The last time I read the parts in the Bible about worship, I didn't read anything about worship being 'entertaining'. For entertainment you go down to the local music shop and buy a CD to listen to; Church is not the place for entertainment. I am assuming by the posts that I have read (please correct me if I am wrong about this) that Madison Church has a "Praise Team". If they do, and I am quite sure they do from previous posts, then they are moving toward a Methodist church. Someone I know is Methodist, and they have a Praise Team. The clapping part of worship sounds like a Pentecostal church. Maybe the new name for Madison will be the "Madison United-Methodist-Pentecostal-Baptist-Presbyterian-Lutheran-Mormon-Church."

Boy, you are way off base on this. I was raised Methodist, and attend Madison. I suggest you attend Madison before you make an asumption based on the garbage you read here. The Methodist Church has had a choir for the last 200 years or so. Do you have a problem with that??

Eddie

The term "Praise Team" is a euphemism for choir. They are set apart from the congregation and often sing songs where it is clear that the congregation is to be silent and listen. That my friend is a choir or "Praise Team" either way you slice it.

Now, why would the elders insist on this group of individuals to be called a praise team instead of a choir? Because everyone knows what a choir is, but the term praise team is fuzzy to many people. If it was called what it is up front many congregations would have never allowed it.

Without going into an incredible amount of detail we were all commanded to sing in Colossians 3. By providing an environment where the congregation is to listen and not sing as one body, how does that square with scripture?

Steve

So, I assume you don't care for a praise team? Remember I was raised in the Methodist Church, and I simply DO NOT understand what all the flap is on many issues here.
The scripture says "Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs".
I read this to mean that if someone is speaking (or singing) that someone is also listening.

EW

The woman at the well was the first one to grasp the role of Messiah: she said "he will TEACH us all things." Jesus responded that He was the Messiah. He said that worship is in the new PLACE of a spirit which we know is made holy at baptism. He promised that if we are LADENED down with "spiritual anxiety created by religious ritual (religion meaning pagan) we could come to Him in twos or threes or all alone and LEARN OF ME. The writers believed that they were writing down a MEMORY so that the church would have the very voice of Jesus in His Word which He said "is spirit and life."

The meaning of the FIRST DAY SABBATH and the SEVENTH were for a Holy Convocation. That means to rehearse or READ what Scripture had been written. Jesus died to give us another REST where we might assemble and GIVE HEED to His words as Paul's only "worship" word.

Paul commanded that we SPEAK TO ONE ANOTHER: he said nothing about SINGING to one another. Speaking is teaching is preaching. Without the Bible as the song book of Christ the Spirit, we might still have one person READ a verse and the rest RESPOND: That is responsorial speaking "as a schoolboy READS the Hallel." Modern Jews grasp that cantillation is not singing and so their web sites speak of READING the Bible.

Pretty soon, everyone knows a whole Psalm but LEARNING is not making music. From history we know that the people LEARNED a Psalm and thereby obeyed what Paul commanded. Then, the plowman or housewife would "speak to themselves." Sure, even David did this in his HEART.

WE then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Romans 15:1

Please is a quite perverted concept. It means to arouse excitement for your own pleasure: Jesus would not do that but He would "grieve out a hymn." Romans 15 solves a "musical" problem which existed among the vegetarians and wine-drinker. The SYNAGOGUE or school of the Bible is God's solution so that you can meet together without warfare.

Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. Romans 15: 2

For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. Romans 15: 3

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING, that we through patience and comfort of the SCRIPTURES might have hope. Romans 15: 4

Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be LIKEMINDED one toward another according to Christ Jesus: Romans 15: 5

That ye may with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 15: 6

There is NO music word used in the Bible of spiritual worship. The pagans "worshiped" and God quarantined the Jews so they could not mix with the pagans. They RESTED and read the word at times in small groups.

There is no music word in Christianity: the day of rest is to synagogue or hold school of the Bible. The music passages in the Old Testament are always the MARK of people who refuse to read the SONGS of the SPIRIT: the Words of God. The MUSIC and performance preaching is the MARK of the lost religionists when Jesus returns (maybe already) Rev. 18:22 etc.

The early church knew of no music: the Catholics made it up by letting the professionals "practice" in the building.

Ken

You are right in saying that, "I don't care for a praise team". I've never seen any good come out of one. Once they start, even out of noble intentions, typically they end up out of control. I've seen two churches not mentioned here split over them when they went overboard, and another split at the introduction of one because of how the introduction was handled.

You are correct that some would be listening, is it not possible to listen and sing at the same time? The preceding verses to Col3:16 speak of unity and being members of one body. That one body is also being addressed in verse 16. By calling individuals out to sing in worship and having others sit and listen the oneness is broken. Then you have in laymans terms an "us and them" situation.

The scripture actually does say sing, in the second half of the verse. "KJV Singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.", "NIV and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.", "RSV and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God." The NIV and RSV actually read the same, but even the KJV uses a form of the term, "Sing".

I'm not going to go into an overly complicated language study as some do here. The other side (CGM) does that as well to muddy the water so I'm not going to use the same tactics. That is why God has allowed his Holy Word to be translated and distributed in English.

KJV Col 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

NIV Col 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

RSV Col 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

Steve

"You are right in saying that, "I don't care for a praise team". I've never seen any good come out of one. Once they start, even out of noble intentions, typically they end up out of control. I've seen two churches not mentioned here split over them when they went overboard, and another split at the introduction of one because of how the introduction was handled."

