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Glen Gearhart
(no login)
207.119.201.42

Salvation by grace plus works

September 3 2007, 10:55 PM 

To say that works are necessary for salvation is a serious heresy, because it basically says that Christ's death on the cross is not good enough to completely save you. 1 John chapter 5 clearly states that you can know that you're saved. Paul makes it very clear in Romans, Galatians, and Titus that good works come as a result of salvation, but do not play a part in salvation.

James talks about good works that result from salvation. In other words, a truly saved person will do good works, while when Paul talks of works he means those futile efforts of a lost man to justify himself before God. Neither James nor Paul ever say that salvation is by grace plus works. In fact Paul adamantly says works and grace are mutually exclusive.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace; otherwise work is no more work.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us (past tense indicates we are saved if we trust Christ), by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

If we trust in our works to save us, then we can't be assured of salvation. That's the problem with a grace plus works salvation. But look at the following verses.

1 John 5:11-13 For this is the record that God hath given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life....

Can it be any clearer than that?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
65.1.199.60

Response is below

September 5 2007, 8:00 AM 

Response is below.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
63.84.81.90

Re: It is most concerning . . .

May 17 2004, 10:57 AM 

Remember that Israel's elders fired God an demanded a king, kingdom and worship like the nations. God picked kings to lead them into captivity and death: the sentence imposed at Mount Sinai when they practiced musical idolatry and LOST The Book of the Covenant.

Secondly, the Psalms were poetic records of their history. The Psalms were used "for our learning" and never in collective "worship."

The joyful noise is:

Qowl (h6933) kole; or qol kole; from an unused root mean. to call aloud; a voice or sound: - / aloud, bleating, crackling, cry (/ out), fame, lightness, lowing, noise, / hold peace, [pro-] claim, proclamation, / sing, sound, / spark, thunder (-ing), voice, / yell

You are free to do that 167 hours a week: sure even strip naked like David to make yourself vile but don't try it in "church" or you will appear CHARISMATIC which parses to "homosexual" even as all of the MUSICA or CANTSUS parses to MAGICA or soothsaying or EXEGETING or HERMENETING to, like Pharisees SILENCE THE VOICE OF GOD so you can PLEASURE yourself in violation of Romans 15.

Numbers 10:7 But when the congregation (Qahal=synagogue) is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm.

The Alarm is:

Ruwa (h7321)roo-ah'; a prim. root; to mar (espec. by breaking); fig. to split the ears (with sound), i. e. shout (for alarm or joy): - blow an alarm, cry (alarm, aloud, out), destroy, make a joyful noise, smart, shout (for joy), sound an alarm, triumph.

All of the MUSICA or CANTUS words speak of creating unholy PANIC to grind you into bits so that you will GIVE TITHES AND OFFERINGS. There is NO example of music in history which attributes anything mental or spiritual. Too bad you guys put your trust in the MINIMS when the MAXUMS define you of ANOTHER TRIBE.

The SYNAGOGUE existed as the "church" in the wilderness and it was NEVER called for charismatic, gone mad worship. Assemblies were called, as Jesus told you, to COME LEARN OF ME.

The JUDAS BAND were musical assasins: Judas Sicarri. Psalm 41 prophesied that Judas would not TRIUMPH OVER Jesus because he would be dead:

Ps.41:11 By this I know that thou favourest me, because mine enemy doth not triumph over me.

The JUDAS BAG was for "carrying the mouthpieces or reeds of wind instruments." He tried to keep his hands clean, get paid and still ASSINATE JESUS.

The Dead Sea Scrolls show that Psalm 41 means that the WARRIOR LEVITES (noise makers) would MOCK Jesus right up to the cross. Like the king/queen of Babylon who went back into Sheol with his/her harps and harpists to rot on a bed of maggots, Jewish history knows of NOW harp (or harpist) which survived out of thousands and thousands: they were consumed with fire probably just as will the HARLOT church and "her" music and musicians as spelled out in Revelation 18.

If you do that in the presence of a Holy God where worship means to "give heed to God's word" with reverence and Godly fear you are in trouble:

    FOR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE

You try that in a classroom of a HUMAN TEACHER and see how fast they can get the booby wagon for you. Can you really hold God in more contempt?

