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Donnie Cruz
(no login)


August 17 2004, 3:57 AM 

Some of the expressions derived from the above post follow—they’re bolded or underscored. These expressions well describe the “musical festival” during the assembly in which Keith Lancaster is THE “WORSHIP LEADER.” In case you, as a reader, didn’t know, the assembly or gathering of the saints, by “contemporary worship” standards, is not worship unless there is a Worship Leader. Therefore, the Worship Leader leads his followers, the regular folks, into God’s presence … Wow! [Please check this out in your Bible and let me know your findings]:

Our heavenly Father, Whom we worship, does not have a “Praise Team.” But Mr. Lancaster’s “Praise Team” is his “musical performers” in the worship theatre. They are the “SCORPIONS or LOCUSTS who STING you with maddening music … The sting in the tail is something like singing HIGH PITCHED human odes or hymns.” One Sunday this month, the Praise Team was humming the tune to “The Old Rugged Cross” during the partaking of the cup. Why? Well, it was performance. Keith’s team could have just as easily sung the words: “On a hill far away stood an old rugged cross, the emblem of suffering and shame … I will cling to the old rugged cross, and exchange it some day for a crown.”

So what happens when the NEW STYLE WORSHIP is turned loose? The EFFECTS OF music which produces endorphins are evident. They hope to get Jesus and others to SING and DANCE while they pipe. Again, on that Sunday, the Worship Leader and his team were singing, “This Is How We Overcome.” That same line is sung and repeated at least 7 times in a row in the song. What an experience it was for me personally [being facetious here, I think] when some commotion caught my attention during the singing of that song. You see, the song has these words: “You have turned my mourning into dancing; you have turned my sorrow into joy….” It was there in plain view: two young men were actually making a 360-degree turn [they performed this twice] while singing “you have turned.” At the end of this musical piece, the Worship Leader initiated the congregational applause, and the regular rhythmic hand clappers “obeyed” the Worship Leader.

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Kenneth Sublett
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MARKED by the MARKERS! It's in the Book!

August 17 2004, 4:32 PM 

Donnie, thanks for the comments: it all fits the prophesied pattern. And, in Paul's words, since fools love to be fooled, they are just gulping down the KoolAid and loving it. That would bother me just as Waco troubled me if they were not doing what they have CHOSEN to do long ago. People take the wrong fork in the road and it is utterly impossible to get off the buss. My advice in the coming months is to GET OFF and walk with Jesus. I am not a prophet but all of the evidence points to mid September to Mid October as Joe's festival marked by the STAR'S Heliacal rising. Aster or star ALWAYS carried the meaning of an abnormal but abnormally appealing personality.

I sometimes wonder if I am being led down a rabbit hole filled with rattlesnakes when I look at the Greek and Hebrew resources. I could accept my delusion as accused IF I could launch into the resources ANY WHERE and NOT find our new style "worship leaders" identical to those of the pagan temples where, as Carol Wimber (Vineyard, aka New Wineskins symbol) claims that the NEXT TO LAST act was having sex with the Spirit--Just before 'giving of means.' It has been prophesied in ALL respects if you look for the SIGNS as covered with smoke and haze. Satan's sons would not be wiser than the sons of God if they could be easily detected. I thrill when I catch a glimpse of the "woman" called Lilith in the Jewish legends: after the ACT OF WORSHIP Adam was surprised as what a huge, hideous, repulsive creature she was.

You will remember that when Saul was TURNED into another man the word means PERVERT. His manic prophesying turned the masculine warriors against him until God proved that he could lead. Demanding a king or "dominant elder" was the final blow and God intended to lead the CHILDREN from Canaan land into Babylon. The musical Levites were not WORSHIP LEADERS but WARRIOR musicians intending to PANIC you to death or captivity while making you FEEL the joy of the foreplay. Yes, she is the Babylonian Prostitute: named CIRCE in John's symbols which the "new style preacher" need to denounce.

We know that THEIR LEADING was into captivity and death. These were the same "Levites" who strangely had Canaanite names for their bands and who were still PIPING (to steal your inheritance, to pollute, to prostitute in Hebrew) hoping that John wore SOFT clothing and Jesus and others would sing and dance to prove their TURNING (twice 360 degrees) covers the KOSMOS.

If we believe Jesus these are spirits from old. John says that Abaddon or Apollyon would dig up the locusts or musical ministers. They will MARK or separate those with the MARK of the beast from those who have the MARK of the Word and baptism. The "plagues" in revelation sound like someone coming to your AID with a used needle.

