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Kenneth Sublett
(no login)
63.84.81.67

Salvation

October 8 2004, 11:08 AM 

I don't see how anyone could make it any clearer or wrapped up so that one must INTEND to "reject the counsel of God" to reject it.

"Legalism" would try to find LOOPHOLES. That which MIGHT hinder the eunuch from being baptized was NOT believing that Jesus was the Christ the Son of God.

A Cornelius would glorify God as a confession in the "tongue" of the Jews and Peter said, in effect, that no one could REFUSE baptism to them. Peter was sent to tell him what he must do: what he did was to baptize Cornelius. God's election is God's invitation: one who "rejects the counsel of God by rejecting baptism" will be shut out of the wedding because they have no OIL for their LAMPS.

You have PREACHED THE GOSPEL and that preaching has only one possible response. A person who has not had their sins remitted is still a sinner. BELIEVING never remits sins.
    For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1 Pet 4:17

    And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 1Pe.4:18


Ken

 
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Dustin B.
(no login)
161.6.209.221

Salvation

October 11 2004, 2:47 AM 

Can one that is not "Saved" receive the holy spirit/ghost? Because when you have the Holy Ghost, you know for a fact of your salvation (as stated earlier in 1 John).

 
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Kenneth Sublett
(no login)
63.84.81.59

Holy Spirit

October 11 2004, 1:40 PM 

For most of church history there was never any concept that the "holy spirit" was a PERSON separated from the Godhead. Even trinitarians explain God as Father (thought), Son (Word) and Spirit (breath or the interchange of truth from the UNKNOWABLE Spirit world to us).

Jesus speaking as the SON or WORD set up a relationship with the FATHER. As God Incarnate the man Jesus contained FULL DEITY: He said that both the Father and Spirit were within Him. In John 6:63 He discounted the FLESH body and said "My WORDS are spirit and life."

As "Son" or word He spoke only what He heard from the Father within. He defined the clergy as sons of the Devil because "they speak on their own."

The concept of MEASURES of spirit I think means this as John wrote:

Jn 3:31 He that COMETH from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is ABOVE all

Jn 3:32 And what he hath SEEN and HEARD, that he TESTIFIETH; and no man receiveth his testimony.
    John 1: He was WITH God because He WAS God. He is Beginning and Ending but not two people. He is Alpha and Omega meaning that His Godhead is continuous even though vested in the body.

    When the Christ "laid aside" His majesty and glory HE personally came to dwell "in a body prepared for me." This is why the FATHER sent the SON or the THOUGHT OR MIND sent His Word.

    In Isaial 11 the SPIRIT which will rest on the BRANCH is like seven spirits or LIGHTS which rest on the candlestick as Menorah in the Holy Place. ALL of these "spirits" relate to forms of DIVINE KNOWLEDGE. That is why Jesus died to build a SCHOOL and not a pagan worship center.

    This is why Paul and others MINISTER THE SPIRIT by preaching. That body of Divine Intellegence is called SPIRIT just as the stuff or disposition of our MIND is SPIRIT but not a little person

    This was the heritage of the Campbell Restoration Movement derived from the RESTORATION MOVEMENT begun by John Calvin. Only in my lifetime has anyone dared to call God THREE PERSONS meaning three PEOPLE. There is no misreading of men like Rubel Shelly who sees this Family of Gods actually holding a conference
Jn 3:33 He that hath received his TESTIMONY hath set to his seal that God is true.
    And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev 19:10
The Invisible Deity is imaged forth as Father, Son and Spirit. This defines the transfer of information from Father to Son. That information is SPIRIT. "Son" means the "protector and promoter of the Father's Name."

Jn.3:34 For he whom God hath sent
speaketh the WORDS of God:
for God GIVETH NOT the SPIRIT by MEASURE unto him.


In Romans 15 Paul commands "that which is written" as the only way to glorify God. In Ephesians 5 it is SPIRIT and in Colossians the "singing" is the WORD OF CHRIST. Singing silly love songs to God has NO CONNECTION TO THE SPIRIT of God and in fact says "we are NOT OF God."

I don't know how to say it any clearer: the WORDS which the Son Spoke were the Words of the GOD. Therefore, these spirit words are exhaustive as far as we can know God through words:

Jn 3:35 The FATHER loveth the SON, and hath given ALL THINGS into his hand.

Jesus said that THE WORDS which He spoke will judge us. God WASHES us by WATER and the WORD. When we RECEIVE the Words of Christ as Spirit and Life we WILL NOT HESITATE to request baptism. That is the time and place where we REQUEST a good conscience or consiousness or A holy spirit. When our bodies are WASHED God sprinkles our HEART or SPIRIT with His own blood. I wonder if anti-baptismal people are not mortally afraid of the BLOOD of Christ?

Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

As Donnie has pointed out, the term BELIEVER or BELIEVETH is always retrospective. Of those baptized for the remission of sins it is said that THE BELIEVERS had all things in common.

Historical scholars have always been aware that what we substitute as MUSICAL SINGING was commanded by God through Paul to be SPEAKING the inspired Bible text. The purpose was not PLEASURING but of TEACHING and ADMONISHING one another. When the Jews lifted up their hands it was lifting up the WORD of God: when they READ it as Paul commands they were RECEIVING the Words of God because we are NOW IN the Son just as surely as if God was speaking to us. Jesus said he would be there when we "come learn of me." When people speak SERMONIC STUFF it is God making fun of the and sending them STRONG DELUSIONS because they tell God in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS: "I cannot receive that of Spirit to spirit or worship in the new PLACE of my own spirit in my own closet."

I cannot put into words the revulsion I have alway felt to some extent when I read SERMONS or think about SANGING by those who claim that THEIR words are more important than the Words of Christ which ARE Spirit and Life. I simply DO NOT GO THERE ANYMORE because the pain is beyond endurance. For the musical legalists THERE IS NO LAW OF GIVING so quit letting them FLEECE you and then "craunching your bones."

Here is one thing I did which shows that SPIRIT and MIND and HEART are identical. Paul equated the Holy Spirit to the Mind of Christ.

http://www.piney.com/HsMindSp.html

Sorry about the color but I thin this is the best way to hammer into heads that SPIRIT is never a person unless it is speaking of God Who is Holy or Wholly Spirit without body parts. The next is a series on Romans. The following is the one I have colorized to drive you as crazy as listening to a pompous sermon.

http://www.piney.com/HsRom6.html

This has to do with SEARCHING THE HEART. It will direct you to some other look at the Holy Spirit in Romans.

Ken

 
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Dustin B.
(no login)
161.6.209.221

Spirit

October 11 2004, 8:32 PM 

There is no separate entity, there is one God and he consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I know that the spirit isn't some sort of little guy that hops into your body. But what I was wondering was if the Holy Spirit can be received by those that are not Saved. Since then I've looked into it and here's what I've found:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

And if the Holy Spirit is in the Saved and not those that aren't Saved, then why did Peter baptize AFTER the Holy Ghost was received?

