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Re: Speaking of the Denominations...

January 22 2006, 9:23 AM 

well by golly if waddey wrote it im sure it's true!

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Did you mean ... the Pope?

January 22 2006, 7:45 PM 

Please ... instead of "waddey" ... don't be ashamed to use Rick Warren's name or [better yet] your infallible God-on-earth, the Pope.

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(no login)


January 24 2006, 3:04 PM 

You can't replace "Waddey" with Rick Warren. In terms of the number of people they have led to Christ and the good they have done in building up the Kingdom, there is no comparison. They should not even be mentioned in the same conversation.

Waddey is a negative influence that is the root cause (people like him, not him specifically) of why so many are leaving the C of C for community-type churches. Christians are TIRED (with a capital T, I ,R, E, and D) of all the fighting, negative writing, name-calling and fear-mongering. That is not the purpose of the church or the Kingdom, and it's beginning to show.

Warren is a person who does not spend his time pointing fingers and picking apart other preachers and churches. All he does is introduce literally millions of people to the saving blood of Christ, and a better life because of it.

The Gospel DRAWS people to it. It's refreshing message of grace and unconditional love attracts non-Christians. The negative talk and fighting going on in C of C's across the country REPELS people. Do the math.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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RE: Careful

January 24 2006, 4:51 PM 

Sorry, but whatever the excuses you try to make for them, folks leave the Church of Christ because they are T-I-R-E-D of hearing the TRUTH of Scripture which convicts their lives. They can't begin to STAND in the light of biblical TRUTH, so they bail out. They want an "easy" religion, a fair-weather religion, a user-friendly religion, a religion of tolerance, a religion that will allow THEM to do and believe exactly as THEY want to, a religion where they don't have to deny themselves and take up their own cross. Deny themselves? That's a laugh! And that's exactly the kind of "religion" Warren gives them. After all, he started Saddleback Church on the basis of a neighborhood survey. It's all in the PDC book. People told him what THEY wanted to take place in church, so Warren built Saddleback primarily around PEOPLE'S PREFERENCES. Christ and the New Testament take a back seat. Oh, Christ is mentioned, but the PEOPLE RULE. WAKE UP! When you give people what THEY want, not what Christ wants, is it any surprise that folks flock to Saddleback and churches that mirror it?

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(no login)


January 24 2006, 6:07 PM 

Dr. Crump, for the first time since I have been posting on this site, you and I agree! I know SOME people leave because of the reasons you stated. However, let’s be honest. There are other reasons. I know it’s hard to admit, but the C of C (as well as every other denomination) has it’s share of ineffective leaders. By ineffective, I am covering a long list of adjectives. People visiting or even members of Churches of Christ have been abused, judged, lied to, embarrassed, and bored by these leaders for a long time. THAT is why many are leaving.

Certainly Americans in 2006 sometimes don’t want to hear the truth. They don’t want to be held accountable and all that. BUT- they don’t want to be bored either. I already know what you’re thinking, and again, I agree. To entertain for entertainment’s sake in the church is inappropriate. But, to take something like the gospel and bore people with your presentation of it is wrong. Jesus wasn’t boring, and I don’t think he wants us to be either.

Your thoughts on Saddleback are way off too. The point of Saddleback is to bring in people who wouldn’t otherwise step in a church, often times because of the things I just mentioned. THEN they teach them the truth, baptize (yes, are you shocked?) them and make them disciples. It’s effective and admirable.

You said, “When you give the people what THEY want instead of what Christ wants…….” who says it’s not the same thing? Just because people are looking for something specific in a church doesn’t mean Jesus hates it.

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Ken Sublett
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January 24 2006, 6:16 PM 

AMAZED: ecistemi (g1839) ex-is'-tay-mee; from 1537 and 2476; to put (stand) out of wits, i.e. astound, or (reflex.) become astounded, insane: - amaze, be (make) astonished, be beside self (selves), bewitch, wonder.

