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PPB
(no login)
70.116.84.97

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

June 1 2006, 8:08 AM 

Joel,

You are so right...they just might learn what God intended them to learn. The shock!!!!

B,

Fann's comment is exactly what is wrong with this issue. If you cannot see the shallowness in his teachings and how he is relying on the show, then I can't help you. Sad is the only thing I can say. By the way, comparing parrables to TAGS lessons is quite funny. I don't remember anything in TAGS teaching us about the road to Heaven and what can/can't get us there. Most of Jesus' teachings involved people and how their actions determined their entry into Heaven. Hmmm. You really can't see the difference, can you?

Jack,

Are you ok? You seem slightly obsessive. Not sure what you are wanting us to get at...

Dr. Crump -

good points. B just doesn't want to hear - talk about being closed-minded. Pot calling the kettle black...


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.217.163.170

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 29 2006, 2:54 PM 

PPB, John/Jack has nothing of value to offer about the inappropriateness of classic TV shows as teaching tools in Sunday schools. Hence, his penchant for going off-topic and abusing Scripture to justify doing so (cf. Peter). Despite your hard-hitting essay, he hurls a few childish insults and now demands that YOU go off-topic and "teach" about another of his pet subjects. Of course, if you do, you'll play right into his hands, because he's just the kind of man who's itching and foaming at the mouth to scream that a woman is teaching Scripture. In a word, J/J is setting you up to trap you and then knock you down, so to speak. Nice "Christian" move! J/J needs to repent, change his ways, and move on.


 
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B
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70.238.52.123

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 29 2006, 10:42 PM 

If you guys have a problem with using stories to illustrate a point, then you might want to take another look at how Jesus taught using parables.

Using cultural illustrations, whether it be AGS, movies, current events, news or whatever to make Biblical points is not wrong. It's wise. If anything, it helps to reinforce how relevant the Bible is today. For anyone who thinks it's just some ancient book, they can see how its principles still hold true. You guys are fighting a worthless fight here. People are studying the Bible, and you have to crique their methods. This is not even remotely a scriptural issue. If you don't like it, don't go to the class where it is used. If it isn't used at your congregations, say a prayer of thanks for autonomy.

 
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Donnie Cruz
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68.19.204.53

Classic TV Show or “Come learn of me”?

May 29 2006, 11:39 PM 

John,

We have no issue at all with Jesus teaching—by using parables or by issuing commands or by saying, “Be my disciple and learn of me.”

We have no issue with people studying the Bible—i.e., if and when they’re studying THE Bible. We also have no issue with people studying other materials or resources—just don’t refer to such materials or resources as THE BIBLE or as substitute for THE BIBLE where God’s scheme of redemption is laid out.

Donnie

 
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Jimmy Wren
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199.227.205.202

"The Da Vinci Code"

May 30 2006, 8:42 AM 

Rubel at Twickenham Church of Chirst May 14, 2006 sermon titles "The Da Vinci Code."

You can listen to this sermon at: http://www.twickenham.org/templates/custwickenham/details.asp?id=29362&PID=224488

I haven't been able to listen to it without interruptions thus far.

In Christ,

Jimmy

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.19.70.62

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 30 2006, 10:23 AM 

Comparing classic TV shows to Jesus' parables is an apples-with-oranges analogy. Jesus' parables were specifically designed to teach analogies to the Kingdom of Heaven. You just don't get that in classic TV sitcoms like TAGS, which were designed only to entertain audiences and make them snicker, laugh, and feel good, nothing more.

Jesus' parables were designed to make the most discerning people understand what the Kingdom of Heaven is all about; they were not designed as drawing cards to pack in the crowds and entertain them. Remember that Jesus had to explain the meaning of His parables to His apostles, because even they did not understand them. Given that, TAGS or other TV shows are hardly on the same level with Jesus' parables.

