box 329
Pulaski, TN 38478
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Feb 14, 2013 11:58 PM This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.165.60 on Feb 5, 2013 11:45 AM This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.165.60 on Feb 5, 2013 11:44 AM This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.165.60 on Feb 5, 2013 11:42 AM This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.165.130 on Jan 29, 2013 2:34 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.154.171.63 on Jan 26, 2004 8:25 AM
The above named corporate body has its headquarters in Edmond, Oklahoma and is known as the "Winterfest Group." According to its website report (See http://www.winterfest.org) its officers are Greg Anderson of the Western Hills Church in Nashville, Dudley Chancey, Oklahoma Christian University and Johnny Markum of the College Street Church in Lebanon, Tennessee.
This para-church organization is no part of the church, but they annually feature their "Fallfest" or "Winterfest" programs to draw the youth of the church into their web of deceit. Just a few clicks of your mouse will reveal much about how this group which not only uses sectarians as a part of their program but features "contemporary Christian" performers using instrumental music with songs of praise and worship. You may listen to a block of this type music from the website. Here is a quote concerning one of the "contemporary" groups called, "Solomon's Wish" which will be on the program of Winterfest 2000 in Gatlinburg next month.
"Mike Hurst, Scott Roberts and Kevin "Toby" Tobias wrap their pop sensibilities and intricate vocals around themes such as feeling lack of direction ("Circle in the Sand") and living for Christ ("Easier Said than Done") while creating contemporary praise with songs like "Waterfall" and "God is Alive." Drawing from personal experiences, study times and often pastors sermons, all three are heavily involved in the song writing process for Solomon's Wish. Scott laughs -- "I always pay attention when someone wiser than me is talking -- there's always material!"
"With Scott on percussion as Mike and Toby complement the Solomon's Wish sound with acoustic guitar, the trio is as dynamic in live performance as their songs demand. All three have been involved in some aspect of church ministry, most specifically in youth ministry, where the threesome have felt called to work with teens. But for Solomon's Wish, performing a concert for a youth group is more than just doing their best on stage -- it is spending time with the kids before and after the show."
Jeff Walling will also be featured on the "Winterfest" 2000 at Gatlinburg in February. This brother over the last two decades has done as much as anyone to persuade the youth of the church of Christ that instrumental music in worship is "a matter of opinion...a gray area" (See Bulletin Briefs, May 1998 and Behold the Pattern, Goebel Music, 5114 Montclair, Colleyville, TX 76034, pp. 198-223). In many other ways, Walling continues to seek to change the church of our Lord into a carbon copy of protestant denominationalism. As evidence of this please note the following: In the Woodmont Hills Newsletter of September 29, 1999 (See www.woodmont.org), Rubel Shelly announced that he was going to be a "General Committee Member" on behalf of the June 2000 Billy Graham Crusade in Nashville. About one month later Walling announced (Providence Road Bulletin, Vol. XXVI, No. 21, Oct. 26, 1999) that Shelly would be their guest speaker for the Providence Road church for both services on November 7. Here is clear evidence that these two brothers are working together to restructure the church of Christ. In plain language their work with each other and the support for Billy Graham is such evidence. If not, why not?
Let me entreat in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ all elders to warn (1 Thess. 5:14) those under your care (Acts 20:28) against such programs of compromise as "Winterfest." Men who have been placed as elders over God's flock are required to stop the mouths of those "who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain" (Titus 1:11). And, if you do not think these "Fallfests" and "Winterfests" are a money making operation for those involved, you just ask the young people or their parents what the costs are to see the sideshows to the "religious" segment.
-- Jim E. Waldron
-- “Seek The Old Paths” (Vol. 11 No. 2, February 2000)
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NOTE: The “mini-calendar” of events for the MYG (Madison Youth Group) shows the “Winterfest” again is scheduled for February 20-22, 2004. [Donnie Cruz]
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This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.154.171.63 on Jan 27, 2004 9:28 AM
your'e in left field-the ball is falling in the right field!
March 25 2005, 11:03 PM
You are in left field concerning Winterfest! I am a youth leader in my church with youth of my own and clearly God is and has used the Winterfest program to help revive and strengthen our youth. Should you not waste your plight to worry others with your words of fear? Couldn't you use your time and energy more wisely by encouraging others who are making a difference in our world today (Winterfest) and its organization? Come on, really, I hope people read what you have to say and go and attend just to find out for thierselves how God uses Winterfest to change lives!!!!Use your energy for what matters the winning of souls! not the cutting down of the brotheren and Gods annointed! Get in the right field! Catch the ball (vision) of what God is doing! Ive only experienced good from Winterfest and so has our teenagers!!!!
Lisa, you CANNOT look at two things at the same time: you look at Jeff and his theatrical performing circle OR you look at the Christ of God through HIS Words which are SPIRIT and LIFE. You are feeding the kids on Steroids: they might hit the ball and loose the prize. I hope that you are not a foul ball.
Most of us are into the Word and don't GET VISIONS. People who claim that they get visions (Max Lucado) or are getting a NEW VISION about the Church through a NEW SET OF GLASSES (Rubel Shell) and tell people to TAKE LIBERTIES and make up their story are FAR SPENT and are seeing STRONG DELUSIONS. Carol Wimber the MOTHER of the Vineyard (aka New Wineskins) knows and promotes the EXCITEMENT of musical worship as having a CLIMATIC EXPERIENCE with the Spirit.
Jeff Walling is the Champion Axe Man against churches of Christ which know that Jeff doesn't have a clue about the Bible. Lisa, if you are the Youth Leader does that explain why so-called worship has gone effeminate to the extreme? That was part of the end-time prophecy in Revelation 18:22.
Take a look at some of Jeff's Poison stuff trying to get the Youth to rebel against their elders who KNOW the Bible whereas Jeff Does not or is deliberately perverting it.
I can understand why the THEATRICAL PROFESSIONALS would appeal to women and the youth but NOT to male leadership. You know it was always known that DRAMA WORKS BECAUSE IT ISN'T TRUE. And there is not even a remote hint that Christian worship has ANY musical content which arouses the pleasure centers of the youth alread brain dead from music which is known by the Bible, history and medicine to HURT and break down the rational or spiritual nature.
The word CHARISMATIC named after Chara or Grace the brown-eyed Greek perverted goddess is both a MARK and a FACILITATOR of perverted sexuality.
See how Jeff Walling advises the Youth leaders [Where God ordained mature males] to rebel against the church and its leaders. Whatever problems the church might have were CAUSED--for an unlawful and ungodly wage--can now be FIXED by the same unlawful and ungodly PROFESSIONALS--for an unlawful fee now DOUBLED. There are no PAID roles in the church which is not a pagan--always female dominated--"worship center" but a SYNAGOGUE or school of the Bible. The direct command of the Founder of His own school is to "come learn of Me."
But, part of the effeminate INFILTRATE and DIVERT is to lie, lie, lie. They do the HATCHET JOB on the church and pass the GUILT on the weeping, bleeding widows who are forced out of the church building they PAID FOR. Shame, shame, shame. Paul outlawed female leadership because of EVE. Eve is also know as ZOE. When she used the TOUCH word literate students know that she was saying that EATING mant that she was not supposed to have sex with the SERPENT (Sophia of your Gnostic paganism) or daughter ZOE who was the BEAST and the female instructing principle.
When Eve (Zoe) and ALL female leadership OUTLAWED in the church of Christ used the word TOUCH it did not mean to put her fingers on an APPLE:
Naga (h5060) naw-gah'; a prim. root; prop. to touch, i. e. lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphem., to lie with a woman); by impl. to reach (fig. to arrive, acquire); violently, to strike (punish, defeat, destroy, etc.): - beat, (* be able to) bring (down), cast, come (nigh), draw near (nigh), get up, happen, join, near, plague, reach (up), smite, strike, touch.
Paul said that Eve was WHOLLY SEDUCED in the same way a new bride is seduced BEFORE her husband gets too her. That is why CAIN (maning a musical note) was the leader of the perverting MUSICAL band where HANDLED means WITHOUT AUTHORITY for the purpose of STEALING the free animals. That is why he is said to be OF THAT WICKED ONE. The ZOE GROUP have dug up EVE because APOLLO or Abbadon or Apollyon was prophesied to dig up the LOCUSTS. These are MUSICAL PERFORMERS, female like locusts with a SCORPION sting in their TAILS.
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brothers righteous. 1Jn.3:12
The PARABLE in which God spoke from the foundaiton of the world to FOOL the traffickers has its Babylonian parallel where the shepherds were not located and did not engage in the FERTILITY RITUALS which are provable by singing, clapping or other ACTS deliberately intended to produce sexual feelings. On the other hand, the Agriculturists were devoted to FERTILITY RITUALS where music stimulates sexual and homosexual WORSHIP which was to PRODUCE MORE LAMBS. In the case of the NEW STYLE worship from the Towers of Babylon, FERTILITY WORSHIP is intended to produce more PAYING AUDIENCE afflicted by the unlawful TITHE and unlawful LAW OF GIVING. You remember that Lot pitched his tent toward SODOM where SODOMITES and prostitutes stimulated the "worship." That is why Jerusalem is called Sodom and Egypt. Mostly CITY FOLK get involved with that.
In the Babylonian parallel accounts, INANNA got EA, the patron god of music or LAMECH, drunk and stole the powers of the ELDERSHIP, MUSICAL WORSHIP, PERVERTED RITUALS,TEMPLE BUILDING AND DESTROYING and stirring up DISCORD between otherwise peacable brethren.
ALL musical terms, vocal or instrumental when used to DRIVE the stroking of the pleasure centers, are connected with SEXUALITY or even SATAN. That is what Paul said where most people will USE IT TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION."
Nagan (h5059) naw-gan'; a prim. root; prop. to thrum, i. e. beat a tune with the fingers; espec. to play on a stringed instrument; hence (gen.) to make music: - player on instruments, sing to the stringed instruments, melody, ministrel, play (-er, -ing..
You remember that Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels who would almost certainly be female. The literature is certain that MALES who engaged in singing and playing were DRUNK or HOMOSEXUAL. That is the meaning of the ABOMINABLE BRANCH who did their musical-sexual "worship" right there in the Holy Place as a type of the church. A related word is:
Negiynah (g5058) neg-ee-naw'; or nˇgynath neg- ee- nath'; from 5059; prop. instrumental music; by impl. a stringed instrument; by extens. a poem set to music; spec. an epigram: - stringed instrument, musick, Neginoth [plur.], song
Thou shalt bring down the NOISE of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the TERRIBLE ones shall be brought low. Isaiah 25:5
The Branch of the Terrible ones has the same meaning as Negiynah:
Zamiyr (h2158) zaw-meer'; or zamir zaw-meer'; and (fem.) zˇmirah zem-ee-raw'; from 2167; a song to be accompanied with instrumental music: - psalm (-ist), singing, song
I don't see how God intends to USE a commercial, trafficking institution to CHANGE LIVES when the OLDEN God in Christ used the WORD to produce FAITH. Lucifer or ZOE was the PRETENDED Day Star. Max Lucado even gives him hope of redemption. However, the Christ of God is the TRUE Day star and YOU have chosen Lucifer to GIVE THE INCREASE while ignoring God in Christ by hallucinating that you have the Lucado-Shelly "spirit person" in your body Rocking and Rolling:
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 2Pe.1:19
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1 Peter 1:11
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev 19:10
Scripture says there are GODS CHOSEN BY WOMEN and gods chosen by men. That is why God OUTLAWED women--the children of Eve or Zoe--from letting loose their EMOTIONAL religion as "women and children rule over you." You CANNOT be a Christian and be anything more than a DISCIPLE. If you FAIL to disciple then don't PAY the same people who are using music to starve our kids for loss of the Word (Amos 5, 6, 8 and Isaiah 5).