Ken




 
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Jerry Anderson
(no login)
66.191.30.232

Re: i was just surfing for c of c and found this

August 20 2004, 5:01 PM 


Hi,

I read you message and I was wondering; Do you really believe in luck?

Jerry

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
68.19.233.226

Do you really believe in luck?

August 23 2004, 3:42 AM 

We haven’t heard anymore since Anonymous initially posted the “surfer’s” thread almost six months ago. Just keep in mind, though, based on the beginning statement that it was a search for “church of [C]hrist news or happenings.” It wasn’t a search for a congregation with which to worship during a vacation.

Your question may never be answered unless we hear from this person. However, luck or not, s/he found this site and hopefully learned to “judge” this site fairly—that its objective is to impede the efforts of the change advocates in transforming the church of our Lord into just another denomination and to prevent the spread of this infectious spiritual disease in churches.

Donnie

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
65.1.199.60

“Salvation by grace plus works” (by Glen Gearhart)

September 5 2007, 8:02 AM 

This post is in response to Glen Gearhart’s post, “Salvation by grace plus works” (September 3 2007, 10:55 PM).

Statement: To say that works are necessary for salvation is a serious heresy, because it basically says that Christ's death on the cross is not good enough to completely save you. 1 John chapter 5 clearly states that you can know that you're saved. Paul makes it very clear in Romans, Galatians, and Titus that good works come as a result of salvation, but do not play a part in salvation.

Response:

    There must be a line of demarcation drawn between two separate occurrences or events: (1) CONVERSION and (2) Christian living AFTER conversion. Unless we are able to make that distinction, the discussions and disagreements regarding the issue of “grace plus works” will never end. I honestly would find it appalling for anyone to even suggest or think or believe that Christ’s death on the cross is not enough to completely save anyone.

    Of course, when one outside of Christ comes to know the truth and becomes a Christian—this being the conversion process—all his past sins are forgiven. Romans 3:23-25 clearly explains this—“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.”

    As one can see, the conversion prospect is NEVER required BEFOREHAND to do/produce “good works” or “works of righteousness.” One can be the world’s worst criminal prior to conversion. Is he required to do good works before he repents and is baptized IN ORDER TO receive redemption or forgiveness of sins in the blood of Christ? Of course, not!!!! (So, Glen, I will have to agree with you that good works are NOT necessary for salvation … but on one condition—SALVATION in reference to CONVERSION.) I think that when “conversion” is not in the equation, the expression “works of righteousness” being necessary or not necessary for salvation becomes nebulous to the mind that doesn’t understand where they [the good works] should belong.

    I agree that, according to I John, as you said, “… you can know that you’re saved.” In fact, Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly explains this— “For by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast

    However, and speaking of the second event—what occurs AFTER conversion—the book of I John also emphasizes the significance of: walking in the light, keeping His word, keeping His commandments. Does “keeping His commandments” not imply obedience as expected of Christians according to Heb. 5:8-9? Christ learned obedience and became the author of salvation to those that OBEY him. Doesn’t obedience imply “doing good works or works of righteousness”?

    Theologians often make the mistake by not understanding the contrast or subsequence in Ephesians 2:8-9 [already quoted above] AND Ephesians 2:10—“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto [TOWARD] good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” Please notice the word “FOR” at the beginning of verse 10. Verses 8 and 9 speak of the CONVERSION event; verse 10 refers to what is expected of the converted in Christian living. THE CHRISTIAN is to do good works—this speaks much more than good works being just the effect of salvation (conversion). There are numerous passages that support the necessity for the Christian to OBEY His commands … to do good works.

    While the Holy Scripture does not suggest that good works or works of righteousness are to be substituted for the blood of Christ in cleansing us from sins, nonetheless, we are commanded to OBEY. And what do you think would be the consequence of NOT obeying God’s commands? John 5:28-9—“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation..”


Statement:James talks about good works that result from salvation. In other words, a truly saved person will do good works, while when Paul talks of works he means those futile efforts of a lost man to justify himself before God. Neither James nor Paul ever say that salvation is by grace plus works. In fact Paul adamantly says works and grace are mutually exclusive.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace; otherwise work is no more work.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us (past tense indicates we are saved if we trust Christ), by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

If we trust in our works to save us, then we can't be assured of salvation. That's the problem with a grace plus works salvation. But look at the following verses.

1 John 5:11-13 For this is the record that God hath given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life....

Can it be any clearer than that?


