I have recently found this site while browsing for a nationwide church of Christ directory.

As a member of a small (40 member) church , I found this an interesting read, to say the least.

I have not absorbed all of this yet, and need to still read further, but the letter from the deacons, with subsequent replies from the eldership has me very disturbed.

I do agree that worship should not be gimmicky, and should not be a show to attract non-believers. If the gospels can't hold thier attention, then the battle has been lost already.

More to follow once I can read and bounce this off scripture.

Jonathan, PLEASE do not believe everything you read here. Most of the posts are by 2-3 people who have an axe to grind. Things are changing for the better and they do not like it. They are Pharasees stuck in the "OLD" way of doing things and are afraid of changes.

They belittle those that do not agree with them and are VERY self-righteous about it. This website is religious PORN.

JD

If even half of what I read here is true, then even that would be disturbing.

While I appreciate your concern, some contrary evidence about how things are changing would be appreciated. I can't "take your word" on it anymore than I would anyone elses. By stating that things "are changing" verifies that something was indeed happening, and is disconcerting at best. As with all conflicts, there are two sides to every story, anf would appreciate constructive proofs to the contrary to support your position.

The restoration movement that our brotherhood is founded upon, is very important to maintaining purity of worship. Worship is about God, and not entertaining the unchurched. I find great value in the simplistic approach toward worship.

JD; Seems to me that this web-site is needed to remind us all (like you and I) that these so-called changes and new thoughts are being forced and made to "fit" into man-made scriptures and man-made non-baptism salvation doctrine type churches...

That said, I agree that some "old" churches were "ripe" for this man-made picking, and everyone of those former elders/deacons/preachers, etc. etc. will answer to the Lord someday.

Max cannot save me, Ruby can not save me, only Christ can save me...

And we need to be certain (and reminded these days) that rites, poems, traditions, music, clapping, lights, bells, whistles, are not the first and only items needed to be saved.

There has to be confession and baptism, then followed by changes in everyday lifestyle, and then public worship, of course followed by continuous learning...
love you brother... Frank

Frank, Jonathan,
Maybe you should show up and see for yourselves. Then you don't have to depend on rumors

"Anonymous
Posted Feb 19, 2004 4:45 PM

Frank, Jonathan,
Maybe you should show up and see for yourselves. Then you don't have to depend on rumors"

I wouldn't go so far as to say I am depending on anything. I am curious about this situation, and am collecting information.

All I can really gather is that there was a serious breech of worship style, and it looks as if there are essentially two congregations worshipping in the same building, with two different theologies.

If that is true, then how can this be unifying?

Please answer me with a yes or a no. Are there two different (Acapella vs. charismatic hand clapping) worship services on sunday mornings?

I rather stumbled onto this site, similarly as Jonathan did and I must say at first breath, I am cranking up! Now, i do understand that this could be taken rather badly but I do not mean any disrespect. I understand how serious you (all) are and I believe that everyone has only the best of intentions mainly giving honor to God... but this particular topical discussion read like a web-soap opera! It was reviting. "Will Jonathan see the light?... can JD reach him before it's to late??? Will the CGM take over before it's too late... who will save the day?!?!" This was really good stuff and I must say that I was LOL alot (though it's really late for me and I should be more quiet for my sleeping wife.) Again, I do apologize and I don't really expect anyone to reply to this responce. I know your issues are serious and in your minds have eternal implications. I do wish that God's people would work together in the spirit of Love, but as long as there is selfish ambition(s) it probably won't happen on this side of eternity. I love you all, in the name of the Lord and I hope you figure it all out. I will continue to read everyones messages becuz I suspect that it will be quite entertaining and unfortunately even amusing... Soli Deo Gloria!
MES!
Ps. 18:19

MES, You are a mess. Pass the peanut. Enjoy your reading. I love your spirit, brother. I hope we all benefit from participating in this web site. Who said it was meant to be a dullsville?

Chai Voraritskul
Feb. 25, 2004.

Hey now--
I appreciate the love. I feel you on that. I just was in a pretty goofy state in the wee hours of the morning and I can get a little twisted when I am tired. I am glad I stumbled onto you Band of Merry Men and if possible I would like to engage in the merriment from time to time. Again, I want to state that I am not meaning to down play all the seriousness about the issues concerning Madison C.O.C. nor do I believe that everything that comes out of my mouth (or from my key pad) will be pertinent at all. I've been in these very same type discussions it seems for as long as I can remember and I am 37! So, it apparently is a pretty big hurdle for us to get over and beyond which in my humble opinion is very sad (and a little pathetic). So, my prayer is that we will see the importance of being Salt and Light in light of what the Lord declared to His Father when praying in the Garden and realize that our agenda to be right is completely trumped by His agenda that his followers and true disciples will love each other. I mean, don't get a brotha wrong. I love me a good ole fashion drama like the next insomniac... but if you think about it, we should be gearing up for what is a definate trend in today's culture, a need and desire by post-moderns to find what is truly worthwhile and really pertinent. Man, if we were known as, "Those people over there (at Madison ave.) who really love each other..." many websites like this one would simply go away becuz we wouldn't have any drama to air out, or at least not as much. Hey, gotta bumb. Peace and prosperity to you and yours. Soli Deo Gloria!
MES!
Ps. 18:19

Thanks for writing, MES! Yes, forums that discuss religious topics can get as insane as those discussing politics. Each side has their agenda to promote, and each side is rabidly convinced that they are right. It's too bad that it has degenerated into the status of a soap opera. That's only human nature.

Maybe you could favor us with an account about how churches are faring with the new, modern movement where you live. It's not an isolated event - churches are changing all over the world, and it's got many up in arms.