Very well said! While I see the good in a praise team, I also see the harm that can be caused when the leaders do not educate the congregation about any changes they plan to incorporate. Just showing up with a praise team one Sunday morning can be disastrous.

I also do not believe a praise team can be "beyond a shadow of a doubt" proved or dis-proved in scripture, as there are many different opinions as to what the Bible says. If there were not different opinions, then there would not be different denominations. It also seems that certain people are more "concerned" with finding fault in their brothers, than doing anything else. Maybe if more time was spent with what we have in common, then relationships might improve.

I also believe most of the problems in any church are directly related to the lack of a strong leadership, and money and power struggles.

I also believe that each congregation should be left to work out its own problems, without opinions, or help from people that have never set foot in their building.

Eddie

You are correct in saying that you will not find a scripture that says, "Thou shall not have a praise team". However, you have agreed that the introduction of one can be "disastrous".

Now let's take a look at one of the places in scripture where it is stated that the purpose of God's people are to be prepared for works of service so that the body of Christ may be built up. Ephesians 4:12. There are other verses similar in nature the deal with building up the body.

Notice that there is no authority given to destroy the body. I have not been able to find a place where the authority to destroy has been given. Taking what we know about "praise teams" and other PDC methodologies, why would one choose to implement these when Rick Warren himself warns of disaster. The implementation of a plan whose earthly author agrees of potential "side effects", when there are multiple clear commands from scripture to build the body up is reckless at best.

You are correct that this comes down to leadership, or a lack there of. The generation that is in leadership right now is the same generation that has brought moral relativism mainstream. Unfortunately, it has penetrated the Church as well. This is why there is the debate there is over these issues. You have those who allow for gray areas because the Bible does not say don't, and you have those that see black and white who won't get near a questionable issue.

In my eyes, the current arrangement with a praise team does just that; it builds up the body. Singing is better than it has been in years. The only one complaining is Donnie, and he's not a member at Madison.

BTW: There will always be those that chose not to sing, and that's their choice. They should not complain about those that do chose to sing.

EW

The upbuilding in the NEW BODY must be in QUALITY because al of the New Stye worship scams deliberately sow discord and the QUANTITY of the body decreases. It seems to me that Donnie's numbers prove that there has been no UPBUILDING.

Secondly, building up the body comes from EDIFICATION which is EDUCATION. I have read lots of the sermons so the growth must be BLOAT from eating the tares.

Webster: Edification 1. The act of edifying, or the state of being edified; a building up, especially in a MORAL or SPIRITUAL sense; moral, intellectual, or spiritual improvement; INSTRUCTION.

Are you guys more MORAL? Sowing discord says NO.

Are you more SPIRITUAL? No. Spiritual relates to the MENTAL qualities of knowledge. See Isaiah 11:1-4 for the SEVEN SPIRITS.

Do you get more INTELLECTUAL? Doubt it. Just what part of SPEAK do you not grasp.

Are you getting Biblical INSTRUCTION from God? No. What I read proves that you are in the ANTI-intellectual mode.

I know why you won't publish facts: you are cowed because you know that if you RUMBLE you will TUMBLE. Have they ever asked Donnie to serve? When you SPEAK for EDIFICATION the word is:

loquor , ca-tus (quu-tus), loqui ... to talk, WHISPER; ... to speak, talk, say in the language of common life, in the tone of CONVERSATION;

Madison is probably no better or worse than most churches which have sucked in the Shelly "church is only to worship or glorify God." But Paul defined how to GLORIFY God in Romans 15. The message is not external singing but speaking with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH that which is written to Glorify God. God truly gives us a PRAYER LANGUAGE, SINGING LANGUAGE AND TEACHING LANGUAGE: The Bible to be "taught as it has been taught."

I have posted a few more LONG DEFINITIONS on YOUR church and the OCCULT. It will take some time:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=150389&messageid=1077396184&lp=1082594470

Ken

Eddie,

I once was convinced that a praise team was the "way to go" to teach new songs and encourage people to sing.

After careful (and honest) study over the last two years, I discovered that those people in the back that never sung before still don't sing. The only gatherings where most of the people sing are the "praise and worship," or "praise and prayer" sessions...and most of those people would have been singing anyway.

I have had many discussions with others who say, "I just love to listen to that praise team." Like it or not, that sounds like entertainment to me.

Believe me, this is nothing personal. I know, love, and respect many people who are on praise teams at Madison. I know of no finer Christians than some of these folks. I do hope that they will take the time to seek out for themselves the effects that having a praise team has had on ALL of the people at Madison, not just those who support the idea.

EB

EB
I really don't want to talk about details about Madison or any other church here.

If you wish, you may e-mail me privately eddiewilliams@comcast.net

Eddie

Eddie … Eddie, please don’t keep us in suspense. Surely, you can tell us about details without mentioning names, can’t you?

You said, “While I see the good in a praise team, I also see the harm that can be caused when the leaders do not educate the congregation about any changes they plan to incorporate. Just showing up with a praise team one Sunday morning can be disastrous.” My recollection is that this is the first time you’ve ever said something that sounded negative about your leadership. Aren’t you concerned?

While you made a generalized statement without mentioning names, your indirect references were obvious. The Madison congregation has a “Praise Team” in each of both services. You have described exactly what happened to the Madison body.

