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PPB
(no login)
70.116.84.97

Re: He's still at it!

May 22 2006, 12:37 AM 

B...

I guess the Bible wasn't entertaining enough for these people? This is probably the saddest thing I have heard in a long time. And that you would even hint that it was "okay" to sit around in a classroom and use some old tv show as an example of Christian study is ridiculous in the extreme. Not everything that occurred on that show was "christian".

Why should I care about a show's teachings? What does that show have to do with God's Word? So what if it taught some basic behavioral lessons? Chalk it up to one more show your children can watch without supervision. There were several shows that taught the same premise - What about Lassie? or Flipper? Oh, I know...the Howdy Doody Show. Wait...I wonder what Rin Tin Tin or The Lone Ranger can teach us that the Bible can't? I guess I need to start re-watching Tonto to see if he can teach me anything I just couldn't learn from reading the Bible. Talk about short attention spans...

What in the world are we coming to when a tv show is the "pattern" we are learning from? Really, just throw out the Bible, you've made it about as useless as any other fictional book.

That you can't see the problem with this issue is scary...very, very scary.


P.S.

B...Thought I would help you out and present a new lesson plan for you based on the Lone Ranger Creed. (Though I for one, find Matthew Chapter 5 requires much higher standards and is more interesting than anything Hollywood could ever create.)


Lone Ranger Creed -
"I believe that to have a friend,
a man must be one.

That all men are created equal
and that everyone has within himself
the power to make this a better world.

That God put the firewood there
but that every man
must gather and light it himself.

In being prepared
physically, mentally, and morally
to fight when necessary
for that which is right.

That a man should make the most
of what equipment he has.

That 'This government,
of the people, by the people
and for the people'
shall live always.

That men should live by
the rule of what is best
for the greatest number.

That sooner or later...
somewhere...somehow...
we must settle with the world
and make payment for what we have taken.

That all things change but truth,
and that truth alone, lives on forever.

In my Creator, my country, my fellow man."

The Lone Ranger

 
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B
(no login)
70.232.97.213

Re: He's still at it!

May 23 2006, 4:28 PM 

Thanks for reenforcing my point with the Lone Ranger creed. It doesn't take away from scripture. It is just an aid to help people with scriptural principles.

Sure, there were un-Christian things on the AGS. There were plenty of un-Christian things in scripture, too. It is simply a tool for teaching. It is no different than a sermon illustration for adults or the use of puppets with kids or a parable from Jesus to his disciples. It is the use of a story to make a point. There's nothing at all wrong with that.

Of course, we can stick to the usual C.O.C. playbook and try to ignore our culture and somehow remain relevant to the conversation.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.217.163.119

Re: He's still at it!

May 24 2006, 10:41 AM 

I expect PPB to respond herself, but I gather that her illustration of “The Lone Ranger Creed” was to demonstrate its morality, similar to the AGS, but its paucity of Christianity, also similar to the AGS. And as we’ve said before, being moral is not necessarily synonymous with being Christian.

Only two elements of the LR Creed mentioned “God” or “Creator”: “That God put the firewood there but that every man must gather and light it himself” and “In my Creator, my country, my fellow man.” Are these references inherently “Christian”? Again, Jews and Muslims believe in “God” and “Creator,” but they do not believe that Christ is the Savior, the Son of God. The essence of Christianity is Christ, which includes morality. Non-Christian beliefs and faiths usually also embrace morality, but they do not embrace Christ. Having morals is not synonymous with being Christian.

Neither the AGS nor the LR teach what people must do to become Christians, how to obey Christ, that they must repent and confess Christ, that they must be baptized by immersion for remission of sins. Those shows teach neither of the Lord’s Supper nor of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, nor of His resurrection. Once when discussing a sermon topic, Opie asked what “seek and ye shall find” meant. Andy stumbled around and couldn’t give a proper answer, because he really didn’t know what it meant either. The scene passed on to other matters. And shows like that are supposed to teach Christianity? The AGS had one episode devoted to Christmas in its entire series, and that was primarily about a secular Christmas party at the jail with Barney dressed as a skinny Santa. As you may recall, it had a “Scrooge” surrogate in lonely Ben Weaver, who “reformed” and brought everyone gifts from his store. Andy and Ellie Walker the druggist did sing one carol, “Away in a Manger.” Lots of morality and soft sentiment but only vague hints at Christianity there.