Wow--
I actually thought I wouldn't get any responses. I know my humor can tend to be a little irreverant at times. A bit of my history and then perhaps a lil summin, summin concerning a point you wrote to Jonathan. I am a baptized believer with a bit of the old school perspective mixed with some fresh application. I am a PK-- Preacher's Kid not Promise Keeper even though I have attended many PK events and have sang in Event Choirs and sang on one of their CD's. I am a PK(don't run, we all aren't that bad... usually, most of the time, well... at least I plead the Blood alot so that's gotta count for something!) I have ministered as an associate minister for a number of years in a small local church in Fresno, Ca. I was baptized at any early age and was pretty much immersed in both the ways of scripture and the ways of the church. It's been a very vital and challenging upbringing. ***Now It Gets Good*** I now live in SoCal and I lead worship in a number of different churches mostly Christian Church and most recently at an Evangelical Free Church that has developed a brand new worship service geared to be multi-ethnic and very urban in it's approach to worship music and culture. This of course is outside of the historic EV Free box. In fact, that very notion that I am here is a pretty big deal... you see, I am (wait for it...)African-American. A black man, who is bought by the blood, bible believing and unafraid to proclaim my love for everything Godly. I am not speaking of a liberal bent, politically, but rather, I am one who believes that where ever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty (from Sin, Final Judgement, and most temporal judgements of well meaning brethern). I am and will always be a member of the Lord's Church and I do understand that many in the C.O.C. camp will find that strange and perhaps contridictory, but in truth, I don't care! I see us (C.O.C'ers) acting a little like the Pharicees of old (Matt. 23) and it frightens me for those us trying to be Salt and Light... WHEW!!! Man, where did all of that come from. I am not really informed enough to get all up in this discussion yet. My Bad! Well, that's my life in a very small nutshell.

But now I would like to give you my little 2 cents regarding something you wrote to Jonathan. You wrote, "The strength of biblical truth presented anywhere is inversely proportional to the world's tolerance and acceptance of it. Thus, the more that someone presents biblical truth, the more the world will hate that truth and that person. The more that someone perverts, softens, or dismisses biblical truth, the faster the world embraces him as one of its own. We CANNOT be a friend of the world AND a friend of God." Yet you also admitted that the bible has been a leading best seller (which you indicated that Rick Warren's book maybe surpassing as a best seller). If your premise and subsequent axiom is correct then one could say that the Bible being a best seller, certainly longer than Rick Warren's book, must be perverted truth instead of the inerrant and inspired word of truth. I am not saying your point is wrong, simply it seems to me that your premise on it's merits is not enough to support the axiom you give as a possible conclusion. It's too far reaching and not substantiated enough. But, what do I know... I'm just trying to do the Lord's will, not have to pay too much taxes and live in SoCal without being arrested for walking in the wrong neighborhood. Hey you guys are great and I do wish that we all could, "Just get along" but the dividing lines have already been drawn. It does occur to me that however well intentioned we all are, It is the Love we have for one another that Jesus affirmed in prayer to His Father that is the identifying mark of His Disciples, not our music, our theology, our passion for the truth. Our Love for One another. Well, I'll just let that marinate a little... gotta go! God Bless and I'm out! Soli Deo Gloria!
MES!
Ps 18:19

Given the large number of posts on this web site, it is reasonable to believe that racial diversity is well represented among the contributors. Yours, however, is the first post I know of on this web site that calls specific attention to your race (African American). I'm sure that not only myself, but others have wondered why you felt it necessary to reveal this bit of information, as if it critically impacted on your arguments.

Apology accepted; meanwhile, here’s a reply to your response. For a really entertaining and even amusing religious web soap opera, please check out “Message Boards” under COMMUNITY at www.iBelieve.com. See if you will be LOL a lot. And speaking of “selfish ambitions,” perhaps at your suggestion and request, Rick Warren will be very motivated to write “Purpose Driven Church—New and Improved.”

Hey now--
thanks for the reply. I just wanted to let you know that I will check that site out and see what's what. I am not one of your Madison Ave. peeps (Duh!)but I am a member of the Lords called out. I will be prayerful that God will show himself Lord of All and that those of your fellowship who are resisting his move will be seen for who they really are... I give no commentary on the Who's Who at Madison, I just believe that Jesus wanted his followers to love one another and that wasn't just some sappy little musing between Father and Son just before Son gives himself over to be tortured, ridiculed and put to cruel painful death for us all... I believe it is the acid test he uses and the world will use to determine who belongs to Him. I know being right feels... right, and all, but believe me if a brotha is beating me over the head with his bible trying to prove to me that this is how he can best express his for me, I'm just not gonna feel the love over the headache feeling. Well, forgive the play on your name, but if you people don't start having some light hearted fun soon, I think you all are going to just combust... then what happened at Madison C.O.C. will have taken on an entirely different connotation. So, Donnie B. Good, be good and I shout at ya late. Peace!
Soli Deo Gloria;
MES!
Ps. 18:19

Nimrod--a hunter AGAINST GOD--built his own tower of Babylon and had his own Musical Worship Team--always females or "the harem of the gods." He claimed that he could REGENERATE SOULS THROUGH EXTERNAL MEANS. He was a man of 50 names. In the end-time fulfilment of the Babylon Harlot religion, I think that JD is a man of many names and one a musical worship??? team.

