Right or wrong, appropriate or not, controversial or not—it seems as if it is no longer an “issue” among the “contemporary” worship congregants when the “worship leader” does as he/she pleases in leading the “regular folks” into God’s HOLY presence. In other words, complacency or acceptance is the rule of the day, and no one is to question his “authority” and the power of the “power point” and the big screen. O, yeah, using the hymnbook is distractive in our “worship” to God, huh. Let’s just focus all of our attention on the Worship Leader and his/her partner, the screen. Oops, let’s not forget his Praise Team—which now performs to the congregation and sings for the congregation. Well, one might stress the notion that—performance or not—with the use of the services of the Praise Team, it is still a cappella. Really!?! Maybe so! But maybe so until the worship leader initiates the rhythmic clapping noise and others follow. Does clapping make it non-acappella? Certainly! Noise is created and the noise does not come from the vocal cords and the larynx, right? And it’s no different from the musical instruments! Neither instrumentation nor clapping admonishes and teaches those in attendance in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.

In addition, it may be said, “Move over, evangelist—you are no longer the center of attention; your sermonette is only a small portion of the hour-and-a-half-long MUSICAL WORSHIP; this is the NOW generation … the Worship Leader [now] RULES!”

OK—I’ll get to the point. Mr. Keith Lancaster may have experienced this somewhere else. But during the “contemporary worship service” this recent Sunday (Sept. 19. 2004), Keith had this, I should say, memorable experience. He had just very “enthusiastically” led this charismatic contemporary “praise” song with these words, “… ain’t no rock … ain’t no bird … ain’t no tree” or something like that, when a woman visitor, obviously of “Pentecostal” persuasion, raised and waved her hands, screaming “Hallelujah, Praise the Lord; I love you, Lord” repeatedly. It caught the attention of a lot of people—and it was disruptive, to say the least. It caught the attention of the Worship Leader, too. [Just imagine what was going through his mind. Might he have thought, “What have I done now?”] Anyway, Keith noticeably turned immediately to his partner—the big screen—to divert everyone’s attention to the “Video Presentation”—the most recent addition to the worship program.

Fortunately, the observance of the Lord’s Supper which followed was not disrupted … I don’t think, although I had to personally try very hard to focus my mind on the suffering and death of our Savior. I must admit that it was not easy.

Well, that was not the end of the disruption. I believe it was at the end of “Agnus Dei” (a song full of repetitive Hallelujahs) or of “Glorify Thy Name” (beautifully “performed” mainly by the Praise Team) when the Pentecostal lady did the same thing again, “Hallelujah, Praise the Lord; I love you, Lord!” Perhaps, it was after the latter song. I seem to recall that the following item on the worship program was the “Love Feast”—which drowned out the lady’s charismatic vocalization. And the elder had to interrupt the minute-long “greet one another” period before he could pray and “lay hands” on Bruce White prior to his sermon delivery.

Will this experience change the Worship Leader’s behavior on stage a bit? Well, it remains to be seen. Or, will it take several more visits by several Charismatic visitors in order to impact a change of behavior on stage? (Please note that I’m not implying that we should not have visitors from other religious groups. In fact, the Pentecostal lady, in this particular situation, was just responding to and following what’s expected of her based on what the Worship Leader is encouraging the attendants to do—and I don’t think that needs further explanation.)

Donnie

__________________________________________________

I would like to take this opportunity to pass along some information to those who are interested in knowing what we can expect in the weeks or months ahead. Some of the events have already occurred, such as the decision to employ the pulpit minister to replace Bruce White, etc. As soon as time permits, I will be reporting the “minister” appointment in “What Happened at Madison This Week.” Be assured that the Madison Marcher will be reporting these events also. Anyway, here’s a recent conversation I’ve had via e-mail that I’d like to share “personally” and “responsibly.” These are realities … let’s face it.

___________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: _____ _______ [______________@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 9:39 AM
To: donniecruz@msn.com
Subject: Steven Vail

Donnie...

As an insider I would like to provide you with the following information....

Steven Vail's employment was terminated at Madison Wednesday ... "he will be seeking other opportunities"....

Signed


___________________________________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: Donnie Cruz [donniecruz@msn.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 4:24 PM
To: '_____ _______'
Subject: RE: Steven Vail

_____,

I have just now gotten a chance to check my mail. Thanks for the invaluable information. It’s a shame that this has occurred. In my opinion (and I’m not sure what yours is … at this stage [???????]), Madison should have terminated … um … what’s his face … Keith Lancaster. I think it’s a fair assessment that Keith is a much greater “expenditure” for Madison than Stephen was/is. The action is a clear indication of where the “new” leadership is taking the congregation to.

Again, thanks to you, _____. Stay in touch … OK?

Donnie


___________________________________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: _____ _______ [______________@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 5:06 PM
To: Donnie Cruz
Subject: RE: Steven Vail

Sure ... I'll stay in touch... I just ask this information not be attributed to me directly... I asked the same of [Mr. _____________]...

It was strictly a power play by Keith ... he and Steven disliked one another a lot. Their relationship became adversarial.

It should be noted too, the congregation has no idea, but all worship services are completely choreographed, the prayers that are being said included.

Keith convinced [Elder ________] he should be able to return and lead worship, even after it was decided he wouldn't return. I'm sure budget-wise Steve was expendable at that point, and Keith used the opportunity to have him dismissed. It’s all about Keith. He moves everyone out of the ministry that he sees as a threat to his position. Steve just happened to be employed. He puts friends and people who fall down and gravel at his feet before the congregation, while more talented and qualified leaders are pushed aside.

Signed

___________________________________________________
[To be continued…]

Hay, Donnie, this IS the goal of charismatic worship. The GRACE-CENTERED concept is derived from CHARA or the goddess "Grace" in english. It is a universally perverted and perverting concept.

Remember, that I have hallucinated that it is very possible that you see some male clapper MOUNT the podium. This is the rise of ZOE or the Vineyard "mother" (aka New Wineskins) whose "vineyard" praise songs flood churches of Christ in Howard's New Style Praise book. She proclaims the THRESKIA worship invented by the pagan, perverted "gods" such as Dionysus-the god of old and new wineskins. Wimberette insists that the FOURTH act of worship is having a SEXUAL-LIKE climax with God (or the spirit person or someone). The FIFTH and final act of worship is GIVING OF MEANS.

What you were watching was Keith stroking the lady SEXUALLY. This was known by Lucifer (Zoe) in the garden of Eden. As promoted by the older paganism and faithfully recorded for our reading she was INDUCED into a visual and oral ORGASM. Ancient and modern "worship leaders" do not hesitate to tell you that they are leading you into THE PRESENCE of God. Ezekiel (and one of the Homebreaker's class whom Keith made him want to FLY) warns of the women prophetesses who MADE SOULS FLY.