In the “contemporary” assembly, the choir members are seated in front performing with their hand-held microphones and with sheet music; there’s rhythmic handclapping exercise; a “worship leader” solo or a female solo or duet we listen to; we also hear unintelligible sounds; frequently only the “team players” sing “praise” or “singy-clappy” music while the other [main] group, the congregation, listens.

In the supposedly “traditional” group [a name designated by the change agents to the defiant non-conformists], there is also a “Praise Team” except that they are spread out IN DISGUISE (another subtlety in the “scheme”). While they’re not holding microphones [and I’m not sure if they have “voice magnifiers” (amplifiers) in their pockets or pocketbooks], they certainly can loudly sing those “praise” songs to drown out the solemn and reverent moments of meditation by senior citizens of the kingdom.

I can say more, but let’s save it for next time. I just wanted to let you know that your statement above did not go unnoticed. I appreciate your honesty because of the way you came up with those words: “praise team … the harm … when the leaders [elders, d.c.] … do not educate … the congregation … about any changes … they … plan … to incorporate … can be disastrous.” Wow, these are key Rick Warren/Saddleback “Purpose-Driven Church” key phrases!

Steve Black, in my e-mail conversation with him, has given me an excellent definition, description or purpose of the “Acts of the Praise Team”—what the team did to the congregation that divided because of it: “… in the way the praise team was used for softening the underbelly, preparing for larger things—it was used as the PDC icebreaker.”

Donnie

I love the way you can take a simple statment and blow it all out of proportion.
I'm not going to comment on the 1st service, for the very same reason you should not. I don't attend, you don't, either.
I agree there was a small speed bump to be handled some years ago. Now everything is OK, and the only one complaining is you. That's 2697 to 1.

EW

I concur with the comments made by Mr. Williams. Donnie you have no where to comment as do I on what takes place at first service because you nor myself attend at that assembly. So I advise you find something else to fuel your fire and not wet your pants. You have hit every issue over and over into left field and from the strong defense have struck out everytime just like them New York Yankees taking a fast ball from Dal Maxvill and I am fed up as are several others in hearing it. This website is a disgrace to God and his son Jesus. Church is more than a building. It is more than an operation. It's a body--a body of believers united in one purpose....to glorify God!!! Whether that is done through serving, praising God in song, spending time in prayer, or fellowship...it all is glorifying God. Worship is about more than something we do, it is something we as Christians are! What I mean is that it is a lifestyle that we are to live up to 24/7. Enough of the truth as I see it. Take it as you want Donnie but don't misinterpret the truth as you always tend to twist and misinterpret things with it.

Horace Speck

Mr Horace Speck,

You've really given some incite into the division at Madison that I was not aware of.

Is the Madison church so divided that the ones who attend the late service are not suppose to mention the early service? Are church members discouraged in making the statement that "madison is my church?"

Are members suppose to say, "Only the late service at Madison is my church?" How would you say it Horace? What part of the Madison church do you claim to be a member of? What "part" of the Madison church are you concerned with Horace?

I have never heard anyone make a statement that you can only discuss a certain "part" or "time" of the local church of which you are a member.

Horace says,"This website is a disgrace to God and his son Jesus."

Jimmy answers: The disgrace is not with this website Horace. The disgrace is that it reveals the direction in which Madison is heading. As a Madison members you cannot hold your head up, can you? Men hate light and love darkness. Madison members cannot find a place to hide.

Your post reads as if you are hurting. You are lashing out in anger. You need to take your anger and frustrations and lay them at the feet of Jesus in prayer.

After you rid your heart and mind of anger, you should join us on this website and help warn others that what happened at Madison can also happen to them.



In Christian Love,

JImmy

Eddie,

If you’re not going to comment on the first service, sorry! But what I said will have to remain as being an accurate portrayal of what’s going on there—no charges until proven guilty. I know that you know that. I also know that you have friends at the first service you can ask to comment for you. Would you ask them? You know, I’d be happy to retract portions or all of what I said … if untrue.

Let me add some more to what I’ve already said about the purpose-driven scheme being gradually and subtly and “purposely” implemented in the first service. Besides a “Praise Team” member sitting here or another one sitting there or wherever, did not Estill mention the fact that even though the rhythmic handclapping exercise agents are keenly aware of their drugging side effects on the senior and other noise-sensitive citizens of God’s kingdom in the assembly, that they insist on doing their “programmed” cheerleading activities anyway? That those “worship entertainment” addicts who accuse those who don’t fall for such addiction are without love—when they’re the ones who are without love because of their lack of concern and their insensitivities? Hmmm!

Did you just say that the Madison upheaval or “disaster” [thanks for this word, Eddie] was just “a small speed bump”? Right, Eddie, how easily you’ve forgotten that the small speed bump had so many alienated folks flip over every which way? NO … NO … NO! Everything is not OK—as much as I would like for it to be the case. I have not forgotten that after some “Summer Spectacular” DRAMA presentation not long ago, the drama executive producers and directors [or the leaders] have PERMANENTLY REMOVED both the “contributions” and “attendance” boards from the walls. Wonder why?

Let’s show some figures to illustrate my point. In as late as May (1st week) of 2001, even though the upheaval or “disaster” had already occurred as reflected by the “somewhat low” figures shown below, the attendance was still much higher then compared to what it is now:

• 1,072 attended the early assembly during the 1st Sunday of May, 2001
• 1,099 attended the second assembly (fusion of the STILL “traditional” and the 3rd “charismatic” group)
• 327 was the attendance from the “extension” group
=====================
• 2,498 was the total attendance (Note: Can you imagine what it was prior to the disaster? 3100-3500?)