“B” seems to justify using the AGS as a teaching tool because he alleges that there are plenty of “un-Christian” things in Scripture as well as the AGS. A more accurate statement is that there are far more things definitively “Christian” in the New Testament than there ever could be in the AGS or any other TV sitcom or drama.

It’s senseless to resort to worldly tools that appeal to our culture but that skirt around or present remote shadows of things “Christian,” as the AGS and other TV shows do. It’s far better to stick to and teach from the original Word, the New Testament itself, which is hardly a "playbook."



 
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B
(no login)
70.232.78.101

Re: He's still at it!

May 25 2006, 2:00 PM 

You guys can't seem to see the forest for the trees.

No one is suggesting replacing scripture with the Andy Griffith Show. No one is suggesting the the AGS is the source of all truth. No one has suggested that one should consult Opie for the plan of salvation or check with Goober on how to worship. No one is suggesting that the AGS was inspired by God or should become part of the canon.

It is simply another method of illustrating Biblical truths. Used without scripture, it is just another T.V. show (although more wholesome than most). Used as a method to illustrate scripture, it is a useful tool.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
66.199.28.132

Re: He's still at it!

May 25 2006, 4:46 PM 

So according to your argument, Paul shouldn't have used the alter to the unknown god since it was cultural and not scriptural...at least not before Acts 17! The idea of using TAGS isn't to base your theology on Opie and Andy, but to use it as a starting point for Bible based discussion. I personally know that it can also be a good first experience for those who would never set foot in a church of Christ otherwise. Isn't that a good thing? Of course if you have been to a class before you already know these things. Your argument and the website as a whole does remind me of Barney acting as an expert about things he has no knowledge of...nip it...nip it in the bud!


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.217.164.201

Re: He's still at it!

May 25 2006, 10:50 PM 

"Anonymous": "The idea of using TAGS isn't to base your theology on Opie and Andy, but to use it as a starting point for Bible based discussion."

Folks just don't seem to realize that the starting point for any Bible-based discussion, especially in Sunday school of all places, is not with popular TV characters like Andy, the Lone Ranger, Superman, angel Jonathan Smith, Mr. Ed, or Howdy Doody, but with the Bible itself. Get to the heart of the matter instead of fumbling and spinning wheels with TV shows that hint at Christianity but never quite get to first base.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.19.67.61

<i>Highway to Heaven</i>: Teaching Tool?

May 25 2006, 2:10 PM 

Instead of using The Andy Griffith Show as a Sunday school teaching tool, why not use a TV drama with an angel in it, like Highway to Heaven (HtH)? Characters Jonathan Smith, an angel on "probation" of all things, and ex-cop Mark Gordon run around fulfilling do-good "assignments" from God, Whom both refer to as "The Boss."

The show is even "relevant" to modern culture, because Jonathan and Mark are not above using "mild" profanity, such as an occasional "damn" or "that's a hell-of-a this or that" when they become angry. An angel using some expletives to "relate" to modern culture!

Yes, Jonathan and Mark serve others and help the needy, but you won't hear the name of Jesus ever mentioned on that show (come to think of it, the only time I ever heard "Jesus" mentioned on the AGS was when Andy and Ellie sang that one-time Christmas carol). And the name "God" takes a back seat to a "cool" but less reverent appelation of "The Boss," which sounds less "churchy," religious, and austere. Similar to the AGS, HtH doesn't teach much of anything about Christianity, obedience to the New Testament, baptism, or definitive biblical doctrine. It teaches morality, peppered with a few expletives, and that's about it.