As we've said over and over, TV shows like TAGS present only morality, but NOT Christianity. They are not synonymous. Morality can be one PRODUCT of Christianity, but having morals does not guarantee that one is a Christian. There's far more to Christianity than just having morals and feeling good.

The only Source that anyone needs to learn about Christianity is the New Testament. It's the simplest, least expensive, and most direct Source. Compare that to the expense of renting or purchasing a VCR or DVD player, a TV monitor, and the video tapes or DVDs, all for the purpose of watching TAGS in Sunday school and feeling good about it. The church's funds could be better used for more essential things. If you pose the argument that the VCRs and DVDs are donated to the Sunday school, then the donor's funds could be better used for more essential things than encouraging vain attempts to milk Christianity from classic TV shows.

Is watching classic TV wrong? Sinful? The answer is that it serves no purpose. If anything, spinning wheels in Christianity, getting nowhere, and believing delusions would be wrong. TV shows and pop culture are detours that never reach the final destination, because they do not teach Christianity, as we've said before. Thus they go nowhere. You may get a tiny hint, but you just cannot get the REAL MEAT of Christianity from a classic TV show that caters to pop culture, no matter how hard you try. You might think you're getting it, but it's only a vague shadow of the real thing. Until you realize that, you're only following a delusional belief that TV shows are just as effective in teaching Christianity as studying the Bible. Who knows, maybe someday folks will eventually think that TV shows will become popular enough to replace the Bible. Nothing could be further from the truth, and that's the losing battle.

 
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B
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70.232.78.138

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 30 2006, 1:31 PM 

Now you're grasping at straws. If you actually want to make this a discussion about whether or not it's alright for a church to own video equipment, then your stance is even weaker than I thought.

If you look at the material, it is very much rooted in scripture. It is not an excuse to watch TV during Bible class.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.19.64.212

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 31 2006, 1:10 AM 

I, like many, am quite familiar with the plot lines of TAGS. There is entertainment, and there is morality, but TAGS would have a long way to go before any informed person could say that the show is rooted in Scripture. When will you learn that morality is not absolutely synonymous with Scripture? When will you learn that morality is not absolutely synonymous with Christianity? Surely B is not saying that because TAGS appeals to pop culture, then it is rooted in Scripture!

TAGS featured 249 episodes in its entire run. Very well, since B claims that TAGS is rooted in Scripture, please cite at least 25 episodes (just 10 percent) which specifically teach how one becomes a Christian, what one must do to be saved, the five steps to salvation, the essential element of baptism for salvation, the principles and meaning of taking the Lord's Supper, what Jesus commanded about obedience, about grace, about the blood of the Lamb, about atonement for sin, about hell and damnation for the impenitent. Please cite more than people loving everyone and treating everyone well, of people getting along with everyone, of everyone feeling good about everything and helping everybody. That's morality, but again, Christianity encompasses more than just loving and feeling good and helping folks. You know that (or you should). By now you ought to know that atheists and agnostics, Muslims, Jews, and Hindus can love and feel good and help folks, yet they choose neither to obey Christ nor to follow Him. Please cite more than folks singing a few hymns or Aunt Bee singing with the church choir "The Lord Bless You and Keep You" when she and the choristers had recently thought of selfishly disbanding the choir if they didn't get any new choir robes!

And it is B who is trying to turn the discussion from TV shows to video equipment. A church could use its funds better than spending it on video equipment, if all it's gonna do is to watch classic TV shows that don't even teach Christianity at all. But there's nothing wrong with using videos that specifically present expository preaching from the Word in context or specific discussions of the different Bible translations or documentaries and historical accounts of church leaders and church history. Get my drift?


 
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Jack Mann
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72.49.62.71

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 30 2006, 10:53 PM 

"Tell us therefore, What do you think? Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? But Jesus preceived their wickedness and said, Why do you tempt me, you hypocrites?
Show me the tribute money. And they brought him a penny.

