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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
68.19.211.122

Re: ?? (Re: Ice Cream)

March 8 2005, 3:00 AM 

John,

Your original question was: “Would having an ice cream supper, inviting the neighborhood non church going, be considered "change movement activity" or "traditional church activity?”

After my response, you then stated, “I am not sure of the meaning of your reply. Are you making fun of the question? Is the flavor that important? How did Janet Jackson become involved in a community ice cream supper?”

I didn’t mean for you to take it that way. I honestly felt that your question was fair and sincere. Isn’t it common knowledge when an activity occurs, such as inviting non-church-going neighbors and friends, that there is a motive, objective or purpose, such as getting acquainted with others or letting others know about the Lord’s church, etc.?

Having an ice cream supper, IMO, is not really an issue that causes or should cause division in the church. I would consider it as neither a “change movement activity” nor “traditional.” It is not a doctrinal or salvation matter that is being taught or that which causes a conflict … although I might say that the change advocates would like to use that as an example of their defense mechanisms to prove, e.g., that rhythmic clapping or rhythmic arm waving during singing [as you see in hard rock concerts] is likewise not prohibited in “speaking to one another” in congregational singing.

Having said all that, another common motive is accommodation. Comfortably watching a “Super Bowl” event at home is not supposed to supersede the “Sunday evening worship service.” That’s the reason why I mentioned the disguised “’Super’ Bowl Sunday Celebration Service”—not only at Madison but also in Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, Community Churches, etc. Hopefully, John, this helps explain my earlier post and why the Janet Jackson [let’s say] “commercial” in the 2004 Super Bowl was mentioned. As far as I know, there was no “Souper Bowl Sunday Celebration Service” in 2005 at Madison, unless it wasn’t publicized.

Therefore, I cited the “Super Bowl” example(s) to show how far the leadership of a congregation can go with “things” that have entertainment to offer. It is hardly enough to just spread the simple gospel message of Christ as it is. (By the way, Dr. Crump clearly explains all this in his post above.)

Donnie

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
207.69.48.166

Man-Contrived Worship Accoutrements Lead No One to Christ

March 11 2005, 12:26 AM 

A major fallacy preached by community churches and the Change Movement is that worship must be made attractive and interesting to keep people coming back to church, to keep the seats (not pews) filled. Because the present generation doesn’t regard the pure and simple Word of God alone as a significant drawing card, the Change Movement believes that people will be much more likely to come to Christ, or at least attend services, if the worship environment is made more “relevant” through a host of eye-catching, audibly pleasing accoutrements. These include such elements as drama, skits, puppet shows, pop/rock music, praise teams, ensemble groups, instrumentalists, soloists, choirs, and other assorted performers, whose job is to “assist” worship by “leading the congregation into the presence of God.” To the Change Movement, these elements are essential to draw in the crowds. The New Testament, however, implies that they are useless.

Christ states in John 6:44-45 (KJV): “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” People hear and learn of the Father directly through simple preaching of the Word, as stated in 1 Cor. 1:21 (KJV): “For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”

These passages imply that if anyone is destined to come to Christ, he must first hear and learn of God from the preached Word. These passages further imply that it is God, and God alone, Who brings people to Christ, not that which gratifies the senses: not assorted eye and ear candy, not assorted entertainment media, not adrenaline highs, and not emotional chaos. No matter what the Change Movement states, the New Testament implies that man-contrived worship accoutrements alone simply cannot persuade anyone to follow Christ. Therefore, such innovations are useless and superfluous. Therefore, why clutter worship with them? Furthermore, why pollute worship with that which the Bible has not specifically authorized?

Christ went about simply preaching the Word. He taught through parables and accomplished His mission utilizing neither props, nor drama, nor praise teams, nor performers seeking the accolades of men. All who responded to Him did so after hearing the simple Word of God preached, not after jumping to their feet in thunderous applause to a praise team. Today, should we not follow Christ’s example of simplicity?