We have noted that the word AOIDING or singing to PLEASURE is in violating of Paul's definition of church or the SYNAGOGUE in Romans 15 and what JESUS WOULD and DID do. ALL musical terms always intended to AROUSE you up. The connected word, aeirô, means to LIFT ONE UP in excitement. The LIFTING was derived from the old animal sacrifice use of MUSIC or NOISE MAKERS who SERVED the priests (and never God) as they sacrificed innocent animals by the tens of thousands. Therefore AEIRO facilitated by AOIDING meant to LIFT YOU UP TO CUT YOUR THROAT.

These words are the meaning of HERESY. The Shellyites would say that it is heresy or SECTARIAN not to USE (their words) women and worship teams. HERESY always meant to SEPARATE people by lifting them up with MUSIC in order to carry them away FOR THEIR OWN USE. The PAYOFF other than illegal cash from widows and hard working honest people, is the AROUSAL from the watching and therefore worshiping audience. Don't ever think that the misleader was not himself PLEASURED. The INTENTION is that you, according to Lynn Anderson, PUSH THEM as close to the edge as possible WITHOUT GETTING FIRED. Then back of and try again. Was the lady a PLANT? I suspect that Keith sensed DANGER to the collection plate (called TRUMPETS in the temple). By diverting to the overhead he was STILL planting SOME IDOL between the insulted "audience" and God in Christ Who INSISTED that we worship in the NEW PLACE of the human SPIRIT. Paul insisted on worship IN THE SPIRIT because if you don't you have the DOGS to worry about.

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.Ph.3:2

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Ph 3:3

A cappella Worship Leaders lists those with TEAMS. They missed a few but the number of DISCORDED churches--encouraged by Madison--is VERY SMALL.

http://www.aworshipleader.org/Congregations.asp

Ken

Ken,

Why didn’t I think of that? Of course, “OVERdosed” is really what I meant.

Thanks for the lesson. You’ve always been great at providing well-researched information. Now, we have evidences to validate your message.

Donnie

Literally! May the Lord have mercy on your souls. I can't believe you all are still at this. I rarely even come to this site. Only the mind(s) of the perverted would continue to turn people's worship (whether scriptural or unscriptural) into something sexually suggestive. Why not turn this into a productive (as opposed to destructive) web site that's modeled after the mission of Jesus: "to seek and to save that which was lost"?

Donnie,


What do you mean by "visual presentation"? Are they projecting words to the "praise team music" (without music notes) up on the big screen or has it progressed to something else now (i.e. slide shows or movies) as the praise team performs for the audience?

Oh btw, have they substituted for their regular worship on a given Sunday the showing of "The Passion" yet? I know that they showed the trailer for "The Passion" on their big screen, as they were excited about recruiting people to ride the bus over to see the movie at the theaters when it was released, and then capitalize on all the hype generated by that movie. It's just logical that they will actually show the movie on the big screen one Sunday in place of a contemporary regular worship service now that the video version is out.

Quote:

__________

Visual Presentation? September 20 2004, 4:20 PM


Donnie,


What do you mean by "visual presentation"? Are they projecting words to the "praise team music" (without music notes) up on the big screen or has it progressed to something else now (i.e. slide shows or movies) as the praise team performs for the audience?

Oh btw, have they substituted for their regular worship on a given Sunday the showing of "The Passion" yet? I know that they showed the trailer for "The Passion" on their big screen, as they were excited about recruiting people to ride the bus over to see the movie at the theaters when it was released, and then capitalize on all the hype generated by that movie. It's just logical that they will actually show the movie on the big screen one Sunday in place of a contemporary regular worship service now that the video version is out.

__________

1. There is nothing even remotely unscriptural about projecting words to songs without music. Four part harmony is a tradition. It's a GREAT tradition. I enjoy it thoroughly, and (more importantly) it should be pleasing to God if our hearts are right. However, singing without sheet music should be no less pleasing to God. (Just ask the 1st century church.)

2. The Passion was a great film about an important topic. No one should have to apologize for going to see it or encouraging others to go see it. It is not a substitute for worship, but taking a bus to go see it was not a bad idea.


Aren't there enough real, scriptural issues out there already? Do we need to muddy the waters with silly matters of personal preference?

B writes:

__________

1. There is nothing even remotely unscriptural about projecting words to songs without music. Four part harmony is a tradition. It's a GREAT tradition. I enjoy it thoroughly, and (more importantly) it should be pleasing to God if our hearts are right. However, singing without sheet music should be no less pleasing to God. (Just ask the 1st century church.)

2. The Passion was a great film about an important topic. No one should have to apologize for going to see it or encouraging others to go see it. It is not a substitute for worship, but taking a bus to go see it was not a bad idea.


Aren't there enough real, scriptural issues out there already? Do we need to muddy the waters with silly matters of personal preference?



*************************************************

1. I never said that projecting words to songs without music up on a big screen in and of itself is wrong. You see, the problem comes in pleasing God, and the only way to do that is to adhere to his word which is hard for many of us who don't know the new age songs. But it's just plain difficult to sing with the volume of the praise team, the actions of the worship leader, and the clapping section in full action. I guess that I could lip sing as the praise team performs. I don't know if this would qualify as singing spiritual hymns and psalms to one another though. Or I could clap if it didn't appear to me that I was simulating drums or cymbals, but then I don't know how I could reconcile this to singing spiritual hymns and psalms either.
Then there is the problem of the the typed expression "ooooooooo" when it appears on the screen. I'm not sure I exactly know how to make that sound, even if I wanted to. Again I run into the problem of how this is teaching one another with hymns though. Again, this comes off as a musical instrument simulation to me.

I never saw the Passion, but I'm sure it had quite an impact. Lots of purpose-driven churches played off the film--nothing unique to Madison about doing this. From the trailers, it appeared to me to be emphasizing the blood and gore of Christ's last days. Well that does give one pause to consider the magnitude of the sacrifice, but as to really telling the story and the teachings of Christ, I don't get the impression that it does that. If any people were swept up by the emotionalism of the moment, it would be interesting to see how many remained long-term, committed Christians. The movie comes across like a fad, and this Country gets caught up in fads one after another.

If these matters have been silly matters of personal preference, then there sure have been a good many Christians who have been disenfranchised by them-which begs the question-if they are so minor, why change things and introduce divisiveness and muddy the waters as you say?

1. Projecting words to songs without music is not the issue. Four-part harmony is not the issue … and I’m glad you thoroughly enjoy it. Singing with or without sheet music is not the issue. What do you think is/are the issues regarding “musical worship”?
   
   
2. I recently purchased a copy of “The Passion” movie. When I get a chance, I will view it. Joel’s question was fair. He just wanted to know if the movie has been substituted for worship because of his experience with this year’s “Easter Sunday worship” at Madison, when “interactive drama worship” was the program of the day.
   