Furthermore, the LOCUSTS in Revelation were the MUSES or musical performers. I thought that you might be enterested that what is happening to you is caused by JD and his team. Consistent with all of history he tries to DIVERT YOU by telling you that Bible Speakers in song and sermon actually CAUSED the great tribulation from coming on you. The Locusts or MUSICAL PERFORMERS under the lordship of Abaddon had SCORPION STINGERS in their tails. But, their job was not to HURT those with the Mark of the Word and Baptism but to DRIVE THEM OUT of the "theaters for holy entertainment." Remaining in the STOLEN buildings their job was to PUNISH those with the MUSIC MARK on them (Caim means "a musical note"). Those who believe they are "worshiping" are really being afflicted by the musicians which produces the same "enjoyable" phenonema as watching "The Texas Chain Saw Murders." Musicans are noted as both DISGUSGING and APPEALING. These people USE making fun and clapping to mock Jesus again to "Try to make a place for themselves in the mainstream."

The concept of MUSICA or CANTUS proves what Nimrod and modern THEATRICAL PERFORMERS and medical doctors know: Music or Cantus or Melodia carry the concept of MILITARY DESTRUCTION. There is no Greek resource which does not point to the well-known fact that MUSIC is always AN ATTACK on you. Sure, you get a thrill out of the Far Shooter (Apollo, Abaddon, Apollyon) twanging his bowstrings to send "singing arrows" into the literal HEART to destroy it. External Melody is a WARFARE word and is never "musical" in spiritual sense.

The musicians were associated with TONGUE SPEAKERS but unfortunately for the JDs of the world, these were always real tongues and never gibberish. That falls under the heading of MADNESS or INSANITY or people driven into slavering gibberish by music and OTHER DRUGS.

DIALEKTOS hę, discourse, conversation, Hp.Art.30; theois pros anthrôpous Pl.Smp.203a ; discussion, DEBATE, ARGUMENT

IV. style, panęgurikę, poiętikę d., D.H.Comp.23,21: esp. poetical diction,
V. of musical instruments, quality, 'idiom', Arist. de An.420b8.

LALEO, talk, chat, prattle,

II. CHATTER, opp. articulate speech, as of LOCUSTS, CHIRP, Theoc.5.34; mesęmbrias LALEIN tettix (sc. eimi), a very grasshopper to chirp at midday,

TETTIX

1. a kind of grasshopper, the cicala, Lat. cicada, an insect fond of basking on bushes, when the male makes a chirping noise by striking the wing against the breast, Il., etc.

2. chruseos t. a golden CICADA wornk by the Athenians before Solon.'s time, as an emblem of their claim to being AUTO-CHTNONES (for such was the supposed origin of the insect), Ar., Thuc.

Auto-chthonspeaks of those NOT created by God but who sprang from the earth. Indeed, the Bible speaks of the LOCUSTS being aroused for the end time by Apollo. They sprang from the ground. The fallen angels under Satan were cast into the underworld.

Job speaks of those who SPIT in his face as making a TABRET out of him. The word tabret or tambourine gave rise to the word TOPHETH which partly defines TOPHETH or HELL the place of burning and MAGGOTS where the king/queen of Babylon went with his/her
musicians and musical instruments.

I. sprung from the land itself, Lat. terrigena: autochthones, hoi, like Lat. Indigenae, ABORIGINES, natives, Hdt., Thuc.; of the Athenians, Eur., Ar., etc.

II. as adj. indigenous, Hdt.

AUTO-GENES , es, SELF-produced, DAIMON v. l. in Hermes.

Plato said that Daimon warned that "When the MUSIC CHANGES you should be warned that people INTEND to change the laws: at first, the music is added gradually as entertainment."

Hermes is the LOGOS which Rubel Shelly claims informed John to INVENT the word of Logos or Word for the Christians. Of course, the personified WORD of God was Dabar in the Old Testament.

Religious musicians were NORMALLY female prostitutes or flute-girls. Classical writers note that for a male to get up and SING and PLAY at the same time MARKED him as either DRUNK or PERVERTED. When Paul said DON'T GET DRUNK, the word METHUO almost always means to get FLUTTED DOWN or PIPED DOWN with wine. Musical performers could also be FULL of something else which marked them as insanely arrogant.

As SICARRI as in Judas the Sicarri or daggar men were later known as HEMP SMOKERS OR TREADERS, the AUTOGENES who repudiate the idea of God and claim SELF as the right to "work out your own salvation" and also your "scriptures" the AUTO-CHTNONES "hallucinated" by being self-generated by drugs:

2. autogenes, to, = NARKISSOS, Ps.-Dsc.4.158; ostoun au., = kolokunthis, ib.176.

Narkissosthe narcissus, Hhymn., Soph., etc. [From narkaô, because of its narcotic properties.]

Further on the TEAMS or MUSICAL GUILDS. The Levitical Musicians were not used in the time of David to offer animal sacrifices. Rather, David prepared them for the EARTHLY TEMPLE under Solomon:

"The religious poetry of the Ugaritic texts has been shown to have close affinities with the Phraseology of the Hebrew Psalms. From the same sources come references to a class of Temple personnel designated by the term serim, who exercised functions similar to those of the Hebrew singers during the monarchy and later times. Some of the servants of David who were designated in 1 Kings 4:31 by (a) term meaning 'aboriginal' or 'native sons,' and who possessed Canaanite names such as Heman, Chalcol, and Darda, were engaged in various forms of musical activity.

As such they were described by the phrase 'sons of Mahol,' a Hebrew term closely related to (the Greek), used of a semi-circular area in which the Greek chorus danced, and meaning 'members of the orchestral guild.'