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

 
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Kenneth Sublett
(no login)
63.84.81.79

Spirit

October 12 2004, 12:25 PM 

Jesus discounted the flesh and said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and they are LIFE. The Words of Christ the Spirit simply will not "stick" or reside in A human spirit which is not HOLY or undefiled. In the Old Testament God promised to give US a NEW, HOLY SPIRIT and the purpose was so that we would keep His commands.
    "Again--Some will say, What does the expression Holy Spirit mean? Well, in scripture it stands first for God the Holy Spirit, and secondly for the holy mind or spirit of a believer-- for illustration, take Peter's words to Ananias, "Why has Satan tempted you to lie to the Holy Spirit; you have not lied to men, but to God," (the Holy Spirit.) And the Saviour says, How much more will your heavenly Father give A holy spirit (as it should be translated) to those that ask him. Again--Praying in A holy spirit. Again--Paul says he approved himself God's servant "by knowledge, by long sufferings, by kindness, by a holy spirit'" by a mind innocent of the love of gain, or commerce, or sensuality. Walter Scott

    "But an old Hubris tends to bring forth in evil men, sooner or later, at the fated hour of birth, a young Hubris and that irresistible, unconquerable, unholy spirit, Recklessness, and for the household black Curses, which resemble their parents. - John M. Allegro, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.

    Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the GIFT of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

The purpose for remission of sins is that God can WASH our HUMAN spirit so that it becomes A holy spirit. It is OUR spirits which hold the SINS and it is OUR spirit which needs to be purged to make IT holy:
    Hagios (g40) hag'-ee-os; from hagos , (an awful thing) [comp. 53, 2282]; sacred (phys. pure, mor. blameless or religious, cer. CONSECRATED): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint

    Hagnos (g53) hag-nos'; from the same as 40; prop. CLEAN, i.e. (fig.) innocent, modest, perfect: - chaste, clean, pure.

The same Paul wrote:
    Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for A clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21
The word "conscience" also means CONSIOUSNESS. Only by having OUR conscience MADE HOLY or cleared can we have A CLEAR CONSIOUSNESS of God and His Word. This word means A co-perception. You don't let God in until HE has swept out the 'demons.'
    Let us draw near with a TRUE HEART in full assurance of faith, having our HEARTS sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Heb.10:22

    And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and BY the Spirit of our God. 1Co.6:11

    Sanctified is:

    Hagiazo (g37) hag-ee-ad'-zo; from 40; to make holy, i.e. (cer.) purify or consecrate; (MENTALLY) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.

Now, take a look at First Corinthians and grasp that the word "spirit" is never capitalized for us and SPIRIT in both Hebrew and Greek speaks of either God Who is Holy or WHOLLY Spirit without body parts.
    But he that is joined unto the Lord is ONE SPIRIT. 1 Cor 6:17
That CANNOT mean that we are the SAME Spirit Being but that we have one MENTAL DISPOSITION which is what SPIRIT means unless it applies to God Who does not have a SEPARATED Spirit.
    Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against HIS OWN BODY 1 Cor 6:18

    What? know ye not that your body is the TEMPLE of the HOLY SPIRIT which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 Cor 6:19

    For ye are BOUGHT with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in YOUR SPIRIT, which are Gods. 1 Cor 6:20

THE holy spirit is YOUR SPIRIT which has been MADE holy only at the time and place of baptism.

One of the clearest opinions in scholarly history is that Paul NEVER speaks of the Holy Spirit as a "person" separated from the one God. Spirit is the spirit OF Christ where SPIRIT in both Hebrew and Greek speaks of the spirit OF or the mental disposition OF someone:
    And be renewed in the spirit OF your mind; Ep.4:23
Our spirit is our heart or OUR MIND. Spirit seaks of the MENTAL DISPOSITION of our MIND.
    Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in ONE spirit, with ONE MIND striving together for the faith of the gospel; Ph.1:27

    For God hath not given us the spirit OF fear; but of power, and of love, and of a SOUND MIND. 2Ti.1:7

ALL speaking in tongues was to VALIDATE the Apostles and not to SAVE an individual. "These signs SHALL FOLLOW THEM." Therefore, we never hear a MALE speaking in tongues outside of the presence of an apostle: Cornelius had been LIFTED UP by Peter. There is no example of any FEMALE speaking in tongues other than in Corinth and this was speaking DIALECTS or languages and Paul told them to stop it.

If one claims that THE HOLY SPIRIT literally lives in their carnal body then they claim that God would live in a polluted TEMPLE. It would also claim to be EQUAL to the Incarnation in Jesus Christ. And so many do.

http://www.piney.com/HsMindSp.html

Ken

 
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Dustin B.
(no login)
161.6.209.221

Well... I'm back, lol

October 24 2004, 12:25 AM 

I'm back! I didn't think I would be, but I have some things to lay down on the table or I'll feel like I didn't do my duty as a Christian.

Jesus discounted the flesh and said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and they are LIFE. The Words of Christ the Spirit simply will not "stick" or reside in A human spirit which is not HOLY or undefiled. In the Old Testament God promised to give US a NEW, HOLY SPIRIT and the purpose was so that we would keep His commands.

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


If a divine being cannot reside in Flesh, then the two above statements are stating that Jesus himself is not Divine since he said he will reside in us. He said he will reside in us through the Use of the Holy Spirit:

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.


The purpose for remission of sins is that God can WASH our HUMAN spirit so that it becomes A holy spirit. It is OUR spirits which hold the SINS and it is OUR spirit which needs to be purged to make IT holy:

Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

In all of these, Spirit and Holy Ghost are capitalized.

I would like to finish with a couple other verses:

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Spirit is Capitalized and it is "of God", not "of us".

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Notice that it states that it is a he not an it. It also says it has a will. Spirit is capitalized.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

The same spirit spoke of in Acts which reveals things to us is spoken of here, and it is referred to as "his Spirit" and also it is "the Spirit" that searcheth all things, the deep things of God. It is God's spirit, the Holy Spirit, not ours.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

It doesn't get any clearer there. THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN US. In our dirty temple.

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.


Lie to the Holy Ghost is a lie to God. Not to our spirit, not to us.

Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

There are three things we are to baptize people in the name of: The Father, the son, AND the Holy Spirit.

2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

Again, the Holy Spirit is mentioned. How can the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with us all if the "holy spirit" is only our own spirits cleansed?

Rom. 8:9, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." See also Gen. 1:2

The Spirit of God dwells in YOU. The Spirit is a divine spirit, not our own cleansed spirit.

Matt. 10:10, "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you."

The Spirit of the Father IN US.

Rom. 8:11, "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you."
John 6:63, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."
1 John 5:7, "And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth."


There ARE instances where we are told "spirit" and not "THE SPIRIT". Above, you have an example of both "spirit" and "THE SPIRIT".

Rom. 8:27, "and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."

The Holy Spirit is stated to having a mind. It is also referred to as "He".

1 Cor. 2:11, "For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God."

Here is mentioned both the spirit of man, our spirit, and the spirit of God. They are clearly two different entities.

Acts 2:4, "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."

It says THE Spirit, not their spirits.

However, make no mistake. There is only ONE God. He exists in three persons mentioned through the entirity of the holy scriptures. A good analagy I've heard used is Time. Time is made up of past, present and future but there are not three times, only one.




 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
68.19.238.78

The Holy Spirit “OF” God (In Response to Dustin’s Post: Oct. 24 2004, 12:25 AM)

October 26 2004, 2:48 AM 

Dustin,

Welcome back! LOL, too, except that I don’t know where to begin. The discussion of “the Spirit of the Lord” can go on endlessly.