   
3. I am so glad you said something about “real, scriptural issues.” You see, the scheme or methodology to grow the church that the change agents implement as they subvert a congregation is to justify the change in worship “style” by labeling it “personal preference”—you said that right! Guess what? The reality is that it is about changes in worship “CONTENT” rather than “STYLE.” Then, changes in doctrinal matters are not far behind. Do you even know what these changes in doctrine are? These are the more dangerous changes!
   

Donnie

Joel,

Good to hear from you!

The “video presentation” is a new item [or element] in “worship.” It’s just another way of ensuring that items or the order of “worship of the 50’s” [believe me, this is a favorite expression among the “change agents”] is no longer adhered to. I just ignore all that verbiage—by someone on the screen giving a short message or whatever for a minute. One of the first ones I saw was a group of both men and WOMEN reading from the book of Psalms. My first impression was that it was their way of now allowing the women to read from the Bible publicly via the screen—a form of deception!

Wait … I’m just looking at a recent choreographed worship program: it listed “welcome … congregational reading … video presentation … communion … love feast … [etc.]” among other things.

The “video presentation” is different from the “musical worship” in which words to each of the “praise songs” are projected on the screen—of course, without music notes. You know this methodology is an insult to many worshippers who rely on the music notes, rather than on the “Praise Team” in order to sing. Many folks do not want to be sung to … you know. But there are the musicians with their microphones just performing away. I imagine that they use the microphones: (1) for performance or (2) so that God can better “hear” them—ha-ha-ha!

The excitement over “The Passion” movie appears to have died down … rather quickly, I think. Perhaps, they have found out that the movie has not converted unbelievers by the hundreds or thousands as expected. (Just like the series of lessons on “tithing.” I haven’t heard the word mentioned ever again in the last couple of years.) But who knows what else the leadership has in mind—huh?

Donnie

Donnie,

Have you never been to a Pentecostal gathering? She only reacted the way she has been programmed. Obviously the right chord was struck that sent her into her frenzy. Out of pure curiosity, I went to a few meetings in a large Pentecostal church. I observed several things very much like the CoC. The differences stand out like black ink on a white shirt. They love their "god" and show much love to others.

The "black ink" is definitely the charasmatic service that ensues once the pastor takes the stage with the chosen choir. Musical instruments banging, hands held high, and the rumblings of the speaking in tongues. The tongue speaking happen during two events; first, when the pastor works himself into a frenzy and is followed with music from the organ(played by his wife) and second, when the pastor leads them in prayer, in a frenzied cadence then the organ starts up again. Because I can not leave well enough alone, I ask some why they speak in tongues when there is no one to interpret. Answer was that no one speaks in tongues without an interpreter unless they are speaking in their "prayer language." I ask if it is because god is too ignorant to understand their natural language. ( Please notice the lower case g for god )Then the hackles go up. Next answer is to edify God and is for no one else. My answer, how can any man build God up! I ask to discuss some of these and other issues, tithing, no communion healings, oil.... Final answer: I am not filled with the Holy Spirit and therefore can not discern what the scriptures have to say. They are not allowed to let their "light" mix with my "darkness."

It will be a most difficult task to ever change or convert someone that has been stung by this charasmatic style of worship. If anyone out there knows how I would Give my right arm to know . For I have loved ones that just will not listen. Did you know that even this pentecostal pastor speaks out against the term CHARISMATIC?

I do not know how Madison will turn out. I remember Madison being the hightlight of my attendance at Lipscomb 1983-84. Keep at it. Once it gets to be like what I described, get out. It will be too late. Not to worry though, Madison is not alone. Many more just like her. Keep posting, keep teaching, and keep warning... we are listening.

Wil Montero

ps I have some tapes of this pastor speaking in tongues during a sermon. No interpreter. Also, why do they "amen" themselves over and over and over?

Wil,

What a great title: “Seems as if Keith struck the right chord”!!!

Thanks so much for your response. I know … exactly. Yes, I’ve been to several Pentecostal services before. You have just described them very well. The subject of the Holy Spirit is misunderstood often even by some of our own preaching brethren and elders. For one thing, some of the elders here believe in the direct operation of the Holy Spirit [even] upon the congregation—not just upon each Christian. [We’ll deal with this subject at some other time.]

Anyway, thanks for the encouragement. This website will continue to warn other congregations that have not yet been infected with this dreadful spiritual disease. And you’re correct about the strong possibility that the Madison body may reach a point where the only option left is for one to leave.

Donnie

-----Original Message-----
From: Donnie Cruz [donniecruz@msn.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 12:20 AM
To: '_____ _______'
Subject: RE:

_____,

Which assembly period do you attend? I’m just wondering what the attendance trend has been in the early gathering. (As you know, the attendance board is not going to be put back up on the wall and the Marcher reports only the combined attendance.) It has gotten to as low as below 500 before … I know.

I feel strongly that Keith’s “sabbatical” was prompted partly, if not wholly, by the early attendants not wanting him to be the “worship leader.” Am I wrong? As of last Sunday, Kevin and Steve had been alternating the leading since Keith’s return—although the Madison Marcher reported (on 7/14/04, “Keith Lancaster returns from sabbatical”) the following: “Stephen and Kevin Dunnebacke, who have served as worship leaders during Keith’s absence, will continue to lead SOME SERVICES AS SCHEDULES PERMIT [emph., dc].” It sounds like it’s the plan for Keith to return to the 8:00 time … eventually. Maybe … Kevin without Stephen now at 8:00 o’clock … is this likely?

If the elders (mostly having served only in the last few years) weren’t influenced by the Saddleback scheme and the Charismatic movement, they more likely would be able to see that Keith, with his style of leadership, has been all along the central figure in Madison’s troubles. I was really hoping that the congregation would slowly but surely return to its original “format” as seemingly evidenced during the long period that Keith was “absent.” Forget that. It’s not going to happen anymore. Keith is back with all his charismatic moves on stage. Madison will never be the same again.

I think I may have heard about the Keith-Stephen thing before. I have learned to like Stephen’s way of handling the delicate “worship” stuff. He is talented and his natural voice is pleasant to listen to. Keith is arrogant and is after man’s praise for his ability. … He will never admit to the fact that he was responsible, for the most part, for the havoc that occurred in early 2001. He will never see that.

Well, I have more … comments to make. But this is all for now.

I’m always sensitive about attributing sensitive information to any individual, even if not asked. I will respect your request.

Talk to you later,

Donnie

I am from the Tulsa area, and attended the workshop for the first time this past year. Mr. Lancaster was leading singing the night I was there. All I can say is I actualy was embarrased by the actions on stage. I can't for the life of me imagine how our leaders seem to think they are more important than they really are. people a Song leader aka worship leader is not there for our amusement (entertainment) If I wanted to be entertained I would go somewhere else. It is a song leaders job to start the song and get the CONGREGATION into an active worship. It seems like some of these guys think we should just sit back and let them perform. The dancing actualy made me blush in embarasment. I actualy thought to myself Man I hope nobody I know sees me here, and Man I'm glad I didn't invite anyone to go with me to this. What a absolute tragedy.