The Jewish clergy was not made up of true Jews: they claimed to have Abraham for their father but Jesus said that they had the wrong spiritual MOTHER. Hagar speaks of Egypt, Mount Sinai, Jerusalem and Slavery. They were Kenites or Cainites or Canaanites but not Israelites. Therefore, John calls Jerusalem Egypt and Sodom. Because Satan (Lucifer, Zoe, Abaddon) is not a fool, and we know that most churches have been TAKEN CAPTIVE, it would be an outrage if he had not FILLED the pulpit which God in Christ never declared empty.

The anti-God clergy wanted to MARK Jesus as DIONYSUS (son of Zeus) or the New Wineskin "god" who was part of the abomination of desolation in the holy precincts at Jerusalem. Josephus speaks of the Levitical Singers who wanted to put on linen (clergy) garments and sing again. They were warned that they (LEVITICAL MUSICIANS) had led the nation into captivity and death once and they would do it again. But, Jesus did not BOW to Baal and that is the image of CASTING OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG as Lucifer (Zoe) had been cast out at first. The dance was the "rising up to play" which David performed in the buff:

Orcheomai of the Pyrrhic dance, playing the flute, singing hymns:
    Schema: Play the flute and 2. appearance, OPPOSITE the reality, show, pretense, fashion, manner, a figure in Dancing, figures, gestures. The MUSES in Revelation 18:22 cut a figure fit for hell.
2. represent by dancing or pantomime, orcheisthai tên tou Kronou teknophagian, o. ton Aianta (Atlas)
    Kronos ho, Cronos, is BIOS. Later interpreted as, = CHRONOS, cf. Arist.Mu.401a15. Bios, ho, life, i. e. not animal life ([ZOE]), but MODE of life

    2. He is the planet SATURN (666). This is the MARK of Farmer's Branch SABBATON or the Babylon seventh day worship: hêmera Saturday, Hêmeros, sabbatôn, title of Artemis in Arcadia,

    II. nickname for a dotard, old fool. He is like Jupiter whose SICKLE in Hebrew is the name of a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT.

Kronos or bios or MODES of life is associated with Rhe who is Zoe or Eve of whom Paul warned the usurping, run ahead women. He is associated with ZEUS and PAIS which the PLAY the perverted clergy wanted to engage Jesus in the market place or AGORA or place of assembly--church, no less.

The dancing with Kronos or Zoe or Eve was for the purpose of:
    teknophagian meaning the devouring of children

    II. metaph., leap, bound, orcheitai de kardia phobôi A.Ch.166 , cf. Anaxandr.59 ; Thessaliê ôrchêsato Thessaly SHOOK, TREMBLED, Call.Del.139.

      Kardia is heart or the center of joy or fear.
More Orcheomai When the hands lift up and the voice goes shrill and the body begins to gyrate it is not WORSHIP: it is FEAR. Pure Panic caused by Pan the homosexual BEAST in the book of Revelation where his ten horns are his PANpipes representing little goats trying to rise above the plains to LOOK TO THE HILLS.
    Phobos , ho, ( [phebomai] ) panic flight, the usual sense in Hom. He is Apollo or Apollôn who creates THERAS thêras phobôi or fear of the WILD BEASTS (parallel to ZOE, the BEAST and "female instructing principle"). He/she creates panic and the rejecting of scruples.
The PLAY at Mount Sinai and the PROPHESYING when Saul was TURNED and David's naked dance was ALWAYS something reserved for women or strange men. When males begin to twitch mark it down that a signal has been sent and received.

When we LOVE someone we understand that it is a personal thing: when we LOVE God there are no fathers and brethren to make it WORK. When we worship God is it also personal and it is one of the most obscene and outrageous things that DUES PAYING AUDIENCES set still to hire someone to DO or LEAD the worship. That puts you back at base ZERO with absolutely no spiritual knowledge left. Remember the talents: if you don't use YOUR approach to God He will take it away from you. A sign of lostness beyond redemption is sitting in the spectator's seat and applauding those who spirit in the face of a Holy God. God gives us no burden for the blind.


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(no login)

Christian Music

August 20 2004, 2:23 PM 

A poster on the site writes:


"Re: Do you listen and approve of CC music? Reply

I have to jump in here. My daughter and I really got into CC music years ago. We got so burned out on the whole thing, we haven't listened to it in 3 years. I was just talking with my 17 year old daughter and she was saying it all seemed so "artificial".
Let me give you a little background. My mother was a nanny for a man that was in advertising and entertainment here in Tulsa. He handled a few of the top names in CC music. He had to quit because the whole situation brought him so close to losing his faith. He said that some of his clients would be walking around taking God's name in vain immediately before the concert would start, "praise God through the concert", then after it was over, go back to their potty mouths and hateful attitudes. He also had one of his clients, one of the biggest names in CC music, joke with him all the time that a few times, girls would come up to him after a concert and say, "God told me you were here and lonely and wants me to offer myself to you" This top name in CC said he had taken the opportunity to avail himself of the "services" the girls offered because "who was he to argue with God". He said that not all of the CC entertainers were like this, but more were like this than you'd imagine. He was so upset about the whole thing and quit promoting CC entertainers all together.
Another thing...back in October of 2003, Michael W. Smith and Mercy Me came here to Tulsa for a concert. During the concert, Bart Millard gave a speech about what he thought heaven would be like. After the speech, they showed a video of teens testifying about what they thought heaven would be like. One young man on the video said, "heaven will be full of hot girls where you can do anything you want with them" Then audience laughed and there were a few cheers. What a thing to say! It was planned, too. It was on a video that was shown. They knew what was on the video. The next day, the Tulsa World's music writer wrote a review of the concert and quoted this statement. How embarassing for the christian community. Some people around here were complaining about the statement, but others were saying, "whatever it takes to bring kids to the Lord". And it was "un-christian to criticize a brother in Christ"
My daughter and I went to a 4-Him concert a few years ago. We really enjoyed the music, but the way some of the teen girls were dressed and what they were yelling out to the group didn't sound "christian" at all. It sounded like they were worshipping the guys instead of the Lord.
While I'm on my tirade, when we used to watch CC music videos to TV, we got to noticing that "some" of the ladies singing were dressing very provacatively and trying to act sexy while singing these "praise" songs. Made us uncomfortable.
I'm not saying "all" CC entertainers are like this. The thing is, if your children listen to these artists, please keep reminding them not to start worshipping the artist. I could tell a lot of girls, imparticular, were so infatuated with these singers at the concerts that their minds were only on the singer, not the Lord. I've taken heat for expressing my viewpoints on this before, and I'm sure I will again. I realize that "nobody's perfect", but those that hold themselves up as contemporary worship entertainers should be more careful about their personal and private lives.
I did have a lot of respect for Rich Mullins, though. He may have had me fooled, but he seemed sincere and like he loved God."


I personally don't listen to Christian rock or Christian contemporary or whatever you call it, but I think this poster's experiences with it says a lot about what's possibly behind a lot of it, as well as the dangerous emotions and feelings that it can stimulate. This type of music is closely associated with the "praise team contemporary type singing" that has invaded such churches as Madison.


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Dr. Bill Crump
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RE: Christian Music

August 20 2004, 5:50 PM 

Dan Lucanrini's book, "Why I Left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement: Confessions of a Former Worship Leader," presents much revealing information about the mindset of the CC music industry from one who was on the "inside." Just as the poster on the IBelieve site told of the ungodly lives that many (but not all) CC performers led, Lucarini tells a similar story from personal experiences.

At the church where I was a former member, CC music reigned. On one Sunday before Christmas, the "praise team" presented several rock renditions of traditional Christmas carols during a worship service. As the drums crashed, as the beat pounded, and as the electric guitars screeched, some of the teenage girls standing in the pews were swaying their hips and gyrating to the rhythm, as if they were in a secular rock concert, as if they were "coming on" to the performer and "gettin' down."

At that same service, a man came on stage and presented a solo rendition of "What Child Is This?" on the electric guitar. The performance began in traditional fashion, then suddenly he let loose with the wildest rock/jazz arrangement while prancing, jumping back and forth, and waving his instrument around in the air. The crowd went crazy with thunderous applause and jumped to their feet in a standing ovation. Was the crowd's response indicative of worshiping God or the performer?

"Whatever it takes to get kids to the Lord" is the pragmatic philosophy of the Change Movement. Yet by choosing the world's music for the Church, that philosophy deliberately ignores and defies Romans 12:2 and James 4:4.

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August 20 2004, 4:45 PM 

I think your church has missed it. Sorry to say. When someone isnt allowed to show emotion that is sad. Is it wrong to tap your foot? Where is the authority for the song leader to use his hand to lead? Let stop picking out the specs out of each others eyes.

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Wow—I’m Donnie, too.

August 23 2004, 3:53 AM 

I think the preceding is a “dislocated” post (August 20, 2004, 4:45 PM). It appears to be “in response to” the initial post, an article by Terry Mattingly titled, “WORSHIP FOR SALE, WORSHIP FOR SALE.” Yet, not really—since it said, “I think your church has missed it.” Go figure and see what this poster really meant by “your church.” Oh, well….

“When someone isn’t allowed to show emotion?” Emotion—yes! Performance—no! Shedding tears of joy when someone becomes a child of God—that’s emotion! When someone does loud programmed, rhythmic and rehearsed handclapping to get God’s attention, as well as the attention of those in attendance—that’s cheerleading and performance!