 
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Kent S
(no login)
63.244.5.1

Re: Man-Contrived Worship Accoutrements Lead No One to Christ

March 11 2005, 10:56 AM 

Hi Dr Bill,

your 5 acts of worship (and the form they should take) and the 5 steps of salvation you speak of can not be found spelled out in the new testement anywhere in order. Don't you think that if these were so important to christianity and salvation in general that they would be spelled out in order, and with the proper form, much as is the old law was spelled out in the Torah? Also, these 5 acts of worship and steps to salvation as the church of Christ defines them were actually an invention of Walter Scott, a contemparary of Stone and Campbell.
Another thing to keep in mind, Christ never laid out the christian religion in as much detail as you folks like to preach. The form of modern christianity is basically Pauline in derivation, not Christ.

Lest anyone think i know nothing of the church of Christ, i have attended a cofC for 25 years!

 
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chuck sonn
(no login)
68.53.134.254

where does one get lead to Christ?

March 11 2005, 11:43 AM 

Bill,

Your title got me...I found it hard to believe anyone would even say it.

Nobody that I know comes to Christ by going to church. It didn't happen to me that way. I know many, however, that feel that being part of the right type of congregation is what one has to do to be saved. That's a lie.

"Christ states in John 6:44-45 (KJV): “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” People hear and learn of the Father directly through simple preaching of the Word, as stated in 1 Cor. 1:21 (KJV): “For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”" People get saved or added to His Kingdom when they come to Jesus...not go to church.

Can I ask you a personal question Bill? Do you feel qualified to share what Jesus has done for you outside of the church building? Is that your responsibility or not? I'm not judging you, just asking a question. Who is qualified to speak to the lost about Jesus, and where? I meet people all the time that came to Christ outside the church building. They attend there now on a regular basis to fellowship and worship with people of like experience.


" These include such elements as drama, skits, puppet shows, pop/rock music, praise teams, ensemble groups, instrumentalists, soloists, choirs, and other assorted performers, whose job is to “assist” worship by “leading the congregation into the presence of God.” To the Change Movement, these elements are essential to draw in the crowds. The New Testament, however, implies that they are useless." Can you show me where in the NT we are instructed how to worship, or worship being mentioned at all?

"These passages imply that if anyone is destined to come to Christ, he must first hear and learn of God from the preached Word. These passages further imply that it is God, and God alone, Who brings people to Christ, not that which gratifies the senses: not assorted eye and ear candy, not assorted entertainment media, not adrenaline highs, and not emotional chaos." Is it possible, Bill, for God to reach people through the different mediums you have mentioned? Can God draw them that way? We use puppet shows in the colonia in Mexico all the time. Hundreds each week come to a saving knowledge of Jesus. One of the main reasons we use puppets and drama there is because the people are illiterate.


"Christ went about simply preaching the Word. He taught through parables and accomplished His mission utilizing neither props, nor drama, nor praise teams, nor performers seeking the accolades of men. All who responded to Him did so after hearing the simple Word of God preached, not after jumping to their feet in thunderous applause to a praise team. Today, should we not follow Christ’s example of simplicity?" How much of Jesus' teaching that bore fruit happened in the organized assembly? How much happened out in the fields? Can you draw any correlation with this for today?

blessings
chuck



 
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Jimmy Joe
(no login)
12.41.112.201

You left something out Dr. Crump

March 11 2005, 3:10 PM 

Dr. Crump,
You stated in your last paragraph that Jesus went about simply preaching the word. I seem to remember quite a few miracles being preformed to provide proof of his divinity. If one actually raised someone from the dead, gave sight to the blind and made a cripple walk, then I believe the observers would definitely want to hear what was preached by the one who performed these deeds.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
63.84.81.47

False accusation, Ken

March 11 2005, 6:49 PM 

Excuse the butinsky, Kent, Dr. Crump can handle this light work but I have looked into ALL of the false accusations that ANTI-instrumental churches of Christ invented all heresies including bad breath.

Actually, there is no clear list needed: if people hear, believe, and confess then Peter tells them to REPENT and BE BAPTIZED in order for their sins to be forgiven and God to give them A new, holy spirit. It's like a road map: directions depend on WHERE you are when you ask.

However,this was grasped by men like John Calvin and Martin Luther when speaking of ADULTS who come to Christ just like Walter Scott said.

Furthermore, Romans 10 recycles through the process in a fairly straight line.

http://www.piney.com/Romans-Ten.html

The only missing element is BAPTISM. In its place we have "calling on the name of the Lord." However, this CALLING was in 1 Peter 3:21 REQUESTING a good conscience which is A holy spirit. The Holy Spirit whose name was Jesus of Nazareth informed Paul through the preacher to "be baptized, calling on the name of the Lord IN ORDER to wash away sins sins."