Bewitched, do YOU believe that if your little girl goes out in the highway and gets smashed by a drunk driver, that God MANIPULATED every part of the EVENT just to prove that HE is in charge?

Are you a HYPER-Calvinists taught by people who CANNOT and have never read John Calvin? Do you believe that you can READ the Word and get faith? You can with RICK'S stuff but GOD isn't competent.

Do you believe that God picked you at an infinite time in the past raised to an infinite power to go to heaven? How do you KNOW that you, who must be like a limp noodle not to mess with God, are PREDESTINATED to go to heaven instead of HELL? You know, the same God sends STRONG DELUSIONS using STRONG DELUDERS when someone tells God that He is a bald faced liar for using the term WHOSOEVER WILL. How do you know that YOU are not delusional.

Did, He on the contrary, decide to send your beloved child to HELL to burn for an eternity raised to an eternity power BECAUSE your wife enjoyed CONCEIVING her and YOU didn't get her to the clergy savior within 8 days? Hyper-Calvinists are a CULT and their POWER POINT is to suggest that you need THEIR "Gift finding seminar" to get confirmed that you are going to heaven and ALL members of the church of Christ "cult" are going to hell because they KNOW that your "god" was created by Augustine (mostly black African) from watching babies burn in the red hot arms of Molech in Carthage.

Because it is NON-SENSE and "amazing" YOU can't buy it but they KEEP you on the string to make you buy books.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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January 29 2006, 5:57 PM 

Change agents are clamoring for changes in the faith, worship and practice of churches of Christ. The changes they envision are profound and fundamental. Congregations that embrace them will no longer be churches patterned after the New Testament (Heb. 8:5). They would no longer be striving to be Christians only. They will not be churches of Christ such as Paul referred to (Rom. 16:16). Instead, they would be denominational bodies, adrift in a sea of human doctrines, traditions and opinions.

When we warn against the change movement, occasionally a well-intentioned brother will respond, "Since we all are imperfect, don't we need to change?" Such answers suggest that we need to specify just what it is that cannot be changed.

I. Some Changes Are Needed.
The heavenly side of the church is perfect and unchangeable. But the church on earth will always be imperfect because of its human membership. At our best, we are imperfect people. Our work of restoration is a task that is never-finished. When we fail to measure up to any aspect of the revealed faith, we need to change. The key is the direction in which we are moving. Beneficial changes are those that draw us into closer conformity with God's divine standard. When in any aspect of our worship, faith or practice we fail short of the divine pattern, we need to change! Only when we are observing "all things whatsoever (Christ) commanded" (Matt. 28:20), are we immune from change.

II. Some Changes Are Inconsequential.
Over the years our congregations have made a multitude of changes that were acceptable because they were in areas that were of no consequence. We changed from plain, simple meeting places on the back streets to fine buildings on main thoroughfares. We changed from hand-held fans to air conditioning. We changed from 60-minute sermons to 30-minute lessons. We changed from one cup to multiple cups for communion. We have changed our hymnals, our Bible School literature and a hundred other matters. Such changes are harmless because they have nothing to do with the essence of the religion of Christ. We still sing, pray, commune, give and study as the Bible directs, as we always did. These changes are the kind we can take or leave without transgression. Most of these changes are beneficial and should proceed without protest. The only reservation would be, if implementing them should be the occasion of strife in the family of God (I Cor. 8:9-13).

III. Some Changes Are Destructive And Forbidden.
If the changes proposed would cause us to go contrary to the expressed will of God, they are wrong and must be rejected and opposed.

To change the music of the church from singing, which the Holy Spirit has authorized (Eph. 5:19), to making a different kind of music with mechanical instruments is wrong.

To change the day we commune from the first day to another day of the week violates the example of the early Christians who communed on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7).

A change that would allow women to teach men in the assemblies or classes of the church would violate Paul's inspired restrictions on them (I Cor. 14:33-34 and I Tim. 2:11-12).