"A further reflection of this musical interest became apparent when Megiddo was excavated and the treasure room of the royal palace was uncovered. From this area was recovered a plaque inlaid with ivory, depicting a royal personage seated on a throne. He was drinking from a small bowl, and was being entertained by a court musician who stood before him plucking the strings of a lyre." (See Amos 5; 6; 8)

"With the later days of Solomon came a resurgence of Canaanite idolatry,

and when the kingdom began to function as two separate units, the breach between the religious life of the north and south was accentuated." (Harrison, R. K., Introduction to the Old Testament, Eerdmans, p. 335-6, see p. 411).

Don't listen to the Chirping or Clanging or Twanging of the end-time Locusts: Neither the Bible nor church history knows of MUSICAL PERFORMANCE as worship to a spiritual god. EVERYONE knows of the present PERSONAE of musical and speaking performers or actors (Pharisees, Scribes, Hypocrites). Why should the faithful stand around while they do, as boasted about, take over the churches in order to make the theaters for self exhibition?

Ken Sublett

To Jonathan, Frank, and other new comers: Read with discernment! Witness for yourself the Spirit of Light engaging the spirit of darkness in the battle for the souls of men. Each spirit manifests himself and speaks through human agents. The agents of the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of deception are both present at this website. Judge for yourself who is who. Do you know how to identify them? Listen to the word of the Spirit of Christ, speaking to you.

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit [and their postings] you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them” (Matthew 7:15-20).

“Make a tree good and its fruit [and the postings] will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree [the agent of a spirit] is recognized by its fruit [and the postings]. You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the Day of Judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned” (Matthew 12:33-37).

“John said to the crowds…: ‘You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance… The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire’” (Luke 3:7-9).

“The sins of some men are obvious, reaching the place of judgment ahead of them; the sins of others trail behind them. In the same way, good deeds are obvious, and even those that are not cannot be hidden” (1Timothy 5:24f).

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son… If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness…Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one misses that grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many…” (Hebrews 12:5-17).

“See to it that you do not refuse him [Christ] who speaks [right now, to you]. If they [Israel] refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him [Christ] who warns us from heaven [right now!]? At that time [at Mt. Sinai] his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, ‘Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.’ The words ‘once more’ indicates the removing of what can be shaken – that is, created things – so that what cannot be shaken may remain” (Hebrews 12:25-27).

“Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, ‘whom shall I send? And who will go for us?’ And I said, ‘ Here am I. Send me!’ He said, ‘Go and tell this people: ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn, and be healed. Then I said, ‘For how long, O Lord?’ And he answered: ‘Until the cities lie ruined and without inhabitant, until the houses are left deserted and the fields ruined and ravaged, until the Lord has sent everyone far away and the land is utterly forsaken. And though the tenth remains in the land, it will again be laid waste. But as the terebinth and oak leave stumps when they are cut down, so the holy seed will be the stump in the land” (Isaiah 6:8-13).

The messengers have arrived. The cleansing has started. Are you a spectator, or are you an emissary?

Chai Voraritskul
Feb. 20, 2004.

I identify evil by how it checks with scripture, not "how the spirit makes me feel."

You still did not answer my question, Chai.

{I identify evil by how it checks with scripture, not "how the spirit makes me feel."} Good. The Spirit is speaking to you now through the scriptures you have just read. "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life" (John 6:63b). Your feeling is both the thermometer and barometer of whatever is in focus in your mind at any given time. Take note of your feeling, but ignore not the Spirit.

{You still did not answer my question, Chai.} What is your question, Jonathan?

Chai Voraritskul
Feb. 20, 2004.

Please answer me with a yes or a no. Are there two different (Acapella vs. charismatic hand clapping) worship services on sunday mornings?

The answer is: "yes and no." Is that all you want?

Chai V.

I assume that the answer is yes, there are two different services. I also assume the "no" means you don't consider them seperate.

Am I correct in this assesment?

If I am, how can this be considered one unified congregation serving God together, and not two different congregations inder one roof?

I ask because I am confused.
Who is doing it right, and who is doing it wrong? Or do you consider there to be optional worship styles all equally pleasing to the Lord? If God tells us in his word, how to conduct worship, how can there be optional things added and taken away from it? This would infer that one service is either not doing enough, or the other is adding items that weren't supposed to be present.

Insight, please.

Jonathan, I will reply to your post in the next few days. I have not overlooked your question. Look like Rusty Stark has picked up on it already and posted his response today on a new thread named: "The Divided Assembly." I have a different point of view. I will post my response shortly.

Chai Voraritskul
Feb. 23, 2004.

Chai,

Don't get me confused with the thread started by another on this board. You will see "Rusty Stark [Mich}" who wrote the article years ago. One of the regulars here copied it to the forum. We are not the same person.

rs

Chai

I don't like wading into this, but I can no longer stand to look at this. Based on your posts I'm going to make an assumption that you see nothing wrong with the CGM.

The CGM is very clever in twisting the argument to paint those individuals who stand fast against the cancer that has afflicted many in the brotherhood as "false prophets" or "bad fruit". Looking at the scriptures you have a lengthy list of scripture you believe upholds the CGM position, Matthew 7:15-20, Matthew 12:33-37, Luke 3:7-9, 1Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 12:5-17, Hebrews 12:25-27, Isaiah 6:8-13.

What is your explanation for 2 Timothy 4:3-4, "For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths." It would appear that if the CGM's motives were pure, this scripture would be quoted as well. It is called consistency, but in all of the deception and lies told in order to take over congregations, the CGM leaves this one out. (probably because it hits a little close to home) However the CGM does do a rather nice job of making the other "false teacher" scriptures apply to those who simply want to follow the Bible and not have the congregation which they attend turned into a circus.