I am quite certain that the EXPERIENCED or CHARISMATIC "thusing" which you JUDGE to be changes will--historically--last only until the NEXT FIX because music and excitement produced CHANGES are drug-highs. I know about YOUTH MEETINGS and as an elder I had to deal with the BACKLASH from drug-induced changes. I baptized my oldest daughter who had been THUSED by the DELIBERATE production of a DRUG high by YOUTH leaders.
Your addiction to WINNING MORE SOULS is consistent with people I know who claim that I WILL DO ANYTHING TO WIN MORE SOULS and they claim the mean AND DO anything. My own little dead church in the High Woods would WINTERFESTED about to death because the SAME traffickers are into other things like the Purpose Driven Cult and The Promise Keeper's Cult, etc, etc. YOU don't have the power to WIN SOULS. The CROSS is what attracts those who CAN BE attracted and that means suffering and reproach and not PERVERTED PLEASURING. Paul OUTLAWED pleasuring because not even God in Christ used PLEASURING to "win more souls." Pleasuring means to LIFT UP or CAUSE mental excitement. The major MANUFACTURER of pleasuring in the Greek word is directly related to the word for EXTERNAL SINGING which was a tool of witchcraft or sorcery. The PURPOSE DRIVEN goal was called HERESY. That word is related to LIFTING UP and SINGING. The goal of HERESY is to use SINGING to LIFT people up to CARRY THEM away for their OWN USES.
What you identify as WINNING MORE SOULS relates DIRECTLY to the Sacrificial MUSICIANS. They used singing and instruments to aid the Priests to LIFT UP THE ANIMALS to CUT THEIR THROATS. This GRACE CENTERED repudiation of the Word of God to CONVERT MORE SOULS proves that you are winning more souls CHARISMATICALLY (Grace is Charis or Chara). And charismatic worship is 100% the MARK of perverted sexual "worship."
JEFF WALLING: “That They All [Denominations] May Be One [with Us]”
January 28 2004, 7:41 AM
WHY SOME AREA CHURCHES OF CHRIST CANNOT SUPPORT THE 1993 AREA WIDE COLISEUM MEETING IN CORINTH
MARVIN PHILLIPS
TERRY RUSH
JEFF WALLING
WHITE'S FERRY ROAD SUPPORTS ERROR
CHUCK LUCAS AT WHITE'S FERRY ROAD
INTERNATIONAL CHRISTIAN MINISTRIES
ERROR TAUGHT IN THE PULPIT
SPECIAL GROUP SINGING
UNCERTAIN SOUNDS
NO ANSWERS
CONCLUSION
Garland M. Robinson – Editor
JEFF WALLING
At the 1990 Tulsa Workshop (Larry West spoke twice that year), Jeff Walling preached a lesson entitled, That They All May Be One. In this lesson he spoke of throwing a calf-rope around those in denominationalism since we are all believers, that we all may be "one" as the Lord prayed in John 17:20-21. Here is what he said:
...But assume for just a minute the crazy concept that there may be some folks out in the world who honest-to-goodness love Jesus with all their heart who would want to give him anything they have in their hands, but for whatever reason, at this moment, they are not fellowshipping in a building that says "Church of Christ" on it. Now, just free your mind up for that bizarre possibility. Now, can you say with me, that we may be one? You say, "No! God forbid! It's heresy!" The first odd thing I want you to note in the text is that Jesus doesn't say, when he says the "they" the obedient might be one; he doesn't say, that "the church of Christers might be one." He doesn't say that "those that agree with Jeff Walling." Who does he ask would be united - would be one? "I pray for those who will go to church... No, No, No... I pray, verse 20, for those who will believe in me." ... Now, folks, I don't want to break anybody's back tonight as you try to bend over and go with me, but I want you to wrestle with the fact that the text says "believers." ... But I'll tell you what, in order to preach the text, we can't get into this lesson without appreciating the fact that Jesus asked that we would throw the calf-rope around all of those who just believe in Him, and pray and work for the unity of all believers.
In a conversation with Jeff Walling in 1988, he was asked if he believed mechanical instrumental music was a sin and his answer was, "No." He said he couldn't say it was a sin because the Bible didn't say it. He said to say it was a sin was to go beyond scripture. He compared instrumental music to a congregation that had elders and deacons or one without elders and deacons.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.19.205.168 on Jan 28, 2004 9:37 AM
Parents, do you want your children exposed to this -- the 1999 "Winterfest" to be held at Gatlinburg, Tennessee, scheduled for February 19-21? The featured speaker is Jeff Walling. Some do not know what this man participates in and promotes. This past year (July 1-4, 1998) he was featured speaker at the Nashville Jubilee. At this event, outlandish and unscriptural things were practiced, all of which were done with his endorsement and encouragement. For example, there were women song leaders, a chorus which hummed during prayers and instrumental music. In his speeches he promoted the TV and radio program called "Crossview" which produces programs featuring denominational preachers. Obviously, he feels it is alright to promote denominational preachers. But we are not to bid God speed to such (see 2 John 9-11).
In his "sermons" he belittled the Lord's church, often having the audience in laughter. He was very dramatic. During one speech he stood over a pile of dirt with a shovel in his hand and then had a casket rolled onto the stage, supposedly to illustrate the death of Christ. He had a woman give a public testimony which turned out to be a sermon -- in violation of 1 Corinthians 14:34 and 1 Timothy 2:12-15. He cleverly promoted the direct operation of the Holy Spirit. In a charismatic tone he spoke of the need for Christians to get "out of control." Much hand clapping was heard indicating the people approved of this kind of entertainment.
He brought a number of small children onto the stage and used them to create a deplorable emotional scene. A woman sang an Amy Grant solo and was joined by the children in a crescendo with the accompaniment of instruments. There was much swaying, clapping and waving of hands.
Walling prayed several prayers that were really little more than sermons, during which a chorus hummed to give an emotional tone -- a practice long used by denominational churches. Parents need to know what their children can expect at "Winterfest." Things promoted by Walling is what one can expect at "Winterfest." Many do not know that "Winterfest" is not the work of a local church, but is the work of a corporation know as "The Winterfest Group" centered in Edmond, Oklahoma. These "fests" are held all over the country. Their primary aim is to make money! Sad to say, they are doing this at the expense of our children.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTE: According to this article, that was “Winterfest” 1999. Now, there is the “Winterfest” 2004. The “mini-calendar” of events for the MYG (Madison Youth Group) shows the “Winterfest” again is scheduled for February 20-22, 2004. [Donnie Cruz]
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This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.154.172.114 on Feb 1, 2004 1:41 PM
You amuse me. Their primary intent is to make money? Ha! They barely break even after expenses... You're just looking to pick a fight by using information you read probably read from some guy's website who said he heard it from a friend of his that was at Jubilee... It's just plain ridiculous. This does not elicit a response; I am merely making a statement. However, I'm sure Mr. Sublett won't hesitate to publish some hogwash about the endtime Babylonian whore somehow relating to the Winterfest group.
Why, then, not use some Godly people who have not been the BITTER ROOT of sowing discord and who are NOT ON THE DOLE or have something to sell. Beauty control would provide a free forum to clean the WAX off some of the faces. Keith has been the willing DRIVING AGENT to sowing discord at MADISON.
The church is filled with singing groups which could TEACH and ADMONISH without driving people into PANIC.
They all have something to TRAFFICK. Just like Jubilee which was a BOOK, CD AND BOOKING TRADE FAIR.
VOCAL BANDS and close-harmony A CAPPELLA (Ala Castrato) intends, using ORGANUM, to produce the IDENTICAL effect of musical instruments. No one knew how to SANG like that until after the invention of the organ.
CANTUS , u-s, m. [id.] , the production of melodious sound, a musical utterance or expression, EITHER with VOICE or instrument; hence, song, singing, playing, music
2. With instruments, a playing, music: in NERVORUM citharae, horribili stridebat tibia cantu,querulae
horribilis , e, adj. [horreo] , terrible, fearful, dreadful, horrible (freq. and class.).
7, magici, Haemoniis agitare cantibus umbras,
MAGICUS,superstitiones,vanitates, di magici, that were invoked by INCANTATONS (as Pluto, Hecate, Proserpine) but lingua, skilled in incantations, magicae resonant ubi Memnone chordae, mysterious,
When Paul said "don't get drunk with wine" (new wineskins?) he spoke of the same Dionysus cult which tried to get Jesus to BOW DOWN.
"From the Mari textswe know that the "muhhu-ecstatics" used MUSIC in their ritual, and there is a reference to "watered-down beer" which proves a situation in which ECSTASY was partly induced by alcohol.
It IS NOT POSSIBLE to TEACH one another with the inspired text when you are DRUNK ON WINE which ALWAYS (then and now) meant that MUSIC-INDUCED wine drinking made you full of BULL but not of the SPIRIT which is the WORDS of Christ the Spirit.
The women prophesiers of Paul's letters always, then and now, fall into a charismatic or sexual ENCHANTING MOOD when musical harmony and the VOODOO BEAT begins:
"Among the Oriental CULTS, that of Cybele strongly resembles the cult of Dionysus in this respect. Here, too, are the typically orgiastic instruments -- tambourines, cymbals, rattles, horns and flutes.
With or without instrument, these people are USED because they can induce the VOODOO CLAP into people and drive them into a form of SCHIZOPHRENIA which is a DESIRED GOAL in the Post Modern insanity.
"To their accompaniment the worshipers of Cybele,
in a state of ENTHUSIASM (enthus O mania) approaching madness, would untie, pull and SHAKE their HAIR and then lash themselves with whips. Sure! some even castrated themselves or were burned.
"Come follow me to the house of the Phrygian Cybele, to the grove of the Phrygian goddess!
"There sounds the CLANG OF CYMBALS, there ECHO the tambourines, [Sounding Brass and Tinkling Cymbals: the Wailing women were "tinkling brass" and Jesus CAST THEM OUT LIKE DUNG
..."there the Phrygian FLUTEST plays upon his deep-sounding TWISTED reed. [The JUDAS BAG carried the reeds of wind instruments]. Always pictured by homosexual musicians (straight or sober men would not).