To change the message of salvation from faith and obedience to faith alone is wrong for it violates James' statement that faith without works in dead in itself (Jas. 2:26); also the declaration that Christ is the author of salvation to all who obey him (Heb. 5:9).

To alter the doctrine of God's grace and claim that He saves us by grace alone violates God's commands that sinners must obey him to receive the promised blessing. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mk. 16:16). The Holy Spirit is given to all them that "obey him" (Acts 5:32).

To change our view of Scripture is sinful. God describes it as a "pattern" for us to follow (II Tim. 1:13; Heb. 8:5). To teach men it is not a pattern is wicked arrogance.

To change people's thinking about the nature of the church is wrong. The church is Christ's body, his bride, his kingdom, his family. It is sacred, singular and unitary. To change it into a denomination is an evil thing. It is to make the sacred secular and profane. Other examples might be cited but these illustrate the point.

To beneficial changes that bring us into closer conformity to God's will, we say, Yes! To inconsequential changes we offer no objection! But to changes that lead Christians away from God, that make void the word of God (Matt. 15:9), we not only reject them, we must also object to them with all our strength! We are obligated to contend earnestly for the faith, once delivered (Jude 3). Simply stated, our position is Change? Yes! Apostasy? No!

John Waddey

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Waddey In The World Are you Talking About?

January 30 2006, 4:48 PM 

In another display of "scholarly" ineptitude, John Waddey really puts on display the C of C denomination’s ignorance of scripture. He says:
“To change the music of the church from singing, which the Holy Spirit has authorized (Eph. 5:19), to making a different kind of music with mechanical instruments is wrong.”
IF…. IF Ephesians 5:19 were even talking about a worship service (which it’s not), and IF it were talking about acapella vs. instrumental music (which it’s not) you may be on to something. However, you continue to embarrass the C of C tradition of acapella by lying about it’s “authorization” from the Holy Spirit.

But wait! There’s more-
“To change the day we commune from the first day to another day of the week violates the example of the early Christians who communed on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7).”
VIOLATES THE EXAMPLE? Are you kidding me? When did we throw out commandments and start following examples? But again, IF we were bound to follow examples, you can not seriously think that Acts 20:7 means that they ONLY met on the first day of the week for worship. Read the New Testament again.

I could go on, but this posting is getting long. I don’t want it to get “Sublett-ized”. You get the point. John Waddey’s writings appeal to ignorant people who are in love with their parent’s religion. It’s sad and shameful. I don’t doubt his passion, I just wish he would use it for the side of truth instead of perverting the scriptures.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Waddey In The World Are you Talking About?

January 30 2006, 6:34 PM 

Most of the preachers look for words like CHURCH and WORSHIP and cannot find much evidence.

However, the word EKKLESIA which is roughly the same as the Greek SYNAGOGUE was intended to continue with no interruption other than the Lord's Supper being observed. The Qahal which is the 'church in the wilderness' was held on some FIRST days and all Sabbath days. The word means REST and not a WORSHIP assembly which creates all of the discord.
    Heb.10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting ONE ANOTHER: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

    Episunagoge (g1997) ep-ee-soon-ag-o-gay'; from 1996; a complete collection; spec. a Chr. meeting (for worship): - assembling (gathering) together.

Paul defined the SYNAGOGUE function in Romans 15 which would SOLVE the discord problems of Romand 14 by NOT allowing private diversities to be the REALM OF DISCOURSE by the School of the Bible which is not a community or COMMUNE organization: it assembles itself; it disbands itself; and it does not exist as an ongoing institution.
    Rom15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

    Ro.15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to ADMONISH one another.

That is the identical message included earlier when they were to speak with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH and using THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN which brings comfort through the SCRIPTURES.