He said, unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
They said unto him, Caesar's. Then he said, Render unto Caesar's the things which are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

How about that? Jesus used a "penny" as a visual aid!
The first "Change Agent" was Jesus of Nazreth....He taught with parables and now a visual aid: a "penny."

When He changed the water into wine at Cana of Galilee, Jesus worked His first miracle before "his hour had come." I wonder what this illustrated to those still attending the wedding along with the servants? You might have to study the "Real Bible" as PPB says to find the answer. Doctor Crump has studied the Psalms and I am certain he will give us a rendering.....Do I have you in a corner Doctor? Donnie...are you going to bail the good Doctor out? Why in Cana of Galilee.... of all places? "This beginning of Jesus' miracles."

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.19.64.212

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 31 2006, 1:14 AM 

The discussion is classic TV shows and Sunday school. John's wandering mind rides into the sunset again! Tally ho!

 
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Jack Mann
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72.49.62.71

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 31 2006, 12:25 PM 

Ah yes good doctor, the "wondering mind" has backed you into a corner that you cannot by exegesis of text get out of. Do not feel too badly Doctor, the Change Agents cannot exegete text either. Smile, God loves ya .....

 
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B
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70.232.82.204

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 31 2006, 2:54 PM 

"TAGS featured 249 episodes in its entire run. Very well, since B claims that TAGS is rooted in Scripture, please cite at least 25 episodes (just 10 percent) which specifically teach how one becomes a Christian, what one must do to be saved, the five steps to salvation, the essential element of baptism for salvation, the principles and meaning of taking the Lord's Supper, what Jesus commanded about obedience, about grace, about the blood of the Lamb, about atonement for sin, about hell and damnation for the impenitent."

I said the CURRICULUM is rooted in scripture, not the show itself. The curriculum is designed to teach scriptural topics using TAGS as a means of illustration.

And it was not me who brought video equipment into the discussion. That came from a previous comment.

If you want to discuss this, stick to the facts:
The curriculum does not suggest that it replaces the Bible.
The Andy Griffith Show, although designed for entertainment, can illustrate numerous points.
This curriculum uses TAGS to illustrate scriptural ideas. It is not an excuse to watch TV during Bible class.
Although it's not for everyone, that does not mean that it cannot be an effective BIBLE teaching tool.

 
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B
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70.232.111.48

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 31 2006, 5:21 PM 

As I've thought today about this entire discussion, I am just more and more amazed at the close mindedness concerning a method of teaching the Bible. Understand that's what this is, a method. Nothing more, nothing less. And the discussion is not about what our preferences are, it's about condemning a method outright. I would encourage all of you (as I have because of this discussion) to take a look at www.barneyfife.com It is the website started by Joey Fann, who first taught a Bible class using The Andy Griffith Show in 1998. He answers many of the questions brought up here. It also links to several stories in the media about the class and its impact. When is the last time the rest of our churches were featured in multiple media outlets for having a positive impact about something? Have any of our Bible classes generated that kind of interest?

This is Fann's answer to the question of why TAGS makes sense for use in a Bible class:

Why the Show Makes Sense for a Bible Class
Obviously it is my opinion that The Andy Griffith Show was a very special series, but is it really suitable to be the theme for an inspirational study? Although there are few direct references to the Bible, I believe the show is filled with the basic morals and principles taught by the Scriptures. Each show tended to have a good moral theme that was brought out by the story line. Basic values such as character, personal responsibility, honesty, and integrity were routinely exemplified by the show. I believe these characteristics to be uncommon for most television shows past or present. When George Lindsay, who played Goober in the series, was asked about the idea of using the series for such a class, he replied, "One of the incredible things about every single episode is that Andy insisted each show have a moral point, something good, lofty and moral. It’s a shame current shows on TV don’t adopt that high road."