"There the Maenads, adorned with ivy, toss their HEAD wildly. There they celebrate the holy rites to the sound of SHRILL SCREAMS. There the roving BAND pursues the GODDESS. There would we also hurry with quickening dance-step.[The Jewish Encyclopedia proves that modern "music" is shrill screaming or screeching: Cantus and Musica induces PANIC. The FEELING is PANIC to drive you TO THE BRINK and TRAFFICK the notion that it is SPIRIT]
"This rite was carried out in a fit of holy frenzy induced by the PHRYGIAN (Barbarian) manner of SINGING, as well as the rapturous music of the tambourine, the cymbal and the flute. (Quasten, p. 36).
....."At other times there was more or less complete constriction of the muscles, and the condition became almost CATALEPTIC.... Face and aspect were changed,and to all outward appearance the Ecstatic "became ANOTHER man."[Saul was PERVERTED into another man=not good]
..."In religious ecstasy, consciousness is entirely filled with the presence of God, with ideas and feelings belonging to the divine sphere. The soul is LIFTED up into the exalted region of DIVINE revelation, and the lower world with its sensations momentarily disappears.
Charismatic speakers can induce the same feeling: the ecstatic seeks to induce his state of rapture through "dramatic gestures, dance, music, alcohol, opium, hashish. Music produces endorphins or natural MORPHINE.
Judas was a SICCARI or DAGAR MAN. He was a FLUTE MAN and they were also known as Hashish men. The flute playing and singing males often performed as, and sounded like WOMEN. The male sophrano is the modern A Capella or Castrado singing. It comes as no suprise that OCU is featuring ART IN WORSHIP and dialog with the Crossroads, Boston or International Church of Christ because:
.."all agree in regarding the WOMEN as the chief founders of religion,
.......and it is the WOMEN who provoke the men to the more attentive worship of the gods, to FESTIVALS, and to supplications, and it is a rare thing for a man who lives by himself to be found addicted to these things.
That is what Amos said of the Sacred Cows of Bashan. Jesus repudiated RELIGION and came to build an EKKLESIA or "School of the Bible." When the professors go 'Post Biblical' and Post-Christendm age you know that the HOLY WHORE is in her death CLIMACTIC EXPERIENCE (Re: Carol Wimber, Vineyard, New Wineskins who PRETEND that the "spirit" they have invited in with MUSICA is a HOLY SPIRIT. But, Jesus said "My WORDS are SPIRIT and they are LIFE.")
That is why I say that WINTERFEST is still the MAD WOMEN'S MIDWINTER FESTIVAL. Or maybe they are MAD COWS.
Because people claim that the MUSICIANS "Lead them into the presence of God" we know that they have repudiated the MASCULINE Jesus identified by the Dove as the SON of a FATHER as opposed to the BABYLONIAN Daughter of a Mother Goddess, we know that NEW STYLE WORSHIP stems from the prophesied end-time HARLOT worship with MUSIC (See Rev 18:22):
...."The original word for the FAIRIES was "fay," a common euphemism for effeminate or gay. It is derived from the Latin "fata", the individual Fates of MEN personified as the supernatural power of WOMEN. "Fay" itself means both ENCHANTED and BEWITCHED. "Fay-erie" was used for both the state of enchantment and for an enchanted province. The FAIRIES, as part of the evolutionary scheme,
.....MEDIATED the realm of the "primitive" old brain to perceive the PARTICLES of nature, so to speak, and they personified it as the natural world of the FEMININE - thousands of years before neurologists began dissecting our minds.
Rubel Shelly says the OLD PARTICLES of the TEXT has been SHOT AWAY because there is now less CERTAINTY in the PHYSICAL WORLD. However, the Uncertainty Principle makes things like miracles and the virgin birth MORE REASONABLE.
"Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please them selves in the children of strangers (adulterous women). Isaiah 2:6
...Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made: Isaiah 2:8
I know that neither hairdressers NOR musicians are all homosexual. However, why present to our CHILDREN the IMAGE which has NO HISTORICAL CONTRADICTION in religious history?
On May 17, 2000, Jeff Walling, preacher for the Providence Road Church of Christ in Charlotte, North Carolina, appeared on the denominational program "Praise the Lord" which airs on Trinity Broadcast Network. Walling was the guest of Gary Oliver of Gary Oliver Ministries in Fort Worth, Texas. Other guests included a lady "pastor," a "Reverend" Tommy Tenney, and Jentezen Franklin ("pastor" for the Church of God). Instrumental music was used during the program.
The Bible clearly warns that we are not to have fellowship with those who teach error: "Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed: For he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds" (2 John 9-11). Contrary to what these verses teach, "Pastor Walling" (as he was called a number of times on the program) has demonstrated on several occasions his love for the fellowship of those who are in error.
Walling's appearance on this program should not surprise us, but it should cause us to speak out in righteous indignation because of the shame and reproach he brought on the precious body of Christ. He did this by fellowshipping those who teach and practice error and division. What is even worse is that parents and congregational leaders in the church all over the country will send their youth to hear Walling at Winterfest in Gatlinburg, Tennessee, or some other location. Church leaders, don't be surprised when later in life your young people join themselves to denominations. Don't mourn over such when it happens--because you encouraged them to go hear such men as Jeff Walling who support denominationalism! Preachers and elders who encourage their young people to go hear such false teachers will have the Lord Jesus Christ to answer to on the day of judgment (2 Cor. 5:10).
False teachers constitute a threat to the purity and unity of the Lord's church. They must be refuted and exposed--not supported and encouraged!
--P.O. Box 147, Ooltewah, TN 37363
Selected from The N.E. Tarrant
Church of Christ bulletin
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.154.172.114 on Feb 2, 2004 8:43 AM
The Winterfest Group, as they call themselves, has its headquarters at 14301 Middleberry Rd., Edmond, OK 73013. During the early winter of the new year they will sponsor two "Winterfests" -- one at Arlington, TX (January 19-21) and one at Gatlinburg, TN (February 16-18). Just a few clicks of your mouse on their website (www.winterfest.org) will enable you to see that denominational music groups and false teachers from within the church are being used to desensitize our youth against instruments of music in Christian worship and other compromises with denominationalism.
One of the groups that is featured in Arlington is called, The Phalanges. This is a percussion band that uses "junk" to pour out a religious beat. As one admirer wrote, "Their instruments and sets may be discarded junk to some but in their hands these pieces of wood, metal and plastic can sing" (Sarah Vangier, St. Louis Post Dispatch). Another quote on their internet site is from one Greg Dolezal: "...it's great to see someone taking the stage in the name of Jesus." In their "History" they write, "Our first performances were in our respective churches." Another quote, "some kids in my youth group...were totally turned on to Christianity because...they saw you play." Beloved, is this what you want your son or daughter to learn -- that it is okay to use denominational "percussion bands" to play religious music to convert young people? Convert them to what? Some will say, "Oh, it wasn't a worship service." Then what is the purpose of calling on God and the name of Jesus in such band productions? Are such just vain uses of the names of the Father and the Son? Is not such use in violation of Exodus 20:7?
Jeff Walling of the Providence Road church in Charlotte, NC is on the program at both locations. This brother has for years been trying to convince our young people that instruments in Christian worship are just "a matter of opinion...a gray area." This he did during a panel discussion at the young people's meeting at the Andover Road Church of Christ in Andover, KS in 1981 (See Bulletin Briefs, May 1998, PO Box 123, Dunlap, TN 37327). He has continued to advocate such through the years. See Goebel Music's Behold the Pattern, 5114 Montclair, Colleyville, TX. In January, 1999, brother Jon Gary Williams of LaVergne, TN (near Nashville) documented how Walling had spoken at the 1998 Jubilee and "belittled the Lord's church. Often having the audience in laughter." Williams continued, "He had a woman give a public testimony which turned into a sermon -- in clear violation of 1 Corinthians 14:34 and 1 Timothy 2:12-15. He cleverly promoted the direct operation of the Holy Spirit" (See Bulletin Briefs, January 1999).
Other speakers on the Winterfest programs include Jimmy Sites (who preached for the Madison, TN church until last month), Patrick Mead, Jerome Williams and Greg Anderson, who preaches for the Western Hills Church near Nashville and is one of the officers of the Winterfest Corporation. When I wrote last January that Winterfest was a "money making operation" one of the officers asked me why I had written that. I replied, "because you charge for the sideshows" (they call them concerts). That officer replied, "we charge for everything." And they do, as I learned from their website. It costs $18 for the general registration. Thirty-two dollars pays for registration, the concerts and a T-shirt. So if 1000 attend, the corporation has $32,000 to provide for itself and costs. The guests provide their own lodging and food.
The Winterfest Group is not the church or any part of the church. It is a commercial corporation that is in business to sell compromise in the form of religion to our young people. Elders who have youth ministers who want to take their young people to such should remember that the church's overseers have the obligation to stop the mouths of those who "subvert whole households teaching things which they ought not for the sake of dishonest gain" (Titus 1:11).
P.O. Box 123
Dunlap, TN 37327
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.154.172.114 on Feb 6, 2004 10:49 AM
Years ago youth rallies among churches of Christ were common, but over time many congregations became leery of what had once been joyous occasions because of several changes in them—particularly with the caliber of men that were often invited to speak. Although it is not true across the board, many of those men possessed much more knowledge in the field of entertainment than they did with the Scriptures. One confused individual actually praised Rehoboam’s young advisors, whose errant judgment precipitated the departure of ten tribes from the nation of Israel. Although the Scriptures communicate to us some excellent examples of youth, those counselors should not be on anyone’s list.
Jeff Walling has become one of the most popular speakers across this nation, and he is once again on the program to speak at Winterfest in Gatlinburg, Tennessee. According to the tentative schedule, he will speak Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Jeff’s view of fellowship is similar to Max Lucado’s. Immediately, then we know that this program is not concerned that young people be taught the Truth.
This year, however, a person unknown to most of us is also scheduled to stand before youthful Christians on Friday and Saturday evenings at this annual event. His name is Bob Stromberg, and he is a very talented man. He studied two years with Tony Montenaro at Celebration Mime Theatre in Maine. According to a Web site: “In 1989 he began full time Christian ministry, performing his personal style of storytelling, original music and comedy around North America.” He has written two books and “continues to tour extensively as a featured entertainer and communicator.” In 1996 he and two other talented entertainers opened a show called Triple Espresso, which has been highly successful, playing around the country (see www.tripleespresso.com). Bob Stromberg is also associated with The Evangelical Covenant Church (see www.covchurch.org).
This Web site contains an article by Craig Pinley about Stromberg, and it looks as though his message to young people is excellent—as far as it goes. Below a portion of Pinley’s review:
How does one find abundant life in the midst of a sinful world? Stromberg offered young people three one-word nuggets to help them discover abundant life in Christ: Remember, Resist and Rejoice. Touching briefly on the stories of Old and New Testament characters, Stromberg re-minded students to remember “the Bible is the story of God’s faithfulness to his people.”
After discussing from Ephesians 6:12 that Christians must fight very real battles against sin and that Satan stands ready to devour us, he encourages young people to practice resistance. His comments on this point are interesting:
“Other times this resistance won’t work—that is the beginning of addictive behavior.”