To start with, if a divine being or something spiritual in nature resides in the flesh, why would you think of the “heart” or the “temple” in the literal sense? What do you think of Job 27:3—“All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils In regard to the “indwelling,” how do you account for the following residences “in the flesh”?
  • God dwells in the believer, His temple (2 Cor. 6:16; I John 4:12,13,15)
  • God’s holy spirit dwells in the believer (I John 4:12; Rom. 8:9,11; I Cor. 3:16; II Tim. 1:14)
  • Christ dwells in the heart of the believer (Eph. 3:17)
  • The spirit of Christ dwells in the believer (Rom. 8:9)
  • The truth dwells in the believer (2 John 1:2)
  • The spirit is truth (I John 5:6)—and the truth dwells in the believer (2 John 1:2)
  • The spirit of truth dwells in the believer (John 14:17)
  • The word of Christ dwells in the believer richly (Col. 3:16)
You quoted several passages from the book of John. That’s good. We all need to study what John says about the Spirit of truth, the Comforter. And more importantly, we need to study chapters 14-17 in context. So, I would like to ask you a favor so that we can discuss this portion of the Holy Scripture more thoroughly, perhaps, next time. One important question to consider is this—is the Comforter, the Spirit of truth, referring to Jesus Christ himself in his divine nature?

What does Jesus the truth (John 14:6) and the Spirit of truth (John 16:13) have in common as expressed in the following passages: (John 14:17-18; 16:16 and 22)? In I John 5:6, we read—“… it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
    John 14: [6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    John 16: [13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    John 14: [17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. [18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

    John 16: [16] A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

    John 16: [22] And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

Finally, in this discussion, I would like to respond to your references to the “person” [and more specifically the “gender”] of the Lord’s Spirit and the capitalization of the “Holy Spirit” or the “Holy Ghost.” There’s much to be said about the designation of gender [masculine or feminine] to a neuter form in the original NT Greek—perhaps, we can discuss that sometime later on. Meanwhile, do you realize that in comparison, there are MORE references to the word “it” or “which” or “whereby” than to the word “he” or “who” or “whom” or “by whom” in regard to the “holy Spirit OF the Lord”?

What is the “gender” of the holy Spirit of God? Let us examine the usage of the word “who” or “whom” versus “which” in the following passages from the KJV—these words [WHO, WHOM, WHICH] are capitalized in the following verses only for emphasis:
    John 14:26—“But the Comforter, WHICH is the Holy Ghost, WHOM the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

    Acts 5:32—“And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, WHOM God hath given to them that obey him.”

    John 7:39—“(But this spake he of the Spirit, WHICH they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

    Romans 5:5—“And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost WHICH is given unto us.”

    I Corinthians 2:12—“Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit WHICH is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.”

    I Corinthians 6:19—“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost WHICH is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”

    II Corinthians 11:4—“For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, WHICH ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.”

    Ephesians 1:13—“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [14] WHICH is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

    Ephesians 6:17—“And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, WHICH is the word of God”

    II Timothy 1:14—“That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost WHICH dwelleth in us.”

    I John 3:24—“And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit WHICH he hath given us.”

    Ephesians 4:30—“And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, WHEREBY ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

Let me take a break. Till next time.

Donnie

 
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Dustin B.
(no login)
161.6.41.143

Thank you

October 12 2004, 2:31 PM 

Well thank you all for not exploding on me when I asked, I've seen some heated debates in here and have read up on a lot of your opinions. Since I've done so, I can see many repetitions in the arguments presented and I can pretty much predict what will be said next, so I'll be leaving now. I really should have just read on instead of wasting space in here, and I apologize for that. I'm glad to see your congregation is so large, over 1,000! Wow, I've never been part of a congregation of more than 80. The regular church attendance in my church is about 40-50 on Sundays, and I consider that quite a bit!

I probably won't be coming back to this site, so e-mail me any comments if you see that it's prudent. I think from what I read that my ways are seen as a hell-bound way from your standpoint, but I can't hold it against you. I also cannot change my viewpoint because I don't worship for you or myself or anyone, for that matter, but I do it for God and I do what I read in the Bible. If I read that something has to be done, I do it. If his word says not to do something, I won't. Earlier I said I was interdenominational because I lacked a better term. The fact is, I believe denominations do not mean a thing. When we are facing Judgement, Christ isn't going to separate the Baptists from the Methodists from the Catholics so on and so forth, but we'll ALL be judged accordingly. Until that day, no one knows for sure who EXACTLY is going to hell. It's simply not our call. I doubt I could hold up against the Dr. Crump or Mr. Cruz in a debate/discussion about the subjects because I'm only 18 and I've been in Christ for only 5 years. I hope I've managed to discuss these matters calmly with you all and make my points well enough. I could have used some fancy HTML, but I just wanted to ask a few quick questions. Like the Brother above said, whether or not you believe I am going to heaven is moot. But I sure hope to see you guys when we all get there. Dr. Crump, Mr. Cruz and I will sit down and talk with Jesus about all a whole bunch of things. Wouldn't that be just awesome? I, myself, can't wait. Please e-mail me if you want to talk, I'd be glad to hear from you.

 
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John Waddey
(no login)
65.1.111.251

EXPLAIN GENERIC AND SPECIFIC AUTHORITY

February 7 2005, 3:28 AM 

EXPLAIN GENERIC AND SPECIFIC AUTHORITY


Bro. Waddey:

Could you please enlighten me on the term "generic Bible authority?" I have heard that term used before and I am not sure that I have a full understanding of what it means! Martin



Dear Bro. Martin:

The word generic derives from our word general. It is the opposite of specific. Thus, generic authority is general authority without specific details being given.

For example: Christ said, "Go preach the gospel" (Mk. 16:15). No instructions are given about how we are to go. So we conclude we are authorized to go by car or bus, plane or train, by foot or bicycle ... on the basis of this generic authority. But when Christ said preach "the gospel," that specifies what we are to preach. I have specific authority to preach the gospel of Christ and that excludes the doctrines and commandments of men, human philosophy, psychology, etc.

A specific command excludes all others. For example, Christ said "Go make disciples...baptizing them" (Matt. 28:19). The word baptize is a verb with specific meaning. It means to immerse. Thus this specific command necessarily excludes sprinkling, pouring, or any other type of actions.

The command to "work that which is good to all men" (Gal. 6:10) is generic or general. It sets forth an obligation without specifying any particular means for fulfilling it. Thus we are free to use many methods in ministering to our neighbors and yet do so by the generic authority Christ has given us.

These concepts are especially important when we come to the question of praising God. The Scripture says "speaking to one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord" (Eph. 5:19). Since there are three possible ways to make music: vocal music, instrumental music and a combination of the two kinds, when God specified one of them, it excludes the others. To sing is very specific, thus we are limited to that way of expressing our praise.

These points will be useful to you a thousand times as you study and seek a correct application of the words of the Savior. I hope this brief study has been helpful.

