I would like to suggest that this forum be shut down. It is an obvious and blatant attempt to justify and de-sin gossip. I pray that few find this site.

On the contrary, this site provides a wealth of information for those who wish to learn about the fallacies and pitfalls of the Church Growth Movement (CGM).

Unfortunately, when sincere folks come here needing information, too often they get swept into the maelstrom of the forums, by far the dominant feature of this site. Unfortunately again, these forums have degenerated into camps that have produced nothing but bickering, hostility, mud-slinging, and ill will. Therefore, since this site exists to warn everyone about the CGM, I suggest that only the forums be dropped. Let this site continue to promote the truth of those Bible-based warnings for which it was originally created.

Continue to provide links to many well-written articles by spiritually mature, discerning, and professional Christian writers who have thoroughly studied the CGM and have witnessed first-hand the spiritual wasteland that the CGM has created.

On the contrary, this site provides a wealth of information for those who wish to learn about the fallacies and pitfalls of the Church Growth Movement (CGM) {as well as any other erroneous dogma espoused by some members of the Church of Christ who claim to speak for the entire Church of Christ brotherhood. Is not this web site a trashing floor where truth can be elucidated?}.

Unfortunately, when sincere folks come here needing information, too often they get swept into the maelstrom of the forums, by far the dominant feature of this site. Unfortunately again, these forums have degenerated into camps that have produced nothing but bickering, hostility, mud-slinging, and ill will {True}. Therefore, since this site exists to warn everyone about the CGM {as well as other false doctrines}, I suggest that only the forums be dropped {and silence the voice of those who argue their points purely from the Scriptures and are in disagreement with your point of view}.

Let this site continue to promote the truth {as well as slanders} of those Bible-based warnings {as well as the teaching from Greek Mythology and ancient pagan Babylonian writings} for which it was originally created. Continue to provide links to many well-written articles by spiritually mature {and immature}, discerning {as well as slandering}, and professional Christian writers who have thoroughly studied the CGM and have witnessed first-hand the spiritual wasteland that the CGM has created.

{Blame not the wasteland on the Church Growth Movement. Wasteland occurs when the good news becomes bad news. Wasteland occurs when salvation is found in the right church instead of in Christ and Christ alone. Wasteland occurs when churches ignore the Spirit of Christ and shut him out of their lives. Wasteland occurs when the Church of Christ has been brain washed to believe that they are “the only Christians” instead of “Christians only.” Wasteland occurs when we continue to reject and split up within ourselves instead of accepting and respecting each other’s freedom on disputable matters within the church. Wasteland occurs when a church resists growth and would rather continue with the status quo and die. So you think CGM is to be blamed for the wasteland? Yah, right. Dead right!}

Chai Voraritskul
Feb. 23, 2004.

Chai quotes me and adds comments in parentheses: "I suggest that only the forums be dropped {and silence the voice of those who argue their points purely from the Scriptures and are in disagreement with your point of view}."

Chai's comments are as I expected. Of course, if the forums were dropped here (doubtful), it would also silence the voice of those who support the articles and information.

Isn't it ironic? CGM change agents invade many traditional churches rather than start their own from scratch, then brand as "divisive" those who oppose the changes and demand that opponents conform or leave. Yet CGM advocates have invaded these forums with divisive messages, which has only led to hostility. This is unfortunate. Therefore, I would suggest that we cancel the forums here and let the pro-CGMs start their own web site(s) to promote their own agenda there without forums. Then people could choose which site(s) to study and not get "swept into the maelstrom of the forums" at any site.

I'm sure that pro-CGMs would agree, unless they truly have divisive hearts.

Bill, I don’t know who are the CGM change agents you are talking about. I am a Christian. I do not represent anyone or speak for anyone, any more than you representing anyone or speaking for anyone, or do you think you do? I state my personal opinion and take my stand on different issues being discussed at this web site. Is what I am doing here divisive? Confront me then if what I say is wrong. I don’t have a problem participating in a forceful and engaging discussion.

Should you label a brother in the Lord whom you disagree with, a change agent, pro-CGM agent, or an apostate? I can come up with a label for you and others who differ with me just as easily too. I have done that freely in the past, but I have repented. I will never to do it again. Resting upon the Spirit and the mind of the Lord, I know I have sufficient wit and grace to deal with the issues without being offensive or disrespectful to those whom I disagree. I don’t care what others do. I don’t run their lives. They will have to answer to the Lord sooner or later.

What you proposed makes no sense! This forum is healthy and thriving. Why kill it with your bright idea? If you wish to post, post. If you don’t, don’t. Truth without love is brutal, but truth with love edifies. Those who can’t stand the heat should get out of the kitchen.