“What enslaves you, if you are feeling this way is not the sin…? The power is in the secret…you let that secret out and that power over you starts to crumble.”
Presumably, one “lets that secret out” to a professional rather than someone who may compound the problem. A fourth r in Stromberg’s list might be repent when a person falls short.
Granted that Stromberg is vastly talented and that he may impart some important spiritual truths to young people, the question still remains, “Why was he invited to address ‘our’ young people?” Will he exhort them, at the end of his message, to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins? Could we not find a faithful brother to teach our young people on this subject?
Of course, it could be the case that “faithful” brethren might not want to speak on the same platform as Jeff Walling. It may also be that those who plan this annual event are not themselves concerned about the truth regarding salvation, which brings us back to our thesis—that many of those in charge of youth activities have no regard for the authority of the Scriptures. Too often they appeal more to the carnal side of young people than to their spiritual nature.
For example, when adults attend lectureships or workshops, they consider their time worthwhile if, when they return, they have added to their knowledge, been appropriately challenged, or have grown spiritually. What do young people talk about when they return from some of the “activities” scheduled for them? Do words like the following sound familiar? “Ooh, Mom, it was so cool, let me tell you what we did,” which is followed by a description of some inane activity, such as the youths tossing eggs to each other without trying to break them. “Oh, you should have heard the speaker talk about the time he threw up in the third grade; it was so funny!” When asked what the spiritual message was, parents are often greeted with a blank stare. “Oh, I don’t know. I can’t remember everything.”
The point is not that entertainment is wrong, but there ought to be more than a token emphasis given to spiritual matters. Young people have marvelous minds capable of learning much more than they are often given credit for (2 Tim. 3:15). When one considers all of the youth events hosted for young people all over the country, one wonders, “Why aren’t these activities producing more spiritually strong young people? Why have not more young men aspired to be song leaders, elders, or preachers? Why haven’t some of the young ladies been motivated to dress less like Britney Spears and more according to Biblical standards of modesty? Why haven’t young people (with rare exceptions) read the Bible, or even the New Testament, all the way through? At the age of twelve Jesus was confounding the doctors of the law in the temple. Although we have some young people who are video game experts, computer wizards, skateboarding or swimming champions, how many excel in Biblical knowledge? Why do parents insist that their children conquer academics or sports but are content with spiritual mediocrity?
Elders and other church leaders ought to be seeking ways to develop our young people spiritually and not be content with activities, which are oftentimes not even Scriptural. Do parents know, for example, about the hand-clapping at some of the CYF meetings? No more Biblical authority exists to add the clapping of hands to the singing and making melody in the heart than to add finger-snapping, humming, foot-stomping, whistling, vocal sounds, drums, or other musical instruments (Col. 3:17). Emphasis upon the physical, emotionalism, and entertainment will not lead young people to become stronger Christians. Studying, singing, praying, and practical classes on evangelism would accomplish much more toward creating the next generation of spiritually strong young adults.
*Send comments or questions concerning this article to Gary Summers. Please refer to this article as: "Whatever the article name from above is (12/14/03)."
An Open Letter to All Churches of Christ of Southern California
June 22 2004, 3:07 AM
Source: Bible Infonet
______________________
An Open Letter to All Churches of Christ of Southern California
I was shocked and dismayed this last week to attend a Youth Program at one of our churches - on a Sunday morning at the 9:30 a.m. assembly in the auditorium. The speaker, in his presentation, presented four tape recordings of a full orchestrated band with all instruments. I could not believe my ears; there were guitars, drums, pianos, horns and string instruments of every nature. If it is OK to play a prerecorded tape, wouldn't it be just the same to have the full band play live?
When I approached the director of the program I was told that this was a class, as communion was not being served until 10:30 a.m., and I was also told that the Greek words for "music" were "not clear. " I was told by an elder of that congregation that their eldership was not aware that instrumental music would be played in the auditorium that morning.
Brethren, I have a concern that well over 250 young people were badly misled that morning. Is it right for youth ministers, guest speakers, elders or others to introduce instrumental music of this magnitude in worship services among churches of Christ? Should the other churches at least have been told that this was going to happen? I have a great concern over what impression was made on the young people attending this Youth Program. I also have a concern if an eldership is not told about something as serious as this.
Are we being stumbling blocks for our young people? Why was this done in a secretive way without the eldership being informed? Why were the visiting congregations of Southern California, who sent their young people to this program, not told that this would be done? This didn't happen by accident. "We understand your concern and we will bring it up in our evaluation meeting afterwards," is skirting the issue.
It was only a few years ago that another congregation at a Youth Program was going to take the Lord's Supper on Saturday night. What will happen next? Is this what change is all about?
Let us prayerfully consider the actions that we take that are going to impact the soul salvation of all our young Christian brothers and sisters. Let us pray that we strive to be true to God's Word. Let us strive to live in harmony and in peace, but not peace at any price. Whatever happened to, "We speak where the Bible speaks and we are silent where the Bible is silent"?
Re: An Open Letter to All Churches of Christ of Southern California
March 28 2005, 1:10 PM
According to the tentative schedule, he will speak Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Jeff’s view of fellowship is similar to Max Lucado’s. Immediately, then we know that this program is not concerned that young people be taught the Truth.
Reply:
And just what is the truth? I'll tell you what it is, anything the coC says it is! I went to the coC for 25 years. I must tell you, you folks are officialy nuts!! The coC is now, in my opinion, a cult every bit as bad as the JWs. You might as well open a kingdom hall for the coC and march arm in arm off a clift! You of the "only ones going to heaven because we do it right" crowd make me want to puke!
Print this if you can. I see that this sight is so moderated by the "brethern" that dissenting opinion is treated like Pravda would treat it in the old soviet union!
Did I ever show you any of my etching. Here is one which pictures the universal IMAGE of theatrical performers. Judas was one of these guys because his JUDAS BAG was for "carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments" and Psalm 41 predicts that he will try to TRIUMPH over Jesus which means "playing instruments and making a joyful noise before the lord." That may be why CLAP includes the CONCEPT of puking from the choral dance the perverted clergy tried to induce into Jesus.
This speaks of the KOMOS or comedy and your guys are great STAND UP comics even if they have to MOCK Jesus and His Word.
Those guys who made you VOMIT in the old church are the same ones who do a GENDER BEND on you for a bigger price.
Well, it does stagger the mind to think that someone, who supposedly follows Him Who directed us to love our neighbor as ourselves, could ironically manifest such unspeakably vicious hatred toward those with whom he disagrees. And that brings up an interesting story.
Many years ago in the 20th century, my grandfather related the true story of two local Church of Christ elders who argued with each other over the death penalty at a Wednesday night service. Although the arguments included the need for love and compassion toward those guilty of capital crimes, the arguments became so heated that one elder challenged the other to “step outside” so they could settle the matter more appropriately; that is, with a fist fight. All thoughts of “love thy neighbor” had vanished there as well in preference for bitter hatred.
Therefore, we extend sorrow and pity to those troubled souls whose life's joy is hating us and others for whatever reasons, and we earnestly hope that they will repent. Meanwhile, we recommend that their highly graphic messages, such as the one above, be consigned to an abode far beyond the Viper’s Den—a truly fitting abode that would fully and completely imprison their putrid acrimony: a toxic waste dump readily comes to mind.
Meanwhile, we recommend that their highly graphic messages, such as the one above, be consigned to an abode far beyond the Viper’s Den—a truly fitting abode that would fully and completely imprison their putrid acrimony: a toxic waste dump readily comes to mind.
Reply: You arrogant coc pharasee! Lets dont listen to any dissent! Lets dont think a bit using our God given brains. Lets just follow what we have had pounded in our heads for years by the coc! Lets let old crazy Ken keep posting his junk and treat it as gospel and beautiful literature!
I need to repent of nothing!!!! Just becuase i, or any other person, left the coc does not mean we are not a christians. Thats whats wrong, once again,with the coc (i.e.We are the only ones going to heaven, the rest are heathens condemed to eternal hell).
Well, there's mature "dissent," and then there's just plain old hateful "vent." Let's see: according to you, the Church of Christ are arrogant Pharisees, a cult, nuts, nauseating, just like Soviets, and infested with pox; we're to be detested because we are very sure of our beliefs, and finally we should fall off a cliff. (I really hope our more discerning readers can differentiate between mature dissenting and hateful venting.) For your future posts, you might want to work in the following overused compliments which change agents most commonly bestow upon us: "judgmental, unkind, unloving, gossips, slanderers, divisive, troublemakers, hypocrites," and the granddaddy of them all, "religious pornographers!" Just want you to be as consistent as possible in your messages.
Now I'm going to repay your obviously mean-spirited, impenitent, resentful attitude with good. I'm going to pray for you, Kent S. You evidently despise the Church of Christ most severely, and it's eating at you like a cancer, whether you will admit it or not. You seem to resent any who are very sure of their salvation, as those in the Church of Christ are. But since you think the Church of Christ is completely wrong, I'm surprised that you would not pray for us. I could be wrong, but from your most recent, vehement messages, I just didn't get the impression that you ever had the desire to pray for us. But I will pray for you, Kent, that your bitter hatred against us will dissipate. A Christ-like mind rejoices not in inquity but in the truth (1 Cor. 13:6 KJV).
I noticed in your response to the "hateful venter" the following verbage:
"You seem to resent any who are very sure of their salvation, as those in the Church of Christ are."
Are you speaking for the cofC as the body of Christ? The body that has accepted Christ like we read about in the Word? Or are you just speaking for yourself as one in the church of Christ?
Could you see if that is the mainline belief among the group you fellowship with? It sort of sounds like OSAS to me. Not that there is anything wrong with OSAS!
looking forward to your answer...
chuck
ps...still didn't get a response to my question of you in the Schaivo thread.
but tell me sir, do you believe that only the people who follow the coc are going to heaven? Are all catholics condemed, how bout methodists, baptists, presbyterians, etc???
But i forgot, its not coc doctrine, it's christ's and God's doctrine the coc follows!
See, you folks think you have it all firgured out. Ok, fine, worship the way you like. But to condenm others who worship in a different way, please!!
Thats why i left you hypocrits never to return. Am i also to asume you think im lost since i attend a catholic church now? Most likely!
The Gospels record several instances in which the Pharisees tempted Jesus with questions, hoping to trap Him with His words. But Jesus always provided answers that, to some, would seem ambiguous or evasive; but to the discerning, His answers were the pure truth. A typical example is His answer given when asked about paying taxes to Caesar (Matt. 22:15-22, this and all succeeding verses KJV): Render unto Caesar his things and unto God His things (although Jesus well knew that ALL things belong to God in the final analysis).
And so it is when change agents or other detractors of the traditional Church of Christ come to this web site and ask over and over again if the Catholics and members of the Protestant denominations are going to Heaven. They not only mock the confidence that the traditional Church of Christ manifests about its salvation, they also mock us with demands that we speculate upon the eternity of other faiths. So with temptation as their motive, they crouch with Matt. 7:1-2 hidden up their sleeves, itching to spring.