“Is it wrong to tap your foot?” No … just don’t step on someone else’s foot. No … unless I hear the annoying noise from where I sit in the balcony. No … unless it is a distraction to those near or around you. It is definitely not wrong when you do it and you’re all alone.

“Where is the authority for the song leader to use his hand to lead?” [I’m glad you did not mention “contemporary worship leader”—ah … the “leader” who leads his “followers,” the regular folks, into God’s holy presence. That would be a different topic altogether.]

Well, that’s a fair question regarding someone who leads or starts singing. But that’s really like asking where is the authority for using air conditioning or heating during worship—that you can answer yourself. I must say, though, that I have yet to hear the sound or noise produced during the hand motion. Now, when it becomes distracting, the hand probably deserves a slap.

“Let stop picking out the specs out of each others eyes.” I think I understand what you’re trying to say here. I also understand that it is not a question. But this statement has been thrown at those who do not succumb to the pressures of change in DOCTRINE, beliefs and practices where changes are either wrong or unnecessary. These are folks who stand for the truth and who see no need to improve upon God’s will for the church. WHY DON’T WE REVERSE THE SITUATION? Why don’t you tell the change agents instead? They’re the ones who have created these problems in the first place! Uh-oh!

Donnie, too!

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Dr. Bill Crump
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RE: Wow

August 23 2004, 10:16 AM 

Arguments over merely tapping your foot to a hymn and nothing more in a worship service would seem trite and trivial. But it's a far different matter when churches subscribing to the Change Movement take on the look and feel of performing arts centers with worship services that cannot otherwise be distinguished from pop-rock concerts, Broadway musicals, and nightclub floor shows.

Biblical passages such as Romans 12:2 and James 4:4 admonish Christians to be a separate group from the world, that is, not to conform to the world's standards. This certainly means to exclude the world's influences from worship. But by bringing the world's music and other worldly gimmicks into worship services (drama, dance routines, skits, praise teams, rock bands, choirs, orchestras, soloists, ensemble groups, other instrumentalists, etc.), the worship becomes like the world by adopting its appearances, sounds, and actions. Instead of being holy and reverent, such worship becomes nothing but "entertainment," designed to please the crowd, not to adore God.

Contrary to the philosophy of many, a worship service is not the place to promote "talent" and receive the accolades of men. There are concert halls and theaters in abundance where performers who live for the spotlight and applause can shake and gyrate their bodies provocatively to provocative music and have their dreams fulfilled. Promoting such "talent" only focuses attention on the performer, which is expected in the theater; in a worship service, a performer only robs God of His glory with attention to self.

God needs neither our "talent" nor our gimmicks; he desires our unadulterated worship.

We at this web site battle the unbiblical Change Movement by promoting adherence to all biblical principles, especially those as set forth in Romans 12:2, James 4:4, Matt. 7:15, Romans 16:17, and First Cor. 14:40. By doing so, have we really "missed it"? Friends, we're right on target.

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Kenneth Sublett
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Scoop on Scoopers!

August 23 2004, 12:58 PM 

Here is a link just received in the mail. It reports on all of the MEGA-MOUTHS in the spiritual daisy chain of self-promoting "ministries" and "book of the Mouth club" well reported on by John Waddey.

Old Al Maxey rides on the backs of working people and must spend about 100% of his time scooping up LEGALISMS which we violate. The premise is that this gives us the authority to use INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC in "worship." His latest is that the definition of the Show Bread was that it must be WHEATEN. But, lordy, here we got a girl who is allergic to WHEATEN so what are we gonna do if we have to make BARLEY bread for communion?

Well, firstly, we not gonna use his proof text for authority because it ALSO included some innocent animals to be crucified to MAKE the priests pure enough to eat the shewbread. Now, in the Tabernacle and later Temple, the showbread was in the Holy Place where no singer, musician or preacher could dare to go. That symbolized the synagogue (for the civil state only) while the "common" people synagogued where loud instruments and singing were outlawed for BOTH.

Barley and rye were connected with Babylonism which the Law repudiated in its symbols. Both barley and rye had been used to invent beer. Both supported ERGOT the component of LSD.

Secondly, the import of LEAVEN in the Bible and the Greek resources preaches against people who in honoring the death of Christ tend to SWELL UP. The word is directly related to AEIRO which is almost identical to ODING. People inflated themselves and the "audience" with singing and music to FERMENT them in order to CARRY THEM AWAY for their own use. This is the meaning of HERESY.