Chai Voraritskul
Feb. 23, 2004.

I would not label one a change agent or apostate simply because they did not agree with me. I would however have to say they should be marked as a change agent or apostate if they do not agree with the Bible.
The Apostle Paul tell us in Romans 16:17-18 Now I beseech you, brethern, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. We need to be made aware of those in the brotherhood who are caught up in the Change Agent movement and I applaude those who have the courage to expose them even when they are attacked for doing so.

I would not label someone a change agent or apostate simply because they disagree with me. However I believe they should be made known as such if they are not in agreement with what the Word of God teaches. The Apostle Paul addresses this in Romans 16:17-18 Now I beseech you, brethern, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly; and by good words and faie speeches decieve the hearts of the simple. I applaude those who have the courage to expose those who are teaching error even though they themselves are spoken evil of because of their stand for the truth. There are things taking place in congertations of the Lord's chuch that are wrong. We should do only those things which we have Bibical Authority for doing. We have no authority for hand clapping, musical instruments, praise groups, entertainment etc.

I suggest that you read the sowing of discord which led MADISON concerned members to begin a FORUM. By definition a forum is where people get to dialog the Word of God: Paul preached only in the evangelistic sense and he repudiated the Huper-apostles and confirmed that the Word is destroyed by exegesis or hermeneutics.

http://www.concernedmembers.com/index.html#about

Welcome to
ConcernedMembers.com

There are thousands of Churches undergoing hostile takeovers and being changed into a venue of "Holy Entertainment" by the "community church" movement.

"No one here will admonish anyone for worshipping God in what ever manner they believe to be correct. However, when someone subverts an existing Church by secrecy and deceit against the principles of it's founders and members...

...WE HAVE A PROBLEM!"

The below listings are links to various church member sites where the members discuss what's happening at their church, and learn about the problems causing division and take-overs.

While the Church Growth Movement is behind some of the problems, most are caused by anti-church of christ people even bragging about inflitrating and diverting. They even claim to more a "baptist" and still confiscate YOUR church. Others claim to be in agreement with the Christian Church but they will still steal the church houses of widows. Some of us would not watch a young girle raped in the streets without warning.

Part of the new movements is mind control: you lose your right to even ask JESUS a question. If you question the people who claim to be PROPHETS and APOSTLES why they are restoring the legalist, anti-Christ tithe, they will REMOVE you from any right to teach. If they bring in the MUSICA crowd you need to know that this means performing the role of SORCERY in the Greek World. Charismatic connects directly to destroying the minds of young boys to make the "fellow ministiers" if you know what I mean. Why should you not be interested in ANY TRUTH.

Thank God that the Concerned Members "permits" and encourages dialog which is being taken away: to question another person's belief is a TERMINAL SIN.

So, false doctrine should be refuted in those churches of Christ which have been CONFISCATED and the owners chased off. The Church Growth Movement is not the most important thing for some of us. So, just take what you can stomach, leave the rest, or don't read at all but the denial of FREEDOM of speech and the first ammendment might keep the BOAT from rocking but the writing professionals have their own CRAFT to peddle. Jesus called the Scribes which means sermon writers and pulic speakers. This is a primary MARK of cults. Keep on reading.

We WRESTLE with principalities and powers in high or heavenly places: the Bible and the Greek language proves that they can only be defeated by fishermen who don't wash their hands before eating: I have been there and done that. Reading the WORD and DIALOG was the pattern of the synagogues and it wasn't for weak stomachs.

The professionas STOLE Christianity just as they have churches: if you want to be warned about the METHODS they use read some stuff posted by the LAITY where they will WELCOME your rebuttal and will not "cast you out of the synagogue."

We will also warn you about church of Christ "scholars" who do a lot of WRITING but they cannot even quote Martin Luter without lying about him. Is that what you want. Read the books but Jesus came that we "teach that which is written." The very idea of EXEGESIS and HERMENEUTIS is a claim like the Pharisees that they have superior SPIRITUAL INSIGHT. Don't buy no "KoolAide.

Ken Sublett

Ken

Ken Sublett seems to imply that the forums are not really about church growth (??). I clearly got the impression that this site was created when Madison CoC decided to go "modern," and that it served to warn others not to follow Madison's example. Whatever the real reasons for their creation, the forums now appear to focus principally on the Church Growth Movement/Community Church Movement, along with isolated other topics.

Forums are a good source for dialogue, but only when both sides can present their discussions with maturity and tact. That is far from what exists now.