Response:

    Again, CONVERSION is the salvation event during which an individual is redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and begins NEWNESS OF LIFE. The Christian receives eternal life in the sense that it is a promise or an inheritance. [“I am destined to inherit 2 million dollars when I reach the age of 75. Please, don’t let me die before then.” ] Numerous passages support the truth that everlasting life will be rewarded to the faithful in the end:

  • I John 2:25—“And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.”
  • Jude 1:21—“Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto [TOWARD] eternal life.”
  • Titus 3:7—“That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
  • Eternal life is an inheritance—Mark 10:17; Luke 10:25; 18:18; etc.
  • Mark 10:30—“But he shall receive … and in the world to come eternal life.”
  • Titus 1:2—“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;”
  • Titus 3:7—“That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
  • Romans 6:22—“But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life
  • James 1:12—“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.”
  • Rev. 2:10—“… be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life

    While doing good works or works of righteousness does not forgive sins (because only the blood of Christ does and can), still the New Testament is the plenary authority in directing Christians to obeying the commands of our Lord.

    The second chapter of James clearly emphasizes that contrary to many theologians’ claim that faith produces good works, faith may not necessarily produce good works. Consider the following verses:

      [17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? [26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also

    In summary, grace is God’s part and His offer for man’s redemption in the blood of Christ is available to anyone who wants to accept that offer. When one is ready to accept God’s free gift of salvation, never is he commanded to produce good works or works of righteousness prior to conversion. (As previously mentioned, the world’s worst criminal can be saved.)

    In Christian living and journey, faith is dead without good works. He matures and grows and still sins. But the Lord is still faithful and just to forgive his confessed sins and cleanse him from all unrighteousness (I John 1:9).

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Brother Cruz - Excellent Teaching On Grace and Works!

October 9 2010, 1:46 AM 

I have been reading several posts/comments, including older ones like this one, to better know my brothers and sisters in Christ and have respectful dialogue with them. So basically, I wanted you to know I appreciate your stand for grace and truth.

-Sonny

 
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Todd Atnip
(no login)
65.82.131.225

No one bothers to really study Acts 15 and Galatians

May 10 2011, 1:50 PM 

This issue has really been on my mind lately given the nature of a Bible Study here in Bowling Green, KY on "worship issues" that finally devolved into a debate on this issue:

Why does each new generation of legalistic Christians repeat the mistakes of the Jews/Pharisees Paul, Peter, and James encountered in Acts 15. Then it was Jesus PLUS Moses, or if you like, Grace PLUS circumcision. Paul in Galatians 5 in response to the those listening to the Judaizers teaching the grace PLUS works theology-

1(A)It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore (B)keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a (C)yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, (D)Paul, say to you that if you receive (E)circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

3And I (F)testify again to every man who receives (G)circumcision, that he is under obligation to (H)keep the whole Law.

4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have (I)fallen from grace.

Replace circumcision above and fill in your favorite work, requirement, or worship hangup in 2011. Paul tells us how to fall from grace - add something to it.

The fact of the matter is, legalism still exists because there are Christians who want it to. They want a list of dos and dont's to follow so they don't have to think about or work out their salvation in any way. It has always been much easier to paint the outside of the house than deal with the carnage inside.

This entire issue was settled very simply and very clearly in Acts Chapter 15. Look at Peter's words:

7After there had been much (R)debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days (S)God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of (T)the gospel and believe.

8"And God, (U)who knows the heart, testified to them (V)giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

9and (W)He made no distinction between us and them, (X)cleansing their hearts by faith.

10"Now therefore why do you (Y)put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which (Z)neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

11"But we believe that we are saved through (AA)the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

Peter very simply says that we are doing nothing but asking God if he really meant what he said about salvation through grace alone by "testing" him in this. Verse 11 can't be any clearer.

 
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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.34

good thoughts

May 10 2011, 2:14 PM 

The Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness was a one piece pattern:

INCLUSIVE of Rest (from), reading and rehearsing the Word of God (only)
EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing.

http://www.piney.com/Synagogue1.html

That existed for the godly people who never attended the sacrificial slaughter Christ said God had not commanded (Isaiah 1; Jer 7)

Christ approved of and attended the synagogue: He stood up to read the text and quite decently sat down to allow questions or comments.