This CALLING is clearly what happens at baptism:

http://www.piney.com/BapCalling.html

The FIVE ACTS OF WORSHIP is another story!!!

Ken

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
207.69.48.152

Miracles, Yes; Drama and Praise Teams, No

March 11 2005, 7:04 PM 

Even though Christ utilized miracles to prove His divinity, along with the parables, He still accomplished His mission utilizing neither props, nor drama, nor praise teams, nor performers seeking the accolades of men. If you're trying to argue that, because Christ utilized miracles, then we should incorporate the accoutrements of drama, praise teams, and special performers in worship, the analogy doesn't even come close to being identical, for these latter are not authorized in Scripture. Nice try, though. Christ no longer needs to prove His divinity, for we have His very Word upon which we rely, and that should be sufficient.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
207.69.49.120

Modern Christianity Primarily Pauline, Not Christ? Is That So?

March 11 2005, 10:32 PM 

Kent stated that he has attended a Church of Christ for 25 years, yet he believes that "The form of modern Christianity is basically Pauline in derivation, not Christ." I guess those 25 years were wasted? I guess Kent was either asleep all that time, or his preacher was grossly incompetent in the pulpit, or Kent has confessed to being a heretic. I daresay Kent would have us believe that we don't need to heed the New Testament, because it allegedly comes from Paul, not Christ.

Kent's unfortunate statement, made either as a heretic or sadly in complete ignorance of the Scriptures, implies that Paul acted entirely on his own and set up New Testament Christianity with no authorization whatsoever from on high. Perhaps Kent would have us believe that Paul was a complete liar, when he stated in Gal. 1:11-12 (KJV): "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught (it), but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

How could Paul, a servant and an apostle of Christ, preach New Testament Christianity that was not authorized by Christ Himself through divine revelation? Are people so caught up in the Change Movement that they no longer believe in the absolute Truth of Scripture any more?

BTW, the New Testament has many concepts which are not necessarily laid out in a neat order for our convenience. That's why we must diligently read and diligently study the WHOLE WORD to get the BIG PICTURE.

I would encourage Kent to spend his time more wisely in reading and studying the Word and waste no precious time in vain attempts to debunk it.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
207.69.48.131

The Five Steps to Salvation Can Be Found in Scripture If You Look for Them

March 12 2005, 12:00 AM 

I must hand it to the change agents and similar heretics who post at this site. By contending for the faith against your heresies, I am made more biblically literate every day. Many thanks to all of you!

A contention has been made that the five steps to salvation cannot be found in order in the New Testament. Does that prove that they do not exist? Did God sign a contract that He would lay out His Word with every detail in precise order for our ease and convenience? Did it ever occur to anyone that God intended for us to read His ENTIRE WORD so that we miss nothing, for we cannot afford to overlook ANYTHING?

Representative verses presenting the five steps to salvation (all verses KJV):

1. Hearing the Word (John 6:45): "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

2. Believing the Word (Mark 16:16): "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

3. Repentance of sins (Acts 2:38): "...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." Also see Luke 13:3.

4. Confess that Jesus is Lord (Matt. 10:32): "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven."

5. Baptism for remission of sins (Acts 2:38 as above).

Certainly, salvation requires all of the above five steps, for the Scriptures command all of them. We must first hear the Word of God, for without it, we cannot believe. And next, logically, we must believe that Jesus is Lord and that we are sinners before we can repent of our sins, confess Jesus as Lord, and be baptized. Baptism is the final step, for without hearing, believing, repenting and confessing, baptism is made naught. Baptism is for remittance of sins, but unless there is first repentance for sins, baptism is made naught.

Those who wish to be argumentative complain that these five steps should have been laid out neatly in a list. Or others may decide to deny these steps, because they are not in a precise order. I remember when I took exams in medical school, some of the questions required analysis of material from several different sources. These questions required us students to recall large portions of course material in one mental flash. They did not necessarily focus on one small fact at a time. The New Testament is similar. To appreciate and understand the WHOLE GOSPEL, we must read and study the WHOLE GOSPEL; that is, the whole New Testament. By doing so, it readily becomes apparent that there are five steps which the New Testament requires for salvation. No specific passage of Scripture says, "Here is the law of exclusion," yet its principle is most evident when the Scriptures are diligently studied. Likewise, no passage of Scripture says, "Here are the five steps to salvation," yet it is clear that five steps are required when the Scriptures are diligently studied.