People need to learn Christianity from the New Testament, not from the pop culture of TV sitcoms and dramas that occasionally present faint shadows of it.

 
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B
(no login)
70.238.52.123

Re: <i>Highway to Heaven</i>: Teaching Tool?

May 25 2006, 9:47 PM 

Again, no one is suggesting the replacement of the New Testament.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.217.161.206

Re: <i>Highway to Heaven</i>: Teaching Tool?

May 26 2006, 9:31 AM 

"B": "Again, no one is suggesting the replacement of the New Testament."

And again, the place to begin a Bible study is with the Bible itself. The Bible needs no augmentation or supplementation from pop culture, especially TV shows which, again, vaguely hint at Christianity but never quite get to first base.

 
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Charles
(no login)
50.76.159.69

Are We Reaching The Lost?

October 7 2013, 5:35 PM 

Just curious how many unchurched folks you all have baptized into Christ in the last 5 years?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Are We Reaching The Lost?

October 7 2013, 6:07 PM 

Sorry, but I am to OLD to be an EVANGELIST. Their task was defined INCLUSIVELY by Jesus:
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matthew 28:19 GO ye therefore,
and TEACH all nations,
baptizing them in the name [SINGULAR] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


We call that the LOGOS or Regulative Principle. Since the mega mouths of the mega churches shout HELL NO, WE WON'T GO then I have to do the only thing I know how to do. I just posted a part of today's work here.

http://www.piney.com/2.Timothy.4.Shall.be.Turned.unto.Fables.html


 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.244.89

Re: Are We Reaching The Lost?

October 7 2013, 6:18 PM 

Just curious as to how many people have read this site and have been baptized into Christ since its inception.

 
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Jack Mann
(no login)
72.49.62.71

Re: <i>Highway to Heaven</i>: Teaching Tool?

May 26 2006, 2:44 PM 

Dr. Crump, the Lone Ranger was for "justice." I often sat around by old RCA, and listen to the anouncer say: "From down the path comes the thundering hoof beat of the great horse silver, the Lone Ranger rides again!"

Good Doctor, the Lone Ranger was more than just a masked man to the kids of my day. He rode for peace and justice. His justice was to see that men kept the law of the territory.

You see, you could teach a New Testament class on "peace."
But, I would like to hear you take the connotation of Lone Ranger "justice," and apply it to New Testament "Justification." True, the Lone Ranger "reconciled" men to justice by a six gun and silver bullets, not sure if he and Tonto ever heard a sermon by Campbell on "baptism," or "righteousness," but we are not to judge a man on a white horse, riding with an Indian scout....Wouldn't be politically correct.....(-).

You could instruct your New Testament class on how Jesus reconciled men to justice and righteousness in a dying world by using a Cross. You could incorporate Romans 5:9; 3:21-26 in your text. But, I would like to hear a lesson taught by a man of your eminence using 2 Cor. 5:18-21 and correlating Paul's words here with James 2:23,24.
Hi-ho Silver, ....awayyyyyyy!

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.19.65.56

Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 27 2006, 9:36 AM 

As John has just told us, probably without actually realizing it, you can teach a Sunday school lesson on peace and justice using all the biblical references you can muster, using the New Testament as the sole Authority, and not once resort to any pop-culture gimmicks such as classic TV shows that vaguely hint at Christianity but never quite get to first base.

Morality, kindness, goodness, justice, helping others, Mom's real apple pie, and real ice cream are all so very good (except the latter can be a real problem for those with lactose intolerance). The kicker is that none of them alone or together is/are synonymous with Christianity. They can be good products of Christianity, but as I said earlier, even agnostics, atheists, and ax murderers (a bit of alliteration) can have "good" qualities and remain quite spiritually lost--unless they repent and follow and obey Jesus and the New Testament.