It’s perhaps easier to ask, “Who will decide who is going to heaven?” for the answer is obvious: God will be the final Judge, and anyone who says otherwise violates Matt. 7:1-2. Is it then more difficult to ask, “Who IS going to heaven?” Why not turn to the ONE source that has the definitive answer—the New Testament? Why not the Old Testament? Gal. 5:3-4 explains why not. You have a Bible—read.
First of all, Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). This means that, since the advent of the Christian dispensation, no person who has ever walked, or who ever will walk, on this earth can be saved (go to Heaven) from ANY faith (Christian or non-Christian) unless he first believes on Jesus, and Jesus only, as Lord. For those who do not believe this basic premise that Christ created, there’s nothing more to be said.
For Christians, belief is not enough; there must also be obedience, as the Scriptures also stipulate. Jesus ordered for His followers to observe all things whatsoever He had commanded them (Matt. 28:20) and that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments (John 14:15). If all we needed to do was just “believe” and do nothing else, why did Jesus make a big issue over obedience to everything that He had commanded? Why would nearly a third of His 50 recorded parables be devoted specifically to obedience? All that Jesus directly commanded, or commanded through the inspired Apostolic writings, is recorded in the entire New Testament, and it is the New Testament that is the “gold standard” by which all Christian “faiths” eventually will be judged, for the New Testament is the very Word of God. This Word is to be followed without ever adding anything to it, without ever diminishing anything from it, as the Scriptures also stipulate (Rev. 22:18-19).
Therefore, each Christian “faith” must examine itself, its creed, and its doctrine most closely and determine if it measures completely up to New Testament standards—not occasionally, not sometimes, not here and there—but in “all things.” Not all Christian faiths live up to New Testament standards. For example, if there are women pastors or homosexual pastors, confirm whether the New Testament authorizes them or not. Likewise, if baptism is by sprinkling or pouring instead of by immersion; if infant “christening” is practiced as the sole form of “baptism”; if baptism is not considered essential for salvation; if the roles of elders or deacons have been eliminated; if the Virgin Mary is venerated or deified as holy and able to answer our prayers; if the Pope is considered the vicar of Christ; if human priests serve as intermediaries between man and Christ; if priests have the power to absolve sins; if there is belief in Purgatory and Limbo; if divorce and remarriage are readily acceptable for any cause; if all portions of the Word are not considered of equal merit and importance; if practices are implemented in worship which closely mimic worldly practices or which are clearly designed to make worship more entertaining, culture-relevant, and acceptable rather than reverent and holy; if a new practice is under consideration for implementation in worship; therefore, for “all things,” confirm whether the New Testament specifically authorizes them or not, either by specific command or by direct implication by the Word. The list could go on and on.
Which act follows the Word more closely—to second-guess the Scriptures and implement into worship anything and everything not specifically forbidden therein, or to implement only that which is specifically authorized and commanded therein? Is it not more obedient to take the Scriptures at face value, trust them to be a true Guide, and not deviate from them in any way whatsoever? Neither Jesus nor the Apostles gave Christians any authority to go beyond that which is specifically authorized and commanded in the Word. This is not “legalism”; this is simple obedience to God’s Word.
So who is going to heaven? Those who believe that Jesus is Lord, who forsake the world, and who do the will of the Father according to His Word (1 John 2:15-17).
Some day, I just might write a book entitled, “101 Excuses for Bucking the Word of God: The Mindset of the Change Movement.” Some of those excuses would include:
“We have freedom in Christ to do as we please.”
“Our love—not our doctrinal beliefs—is our greatest witness to the world.”
“The New Testament was written by a bunch of dead people; it’s too old to be relevant today.”
Among the top 20 excuses would be, “Only the arrogant and narrow-minded think they have everything figured out.” The latter also serves as an accusation which change agents and other detractors of the traditional Church of Christ hurl against us, because we maintain a strong confidence in our salvation. And we have such a confidence for a very good, specific reason: we believe that we follow the Word of God as laid out in the New Testament. In short, we have faith that we have “everything figured out,” because we rely on the Word.
Those who scoff at the idea of having “everything figured out” either have no confidence that the Word was, is, and always will be, the one-and-only key to salvation, or they don’t really believe that the Word is a divinely inspired document, or they maintain that the Word is subject to too many different interpretations to know what is or is not the truth. According to the New Testament, Christ didn’t seem to have much trouble “interpreting” His Father’s will when He laid it all out for us. For example, according to Mark 16:16, Jesus specified that those who believe and are baptized will be saved; those who don’t believe will be damned. Pretty cut and dry. Shouldn’t be any problems with “interpretation” there: Belief and baptism are essential for salvation. Yet change agents come along and say, “No, that’s not what Jesus really means. Baptism is not essential for salvation, because Jesus omits ‘baptism’ from the second half of the verse.” They completely ignore the first half of the verse, which definitively links belief AND baptism with salvation. We’ve discussed this particular issue time and time again in other forums. This illustrates that problems with interpretation come, not from the Word itself, but from hardened minds that are unreceptive to the Word, from biased attitudes that are unwilling to take the Word exactly at face value and let it speak directly to us, and from selfish souls who lift up their own personal preferences over biblical principles.
Why continue to wander around in a fog of disbelief or rebellion? Why resent anyone who strongly believes that by trusting and obeying the Word, they have “everything all figured out”? Any person can have it “all figured out” as well, if he/she will but yield completely to Jesus and His Word in all things, letting Him take over as the Sole Authority in your life. Is it not safer to take steps now to have “everything all figured out,” before you take your last breath in life?
Re: APOSTATE: JEFF WALLING—Should Youth Go to Winterfest?
January 22 2012, 1:50 AM
It's about this time of the year. And I think it has already started. First, I did a search online to obtain info on Fred Whaley's favorite place of worship with instrumental music, the band, the concert performers. Wow!!! I didn't realize the popularity of the events with the similar name
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This is a "Charismatic Worship Event" IMITATION!!!!
Which activities did you enjoy the most? The speeches? Musical group performances? Devotionals? "Worship services" with Jeff Walling ... possibly with instrumental music while he was away from his non-IM home congregation?
Rick Atchley boasts about taking the youth to such an even so they could listen to all of the "christian" instrument music. We warned and he finally confessed "We taught them to leaven our movement."
They are totally ignorant that they have been abandoned to what God sentenced Israel after they engaged in musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. This was BEYOND REDEMPTION. The other folly is that they are in the advice to Cyrus recorded in Heredotus about how to NEUTER the captured enemy. Make them into singers and instrument players and you will soon see them turned into women.
It is impossible to understand that God turned the Israelites over to worship the starry host BECAUSE of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.
Christ Who made the spiritual covenant with Abraham protected the godly people FROM Richland's patternism of Babylonianism.
The Church of Christ the Rock which the musical patternists continued throughout the Old Testament.
Part of the worship of all pagan worship or sacrificial systems was using MEN to perform the roles of Women (AS in David's naked dance."
Any Bible student would be able to follow the golden thread of those OF TRUTH or OF FAITH and mark and avoid the NACCs use of infiltrating agents just by defining words. They WILL NOT do that and music in the sacrificial system intended to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter" and is defined as DEVIL worship. The way to MARK the sons of the devil is that "they speak on their own.
Here is one such WORDS not available to your preacher or his once-Christian scholarly fellow travellers.
If your preacher claims the right to mediate in song and sermon that is the patternism they are copying;
2Chr. 11:15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.
2 Chronicles 11.15 qui constituit sibi sacerdotes excelsorum et daemonum vitulorumque quos fecerat
The SACERDOS speaks ONLY of pagan gods such as Apollo (Abaddon, Apollyon), RHEA or Zoe the mother of the gods now worshipped openly.. However, the ONLY good sense is
MOST preachers and ALL professional musicians CLAIM to mediate worship between the "audience"and God. In this they blaspheme:
1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Daimonios possessed by a "god": II from Hdt. and Pi. downwds. (Trag. in lyr.), heaven-sent, miraculous, marvellous, blax Pi.P.4.37; teras B.15.35, S.Ant.376;
Plat. Sym. 202e Well what?
As I previously suggested, between a mortal and an immortal.
And what is that, Diotima?
A great spirit, Socrates: for the whole of the spiritual is between divine and mortal.
Possessing what power? I asked.
Interpreting and transporting human things to the gods and divine things to men;
entreaties and sacrifices from below,
and ordinances and requitals from above:
being midway between, it makes each to supplement the other, so that the whole is combined in one.
Through it are conveyed all divination [mantik] and priestcraft concerning sacrifice and ritual
Daimones and to daimonion represent the mysterious agencies and influences by which the gods communicate with mortals.
All of the Bible and recorded history says that when you rise up (AGAINST GOD) in rhetoric or musical idolatry you have blasphemed the Spirit of Christ in the prophets and the historic church in the wilderness.
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Feb 15, 2013 12:21 AM
There's no question that Jeff Walling is one of the most prominent change agents in the brotherhood.
Just refer to an earlier article (by Waldron) posted above: WINTERFEST CORPORATION AND JEFF WALLING
This para-church organization is no part of the church, but they annually feature their "Fallfest" or "Winterfest" programs to draw the youth of the church into their web of deceit. Just a few clicks of your mouse will reveal much about how this group which not only uses sectarians as a part of their program but features "contemporary Christian" performers using instrumental music with songs of praise and worship.
Jeff Walling will also be featured on the "Winterfest" 2000 at Gatlinburg in February. This brother over the last two decades has done as much as anyone to persuade the youth of the church of Christ that instrumental music in worship is "a matter of opinion...a gray area" (See Bulletin Briefs, May 1998 and Behold the Pattern, Goebel Music, 5114 Montclair, Colleyville, TX 76034, pp. 198-223). In many other ways, Walling continues to seek to change the church of our Lord into a carbon copy of protestant denominationalism. As evidence of this please note the following: In the Woodmont Hills Newsletter of September 29, 1999 (See www.woodmont.org), Rubel Shelly announced that he was going to be a "General Committee Member" on behalf of the June 2000 Billy Graham Crusade in Nashville. About one month later Walling announced (Providence Road Bulletin, Vol. XXVI, No. 21, Oct. 26, 1999) that Shelly would be their guest speaker for the Providence Road church for both services on November 7. Here is clear evidence that these two brothers are working together to restructure the church of Christ. In plain language their work with each other and the support for Billy Graham is such evidence. If not, why not?
So, that was in 2000. Winterfest still exists. Yes, I did ask Fred. What about you, Dave. Did you go to Jeff's Winterfest?
Acts 13
22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.
23 From this mans descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.
1 Chronicles 29
26 David son of Jesse was king over all Israel. 27 He ruled over Israel forty yearsseven in Hebron and thirty-three in Jerusalem. 28 He died at a good old age, having enjoyed long life, wealth and honor. His son Solomon succeeded him as king.
1 Chronicles 1
4 David and all the Israelites marched to Jerusalem (that is, Jebus). The Jebusites who lived there 5 said to David, You will not get in here. Nevertheless, David captured the fortress of Zionwhich is the City of David.