I'll take my small congregation of singers over you and your praise team any day of the week and twice (literally) on Sunday.


as for those of you who have dealt with these problems on a daily basis. I'm sorry for you, and I pray God gives you strength.

It is said that neither the Devil nor his agents can BLUSH. So, you saw the holy whore of Revelation 18:22 in some of the LAST ORGIES.

It would be helpful if you went into more detail about what the PERFORMERS were doing and what the reaction was. Who was some of the other preachers involved? I can guarantee you that MOST of the customers got what they lined up and paid for.

I have posted your observations here:

http://www.piney.com/TulsaWorkshop.html

If you want your name attached I will post anything you write. If you click on the Jeff Walling index you will understand why they are Daring to Dance with God but are ending up in the arms of Lucifer (bisexual) or ZOE (called the BEAST and the "female instructing principle." She as EVE is wholly seduced as a bride is seduced by Satan so that it can be said that Cain (meaning a musical note) was OF THAT WICKED ONE.

http://www.piney.com/WallingInd.html

http://www.piney.com/FathDanceWorship.html

See Rubel Shelly and Max Lucado on dancing

http://www.piney.com/WinMaxDance.html

See what Heredotus knew about dancing

http://www.piney.com/Heredotus6.html#When

It is certain that the TEAMS are co-teaming with self-selected "elders" who know that a SEXUAL presentation will suck in the seekers.

It will get worse: I promised the forum that we would see some more dramatic OUTING right there in what they pretend to be the Holy Place. The Egyptians called it oral and visual orgasm.

Ken Sublett

Donnie,

I've not attended services at Madison in awhile. I'm saddened to know that things are still "progressing."

I'm a little concerned with your "judgement call" to air this correspondence publicly. It's your business, of course, but seems to me that your Christian example to others could potentially be damaged by stepping over a certain line.

Don't you think this could potentially be misconstrued as a grudge rather than just truth or exposure?

Have you spoken to Bro. Lancaster first as we're directed to by the Word?

E. B.

E. B.,

Let’s not worry too much about “judgment” calls. In this particular case, I have asked permission from this correspondent, and I’ll use caution. The dangers confronting the church are real. The messages from this correspondence deal with realities. So, let’s get real.

Grudge? I have nothing against Keith as a person. But to me his influences are troubling. Spoken to Mr. Lancaster? Please don’t waste his time. He knows what he is DOING and DESTROYING!

Donnie

Bro. Cruz:
"Grudge? I have nothing against Keith as a person. But to me his influences are troubling. Spoken to Mr. Lancaster? Please don’t waste his time. He knows what he is DOING and DESTROYING!"

My point was your public airing of grievances before actually talking to the man. You know the steps we're COMMANDED to do; the first step is a one on one conversation. I have done so...will you?

-EB

Estill B. wrote:
"Have you spoken to Bro. Lancaster first as we're directed to by the Word?"

EB, thats's a joke! Donnie will not confront anyone about his perceived problems at the church. I am a witness to this. He has been asked by the elders to present his side to them, and he refused. He only wants to hide in the balcony and stir up trouble with his "what ifs". I am personally disappointed with the person that is feeding him false information about Stephen Vail. You see, I recognize the writing style, and know who it is. This person also has a large ego, and an axe to grind.
This person, like Stephen, wants Keith's job.

Donnie,

Based on your description of Mr. Vail, it is obvious you had NEVER been around him. If you want to meet with Keith, let me know, and I'll arrange a meeting. If not, why don't you let other people business alone, and stop spreading gossip third hand?

What say ye??

In The Know,


Those elders have volumes and volumes of sound reasons that can be found on this site to cease and desist the destructive, unsound practices they are implementing and continuing there. A meeting will serve to accomplish nothing. There is no compromising the biblical truth.

A meeting would only amount to an oportunity for the elders to exert some Hegelian pressure on him. I don't blame him for not subjecting himself to that.

How about subjecting to the authority of the elders? Does that mean anything anymore? If the elders ask to meet with someone, they are hardly at fault if he refused.

I'm sure, like everything else on this site, there is much more to the story than we are hearing from either side. Although there may be a lot of truth to what you read here, you are about as likely to find the honest view of the Madison elders here as you are to find an honest view about George Bush on CBS.

There are 2 sides to every story, and this site provides a very heavy dose of one of them.

"Not subject himselft to that? September 22 2004, 4:54 PM


How about subjecting to the authority of the elders? Does that mean anything anymore? If the elders ask to meet with someone, they are hardly at fault if he refused.

I'm sure, like everything else on this site, there is much more to the story than we are hearing from either side. Although there may be a lot of truth to what you read here, you are about as likely to find the honest view of the Madison elders here as you are to find an honest view about George Bush on CBS.

There are 2 sides to every story, and this site provides a very heavy dose of one of them."


******************************************

B,


How about subjecting to the authority of elders who protect the flock from ravaging wolves and who stand on sound biblical principles? Does that mean anything anymore? Noone is under any obligation to submit to the authority of any elder that doesn't stand on biblical truth. If the elders have shown no sign of backing off of destructive, divisive practices, the person who disagrees with these changes is hardly at fault if he refused to meet with such agents of error. Such a meeting is clearly a ploy. The problem could be resolved clearly enough by those who implemented the divisive changes in the first place by revoking the changes and reverting back to how the worship was to begin with.

Sure, there's probably more to the story, but there are certain, undeniable facts that are as public as they can be. Anyone can attend a service there and see the problems themselves. Also the exodus of the former members that were disenfranchised by the changes is a public fact. The elders' actions caused division, and unlike the issue of CBS and George Bush, anyone can attend a worship service at Madison and see that the truth concerning the matter is spoken on this site for themselves.

Don't know why my name didn't print. Anonymous on 9/22/04 and 9/23/04=Joel






Joel

Bravo!!!
It is time to stop allowing the elders of a great many churches to run rampant over their flocks. If members will READ and STUDY for themselves exactly what the duties and obligations, as well as the qualifications of an elder are, then a great many problems might be solved.By voting with your feet. Elders are to teach and to be spiritual examples, by their wisdom and their spiritual character. A great many elders are leading because they are great accountants or businessmen, or power drivers. Exerting power, control and dominance over the flock is NOT what an elder is to do.

Any programs which are started in a congregation, and the elders refuse to fully explain the present and future directions of these programs and what they mean to the congregation and how they will affect the congregation are to be suspect.

If an elder or a group of elders decides to start something new and different and cannot or will not give the members full information about EVERY aspect of these programs, including where it originated, the perceived need for it, how it will affect everyone etc, then sorry , I have NO obligation to follow such a person or persons , no matter what they call themselves.