The Scriptures contain much material that is not conveniently laid out, but must be learned with diligent reading and study. God never promised that Christianity would be easy.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
63.84.81.20

Miracles

March 12 2005, 9:05 PM 

Those who BELIEVED believed because of the miracles: those who disbelieved did so IN SPITE of the miracles. Therefore, we should understand that Jesus often performed miracles because of compassion but FAITH comes by hearing the Word. The Miracles were to CONFIRM that Jesus was the Messiah just as later miracles were to confirm the apostles as commissioned and empowered Apostles of Christ.

http://www.piney.com/MiraclesElishaWidowsOil.html

Jesus about got Himself killed prematurely for denying the MINISTRY of miracles. See how Shelly is refuted by all of the evidence:

http://www.piney.com/WinShellyGodReveals.html

This will direct you to an ancient scholar defining heresies you may have watched:

http://www.piney.com/FathArnoHeres1.html

For us thee eternal principle is that FAITH COMES BY HEARING. It is ancient superstition that music and rituals have POWER to produce faith. We can always EXPLAIN AWAY any miracle they expect when they CALL FORTH the Holy Spirit "person" but you cannot explain away the WORD.

Ken

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
68.154.166.136

“THE DESIRE TO BE WHAT WE ARE NOT” (by John Waddey)

September 25 2005, 9:02 PM 


THE DESIRE TO BE WHAT WE ARE NOT



Michael Jackson, the Black Rock star, obviously wants to appear as White. He has gone to extremes to change his skin color, the appearance of his hair, his face has been radically altered to reach his goal.

Eminem is a young White man who badly wants to be a Black rap star. Many young White males wish to identify with the Gangsta Rap culture. They deafen themselves with the music, wear the clothing, speak the vile language, practice the same crude manners.

There are men who desperately wish to be female and women who wish to be male. They wear the clothing of the opposite sex, they learn to talk and walk like their opposites. They try to fill sexual roles their bodies were not made for. They close their eyes and stop their ears to the prohibitions God has given regarding such conduct (Lev. 18:22; Rom. 1:26-27).

There are Christians who preach for non-denominational churches of Christ who crave to be accepted as members of the denominational community. They speak of their "denomination," they attend denominational ministerial alliances, they participate in denominational services and crusades, they relish their degrees from denominational seminaries. They walk, talk and act like denominational preachers...they even preach like them.

We shake our head at Michael Jackson's bizarre conduct. We wonder about Eminem and his kind. We view the homosexuals and transvestites with disgust. How then shall we view those brethren who are ashamed of their faith, their identity with the church which Christ built and who gladly sell their souls in order to be what God did not intend for them to be? True, Jackson and Eminem have been successful in their quest for money and fame. The homosexuals have been very successful in their quest for acceptance and power. True, some of our change agents have been successful in the eyes of the world. But to purchase their fame they have forsaken the ways of Jehovah (Jer. 2:13). They have abandoned the old paths of New Testament Christianity for the ways of men (Jer. 6:16). Rather than applaud them we should reject them (II John 10-11). Rather than honor them we should pity them, for they have exchanged the true for the false, the genuine for the counterfeit, that which is eternal for that which is temporal and passing. Their conduct is as bizarre and disgusting as the others who like them are not content to be what God made them to be.


____________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: johnwaddey@aol.com

 
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JC_1335
(Login JC_1335)
172.129.233.52

seeking the old paths; the danger of change

September 27 2005, 12:51 AM 

the dangers of change:

My son, fear the LORD and the king; Do not associate with those who are given to change, For their calamity will rise suddenly, And who knows the ruin {that comes} from both of them? - Proverbs 24:21,22 nas.


O LORD, who may abide in Your tent? Who may dwell on Your holy hill? 2 He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness, And speaks truth in his heart. 3 He does not slander with his tongue, Nor does evil to his neighbor, Nor takes up a reproach against his friend; 4 In whose eyes a reprobate is despised, But who honors those who fear the LORD; He swears to his own hurt and does not change; 5 He does not put out his money at interest, Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things will never be shaken. - Psalm 15 nas.

