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ken Sublett
(no login)

Re: Re: “Generic and Specific Authority” tested (David Hardin)

February 15 2005, 1:38 PM 

    David Hardin Does it test true?
    Temple worship was specifically commanded.

Again, David, you are correct: the only PROBLEM is that you are mixed up on the chronology. The fact is that the SYNAGOGUE was commanded and MODELLED by God at Mount Sinai as part of Stephen's CHURCH (ekklesia, synagogue) in the wilderness. There was no command for SACRIFICES until the people SACRIFICED to the Egyptian trinity MUSICALLY. As a result God gave THE BOOK OF THE LAW but not a word about a TEMPLE. When israel's elders FIRED God and demanded a human king (preacher to rule) God PERMITTED the temple as a CONCESSION to David. This became the CIVIL SEAT of a secular monarchy identical to all other monarchies with their KING'S temple.

There is NO scholar who denies that the temple--at a Jebusite High Place--was given for ADDITIONAL sacrifices after David sinned and was afraid of God and could not return to Gibeon which was STILL the place Solomon sought God. The temple then became the SEAT of animal sacrifices as a CURSE and therefore Jerusalem was another SODOM. Here is one example and there is NO contradiction in the Bible or scholarly history: even the Jews admit it AFTER they lost it.
    Editor's Note 7: dia gar touto epishmainetai. The meaning is: Stephen was accused of speaking against "the customs,"-sacrifices, temple, feasts, etc. Therefore he significantly points to that critical conjuncture. from which these "customs" date their introduction: namely, the Provocation at Horeb.

      Prior to that, he tells of "living oracles," life-giving precepts:

      after it, and as its consequence, sacrifices, etc.,

      those statutes which were not good, and ordinances by which a man shall not live, as God says by Ezekiel.

    Not a word of sacrifice till then: and the first mention is, of the sacrifices offered to the calf. In like manner, "they rejoiced," "the people ate and drank, and rose up to play:" and in consequence of this, the feasts were prescribed: kai eufrainonto, fhsin: dia touto kai eortai.-'Epishmainetai might be rendered, "he marks," "puts a MARK upon it"
    (so the innovator, who substitutes, touto kai Dauid epishmainomenoj legei): we take it passively, "there is a mark set over it-it is emphatically denoted." In the active, the verb taken intransitively means

      "to betoken or announce itself," "make its first appearance."-

    In the Treatise adv. Judaeos, iv. §6. tom. i. 624. C. St. Chrysostom gives this account of the legal sacrifices: "To what purpose unto Me is the multitude of your sacrifices? etc. (Isaiah i., 11, ff.)
      Do ye hear how it is most plainly declared, that God did not from the first require these at your hands?

      Had He required them, He would have obliged those famous saints who were before the Law to observe this practice.

      `Then wherefore has He permitted it now?
        In condescension to your infirmity. As a physician in his treatment of a delirious patient, etc.:

        thus did God likewise. For seeing them so frantic in their lust for sacrifices, that they were ready, unless they got them, to desert to idols:

        nay not only ready, but that they had already deserted, thereupon He permitted sacrifices. And that this is the reason, is clear from the order of events.

      After the feast which they made to the demons, then it was that He permitted sacrifices: all but saying: `Ye are mad, and will needs sacrifice: well then, at any rate sacrifice to Me. 0'"-(What follows may serve to illustrate the brief remark a little further on, Kai h aixmalwsia kathgoria thj kakiaj.)

        "But even this, He did not permit to continue to the end, but by a most wise method, withdrew them from it ...

    For He did not permit it to be done in any place of the whole world,
      but in Jerusalem only. Anon, when for a short time
      they had sacrificed, he destroyed the city.

    Had He openly said, Desist, they, such was their insane passion for sacrificing, would not readily have complied. But now perforce, the place being taken away, He secretly withdrew them from their frenzy." So here: "Even the CAPTIVITY IMPEACHES the wickedness (which was the cause of the permission of sacrifice.")

