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Re: Is Sunday School Biblical?

September 16 2012, 10:34 PM 

Ken, I would think staying in the Bible would be important to a Christian.
"Teaching that which is written for our learning"
Any of Enoch's work that is in the Bible is fine. To use any of Enoch's work that is outside the Bible is wrong. Should "B" explain the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command to you?

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

"Staying in the Bible"

September 17 2012, 12:59 AM 


You are correct -- that the Christian discern God's truth from non-truths.

Ken does that. However, he has an advantage. He uses references (accurate secular history books, non-canonized books, writings by the "church fathers," Restoration Movement writings, Reformation leaders, etc.) that prove and qualify for those of us who are not as informed and as convinced what is already revealed in the Holy Scripture.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: "Staying in the Bible"

September 17 2012, 12:22 PM 

The inspired writers--prophets and apostles guided by the Spirit of Christ--ALWAYS set up the pagan THESIS so that people will be AWARE when they teach the Christian ANTITHESIS. Any one with the ability to read BLACK text on BROWN paper could not MISS that fact.

I have covered ALL of the never-instrumental teachings of Paul and Peter and shown that the SINGING word has the object of TEACHING THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN.

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro,
and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Even with a Phduh, these false teachers cannot define words: Li'l David would DEPRIVE us of extra-Biblical literature WITHOUT WHICH NO SCHOLAR COULD READ THE BIBLE.

Panourgia (g3834) pan-oorg-ee'-ah; from 3835; adroitness, i.e. (in a bad sense) trickery or sophistry: - (cunning) craftiness, subtilty.

-Panourg-êma A. knavish trick, villainy, S.El.1387 (lyr.), LXX Si.1.6 (v.l.); sophistry, Gal.5.251; cf. panourgeuma.

The Wise Sophos A. skilled in any handicraft or art, clever, mostly of poets and musicians, Pi.O.1.9, P.1.42, 3.113; en kithara s. E.IT1238 in music and singing,.

SO, you see SINGING is not MUSIC according to all known history. MUSIC demands that you get ALL of your body gyrating including playing and DANCING. Virtual dancing takes place when little limpy singer waves his hand, moves his body and claps his hands KNOWING that he is--according to the Fuller lade--creating a sexual-like climatic experience with the "spirit." Shelly quotes Lucado to say that the "Spirit is the song writer and DANCE master: you cannot really dance until you quit trying to follow the BOOK."

"Worship Teams" make themselves into a VOCAL BAND and the style is ORGANUM or after the pipe organ: not Congregational singing.

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Re: Is Sunday School Biblical?

September 16 2012, 10:07 PM 

Dave has an unusual "Bible." He went to the Bible printers and told them to make him a copy with Jude 1:14-15 deleted, because Jude quotes a prophecy from the Book of Enoch, which is not a part of the current biblical canon. Therefore, Dave figured that since Jude had obviously "erred" in quoting Enoch, Dave wasn't about to have a "spurious" passage in his "Bible."

And that's not all Dave had done to his "Bible." Because Dave was sure that the New Testament "forgot" to include instrumental music when it mentioned singing and making melody in the heart, he had the printers add to Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 the following statement: "But God didn't say not to have instruments to enhance and accompany the singing."

Finally, Dave had the printers remove Deut. 4:2 and Rev. 22:18-19, because those passages cite the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command. Change agents feel more comfortable using use big-time musical entertainment to draw in and keep the crowds if that command doesn't "clutter" their Bibles.

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(no login)

Back to the topic

September 23 2012, 3:35 AM 

We know very little about what Christians did on the first day of the week other than they met. We have gathered glimpses of singing, preaching, giving, prophesy, eating, speaking in tongues, prayer, reading -- but we have to interpolate from other knowledge, really, to understand their assembly. Others have cited teaching and studying daily. We know that the early congregations had leadership, and we know that we are to "Obey [our] leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account." If our leaders set up a time on the first day of the week for age appropriate study it would seem that we have a responsibility to participate.

I am unconvinced that first century Christians say the assembly in parts like many of us. Sunday school as apart from and before "worship" as apart from after worship when it is o.k. to pot luck. I think that they assembled, and they were assembled doing various things until the assembly was over.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Back to the topic

September 23 2012, 11:36 AM 

That's true: they didn't hop in their chariot and run down to the local congregation. Like the synagogue many would be a local group in a small village: in larger cities many of the outlying people would have to travel and bring along their food. in later history some held 'festivals' to attract the people who would not otherwise be able to attend weekly.