My point with regard to the attendance board being permanently removed is that prior to its removal, the early attendance had ranged between 475 and 550. (I believe both contribution and attendance boards will be put back up on the walls with the dramatic increases in both attendance and offerings.)

THREE YEARS LATER: The Madison Marcher now shows us the weekly total contribution and total attendance—no longer showing the breakdown of the (1) early, (2) contemporary and (3) extension groups. BTW, unless someone wants to correct me, the attendance monitor adds a “constant” value of some 313 (or near that), as the “extension” figure, to the TOTAL attendance. So, figure your own math: for example, “(500 + 837 + 313) = 1650” would comprise the average weekly total attendance. Besides, we still need an explanation for the “extension” group—what is this and where does it come from? Is it from the prison ministry or what?

Well, Eddie, you are as slick as the change agents you greatly admire and adore. The 2,697 figure you quoted was the attendance, according to the Marcher, when the “EASTER INTERACTIVE DRAMA WORSHIP” was PERFORMED on April 11, 2004. The same bulletin had Dr. C. Bruce White in the “Preacher Potpourri” making this statement that would reflect a “Purpose-Driven Church” scheme directive—

“What an Easter Sunday! It was such a joy to see the auditorium filled again. We thank God for His blessing and we anticipate seeing more and more souls in His praise in the days ahead.”

As I’ve said recently, the recent 2,697 “Easter” attendance would be of no comparison to one of the least attended non-“Easter Sunday” a few years back. Slick, indeed! The attendance was 1,698 and again 1,630 on the Sundays preceding. There’s one more credibility check. Eddie. Let’s see the attendance reported on the “Easter Sunday” AFTER. Either you report the attendance on April 18, 2004 (the Sunday after “Easter”) OR I will report it here. Take your pick.

Donnie

Whew!!

I think I touched a nerve. I'm not going to comment on 1st service. I'm not going to post any numbers. If you will provide your snail-mail address, I will send you 35 cents, so you can call someone that really cares about these things.

You know, sometimes things change, and sometimes some people don't like every change. However, in your previous post, there is not a change mentioned that can be proved or dis-proved in the Bible. SHOW ME where it says there has to be an attendance & contibution board, on the wall, at the front of the Auditorium.

News Flash for Donnie: I, like you, am not a member at Madison. I only choose to worship with one of the finest Christian families in this area. You should take my lead, and start worshiping there, yourself!

EW

Eddie said, “SHOW ME where it says there has to be an attendance & contibution board, on the wall, at the front of the Auditorium.”

What a profound statement! I’m speechless and dumbfounded!

No … I touched a nerve. Reporting a one-time record of an “Easter Passion Drama Interactive Worship” attendance and giving the impression of that being the weekly average attendance! Hmmm! Hmmm! Hmmm! There’s a word for that—I think the word is … “deception” or cover-up?

Donnie

You are twisting words, AGAIN!

Donnie, you said,

"...did not Estill mention the fact that even though the rhythmic handclapping exercise agents are keenly aware of their drugging side effects on the senior and other noise-sensitive citizens of God’s kingdom in the assembly, that they insist on doing their “programmed” cheerleading activities anyway?"

Even though I agree with you most of the time, please don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that I was aware of it by both asking people and noting unsolicited comments of Madison members MYSELF.

EB

Hi Estill
I just had a question and that is, "Do you attend church services at Madison?" If so, which service? Just curious. I do attend there and was just wondering
Thanks, Horace

Horace,

I used to attend all services...

EB

It seems eddie is right:
What true God fearing sheep know is in the minority, and it just does not matter what you know. The proof is in the numbers. In 2004: it is 2697 to 1, in 2000: it was 5394 to 2, and I did what the others did: Left. Or maybe it was 2697 to 3000, and we all left and left one behind. Donnie do you feel left behind? How does that make you feel? Well look at it as good training to get you ready to read the book, or books. Ole Max made a lot of money writing about peoples feeling of being left behind. That is what it is about, right, make the most you can off'em? So tithe on brothers and sisters, for we have lots of ministries to fund, to bring in more people, so we can get more tithes, so we can fund ministries, to bring in more people, to get more tithes, to fund ministries,......woe, my head is spining.
I could go on and on about the works of the Hirlings but this web site has many of my thoughts on those low lives. I am so thankful that as God started showing me the evil ways of the church He also shown me the prophecies of the end times. The prophecies of end times explains it all. What was it Jesus asked? When I return will I find any faith? Well He also talks about a elect, an remnant. A remnant is a small number compared to the majority: ie, say maybe 2697 to 1. So Donnie, fight the good fight, you are going to lose, that part of the prophecies, but the other part is Jesus rescue us (either dead or alive). The World is 6000 years old, and in the inmortal words of exPrez Clinton "Your time, is up" it's time, the blooms are on the fig tree, the season is right. Just a few more prophecy fulfillments and then it will be just a matter of a day and an hour.
"LORD come quickly"

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

Joe,
In 2000, it was closer to 2900. Check with Donnie, he the numbers expert.

EW

Eddie,

I think there is no point in arguing Joe's stats. I notice that he knows "ratio and proportion" very well. Just reconsider his message -- you will eventually understand it.

Donnie

I'm not arguing; I'm only pointing out you have all the facts and answers.