_____________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: johnwaddey@aol.com

 
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Donnie Cruz
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RE: Generic and Specific Authority—Explained Further

February 8 2005, 2:26 AM 

GENERIC AND SPECIFIC AUTHORITY



We can know God has prohibited a thing if he tells us in his word, "Thou shalt not do this." Thus we are told, thou shalt not steal, kill, commit adultery, etc. We can know a thing is forbidden if its opposite is required of us. If I am to love my neighbor as myself, then for me to despise my neighbor is automatically wrong. If a thing is condemned in some Bible example I can know it is wrong, even if I have no direct prohibition. For example, when David ordered Uriah put in a precarious position in the battle that he might die. Although there is no specific prohibition that spells out such conduct, the way God responded shows us his displeasure.

When God specifically tells us what he wants us to do, all other alternatives are thereby prohibited. For example when he said, "Go make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them..." (Matt. 28:19), that excludes making disciples by having them sign a contract or by having them make a financial commitment. The exclusive and only way to make disciples is to baptize them. Likewise when he said "baptize" them, that verb is very specific, it means immerse. Hence by authorizing immersion, he excluded sprinkling, pouring, etc.

God can and does give us general or generic commands that order us to do something without providing the details. When he does so we are left to our own discretion as to how we will implement that command. He said "Go make disciples" but he did not specify any mode of travel. Hence the command authorizes us to use any honest and honorable mode of travel in fulfilling that command. The things necessary to fulfilling a command we call expediencies. For example if we are to baptize we will need suitable clothing, and a suitable place. Thus a church is authorized to provide a baptistery, clothing and towels for baptisms.

We are commanded to sing and make melody with our hearts (Eph. 5:19). The command to sing is specific. Thus it excludes playing instruments. However, to sing together we need to have some way to see the words of the hymn. Hence the command authorizes us to provide a book for singing, a pitch pipe for the song leader and lights for the assembly.

All that we do must be by Christ's authority (Matt. 28:18, 20). That authority may be expressed in a specific command or in one that is generic. Rather than say, "He does not forbid this," the faithful disciple asks, "What did Christ tell us to do?" This distinguishes the faithful Christian from the worldly disciple who wants a religion that pleases him. This has been a marked distinction between churches of Christ and our religious neighbors.


_____________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: johnwaddey@aol.com

 
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David Hardin
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Re: RE: Generic and Specific Authority—Explained Further

February 8 2005, 3:31 PM 

“When God specifically tells us what he wants us to do, all other alternatives are thereby prohibited.”

There is no more specific commandments than those that lay out the worship at the temple. It is spelled out in great detail. Who, How, When, Where and more.

Jesus lived under the Old Testament law. Nothing else was authorized. If “When God specifically tells us what he wants us to do, all other alternatives are thereby prohibited.” Then did Jesus sin by taking part in the Synagogue worship?

Luke 4:20-22 (King James Version)
15And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
22And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

David Hardin

 
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Ken Sublett
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The old unlawful synagogue DODGE?

February 8 2005, 7:35 PM 

First, it is important to grasp that God DID NOT connect the sacrificial system to the people's "worship." This was a NATIONAL ritual common to all of the NATIONS whom Israel imitated by God's permissive will when they rejected His Word.

The word SABBATH simple means REST and it was not given as a day of WORSHIP in the sense of the Law of Moses. The Israelites at Mount Sinai rose up in musical idolatry and thereby POLLUTED God's Sabbath BEFORE the Law of Moses replaced The Book of the Covenant. POLLUTED is a musical word:
    Chalal (h2490) to wound, to dissolve... take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.
Using the same word, Lucifer was CAST OUT of heaven.

Rest means rest and does not speak of ceremonial worship. The REST was given on the Sabbath because the Babylonians and others truly WORSHIPPED In the Sabbath: the god's AGENTS rested while the people LABORED in food, drink, singing, musical instruments and prostitutes. God's REST reversed this: by outlawing travel God quarantined the people from the pagan WORSHIP SERVICES.

The First and Seventh days were to hold a HOLY CONVOCATION. This was not worship in our terms but means to READ or REHEARSE whatever they had to read or whatever a teacher could recite orally. This is the meaning of Paul when he commanded TEACHING the inspired text.

The Synagogue existed as the Qahal or church in the wilderness. This assembly of the common people was only for receiving instructions. This is why Numbers 10:7 OUTLAWS the ALARM or TRIUMPH which means to "play loud instruments and 'make a joyful noise before the Lord'" which was the Warrior's Panic "music."

Therefore, the commanded and common sense need to TEACH God's Word existed throughout history even though it was more institutionalized during the Captivity. The SYNAGOGUE as obedience to God's original intention was carried out by the Hassidim who became the Pharisees. This was in total opposition to the Temple sacrificial system which had been "added because of transgression" that being the musical idolatry of a trinity.

The music during sacrifices was called NOISE and was intended to remove ALL but the CIVIL-RELIGIOUS institution which was quite idential to that of surrounding nations. IF they 'woshipped' it means that they FELL on their faces OUTSIDE the gates to the "church yard" where the noise and slaughter took place.

Synagoge simply means an "appointed time." Therefore, how could think that an assembled time and place to READ (only and not preach) the Word of God would be in any connected to the Law of Moses?
    And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was,
      he went into the synagogue
      on the sabbath day,
    and stood up for to READ. Lu.4:16

Here is how you Preach and this is what Paul commanded TIMOTHY as a form of "worship":
    For Moses of OLD TIME hath in every city them
      that PREACH him,
      being READ
    in the synagogues every sabbath day. Ac.15:21

You will remember that Moses was in the wilderness. There are two documents called "songs." Moses RECITED the songs with the intention that they be LEARNED and taken back to the tribes. Miriam led the women OUT with singing, dancing and instruments. You remember that God slapped her with a dose of leprosy for claiming to be an INSPIRED prophet rather than a musical "prophesier."

The true FAST specificially OUTLAWED self-speak just as the Qahal or synagogue or church in the wildernes outlawed LOUD MUSIC. Pretty common sense, if you ask me, unless you INTEND to keep the Word from the people.
    If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him,
      not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own
      pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Isaiah 58:13
There is a lot of evidence that TEACHING the Word of God was AUTHORIZED at any time and place. If the command is to TEACH (why else would God give it?), and God gives lots of SPECIFICS: walking, siting, lying, there is no need for a DIRECT COMMAND to set a TIME and PLACE which is the only meaning of SYNAGOGUE.

Jesus never said: I will build my church. He said, I will build my EKKLESIA. Both ekklesia and synagogue are Greek words for an ASSEMBLY to hear evidence and reach a conclusion. Therefore, the Synagogue was ALWAYS an assembly to hear God's Word READ or RECITED with "allegorizing sermons outlawed by the Rabbi." There was NO MUSIC in the synagogue and NO extraneous tasks other than TEACHING the children which existed at the time of Jesus. WHY would he make a point of telling the Jews that they TAUGHT under the Law of Moses but needed a NEW COMMAND after Pentecost?

Ekklesia means both the CHURCH HOUSE and the ASSEMBLY. When Paul used words like GATHERED or ASSEMBLE he used a form of the Greek SYNAGOGUE. Therefore, the SYNAGOGUE was always the only RITUAL imposed by God by which we worship Him by Paul's almost-unique word TO GIVE HEED.

In James,
    For if there come unto your assembly [SYNAGOGUE]a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; James 2:2
We are fatally flawed and are paying the price because we REPUDIATE the PURPOSE for Christ to allow us to SYNAGOGUE to "come learn of Me." This provided the DAY OF REST from "ceremonial legalism."