We can throw you chapter after chapter after chapter God say that he DID NOT COMMAND sacrifices when they came out of EGYPT. Voluntary sacrifices were always practiced but God said: Now IF you sacrifice you MUST do it on an EARTHEN place of burning. But IF you want to make an alter you MUST not use CARVED STONES and you MUST not have steps going up. The temple violated ALL of these because it was a LIKE THE NATION'S TEMPLE added BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSION and God's turning them over to worship the STARRY HOST: that is why David did not listen to a PROPHET but Gad was the KING'S SEER which means A STAR GAZER.
    Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched. Jeremiah 7:20

    Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel;

    Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. Jeremiah 7:21

It is a fact that MUSICAL IDOLATERS use the LAW OF SILENCE because DISCIPLES know that music AS worship was alaways connected with ignoring the Word of God. What they do is use THE LAW OF TOTAL CONTEMPT for God who--with all of His power--simply did not CONCEIVE of an evil people who could INVENT slaughtering innocent animals believing that to FILL THEIR BELLYS meant that God was appeased and well fed.

Pseudo "conservative preachers" keep trying to SELL the notion that God wanted people to worship Him by slaughtering innocent animals. And even Amos' condemnation of instrumental sacrifices with a father and son using the same temple whore was OK: they just had a bad mental attitude. However, they blaspheme by saying that God CHANGED HIS MIND and REJECTED temple worship. You cannot dig any deeper into trying to RESCUE the sacrificial system and MUSIC by refusing to confess that this was a LEGALISTIC PATTERNISM of people being led into captivity and death BECAUSE the "because of transgression" was BECAUSE of musical idoltry. This was a TERMINAL SIN and God, according to Stephen and some of the prophets, TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST. That is why God used Gad the STARGAZER to tell David how to build a LIKE THE NATIONS' temple. By the way, we get the word GOD from GAD who was the tribe hostile to God and the GOD OF FORTUNE.
    David Hardin Synagogue worship was not commanded but was practiced even by Jesus.
    Therefore Synagogue worship was not wrong even though it was other than what was specifically commanded.
    We know Jesus did not sin.

For the word ASSEMBLE there are 42 separate Greek words: about half of these are SUN or SYNAGOGUE related. The word GATHER has 152 separate Greek words. Then you have the word EKKLESIA meaning CALLED OUT, come together, and on and on.

Now, not A SINGLE one of these words is remotely related to the word CHURCH which is derived from Circe or Kirke the "holy whore" of John's revelation. Does THAT mean that God in Christ did not COMMAND the church to "come learn of me" if we call it the CALLED OUT?

We have pointed out that the DIRECT COMMAND of God that they ASSEMBLE nationally and within their own walls to TEACH the Word after they ASSEMBLED the peole. There are many Hebrew words which mean to ASSEMBLE: if they assemble to TEACH as God SYNAGOGUED the people at Mount Sinai to TEACH then it is a SYNAGOGUE. We still call CHURCHES CHURCHES when we know that they DON'T assemble to teach the Word as it has been taught.
    David Hardin Likewise, Silence of the scripture here is not a law authoritative.
Well, lost soul, Mom never made a LAW OF SILENCE about lots of things. However, when she discussed the universal EVILS of drinking alcohol, anytime I ever tried it I HEARD her loud and clear even from the grave. That is call RESPECT and only a LEGALISTS needs for God to say "Thou shalt not burn animals, play with temple whores or play instruments" when you ASSEMBLE. Maybe, there IS such a law for those WITH EARS:
    For I spake NOT unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt,
    concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jeremiah 7:22

    But this thing commanded I them, saying,
    Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people:
    and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you,
    that it may be well unto you. Jeremiah 7:23

    But they HEARKENED NOT, nor inclined their ear,
    but walked in the counsels and in the IMAGINATION of their evil heart,
    and went backward, and not forward. Jeremiah 7:24

    And they have built the high places of Tophet,
    which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom,
    to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire;
    which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. Jeremiah 7:31

I told you that Stephen spoke of the EKKLESIA or synagogue or church in the wilderness where God called an assembly of the people. Because they WOULD NOT harken to "synagoguing" with God as their Teacher, God TURNED THEM over to worship the Astrial dieties:
    This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us : Acts 7:38

    to whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt Acts 7:39

Church is ekklesia which defines a calling out, meetig, Jewish synagogue or Christian community.