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. - 2 Timothy 3:14,15 kjv.

wineskins.
new wine added to old wine = mixed wine

And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles. - Mark 2:22 kjv.

comparing:
Mark 2:22 is a Divine commentary on Proverbs 23:29ff.
Proverbs 23 paints a spiritual portrait of false gospels or change agents (new wine mixing with old):


Who hath woe?

who hath sorrow?

who hath contentions?

who hath babbling?

who hath wounds without cause?

who hath redness of eyes?

They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.

They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake?

I will seek it yet again.

Proverbs 23:29ff kjv.

 
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Li Chang
(no login)
209.247.222.92

Good Lesson

September 27 2005, 12:55 PM 

JC you write very good and truthful lesson!

Li wish that all could learn the Bible as well as you have learned it.

In the past decade it seems to Li that a wedge is being driven between the doctors of the law and the man in the pew. Doctors are saying that only they can interpret Scripture.

Doctors are teaching that prood-texting, i.e., proving a doctrine by the Scriptures is wrong. The doctors teach that the sitz im laben at the time the Scripture was written must be from which we get our interpretation.

We can see the influence that the doctors have had over interpretation with the women's issue, i.e., deaconess. The doctors did not learn about deaconess from Bible but from the first century culture. The doctors explain that deacon can be woman. It was evil culture, not Paul's writings, that forbade this position to women of first century.

Since you and I are not educated with the first century culture or the writers of that time we cannot interpret anything that the New Testament says. Only the doctors, those that are learned and have studied the first century culture, are qualified to interpret the Scriptures.

Isn't it strange how everyone who read and study Bible cannot understand until doctor tell us what Scriptures mean?

In christ,

Little change

 
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kent
(no login)
66.189.13.108

Re: Good Lesson

September 27 2005, 9:41 PM 

why is it you insist on making fun of asians?
You can make your point without using racists slurs.

and you call yourself a christian.
Donnie or whoever the moderator is, please stop this nonsense.

 
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JC
(Login JC_1335)
172.161.128.114

re: little change

September 27 2005, 11:16 PM 

little change:

keep reading your Bible, because as we know, that's where truth is, and share with others whom you percieve to be beloved brethren because as the Proverb (proverbs means: earthly stories with heavenly meanings) sure says:

Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. - Proverbs 27:17 kjv.

Also, I think when reading it is always good to ask ourselves, where does the LORD Jesus Christ stand out in these verses? He is there, He is the center of everything good, He is altogether lovely:

His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem. - Song of Solomon 5:16 kjv.

Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law. - Psalm 119:18 kjv.

glad you enjoyed the verses!

JC

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
70.146.150.31

Re: seeking the old paths; the danger of change

September 27 2005, 11:51 PM 

Jonathan,

You mentioned “wineskins.” That “new wine added to old wine = mixed wine.”

Would your elaborate on “wineskins”?

What do you think of “New Wineskins (The Believers’ Magazine)”?

Is this online magazine helping the cause of Christ or dividing the church?

Thanks!

Donnie

 
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JC
(Login JC_1335)
172.161.128.114

re: Donnie

September 28 2005, 1:17 AM 

Dear Donnie:

Let's go back and look at Proverbs 23, keeping in mind the word "proverb" means "parable" or an earthly story with a heavenly or spiritual meaning. Is Proverbs 23 speaking only about literally getting drunk? The proverb has a dual meaning. Alcohol does produce the effects mentioned in the proverb, but I feel the deeper spiritual meaning points to the effects of false gospels, and that all these things are likewise related to false gospels:

Who hath woe? (condemnation from God's word)
who hath sorrow? (the unsaved, they are in a gospel that is not bringing salvation according to God's Word)
who hath contentions? (the change agents contentions toward those who as Timothy's epistle proclaims:"But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. - 2 Timothy 3:14,15.")
who hath babbling? (babblers)
who hath wounds without cause? (self-inflicted wounds)
who hath redness of eyes? (spiritually drunk on false gospels)
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. (new wine clashing with the old)
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. (the appealing nature of many false gospels, ie. signs, wonders, disorder, music, dance, etc.)
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. (in the end it is satan who is serpent or adder from old)
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. (strange women = false gospels; this we know because the eternal true church is the BRIDE of Christ)
34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. (the sea spiritual portrait of hell, see Revelation 13:1 and Revelation 18:21ff.)
35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; (spiritually sick)
they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? (spiritually asleep)
I will seek it yet again. (the allure to return again and again to the new wine or false gospel, it is thoroughly addictive with no sign of repentance)

Now let's take a look wine in Revelation 6:

"And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. " - Revelation 6:5,6.