Particularly, if, when people start questioning things and the leaders send out the message in any form, that 'grumbling, or strife or divisiveness' will not be tolerated then watch out: you not only have not been consulted about the direction of your leadership, you are being rolled over by a group of arrogant bulldozers.

Questioning is NOT the same as blatant defiance, and only bullies will use this tactic against honest people who simply want answers. And, when people don't get answers they start talking among themselves....AS THEY SHOULD, as Christians and as free human beings.

The fruits of the spirit do not include: arrogance, silence when questioned, putdowns, or patronising attitudes.They also do not include outright lies or misleading statements as to the direction the leaders are taking the congregation.

What I am finding is that in Churches of Christ, like any other church, what comes from the pulpit is more indicative of the state of the heart of the speaker and the leaders than anything else. We can use the bible to save and redeem souls in joy and love,and sound teaching or we can use it to frighten, dishearten and discourage people.And we can use it to lord it over others.Its odd that the piece by David Lipscomb here on this site, regarding the power of elders is so often ignored even in our conservative churches.Twisted and power hungry hearts always twist scripture. Scary isn't it?

B,

I’d be more than willing to be in subjection to “the authority of the elders.” But there are conditions, though. Elders “take care of the church of God … must be blameless [the havoc is not easily forgotten and, to my knowledge, is unrepented of] … are not novice[s] … must have a good report of them which are without … are apt to teach … rule well … labor in the word and doctrine.”

To be fair and balanced, why don’t you take the initiative to provide your side a very heavy dose of your story? We are interested in hearing your side.

Donnie

Do you ACTUALLY think that the elders should consult THIS site for their information on how to pastor a church??? Are you KIDDING me?

JD

JD,


No, I'm definitely not kidding. But I think that you make my point rather well. If the elders have the same attitude about the wealth of information here as you do, then it would be totally futile to meet with them.




Joel

Joel, Well I do think that there is a WEALTH of information here...it is just the wrong information based on legalistic, pharaseeical attitudes. I don't think that any Fellowship would want to run their church that way. Does "White-washed tomb" resonate with you at all?

JD

• I had never been around Mr. Vail—you’re correct. Neither have I been around Mr. Lancaster—let me add. No, I have no desire to meet with Keith—that would be my precious time wasted and his as well. I’ve made my statements. If he has not been informed about my statements, feel free to spend time keeping your printer busy for a long time and then present your pages and pages of documents to him as your special gift. Then, allow him to make a list of my statements that he disagrees with. Then, he may decide to arrange to meet with me. Remember, he is the “high visibility” person … I’m not.
  
  
• “Problems at the church” are not “perceived.” They are real. The leadership knows the real problems, whether or not they choose to rectify them.
  
  
• You are not a true witness. Certain elders, who did not want the “other” elders involved, practically coerced me into meeting with them—that caused me to miss almost the entire assembly period. Issues resolved? NONE!
  
  
• Stir up trouble? Any proof? Were you there this past Sunday when the Pentecostal lady—and it was not her fault—simply reacted to Keith’s antics on stage? There was definitely a disruption. Again, let me say it was not the lady’s fault! One acted; the other reacted.
  
  
• Hey, don’t put the blame on the person you are “personally disappointed with”—my facts are confirmed and validated, thank you. Instead, why not spend some time posting some really positive things about your Worship Leader. You know, we will be very interested in these matters.
  

Donnie

P.S.: BTW, should I change my mind and decide to have you arrange a meeting with Keith … well, who is “In the know” and what is his/her phone no. or e-mail address?

"Were you there this past Sunday when the Pentecostal lady—and it was not her fault—simply reacted to Keith’s antics on stage?"

She's not new to Madison. She has been attending off and on for 10 or more years.
It's possible she is not as "normal" as you are, Donnie.

ItK posted: She's not new to Madison. She has been attending off and on for 10 or more years.
It's possible she is not as "normal" as you are, Donnie.

Well, the issue of what’s “normal” … I’m not going there. But I need to emphasize once again that I am not blaming or criticizing this lady. The crux of the matter is the Worship Leader’s performance on stage—what induces the “regular” worshipper to react to the way the performer acts.

Donnie

-----Original Message-----
From: _____ _______ [_____________________]
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 9:59 AM
To: Donnie Cruz
Subject: RE:

Donnie,

The real reason Keith didn't lead 8 am services was that it was a waste of his time—in his opinion. He didn't have the audience or the response he wanted. Numbers have dipped below 500 and stayed there.

When I first arrived at Madison … I refused to see things the way he did. I am a believer in new songs, but there is a balance....one which moves between tradition and throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I felt and still feel that genuine spirit-led worship has nothing to do with the same things Keith believes. His primary failing is he thinks you can manipulate human emotions, and to a degree you can, but it is temporary. There must be substance. When you wallow in self-promotion, there isn't any time for that.

Kevin is now alone at 8 am. Stephen is already gone. It has been a very bitter pill for him to swallow. I know, too, that little if anything will be said publicly about it. Regardless, too, of what is said publicly, Keith and Bruce stay at arms length as well. All of the hugging and public displays are just that. I have a great deal of respect for Bruce; he is genuinely interested in the church and its success.

The most unfortunate aspect of this entire sorry episode has been ignorance and arrogance. There has been plenty of it to go around.

The elders I know very well. They are for the most part deeply convicted men who understand their role of shepherding very well. The most prominent, though, […], likes the sound of his own voice, and is an extension of Mr. Lancaster.

I’m sure there are worship wars going on at other congregations. In cases where anyone is at the center of the storm, it’s a better choice to walk away than fight and tear things apart. It is best to put personal ego and wants aside. A Christian’s experience can be very painful, much like death or divorce.

I say that to tell you this—there are no winners here. The winners are Goodlettsville, Millersville, Neely's Bend and other churches that were withering on the vine. Although some of the people that migrated to those churches were just as guilty of ego-driven strife as those who stayed behind. When God's will moves from most important to any other place, it is a slippery slope.

…

Signed

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

-----Original Message-----
From: Donnie Cruz [donniecruz@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 2:17 AM
To: '_____ _______'
Subject: RE:

_____,

Thanks for corresponding.

It’s refreshing to read your comments on a number of things and issues. So, Keith’s opinion is that he’s too busy to lead singing at the 8 am assembly. I think that his salary should be reduced greatly for that reason. Ha-ha-ha! Better yet, he should have been the one gone—not Stephen. I agree with what you said earlier—that the worship period is so programmed and “choreographed” including the prayers. To me, it’s all turning out being a “MUSICAL” worship—think about that. I find it very difficult to grasp that the early Christians gathered in such manner. I’m sorry, but in the assembly I can hardly wait for the observance of the Lord’s Supper and the Bible lesson—bypassing all that fancy, fake musical entertainment. [Note: I think Nick Boone did a great job leading singing at Madison in the past … in that I actively and sincerely participated in the singing of great hymns.] Acts 20:7 talks about the assembly of the saints. But don’t get me wrong. There are some great new songs that will eventually become classic hymns, but many of the new, contemporary music pieces are simply not worship material. (There are also some songs in hymn books that are not worship material, but I’d say that many of the hymns have connection with God’s truth—and I really miss them a whole lot.)