This HIGH PLACE was Tophet at the High Place of the Jebusites: Tophet was once the King's Music Grove. It was named after the TAMBOURINE and defines the place we call HELL where the kings, their harps and harpists go to burn and ROT on a bed of maggots.

I might tell you that God DID NOT command the assembly for PRAYER: people could pray any time or place, in groups or all alone. However, you had to assemble to COME LEARN OF ME as Jesus more invited than commanded. The prayer, like the fermented wine for Passover, was a part of the ORGANIZED synagogue which came out of Babylon. Jesus TAUGHT in the synagogue and invited US to come meet Him in the closet or Most Holy Place made into A holy spirit at baptism. That is the HUMAN SPIRIT which PUTS TO SILENCE the singy-clappy, sangy-twanging, whiney-pineys who HALLUCINATE that IN THE SPIRIT means like nine-dollar bill (inflation, you know).


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Donald Carter
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Good Times

February 18 2005, 8:51 PM 

Greetings Brethen
I obeyed the gospel a couple of months ago,and was added to the Martinsville Church of Christ,here in Martinsville,Va.
I can only say to all who wish to listen, to hold fast your sound doctrine,and continue in the "Word".
My prayers are with you.
Donald Carter

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Good Times (Donald Carter)

February 21 2005, 5:47 AM 


We rejoice in the great news that you are now a member of the Lord’s body. We appreciate your prayers and your admonition to “hold fast … sound doctrine….” That’s exactly our message here at CM. Certain congregations have already been subverted and acquired—thanks to the despondent, irresponsible and uncaring elders. And there are congregations under siege or being taken over right now—I am witnessing one before my eyes.

We take seriously the apostle’s warning—“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth…” (2 Tim. 4:3-4). Qualified elders are supposed to be “… holding fast the faithful word…” (Titus 1:9). And to speak “the things which become sound doctrine…” (Titus 2:1).


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John Rebman
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Biblical Illiterate Men In The Pulpit.

February 20 2005, 9:49 AM 

I am a frequent visitor to your message board and enjoy reading the many comments or would not return. I travel this great country that we live in and have visited many churches of Christ in the South and North. I would like to respond to Mr. Meador's comment: "error and weakness are the cause of division."

I will get straight to my point. We have men in our pulpits who could no more exegesis Peter's sermon at Pentecost than they could fly a lunar space ship. Yes, they can recite Acts 2:38 frontward and backward, but most, could not begin to explain the question: "What does this mean?" asked by those "devout men out of every nation" who had heard "a sound," and seen the "cloven tongues as like of fire and it set upon each of them."

Mr. Meador, as "director of Southwest School of Bible Study" I am sure you can exegess John 20:21-23 and correlate the Lord's words with Acts 1:1-2. As a Director of a school of Bible Study you must ask yourself: would my students be able to express their mind in an intellectual, rational dialogue on this manifestation of the Holy Spirit? I have asked many of our young and older brothers who fill the pulpit in various towns and city's this question. You want to hear an assortment of answers? Punch "Duh."

Ask our preachers about the baptism "with the Holy Spirit and with fire" that John prophesied (Matthew 3:10-12 and when this phenomenom took place), and you would think that you were on stage with Jimmy Swaggart. Ask your young man in the pulpit by expository preaching, exeggis John 2:1-11. Why the Lord's "first miracle" at Cana of Galilee? Do they believe this could be a Messianic prophesy recorded in Psalms 69? if not why not? Inquiring minds in the pews would like to know!
My list could go on and on, but by now you have caught my drift.