He added the Lord's Supper which is another teaching or showing forth act: the only commanded preaching.

It was and is impossible to obey the direct command to "teach that which is written for our our learning" and be MUSICAL which means singing and playing and dancing.

That was changed by John Calvin who permitted some radical RE-writing of psalms (only) to be sung in unison (only) as Paul commanded in Romans 15.

A musical instrument is "a machine for doing hard work" mostly in making war and creating the shock and awe of LADED BURDEN Jesus outlawed. So, when people IMPOSE musical instruments they are imposing a WORK which they believe and claim can replace Jesus as the only mediator and "lead you into the presence of God." And since the plucking words like PSALLO include "driving away from a family" those who impose this legalism KNOW and plan to drive away up to 1/2 of the "owners" and still replace them by attracting those who can be seduced and deceived by music.

Remember: a TWO PIECE PATTERNISM

Teaching with one mind and one mouth
and the Lord's Supper which is an evangelizing act.

Everything else was added to fleece the lambs or to control them with goose-clapping.

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

No One Has Figured Him Out Yet

May 10 2011, 4:26 PM 

Todd,
Pay no mind to Ken. If you ask him about a bus, he will tell you about anything musical being evil. If you ask him about how the weather is in Hohenwald, TN he will accuse you of being a musicator.
He doesn't pay any mind to what is posted. He just enjoys himself immensely.

 
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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.18

more stuff

May 10 2011, 6:53 PM 

8"And God, (U)who knows the heart, testified to them (V)giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

9and (W)He made no distinction between us and them, (X)cleansing their hearts by faith.

10"Now therefore why do you (Y)put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which (Z)neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?


"THE FAITH" of Jesus Christ also purified pigs. Do you want to rest on that?

Salvation means the gift of "A" holy spirit or "A" good conscience. In 2 Corinthians that means that Jesus has accepted us as DISCIPLES. The only curriculum for STUDENTS is "what Jesus commandedto be taught."He commanded those who were NOT CEREMONIALLY impure "dogs"to be baptized. They did not have to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses to qualify for being added to His church.

THAT is the subject: not a one plan step of salvation.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
98.87.220.98

Re: No One Has Figured Him Out Yet

May 10 2011, 9:22 PM 

Todd, I hope you will make your own evaluation of Ken's writings and not be influenced by anything Dave says about them. Dave doesn't understand what Ken is talking about and therefore feels compelled to smear him.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.37

more

May 11 2011, 3:11 PM 

A Christian is a disciple of Christ: the curriculum is the prophets by the Spirit OF CHRIST and the prophesies made more perfect by Jesus of Nazareth.

The command for the synagogue or church from the wilderness was to read and rehearse the Word of God.
This pattern was exampled by Jesus, the apostles and by clear definitions of the assembly.
A Christian does not judge the Scripture: that would be a terminal sin: A Christian reads and understands the Word.

Most people as active agents of disobedience lift proof texts knowing that the foolish will pay them for lies.
The SUBJECT must be understand by the honest teacher.
The SUBJECT of purification by faith is:
......The obedience of THE FAITH rather than obedience of THE LAW.
The only conclusion is that the Jews could not forbid salvation at baptism to Gentiles.
If you use the message to concoct a ONE STEP PLAN OF SALVATION then you defacto call the Spirit of Christ who defined water baptism as the CHOICE OF GOD as the way for an honest believer to request to be made a disciple of CHRIST: Preachers have nothing else to say and Christ in Isaiah 58 outlawed the saying of it because God's ways are NOT the ways of the false preacher who sells the free water of the Word (Isaiah 55) by adding his own dogmas: Jesus called them Scribes and Pharisees or hypocrites and named people who use rhetoric, singing or playing named in Exekiel 33.

You REALLY have to be wary of anyone who makes it their profession (with no certificate of need) to tell people that none of the other passages connected to remission of sins, salvation, the gift of A holy spirit or A good conscience, being added to the church and on and on are big fat lies and THEY should not be a disciple of THOSE passages.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,
......and the preaching of Jesus Christ,
......according to the revelation of the mystery,
......which was kept secret since the world began,
Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest,
......and by the scriptures of the prophets,
......according to the commandment of the everlasting God,
......made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:27 To God only wise, [There is only one God Being]
......be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. (Made to be both Lord and Christ>
......Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.