Thirdly, the word in connection with the Lord's Supper does not restrict itself to wheat. In the writings of the time leaven and intoxicants were connected. I have never heard of anyone in the "non-instrumental churches of Christ" (A RACA or curse word) dividing over the "bread." Therefore, Al Maxey defends the SECTARIANS who were those who ADDED instruments after 1850 years of almost no one using them. By their intimate connection in word definitions, SECTARIANISM or HERESY was and is almost always FACILITATED by the use of OEDING to help the preacher LIFT up himself and the audience with the SPECIFIC PURPOSE of "carrying them away for his/her OWN use and profit."

I have linked to Ezekiel which links to some others in the GRACE CENTERED STABLE:


Josephus warned the Levites in

6. Now as many of the Levites, (26) which is a tribe of ours, as were singers of hymns, persuaded the king to assemble a sanhedrim, and to give them leave to wear linen garments, as well as the priests
    for they said that this would be a work worthy the times of his government, that he might have a memorial of such a novelty, as being his doing.
Nor did they fail of obtaining their desire; for the king, with the suffrages of those that came into the sanhedrim, granted the singers of hymns this privilege, that they might lay aside their former garments,
    and wear such a linen one as they desired; and as a part of this tribe ministered in the temple,
    he also permitted them to learn those hymns as they had besought him for.
Now all this was contrary to the laws of our country, which, whenever they have been transgressed, we have never been able to avoid the punishment of such transgressions.

See the Catholic Restoration of the Levites.

ALL of those on their hate campaigns against NON-INSTRUMENTAL churches use the same lying MANTRA that they became anti-musical SECTARIANS when they refused to participate in churches which FORCED instruments onto them. They have to lie about God, the Bible, church history, restoration history and the VERY MEANING of words. But the story of Enoch, Jubilees, Adam and Eve and 3 dozen other posted resources is that when people MOUTH or USE their defense of legalistic and superstitious MIND CONTROL to 'suppliment God' they have fallen from grace and they will never get up. The story of Genun (Jubal etal) proves that they are OBSESSED (Abcessed) with trying to get people to AFFIRM their heresy.

If you can READ Dr. Crumps statement you will understand that the VOODOO beat (modern "hymns" all) deliberately TAPS INTO a God-given instinct intended to PROTECT you from the growl of a saber toothed tiger just behind you. If you make a "religion" out of exciting or inciting this instinct and then LYING by telling people that the PANIC FEELING (Pan the beast of the "horns" perverted and all the rest) is the LITTLE SPIRIT fellow jumping and jiving--are by Satan's indwelling--mortally damaging souls; making them FLY according to Ezekiel using musical prophesiers. Spiritual people will ALWAYS feel the sickness being imposed upon them to make the PLATES TINKLE and flee, or while passing the Sirens, stuff their ears with wax.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

“A Refresher Course in Instrumental Music” (by John Waddey)

January 20 2007, 5:05 PM 

A Refresher Course in Instrumental Music

A century has passed and the wheel of error has turned full circle. That which our predecessors took as a settled issue has now revived in our own ranks. This is not a dispute with representatives of the Disciples of Christ, Christian Churches, or some denominational body. These advocates are our own brethren. They have turned their backs on the worship they embraced and practiced when they first came to Christ and his church, preferring the ways of men to that.

They have no new arguments to offer. Most of them simply reason it doesn’t matter to God how we offer our praise to Him. This old error is like the virus that struck the little child with chicken pox and then 60 years later struck again as shingles. Never forget that Truth makes us free from error and sin (John 8:32). Prepare yourself, teach your brethren, confront and defeat all who try to corrupt the worship of the church. The following books will amply supply the needed ammunition to defeat the advocates of instrumental music.

  • Instrumental Music in Worship. M. C. Kurfees (Order from the Gospel Advocate, P.O. Box 150, Nashville, TN 37210.)

  • Otey-Briney Debate. W.W. Otey and J.B. Briney (instruments and missionary societies).

  • Stark-Warlick Debate. J. Carroll Stark and Joe S. Warlick (instrumental music in worship).

  • Hardeman-Boswell Debate. N.B. Hardeman and Ira Boswell (instrumental music in worship).

  • Wallace-Barber Debate. G.K. Wallace and Burton Barber (instruments in worship).

  • Wallace-Hunt Debate. G.K. Wallace and Julian Hunt (instruments in worship).

  • Shelly-Dunning Debate. Rubel Shelly and Dewaine Dunning (instruments in worship).

  • Highers-Bingham Debate. Alan Highers and Given Blakely (instruments in worship).