Who is going to emulate the teaching of our young men, or elder, in the pulpit? Why of course, the brothers and sisters who fill the pews! They, in turn will teach their children and friends. As you know, this is the command of the Lord. Christianity is taught, not caught. This gets me back to your statement: "error and weakness are the cause of division."

In my opinion, the churches of Christ in the "South and North" are so caught up in what is going on over at the instrumental churches that we are becoming "Biblically illiterate" in the pew. We have become "week," because many of our disciples think as Simon of Samaria and become as Demas.
Thank you for the opportunity to respond.
John Rebman

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Ken Sublett
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Illiterat men

February 20 2005, 9:12 PM 

I am not a preacher and have not exegeted (a word associated with musica or magica) or "further expounded" outlawed by "private interpretation."

However, if you grasp that Spirit and Breath in both Hebrew and Greek speaks of the wind or mental dispositon or the mind of a Being or person, then when Jesus is said to have BREATHED on the apostles it is easy to "take a right turn" and see that He did this by teaching just as Paul MINISTERED the Spirit by preaching.

I have addressed this in more than a dozen papers on the internet but I cannot prove to you that any preacher in my 74 years has ever read, thought or preached in a "straight row" long enough to get from John to Acts. That is why they increasingly believe that the Spirit is a junior member of the tribe of gods.

So, we probably agree on that but I have been active in the church for 62 of my 74 years and I can't remember ANY sermon in the last 30 years other than to condemn US for preaching against instruments. I think that you will find that the ANTI music DEFENSE has been mounted ONLY BECAUSE the instrumentalists think that POSTMODERN gives them the right to lie, cheat and steal peacable churches of Christ to turn them into "theaters for holy entertainment." I know of NO real push which has NOT been associated with aggressive movements such as ACU bonding at the hip with the Disciples with the plan to train "prophets, chanellers and facilitators" to deliberately force a shot-gun wedding with the Christian church which has ALWAYS been a Stoneite movement not really related to the churches of Christ.

As far as I know, all of those MOTIVATED to vocally teach their views -over and over and over- have had their churches TURNED into a circus, have had their "investment" stolen (better have giving a thousand bucks to a tele-evangelist and got 5,000 back) and typically up to ONE HALF of the old peacable church driven out into the COLD while the women and children ACT UP and even yearn for the oldsters to leave or die

I believe that you will also find that any literate OUTING of those who lie through sermons or papers are NOT preachers but LAY people who can refuse to be COWARDS without losing their jobs.

Furthermore, once you quit being a RELIGIONISTS and become a disciple--which means quit letting preachers beat your knees with a baseball bat to keep down the cheap seats--you find that you CAN walk and chew gum at the same time. You can utterly repudiate the SOLE INVENTION of latter day churches of Christ that God is a FAMILY or standing COMMITTEE of three SEPARATED "persons" because--logically--God needs FRIENDS and a FAMILY or He would not be perfect. At the same time you can repudiate MUSIC as their mind control weapon.

Well, I think that you need to EXEGETE these passages and EXPOSE yourself to having a cross nailed on your back so others can respond properly. However, I would dare suggest that ANY preacher who has POSTED has probably been posted by OTHERS and will not join the debate--and I can understand why. I would enjoy your discussion.

Ken Sublett

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Biblical Illiterate Men In The Pulpit (John Rebman)

February 21 2005, 5:55 AM 


I think you have covered all the bases for biblical illiteracy in the pew—unqualified elders, seminary-trained preachers, inept Bible class teachers. One of the qualifications for office of an elder, besides being blameless, husband of one wife, etc., is one “holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine … to exhort” (Titus 1:9) and is “apt to teach” (I Tim. 3:2). How can members be expected to hold fast “the faithful word” when elders themselves do not? When elders succumb to unbiblical or secular programs in the name of numerical church growth, then, church problems are inevitable.