That has the same meaning as the so-called singing passages such as:
    Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; [The words of Christ John 6:63]

    Eph 5:19 Speaking to YOURSELVES in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

The singing AND melody in an arousal sense was outlawed and redefined as melody in the heart which is the same as GRACE in the heart. The people would understand that to mean 'pluck the heart strings' because pluckiing harp strings was a warfare word just as arousal singing is. The word melody was NOT a musical word but a warfare word: it still means a series of single tones in a row and the SPEAK in the ekklesia is defined as "in a whisper or conversational tone." Melody as tunefulness belongs to the 19th century according to the Britannica.

There simply was no "music" of any kind in the synagogue, Greek ekklesia or early churches. We know that singing as an ACT of worship was added in ad 373 and things made worse by singing secular songs rather than the SCRIPTURES which is what Paul commands.
    "Philo of Alexandria had already emphasized the ethical qualities of music, spurning the 'effeminate' art of his Gentile surroundings. Similarly, early synagogue song intentionally foregoes artistic perfection, renounces the playing of instruments, and attaches itself entirely to 'the word'--the TEXT of the Bible" (Encyclopedia Judaica, 1971 ed., "Music")
That was the DEFINITION of the holy convocation in the wilderness where the ALARM was outlawed. The word means 'playing instruments and making a joyful noise before the Lord." That was NOT worship but the warrior's panic song and the BLOWER had to be of the tribe of Levi.
    "They were taught the doctrines concerning God, creation, providence, sacred history, the fall, the incarnation, the resurrection, and future rewards and punishments. Their books were portions of the Bible...When the ecclesiastical spirit overcame the apostolic and Gospel teaching,

      he study of the Bible was
      largely displaced by ritual ceremonies and priestly confessionals.

    A few faithful continued to teach the Bible, as the Waldenses and the Lollards." (Shaff-Herzog Religious Ency. , Sunday schools, p. 159).

So, we ALL missed the boat and I don't expect many to grasp that music is harmful as "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals" which Jesus died to REMOVE. I was just watching a program on dreaming which takes place in the same area the musicators use. The dreams tend to get violent because the area which controls the rational movements is disabled. That is what happens when the panic music creates body movements such as clapping, swaying, swooning, premature labor and worse.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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February 4 2006, 3:53 PM 

Salvation is man's most pressing need. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory (Rom. 3:23). The just reward for our sin is death and damnation (Rom. 6:23). We dare not ask for justice. We desperately need mercy.

Experience teaches that man is incapable of saving himself from sin's ruin. If we expect to become righteous by our own achievement we are reminded, "there is none righteous, no, not one" (Rom. 3:10). If we attempt to earn salvation by good works of morality and religion, we learn that it is "not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves..." that man is saved (Tit. 3:5). Would we justify ourselves by an attempt to keep God's law perfectly, we will learn that "by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight..." (Rom. 3:20). Should we by human wisdom set out to find right-standing before God, we are told that "the world through its wisdom knew not God" (I Cor. 1:21). Without Christ, a sinner is alienated from God's people, a stranger to the covenants of promise, without God and without hope (Eph. 2:12). In this pitiful plight, we cry out, "Wretched man that I am ! Who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?" And the answer comes ringing across the ages, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 7:24-25a).

We Can Be Saved By Grace. The good news of the gospel can be summed up in the words of Paul to the Ephesians, "for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God..." (Eph. 2:8). Grace means a free and unmerited gift or favor. "The New Testament writers use "charis" preeminently of that kindness by which God bestows favor even upon the ill-deserving and grants to sinners pardon of their offences and bids them accept of eternal salvation through Christ" (J. H. Thayer, Greek Lexicon, p. 666). Grace is God's part in our salvation. Faith is our response to God's grace.