Mr. Speck,

I believe I have recommended to Dal Maxvill that if he wanted all the entertaining charismatic type of worship that he visit the Cornerstone Church only a few blocks away from where Mr. Williams attends. [More likely Cornerstone has drums, trumpets, vigorous rhythmic and non-rhythmic handclapping and tongues and more.] By the way, I hadn’t heard anymore about Mr. Maxvill’s fast ball until you mentioned it—thanks for the reminder. But this website is not only alive and kicking—it is still continuing to send out the message: “Beware of the change agents in the brotherhood … do not replace the New Testament with the philosophy of Rick Warren and his copycats.” (By now, you should know who Rick Warren’s disciples are.)

I have a little reminder for you, too. Joe Corley, Bill Bennett, Dale Bishop and Norman Slate (and Charles Link 4 months later) honorably resigned from being elders because they no longer wanted to be part of the ongoing division, even within the leadership itself. Just check out the resignation letter that those elders submitted—I think it was posted on this site around that time. The point is that they resigned for the sake of unity—sadly and unfortunately leaving the ruling “majority” of the remaining elders who were/are still ardent supporters of Rick Warren’s “Purpose-Driven Church” philosophy.

Yes, I’m compelled to refresh your memory because the problems at Madison have not gone away—and it appears that you are still unwilling to face the reality and don’t know what deception really means. I would like for you to look at the issues in a broader perspective. After the mass exodus from the eldership in February, 2002, let me tell you for the record that the following Sunday, I attended the early assembly. And for the record, praise team members were in the gathering. Although they weren’t seated together right under the nose of the “worship leader,” their voices were loud and clear. Do you realize that Madison has more than one Praise Team?

You must not be reading enough for you and several others to be fed up and think that this website is a disgrace. The change agents and their loyal supporters feel the same as you do, Mr. Speck. No doubt the change agents love only the kinds of exposure that makes them popular and well-liked. They want to be just like their master mentor—Rick Warren.

Have you bothered to read John Waddey’s article, “The Unchanging Nature of the Church of Christ”? Or, “Keeping Abreast: Reviews of Books and Materials Relating to the Church Movement” … “The Bible versus Change Agents” … “Preventive Medicine for Your Congregation” [a little too late for Madison] … “The Current Apostasy” … “The Weapons of the Change Agents” … “Wise Leadership Needed in the Current Conflict” [also a little too late for Madison] … “People Change, Times Change, But the Lord’s Church Will Never Change” … and a host of others.

If you haven’t bothered to read any of those excellent articles, then, I would have to think that you’re curious and more interested in reading my reports. And speaking of my reporting and misinterpreting the truth, isn’t it your obligation to correct me? I really don’t mind being shown my mistakes. Perhaps, there’s a great need to initiate a thread solely dedicated to “Donnie’s erroneous reports.”

Mr. Speck, you deserve commendation for the last couple of sentences that you wrote:

Church is more than a building. It is more than an operation. It's a body--a body of believers united in one purpose....to glorify God!!! Whether that is done through serving, praising God in song, spending time in prayer, or fellowship...it all is glorifying God. Worship is about more than something we do, it is something we as Christians are! What I mean is that it is a lifestyle that we are to live up to 24/7.

This website has a similar message: God’s will for His church does not need improvisation. The change agents do not have the right to change the unchanging nature of Christ’s church. The change agents have no business transforming the church according to Rick Warren’s vision or scheme—the Warren doctrine is splitting churches of Christ. And please … please don’t tell me that the Madison Church of Christ has not been infected with the deadly Saddleback Community Church virus.

Donnie

Donnie,
Thank you for the history lesson! Now, don't you think it's time to look forward? There's nothing you can do to change what happened, and I'm sure the people you mentioned are not completley faultless in the problems that occured. Seems to me they "ran" from the problem. Thus, they became part of the problem, not part of the solution. Donnie, you fall in that category also. Your constant ranting and "what if's" label you as the problem, not the solution.
Tell me how you can spend one hour a week with a congregation, and be able to point out all of it's faults??

EB, watch him, he will twist every word he can, just to create controversy.

Donnie, I believe there are some other questions on this thread, you have failed to address.

EW

Eddie,

True, the past cannot be undone. But lessons can be learned from the past.

On the “mass exodus” of the elders, would it not have been a better solution if the remaining elders who wanted it “their” way had said or done something to the effect:

“Brethren, our fellow elders, we realize that it would not be good for the church of our Lord and for the Madison congregation, in particular, if we all together did not work things out as a unified eldership. Therefore, we are willing to give up our own selfish ambitions and desires, and we realize that we cannot always have it our way. Rather, that we all simply go by New Testament instructions and principles in all of our decision-making processes. Yes, we all want to maintain peace and unity in the congregation. Yes, we are not going to implement changes in doctrine that are contradictory to what the New Testament teaches. Yes, we are not going to implement changes in congregational matters that will spark controversy—they’re simply not worth dividing the Madison body of Christians. Yes, Rick Warren, Rubel Shelly, Max Lucado and others—regardless of their popularity and successes—some of their teachings are false and detrimental to the unity of Christ’s church. But we want this body to remain united. We, therefore, encourage you to remain and continue our work together in the vineyard of the Lord.”

Now, Eddie, 10 elders have resigned since October, 2001.

It is news to me that Donnie falls “in that category also” of being “part of the problem.” [Eddie, I’m just laughing out loud!] I did not realize that anyone ever paid attention to me.