Evident are the influences of teachings in the pulpit by those who received training from seminaries and liberal Christian schools. A generation of faithful Bible teachers and evangelists—G. K. Wallace, Thomas B. Warren, Batsell Barrett Baxter, etc., has passed. The current generation of prominent change agents operating in the brotherhood—Rubel Shelly, Max Lucado, Rick Atchley, etc., who have aligned themselves with Rick Warren’s and others’ philosophies regarding church growth, community church and charismatic movements, is in our midst.

Bible school programs have freely used class resources and materials written by those in denominational churches. Youth ministers have copied their systems, methodologies and activities from denominational churches.

Overall, facts pertaining to the Restoration Movement are now being distorted by those who have apostatized from the church they so despise but who still claim to be members of it. Indeed, it’s a sad story when a principle—and simply a common-sense principle—is being questioned, such as the following:

    “We establish the authority of Christ by direct command, by apostolic or approved example, or by necessary inference.”

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(no login)

Re: Biblical Illiterate Men In The Pulpit (John Rebman)

February 21 2005, 4:10 PM 

What happened to the Restoration slogan "Christians only, but not the only Christians"?

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Ken Sublett
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Slogans, now?

February 21 2005, 5:53 PM 

Slogans -- smogans:

The literate RM people along with the Bible and ALL of historical theologians defend the Commands, Examples and Necessary Inferences: now, you want to make it

CENIS and add SLOGANS as authority? I would appreciate some Doctor of the Law who quote this to please direct me to an original document. Please!

The way to lie about the Campbells is to lie about the Lunenberg letters. Campbell said that there MUST be "Christians among the sects" because he had been among the sects.

However, he used the word "Christian" in two ways. When someone lives and acts like a Christian we say, "that was a real Christian thing to do." However, in a true sense he recognized only BAPTIZED BELIEVERS as Christians. One who has not been baptized has failed in the ENTRY command to become a Disciple. If they are SINGING and making music DURING CLASS TIME they assuredly are NOT disciples.

Furthermore, to those who considered themselves Christians "among the sects" he said that they should COME OUT OF BABYLON. Campbell in effect says that they call him an FOOL if he believes that they are believers when he has been so active preaching.

And NO ONE can be sincere in blindly assigning this to the ANTI-instrumental churches of Christ as long as THEIR "bretheren and sistern" are so actively engaged in confiscating universities and BUYING UP professors to teach that we are legalistic, sectarian heretics, brother killers and muggers of ladies wearing furs. From the Lunenberg letter AFTER people misunderstood where THAT MISUNDERSTANDING is still used as the big lie:

1. Let me ask, in the first place, what could mean all that we have written upon the union of Christians on apostolic grounds,
    had we taught that all Christians in the world were already united in our own community?
2. And in the second place,
    why should we so often have quoted and applied to apostate Christendom what the Spirit saith to saints in Babylon--
    "Come out of her, my people, that you partake not of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues"--

    had we imagined that the Lord had no people beyond the pale of our communion!
Jesus said to MAKE disciples by preaching the gospel, baptizing believers and FURTHER TEACHING which AIN'T preaching. DISCIPLES were called CHRISTIANS. Therefore, syllogisms are still in effect because that is ONE function of SYNAGOGUING, and THAT proves that only baptized believers are CHRISTIANS. If you are defending and PAYING people to minimize baptism you are minimizing Jesus Christ and that means ANTI-Christ.


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Speak where the Bible is Silent
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Re: Slogans, now?

October 31 2008, 2:34 PM 

To Whom It May Concern:
Why aren't the responses in this thread in chronological order?
Just curious....

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(no login)

Not in chronological order

October 31 2008, 4:48 PM 

To “where the Bible is silent”:

Excellent question!

It really depends on the forum settings. The CM forums are set up for a response to be shown immediately below the preceding post, etc., etc. Other forums are set up so that the latest response in date and time would be the last one to display regardless of which post is being responded to.

Each format has advantages and disadvantages.

By the way, your slogan (“Speak where the Bible is silent”) is different and worthy of consideration. While I agree that one has the freedom to “speak,” whatever is “spoken” should be considered an opinion or a viewpoint until proven that it is in accordance with biblical specifications.