Of course these books vary in the capabilities and scholarship of the disputants. But in them you will find virtually every argument man has devised to justify the use of instruments of music in worship and adequate replies thereto. The valuable books can likely be found in the libraries of Christian Schools. Some will allow checkouts. JHW

[Source: Christianity: then & now (John Waddey, Editor; Volume 6, Number 6, February 1, 2007)]

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Ken Sublett
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Dunning Book

January 20 2007, 9:51 PM 

Ray Downen from the Christian Church began to post Dwayne Dunning's book in rebuttal and for a time posted links to my reviews: that stopped before he finished the book.

Dunninng's argument are the same as those by Tom Burgess who collected most of the instance where PSALLO is used to PLUCK but neve meaning PLAY or make music. He never quotes the rest of the context to show that ALL of the prooft texts the musicators rest on point explicitely to older males plucking the harp strings to seduce a young boy for an "act of worship." He had his hair "plucked" and defined by a similar word. Burgess contradicts Kurfees and I have posted rebuttals there also. The same arguments were used more violently at Richland Hills were every musical notice in the bible and church history is lied about with a high, heavey hand.

Dunning is, like most of those who cannot enjoy their "liberty" unless they get affirmation from those they SECTED OFF from. That is why there has been such underhandedness as "using' men like Max Lucado (instrumentalist) to debate the Christian church (instrumentalist) at The Tulsa Soul Wrecking Workout and the NACC meeting with Rick Atchley (instrumentalists) debating the same instrumentalists.

I have posted--and will clean up--the rebutta to the Ray Downen and Dwayne Dunning as far as Ray published parts of the Book:

This will link to sections 2 through 5. You don't have to get past part one to see that there is NO ONE promoting the ANTI-church of Christ movement who does not lie about God and lie TO God in order to OUTRUN the non-instrumentalists who ARE NOT CHASING THEM. They see a HOSTILE ATTACK mounted against the musicators when in fact it is a paranoid need to silence is the continued teaching of that which has been taught which associates instrumental worship with Satan, sacrificial altars as TYPES of sacrificing Jesus Christ, prostitutes or Sodominte. Or, as one church Father allows, idle children "just for fun."

I have Kurfees first "sermon" in a pamphlet (original) and his book on Instrumental Music. If anyone needs an excerpt I will post it. Even Kurfees lacked the resources to search the ancient literature which would confirm that there is NOTHING in recorded history which refutes anything he says. The discussion of PSALLO is based on older resources but in fact the word PSALLO (if used by Paul in the original) firstly speaks of WARFARE related to Apollo or Apollyon and the Muses whom John used to define the operatives of the Mother of Harlots (Rev 17) as Sorcerers (Rev 18) which is the MARK that the candles have been REMOVED probably at the same time Jesus removed the name of CHRIST from their mind.

The second use speaks of the blood-red rope which the authorities used to FORCE people from the agora or marketplace where they sold radishes, bodies of young boys, singers sang and instrumentalists competed INTO the ekklesia (church) which was for EDUCATION ONLY.

Way down the list is the concept of SHOOTING OUT SONGS. There is NOTHING but blood and warfare in the Word and that is why Paul MADE SURE that it did not BREAK OUT into the SPEAKING arena.

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Re: Dunning Book

January 24 2007, 10:57 AM 

When you say: "But it's a far different matter when churches subscribing to the Change Movement take on the look and feel of performing arts centers with worship services that cannot otherwise be distinguished from pop-rock concerts, Broadway musicals, and nightclub floor shows."

That exposes you as a person who either has never been to a contemporary worship service where God is being praised, OR a person who does not truly know what worship to God is. Contemporary worship is the opposite of secular entertainment. Try this, it may help. Go visit a church with contemporary instrumental music, and LISTEN TO THE WORDS! If you don't see worship to God, your problems are deeper than what anyone here can help you with.

Oh yeah, you also said: "We at this web site battle the unbiblical Change Movement by promoting adherence to all biblical principles..."
donald can't answer this question, so why don't you give it a shot. How exactly ARE you "battling" the non-existent "change movement"??? What action are you taking?

You "warn" people via a website?
You "adhere" to biblical principles? (which is questionable from you at best, but that's another issue)
What ACTION can a person take? What can a bona-fide-Bible-believing-Christian DO to stop the evil stormtroopers of the "change empire"?????

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Dunning Book

January 24 2007, 5:59 PM 

As I said earlier on several occasions, I was formerly an organist for a Baptist church. That church went contemporary with a rock band and praise team. The "music" was so loud with screeching guitars and pounding, crashing drums that NO ONE could hear the words being "sung." Not much "edification" there. The whole scenario mimicked a rock concert. I stayed around for a while until I saw that this was going to be the way that church "worshiped," which was not worship at all. It was merely entertainment.

So have I ever been to a contemporary service? You bet! Better to let all things, including worship, be done decently and in order (1 Cor. 14:40).