I also find it amazing how the CGM says that they are attempting to promote "freedom in Christ". Freedom nothing. It is the CGM that says you must worship a certain way, or be shunned. It is the CGM that says you must hold certain views of scripture, or you may not teach or even comment in Bible class. Those who hold to the CGM have been asked to get another point of view by attending conferences not associated with CGM, but refused. (after all a well rounded individual would want info from all points of view) It is the CGM that goes so far as to say that if you do not do things their way you are a "Judizer" and in danger of hell for not holding to the CGM doctrine.

To contrast those who do not hold to CGM doctrine, were nice enough to allow those who hold to CGM in the door. (the biggest mistake.) Allowed the CGM to be taught in order for what seemed to be the more harmless aspects of CGM to be applied. In other words "change", that thing that holders of CGM say traditional churches would not allow. Now those who allowed for CGM to come in the door are Moday morning quarterbacking their decision, because they have quickly realized that the chuch they attended for years has chewed them up and spit them out. This is normally done by an elder that "eveyone loves" therefore anything that you say that might look like "negativity" towards their actions is dismissed.

I do not know if you have seen this happen or not. I can say if you have not seen it personally, ask an elder what happened to the "Jones'". The answer will be something like, "The Jones' found that we were no longer meeting their needs". Is the church not to be a family? Since the Church is a family, then how are the actions of said elder to be considered biblical? To every elder out there who has ever done this, may their conscience keep them tossing in their sleep at night! How dare they jeapordize the souls of those you were to help feed and protect and then throw them out because they question your actions through scripture. Sound personal, well it is. The CGM has taken over 2 congregations I attended, and a congregation where a healthy number of extended family attended. Don't tell me this does not happen, if you do you are either ignorant of the facts or a little too self righteous.

What say you now?

Breaking Away: "Much apostasy from religion is strongly related to conflicts with one's parents. Many of those who think they are breaking away from their church in the name of enlightenment and freedom actually are at least partially working out conflicts with their mother and father. Andrew Greeley, Unsecular Man

Unfortunately, after all of the division and strife has died down the decadent and deliterious will still be there with no correction possible by a wrecking crew and the new paradigm will become the old, rigid pattern ready for the next crop ob baby boomers ready to spit in the face of mammy and pap:

Nothing is clearer in history than the adoption by successful rebels of the methods they were accustomed to condemn in the forces they deposed. Will and Ariel Durant

From Christianity Today" Of Willow Creek: a Para-Military system:

"Ulrich Eggers, a leading German evangelical who served as press spokesman at the Hamburg sessions, stresses that Willow Creek's "central message has nothing to do with drama or music,

.........but rather with the living portrayal of dedicated Christians."
[That means the IDOLATRY OF TALENT}

........"The cost of this approach is hard work and loads of strife with church insiders." Christianity Today

If these methods sound suspiciously like the paramilitary Jubilee movements, the German critics take note of where these movements will work:

"Douglass, who has developed the most successful Willow Creek-based church service in Germany, even maintained, "I think this approach is most applicable to the STATE CHURCHES. We have the people, even if they don't attend. We enjoy an incredible edge in confidence vis-ŕvis the FREE churches." He cautioned,

These HOSTILE TAKEOVERS are led by thieves who want there to be ONE WORLD CHURCH so that we ARE NOT ALLOWED to question anyone's authority for DIGGING UP pagan worship.

Almost all musical terms in the Bible are related to the panic of war, prostitution, commercial slight of hand or some other act which abrades, seduces or grinds one to bits to gain an advantage. This is why Paul insisted that the "melody" or breaking to bits take place in each individual heart. Ancient paganism was aware that:

Fragment 10, Aristotle, de mundo 5, 396b20. The ancients understood that complex harmony was a deadly sound like the twanging bowstring or "singing" arrow.

Things taken together are wholes and not wholes, something is being brought together and brought apart, which is in tune and out of tune; out of all things there comes a unity, and out of a unity all things.
The BOW is called STRIFE, but its WORK is DEATH

Fragment 209, Hippolytus Ref Ix, 9, I
"They do not apprehend how being at variance it agrees with itself: there is a palintonos (counter-stretched) harmony, as in the bow and the lyre.(4)

Fragment 54, Hippolytus Ref IX, 9,5

An unapparent harmony is stronger than an apparent one.

"All things come into being by conflict of opposites, and the sum of things flows like a stream. This order, the same for all things, no one of gods or men has made, but it always was, and is, and ever shall be, an ever-living fire, kindling according to fixed measure, and extinguished according to fixed measure. Justice meant a balance of opposites, and hence could be defined as strife.

Heraclitus cited as an example the tension between the string and the frame in a bow or a musical instrument. 'Harmony lies in the bending back, as for instance of the bow or of the lyre... Opposition unites. From what draws apart results the most beautiful harmony. All things take place by strife'." (Parkes, Henry Bamford, Gods and Men The Origins of Western Culture, p. 188, Knopf)

Lucian of Samosata was driven out of Christianity by the Lamb fleecers. He made fun of the oracles such as that at Delphi where Apollo and the Muses kidnapped "ministers" and gave them as man "lambs" as they could butcher and eat:

"Alexander, on the other hand, preferred his native place, urging very truly that an enterprise like theirs required congenial soil to give it a start, in the shape of 'fat-heads' and simpletons; that was a fair description, he said, of the Paphlagonians beyond Abonutichus; they were mostly superstitious and well-to-do; one had only to go there with someone to play the flute, the tambourine, or the cymbals, set the proverbial mantic sieve a-spinning, and there they would all be gaping as if he were a god from heaven.

http://www.piney.com/Lucianalexander.html

Ken

Dear Jonathan,

Yes, it is highly disturbing. Make no mistake about it, the postmodern church is changing. Most of these changes toward making churches more culturally relevant and more acceptable to unbelievers or “seekers” are taking place in the larger cities and the larger churches. You are less likely to see radical changes in those churches which you describe that have a very small membership roll. For example, my sister, who belongs to a rural Church of Christ of some 50 members in Gallatin, TN, reports that services have continued as they have for generations past.