The Christian assembly continued to meet in existing synagogue houses until they were kicked out. If Jesus commands us to TEACH then we can teach standing up, sitting down, walking in the way, upon our bed or even--heaven help us-in "church." However, we CANNOT obey the direct command and approved examples of the Eternal God to TEACH so that people can HEAR and LEARN "that which is written" by ADDING a "vocal band" making vulgar sounds and looking too, too cute. Some people rejecting the Commands and Examples idea taught by the Bible and all of church history before OUR TIME, charge to tell people that Jesus VIOLATED the Law of Moses and that gives us authority to VIOLATE commands because we are GRACE-CENTERED. Their GRACE is a brown-eyed Greek prostitute meaning CHARISMATIC.

Ken

 
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Donnie Cruz
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“Then did Jesus sin by taking part in the Synagogue worship?”

February 9 2005, 3:58 AM 

David,

I’m failing to understand your point in bringing up the Old Testament law or covenant and even in asking if Jesus sinned…. Since we know that Jesus our Savior lived a sinless, perfect life, perhaps, “Jesus … taking part in the Synagogue worship” is a bit misleading.

The passage you quoted begins with “he taught in their synagogues … he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day … to read.” If he took part in worship, whom did he worship? Or, did he take the opportunity to teach in the synagogue?

Still, how do we relate your comments to distinguishing the difference between generic and specific authority? Please explain.

Thanks!

Donnie

 
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David Hardin
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208.142.129.202

“Generic and Specific Authority” tested

February 9 2005, 12:11 PM 

Donnie,

The question does to the hart of the topic. “When God specifically tells us what he wants us to do, all other alternatives are thereby prohibited.” This quote is not in scripture. It is from a man. It should be tested. I have given an example of Jesus doing something in addition to what was specifically commanded.

Only Temple Worship is commanded in the Old Law. The principle of “Generic and Specific Authority” would have applied then as well. Jesus while living under that law, by participating in worship to God the Father in a Synagogue did other than what was specifically commanded. The word ”Synagogue” does not appear in the Old Law. Jesus was a regular at these meetings. Event reading and teaching at these “unauthorized” events. We know Jesus did not sin. So it stands to reason that the man made rule, (“When God specifically tells us what he wants us to do, all other alternatives are thereby prohibited.”) does not always apply. There is even a possibility of worshiping God in ways not specifically commanded without sin.

While the man made rules of “Generic and Specific Authority” are helpful in Biblical interpretation they are not God’s word. The Authority is in His Word. It is a trap to add to His word in an attempt to help people understand His word.

David Hardin

 
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Ken Sublett
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63.84.81.37

SYNAGOGUE at MOUNT SINAI!!

February 9 2005, 8:31 PM 

If ALL of the examples of the ASSEMBLY use commands and examples to MAKE IT CLEAR that the REVEALED Word is, as Paul demanded of the elders and the ONLY authorized pastor-teachers,
    to be "taught as it HAS BEEN taught"----

    Then we claim that WE have the right to INFER that the 100% evidence can be CHANGED to mean "SING to one another" and "Make melody on a harp" --especially, giggle, giggle, if it makes the old owners squirm!

    Then DENY others the right to INFER (a meaning inherent in SYNAGOGUE)

    Does that make us a Hypocrite which was the PERFORMANCE SECT of "Scribes, Pharisees and Hypocrites" meaning ACTORS?
It is only CHANGE AGENTS who have any need of INFERENCES because a DISCIPLE will look for even hints of God's will. However, a Greek word meaning SYLLOGISM is included in the meaning of to SYNAGOGUE. You CANNOT listen to any truth without INFERING something about it--unless the singy-clappy-twangy-clangys are ACTING UP. In many of the church history writings the idea of COMMANDS, EXAMPLES and even INFERENCES is used. We give ourselves the right to exercise AUTHORITY in these well-documented ways: why do we REFUSE these ways of "communicating" His will to God?

THEY are also the same GUILTY PARTY which use the LAW OF SILENCE when they whine: "But, God DID NOT say DON'T make music during CLASS TIME when Jesus is speaking through His Words." Bible believers who have accepted the sacrifice of Christ and been WASHED by Him can HEAR the Word in the Most Holy Place under the Mercy Seat and therefore can recognize DIRECT COMMANDS about "music" when we read them. When you are in the Most Holy Place you are sufficiently REMOVED from the musical Gentiles trampling the COURT where the "musical noise" was for animal sacrifices which WAS NOT for God Who already OWNED the cattle. How about this one:
    To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn. Is.8:20
      And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev 19:10
    Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

Well-uh! Jesus often uses Isaiah to warn about the musical prophesiers or "lord, lord sayers" and about those BLIND as a bat and DEAF as a stone. Therefore, it was STILL VALID that there was an APPROVED source of SPEAK OR TEACH. If the Devil CAUSES liars to SPEAK ON THEIR OWN--defining almost all songs and sermons--then WHAT OTHER SOURCE of speaking and teaching IS THERE? Shelly claims to be "working out his salvation" like the olden ones to get a NEW SET OF SCRIPTURES working in PARTNERSHIP with God: can you imagine an amoeba critter YOKED to God!

The Bible and ALL of church scholars--even early Catholic ones--demanded that ONLY the Word can be used for Faith and Practice. Therefore, only latter day "prophets" from Kansas City or Abilene actually BOAST about speaking ON THEIR OWN. The Synagogue Fallacy is probably their PRIME AUTHORITY.

Synagogue is a GREEK word and we might not expect to find it too often in the Old Testament which is not ALL OLD LAW. If you cannot find the SYNAGOGUE for the PEOPLE who were EXCLUDED from the Temple sacrifices for the nation then maybe you should look for words like ASSEMBLE or GATHER. Preachers have a hard time finding the command for the CHURCH to congregate when the word CHURCH does not appear in any texts. The INFERERS even claim that there is NO COMMAND for the church to assemble. But, Paul--as Peter warned --is HARD TO UNDERSTAND especially when he did not use CHURCH but ASSEMBLE and GATHER. isn't that truly SLICK hiding the truth in plain sight?
    They said in their hearts, Let us destroy them together: they have burned up all the synagogues of God in the land. Ps.74:8
Temple is SINGULAR: synagogue is PLURAL any place where you had those who KNEW the Word or had documents and those NEEDING to be instructed could be a set time and place to hold a HOLY CONVOCATION by reading or rehearsing. Paul said that the way to GLORIFY God would be to speak with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH "that which is written." Now, a Doctorate of the Law will surely "take away THAT key to knowledge."

One HEBREW is mowed which is EQUATED to Qahal depending on whether it is the ASSEMBLY or the ASSEMBLY:
    Mowed (h4150) mo-aw-daw'; from 3259; prop. an appointment, i. e. a fixed time or season; spec. a festival; conventionally a year; by implication, an assembly (as convened for a definite purpose); technically the congregation; by extension, the place of meeting; also a signal (as appointed beforehand): - appointed (sign, time), (place of, solemn) assembly, congregation, (set, solemn) feast, (appointed, due) season, solemn (-ity), synagogue, (set) time (appointed)
This word frequently appears of the two silver trumpets which is ALL God ever commandeed:
    And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. Nu.10:3
These instruments could be used to CALL ASSEMBLY but NOT make music. If you need a command for a BUZZER in church then this is it but don't PLAY the buzzer when Christ is speaking through His WORDS. Paul said that we ARE NOT assembled to the SOUND of the TRUMPET because that always meant fear and trembling:
    BUT when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an ALARM [meaning instruments and loud singing]. Num 10:7
Congregation here is:
    Qahal (h6951) kaw-hawl'; from 6950; assemblage (usually concr.): - assembly, company, congregation, multitude.