You made me laugh at what I’ve always believed about all that hugging and public displays of closeness, etc. Bruce used to praise Keith a lot (and I think he was sincere about it), but Keith never returned the favor. Keith has always thought of Keith alone. I’m learning to like Bruce more and appreciate what he does, although I do not agree with a few of his teachings. I sense friction between the two guys. Can you imagine the changing trend? In the past, the minister was the key person in the assembly. Now, it is the “worship leader”—how I despise that term so much! There’s no such animal in the NT. It’s all man-made. And because of that, it’s not so much that Bruce has an inferiority complex as Keith getting most of the credit in making the programmed musical worship successful and “inspiring”—as you said, temporarily.

The Elder []-and-Keith combo is something else. I honestly believe that both men had more to do with the havoc in the church a few years ago.

_____, I commend you for being frank with me. You have already confirmed many things I had thought to be so. Your involvement in church work is very commendable. We all should be, although in varying capacities.

Talk to you later,

Donnie

2nd hand gossip!

Donnie,

Are you getting your information from a "bird"??

Yes, from a reliable bird that speaks the truth while other humans do not.

No … facts, evidences and hidden truths are revealed, confirmed and validated!

You can try to defend those e-mails however you want, but they are worthless.

At their core, they attempt to get inside Keith Lancaster's head. That is something that only Keith and God are able to do. None of you have any idea what Keith's motivation is for anything, and you obviously aren't interested in finding out from him (even though that is the scriptural course of action).

Jesus took more care in dealing with the Pharisees than you guys do with Keith.

Sooner or later you have to face the reality that this is the direction that the elders at Madison have chosen. Their direction is clear. You have made your side very clear, but it is not changing anything. Now the cause for division lies more along your side. There are other congregations in the area that would fit very well with your beliefs and tastes. It is unfortunate for the conservative members at Madison. They have done nothing wrong. But the choice eventually comes to stay and work in the direction of the elders or to move on. Staying and working against them is no more scriptural than the problems you point out.

When home is no longer home, it doesn't help to stay there simply because it was once home.

One other thought, if I used the logic of some on this message board, the fact that you are associated with Madison at all would make you a "change agent".

B,

The clear logic is in the e-mails. Please take time to review them before I continue with more e-mails that also have clear messages in them.

Now we’re hearing the advice coming from someone [“B”] who is not a member at Madison [or, are you?]! I would like to make this clear—that the direction that the elders at Madison have taken has been realized by me, by the owners of this website and by other contributors who have sacrificed time and effort to carry out the message that God’s will for the church does not need improvisation. When did this realization come about? A long time ago….

What should it take for anyone to simply understand that neither I nor this website is changing or has changed anything regarding the truth and the church? How and why is one incapable of seeing the blunders of the leadership at Madison? Of course, from your standpoint, you see blunders as being equal to a “clear vision” or the “right direction”—just because they are elders—correct? Well, a review of the qualifications of elders would not be a waste of time, you know.

For your information, B, and I’m sure this will make you happy … that the Madison leadership is not done yet with Rick Warren. Slowly but surely the leadership continues to implement more and more of Rick Warren’s methodologies to “grow the church.” In fact, the leadership has approved the use of one of Rick Warren’s “purpose-driven” manuals for one of its Bible study classes—and it’s going on as we speak. What did I just say—a “Bible study” class that prefers Rick Warren’s manual as a resource/guide over the Holy Scripture? Hurray, it’s Warren again!

B, please don’t let me think that you are a confused person. One moment, you claim to be a “conservative” person in regard to “truth” matters. The next moment, you don’t, but instead go so far as to accuse our “side” of causing division. W-h-a-a-a-a! Why would a side which is not implementing controversial changes be causing division? Conversely, why would the side of the change agents implementing controversial changes be not causing division?

Don’t worry about the “home” situation, OK? I think I’m smart enough to know when that time comes. Now, your last statement has really made me smile — “the fact that [I am] associated with Madison at all would make [me] a ‘change agent.’" This will be my favorite quote for a long, long time.

Donnie

-----Original Message-----
From: _____ _______ [_____________________]
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:33 AM
To: Donnie Cruz
Subject: RE:

Donnie,

Thanks for your confidence.

Another tidbit for your examination—it has been further decreed by the Worship Leader [emphasis, d.c.] that each week, second service, there will be a video presentation of some sort. I'm sure it’s another way of bringing the flock into the presence of God.

One can only wonder how long it will be until the fog machine makes its way into the assembly.
I also understand the teenagers are performing a drama around the events of 9/11 this Wednesday night in Bixler's Chapel.

Might one speculate that Mr. Vail’s salary went to someone [really needed to be, d.c.] on staff full-time to facilitate the flow of video, voice, and mass media technology in general?

As witnessed this past Sunday, there is also a move toward multiple readers/performers, along with/instead of congregational readings, smaller groups—men, women, teens—all prompted by the jumbotron screen.

So where does it stop?

No one knows, but it’s picking up speed.

Signed

P.S. … and how could I forget?

A Mr. __________ was in our assembly yesterday as well. His area of expertise? Church Sound. So draw your own conclusions. [… … …]

Could a new sound system be in the works for the financially strapped church?

The wall of sound is coming.

Signed



======================================================

\o/ \o/ \o/ “HOLY ENTERTAINMENT”—a redefinition of WORSHIP. \o/ \o/ \o/

======================================================

• Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:31 AM—
  
  “There is a definite disconnect between Bruce [minister] and Keith [Worship Leader]. The underlying tension is growing.”
  
  Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 11:59 PM
  
  Yes, I was in the assembly yesterday. The relationship between Bruce and Keith is … well … how they are acting on stage. One leaves the stage as the other one readies to deliver his sermon without a word to each other? It used to be that Bruce often made favorable comments to/about Keith (just not sure if genuine or feigned because of the audience). And I recall Keith never returning the favor. [This should not come as a surprise as …] I have already posted several times about the … rivalry going on between them—Keith trying to be the “worship” boss—probably what Elder ______ wants or expects.
  
  There is also this thing about the elder “laying hands” on Bruce before he delivers his sermon. This has been going on for several weeks now. I really think that Bruce is very uncomfortable with that. As I’ve said before, there are some new “teachings” that I do not agree with, but I still consider him as an “old-time-y” preacher. He remembers well that this sort of thing was foreign to churches of Christ in the past. Well, so much for who bosses whom! … Donnie
  
  
• Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 1:57 PM
  To: donniecruz@msn.com
  Subject: this past Sunday
  
  Donnie, I read your post just now, and I believe the reason that Mr. Lancaster led both [not only the “contemporary” but also the “traditional”] services was that Kevin was out of town this weekend...
  
  Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 12:17 AM
  Subject: RE: this past Sunday
  
  I agree with you. That’s why in my post I said something about waiting to see what happens next week and the following weeks. I certainly hope that Kevin remains as the song leader at 8:00 o’clock, even if it means additional expenses to the church. I’m afraid that many folks there at the early gathering would rather not see Keith’s face. … Donnie
  
  
• Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 9:06 AM
  
  Donnie, … The “laying on of hands” is growing trend. … If you notice the elders are all “miked” now, so they can go down to the front row when there are responses and “lay hands on” those who respond, as they pray.
  
  Certainly, as it pertains to Bruce and Keith, why wouldn't the "worship leader" be able to offer a prayer on behalf of the minister? Unless …
  
  
  1. The minister didn't want him to.
     
  2. The worship leader didn't want to.
     
  3. There was tension between the two men.
     
  4. The worship leader wasn't qualified (hmmm!).
     
  5. The elders want to appear more as “shepherds.”
     
     
  Another underlying symptom, the formation of a “Deacons Committee” that’s sole responsibility is to take care of day to day operations so the eldership can “shepherd.” Interesting, don't you think? … Signed
  
  
• Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 9:58 AM
  Subject: Phil Barnes
  
  Barnes was named to new minister yesterday—he was the second choice … he was at Hermitage. (A large number of Madison departures went there, and he eventually left) and to his current job at Western Hills. Chris Steadman from Texas was the first [choice]—he decided to stay put. The church has also sold a piece of property for 1,000,000.00 where the children’s home is to reduce debt. They will also be announcing the hiring of an undisclosed person to start a ministry that will be announced next Sunday, Sept. 26th. [This has occurred since then, D.C.]
  
  
• Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 6:15 PM
  
  Donnie, … the hiring to be announced next Sunday is a full-time Spanish minister. [Yes, Bruce White has written about this in the Marcher, September 29, 2004, “Abraham Olivera Joins Staff.” On a personal note, this is REAL evangelism—expanding the borders of God’s kingdom. D.C.]
  
  Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 9:53 PM
  Subject: RE: Messages....
  
  … I haven’t posted much lately. I’m way behind. There are lots of good materials just waiting to be posted and so many sources or resources for me to read. This entire process is time consuming. … But I’m doing the best I can. I agree with the goals and objectives of the owners of the website—just keep warning congregations from being infiltrated. The church is at a critical stage where unnecessary changes are taking place, especially in doctrinal matters—these are more troubling than anything else.
  
  It appears that Bruce White “does not belong: [I think you know what I mean] … or is probably made to feel that way. I’m concerned about his replacement. I haven’t looked at the Western Hills site that closely yet. But from what I gather, if that’s where Phil Barnes is coming from, the emphasis is on “come as you are.” This is made to appear as though attending worship should not demand proper attire. That’s a “surface” kind of thing and is not even the issue. It really has more to do with an invitation to open fellowshipping with the denominational world. Well, I’m not getting into this right now.
  
  … I suspect often, and often my suspicions are pretty accurate—you have confirmed a number of those [events and occurrences] already. But then, having studied how the change agents operate their business in the brotherhood, it’s really not that surprising. But it’s good to hear real evidences from others.
  
  Donnie
  
  
• Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 9:44 AM
  
  Donnie,
  
  Phil Barnes tried to inject Hermitage with Praise Teams from Madison before moving on to Western Hills. He is very much a believer in the Community Church Movement.
  
  Tom Haddon begins this week a study on the book by John Mark Hicks, "Come to the Table"—again, an attempt to welcome everyone into the fellowship of saints. He will be utilizing drama and artists’ painting during class to drive home the lessons each week. If you notice, it is just a matter of time before full-fledged drama comes to Sunday mornings on a regular basis. Wednesday night services are beginning to have dramas in them, as well. It is, in my opinion, the "frog in boiling water" situation. … Further, … everything … is confirmed information. It’s not speculation.
  
  Bruce is being phased out slowly. The plan there is so that it won't upset the 8 am worshippers. He has been glue for the congregation. Bruce and Phil will alternate the pulpit to begin with, and then it will become Phil's around the first of the year. The elders have left the two of them to work that out. [Bruce White since then has made this announcement, D.C.] The plan, as well, is to have a new youth minister in place in the next couple of weeks [as was announced a few months ago, D.C.] replacing Tory Treadway, and Shana Curtis.
  
  
• Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 9:17 AM
  Subject: RE: Correspondence
  
  Donnie, … People are like sheep, they follow without reason. Change is only valid for a couple of reasons, in my humble opinion:
  
  
  1. To better serve or glorify God, and in doing so not violate scripture.
     
  2. To convict us about what we believe and why we believe it.
     
     
  Change just to do something different simply upsets the membership. “The Purpose Driven Life” and the other book, “The Purpose Driven Church,” both are being used in a number of different ways as I understand it—from the classrooms to care groups. In Mr. Haddon's class, they are examining "the way" we do "The Lords Supper," which may be necessary—I don't know.
  
  

______________________________
It appears from all these announcements that the Worship Leader, Keith Lancaster, will have a new youthful [“New Age”?] team—Keith’s team will be joined by Phil Barnes, pulpit minister, and a “youth” minister.

I broke my rule of never buying the FLOOD of books trying to WASH AWAY THE CHURCH by buying Hick's Come To the Table. It has been noted that there is a kind of daisy chain of writers each endorsing one another's books to give credibility to the INCREDIBLE. As it has been well noted in the reign of sound bytes and illiteracy EVERYONE buys the books but NOBODY reads them. I told a friend that if he could get through the first chapter of an elder-recommended Max Lucado book I was going to sic the gender police on him. Sure enough, he turned out to be male.

I have the same creepy crawly feeling trying to help Hicks Help feed God and water and wine Him. But, I read enough to review a few of the PRE-CROSS and POST-ARMAGEDDON comments which jive with the TITHE and the unlawful and ungodly LAW OF GIVING.

http://www.piney.com/Hicks.Come.Table.html

Hicks cannot grasp the minimal understanding that mandatory animal sacrifices were the CURSE added because of transgression at Mount Sinai. That transgression was returning to their universal practices of MUSICAL IDOLATRY just after they SAT DOWN TO EAT. These festivals were "with and for dead ancestors" or the demons.

You might rembember the Lord's Supper as NOT a common meal which was the polluted AGAPAE where they ATE and DRANK body parts of the living goddess agents in a bad time of the month. This is why you don't turn hungry people loose in a mixed assembly. Because they have been "given liberties" to narrate their own Bible, here is what you gets with your mad hatter:

The Meaning of the Fellowship Meal [p.46]

John Mark Hicks: Several features characterize the fellowship meals of Israel. First, it is a moment of communion between God and his people. God eats with his people as the fat is burned to him. God is present at this meal. It is eaten before the Lord as if God sits at the table with the worshipper. Thus, worshippers eat with assurance, thanksgiving and confidence as they experience communion with God in this meal. God comes to the table with his people as he calls them to a table to experience his communion.