Finally, here’s my special request—would you please identify the other questions on this thread that I have failed to address? We’re all busy, you know. But I’ll be happy to spend time addressing those questions.

Donnie

A. There you go putting words in other people's mouths,AGAIN!
B. I'm also busy; Re-read the thread yourself.

EW

Mr Cruz
As a Madison member for a little more than 20 years I know a little bit more about the elders you listed below in your post than you chose to spill...but if I were to share that with you then that would be gossip....and Christians aren't about gossip...There are things that I do agree with you about and some things that are just so minimal that you just can't keep talking about it. There is nothing wrong with freedom when it comes to worship. If I want to raise my hands or clap after a baptism I should have the freedom to do so. I don't get what your thrill is to be somewhere where all you do is criticize what is taking place. Why don't you go somewhere that would be more suitable to your preferences. I am not trying to run you away by any means but am just curious why you are wasting your time swinging your bat on this site trying for a homerun but not getting anywhere. You have made your point over and over and over and over and di I say over again.

I agree with you on certain issues as to what is taking place at Madison...I don't like some of the things that are taking place with the way things are. The solos bother me. The ooh songs irritate me...When you have talented people at Madison who are capable of arranging music I don't see why they don't arrange it for the whole congregation to sing. And speaking of a praise team at first service how would you know one existed when you don't even know who is on one and who isn't on one...You don't have to be on a praise team to have a great voice...that is just a gift that God blesses you with (that being the gift of singing)

In regards to correcting you. I do believe myself along with folks like Mr Williams and Dal in past posts have done. But it seems to me and them that you along with Kenny Sublett think that they know it all and aren't open minded to thinking outside the box.

-Harold-

Harold,

No, this website would not allow gossip about any of the elders, or anyone, for that matter, especially regarding personal issues. However, if they were issues dealing with specific doctrine, beliefs and practices that concern and affect the congregation publicly, then, I don’t see any reason why such should not be brought out in public just the same. I hope you’re not thinking that I have brought up issues that are “minimal,” are you? I believe that we can determine whether or not an issue is minimal … only from the standpoint of its effect or end result.

It’s really easy for anyone, you and me included, to say that there is nothing wrong with freedom when it comes to worship. Yet, there are questions about what worship really is. To me, worship is an individual Christian’s responsibility, and it is between the Christian and God on a private or personal level—no one can worship God for someone else. An elder cannot worship God for another member. The “Praise Team” cannot worship God for the congregation. To me, the main purpose of a public assembly or gathering of Christians is similar to that of the Jewish synagogue, which is Word-centered. So, New Testament Christians gather in the same format and with a similar purpose, Word-centered, meaning that we do a lot of reading and studying of God’s truth during the assembly period. One significant reason or difference, of course, in the Christian versus Jewish gathering is in the commemoration of the Lord’s suffering and death on the cross, the Lord’s Supper.

I’m not sure how much I have said about clapping after baptism—if any. Baptism occurs or may occur anytime during the assembly period, just as it can occur anytime and anywhere else outside the building. But, yes, I have mentioned and discussed the programmed, rehearsed rhythmic handclapping exercises during singing. [Oops! I just mentioned it again, didn’t I?] Without belaboring the point, why would some insensitive clappers insist on doing it when they know fully well that loud rhythmic handclapping during singing serves no purpose except offend and disrupt others in the assembly? So, that is my message to the 10 (or fewer) disruptive rhythmic hand-clappers during singing—just a handful among the 700-800 folks present in the assembly. [They usually sit behind the preacher’s and leaders’ pew and they stand up to join the Praise Team members in the clapping routines.] Wasting my time swinging the bat on this site? Perhaps! But one thing for sure, we all want this particular controversy to stop, don’t we?

Interestingly, you mentioned solos and the o-o-o-o singing. In addition, might I mention those “unintelligible sounds” mimicking musical instrumentation? So, in a way, I think you see the points I’ve been trying to make. And regarding the Praise Team controversy, do you disagree, then, that Madison has praise teams (plural)? But you haven’t disproved or denied what I have said about praise teams. You also have not disproved or denied what I said about PT members being present in the first assembly. And speaking of gifts, I hope you are not confusing God-given natural gifts with spiritual gifts. In the Corinthian letter, the spiritual gifts are listed, and musical voice is not a spiritual gift.

Let me assure you, Harold, I never think that I know it all. But I find the CENI principle of the Restoration Movement an excellent standard for Bible students in the understanding of the scriptures. In what the church does, it is safer than otherwise to go by that principle that: (1) there is a COMMAND for it; (2) there is an EXAMPLE for it; (3) the NECESSARY INFERENCE justifies it. [Coming up out of the water in baptism “NECESSARILY INFERS” that baptism is by immersion—not by sprinkling or by pouring.]

Harold, I do think a lot “outside the box.” But I believe that God’s plan of salvation is plain and simple. It is the mortal mind that complicates it.

Donnie

A. I choose not to live at this site like you and your buddies Ken and David Rhodes choose to do.
B. Don't think I'm dodging any bullets either as you feel that I have done with certain issues as it pertains to praise teams at 1st service/etc...