"God Is Love." God's grace springs from his loving nature (I John 4:8). The God of love sent his son to save us from punishment (John 3:16). When the grace of God appeared (i.e., Jesus) bringing salvation to all men, he instructed us as to God's will for our lives (Tit. 2:11-12). Through "the gospel of the grace of God," the inspired apostles made known to us the conditions of our forgiveness (Acts 20:24). By grace God gave us his holy church to see that each person has opportunity to be saved and to provide a proper environment for the saved on earth (Heb.12:28). The grace of our Lord has prepared for us an infallible record (the Bible) on which to base our faith and by which to order our lives. This "word of his able to build (us) up and give (us) the inheritance among all them that are sanctified" (Acts 20:32).

God's grace offers salvation to all people regardless of their race or record. The Lord is "not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (II Pet. 3:9). All earthlings can rejoice that "the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men" (Tit. 2:11).

Salvation By Grace Is Conditional. God saves us by grace, but we do not read of salvation by grace alone. Numerous teachers have erred at this vital point. Scripture makes it plain that God's offer of grace is conditioned on our faithful response to his will. Hear Paul: "For by grace have ye been saved through faith" (Eph. 2:8). If salvation were by grace alone, since grace is extended to all, literally all would be saved: even those who did not wish to be. Vile sinners and rebels would populate heaven along with God's faithful servants. Such universalism is untenable.

God has determined that we play a part in our salvation. Peter exhorted the men of Jerusalem to "save yourselves" (Acts 2:40). In the words of Paul, man's part is to have faith or to believe on the Lord (Eph. 2:8). We are "justified freely by his grace...through faith in his blood..." (Rom. 3:25).

What Is Saving Faith? A common mistake in the religious world is misunderstanding the Biblical meaning of faith. This does more than cause inconvenience; it can be fatal. We must look to God's word for the proper meaning. Saving faith comes from hearing the word of Christ (Rom. 10:17). Religious convictions based on human opinions, traditions and doctrines do not qualify. Biblical faith is living and obedient. Nothing avails " but faith working through love" (Gal. 5:6). Thus, Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all that obey him (Heb. 5:9). Salvation by grace is received by obedient faith! James labels "faith only" as dead and worthless (Jas. 2:24, 26). We see a Biblical demonstration of saving faith in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews. The author, by numerous examples, vividly portrays faith as a trusting heart gladly obeying God's will. Noah and his family were saved from destruction because he, "moved with godly fear, prepared an ark...and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith " (Heb. 11:7). The same kind of faith saves us today.

Obedient faith does not attempt to earn or merit salvation. It is evident that we cannot save ourselves. God paid the price and offers us salvation freely upon the condition that we believe in his son and obey his will. Some object that to do anything beyond mental acceptance is to attempt to earn our salvation. Should I offer to send you a coupon for a wonderful gift, free upon the condition that you send me a stamped, self-addressed envelope, surely you would not claim you earned or merited the favor you received. So it is in salvation. Through Christ, God offers free salvation to all who believe and are baptized (Mark 16:16). Those whose faith leads them to do so are saved (Acts 22:16). They in no way place God under obligation. They are simply claiming his gracious offer. This helps us understand Philippians 2:12 which says, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

We Are Not Saved By Works Done In Our Own Righteousness. Our salvation is not of ourselves, not of works, lest any one should boast (Eph. 2:8-9). In every age there have been folks who thought they could achieve salvation by their own efforts. Scripture presents two classic cases for our learning. The proud Pharisaic Jews sought to be justified by the works of the Law of Moses. While acknowledging their zeal for God, Paul wrote of them: "For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God" (Rom. 10:3). Sophisticated Gentile philosophers thought that they could attain salvation by human reason. The same apostle comments that they, "Professing themselves to be wise...became fools" and fell into gross idolatry, "wherefore God gave them up..." (Rom. 1:22-24). The greatest minds "in their wisdom knew not God." They became foolish in the attempt (I Cor. 1:20-21). Tragically, men are yet trying to save themselves with no better success. Every attempt of man to establish a new kind of church or to introduce a new doctrine or demand in religion is a vain attempt to do it "our way." Such is doomed to failure. Attempts of sinners to somehow mitigate their vices by great deeds of charity or benevolence have precisely the same internal flaw. Beneficial as these deeds may be to the recipients, they have no saving power. But, they can be fatal to the man trusting in them, for they may lull him into the vain hope that God will be obligated to treat him kindly. Thus he will fail to accept God's grace on the terms offered