Speaking where the Bible is silent should not give permission to creating a new doctrine or “more traditions(s).” I believe that in New Testament Christianity, in Christian living, the New Testament is replete with what’s needed in order for one outside of Christ to become God’s child. The NT is also replete with instructions for Christians living.

Thanks for the question.

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Speak where the Bible is Silent
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Re: Not in chronological order

November 5 2008, 1:18 PM 

ConcernedMembers said..."While I agree that one has the freedom to speak, whatever is spoken should be considered an opinion or a viewpoint until proven that it is in accordance with biblical specifications.

If you are using the Holy Word as the Standard (hopefully you are)
then what if two people who are studying together interpret the Standard differently?

Whose interpretation do you go by? You can't say God's interpretation, now can you?
Reminder.....I have already said that both parties are using the Holy Word (KJV) as the standard for which to prove/disprove any matter of conflict.

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(no login)

"Whose interpretation do you go by?"

November 5 2008, 3:14 PM 

Then and still, it comes down to biblical specifications. And the keyword is specificity.

Whose interpretation do you go by? Good question. But it depends on the specifics. I think that such a question can be answered by providing an example or examples that relate the particular subject matter.

Let me mention, e.g., a very important issue related to how one should interpret baptism as God has designed it:

  • (a) Is one outside of Christ to be baptized IN ORDER TO receive remission of sins in His blood?
    -------------------- or -------------------
  • (b) Is one who is already considered a Christian to be baptized BECAUSE OF his sins having been forgiven in His blood [prior to baptism]?

While one side interprets and strongly believes in (a) and the other side in (b), then, references to other related passages and the correct translation of certain prepositions and conjunctions in NT Greek would be ways to further determine the accuracy of an interpretation.

BTW, would you provide examples of issues that you think might be interpreted differently by either side but yet relate to your question, Whose interpretation do you go by?


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Speak where the Bible is Silent
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Re: "Whose interpretation do you go by?"

November 5 2008, 3:50 PM 

Concernedmembers asked..."BTW, would you provide examples of issues that you think might be interpreted differently by either side but yet relate to your question, Whose interpretation do you go by?"

I know that you will say all issues are definitive within the scope of the Scriptures, but you know that is not the you really believe that people want to be different when it comes to understanding what the Lord will have us all do?

Baptism is not much of an issue with the church of Christ, but instrumental music is.
You will, of course, give me your INTERPRETATION and tell me that you would not give me man's interpretation but what God would have you do. That is what the other sides says also.
You would ask me does God autorize instrumental music in our worship to Him today.....and on and on. Instrumental music is a clear example of two people taking the same Bible, the same translation of the Bible, and coming up with two separate interpretations. You would tell me that you can prove to me that if I were to use instrumental music, as used by David in the OT, then I would have to give animal sacrifices and offere incense for worship to God.....which is now only about proving a point and not trying to truly understand the Word of God......using/abusing the Word of God to prove a point.
You would tell me that since 'God doesnt say not to' use instrumental music then God also doesn't not to use cocaine (I Cor 3:16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?), or ketchup and popcorn for the Lord's Supper (we have a clear example of wine or fruit of the vine--not ketchup). Like I have heard it said....God didn't say not to use cocaine......oh yes he did as quoted in 1 Cor 3:16.
Do you see how far unbalanced that the a cappela side is getting, just to hang it's hat on a tradition of a capella?
You get the picture.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Not in chronological order

November 5 2008, 4:42 PM 

If two people have two completely different interpretations for a passage or passages in the Standard (the Holy Bible), can both interpretations be correct? No, they cannot. Either one interpretation is correct and the other is not, or BOTH interpretations are incorrect.

If one person believes that 2 + 2 = 4 and another person believes that 2 + 2 = 100, only the first person is correct. The second person may think that he is correct, but he is "right" only in his misguided mind; his "right" exists only in his imagination, not in reality. If one person believes that coal is purple and another person believes that coal is orange, then BOTH people are incorrect.