Nevertheless and regardless of the size of membership, you and members of all churches should be thoroughly aware of the so-called Church Growth Movement (CGM), which is also known by such various names as the Community Church Movement, the Purpose-Driven Church Movement, the Market-Driven Church Movement, and the User-Friendly (Seeker-Friendly) Church Movement. This movement is slowly creeping into and taking over thousands of churches across the USA and the world. You will find a gold mine of material on this site from which to learn about the movement.

But I caution you not to get too bogged down in the multitude of forums on this site. They are frequently sources of bickering and hard feeling. If you seriously want to study what’s behind the CGM, go to the links on this site and read the articles by Paul Proctor, a columnist at News with Views and former rock musician who saw how the CGM was spritually corrupting his former church. Read “The Community Church Movement: A Special Presentation” at this site and read all the posts by Bro. John Waddey, a most discerning Church of Christ minister. His material is highly informative. Elsewhere, I recommend the web site by Kjos Berit (www.crossroad.to) and read the two-part article "Spirit-Led or Purpose-Driven?" and anything else there about the changing church.

Regarding material “from the horse’s mouth,” you should read Pastor Rick Warren’s books, “The Purpose-Driven Church” and “The Purpose-Driven Life.” Don’t waste money purchasing them, just check them out of your public library. Warren is a phenomenally influential CGM “change agent” in the USA, and you should be familiar with his propaganda.

Only by being thoroughly informed and ever on guard can you thwart the unspeakable malignancy of the CGM and keep your church pure and separate from the world (Romans 12:2).

Thanks to Dr Crump for suggesting the links to Paul Proctors writings. His experience in the "purpose driven church" mimics my own. I found the writings helpful and hope Jonathan reads them as well.

Jonathan, if you should decide to enter into the information environment, remember: "A good book is priceless." The book: “The Purpose Driven Life” is one of the best books I have ever read. Don’t be stingy. Buy one and read it carefully. It did not become the #1 bestseller for no good reason. Let no man do the thinking for you. There are also voluminous articles, exchanges, and debates on this web site. Some are rubbish. You will be reading until your eyeballs turn red, and you have just scratched the surface. In the course of reading, sooner or later, you will find also that practically everything you have been taught will be challenged, like you are witnessing here. What do you do now? Don’t get too disturbed. Don’t get angry. Get on your knees. Ask God what is going on. Ask for wisdom and instruction. Find out what he would like you to do to help. Read your Bible. Compare everything with the word of God. But, if your knowledge of the word of God is limited, you will not have a sufficient foundation to support the weight of the information you are taking in, building your life on, or helping anyone. What then? We are all in the same boat on this. This is what I do.

I read the Scriptures regularly, almost daily, faithfully. I don’t read it so that I can use it to justify any dogma I have been taught, and have accepted, but I read it as if the Lord himself is speaking to me at that very moment for the first time. Do I have an opinion on what I am reading? Of course I do, but I set it aside and let the Spirit of Christ in me tell me what the Lord is saying. I think and meditate on what I have read all day long while I go on with my daily activities. I converse with the Lord in my head silently and privately at times, just like I am talking to myself.

I thank him, I praise him, and I do ask him questions. He shows me his answers in various ways. I find most of my answers in the Bible, but he is never confined or has limited himself to communicate only through the Scriptures. What I am relating to you may not agree with what you have been taught or currently believe. That ’s OK. I am not asking you to accept what I believe or practice. I have had dreams that I know beyond the shadow of any doubt that the Lord was giving me a specific message. It was only for my consumption. I encountered situations which I knew the Lord was certainly present, and I saw his fingerprints when I arrived at the scene of action. I am not special or different. Any believer who walks with the Lord for any length of time will have these exposures too, unless he ignores them, discounts them, or goes on his merry way blindly.

The Bread of Life is fresh everyday. Just like the manna God gave to the children of Israel in the wilderness. It must be gathered anew everyday. So it is for me. I compare everything I read and what I do with the word of God. I recognize and accept the fact that everything created that can be shaken will be shaken, so that what cannot be shaken may remain (Hebrews 12:27-29). And my loyalty is first to Christ and to the word of God, not to what I have been taught, not to any person, and not to any church doctrine when issues arise. I let the chips fall where they may, and I walk circumspectly.

There is one thing I guard carefully in my search for the truth and when I read the Bible. Jesus had this conversation with the Pharisees. He said: “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:39f). This is a very sobering statement to me. In my search for the correct answers, church dogma does not supersede God’s word. When there is an issue, I will read God’s word very carefully, prayerfully, and discerningly again and again. I then take a stand on the side of the word of God, regardless. This requires strength and courage. I know God will give me both if I am trying to honor him, and he has. God’s word is very important, but more important than the word is Jesus himself. He is with us and in us. He is our life! Let him live his live through us (Colossians 1:27, 2:9, 3:1-4; Galatians 2:20; Romans 5:10; John 12:24), and let the furor of hell rip.

The battle is not for the stupid buildings belonging to the poor widows, nor holy entertainments, nor music, etc. It is for the souls of men in search of the truth, and those who stumbled upon the truth to grow to full maturity in Truth. The agents of the father of lies (Satan) will attempt to give you misinformation, keep you from finding or reading the right information, and keep you bound up in human doctrines and traditions. Satan has taken big advantage of our human natural tendency to resist change, dislike change, and willingness to fight against any change, regardless of the origin of such change, even if it is of the divine origin. I believe this is a classic case of “misplaced loyalty” as well as a “misplaced focus.”