No matter how earnestly and vainly you try to rationalize using classic TV shows, no matter how hard you lobby for them, the fact remains that you just won't find anything more than perhaps a few, vague shadows of Jesus and the New Testament in TAGS or LR or Mr. Ed or Bozo the Clown or in any "justice" shows like Hawaii Five-O or Law and Order, because those shows were neither built nor based on Jesus and the New Testament. They were built and based on entertainment with some morality and sentiment thrown in. Anything more read into those shows is just shadow boxing.

A geometry principle states that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. The shortest distance is not a series of detours. The shortest distance between man and salvation is a straight line to Jesus and the New Testament. By taking unnecessary detours along the pop-culture-TV-show highways, one may fail to find his way to the Final Destination.

 
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Jack Mann
(no login)
72.49.62.71

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 28 2006, 12:56 AM 

Good Doctor, you have once again danced around the teaching of "Justification." I asked you to "teach" from Romans 5:9; 3:21-26. Correlating 2 Cor. 5:18-21 with James 2:23-24.

You speak of a "straight line," yet you dance in circles when you have the opportunity on this forum to "teach."
This is what Jesus commanded...."go teach and make disciples." You dance when I have asked you to teach on John 20:21-23 (what manifestation of the Spirit was this?) Please, correlate this with Acts 1:1-2. You dance when I have asked you to teach on the standard of judgment in Matthew 25:31-46. Is this salvation by works? if not, please explain why I need to visit the sick, begin a prison ministery, or feed the hungry to "sit on the King's right hand" as one of the "righteous."
You dance when I have asked you teach on Sanctification from 1 Cor. 6:11; 1 Thess. 5:23; Eph. 2:10; Romans 8:29.
You dance when I have asked you to teach on the subject of "generation" found in Matthew 3:7; 12:34; 23:33. Acts 2:40. You sir, have more moves than Fred Astaire.

There is more ways than one to be a "Change Agent." One is being ignorant to the teachings of Jesus and his Apostles on Why the Cross? Why Justification? Why Regeneration and Santification involve a change in man's actual condition.

Now you can teach Doctor....Your class awaits your scholarship...(-).

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.217.161.37

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 28 2006, 3:55 PM 

John gloats and delights in believing that I gave a "dance-answer" about "justification." He would have just cause to smirk if I had truly attempted to humor him on that subject. But I simply ignored his demand. My postings on this thread have dealt with whether or not classic TV shows are or are not appropriate teaching tools for Sunday school. Yet John marches in, switches horses, and demands that we wander off to a topic of biblical "justification." Typical change agent tactics.

For some reason, John is obsessed with "justification." One might think that he's trying to find spiritual justification, but I don't think so. I've noticed in other threads that he also frequently demands that people discuss his pet subject, regardless of the topic at hand.
When people comply, it's John's custom to belittle and demean the answers he receives, because such answers usually don't match his own views. Then he provides his own dissertation about "justification."

Based on his contemptuous attitude toward this web site, it is clear that John's only motive for bringing up "justification," or any other topic for that matter, is not civil discussion but to smear and ridicule those whose biblical views differ from his.

 
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PPB
(no login)
70.116.84.97

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 28 2006, 11:45 PM 

B,

That you are defending such a ridiculous excuse for a classroom lesson is beyond my comprehension. Why, oh why do I care what Opie and Andy did? I don't care if they prayed through the entire show - its still just a TV show written by people that didn't always believe in God's full Word (or Jesus).

Is the Bible just too boring for you? Not relevant enough? If so, then why are you reading it? It goes to show how little historical information you know if you believe our culture is all that different from Jesus' time.

You can make your excuses all day long, but I've been down the road you are on and realized how shallow and wrong it is. You are not helping spread the gospel. You are not helping teach the Word as God commanded. You are not helping fellow Christians by using such silliness to explain God's Word. It isn't God's word. It was never intended to spread God's Word and it was never intended to be a biblical teaching resource.

It's a hollywood TV show!!!! Hello???? Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees!