The problem that people have with "interpreting" Scripture correctly is that they refuse to read and accept exactly what is written therein, especially in matters concerning the New Testament. People tend to twist, add to, take from, and bend Scripture to make it say what they want it to say instead of following exactly what the New Testament says to begin with.

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Speak where the Bible is Silent
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Re: Not in chronological order

November 5 2008, 10:55 PM 

Bill, you said...."If two people have two completely different interpretations for a passage or passages in the Standard (the Holy Bible), can both interpretations be correct? No, they cannot. Either one interpretation is correct and the other is not, or BOTH interpretations are incorrect."

Explain logically why both interpretations can't be right? I believe that if you can truthfully answer that question, then you will drop your cannons and grenades for a few minutes.
You see Bill, your thinking is flawed. First and foremost, if both parties use the KJV Holy Word as the Standard, the how do you know which party is right or wrong? You don't. The one side will always say that he/she is right, but how do you know. Get a consensus? Have 5 people tell you that your interpretation is the other side can get five more people to say that their interpretation is actually the right one?

It also isn't a matter of mathematics. If it were, it would be all to simple. We know that 2 + 2 = 4 and we know that 2 + 2 will never equal 100. We are speaking of an interpretation of life itself and how God tells us to go about livng our lifes. Can you relate mathematics to spirituality? Well, I guess you can, but at best it would be laughable. My name SPEAKS and tells the tale. God doesn't tell us how to do every single detail in life, nor does He tell us that we should have 2 songs, a prayer, two more songs, another prayer, the Lord's Supper, a few more songs, preaching, an invitation, and a closing prayer.....but that is the way WE have decided to do it. It is orderly. Is it orderly if we play a piano as we sing? Many here would not think so. They say we need authority to have that piano within a worship setting on Sunday. The order of service isn't authoritative, neither is the PA system, but it is still orderly. A PA system isn't adding to God's Word, but a piano is. One's a tool/aid while the other is an addition. Which is which is all interpreted by the interpreter.
happy.gif Yes Bill, I have heard it all.

Bill, you said...."The problem that people have with "interpreting" Scripture correctly is that they refuse to read and accept exactly what is written therein, especially in matters concerning the New Testament. People tend to twist, add to, take from, and bend Scripture to make it say what they want it to say instead of following exactly what the New Testament says to begin with."

So Bill, which side refuses to read and accept exactly what is written therein.....?
Your side certainly would not do that....

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(no login)

In order to display your post at the end ...

October 31 2008, 5:06 PM 

I would suggest:

  • (1) To copy a portion or all of the post being responded to; it may include the owner, message title, date and time;

  • (2) To click "Respond to this message" of the initial post or the beginning of the thread;

  • (3) To "paste" the information from step (1);

  • (4) Then, continue with the normal process of formulating your response, editing, etc.

I just did an example of how this message is shown at the bottom of this thread.


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Ken Sublett
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K.C.Moser foundation of Calvinism and Spirit INDWELLING. Part A

June 27 2015, 1:44 PM 

K. C. Moser is in the patter of those who suddenly decide that those who did not hire him or keep him were ALL WRONG and He has a new revelation: this spooks fellow spooks and they believe the false teaching based on twisting Scripture and using denominational theology instead of Discipleship. His Chapter on Indwelling is a work in progress because it takes a lot of DISCIPLESHIP to debunk THEOLOGY which by definition refutes the Christian resources. As the proof texts are scrambled our review will be here a little and there a little:

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This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jun 27, 2015 1:48 PM

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Ken Sublett
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K.C.Moser's Indwelling means a TRINITY

June 28 2015, 6:55 PM 

An observer noted that the Lipscomb trinity may have existed from much earlier than his FHU lecuture in 1938 and his book in 1942: this book became the foundation of a neo-trinitiarian branch of churches of Christ in opposition to all writers. I discovered that Shephard (who baptized me) finished up Lipscomb's material and his trinitarianism is consistent with K.C.Moser's claim to have discovered what no one else understood: that the indwelling of A holy spirit affirmed Calvin's views that you needed a direct operation in order to believe.