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Dr. Bill Crump
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The "Non-Existent" Change Movement

January 25 2007, 9:33 AM 

Amazed said: "How exactly ARE you 'battling' the non-existent 'change movement'??? What action are you taking?"

Those who claim that a "Change Movement" doesn't exist and that we are just a bunch of fear mongers belong to one of two camps: either they are not discerning enough to see the apostasy that has turned many churches away from New Testament principles, or they are indeed a part of that very movement and would convince others that such a movement is just a myth.

It's been said that the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world that he's just a myth. Hence, many believe in neither hell nor accountability for sin. Likewise, if the change agents convince the undiscerning that the Change Movement is a myth, it's much easier to take over their churches and make them apostate.

The way to battle the Change Movement is to educate people about what that movement is, its pitfalls, and its fallacies. The entire Concerned Members web site exists to do just that. Hence, we warn people via the Internet. Here, people will find links to timely articles by experienced Christian writers such as Paul Proctor, Berit Kjos, and others who have seen the ravages of churches taken over by change agents.

Some find it objectionable or scorn the use of the Internet for such a purpose. No doubt the change agents are the very ones who raise such objections, because they fear that if people are informed, they will be watchful and prepared to cast out the interlopers. What better means to reach many thousands, yea, millions of readers than by the Internet? If the Gospel can be preached via the Internet, the world can also be warned that wolves in sheep's clothing have infiltrated the Church with a despicable, worldly agenda that would make the Church an apostate of Satan himself.

Once the change agents have taken over a church, it's difficult to turn the situation around--it's gone too far, like a malignancy with widespread metastasis. That's why churches must be prepared and watchful to insure that the change agents are not allowed to compromise the Gospel ever so slightly yet progressively with political correctness, man-contrived doctrines, denominational preferences, and entertaining gimmicks that draw large crowds lusting for a good time.

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Re: The "Non-Existent" Change Movement

January 25 2007, 4:37 PM 

The problem with I Cor. 14:40, is that "decently" and "in order" are subjective terms aren't they? I fully agree that all should be done decently and in order. I have been to many old-school acapella services that were not. The church I currently attend has a rock band. Every service is decent and in order.
Remember: Reverent DOES NOT equal Boring.

As far as the non-existent change movement goes, you made an incorrect statement. There are actually THREE camps. The one you left out is the one inhabited by rational people that love God and want the best for His church, but are not under the illusion that there is a vast conspiracy of "agents" meeting together to plot the downfall of the Church of Christ denomination.
If there was a "change movement", believe me, I'd join it.

We are, however, getting closer on your action-items to stop the straw-man change movement you have created. All you said in your answer is basically: "We warn people." I KNOW THAT. That's what I said in my original post. My question is STILL, "What can the "millions" of people you claim you are reaching, DO with your warning"????

You say:
"That's why churches must be prepared and watchful to insure that the change agents are not allowed to compromise the Gospel ever so slightly yet progressively with political correctness, man-contrived doctrines... blah, blah, blah..."

Here is my question yet again:
IF the churches are "prepared and watchful" HOW are they to "insure" that these things don't happen? ACTION is what I'm looking for here bill, action. Not warnings, not words, not fake preparation. Action. What can they DO about it?

I will give you a hint: It's starts with "N" and ends with "OTHING"

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Not Impressed
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The “Change Movement” in Existence

February 22 2007, 1:34 PM 


The “Change Movement” is a byproduct of the NEW AGE psychology in religion which promotes worldwide ecumenism. It initially gained acceptance in the denominational world—with the perception of a global church that encompasses all religious groups—but, unfortunately, has crept into churches of Christ. Among churches of Christ that have succumbed to this New Age religious ideology, the emphasis has been—and contrary to what we have learned from the Scripture concerning its foundation and its founder—that the church that Jesus Christ built on Pentecost is a just another denomination.

Unbeknownst to you and others of your persuasion, you’ve been brainwashed into thinking that the church of Jesus Christ is no different than the Christian Scientist and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormon), or any of the other denominations of your categorization. So, you have arrived at the premise or expression called “Church of Christ denomination” from the NEW AGE psychology—not from the church that you have left for the “Rock Bandage” fellowship. I’m sure that your new found denomination entertains you very well, and that you have all the freedom to persuade others to join your church “on the rocks.”

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Sour Grapes

February 22 2007, 2:06 PM 

Not Impressed:
Tradition is just a matter of preferrence. Tradition is good, but so is the changes going on in the church. They are BOTH GOOD! LIFE IS GOOD!!!
Right Bill?
They are both good because neither nixes the Scriptures. One PREFERS it this way, while the other PREFERS it another way. I think it is AWESOME that a congregation can live in harmoney by promoting the two seperate camps (traditionalists and Contemporary), by having two different services on Sunday. So why all the fuss??? Are you still worried that if an instrument is brought into the service that we will look too denominational? It has nothing to do with that, but whether it is antiScriptural....which we have proven over and over that it is not antiScriptural.