Wine here is from the Greek word "onios" and could signify either alcoholic or non-alcoholic fruit of the vine (grape juice).

"Aristotle, Pliiiy and Nicaiider speak of oiiios that does not intoxicate. Classical writings could be cited to show that the ancients tell of five ways of keeping grape juice from ferineiitation, aiid they called such preserved juice oinos" - Paul T. Butler, commentary on John."

Now in Revelation 6 we have a black horse and we know in the Bible that the color black is often used to paint a spiritual picture of darkness, sin and judgement.

Christ is the spirituaul bread of life (John 6) and a reference to bread being given by weight appears in Ezekiel 4: “Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, behold, I will break the staff of bread in Jerusalem: and they shall eat bread by weight, and with care; and they shall drink water by measure, and with astonishment: That they may want bread and water, and be astonied one with another, and consume away for their iniquity” (vv. 16,17). Wheat and barley are grains commonly used for bread making. Breaking the staff of bread so that people have to eat by measure or by weight is thus a picture of God having withdrawn His blessing so much so that the people consume, or waste away, as a result. They are judged “for their iniquity”, that is, because of their sins.

So, this rider on the black horse is a warning to the church that we cannot "fool around" in an assembly. If a congregation is not faithful to the Bible, God will bring about a spiritual famine so that it will end up with an acute scarcity of the true gospel.

The pair of balances that the rider holds warns that the behavior of the church is constantly being weighed by God. Back in Daniel 5, there is an account of the last Babylonian king Belshazzar seeing some mysterious writing on the wall. Interpreting it, Daniel told the king, “Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting” (v. 27). Shortly thereafter, God brought judgment upon him and his empire.

Now concerning the oil and WINE, this last phrase in this verse is comforting for the true believer, pictured by the oil and wine. In the Bible, the oil, points to the gospel applied to the hearts of the Christs people and anoints them as kings and priests of the kingdom of God.

Remember the parable of the good Samaritan? He poured oil and wine on the wounds of the man that had been beset upon by thieves and left half dead. Physically, one may say that the oil helps to soften the wounds, And that may be so. But spiritually, Christ is pointing to the nature of salvation. The half-dead man is a picture of the unsaved; he was healed by the gospel and the blood of Christ.

Thus, “see thou hurt not the oil and the wine” promises that even as we see churche after church go apostate, true believers themselves will not lose their salvation. Those whom God has saved will not be deceived by false gospels. We are continually cleansed by the blood of Christ.

In summary, when new wine (false gopels) is mixed with old (non-alcoholic) the symptoms of Proverbs 23 will be apparent: woe, sorrow, contentions, babbling, etc. Troubling indeed.

keep looking up!
JC

 
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Donnie Cruz
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70.149.144.65

"Essential Ingredients of Victory" (by John Waddey)

October 25 2005, 5:11 AM 


Dear Friend in Christ:

Please take a moment to read today's lesson and then forward it to other Christians in your email address book. Working together we can strengthen God's people and preserve the church of our Lord from further harm. Do not let a day pass without fervent prayers for the church of Christ. We are in a crisis that threatens our very existence as a Bible-based people. Every faithful child of God must do his or her part. This we owe to our Lord. John Waddey

_______________________________________


ESSENTIAL INGREDIENTS OF VICTORY



If the brotherhood of churches of Christ is to survive the attempted takeover by the promoters of change there are things that must be done. It is not enough just to oppose the false teachers, not even to defeat them and drive them out.

  • It will require more than stale, lifeless sermons that while true, are shallow, boring and irrelevant. People will leave such fare in search of food for their souls.

  • Congregations must rise above the lifeless, stagnant stage too many presently occupy. The church is depicted as the vibrant, living body of Christ. It is his kingdom whose mission is to bring every thought into captivity to Christ (II Cor. 11:5). People long to be part of a church that is doing something meaningful for Christ and humanity.

  • We must recover the evangelistic zeal God wants his church to have. Many congregations will eventually die out because of failure to recruit converts to fill their ranks depleted by death and desertion.