Most civilized people had societies to out for the poor.

One of the Campbells spoke of "local societies" where everyone could assemble to read and muse the word and probably take care of other local affairs. That's what I remember in my youth.

That sounds like Paul who, in Romans 14, told the people to allow what edified and "doubtful disputations" left out private opinion. In Romans 15 this allowed using one mind and one mouth to speak that which is written for our learning. That can be done in smaller groups but in my latter years does not happen when the resource is replaced with the "private opinions" and doubtful disputations.

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Re: Is Sunday School Biblical?

September 24 2012, 1:24 PM 

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Does that Scripture give anyone the right to quote any of the rest of the book of Enoch as Inspired Scripture also?

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Re: Is Sunday School Biblical?

September 24 2012, 4:47 PM 

Would Jude quote a prophecy about God from Enoch if Enoch had not been inspired?

Is Dave now saying that only Enoch's prophecy about God is inspired but the rest of the Book of Enoch is not inspired?

Why would Jude bother to quote from a book if the vast majority of it was not inspired?

Is Dave reluctant to accept the Book of Enoch as inspired simply because a group of mortal men excluded Enoch centuries ago when they decided which books would comprise the biblical canon? Or maybe Dave thinks that a messenger from heaven zapped down to earth and said, "Shazzam! Here's the entire, inspired, biblical canon, but it excludes Enoch!"

As I recall, Dave initially assumed that the words "Bible" and "Holy Bible" appeared regularly throughout the canonical texts; he was "shocked" to learn that not only are those words ABSENT from the canonical texts, but that man also concocted them. Yet the Christian world accepts them as true and valid. So a man who is that ignorant about the content of Scripture would also be gullible enough to believe that we got the biblical canon directly from heaven.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Is Sunday School Biblical?

September 24 2012, 2:14 PM 

The Book of Enoch

Enoch 7:9 These are the names of their chiefs: Samyaza, who was their leader, Urakabarameel, Akibeel, Tamiel, Ramuel, Danel, Azkeel, Saraknyal, Asael, Armers, Batraal, Anane, Zavebe, Samsaveel, Ertael, Turel, Yomyael, Arazyal. These were the prefects of the two hundred angels, and the remainder were all with them. (6)

(6) The Aramaic texts preserve an earlier list of names of these Watchers:

Semihazah; Artqoph; Ramtel; Kokabel; Ramel; Danieal; Zeqiel; Baraqel; Asael; Hermoni; Matarel; Ananel; Stawel; Samsiel; Sahriel; Tummiel; Turiel; Yomiel; Yhaddiel (Milik, p. 151).

10 Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and trees.

Again, remember that the "trees" in Eden were various nations. The nation of Assyria in Ezekiel 31 was the "tallest tree in Eden" who sucked up all of the water (the word).

Wives are symbolic of "churches" in the New Testament and of God's chosen people in the Old Testament. When Israel fell into "worship like the nations" it involved songs and instruments as part of religious incantations.

The the Sons of God and Daughters of men, Chapter XIV.-Their Discoveries.

"For after the intercourse, being asked to show what they were before, and being no longer able to do so, on account of their being unable to do aught else after their defilement, yet wishing to please their mistresses, instead of themselves, they showed the bowel (marrow) of the earth; I mean, the choice metals, [flowers of metal] gold, brass, silver, iron, and the like, with all the most precious stones.

And along with these charmed stones, they delivered the arts of the things pertaining to each, and imparted the discovery of magic, and taught astronomy,

and the powers of roots, and whatever was impossible to be found out by the human mind; also the reeking of gold and silver, and the like, and the various dyeing of garments. And all things, in short,

which are for the adornment and delight of women, are the discoveries of these demons bound in flesh.

Of the king of Tyre as an agent of Lucifer, Ezekiel wrote:

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold:
the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Eze.28:13

Just rejoice and be glad that you will NEVER EVER find a jot or tittle of opinion which does NOT associate ALL of the hypocritic arts used to silence the Word of God with The Devil: Jesus said that the Sons of the Devil speak on their own when Christ in Isaiah 58 OUTLAWED speaking your own words on the future REST day. The Ministers of the Devil or Babylon Mother of Harlots are called "FRUITS."

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Is Sunday School Biblical?

September 24 2012, 6:04 PM 

The Book of Jubilees, Chapter One reads:

And the Lord said unto Moses: 'I know their contrariness and their thoughts and their stiffneckedness, and they will not be obedient till they confess

23 their own sin and the sin of their fathers. And after this they will turn to Me in all uprightness and with all (their) heart and with all (their) soul,

and I will circumcise the foreskin of their heart and the foreskin of the heart of their seed,
and I will create IN them A holy spirit,
and I will cleanse them so that they shall not turn away from Me from that day unto eternity.