This issue is so juvenile and so satan-centered, that I can't even respond anymore. It makes me physically sick to think that the church has sunk this low in it's classroom references. I am so glad I am not the one who will have to stand before Jesus and explain it.

Wow, the sciptures according to Andy...what will they lower themselves to next?


 
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PPB
(no login)
70.116.84.97

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 29 2006, 12:23 AM 

Dear Jack,

Please don't take offense, but your postings have become slightly...

I've read and watched you try to "box in" Dr. Crump, yet to no avail. Though I doubt you see that yourself. You keep trying to twist a subject into your own "teaching lesson" in which there is no parallel. I'm wondering what exactly you are attempting to get out of Dr. Crump? I find myself questioning your basic premise and motive.

Dr. Crump has been treading a straight line this whole time by maintaining the issue at hand. Can you do the same? Can you please stick with the issue and stop trying to get Dr. Crump to address verses of your own desire and that are off-topic? Truly, it does get a little irritating to be pulled off the subject for no apparent reason.

The subject here is why a church would need to lower themselves to the usage of a TV show to teach/explain Christianity. A show that never addressed Christianity nor abided by the scriptures.

Would you care to address that point and stay on it? Explain how the Lone Ranger could teach me something about God's word? Do they mention Jesus? Do they mention God? Do they mention scriptures? Do they ever relate something to the Bible? Do they?

That is the point. These shows did/do NOT teach God's word. They incorporated basic moral principals known the world around - no matter the religion (Hindu, Muslim, Budhist, Wicca, etc). Principals developed to prevent chaos in societies. To bring order and safety - no matter if they even had a religion. If you want to study the history of morals, fine...use real historical references. But don't lower yourself and the church to the study of how a silly TV show had A FEW of the behaviors commanded by God. Wow! Call the press!

It goes to show how shallow we have become. How much we need to be entertained. It's called a "short attention span". We can't expect our fellow Christians to actually sit down and study the REAL BIBLE! That would be too boring, too old-fashioned, too serious. Oh, wait - to eye-opening to the real truth. Now I get the premise behind such silly lessons. Those silly change-agents, they really do know how to water-down the scriptures. Golly-gee whiz!

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
72.49.62.71

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 29 2006, 12:35 PM 

Well P B, since I can't get the good Doctor to "teach," and you seem to be somewhat of an entertainer yourself: how about you giving us a "study" of the "natural man" in 1 Corinthians 2:14. If the good Doctor has to let a woman defend his character....go for it...!

As you are aware (I hope), the Calvinist use this text in defending their theory of "Total Depravity." Their are a number of Calvinist who drop in on this forum....How about you teaching what Paul was referring to here in his letter to the church at Corinth.....Now, don't come up with the lame excuse that I am trying to "box" you in. Peter said, to "always be ready to give an answer to every man that asks you."

You seem to be an expert of exegetical research on Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16...You stand ready to defend the gospel on music in the church. Now, have a shot at the "natural man" of 1 Corinthians in the church. Inform the reader and the Calvinist why Paul would need to address this group of Christians on their ignorance. You can use the "REAL BIBLE" in your teaching.


 
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Joel
(no login)
72.154.196.249

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 29 2006, 2:30 PM 

Why PPB and Dr. Crump, can’t you see? You’re out of tune with the new generation. The new generation is highly visual; They are into tv, movies, videos, video games. Studying straight from the bible is too IRRELEVANT, LEGALISTIC, BORING, AND NON-ENTERTAINING. Besides if studies are done from the actual scriptures, people might run across unsavory teachings such as condemnation of divorce and remarriage without scriptural reason, condemnation of homosexuality, examples of breaking bread on the first day of the week, or scriptures that tell us to “Fear God and keep his commandments for this is the whole duty of man”. Such passages do not bode well for agents who want to promote freedom and ecumenical acceptance, watered down religion, and their own agenda. Weening the Church off the holy scriptures and substituting entertaining, mindless tv sitcoms is much more conducive to teaching their own preferred brand of unoffensive, politically correct, Christianity LITE.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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