6 David had said, Whoever leads the attack on the Jebusites will become commander-in-chief. Joab son of Zeruiah went up first, and so he received the command. 7 David then took up residence in the fortress, and so it was called the City of David. 8 He built up the city around it, from the terraces to the surrounding wall, while Joab restored the rest of the city. 9 And David became more and more powerful, because the LORD Almighty was with him.
"It's not as bad as you think it is." The serpent also convinced Eve that the consequences of eating the "forbidden fruit" would not be as bad God said they would be.
The greatest trick Satan has ever pulled has been to convince the world that he doesn't exist.
The greatest trick the change agents have ever pulled has been to convince the world that mixing worldly culture and practices with worship and praise "isn't so bad."
Change agents? News flash, Jesus Christ was a change agent! And thanks be to God that He was! Otherwise we'd all still be living under the Law of Moses. A law that many in the church seem to be trying to bring us back under, just like the Pharisees did. Please please please STOP this infighting within the brotherhood. If you wanna use scripture I'll give you one. Meditate on it please, because it is what Jesus prayed for. UNITY & LOVE (John 17). Or how about this one, A house divided against itself will not stand. (Matt. 12:25) Stop the infighting! Enough already!
There is no INfighting: men like Rick Atchley boast that they took the youth to the musical retreat to "help them leave our movement." There is no relationship between a Church of Christ and a "theater for holy entertainment."
Jesus warned that he did not pray for the WORLD and the changelings-hirelings promote "being as much like the world as possible to win the world."
If would be nice if the people who "infiltrate and divert" could silence those whoo cry thief. Sorry bout that.
If they do not speak according to the Word "there is no light in them" says the Spirit OF christ. So, the brotherhood ceases when people speak their own silly songs and sermons which often repudiate the Word of Christ.
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Feb 15, 2013 12:12 AM
"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple" (Romans 16:17-18 KJV).
The change agents today are NOTHING like what Jesus was. Jesus came according to God's plan to supplant the Law of Moses with the spirit of the Law of Christ, the New Covenant. Do not ever liken Jesus to a "change agent," because the change agents of today only want to "retool" and "restructure" the Church that Christ established and turn it into one of the hundreds of other denominations of man's design. There is NOTHING in the New Testament that states the Church must be "changed" again. That is the raving of rebellious men who despise Christ's TRUE church.
Lectio divina is a 4 step catholic practice and prayer concept that will bear watching at any youth group meeting or assembly. It may be called contemplative prayer or some other seeming innocent term. What it amounts to is mystical search for "truth" outside the Bible. We all know to contemplate the scriptures is not a bad idea at all. But to repeat a mantra over and over until one is in a trance like state is vain. One seeks the truth of God through the absolute truth of the scriptures and the other seeks to use ones own imagination and emotions as the guide in life. Some of the authors that promote this idea are Richard J Foster and Dan Kimball. Another of its leading proponents was Thomas Merton. If you hear these names being bounced around you know where they are headed.
The internet has much about lectio divina on it with the comment on one web site that this is only guidance there are no strict directions on how to do it. Kinda loose and hard to pin down.
Teaching others to seek personal revelation or a spiritual experience outside the scriptures is falsehood. The new testament is filled with directions that we are to know Gods will and apply to our everyday lives. Paul told timothy that we have everything we need to live a Godly life in the scriptures.
Consider that christians read books found in bookstores which promote or pay respect to these ideas.
Any of these winterfest or like youth gatherings should be reviewed and be forced to provide a complete written agenda and detailed description of all events including who the leaders are and what church they come form.
This is the Lipscomb strong delusions because they certainly have no Biblical scholarship: Lying Wonders is the outbreak of musical and theatrical performance to, in the words of Rick Atchly, teach the youth to LEAVE OUR MOVEMENT.
Sounds like witchcraft: ACU and LU are presently into trying to grow out of your own imagination which God says is "only evil continually."
Because the spirit is the mind, God gave it the supernatural gifts of the senses. And because Jesus said my WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFT, Paul said that we GROW by feeding on the Word which IS Spirit.
I wonder why people waged by a church would have any interest in neo-paganism or Wicca which Lynn Anderson promotes so wonderfully at LU and ACU?
Arnobius who has so much to say against music as SORCERY in agreement with John 18
He also said: But you will, perhaps, say that the gods are not artificers, nay, that under their care all things have been placed, which we manage and conduct." (Arnobius Against the Heathen, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 470).
The soothsayers receive their knowledge of their art from the Phythian god, and why does he so often give and affort answeres equivocal, doubtful, dteeped in darkness and obscurity." (Arnibious, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 470)
Remember, that Paul repudiates this common practice by casting out the DIVINING SPIRIT frome the young girl. Even speaking truth by an EVIL SPIRIT was not approved.
But it is only poets whom you have thought proper to allow to invent unseemly tales about the gods, and to turn them shamefully into sport?
....What do your pantomimists, the actors, that crowd of mimics and adulterers?
....Do they not abuse your gods ....to make themselves gain, ....and do not the others find enticing, pleasures in the wrongs and insults offered to the gods?
Are the public games, too, the colleges of all the priests and magistrates take their place, the chief Pontiffs, and the chief priests of the curiae... crowned with wreaths of laurel, the flamines diales with their mitres;
....the augurs take their place, who disclose the divine mind and will;
....and chaste maidens also, who cherish and guard the ever-burning place."
Arnobius, further
"Mocking the belief that Mellonia introduces herself into the entrails, or Limentinus, and that they set themselves to make known what you seek to learn, Arnobius asks--
May it not happen, may it not come to pass,
....although you craftily conceal it, ....that the one should take the other's place, deluding, mocking, deceiving, ....and presenting the appearance of the deity invoked?
If the magi, who are so much akin to soothsayers, relate that, in their incantations,
....pretend gods steal in frequently instead of those invoked; that some of these, moreover,
....are spirits of grosser substance, ....who pretend that they are gods,
....and delude the ignorant by their lies and deceit."
....(Arnobius Against the Heathen, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 479).
The overwhelming evidence is that music and the other outlawed creation of mental excitement by the use of rituals is something that can fool only the ignorant and lower classes.
There is nothing that any human can do to nourish the SPIRIT but feed it on the Word of God which IS Spirit and Life. Just because the once-Christian colleges have fallen into something bordering on witchcraft you should not endorse anyone seeking to follow the misleaders.
Randy Harris, Gary Holloway and Rhonda Lowery
Growing Deeper: A look at contemplative Spirituality.
Harris said. This is aimed at students, not the guests. Ive done a number of things related to the topic, Harris said. Hes spent time at a Trappist monastery, a Buddhist retreat, a Celtic retreat house and a hermit community for 40 days of silent prayer.
Were in a world where everyone is looking for religious experience, Harris said. Monks and hermits are people who seem to know about that thats why Ive gone to check em out. . . . Though he studies mysticism, Harris said his education on the subject includes learning through experience. Ive done a whole lot of reading about it,
but you get to a point where you dont want to read about it, Harris said. Ive really been on a search and kinda decided I would go any place in the world to try and learn from people who know about meditation or contemplative prayer or who were practicing a mystical tradition.
Lipscomb University Preaching 2008 From Denominational Imagination!
This conference proposes that WE allow the worlds imagined
....in the essential biblical narratives
....to dramatically shape our preaching and lives.
We believe that preaching reconstitutes biblical paradigms when it engages Scriptures vision
....1. by representing what is absent
.... 2. and making present what is inaccessible
.... 3. to the end that followers of God will live into a God-shaped reality.
Whoa! Far gone, don't go there or be LED into this witchery
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.66.207 on Mar 2, 2012 11:14 AM
More authors who favor and promote lectio divina - contemplative prayer
Ruth Haley Barton uses in one of her publications the passage of I Kings 19:9-13 to justify contemplative prayer and offers various descriptive narratives.
Tilden Edwards, Henry Nouwen and Brennan Manning favor the idea
Then there is the Youth Ministry Spirituality Project funded by the Eli Lilly organization advertising all over its web site about contemplative this and that. They produce and distribute Training seminars, conventions, videos, magazines, other resource products.
Persons who go these places may well bring the poison back to Gods elect.
It is a fact that most people in the "business" have no respect for God or His Word: why should you when Max Lucado got a vision, Rick Atchley had the Spirit tell him to preach all of those lies and Rubel Shelly said we should hear the "audible" voice of God. No telling what people will do when God turns delusions on them to make them fools.
If you can "hear" God without God speaking audibly to you--however whisperery-- you should have not trouble feeding all of the poor and raising the dead.
1Kings 17:20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
1Kings 17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this childs soul come into him again.
1Kings 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
1Kings 17:23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.
1Kings 17:24 And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.
Note the reference to the book by Richard Foster "Celebration of Discipline, the Path to Spiritual Growth" is mentioned as a guide for the 12 Disciplines of Christianity. This is on page 20 in connection with some paintings used at the winterfest. The article goes on to say that the 12 disciplines were focused on by the speakers and that other references are made to the book also. Richard Foster is considered a mystic and a heretic of the first order by many - he is also a promoter of Thomas Merton.
I quizzed my granddaughter who went to winterfest: I think most who attend do so for the entertainment value. She was upset because there waa no "spiritual content."
Here is the Christian way to grow.
1Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
Ken Sublett said "I quizzed my granddaughter who went to winterfest: I think most who attend do so for the entertainment value."
You think????
Listen to this....
Its a powerful experience seeing 6,000 teens just opening up and praising God together, said Forrest Park, 15, a member of the Nashua Church of Christ in New Hampshire. Also, the speakers are just phenomenal with such wisdom and knowledge that one can really learn from.
Ken, does that sound like someone attending Winterfest for the entertainment value? That was a quote from a teen from this year's program.
Even if you had seen that before you still would have said what you did. You just don't care anymore. Your heart is beyond cold and callous. John W. Smith....stick around and believe me, you will be on that same wicked path.
Opening up and praising God sounds like my experiences around the old rugged tower of Babel. We had to bring all of our product to the tower and they handed out new raw materials or assignment. They told us that if we went to the top where the collection plates and god's agent lived we would meet gods and angels climbing up and down as we did our praise services.
Praise means "I gotta help the gods so they don't fail me AGAIN." Praise leaders were the "world's oldest profession." Yep! the oldest. But then the praise leaders or Encomiasts often did double duty. As the Brides in Revelation 18 who performed the Heiros Gamos to plant the seed for the gods.
If you can listen to Patrick Mead for more thant 15 seconds I am going to send the gender police to haul you away. He, like all of the deliberately musical deceivers, is pretty ignorant of the Bible but as long as the speaker is "ambidextrous" he will fit in with the rest of the "sworn to change team" wo always shows up. Patrick was their in 2001 or maybe before.
Now,consistent with the Babylon and Jerusalem Akitu
The people were singing all kinds of songs. Three of them can be reconstructed: a frivolous hymn to the goddess of sexuality and love Itar, a song in which Marduk's father Enlil was ridiculed as a god in the gutter, and an antiphonal hymn in which the gods were asked why they were not in their temples and replied that they had to be with Marduk.