24 And their souls will cleave to Me and to all My commandments, and they will fulfil My
25 commandments, and I will be their Father and they shall be My children.

And they all shall be called children of the living God, and every angel and every spirit shall know, yea, they shall know that these are My children, and that I am their Father in uprightness and righteousness, and that

26 I love them. And do thou write down for thyself all these words which I declare unto thee on this mountain, the first and the last, which shall come to pass in all the divisions of the days in the law and in the testimony and in the weeks and the jubilees unto eternity, until I descend and dwell
27 with them throughout eternity.'

Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD;
.....My spirit that is upon thee,
.....and my words which I have put in thy mouth,
shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever

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Racnor (short timer)
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Re: Is Sunday School Biblical?

September 24 2012, 8:43 PM 

Mindy has more issues. No one has taken the time to respond to them. Does Mindy's husband sound like anyone you may know? No "Simple Simon sez sisters sit" allowed. happy.gif


Re: Is Sunday School Biblical (Mindy, June 14 2004 at 1:47 AM) June 15 2004, 8:01 PM

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond. My husbands take on things has to do with women teaching, family being seperate where you put faith in others as to what your children are learning, and the fact that it is a study called by Elders which makes it a part of the worship.

I wholeheartedly agree with what you have to say. I love the Church of Christ and feel that I have learned more truth than ever before since attending church. What bothers me is that, at least the church we go to, seems to be ver legalistic ON SOME THINGS while throwing caution to the wind on others.

There is some splitting of hairs on this issue I believe. Women are allowed to teach a Bible study but not allowed to teach in a worship service. So we go through the eternal debate over what constitutes a worship service and such. I say that I want to feel alive in my walk while he says that your walk isn't about feelings. I say that God wants us to have joy. He sees joy as very different from happiness.

A bit of background to explain why his views are as such. He comes from a devout Church of Christ family who believe that Sunday School is wrong, celebrating Christmas is wrong, everything has to be done a certain way, etc. There have been endless debates with his family over them holding on to scripture that isn't even scripture. He went to a very small church where there was little emotion and a large sense of duty. Because of this, you don't go to church because of the feeling it gives you or anything like that. You go because you are not supposed to forsake the assembly.

I am in the process of trying to figure all of this out too so once again, I thank you for taking the time to research all of this and respond.

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(no login)

Re: Is Sunday School Biblical?

September 24 2012, 9:27 PM 

I thought Donnie's response to Mindy's question eight years ago was sufficient. If Mindy had other questions, she would have asked them at that time. Since it doesn't look like Mindy has posted anything in eight years, she evidently doesn't need further help. But if Racnor feels compelled to keep the topic open, then by all means he should enlighten Mindy (wherever she is) as well as the rest of us. happy.gif

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Mindy Has More Issues

September 24 2012, 10:22 PM 


I have reviewed the timeline:

1. No one from CM or else responded at that time to Mindy's second post dated June 14, 2004.

2. The response from was dated September 13 2012, 12:08 AM.

3. H.Roberson responded to Mindy's initial post on June 17 2004, 10:57 PM.

4. So, let's pursue this discussion even if it is only among ourselves. Any volunteer?

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Re: Mindy Has More Issues

September 24 2012, 11:27 PM 

I'm sure Racnor would be glad to start. After all, he keeps asking for more discussion, so let him lead on!

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Racnor (gone)
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Re: Mindy Has More Issues

September 25 2012, 9:23 AM 

"B", I have no time for an ambush today. I would ask that you spend the next few months becoming more familiar with Mindy's issues. We will discuss in detail upon my return. Hasta la vista! happy.gif

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Re: Mindy Has More Issues

September 25 2012, 4:38 PM 

Racnor calls for more discussion, but when we invite him to lead on, he suddenly becomes paranoid and thinks it's an "ambush." Maybe he should just stay away from this topic if it's gonna affect him like that.

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(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Mindy Has More Issues

September 25 2012, 6:02 PM 

Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Hebrews 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Hebrews 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Hebrews 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

2 Maccabees 7

1 - It happened also that seven brothers and their mother were arrested and were being compelled by the king, under torture with whips and cords, to partake of unlawful swine's flesh.