    Of the church #1577 ekklesia - assembly, called out ones, set apart ones, congregation; in Hebrew this word is #6951 qahal (kahal) - a "synagogue" (E. W. Bullinger, Commentary on Revelation, p. 165-166), an assemblage, congregation, company from the root #6950 qahal meaning specifically a coming together, an assembling, a convocation, congregation; this word is used mostly for religious purposes (see William Wilson's Old Testament Word Studies, p. 92)

There are MANY words which mean to assemble for some stated purpose: The Holy Convocation was to READ or REHEARSE. This was the "synagoguing" during the major festivals where animals were sacrificed on the other days of the week. On the first and seventh day the assembly was:
    Miqra (h4744) mik-raw'; from 7121; something called out, i. e. a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal: - assembly, calling, convocation, reading.
This NEVER CEASED in a prescribed meeting even in the wilderness even though they were apparently not observed. The same practice continued for the SABBATH which was for ekklesia or synagogue or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE and to hear prayers which were often Biblical passages.

This is used of the ASSEMBLY for reading the Word of God: AFTER the move back to the land, the MIQRA or holy convocation to READ or REHEARSE was practiced:
    So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading {miqra]. Ne.8:8
This distinct reading was cantillation often called "singing" but it was MUSICAL only in the sense that an articulate public speaker uses the normal inflections of the language and SPEAKS sing-song to keep the words from getting jumbled in the air.

The example I quoted above EQUATES the meaning of SYNAGOGUE [where Jesus went to READ but not to WORSHIP] to the SYNAGOGUES OF MOSES:
    And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to READ. Lu.4:16

    For Moses of old time hath in every city them that PREACH him, being READ in the synagogues every sabbath day. Ac.15:21

When God spoke at Mount Sinai it was the Book of the Covenant of Grace. The people were not able to ENDURE the simple statement of God's WORD so they IMPOSED moses between themselves and God's Word
    And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 2 Cor 3:13

    But their minds were BLINDED: for UNTIL this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the READING of the OLD TESTAMENT; which vail is done away in Christ. 2 Cor 3:14

The DID NOT hear the Old Testament read in the temple! Therefore, from Mount Sinai onward they HEARD but could not UNDERSTAND the Word of God,

Obviously, the SYNAGOGUE continued and MUSIC was outlawed until 1815 in a liberal, German synagogue which ALSO sowed discord and caused a legal dispute. The Restoration Stoneite wing was really IMITATING the lead of the Jews just as modern MUSIC TEAMS appeal to David and the SACRIFICING of innocent animals.
    But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 2Co.3:15

    Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 2 Cor 3:16

    Now the Lord IS THAT SPIRIT: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

The LAW was added because of TRANSGRESSION and not as a system of WORSHIP: worship was as in all of Paul's example GIVING HEED to the Words of God. Animal sacrifices was a FUTILE activity God permitted to see whether they could PAY FOR THEIR FORGIVENESS OF SINS by virtually stripping their livlihood and giving it to the KING where TITHING was one of the CURSES God promised the King would enact.

The King, kingdom and Temple were CIVIL and LIKE THE PAGAN nations because that was their prayer. Therefore, TRUE WORSHIP was falling on the FACE OUTSIDE of the gates which were closed on the "musical" signal. The singing, playing and sacrifices are SEPARATED from WORSHIP in Hezekiah's reform.

The God-despising and Word-despising Israelites DID NOT hear the Word BEGINNING at Mount Sinai and CONTINUING well past the time of CHRIST. The HEARING of the Word was NOT in the temple but ALWAYS in the synagogues defined by perhaps a dozen or more words all meaning an appointed time and place to MIRQA or REHEARSE or READ the Words of Qod.

The word EKKLESIA means the same as the SYNAGOGUE. The CHURCH in the wilderness is defined by Stephen's recorded speech as EKKLESIA. Therefore, the church in the Wilderness was the EKKLESIA or SYNAGOGUE.
    This is he, that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness ith the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: Ac.7:38
The ASSEMBLY at the foot of Mount Sinai was the ekklesia or synagogue or CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS. Because the LAW was "because of transgression" and ONLY to cleanse the FLESH, the TRUE worship which DID NOT CHANGE ever, never, was to GIVE HEED to God by giving heed to His Word. Because there is no COMMAND or INFERENCE that God as the Spirit of Christ OUTLAWED the synagogue then we can probably INFER that Jesus the Christ of God was NOT doing something which gives the Anti-christs the authority to ADD "whut seemeth good in our own eyes."
    Ekklesia (g1577) ek-klay-see'-ah; from a comp. of 1537 and a der. of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concr.) a popular meeting, espec. a religious congregation (Jewish SYNAGOGUE, or Chr. community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
The LORD or SPIRIT at Mount Sinai was THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST (1 Pe 1:11, Rev 19:10). He was the ANGEL, the Rock, the Water, the Manna, the Pillar. Therefore, the FIRST rejection of Christ the Holy Spirit was refusing to let Him be the Teacher in this FIRST SYNAGOUGE. This FATAL SIN was focused on the ELDERS and not 3 million people. God REMOVED he MASSES from the sacrificial system by identifying them as STRANGERS so that they could never go INTO the tabernacle court or any Holy precincts where the HORRORS of animal sacrifices took place. This WAS also the "trampling of the courts" because it was a LIKE THE NATIONS punishment and not an "approved patternism." Jesus DENIED that the clergy Jews were the children of promise even though He agreed that they were the children of Abraham. He spoke in PARABLES specificially to keep them OUT OF the gospel system (Matt 13). Any where there is an ACTOR acting out WORSHIP for others for a CUT of the sacrifice you know that their DESCENDANTS are still in total control.

If it was REMOTELY true what MOST of the ANTI-instrumental types falsely PREACH AND PREACH AND PREACH that there was NO COMMAND for the Synagogue in the Old Testament (which is not ALL the Law of Moses) it is still a fact that GOD WAS IN CHRIST reconciling us to Him. THAT would not give any of these anti-Christs the authority to make their OWN CHANGES to the "LAW." The Christian church, so-called HIGH CHURCH authority to GO WITH THE FLOW was NEVER approved in spirit or letter by any church council. And there is almost NO pre 19th century theologian who would not SPEW THEM OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS.

However, it is FALSE PROPHSYING to claim the SYNAGOGUE as the most popular examples of Christ VIOLATING the Law and therefore giving THEM the right to go and do likewise.

Because the synagogue, ekklesia or church in the wilderness existed at least at Mount Sinai and was practiced throughout the Old Testament and more organized in Babylon and NEVER OUTLAWED I am gonna INFER that Jesus did not ADD. Therefore, since the TOTAL FOUNDATION of the CHANGLINGS is based on this FALSE PREMISE I am going to INFER that they have been playing God by adding things like PROFESSIONAL CLERGY and MUSICIANS which ANYONE can prove was universally condemned throughout the Bible and all of church history until the Stonites STUMBLED on the word PSALLO as late as the year 1878 AFTER they had already became the LEGALISTIC SECTARIANS. Ok?