  • We must send out and support strong faithful missionaries who will take the Savior's message to the far reaches of the world. That is one of our primary reasons for existence (Mark 16:15).

  • Our worship must be meaningful and inspiring, challenging as well as scriptural. It must edify its participants and draw them closer to God and motivate them to go forth to serve. It must satisfy their spiritual hunger. Just as it is hard to get excited about viewing an old silent movie, it is hard to attract to and keep people active in a morgue-like church.

  • We must provide leadership, teaching and guidance for our young people, collegiates and young adults. They are the principle targets of the promoters of change. These youngsters and young adults need serious teaching that will indoctrinate them in sound doctrine, root and ground their faith and involve them in a meaningful way in the life and work of the church.

  • We must lead all our people to involvement in meaningful and productive Christian service. There are endless opportunities for Christians to serve God and man in daily life. Good people have an innate desire to be useful to others. Either we provide such opportunities or they will turn to civic and community clubs...or to those liberal churches who put such great premium of such activities.

  • We must preach the word of God (II Tim. 4:2), preach it in its completeness, preach it with power and conviction, with sincerity and without respect of persons. People who are spiritual malnourished are easy pickings for the promoters of change.

Too many conservatives are content to leave these vital areas to the liberal progressives and then spend their energies in condemning their errors and blaming them for leading their flocks astray. While change agents richly deserve the blame for their departures from the faith, many who pride themselves on their soundness have contributed to the problem before us by their neglect of these needed things.


_____________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: johnwaddey@aol.com

 
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Donnie Cruz
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72.150.118.230

“IS IT NOTHING TO YOU?” (by John Waddey)

January 16 2006, 1:26 PM 

-----Original Message-----
From: JOHNWADDEY@aol.com [JOHNWADDEY@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:28 AM
To: JOHNWADDEY@aol.com
Subject: A Lesson to Fortify Your Faith. John Waddey. Christianity: Then & Now


Dear Fellow Christian:

Please take a moment to read today's lesson and then pass it on to other brothers and sisters of your acquaintance. The challenges of the change movement are real. We are not tilting with windmills nor shadow boxing. If they have not yet done so, the promoters of change will one day be knocking at the doors of your congregation. Now is the time to block their efforts. Pray for the church of Christ, stand up for her defense. Be faithful unto death.

John Waddey

_____________________________________


    IS IT NOTHING TO YOU?


    As Jeremiah looked upon the ruins of his beloved Jerusalem, ravaged and destroyed by the victorious Babylonians, he cried out to his surviving neighbors, "Is it nothing to you, all ye that pass by?" (Lam. 1:12). Survivors were busy scavenging among the ruins and thinking of what they must do to recover their lost fortunes, but none seemed to express concerned for the devastated holy city and Jehovah's ruined temple. The prophet's heart was broken and he could not contain his emotions; thus his stinging words of rebuke.

    As we witness the brotherhood of churches of Christ being ravaged by false teachers promoting their agenda of change, the tragedy is compounded as multitudes of our brethren go about their daily business as though nothing at all was wrong. They show little or no interest in the problems besetting us, the damage being inflicted or the prospect of horrific losses. Others claim they are too busy to be bothered. Some declare that they are above such carnal tasks as opposing proponents of error. To defend God's truth or the kingdom would in some way defile them. Some are concerned for their own congregation, but show little or no interest in what is happening to others and exhibit no inclination to help protect the larger borders of the kingdom.

    I can't help but ask these brethren, "Is it nothing to you?" Do you not love the church? Are you not stirred to anger when you see her molested by her enemies? Do you not feel a surge of spiritual patriotism, courage and conviction that makes you want to protect her from those who would destroy her?

    Please take a minute and consider the following facts. The church of Christ is your spiritual family and home? Her teachers taught you the way of salvation. One of her members baptized you into Christ. In her fellowship you likely grew up and were nourished in the faith. In her Bible classes you learned your spiritual ABCs. In her fellowship your parents, grandparents may have worshipped before you were born. In her chapel, you might have been said your wedding vows. Perhaps in her assembly your children confessed Christ and were baptized. It may have been in her midst your parents’ funerals were conducted. If she is destroyed who will teach your children and grandchildren? Only her faithful members will be with Christ in eternity (I Cor. 15:24; Rev. 21:2-3).