Jesus brings changes. He changes us every day (2Corinthians 5:16-21), like it or not. Every man’s work will be tested by fire (1Corinthians 3:11-15), resulting in a change, like it or not. Everything that can be shaken, including our faith, our system of believes, our church doctrines, will be shaken, so that, that which cannot be shaken shall remain (Hebrews 12:26f), like it or not. God will himself shake everything to the core, in our lives and in his church. Those who resist change without proper discernment, will find themselves fighting against God (Acts 5:39), and will bring grief to themselves. “The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit” (John 3:8). Think not that you stumbled across this web site by accident. There will be change, big change, in your life, for your ultimate good, as you pursue Truth.

Chai Voraritskul
Feb. 23, 2004.

.

Chai is definitely correct when he states that Rick Warren's book, "The Purpose-Driven Life," is a #1 best-seller, as are most of Warren's other books, like "The Purpose-Driven Church." People are grabbing them up by the millions.

When religious books attain the degree of popularity that Rick Warren's books have (a popularity that seems to surpass the Bible itself), it may be helpful to review Matt. 10:22 (KJV). Consider this question: Does the world hate Rick Warren for the sake of Christ? Obviously not. Now review James 4:4 (KJV) and consider this question: Does the world find Rick Warren's material highly palatable and acceptable? Obviously so.

From Matt 10:22 and James 4:4, we can formulate the following axiom: The strength of biblical truth presented anywhere is inversely proportional to the world's tolerance and acceptance of it. Thus, the more that someone presents biblical truth, the more the world will hate that truth and that person. The more that someone perverts, softens, or dismisses biblical truth, the faster the world embraces him as one of its own. We CANNOT be a friend of the world AND a friend of God.

Draw your own conclusions why Rick Warren's material is so popular.

Don’t judge a book by its cover or title. Don’t buy a book because it is a #1 bestseller. Judge the quality of its contents. Read it with spiritual discernment. Reading a good book is like sitting down at a table to enjoy a good plate of seafood. I don’t need anyone to shell the clam, pick the fishbone, chew the food first and spoon-feed it to me. I don’t need anyone to tell me what to eat or what to spit out. I know how to leave anything I don’t want to put in my mouth on my plate, i.e., the shell, the bone, the tail, the head, and the “gook.” Thank you very much.

I read “The Purpose Driven Life” last summer and yellow-highlighted practically every page in this book. In spite of my best intention, I could not follow the instruction by reading just one chapter a day, for 40 days. Anyway, when I finished the book, in less than 40 days, I thought of the plate. I did not see any shell, bone, tail, the head, or anything I didn’t want to put into my body left on this plate of seafood. There weren’t any to start with. I could have picked the plate up and licked it clean too. The food was delicious!

Matthew 10:22 says: “All men will hate you because of me (Jesus), but he who stands firm to the end will be saved,” and James 4:4 says: “You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.”

Bill, you wrote and I quote: “From Matt 10:22 and James 4:4, we can formulate the following axiom: The strength of biblical truth presented anywhere is inversely proportional to the world's tolerance and acceptance of it. Thus, the more that someone presents biblical truth, the more the world will hate that truth and that person. The more that someone perverts, softens, or dismisses biblical truth, the faster the world embraces him as one of its own. We CANNOT be a friend of the world AND a friend of God. Draw your own conclusions why Rick Warren's material is so popular.”

You are saying that Rick Warren perverts, softens or dismisses Biblical truth, is this correct? Do not pontificate, do not blow smoke, and do not make blanket slanderous statements, Bill. Show the readers your specific bones of contention. Furthermore, the world does not buy this type of book, Bill. Only believers of Jesus buy this kind of book. And you characterized them as “the world,” and friends of the world by buying Rick Warren’s book.

Base upon your line of reasoning, any one who buys a bestseller book is a friend of the world, right? I think your axiom is erroneous, and your observation is warped. Let those who have read the book form their own impression about the book, and form their opinion about you, Dr. Bill Crump.

Let everyone think for oneself. Read my posts on this web site. Do I appear like someone who is playing a card game without a full deck? Does my elevator go all the way to the top floor? Are you playing with a full deck? Does your elevator go all the way to the top floor? You tell me.

Chai Voraritskul
Feb. 24, 2004.

I invite Chai to go to the link below and read the same article that I provided to Jonathan about Rick Warren's purpose-driven paradigm. Anyone like me who's read both "The Purpose-Driven Church" and "The Purpose-Driven Life" would do well to read Dennis Costella's article that meticulously analyzes Warren's purpose-driven growth strategy from a biblical viewpoint. This article and any of the articles by Paul Proctor on this subject can describe far better than I ever could what's really wrong with the CGM. These authors provide plenty of Bible verses, so Chai will have a field day gnawing on them.

The link: http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/foundation/fbcsdlbk.htm

Chai, I must rebuke you in Jesus' name. Please be very, VERY careful about using the term "slander" when it comes to describing anyone's posts on this site. I would advise that you tread VERY lightly here. Neither I, nor anyone here would ever think of slandering Rick Warren. Personally, I do not agree with his church strategy and wish to direct others away from its influence. But I do it through the Bible or direct readers to those who can. Regarding Matt. 10:22 and James 4:4, readers must take the truth of these verses and compare them against Warren's church growth strategy, or any church strategy, for that matter. Either this strategy brings a church closer to the world, or it brings a church closer to God. Readers must decide that for themselves. But I really advise that you NEVER presume to put words in anyone's mouth that he/she has not directly spoken. I don't think that you want readers to wonder whether you are "like someone who is playing a card game without a full deck" (your own words, Chai). From one Christian brother to another, please have some tact.