The Ephesians Were Saved By Grace. Paul reminded the Ephesian Christians of their salvation by grace through faith (Eph. 2:4-8). If we do what they did, we too can enjoy the same blessing. They "heard the word of the truth, the gospel of (their) salvation, in whom, having also believed, (they ) were sealed ...with the Holy Spirit..." (Eph. 1:13). They were taught the necessity of repentance toward God (Acts 20:21). "And when they heard this they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus" (Acts 19:5). By doing as they did we too will be saved by grace through faith. We must be faithful unto death (Rev. 2:10) else we will have received his grace in vain (II Cor. 6:1). Be assured that "God is able to make all grace abound unto you; that ye, having always all sufficiency in everything, may abound unto every good work" (II Cor. 9:8).

It is the supreme discovery of life that we need not punish ourselves in a hopeless effort to earn God's forgiveness. It is freely offered to all. We must gladly accept his gift of love on the terms offered. A grateful heart will make the best effort to please him. No longer do we as criminals seek by our own strength to escape our chains, rather as faithful children we do our best to please our loving Father.

John Waddey

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Donnie Cruz
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February 4 2007, 8:54 PM 

-----Original Message-----
From: []
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 5:48 PM
Subject: Lessons to Fortify Your Faith - 2/3/07

Dear Readers:

Today's lesson looks back to ancient times and examines the actions of Jeroboam the rebel founder of Northern Israel. To secure his power he set about changing the worship of God's people. A strange similarity is evident between him and our modern change agents. I encourage you to duplicate and share this lesson with others. Forward it to other Christians in your email address book. We can and must stand up for Christ and his church.

— John Waddey



      When Jeroboam wrested ten of the tribes of Israel from Rehoboam he knew his situation was precarious. He lived in fear lest his citizens abandon him and renew their allegiance to David's dynasty. He viewed the temple of Jehovah in Jerusalem as a threat to his power (I Kings 12:26-27). If the people continued to go up to Jerusalem to worship, they would be tempted to return to Rehoboam. His days would soon be numbered.

      To keep control of his people, the rebel king took counsel with his political advisors (not God's priests or prophets) and came up with a scheme to neutralize the danger. He would build two golden calves to be placed, one in the north, the other in the south of his kingdom (I Kings 12:28). He then launched a massive propaganda campaign to persuade the people to do what God had forbidden them to do in his written word.

      • Jeroboam first decided that the sacred pattern set for in the Torah (Ex. 25:40), was too restrictive and was no longer workable in his cultural environment.

      • He set about to provide a more flexible and accommodating from of worship "which he had devised of his own heart" (I Kings. 12:33)

      • Even though Jehovah had chosen Jerusalem as the place for worship (Deut. 12:5), Jeroboam told them, "It is too hard for you to go all the way to Jerusalem to worship."

      • To him, only one place and one way of worship was too narrow and legalistic so he offered them a choice where they might worship.

      • Rather than deny or forbid their worship of Jehovah he simply provided them a plausible alternative.

      • He made substitute objects of worship to assist them in their devotions. He provided them two golden calves such as Aaron made for their ancestors (Ex. 32:4).

      • He persuaded them the use of his calves in worship was acceptable (Ex. 20:4), by telling them they had roots to ancient times and had blessed their fathers in days past (I Kings 12:28). He failed to mention the severe consequences that come with them!

      • To meet the changing circumstances of his kingdom, he revised the standards for priests and inducted men of tribes other than Levi (I Kings. 12:31; Deut.21:5).