*I have attended first service on several occasions and there is no one else on a microphone leading worship other than the worship leader (and that is Stephen). How hard headed are you and what's it gonna take for you to realize that....? What you are probably confused about is this...and I don't think I am wrong on this...there are several microphones that are hung around the auditorium for congregational singing/readings to pick up the congregation during songs and readings....AND THAT has been around for years before the praise team even existed because I used to serve with the audio and assist with sound during services

-Harold

Harold Speck/Savage:

Choosing not to live at this site is clearly your choice. That’s what we call an exercise of freedom in our society. We are all happy that we have such freedom, aren’t we? Anyway, please feel free to check in once in a while. If nothing else, I believe it will be worth your while to spend time reading many of John Waddey’s fine articles. I’m sure that his writings will help broaden your horizon and help you look into the divisive nature of the Change Movement. There are also numerous articles written by other great men of the New Testament church of the 21st century.

I think you’re mistaken in thinking that all I’m interested in is in discussing what Praise Team members do or not do in the first assembly. I’ve already said that they do not sit in front and they do not hold microphones. If they help with the singing by not overpowering the congregation, well, what right do I have to complain about that? I should say that’s great—there’s no performance involved there and the congregation is not being sung to. Actually, I appreciate what Stephen Vail is doing for the brethren in that assembly.

There are more serious issues than clapping and lifting hands that need to be discussed—doctrines borrowed by the change agents from their denominational neighbors. Just check out the other threads. You’ll see.

Donnie

The Israelites put the WORD into a box called the Ark of the Covenant. In time, they came to WORSHIP it because they were sure that God was in the BOX. When David "praised" in the sense of singing, playing his harp, and dancing which HE identified it as MAKING MYSELF VILE he BELIEVED that he had God in the Box and he was removing HIM to his own JEBUSITE High Place to which God assigned Him because he was too fearful of the FLAMING WARRIORS and never could go to Gibeon again. They WORSHIPPED the box. Huldah, the LIBRARIAN, had to be called upon to have a RELIABLE copy of the Law.

With God and His law IN A BOX, God spoke to GAD who was the king's seer meaning a STARGAZER about how to set up a CIVIL-TEMPLE-STATE at the Jebusite High Place LIKE THE NATIONS because the ELDERS (out of the box) fired God as king and priest and demanded a king LIKE THE NATIONS and God knew that it was so that they could WORSHIP LIKE THE NATIONS. As a result the kings would lead them into captivity and death JUST LIKE THE OTHER NATIONS.

The Old Testament, Jesus in the New Testament, the inspired Apostles and ALL of church history puts believers INSIDE A BOX to keep them safe from those OUTSIDE THE BOX or Book.

Your thought leaders secondarily led by Rubel Shelly opperate OUTSIDE THE BOX by fooling the fools that there are only seven facts ABOUT Jesus to be used for judging faith and practice. When God BREAKS DOWN THE WALLS to His people the BEAST people come in and eat up your inheritance (halal or Chalal meaning to "play the flute, steal your inheritance, pollute or prostitute") it is the MARK of those who have turned to wine (wineskins), women (whatever sex) and song (vocal bands). They DRAMATIZE going INTO the Most Holy Place to LEAD you in worship. They are not literate enough to know that the ACTING or DRAMA would get them executed instantly UNDER LAW where they want to put you so that the ORATORS can get the TITHE as your PRIESTS.

They can DENY the Command, Example and Inference only by PERVERTING the Bible and all church history to make you BELIEVE that DOWN is UP--and you love to have it so in tithes and offering and the clap.

http://www.piney.com/ComExamInfer.html

The BOX is 100% anti MUSIC (even the Catholic Encyclopedia in the ideal church) and you guys want OUT OF THE BOX. But the Lion is lurking just outside the door.

Furthermore, even a minor CAMPER in the Word and in the Spirit or Mind understands there there is an IN THE BOX and an OUT OF THE BOX way of teaching.

Jesus PREACHED in all of the cities and most often TAUGHT in the synagogue. He READ from the WORD and had the uncommon decency to SIT DOWN and DIALOG.

See the OCCULT THREAD for the difference.

Paul remained faithful to Christ and the word PREACH means to go out as a herald. The word TEACH always meant DIALOG: he dialoged IN CHURCH--he DID NOT PREACH until midnight in Troas. That is why he had to reason to speak a MINOR DIALOG in an outlying town. However, he could TEACH DOCTRINE in Koine in Corinth. The Word PREACH (Sermo_ is the word DIALOG.

The Greek word for what the preachers and musicians are doing in the OUT OF THE MIND "worship"is defined by the word ORATIO which is defined as OPPOSITE to SERMO or DIALOG or discuss. As we note, the rhetoricians, sOPHISts, singers and musicians PERFORM as SORCERERS and are therefore PARASITES even in Greek Paganism. The GAY world flaunts the idea that CHARISMATIC is directly associated to perversion.

So, if the ekklesia (synagogue) of Christ is, as Paul always says, to GIVE HEED TO THE WORD, then you CANNOT be an assembly of Christ. As Donnie notes, the Lord's Supper is added to the EKKLESIA to remember or SHOW FORTH the DEATH of Christ. Show forth means to PREACH the Death of Christ. When Christ ASSEMBLES with the congregation he GRIEVES OUT or AGNOIZES a hymn: "Christians" simply CANNOT sing, clap and whistle while SHOWING FORTH the Death of Christ. Well, the Warrior Levite "Sounders" DID as prophesied in MOCKING Jesus. Artists are literate enough to show the DRUMMERS and FLUTERS in the BETRAYAL of Christ. Cannot you WAIT with Him one hour out of 168?