They missed reading Calvin's original material which said that one could not come to God without the miraculous operation of the Holy Spirit. He listed two WORKS necessary for one to believe.
First. God gave us the Scriptures which convey Spirit (mind)
Two. He sent out evangelists to PREACH the Scriptures.

This is lifted by neo-theologians who claim that one cannot even read or understand Scriptures without a "spirit" living INSIDE of you and speaking to you "beyond the sacred pages." With this "spirit" guiding them to get a new vision through new spectacles (Shelly) which becomes the COMMUNITY interpretion and reading. This excludes individual reading.

Theophilus INVENTED the concept of a TRIAD but NOT three separated persons.

[linked image]

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jun 28, 2015 6:57 PM

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Ken Sublett
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Lipscomb University and Overt warfare

June 30 2015, 1:30 PM 

Open Warfare where a "musical instrument is a machine for doing hard work mostly in making war and the SHOCK AND AWE of religious cults.

The Willow Creek father-mother of the stolen Purpose Driven Cult spreads like wildfire [serpent] among us because it defines Armageddon: Little pimples on the plains lusting to become big mountains. Mega Churches intend to dismantle other congregations and replace them with "daughters of the mother." However, Paul in 1 Corinthians 1 "makes more certain" the Prophecies by Christ:

Is. 33:7 Behold, their valiant ones shall cry without: the ambassadors of peace shall weep bitterly.
Is. 33:10 Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
Is. 33:11 Ye shall conceive chaff,
ye shall bring forth stubble:
your breath (spiritus), as fire,
shall devour you.

They have lit the fires (Ignis song starter or fire starter) before the end when the religious craftsmen are CAST ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE not because they are Biblically illiterate but because THEY ARE LYING IN WAIT TO DECEIVE: it is true "they are predestined." THEIR COUNTERS get all but a little flock hits.

The Word or LOGOS is the Regulative Principle: it EXCLUDES conceiving songs, sermons, rituals, taxes or anything that DIVERTS people from the word. The SERPO in the garden of Eden speaks of a spreading fire or a winding musical performance.

CONCEIVE: con-cĭpĭo to take to one's self, of the lang. of religion, to make something (as a festival, auspices, war, etc.) known, to promulgate, declare in a set form of words, to designate formally: “sic verba concipito,” repeat the following prayer, So of a formal repetition of set words after another person: Bucina, quae concepit aëra (by blowing)

Ignis: raving, inspiration, ore dabat pleno carmina vera dei,” Ov. F. 1, 473: “(Dido) caeco carpitur igni,” the secret fire of love, Verg. A. 4, 2; A. (Mostly poet.) The fire or glow of passion, in a good or bad sense; of anger, rage, fury:
raving, inspiration, Stat. Ach. 1, 509: “quae simul aethereos animo conceperat ignes, ore dabat pleno carmina vera dei,” Ov. F. 1, 473:

sŏno. Neutr., to make a noise, to sound, resound: aes sonit, the trumpet sounds,“plectra,” Prop. 4 (5), 7, 62. tympana, * Caes. B. C. 3, 105, 4 et saep. II. Act., to sound, utter, give utterance to, speak, call, cry out, sing, pour forth (syn.: “edo, eloquor, cano): (sc. Apollinem) concordant carmina nervis
“Pythius in longā carmina veste sonat,” sings, pours forth, accompanies on the lyre, id. 2, 31 (3, 29), 16; cf.: “sonante mixtum tibiis carmen lyra,” Hor. Epod. 9, 5: “te sonantem ... dura fugae mala,” id. C. 2, 13, 26: te carmina nostra sonabunt, shall sing of, i. e. shall celebrate, praise, extol, Ov. M. 10, 205;

Is. 33:12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime:
as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
Is. 33:13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done;
and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
Is. 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Is. 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

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At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
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120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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