"Praise" is always ridiculing God who needs their help. In fact,just as at Babylon the Winterfest is a COMMERCIAL organization more fruitful than the others which tried: Jubilee, Tulsa, etal. The 'praise' songs are often erotic where males try to make love to god and that just turns the preachers on.
Speakers can be quite entertaining...and manipulative. A really sharp, crafty speaker can lure a large crowd of highly impressionable teens into believing just about anything that s/he wants them to believe. The intense excitement of being all together and singing rock "praise" music could very well give those teens the false sense of a so-called "religious experience" and a false sense of "faith." "Beware" or "be wary" (not "be beware") of mass meetings that use hype, heightened emotions, and histrionics to create or boost "faith."
If people are gullible enough, they'll believe anything. Of course everything you read about Winterfest is gonna be "positive." Even the folks at Jonestown thought everything was "positive" while they drank that "special" Kool-Aid. Their leader told 'em so and they bought it--as well as the farm.
Dave, I wouldn't want to invite myself but I would like to have lunch with you. I'll be out of town April 1st but otherwise I should be available. If you can get Donnie, B, Rancar and Ken out of Hohenwald it should be one informative lunch. I still sit in the balcony during the second service as I have for the last 39 years. Have a great day.
Patrick Mead and probably all of the "actors" at winterfest have been the early sowers of discord about the use of praise teams and instruments. They all feed on one another: I have pasted a review of Patrick Mead's take on Nadab and Abihu here.
People love to mock the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai which got the older generation of Israel pruned out and Nadab and Abihu which HE claims is the proof text to denounce instruments.
That is a pretty goood proof text but any Bible reader who cares enough to define words will see a flood of God connecting musical instruments in His face to people who tell Him to "shut his face"(Job 21). Nevertheless, the Nadab and Abihu event should be understood by all who want to learn from God even if they don't do dogma.
Patrick and most of the bad actors say that God did NOT command the synagogue and yet people attended synagogue and God did not destroy them. They are badly informed about the Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness which outlawed "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" including loud elevated forms of speech: When disciples go to the School of Jesus christ we do not need anyone to command us to sit down and shut up.
So, let me get this straight:
1. David was a musician. Instrumental music was all over the old testament. The psalms say to praise God on instruments. However, all of a sudden they became "wrong" in the new testement? Really. Maybe Jesus just didn't make issues out of things that were not issues. It is pretty absurd to think that God would use it throughout the old testament then forbid it in the new without even saying it. You guys just assume things.
2. So do you remember the time in the bible where some of the disciples came to Jesus and whined because there were OTHER disciples doing things in Jesus' name who were not in "their" group? Um, Jesus didn't care. You have such a problem with anyone outside of your denomination...and YES, the church of Christ IS a denomination. One definition of denomination is, "A name or designation, especially for a class or group." Stop acting like you are "above" a denomination when you are one.
3. So, why is it that you are so offended by giving a preacher the name of "pastor" but you will give men the name "elders" and "decons?" So, it's better to call them "preacher?" Because no one just says "brother." A pastor is just a teacher. Just like a person who fixes a car is a mechanic. Seriously, that is so ridiculous.
You guys put all the emphasis on the wrong things...DOING things. You have no clue that the new testament model for Christianity is not the "church" but Christ. And he did not go around making rules. The new testament believes met together and wanted to be like Christ. You are making a "model" out of something that isn't even there. Your model is Christ, not the new testament church. You are missing the whole point. When Christ is your model, you will see what Jeff and Max have been enlightened to. Until then, you will labor under legalism and you will miss the point completely...although because of God's grace you will be saved ONLY because Jesus died for you, as we all are that believe.
Janet is under the impression that Jesus "did not go around making rules." Sounds like she's implying that Jeff and Max are telling everyone that anything goes in Christianity, because there are no rules. If Janet will take a closer look at the New Testament, perhaps she will see that Jesus had a different view about "rules."
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21 KJV).
"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock" (Matt. 7:24 KJV).
"And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand" (Matt 7:26 KJV).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15 KJV).
"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love" (John 15:10 KJV).
Jesus through Paul: "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2 Thess. 1:7-9 KJV).
"Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Heb. 5:8-9 KJV).
Clearly, Jesus commands us to OBEY Him in order to be saved. Jesus will save us ONLY if we yield to Him and OBEY HIS RULES that He set forth in the New Testament. When we obey Him, we DO something. Yet Janet implies that Christianity is not about DOING (hence, not about obedience): "You guys put all the emphasis on the wrong things...DOING things." Janet might as well have said, "You guys put all the emphasis on the wrong things...OBEDIENCE." Is Christianity then only sitting back and thinking pleasant, happy thoughts and romantic ideas about Jesus? That's what it comes down to when you remove the DOING/OBEDIENCE from the picture. Apparently that's what the highly misguided New Age gurus are teaching.
No: we are trying to STOP the EXTRA DOING using legalistic MACHINES.
April 19 2012, 3:16 PM
So, let me get this straight:
1. David was a musician. Instrumental music was all over the old testament. The psalms say to praise God on instruments. However, all of a sudden they became "wrong" in the new testement? Really. Maybe Jesus just didn't make issues out of things that were not issues. It is pretty absurd to think that God would use it throughout the old testament then forbid it in the new without even saying it. You guys just assume things.
No, David was a King: God gave them kings in His anger and took them away in His anger: because of musical idolatry of the always pagan trinity at Mount Sinai God gave them the LAW and sentenced them to Babylon for captivity and destruction." There was no "music" in the tuneful sense until Calvin etal had Psalms RADICALLY rewritten and set to a simple meter for UNISION singing only."
Christ ordained the synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness as the ONLY assembly of the settled people. JESUS defines and endorses the synagogue (Paul's word for come together, assemble or gather). Paul EXCLUDES all of the performing arts and defines the assembly as ONLY "to use one mind and one mouth" to "speak that which is written for our LEARNING." (Rom 15). Now a Christian is a disciple and disciples do not DO religious observations: they go to BIBLE class.
God turned the Civil-Military-Clergy complex over to worship the starry hosts--that includes Abaddon the agent in Revelation which USES the worship teams which John calls "lusted after fruits" and "Sorcerers." Then, in agreement with Christ in Isaiah 30 John consigns them to be cast alive into the lake of fire."
David was a bloody-handed warrior and never a worship leader. The praise songs are WARRIOR'S TAUNTS that promise (from Horus in Egypt onward) that the enemy will be robbed, raped and raptured. The Levites who prophesied with instruments were SOOTHSAYERS ordained to warn that any godly, not-abandoned person who came NEAR was to be executed. The Musical Promoters are performing WITCHCRAFT which means any external means (aids) to the Word of Christ in the prophets and apostles.
God did not command the Monarchy, monarch (king), temple, animal sacrifices or the NOISE which is defined as EXORCISM as in all pagan sacrificial systems. God considered the blood and flesh lust He abandoned the Jews to as MURDER of His innocent creatures. Anyone who has the vision of the universal Spiriit of the universe being appeased or threatened is called blasphemy."
Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle (seven spirits of knowledge Isaiah 11) shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy SORCERERS were all nations deceived.
Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
There is not a jot or tittle or shard of pottery that a majestic DAVID ever lived or that Solomon's grand temple ever existed. God in Christ even facilitated the destruction of Herod's Temple which was operated by hirelings. Not one stone on top of another stone. You should flee Babylon as every single baptized believer did. Go! Quickly.
Re: No: we are trying to STOP the EXTRA DOING using legalistic MACHINES.
April 19 2012, 8:34 PM
Now, Janet, I am really sorry that most of us have been taken captive by men trained in making songs and sermons. I don't believe that there is any one on the "scholar" or "preacher" level who becomes a disciple along with all of the rest of a local assembly. The most conservatives insist--and will hurt you--if you deny that God COMMANDED the use of Instrumeental Music under the "olden law" as worship.
First, God did NOT COMMAND anything reported by the unlawful Scribes of the unlawful kings and priests.
Second, there is nothing remotely similar to our understanding of Music in the whole Bible. Music almost demands making your voices sound together while making all of your body parts move together in what they called "dancing."
There is no command, example or remote inference that God's people ever congregated for congregational singing with or without instruments.
The Bible is filled with God connecting machines that made a ringing, clanging or twanging noises with people intending to tell God that they had no intention of listening to His Words.
I can probably use the word ALWAYS to say that ALL singing (falsetto, effeminate) words and all names of "machines for doing hard work" with people INTENDING to mess with your basic God-made structure to FORCE you to believe what they were telling you are standing numb as they fleeced your lambs.
The PRAISE word used by DAVID was intended to emotionally disable the enemies.
Do you want to follow the Levites (soothsayers) under the KING and COMMANDERS of the Army or do you want to follow the spiritual ANTIthesis of Jesus Christ Who as far as we know SPOKE A hymn (prayer) once in his life and which would not be repeated until the next Passover.
I don't have the slightest reason to believe that you will believe that: Jesus speaks to the TWOS AND THREES who come OUT of the groups and spoke parables or truth hidden in PLAIN sight to the staff of any institution insisting that you pay THEM for the free word Jesus died to reveal to THOSE OF FAITH and those OF TRUTH. Jesus came to seek and save the LOST: I think that might be "lost spirits" living in a PURELY FLESH people Jesus and Peter called a CROOKED RACE and John called A RACE OF VIPER. Too simple for the beasts and vipers to grasp.
Leviticus 25:23 The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine;
.....for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.
Nehemiah 9:2 And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all strangers,
.....and stood and confessed their sins,
.....and the iniquities of their fathers.
Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises,
.....but having seen them afar off,
.....and were persuaded of them, and embraced them,
.....and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
1Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims,
.....abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
Only the tiny remnant (many are called but few are chosen) will hear and obey the son to the extent that He reveals the Father to us. Those who are so added to the church are added to a heavenly kingdom which earthlings CANNOT see or organize. That tiny remnant does not DO religious observation but attend A school (only) of Christ (only).
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners,
.....but fellowcitizens with the saints,
.....and of the household of God;
1Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones,
.....are built up a spiritual house,
.....an holy priesthood,
.....to offer up spiritual sacrifices,
.....acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
That would be a tiny remnant of Jews who had not bowed to Baal and then Gentiles. All would be united in a HEAVENLY kingdom
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Feb 15, 2013 12:10 AM
Ken Sublettt (Login Ken.Sublett) ConcernedMembersMadison 70.193.6.230
Re: No: we are trying to STOP the EXTRA DOING using legalistic MACHINES.
January 27 2013, 9:18 PM
There is some good data on Winterfest. It is true that when these illiterates and ethically deprived people boast that they are taking YOUR youth to these festivals where there is lots of musical bands WE TAUGHT YOUR CHILDREN TO LEAVE OUR MOVEMENT.