As MOCKING the Catholic Eucharist you are CRUCIFYING CHRIST all over again and the MUSICIANS are the MARK that having lost the Word by leaving it in A BOX, God is sending strong delusions that you believe LIARS: sure, even pay the TITHE as the MARK that God has flown you back BEYOND the death and CROSS of Christ.

If you look at the STATS you will notice that those outside the MADISON BOX are listening, learning and reporting.

Ken

Estill, this post is not about you. But I just wanted to comment at the outset that it’s never my intention to put words in someone else’s mouth. Sorry, if that’s how you took it. Regardless, though, even with neither you nor I alluding to what the offenders do and how the offended feel, it’s simply common knowledge—the offenders are insensitive to the feelings and needs of those whom they offend.

Since this thread is about “entertainment” in worship, I would like to state the following. It is troubling when one does something that’s offensive to another. To me, it is more troubling when the entire gathering sees an elder or leader participate in anything that’s controversial to begin with. Whether or not it’s wrong to clap and distract others during “worship” and whether or not it’s wrong to replace “keeping silence before Him and reading His word” with “a performance-driven, interactive passion drama worship” … it is, indeed, troubling to see an elder participating in any of such controversial activities. Is this making sense? By the way, these are facts…. An elder or elders, seated in front and facing the assembly, have participated in the rhythmic handclapping exercise—which is one of the controversies in a worship setting. Certain elders participated in the recent “Easter Passion Drama Worship” performance—doubly controversial because of: (#1) the “ANNUAL EASTER” Festival and (#2) the Interactive “DRAMA” Worship.

Is the church leadership really interested in fostering or maintaining unity in this local body of believers? Or, is it hastening the passing of the _____ generation and looking too far ahead into the next generation of Madison congregants? Ouch!

“Um … um … let’s insure that we let our youth, the next generation, stay happy and content by not reprimanding them, lecturing to them, or reminding them to be a little more sensitive towards others.” Hmmm!

I certainly hope that Stephen Vail was able to restrain himself when leading this “praise” song, “He Has Made Me Glad,” during the “traditional” assembly this past Sunday. You see … this clapping-inducing “praise” song, when sung in the “contemporary” assembly, could have one issued a “___-ing” ticket … well, depending on the “worship leader.”

Finally, here’s the attendance registry for the last few Sundays, since “The Passion” movie drive in Feb-Mar and including the “Easter Sunday” Festival [*]:

2004 MARCH _______________ 1,819______1,718______1,738______1,698
2004 APRIL _______________ 1,630______2,697*_____1,628

So, for now … 2,700 is not the average weekly attendance.

Donnie

Donnie,

You said that "...Estill mention(ed) the fact that even though the rhythmic handclapping exercise agents are keenly aware of their drugging side effects on the senior and other noise-sensitive citizens of God’s kingdom in the assembly, that they insist on doing their “programmed” cheerleading activities anyway?"

I have no idea whether the praise team members are "keenly aware" (or not) of what you've alluded to. I certainly didn't "mention" any such thing. Looks like you've fabricated what I've "said" to try to lend weight to your accusation which may or may not be grounded in truth.

Stick to the FACTS. It's a good way not to dig yourself a hole.

EB

Estill,

I am apologizing again, since you brought it up again. It appears now that I misunderstood you. We don’t always interpret someone else’s point of view correctly, do we? Although my statement was in the form of a question [“… did not Estill mention…?”], I still would like to retract the portion that referenced your name. Please consider that segment removed and let the rest of the statement stand as my own viewpoint.

Honestly, though, I believe that your original post in this thread presented a lot of truth. So, I’m copying-and-pasting it here exactly the way you posted it on April 21 2004, 5:42 AM:

Eddie,

I once was convinced that a praise team was the "way to go" to teach new songs and encourage people to sing.

After careful (and honest) study over the last two years, I discovered that those people in the back that never sung before still don't sing. The only gatherings where most of the people sing are the "praise and worship," or "praise and prayer" sessions...and most of those people would have been singing anyway.

I have had many discussions with others who say, "I just love to listen to that praise team." Like it or not, that sounds like entertainment to me.

Believe me, this is nothing personal. I know, love, and respect many people who are on praise teams at Madison. I know of no finer Christians than some of these folks. I do hope that they will take the time to seek out for themselves the effects that having a praise team has had on ALL of the people at Madison, not just those who support the idea.

EB

Wait, there’s more. Your conversation with Robin in another thread [i was just surfing for c of c and found this] was really what I had in mind when I [mis]-quoted you. Just so, you’re not misquoted by me or anyone else, I will copy-and-paste a portion of that post of April 10 2004, 7:04 AM:

… On a similar note, I don't tend to get bored in continuing to worship in a way I have always done it. I personally think that this is the main reason for a lot of the new "faddish" ways of worship...boredom.

The numbers may be on the way back up, but "unified?" Ask some of the long-time members who remain at the first service. My inquiries over the past year of these people have yielded the opposite results. They just don't want to leave their "church home."

Robin, there's a lot of love at Madison, in certain circles. But, it has been my experience that the more "conservative" members are more tolerant of the more "liberal" members in points of view, preference, etc. Why do you think that is, in your opinion?

Why are more "praise songs" led during first service as they have been more and more frequently over the last few months? This seems kind of arrogant to me.

Why is there now, all of a sudden, an Easter drama, and only during second service? Most of the more "liberal" people I know at Madison give biblical examples of things like "lifting holy hands" while singing or praying...or biblical examples of "prayer postures." There's no example of drama in worship. How di