The so-called church is really the Ekklesia or Synagogue of Christ. Jesus approved the concept but not the hypocracy (acting prayers and sermons), there was NEVER any praise service in the synagogue nor in the ASSEMBLY or Synagogue of Paul's writings. Even if Jesus had approved an ADDED thingy called the synagogue He would have by AFFIRMATION utterly condemned the "praise services" added by the AUTHORITY of the synagogue. See the tangled tale they weave?

Ken


 
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Mark Waggoner
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Re: “Generic and Specific Authority” tested

February 10 2005, 9:28 AM 

From the previous post... '“When God specifically tells us what he wants us to do, all other alternatives are thereby prohibited.” This quote is not in scripture. It is from a man. It should be tested.'; I must agree. We must test everything against God's word and while this quote is not found in scripture, the principle it conveys certainly is.

Leviticus 10:1-2 - "And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took each of them his censer, and put fire therein, and laid incense thereon, and offered strange fire before Jehovah, which he had not commanded them. And there came forth fire from before Jehovah, and devoured them, and they died before Jehovah." Note the language that closes verse 1 - "which he had not commanded them." In plain English, they practiced something that God hadn't told them to do - they added to God's command. They didn't violate a "thou shalt not". Doesn't this convey the thought that all alternatives/additions to God's specific commands are prohibited?

I Corinthians 4:6 - "Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other." This is probably as close as one will come to finding a direct quote concerning prohibiting that which is not specifically authorized. Notice the reason Paul gives for this command - "that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other." Simply put, if one does "progress" or "go beyond" what God has authorized, they become arrogant. Isn't this very point being illustrated by the "elitists" today?

Jesus has "all authority" (Matthew 28:18). We have limited authority, only that which He has delegated to us. Delegation must be specific; otherwise, there will be chaos. We practice this principle every day of our lives. A wise man once said that if God's word must specifically prohibit a doctrine or practice, then there would be no end to what would be authorized. While the terminology of "generic" and "specific" authority may not be explicity found in scripture, we do find many examples of how authority is to be practiced and those examples convey a binding principle.

Mark Waggoner

 
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David Hardin
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208.142.129.202

Re: “Generic and Specific Authority” tested

February 11 2005, 10:34 AM 

Mark and Donnie,

Please deal with the example I brought up. I am truly trying to learn here! All our teachings(“When God specifically tells us what he wants us to do, all other alternatives are thereby prohibited.”) should stand the test of scripture. Where is the authority for Synagogue worship? It does not appear in the old law as the Jews of Jesus’ day were practicing it. He took part in those assemblies. He regularly attended. He taught and read. These are not even in question. It seems to be a truly unauthorized assembly. It was not what was specifically commanded. In Synagogue worship they sang, prayed, read scripture and there was a lesion. At some time the must have given money to support the synagogue. This sounds like a worship service. But it was not authorized. The way they worshiped was not authorized. They did not follow the authorized way, time, date, form or place.

If “When God specifically tells us what he wants us to do, all other alternatives are thereby prohibited.” Why did Jesus not cry out against this unauthorized assembly?

Love,
David Hardin

 
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Ken Sublett
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63.84.81.31

Re: “Generic and Specific Authority” tested

February 11 2005, 3:38 PM 

David, I will not be put off by your refusing to listen to that which CANNOT BE REFUTED and trying to STEER the response. I am hard of hearing and have no pride about being ignored because I can SENSE that you are in trouble because the LAST GASP of trying to become more powerful than Christ (as they claim) is to try to implicate Jesus with either VIOLATING the LAW of Moses or giving a PATTERNISM which says that WE TOO are so Spirit filled that WE can also ADD new things. This literal LUST is so overwhelming that people will INVENT this to try to prove to the WIDOWS that God INTENDED for them to wear a SADDLE.
    David Hardin Where is the authority for Synagogue worship? It does not appear in the old law as the Jews of Jesus' day were practicing it. He took part in those assemblies. He regularly attended. He taught and read. These are not even in question. It seems to be a truly unauthorized assembly. It was not what was specifically commanded. In Synagogue worship they sang, prayed, read scripture and there was a lesion. At some time the must have given money to support the synagogue. This sounds like a worship service. But it was not authorized. The way they worshiped was not authorized. They did not follow the authorized way, time, date, form or place.
David, wake up! I just told you that the SYNAGOGUE WAS COMMANDED directly. Furthermore, it is INFERRED in the command to teach. Thirdly, there are dozens of EXAMPLES defining the role as to READ or REHEARSE. They DID NOT preach in the synagogue and the Rabbi outlawed "allegorizing" or applicating. They DID NOT sing as you use the word: the word commanded by Paul was to SPEAK or READ "that which is written." Their song was not your song service. They were commanded to look out for their poor and who needs a COMMANDED time and place to give the money?

The TEMPLE SERVICE, I repeat, was NOT worship in an approved sense: this was ADDED because of the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai and the demand for a king and kingdom by the elders. This was clearly by God's PERMISSIVE will because the kings would lead the nation into captivity and death. The ONLY worship word was to fall on your face. The people could not ENTER the holy precincts so how could they engage in WORSHIP. The synagogue was worship because giving heed or holding God's thoughts in the mind IS the meaning of worship.

It is clear that as a LEADERSHIP most did not HEAR Moses at any time or any place. God did not promise a NEW WORSHIP SCHEME of rituals but that they would HEAR messiah. The sinful woman at the well was smart enough to catch on to THAT ONE: she said, "when Messiah comes He will TELL us all things." Jesus told her a NEW truth which was ALREADY in effect and had always been in effect: True worship was in the NEW PLACE of the human spirit and the PROFESSIONAL God handlers CANNOT help.

If I haven't missed something, the EXAMPLE of Jesus was to go out PREACHING but TEACHING in the synagogue. He rejected the stand-up PERFORMANCE prayers and told people to pray in their CLOSETS which meant in private and in their own SPIRIT. Set prayers were normally READ SCRIPTURE. He authorized ALMS (ONLY) and personally paid the temple tax. Paul agreed in both direct command and examples. Then, He said that the LEFT HAND (you) know what the RIGHT HAND (me) does with my ALMS. We are to LAY BY IN STORE so that we have money to give ALMS. He preached OUTSIDE of the synagogue. So, there goes preaching, giving and praying. That leaves LISTENING to the Word of God and PERSONAL prayers. Paul confirmed that our money is OUR MONEY and if we want to build a house to get in out of the rain then we DON'T NEED a direct command.
    And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont [legal or traditional place] to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. Acts 16:13

    Sunerchomai isa synagogue word meaning: (to convene, associate, assemble, come together.