Thank you Dr. Crump.

An informed, and intelligent response was what I was looking for. I will certainly research these items.

Dear Jonathan,

Glad to have been able to suggest some study links. Below is the link to another excellent article which I hope you and anyone else interested in learning more about the CGM will find helpful. We can never read too many articles about this movement.

The article is entitled "THE CHURCH GROWTH MOVEMENT: AN ANALYSIS OF RICK WARREN'S 'PURPOSE DRIVEN' CHURCH GROWTH STRATEGY" by Dennis Costella of the Fundamental Evangelistic Association.

After attending one of Rick Warren's "Building a Purpose-Driven Church" seminars, Costella finds Warren's material disturbing and presents a biblical analysis of it.

http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/foundation/fbcsdlbk.htm

Dear Jonathan,

Glad to have been able to suggest some study links. Below is the link to another excellent article which I hope you and anyone else interested in learning more about the CGM will find helpful. We can never read too many articles about this movement.

The article is entitled "THE CHURCH GROWTH MOVEMENT: AN ANALYSIS OF RICK WARREN'S 'PURPOSE DRIVEN' CHURCH GROWTH STRATEGY" by Dennis Costella of the Fundamental Evangelistic Association.

After attending one of Rick Warren's "Building a Purpose-Driven Church" seminars, Costella finds Warren's material disturbing and presents a biblical analysis of it.

http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/foundation/fbcsdlbk.htm

A very compelling article, Dr. Crump.

I am a member of a New England coC that is losing members.

As is typical here in Catholic country, it's difficult enough to get potential members to think outside the Catholic mold, and listen to us, let alone keep them here once we can pique thier interest.

We have tried many ministries, and discussed many options to attract members. We are limited in resources, and personnel. We have not compromised the biblical truths in order to get the people in the door, and I am pleased to say that the group we currently have conducting business and spiritual matters, is a very Bible focused one.

Sadly we are not growing. But then again, we are trying very hard to do it correctly. We lost our quasi-charismatic evangelist for this very reason, and have resisted any knee jerk hiring of another to avoid future brushes with charismatic intentions.

We have also recently turned down appointment of an eldership to guide the church. This was done primarily because of our limited membership, and we didn't feel the people we could have appointed fit the biblical model.Interestingly, the few that did fit the biblical model turned appointment down. It was an intense debate. It had the potential to divide the church, but it did not. I credit this primarily to the very fact that we had a bible in every discussion about it, and spent much time looking at the scriptures in depth.

I believe that with patience, and an uncompromising hold on biblical truth, God will bring the growth we need. If he doesn't, there will be a reason for it, and we need to accept his will.

I need to do much study, and research to prepare myself, and others for the coming onslaught of compromise that some would try to say needs to happen for our survival as a church of Christ.

Even if we end up all alone in an empty building, I want to be able to stand before God on judgement day ans say I did what I could to hold to the truth.

Not as I define it. As God defines it.

As a New Englander, I am sure you know the story of the Rev John Robinson...when his congregation was persecuted in England, he took them to Leiden Holland and they just didnt grow there. So he didn't say "Let's start acting more like the Dutch with their liberal attitudes..." he put them on a ship (the Mayflower) and sent them to a new beginning. I am not saying you need to move to a remote area!! I am just saying that God was certainly leading those people through their lack of growth....maybe there is a different lesson for your congregation. My six years in a purpose driven church have come to an end and I am looking for a new (not purpose driven) church. The first Bible church I went to I was completely ignored (during the shaking hands no one looked me in the eye)...and I thought that one message that Mr Warren gets out (that is Biblical) is that each person matters to God. I disagree with the Purpose Driven church model because I have seen the abuse of authority at our church, disagree with church covenants and see that, in that model, any disagreement is followed by your being asked to leave (as we were). I believe that a discerning, careful church membership could use some of his ideas (care about people, be friendly, help your neighbors) without compromising. Unfortunately Rick Warren says his plan will not work without using the entire thing. Thankfully my husband and I are more in to God's plan than Rick Warren's. Our prayers are with you as your church procedes.

If you consider someone clapping their hands as entertaing or if you can find a negative twists on every single positive thing that might could possibly happen to a church then this website is just for you.
Maybe you can join Donnie, and the couple of others in heaven because right now according to them their are only going to be a handful there.

“What do you consider entertaining?” Good question. Since you have found out enough from this website that it is not for you, then, you should know.

You and the change agents may be loud, but you’re in the minority. Deal with the real issues and the perpetrators of church transformation. Transforming the church? Yeah, right … as if the will of God for the church really needed improvement by the will of Max, Ruby & Co. Why don’t you come to your senses and join the silent majority?

Don’t get me wrong. I clap a lot, too, when I’m alone or at a sport or entertainment event. But I don’t do or care to listen to the deafening programmed and rehearsed RHYTHMIC handclapping while I’m singing “Let Us Worship the Father.” You see, my friend, doing this sort of thing is still offensive and distracting to a lot of the folks who worship God reverently and in AWE. [The word “awe” means “an overwhelming feeling of wonder or admiration … a profound fear inspired by a deity”—that’s even a secular definition of the word.]

I think Jonathan’s initial post makes a lot of sense when he said: “I do agree that worship should not be gimmicky, and should not be a show to attract non-believers. If the gospels can't hold their attention, then the battle has been lost already.”

Donnie