Uh oh.....I forgot that I wasn't going to post here any longer.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Sour Grapes

February 22 2007, 7:08 PM 

Servant, tell us about this book that you claim to be writing. Are you under contract with a reputable publisher to write this book? If so, what is the company, and did you receive a sizeable advance (exact figures are not necessary)? Have you already composed a title? When is the proposed date of publication? We are indeed interested in your upcoming work.

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Not Impressed
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The Simplistic Approach to “Tradition”—Types of Traditions NOT Differentiated

February 23 2007, 1:36 PM 


It’s a shame, Servant, that as an elder who would not object to … but promote, endorse, approve or condone the use of instrumental music in your non-instrumental congregation, you have lumped together all forms of traditions. The Bible clearly speaks of different forms of traditions (cf. the gospels; I Peter 1:18; II Thess. 2:15; Gal. 1:14; II Thess. 3:6; Col. 2:8).

Your bloviation regarding these matters can only create confusion and division in the church you still claim to be a member of. It appears that you have no regard for the body to be of the same mind and of the same judgment as the Holy Scripture indicates.

Servant, I am not authorized to change Christ’s doctrine and APOSTOLIC TRADITIONS, and neither are you. But if you meant to say “changing human tradition(s),” then, I’m fine with that. Changing the assembly time from 10:00 am to 3:30 pm does not violate God’s directives. Changing the observance of the Lord’s Supper to a “fellowship meal” or from the first day of the week to Wednesday, Thursday or another day of the week DOES violate God’s directives.

Do you still not see the difference? If so, other examples of human traditions that are wrong would be the Roman Catholic Church’s teachings as worshipping Mary as the “Mother of God” or the hierarchical positions in the RCC (papal, the bishopric, etc.)

If nothing else, let me point out that you are mistaking “preferences” for apostolic teachings and traditions.

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Ken Sublett
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February 23 2007, 2:02 PM 

The Catholic Encyclopedia confesses that instruments along with candles and all of the stuff was ADDED because it was COMMON TO ALL PAGAN CULTS. If they thought that the Bible authorized it AND they did not have to use their RIGHT TO CHANGE they would have used Scripture. These additions were made by new priests converting to Christianity to get PAID and were not baptized believers.

However, the Catholic knew the ropes and NEVER engaged in congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment: the organ played by the local professionnals and composers added preludes, interludes and recessionals. For the PRECENTER (the first heresy largely pervading the church says McClintock and Strong) it set the PITCH.

The Catholic Encyclopedai still defines congregational singing as SCRIPTURAL and DESIRABLE to restore. The organ was never used in the presence of the Pope who conducted the ONLY official mass in the Sistine Chapel where he introduced tht A capella team from france.

Jewish Liturgical Music

If there was a jot or tittle of evidence NOT CONDEMING instruments all of those people would not have to lie about EVERY musical passage and historical scholar. Lying TO God and ABOUT God is without redemption.

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Re: Dunning Book

March 3 2007, 1:22 AM 


Could you explain to me how you have come to the conclusion that the new form of worship, which was started as a marketing gimmick, is not entertainment based?

Personally, I find people who are clapping, dancing, riding motorcycles, rockwall climbing, dancing around with their guitar as part of the worship service quite entertaining. I can't say that they EVER made me think about God, in fact, I felt about as far away from Spiritualness as I could get.

Who exactly are we entertaining during these services? When did worshipping God become something that has to be fun and exciting? Is He not enough for us? I didn't realize worship was about making US the center of attention. And to think, all this time I thought God was our focus. Silly me.

The First Christians sat on rocks/ground for days on end, listening to Jesus speak in parables. Now, I'm not meaning to be slow here, but the last time I read one of his sermons/parables, I didn't see anything to start clapping and getting physically excited about. In fact, I found his sermons and the Apostles sermons to be quite serious and thought provoking. Nothing that I would see mixed with a band or stomping/clapping choir. Instead, as Paul teaches us, I take it very serious and very somberly (Yes, the word SOMBER is used in relationship to assembly - SHOCKING!) This is my soul and eternity I'm working on here, not the Christian American Idol.

You know, the Jews tried to liven up their services and God left them to their enemies. He definitely had issues with the Jews trying to change up his instructions. Why do you feel he has "lightened up" and become more "open" to such things? Are you saying God was flawed and had to "evolve" to keep up with us more modern/intelligent humans of the 21st century?

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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

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120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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