God promised that in contending for the faith in the time of Jesus:
    For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto OBSERVERS of times, and unto DIVINERS: but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do. Deut 18:14
I pointed out that God's plan for the sabbath or REST was to quarantine the people from the Observers of Times, Diviners and Soothsayers and Wizards. An OBSERVER is the word ANAN who was a preacher person or a sanger person who could ENCHANT (i.e. CHANT) a soothsayer, sorcerer or magician. God through Isaiah and Ezekiel defines many of the prophets "who stole enchantments from one another) as PROFESSIONAL The priests were LOCKED DOWN in Jerusalem and in the temple. The PEOPLE were locked down in their own homes or to the house where SYNAGOGUE was held in every city.
    The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; Deut 18:15
Hearken means to call together to "hear intelligently" often implying obedience. Remember the Samaritan woman: "He will TELL us all things." Well, when God in Christ TELLS us something we LISTEN or HEARKEN. We do not have a command, example, inference or early scholarly record that this meant WORSHIP in the sense of performing rituals NOT RELATED to teaching the Word where the SINGING passages clearly DEMAND "that which is written, the Spirit or the Word of Christ."
    According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the DAY of the ASSEMBLY,
We have proven to you that this assembly or QAHAL is the same as MOWED or synagogue which Stephen defined as the Ekklesia at Mount Sinai.

Stephen called that an EKKLESIA. Therefore, the ekklesia is the same as the Qahal. God CALLED this synagogue so please don't keep claiming that Jesus TOOK LIBERTIES which now belong to you.

Therefore, the FIRST assembly of the synagogue was to HEARKEN to the Words of Christ the Spirit.
    saying, Let me not HEAR again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. Deut 18:16
      And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. Deut 18:17
The SECULAR TEMPLE was given BECAUSE the elders refused to hear the Word of God through the Judges and Samuel who was also a prophet. We showed you 2 Cor 3 to prove that the Jews who depended on the Law as opposed to their own personal faithful obedience were struck dumb and blind and that continued UNTIL they might turn to Christ. Therefore, the Monarchy was a period of REPUDIATING the Word and engaging in Babylonian, Egyptian or Canaanite Baalism--right there in the temple.
    I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put MY words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Deut 18:18
      And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. Deut 18:19
I am VERY TROUBLED by anyone not WANTING to worship God by GIVING HEED to His Words. The DIRECT COMMAND is that all who are acceptable WILL do so. Those who REFUSE to hearken or THINK that their words are SUPERIOR or more UP TO DAY have the promise stretching from the Wilderness to NOW that "I will REQUIRE it of Him."

It is fruitless to try to TRAP Jesus into violating the Law of Moses or by TAKING AUTHORITY which He did not have.

Now, the meaning of WORSHIP and the mark of a DISCIPLE is that when God speaks they listen. They do not have any LUST to add something exciting: this was the FATAL, TERMINAL sin at Mount Sinai and it involved the Musical idolatry of a trinity.
    BUT the prophet, which shall PRESUME to speak a word in my name,
      which I have NOT commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. Deut 18:20
Jesus honored the Law of Silence. The term "Son" is defined as the faithful WORDS of the "Father." Jesus identified a son of the Devil as a liar because "he speaks on his own."
    For I have NOT spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. Jn.12:49

    And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. Jn.12:50
      It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

    Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends;
      for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Jn.15:15
If the revelation of Jesus even to the prophets (1 Pet 1:11; Rev 19:10) is not AN APPROVED EXAMPLE to speak only what has been revealed then a different Jesus is being spoken. Jesus identified the Devil as a SON of his father because "he speaks on his own."

Rejecting the Word is like a TOGGLE switch: when you push the truth away from you God PULLS it all the way and you will never get it back. (Heb 6 and ALL of the "musical" examples."
    For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Matt 13:12

    Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. Matt 13:13

That means that if you ever had any truth and love for the truth and reject it then God simply withdraws His Gracious Spirit from our spirit and TRUTH simply has no holy personal spirit to dwell in. That is spooky when you grasp that ALMOST ALL so-called Christians paid and paid and paid last Sunday to hear some person who has CAST out God's Spirit and are too lazy to get "work so that they have to GIVE" as opposed ot get, get, get. It is like welfare societies: the more you subsidize the MORE you get. As LONG as fools pay to be fooled don't think that anyone who would STEAL your happy church life is going to give it up: NO ONE ever gives up power voluntarily. Don't EVER expect the inmates of Jonestown or Waco to catch on.

Frankly, I am more troubled with all of the PROFESSIONALS who have kicked the traces and are out there teaching preachers to be Prophets, Chanellers and Facilitators. And the UNLAWFUL synagogue as school of the Bible is about the best they can do. Using Paul's example, it is a fact that fools love to be fooled.

If the meaning of CHURCH is really ekklesia, synagogue or school of the Bible then by definition we can take the word of Jesus to "come learn of Me" as opposed to The Purpose Driven Life If Paul's assembly or gathering words are forms of SYNAGOGUE, and the activity labeled 'singing' means speaking THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN then we can gather in a house or under a tree. However, you CANNOT get any authority to REPLACE the Word of Christ as Spirit and Life with sentimental, erotic praise songs without REFUSING to hearken to God in Christ. If instead of reading and explaining the Word of God you preach 'rhetorical simple Simon philosophy' you REFUSE to hearken to the Word of God "as it has been taught." That means that GOD WILL REQUIRE IT OF YOU.

Whatever LIBERTY we have it is NEVER the clergy's liberty to IMPOSE some silly new MUSICAL WORSHIP trafficked as the power to LEAD YOU INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD. "Let him take himself off to himself or he will hear from God."

Ken

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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207.69.49.143

RE: Generic and Specific Authority Tested (Mark Waggoner)

February 11 2005, 11:19 AM 

The discussion centers around what has been termed the Law of Exclusion, or more recently, the Law of Silence. While such a term is not mentioned specifically in the New Testament, as Mark said, the principle certainly is. We should remember that, for anything to be scriptural, it must meet at least one of three criteria:

1. It must be directly commanded by God or Christ.

2. It must be by apostolic example.

3. It must be by necessary inference from Scripture.

The Law of Silence fits the third criteria, for the Scriptures contain a number of examples. Mark mentioned some above. Other specific examples include the exclusion of musical instruments in worship by the phrase "sing and make melody in the heart" (Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16) and the exclusion of anything other than bread and fruit of the vine as emblems of the Lord's Supper. (For a detailed discussion of music, see the thread "Boswell-Hardeman Discussion on Instrumental Music in the Worship" at Sunday School in Exile.) A generic example is found in the Great Commission when Jesus said "Go." By that, we have the liberty to use whatever means of transportation are at our disposal, because He did not specify by what means we are to "Go."

Unfortunately, the Change Movement repudiates the Law of Silence as heresy, because it does not meet their man-contrived criteria of "liberty in Christ." Paul uses the term in Gal. 5:1, which the Change Movement takes out of context to mean, "We have 'liberty' to incorporate into worship whatever pleasing and entertaining innovations we wish." Paul's use of "liberty in Christ" in Gal. 5:1 applies only to freedom from the shackles and rituals of the Law of Moses; a close examination of the remaining verses of Gal. 5 bears this out. Nowhere does Paul give license to incorporate man's fancies into worship. Also remember that the Christian has the "liberty" either to worship God exactly as He directs in the New Testament, or he has the "liberty" to rebel against God. When it comes to worshiping Him, God leaves nothing to man's carnal fancies.

 
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Eddie
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68.52.194.217

Re: RE: Generic and Specific Authority Tested (Mark Waggoner)

February 11 2005, 3:04 PM 

Dr, Crump, Ken, and Donnie,

I don't see an answer to David's direct question. I am also interested in your answer.

Eddie

 
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