Now, it seems, that Jeff Walling has done enough fiddling around at Providence that they have a CONTEMPORARY Instrumental service. Hey, at least 2000 years before Moses warned the Israelites who had been TURNED OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST and sent on their way "beyond Babylon" (land of no return) the towers of Babel had priests, sorcers, prophets, singers, instrument players and prostitutes. They forced you to pay them a TITHE of your earnings so that they could "lead you into the god's presence."
Now, old Jeff walling has finally caught up with CLAY TABLETS and Lucifer whom the spirit OF Christ called "the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden."
"Progressive" you are a wonderful sight to behold: according to prophecy the TAIL is finally bitten by the HEAD and it devours itself.
Re: No: we are trying to STOP the EXTRA DOING using legalistic MACHINES.
January 27 2013, 9:39 PM
I just found an old faithsite when we were discussing Jeff Wallings' apparent direct message about USING women and musical instrument.
Jeff Walling Mockingly:We like havin a map. Don't tell me follow you, just give me a map.
Some of us think he did, that this is a diagnostic tool.
I don't need the leading of the Lord,
I've got the Scriptures.
It is my substitute for the leading of the Lord.
When people have the LORD LEADING them to call recorded history and Paul liars for saying that women MUST NOT take the lead in the assembly, then and now we see the outbreak of feminine and effeminate "worship teams" claiming to Lead you into the presence of God" or "standing in the holy place CLAIMING the role only Jesus received." That is assuredly the END time prophecy.
Anyone who CLAIMS that the Lord is LEADING THEM to add instrumental music is blaspheming the Holy Spirit of Christ who repudiated all forms of hypocritic performance, Jeffy-like-Buffonery-Rhetoric, performance singing or playing instruments. He INTENDS to use psychologial violence so that YOU dare not question what the LORD told Jeff Walling and all if the WinterPest leaders.
John Calvin whom they use for this nonesense says that anyone who hears the Spirit outside of the Word is a FANATIC and yet whole Staff Infections and elders spread hate all over you for telling the truth.
I will try to collect my notes and post it to prove that anyone who HEARS the word and denigrates Scripture as the only way WE have to test His claim, is in danger of being Cast Alive into the lake of fire as John promised the singers, players, and ALL religious teknokrats sucking blood from widows.
The COMMAND is to "teach that which HAS BEEN TAUGHT." The Pastor-Teachers are the TEACHERS. Since they DISMISS Scripture and claim to be GREATER-THAN Jesus they you know that they are in the promised Strongly Deluded stage and believe their own lies because they have tempted God once too often.
Just Curious Janet, What does it mean to follow the example of Christ? If we follow the example of David we would do things differently. Why do some churches pursue music in their worship? Jesus never used music to minister to people or worship God. Who's example do they follow if they use music?
It would have been very nice for Jesus to have written a book so that we could study his writings, but he did not. What he left us was his example. Mature in the example of Christ, then we truly could learn the meaning of growing up.
Does Jeff and Max make money off their knowledge of Jesus, Just like Judas? They may sell something that has Jesus flavor or they may take a salary from a collection plate. Either way why could they serve people with love and love only? The answer is no, they do not know Jesus if they take one penny from anyone. Jesus was tempted with big cash and he refused. Maybe Jeff and Max could learn the love of God from a Mother Teresa if they can not from Jesus. Either way those men say and write what they do to keep their pay checks, not to save souls.
"Jesus never used music to minister to people or worship God"
February 15 2013, 12:59 AM
Agree.
Here's what JESUS said regarding how we are to WORSHIP the FATHER (John 4):
[21] JESUS saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
[22] Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The apostles of Christ did not use music in their "worship" and in spreading the good news of salvation. "Christian Rock" artists (Michael Smith, Twila Paris, et al) and musical bands would have disruptive to the apostles' mission work.
As well as "interactive" comedians such as those employed by the Winterfest organization.
Just a note haven't dropped by in several years. I am greatly encouraged by the few folks posting on the site. Almost totally gone except for the remaining suspects. An answer to many prayers. I will stop in again in a year or so. Praise God, change is coming!
Change Agent
"Change is a-coming" may not be all that joyous to the "Change Agent."
The brotherhood programs, from Chattanooga (Watkins), Oklahoma (Sanders), and the Gulf South (Lambert) all apparently are on board to resist the disintegration.
What instead may be happening is that a few urban megachurches may go their own way, and it is far from a surety that they can maintain their size.
Beware that the "community churches" may actually be Baptist churches in disguise.
Max Lucado who claimed to be a Baptists saw a VISION to remove the confession of CHRIST and hire a Baptist preacher.
Rick Atchley claimed to be enamoured with the Christian Church, heard a spirit tell him to IMPOSE instruments after he had been HANDLED by a handler from the NACC.
Rubel Shelly collected 3 or 4 church properties and GATHERED in a Christian Church before his NEW church could be built.
My old church in Seattle was hit with a VANGUARD trained in a Christian Church college. He UNITED with a Christian Church by CAPITULATING and wrote a book to boast about it (Milton Jones).
One thing you can say about brother Watkins he LOOKS and SPEAKS like a real male. He shows up in Hohenwald, TN pretty often. I think he still has the trinity probably inherited from LU.
I have no doubt that all of the infiltrated and diverted churches were pretending to be Church of Christ until they collected their pieces of silver and intended and failed to DIVERT the church in Hohenwald, TN.
You have to have a criminal mind to do that. I doubt that anyone can find the most conservative preacher of the Church of Christ who would collect a group to INFILTRATE and divert--as they did Madison (Donnie) church "into a theater for holy entertainment."
That "hidden agenda" or slithering is a KEY meaning of the SERPENT.
One Church of Christ that apparently is in danger of take-over hired a preacher from the staff, whom they said was selected through them by the Holy Spirit. This was to replace their previous preacher who pulpitted a declining membership, but at the same time did present the baptism for remission of sins about every service.
The present Holy-Spirit-selected preacher doesn't give an invitation and the audience is left in limbo not knowing where to stand during the invitation, and somewhat confused about when or if they are to go forward.
The result is mass confusion, and attendees are streaming toward to doors during the "invitation song."
I kind of doubt that this change agent will pulpit as growing church, even IF it considers itself a community church.
That was exactly what happened in Hohenwald, TN. When challenged they dredged up a long list of reasons why baptism was NOT required and therefore they could fellowship the local Holiness group but not any of the "inferior" county Churches of Christ. They were Purpose Driven to attempt to steal the church houses of widows by lying.
One of the passages from the ACU and Purpose Driven Cult used was:
Luke 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
Luke 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
SO, you can be saved just because SALVATION came without baptism
Of course the next verse we have the SON OF MAN coming to seek and save the lost. In Zechariah, the "father" is Jehovah-righted and the son is Jehovah-yasha where Joshua is translated Jesus.
So, you can be saved by giving money to the poor? These people are pumped full of denominational garbage and their output is garbage enough to embarass the old "purple hairs" who had to flee their church home. God HATES people who sow discord.
They would also threaten you if you disputed their "wurshupping the futher, wurshupping Je-Zeus and wurshupping the hully spurt. Some members just closed their song books and hung their head.
I was mocking young preachers who are taught to slide out Hail Zeus: that goes along with the Goose Clapping.
Yes, there is at least one sink hole: sucked up a sum of "money for the lord-e-uh" knowing that they PLANNED to divert the monies into a Purpose Driven Cult.
The SCHOOL OF CHRIST ONLY rejecting Hermes' (hermeneutic) instruments and his role as the MESSENGER OF THE GODS.
Hermes became best known as the swift messenger of the gods. Euripides, in his prologue to the play Ion, has Hermes introduce himself as follows:
Atlas, who wears on back of bronze the ancient
Abode of the gods in heaven, had a daughter
Whose name was Maia, born of a goddess:
She lay with Zeus, and bore me, Hermes ,
Servant of the immortals.
Hermes is thus of a double origin. His grandfather is Atlas, the demigod who holds up heaven, but Maia, his mother, already has a goddess as her mother, while Hermes' father, Zeus, is of course the highest of the gods. It is tempting to interpret this as saying that from worldly toil (Atlas), with a heavy infusion of divine inspiration, comes forth consciousness, as symbolized by Hermes.
That's the godhead of the Progressives
HH 19 To Pan:1 Muse, tell me about Pan, the dear son of Hermes, with his goat's [cappella] feet and two horns a lover of merry noise. Through wooded glades he wanders with dancing nymphs who foot it on some sheer cliff's edge, [5] calling upon Pan, the shepherd-god, long-haired, unkempt.... Often he courses through the glistening high mountains, and often on the shouldered hills he speeds along slaying wild beasts, this keen-eyed god. Only at evening, [15] as he returns from the chase,
.....he sounds his note,
.....playing sweet and low on his pipes of reed:
.....not even she could excel him in melody
.....that bird who in flower-laden spring pouring forth her lament utters honey-voiced song amid the leaves....
Then all the immortals were glad in heart and Bacchic Dionysus [New Wineskins god] in especial; and they called the boy Pan because he delighted all their hearts.
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.166.40 on Mar 6, 2013 12:09 PM This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.166.40 on Mar 6, 2013 12:05 PM
There may be no need for the "invitation" after a "speech" has been delivered with the mention of Jesus and a few passages.
The musical background [with "soft" instrumental sounds] is somewhat commonplace these days? Plus the ladies co-worship leading on stage -- well, it's only during the last song, correct? Plus, the swaying-to-the-music "Worship Leader" or gyrating [I think, arm-wagging may be less of a distraction] -- brother Ken S. has a label for the appearance of double-C mannerisms. He "got" talent, i.e., musically. Great voice, but he can certainly "worship-lead" sitting down. The "Lord's Praise Team" can be heard without their handheld microphones.
We should be concerned about reaching the lost rather than to be the first to incorporate the latest craze or fad into our worship and practice. Jesus meant what he said and said what he meant. He has all power and has given the marching orders.
Consider that the current digression we have to address can take us off target and that this is a strategy of satan.
This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!
...........................THE BOOK
What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?
There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.
This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison
Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource
references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least
you will recognize the signs early on.
Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't
know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.
Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was
one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.
It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of
it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word
of Jesus Christ.
At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority
of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly
realm.
They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and
to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.
The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan.
Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books,
seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change
so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....
At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to
be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched
through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the
"Community Church Movement"
Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready,
or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the
plans very nature, it had to be secret.
The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was
never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last
15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.
The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the
elders went along unwittingly.
This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell
something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill
in some of the timeline.
To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the
background materials in the first of the book.
This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be
printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our
web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison
Here is the list of players;
5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten
commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Anag.TableA.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Kings.Anger.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/John.17.Pray.World.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Praise.EncomiastA.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Praise.EncomiastB.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Psalm.150.Halal.Canto.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Halal.Lucifer.All.gif)
He shows up in Hohenwald, TN pretty often. I think he still has the trinity probably inherited from LU.
![[linked image]](http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i164/Delesa1/Blinkies/8de944fd.gif)
![[linked image]](http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww173/prestonjjrtr/Smileys/Star%20Trek/StarTrekBeamUpSmiley.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Lucretius.Women.Musiic.gif)