The STRAIGHT people at Madison began to flee for their lives when the MUSICA group claimed (according to Rubel Shelly) to "lead you into the presence of God."

I know the history and most of the people didn't know why they were taking FLIGHT. But the 100% historical fact is that MUSIC in religion and out of religion was always a weapon to cause FRIGHT to be peddled as SPIRITUAL. However, they knew and modern science knows that complex harmony produces the impulses of FIGHT, FLIGHT and/or SEXUALITY.

Music was and is the mind control method of injecting CHARISMA (a goddess) into people and of those who REMAIN, the "school of the Bible" has been turned into a "theater for holy entertainment." History will not allow you to escape the notion that you are being FRIGHTENED by music to make you BOND to the leader and if you can FEEL the impulse in the body it is not a HOLY SPIRITUAL influenec. A pipe organ was the earliest weapon: the low tones of a 32ft pipe and vibrato NAILED your feet to the floor while the high strings and nasel tones RIP your nerves to shreds.

First Amendment timeline

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?item=First_Amendment_timeline

Significant historical events, court cases, and ideas that have shaped our current system of constitutional First Amendment jurisprudence:

1641

The Massachusetts General Court drafts the first broad statement of American liberties, the Massachusetts Body of Liberties. The document includes a right to petition and a statement about due process.

1663

Rhode Island grants religious freedom.

1689

Publication of John Locke's Letter Concerning Toleration. It provides the philosophical basis for George Mason's proposed Article Sixteen of the Virginia Declaration of Rights of 1776, which deals with religion. Mason's proposal provides that "all Men should enjoy the fullest toleration in the exercise of religion."

[If the state cannot violate that right then assuredly no clergyman can.]

1708

Connecticut passes first dissenter statute and allows "full liberty of worship" to Anglicans and Baptists

The LIBERALS among us are not into CHURCH GROWTH except as a way for personal pride. They cannot tell the truth about the Bible and Church Growth groups still hold to the Bible as inspired: church of Christ banditos do not. Their favorite whipping boy and lied about person is John Locke. They claim that methods of determining authority derived from John Locke. But because they cannot tell the truth we know that John Locke is the "father" of both out political and religious liberty and the COMMUNITY or COMMUNE system cannot tolerate free speech.

John Locke:

http://www.piney.com/LockeTol.html

"For whatsoever some people boast of the antiquity of places and names, or of the pomp of their outward worship; others, of the reformation of their discipline; all, of the orthodoxy of their faith-
for everyone is orthodox to himself-

"these things, and all others of this nature, are much rather marks of men striving for power and empire over one another than of the Church of Christ.

"Let anyone have never so true a claim to all these things, yet if he be destitute of charity, meekness, and good-will in general towards all mankind, even to those that are not Christians,

"he is certainly yet short of being a true Christian himself.

"The kings of the Gentiles exercise leadership over them," said our Saviour to his disciples, "but ye shall not be so" (Luke 22. 25).

"The business of true religion is quite another thing.
It is not instituted in order to the erecting of an external pomp,

"nor to the obtaining of ecclesiastical dominion,

"nor to the exercising of compulsive force,

"but to the regulating of men's lives, according to the rules of virtue and piety. Whosoever will list himself under the banner of Christ, must, in the first place and above all things, make war upon his own lusts and vices.

"It is in vain for any man to unsurp the name of Christian, without holiness of life, purity of manners, benignity and meekness of spirit. "Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ, depart from iniquity" (II Tim. 2. 19). "Thou, when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren," said our Lord to Peter (Luke 22. 32).
It would, indeed, be very hard for one that appears careless about his own salvation

"to persuade me that he were extremely concerned for mine.

"For it is impossible that those should sincerely and heartily apply themselves to make other people

"Christians, who have not really embraced the Christian religion in their own hearts. If the Gospel and the apostles may be credited,

"no man can be a Christian without charity and without that faith which works, not by force, but by love.

MUSICA AND CANTUS AND MELODY in an external sense speak of hostile force. The result of that force in ancient paganism was to enfold young "priests" and "ministers" for their own use and abuse. THERE IS NO OTHER EVIDENCE.

That was the INBUILT sense from God which warns us that when we experience the THRILL impulse or try to measure the "goose bump quotient" if we are spiritual we will RUN FOR OUR LIVES. That is what FULLY CONSUMATED before the concerned members decided to fight back. I am quite certain that the people who ran for their lives knew the meaning of the Church Growth Cult.

Look at the MUSIC AND OCCULT connection: we we will add more:

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=150389&messageid=1077396184&lp=1077396184

Ken sublett