    How can you stand mute and idle while her sacred precincts are being battered and broken down? Surely conscience and all that's right demand that you do what you can to help. When the Canaanites invaded Israel, Deborah and Barak led the troops in defense of the nation. But the people of Meroz refused to assist them in the conflict. God's response was, "Curse ye Meroz...because they came not to the help of Jehovah, to the help of Jehovah against the mighty" (Judg. 5:23). Let this not be your fate! By all means pray for the welfare and safety of the church, but also reach out and join hands with those who are standing in the gaps fending off the invading promoters of corrupting change (Ezek. 22:30). For suggestions on how you can help in the battle for the future of the church, please contact me.

    John Waddey


_____________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: johnwaddey@aol.com

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.217.162.217

Speaking of the Denominations...

January 21 2006, 3:49 PM 

THE RELIGION OF CHRIST IS NON-DENOMINATIONAL (by John Waddey)



For generations members of the church of Christ have heard their preachers proclaim that we are non-denominational. While there was a time when the average member of the church could explain what this claim meant, today this is not the case. Tragically, even a host of our younger preachers do not know nor can they explain the significance of our non-denominational stand.

The church of Christ was established by Jesus (Matt. 16:18). Denominations were created by men.

The church of Christ is in nature and essence a single, undivided body of people obedient to Christ alone (Matt. 28:18,20). Denominations are by nature separate and divided. They are different kinds of churches, each obedient to its human leadership.

The church of Christ has no creed nor standard save the teaching of Christ, found only in his New Testament (Matt. 28:20). Denominations give lip service to the teaching of Christ, but pay far greater attention to their creed and the standards of their organization.

The worship of the church of Christ is limited to those things authorized by Jesus. Denominations feel free to add to or take from their worship as changing times, culture and the will of the people demand. Thus their worship today can be quite different from that of their fathers or their brethren in another society or culture.

Denominationalists see no problem in fellowshiping other groups, since their faith is fluid and they hold that all variations of faith and worship are equally acceptable to God. Members of the Lord's church are limited in their fellowship to those who share their biblical faith. We can have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness (Eph. 5:11-12). Those who do not abide in the teaching of Christ we cannot treat as faithful brothers (II John 9-11).

The church of Christ has no denominational organizational machinery. Christ alone is head of the church (Eph.1:22). He ordained that each local congregation choose its own leaders (Tit. 1:5; Acts 14:26). He selected the twelve apostles and Paul and invested them with authority as the founding teachers and standard-bearers of his church (Luke 22:29-30). Denominations create additional governing bodies to control and regulate the affairs of their churches. They have a variety of differing governing models for their local churches. Churches of Christ have no conventions, synods or general assemblies to conduct their business or set their policies.

Denominations choose names to identify themselves and to distinguish them from other bodies. These names are rarely those approved by God and used by his inspired apostles and prophets. Christ's people are content to be simply Christians (Acts 11:26; I Pet. 4:16). And to identify themselves by approved names such as churches of Christ (Rom..16:16).

The faith and practice of the church of Christ is fixed and unchanging. Since it originated in heaven and was instituted by the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 16:12-14), disciples cannot change its form or nature. Denominations do not feel bound by that ancient standard, hence they do not hesitate to revise, even reject their most central beliefs and practices.

Denominationalists are comfortable injecting comedy, entertainment, story-telling, performance and other variants into their worship. Members of the Lord's church feel duty bound to carefully obey the commands of Christ (John 14:15). Their worship must therefore be in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). It must be decent and orderly (I Cor. 14:40). It must edify those who participate (I Cor. 14:26). Her ministers do not depend on excellency of speech or worldly wisdom; they preach Christ and him crucified (I Cor. 2:1-5).

Denominations, being the creations of mortal men, will receive from men their recognition and reward (Matt. 6: 2,16). The church of Christ is his spiritual body (Eph. 1:22); his kingdom (Col. 1:13); his family (I Tim. 3:15); his bride (Eph. 5:23). He will watch over, protect and provide for his church. When he returns, he will deliver up his kingdom (church) to his Father where she will spend eternity in heavenly bliss (I Cor. 15:24).

May we never forget and never cease to declare the fact that we are non-denominational Christians, nothing more nor less.

John Waddey


 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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