      • He changed the day on which they would observe the Feast of Tabernacles from the 7th month to the 8th.

      • Jeroboam himself demonstrated to the people that they had nothing to fear in changing the rules of Jehovah's worship. He himself went up to the altar and burned incense in clear defiance of the old pattern set forth in the Law (12:33). To embrace such egregious sin, common folks must have an influential leader to rationalize, justify and encourage them to do so.

      • It meant nothing to him that his changes made the people sin (I Kings 12:30). The only thing that mattered was his security in his position and that his kingdom would suffer no harm. He was building for himself a dynasty. Nor was he concerned where his changes would lead. In just a few years the population of the northern kingdom were fully idolatrous. That brought upon them the wrath of God, destruction of their nation and captivity in Assyria.

      Fast forward some 3,000 years to another age, another place, another religion but the same kind of leaders. The place is America. The religion is Christianity. Rather than political rulers we have powerful, influential preachers. They aspire to build kingdoms for themselves. They call them mega-churches. To assure their success and to secure their position they are quite willing to change or even reject the pattern revealed in God's Word (II Tim. 1:13,) in order to attract and keep their followers. They also revise the history of the church and tell the people that their new ways are actually the old ways of the pioneers of the faith. They also set up idols of their own making, such things as instrumental music to accompany their singing, women to lead in their worship. Like Jeroboam, they rationalize their changes as necessary for the good of their cause. They are convinced they can burn incense on God's altar with impunity.

      God sent a faithful prophet to cry out against the altar, the mongrel priests and the king who was responsible for it all (I Kings 13:1-4). Jeroboam raged against him for daring to criticize his majestic aspirations. The maligned prophet was right, the vain king was wrong.

      Today, faithful men of God are crying out against golden calves, corrupt priests and rebellious leaders of this perversion of God's worship. Promoters of change are railing against them. Like the wicked king, they blush not to lay profane hands on the sacred things of Jehovah. Like him, they will receive their reward from the righteous Judge whom they are offending.

    John Waddey, Editor
    Christianity: Then and Now



To subscribe to our month journal, Christianity: Then & Now, send $6.00 to Church of Christ, c/o John Waddey, 12630 W. Foxfire Dr. Sun City West, AZ 85375.

Sacred Principles on Which We Stand is a collection of 52 lessons on the basic principles of New Testament Christianity. It is excellent for new converts. It is perfect for a bible class or study group.

Young preachers will find lessons they can preach in its pages. To order send $10 to the address above.

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Ken Sublett
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Hits okey! Jus bad attitudes!

February 4 2007, 9:53 PM 

Yes, John has done a great job of outlining the Old Testament so that preacher candidates could learn things they could never find in the once-Christian colleges turning our LIBERAL ARTISTS but not Disciples.

Yet, our leading lights as pseudo-conservatives in the ANTI-instrumental churches will hurt you real bad if you suggest that Amos was condemning anything but a bad mental attitude.

That is because they don't know how the data flows in the "computer" and so they put in garbage and get out garbage. [Like that dog which tried to lick a paper shreder]

The head of the LU bible department wrote a whole commentary on Isaiah and declares "There's nothing wrong with their worship." They just had ATTITUDES.
IF they had a good attitude THEN a man and his son could go in to the same temple prostitute.

Amos and Isaiah and a host of other passages ILLUSTRATE what Stephen got murdered for exposing to the priestlings: that God turned them over to worship the starry host (including saturn or 666) and burning children to Molech. Something like singing the children into Canaan land.

If God ABANDONED them to this idolatry then anyone who sucks up "proof texts" as authority for worship and REPEATS the Amos "patternism" it is BECAUSE they have repudiated the Word and God has sent them strong delusions so that they can pick up something from Amos and be totally irnorant of the timeline.

Pity, pity, but "Shall he find faith when he returns?" No, almost none.

Good list which has been hard to abstract for this reader.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

Click Here......The Book is Available Now FREE

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