See 4th Maccabees for torturing

2 - One of them, acting as their spokesman, said, "What do you intend to ask and learn from us? For we are ready to die rather than transgress the laws of our fathers."

3 - The king fell into a rage, and gave orders that pans and caldrons be heated.

4 - These were heated immediately, and he commanded that the tongue of their spokesman be cut out and that they scalp him and cut off his hands and feet, while the rest of the brothers and the mother looked on.

5 - When he was utterly helpless, the king ordered them to take him to the fire, still breathing, and to fry him in a pan. The smoke from the pan spread widely, but the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die nobly, saying,

6 - "The Lord God is watching over us and in truth has compassion on us,
as Moses declared (spoke or recited) in his song
which bore witness against the people to their faces,
when he said, `And he will have compassion on his servants.'"

7 - After the first brother had died in this way, they brought forward the second for their sport. (mocking) They tore off the skin of his head with the hair, and asked him, "Will you eat rather than have your body punished limb by limb?"

1611 KJV: Hebrews 11:35 - the note in the margin reads, "2 Macc. 7:7," a cross-reference to a book of 2 Maccabees in the Apocrypha

Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: Heb 11:35

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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)

Not only sunday school but at every opportunity

September 25 2012, 6:32 PM 

The post above should underscore how intense and bible-accurate should be our sunday school lessons. We are to grow our children to be faithful until death regardless of circumstances.

Consider that we are at war with evil on many levels.

Consider that many will be seduced and give heed to doctrines of demons. We need to develop countermeasures against this weapon of satan. One of those countermeasures is the sunday school program.

Much treasure of time, talent and money could be wasted over this issue if we are not careful. Stick to hunting Satan's ideas and methods and informing the young and old. There is no time to waste.

Comments welcome

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(no login)

Sunday school not all that good

May 26 2013, 1:27 PM 

I'm not sure if you'll get to read this because i've just seen the post, might be too late but for anyone else who has the same question....i'm a mother of 3 and i asked exactly the same question. Everywhere in the Bible where it talks about teaching children, the Word of God refers to the parents, not strangers and not Sunday School Pastors etc.

Deuteronomy 6:6-7 "...You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. "

Ephesians 6:4 "Fathers,... bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord."

Proverbs 13:22 "A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, but the sinner's wealth is laid up for the righteous. "

2 Timothy 3:14-15 "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. "

we came to the conclusion that we'd rather have our children next to us in church as you don't really know what kind of ideas the sunday school teacher will put in your child's mind. You can't trust people just because they go to the same church as you. You dont' know what is in their hearts and what they really believe and they will put that stuff into your child's head and heart. Listen to what the Bible says:

Jeremiah 17:5 "Cursed is the one who trusts in man..."

Micah 7:5-6 "Put no trust in a neighbor; have no confidence in a friend; guard the doors of your mouth from her who lies in your arms; for the son treats the father with contempt, the daughter rises up against her mother, the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house."

Proverb 3:5 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding."

Psalm 118: 8 "It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man."

Doesn't matter if they are the same religion, your faith is different. Faith is something else. It's something you believe with all your heart not just something your've been taught. We are called to trust God alone. Only you can be sure of what goes into your child's mind and heart. Giving your children's heart for someone else to sow seeds in it..?? Ummmm. if you feel easy about it, i guess that's fine. But you'll reap what you sowed. The other issue we thought about is that raising the children in church next to the parents, they learn to stay in church. But being away from their parents in another room, will get them ready to start ditching church because all their growing life they've been somewhere else rather than in church. Any christian parent who doesn't teach their children about God and His word and they rather have someone else teach them is neglecting their children's souls.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Sunday school not all that good

May 26 2013, 4:12 PM 

Sounds good to men: published material has always had it's on agenda. And that agenda may be the unfaithful agenda of the few people who exercise control. Furthermore, it usually proves that the Bible theme is used as a "launch pad" by people who read just enough to get the idea.

By far the worst agenda which violates the principles of the Word is that about grade 6 the children grasp that the leaders are insulting their learning ability. An elder that I worked with for some time is a well known "learning" scholar: I told him that his was the Paul Mason theory: we will teach NO FACTS until the right time. A child is never too young to hear the truth spoken in their ears and practiced by their parents. They will absorb the truth and at the right time will understand the spiritual meaning.

In a real experience, my oldest daughter refused to use material which used a PIG as the main character to teach the Old Testament! happy.gif

Another real experience, the published material had 12th graders "cutting out and pasting." And you can't trust the sermons either. It's only important what YOU believe and practice.

Me? been there, done that, some badly but time heals.

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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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