 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Come Into the Light

May 11 2011, 3:21 PM 

"A Christian does not judge the Scripture: that would be a terminal sin: A Christian reads and understands the Word."

Ken, what is the difference between UNDERSTANDING and INTERPRETING the Word?
It seems that you claim to have an understanding of the Word where everyone else just interprets the Word.
Your claim of judging the Scripture is without merit. Who has claimed to do so?

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.240.241.153

Re: Come Into the Light

May 11 2011, 5:06 PM 

If you don't understand someone, why smear him? Dave smears Ken and others with whom he disagrees because he feels insecure. Smearing people gives Dave a false sense of security.

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Down Boy!

May 12 2011, 12:14 AM 

Heel Bill!

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.240.208.200

Re: Down Boy!

May 12 2011, 4:06 PM 

Dave forgot to put a comma between "Down" and "Boy" and between "Heel" and "Bill." Putting "curses" on people has made Dave oblivious to correct punctuation. wink.gif

 
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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.18

Can't define church

May 12 2011, 2:19 PM 

There is no reason that any modern preacher or scholar does or can know the meaning of ekklesia, synagogue or Church of Christ defined in the wilderness and empowered by Jesus Christ who as Spirit "shed forth what you see and hear" at Pentecost.

The commission was to make disciples: disciples are students: the curriculum is the Prophets (by Christ) and the promphecies made more perfect by Jesus Christ. The church is built upon that foundation of the Prophets (by Christ) and by Jesus as the personified Christ speaking ONLY through the apostles.

While the social gospel is always a tempting diversion for preachers who don't know what means "church" they are NOT remotely related to or the task of Christ. Ephesians 4 says that gifted men were to EQUIP people for the ministry which is an individual responsibility.

Extra-church pr Para-church groups intentionally draw away people from the Word of Christ. This is shouted throughout the Bible but leaders of INSTITUTES are not supposed to catch on;

[347d] such is their lack of education--
......put a premium on flute-girls
......by hiring the extraneous voice of the flute at a high price,
......and carry on their intercourse by means of its utterance.

But where the party consists of thorough gentlemen who have had a proper education,
......you will see neither flute-girls nor dancing-girls nor harp-girls,
......but only the company contenting themselves with their own conversation,
......and none of these fooleries and frolics--
......each speaking and listening decently in his turn,


Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime
......were written for our learning, that we through patience
......and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Romans 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation
......grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth
......glorify God, even the Father
......of our Lord Jesus Christ.


The temptation to force the School of Christ to support the agenda of the uninformed preacher, like all of the hypocritic arts, intends to divert people away from the Word of Christ to follow the EXTRA patternism of the unauthorized and unfunded "pastor person." Broadway has a Shellyite for pastor person and is always listed with the "progressives" who have progressed back to Babylon as John promises in Revelation 17-18.

You notice that they always BOAST about their WORKS.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

The English Cop Slips!

May 12 2011, 6:57 PM 

Doesn't need punctuation between "down" and "boy."
"Down boy" Can be a fragmented sentence, just as "Down! Boy!" Are fragmented sentences.

Give it up William. You're just not that good at it.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.209.2

Don't Smear What You Don't Understand

May 13 2011, 1:23 AM 

Dave still hasn't learned. Use a comma to set off proper and common nouns that are directly addressed. This was covered in the SGP thread. Go back and review it.

Incorrect: "Down boy!" or "Boy down!" (a command)
Correct: "Down, boy!" or "Boy, down!" ("Boy" is directly addressed and is set off by a comma.)

Incorrect: "Heel Bill!" or "Bill heel!" (a command)
Correct: "Heel, Bill!" or "Bill, heel!" ("Bill" is directly addressed and is set off by a comma.)

Incorrect: "Ditch the god complex Dave!" or "Dave ditch the god complex!" (a command)
Correct: "Ditch the god complex, Dave!" or "Dave, ditch the god complex!" (The same principle applies to "Dave," who is directly addressed.)

"Down" and "heel" can also be used as one-word commands, but a comma is not needed if there's no indication that any noun is addressed directly: "Down!" "Heel!"

I don't expect Dave to understand this, but there you have it for those who are not obtuse. If Dave wants to continue to embarrass himself by showing his ignorance of English spelling, grammar, and punctuation, that's fine with us.

 
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This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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