If you are familiar with the series, it is not hard to think of an episode that portrayed a specific moral value. For example, Andy on Trial shows us the value of friendship and how easy it is to put our friendships at risk when we are concerned with exalting ourselves. The episode Opie the Birdman shows us the importance of taking responsibility for our actions, and how just saying "I’m sorry" doesn’t automatically fix everything. Mr. McBeevee gives us a very pointed lesson about trusting in one another and having faith, even when the evidence suggests otherwise. These examples and many more can be found throughout the series. In this day in age, it is refreshing to see these basic ideals brought forth in such a practical way.

Other reasons this show makes sense for a class is its familiarity and timelessness. Almost everybody has seen The Andy Griffith Show at one time or another, and most have a favorite character or scene. When you mention the idea of doing an inspirational class based on the show, most people immediately become curious. The more you explain the format, the more they begin to see the point. Before you know it, they are coming to the class and bringing their friends. The show becomes a source of common ground to attract people from all religious backgrounds and walks of life. Basically, it offers a casual, non threatening atmosphere for people to get together, have fun, and think about how we handle certain situations in life.


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.217.164.73

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

May 31 2006, 10:01 PM 

Whatever turns John on...let him bask in his delusions of self-superiority.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.217.161.55

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

June 1 2006, 1:08 AM 

B: "If you look at the material, it is very much rooted in scripture."

B did not originally say that the "curriculum" was rooted in Scripture, but that the "material" was. Curriculum or material, sounds like B is still vainly trying to pitch TAGS as a scriptural tool, when it is NOT.

I'm not surprised that Andy Griffith wanted a moral for each show. That's fine. But he didn't ever intend for the show to go so far as to teach Christianity, so it didn't. And it doesn't. Aesop's Fables also present a moral with each story, but they also don't teach Christianity. Neither does TAGS teach Christianity. It teaches morality but it neither teaches the Bible nor Christianity. All the opinions of "Goober" and other Hollywood celebrities won't change that fact.

I'll reiterate: Morality is not synonymous with Christianity.

And I'm still waiting for B to provide at least 25 episodes that specifically prove that TAGS is rooted in Scripture.

 
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Jimmy Wren
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199.227.205.202

teaching aids

June 1 2006, 9:35 AM 

John, Don't get to comfortable. It is a dangerous thing to back a strong person into a corner.

You related the story of Jesus and the coin. This is not to be compared to the church showing movies of Andy and Barney. If you wish to make such a comparison you would have to find Jesus taking his disciples to the theater or the Coliseum for the purpose of learning about life. Prehaps you could find Jesus as he reads from Asop's Fables or one of those cheap books by MaXX Lucado?

Jesus used the coin to teach His lesson, He did not use a lesson taught by Andy Taylor or some of the ancient writers and command us to go and do like wise.

In Christ,

Jimmy

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.19.70.98

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

June 1 2006, 12:13 PM 

I've started a new thread that addresses teaching the Bible with TV sitcoms.

 
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Jack Mann
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72.49.62.71

Re: Classic TV Shows Not the Straight Line to Jesus

June 1 2006, 3:19 PM 

Good Doctor, now that you have decided to "teach" with your statement that "morality is not synonymous with Christianity." Would you explain why Paul would call those in the church at Corinth "brethern?" After all, his letter was written to a bunch of Barney Fiffe's. Sinful? Oh yes, but still, Paul called Andy, Barney, and Gubber "brothers"....."Corinth," had many more problems than Mayberry...Ottis only got drunk on Friday night. Why in the church at Corinth we find a son fornicating with his father's wife....

Teach on good Doctor...."Examine yourself whether you be in the faith; prove your own self. Do you know your own self how Jesus Christ is in you, except you be a reprobate?" Teach on, Doctor, teach on...
Teach on Paul's instruction of judging this man in the church.....Why would the "brethern" in Corinth, who were "washed, sanctified, justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Holy Spirit" have all the problems of Corinth, and Mayberry.... a town drunk? Anything "synonoymous" about the two? One a "Christian," the other, a "Mayberrian."....

 
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