"a time for sharing, prayer and conversation about what God has done for us... (p. 188). Earlier he calls it a "Jubilee festival" (p. 63). He would have it observed with "resounding jubilation or enthusiastic outbursts" (p. 97).

Once I get my stomach settled I may try to abstract some more of Hicks Hoaxe which fits VERY SMOOTHLY with clapping and humming while REMEMBERING the Death of Christ. Of course, the TITHE and musical mediating and marching into Canaan all has the meaning that these people are MOCKING a holy god. I don't see that as bad: God promises us strong delusions while we are being led to the slaughter pens to the beat of Levitical Warrior Music:

Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise (hymn) unto thee. Heb 2:12

Declare in Greek is:

Apagello (g518) ap-ang-el'-lo; from 575 and the base of 32; to announce: - bring word (again), declare, report, shew (again), tell.

Aggelos (g32) ang'-el-os; from aggello, [prob. der. from 71; comp. 34] (to bring tidings); a messenger; esp. an "angel"; by impl. a pastor: - angel, messenger

This does not mean to entertain but to do the work of an evangelist: Speak or Preach to one another:

Euaggelizo (g2097) yoo-ang-ghel-id'-zo; from 2095 and 32; to announce good news ("evangelize") espec. the gospel: - declare, bring (declare, show) glad (good) tidings, preach (the gospel).

An angel is a messenger. The GOOD news when WROUGHT becaue the ev-angel. A messenger who rushed across rivers and mountains to bring news of victory was an evangelist. Jesus Christ, the Angel of the Old Testament endured great agony in order to "sing to the Gentiles."

Sing is not MUSIC.

Apalgeo (g524) ap-alg-eh'-o; from 575 and algeo (to smart); to grieve out, i.e. become apathetic: - be past feeling

Anah (h578) aw-naw'; a prim. root; to groan: - lament, mourn.

And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Luke 22:44

Agonia (g74) ag-o-nee'-ah; from 73; a struggle (prop. the state), i.e. (fig.) anguish: - agony.

A certain sign of MOCKING Christ is refusing to "teach that which has been taught" and "sing" or rather SPEAK "that which is written." Those who are asked to read the Hicks Judaism or rather Paganism will puke it out or prove themseves strangled spiritually.

I will Hike up Hicks -- maybe or maybe not.

Ken Sublett

You are right to be concerned about the appointment of Phil Barnes as your new preacher. He definitely tried to push Hermitage into being a community church. He successfully pushed the older song leader out, and a succession of new worship leaders were ushered in with dismal results. Be prepared for each sermon to be started out with a story, usually about himself when he was a child or in the military or one of many jobs that he held. Be ready for the big screen to be utilized for cartoons and such to accompany his lesson. His sermons should follow the seeker movement very well as they are structured to be entertaining, containing very little to challenge your Christian living, being careful to not offend anyone.

I remember one sermon in particular which was entirely structured around encouraging everyone during worship to "lift their hands to God." I'm pretty sure this sermon had been special ordered by one of the elders who was observed "semi-lifting" his hands during songs (but not above shoulder level so as not to attract an inordinate amount of attention, as he was the only one in the assembly doing this). Anyway, that sermon is typical of the kind of fluff and unsubstantive lessons that you may look forward to hearing at Madison in the future.

It was only through the efforts of certain dedicated members who refused to be driven off by these events, and made their feelings known in the strongest terms that he decided that he might be better off going to a Church, such as Western Hills which is already liberal instead of trying to orchestrate the changing of a congregation to liberalism. Yes, Madison is well on it's way to totally embracing the church growth movement. Soon, I expect to see Madison's name listed on the Willow Creek Association registry along with Donelson's.


Joel

Latter day Trinitarians in churches of Christ which is CURRENTLY the produce of Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly make it ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that Jews will not come close to you and Muslims may try to kill you.

The COMMON MEAL where Rubel Shelly affirms that Jesus would join us in a barbecue feast and some churches are actually eating the Lord's Supper with swine flesh still in their teeth. The bread and juice does not BECOME broken body and poured blood but Jesus shows forth or preaches through us that He IS the body and blood. Fittingly, when he sings in the congregation, sing means to "grieve out a hymn." That is what we do when we remember that HE is the mediator (and not the teams) and we remember His DEATH. Only the Levitical warrior musicians mocked or celebrated at the death of Jesus.

While word haters never catch on, the DIVERSITY in Romans 14 had to do with both FOODS and MUSIC to call the gods down for a festival of food and sex. IF you even think about a common meal during communion you KNOW that you are DELIBERATELY SOWING DISCORD just because some "scholar" tells you that the Lord's Supper is a sacrificial supper where God eats.

But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. Rom 14:15
Let not then your good be evil spoken of: Rom 14:16
For the kingdom of God is NOT meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Ro.14:17

How can a Phd claim that the KINGDOM IS meat and drink and a Jewish SACRIFICIAL FEAST with God when Paul said that IT IS NOT? Remember the strong delusion ABSOLUTE LAW?

Righteousness and peace are qualities INTERNAL to the true disciple of Christ. This demands that JOY in the holy spirit means INTERNAL Joy in the internal spirit which is washed and made into A holy spirit only at the time and place of baptism. This baptism proves that we are not APISTOS or a traitor. By rejecting baptism the strong delusionists have NO OTHER CHOICE but to do everything in their little "locust with a scorpion tail's" power to destroy righteousness, destroy peace and destroy the Joy which is a FRUIT of having the Spirit of Christ indwelling by faith. People who don't spend all of their DREAM TEAM time trying to make PEACE and JOY are NOT ACCEPTABLE to God and they assuredly are NOT approved by MEN even if they are approved by the gender-immature:

For he that in THESE THINGS serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. Rom 14:18
Let us therefore follow after the things which make for PEACE, and things wherewith ONE may EDIFY ANOTHER. Rom 14:19

EDIFY means to build up by EDUCATING. Finding hi-tek ways to agitate the nerves, never without a doubt is calculated to DESTROY the education which comes only through the Word.

For MEAT destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offense. Rom 14:20
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Rom 14:21
Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. Rom 14:22
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Rom 14:23

Clement warns us about seeing the AGAPAE as eating food and DAMMING others by stirring up doubt.

These gluttons, surrounded with the sound of hissing frying-pans, and wearing their whole life away at the pestle and mortar, cling to matter like fire. More than that, they emasculate plain food, namely bread, by straining off the nourishing part of the grain, so that the necessary part of food becomes matter of reproach to luxury. There is no limit to epicurism among men. For it has driven them to sweetmeats, and honey-cakes, and sugar-plums; inventing a multitude of desserts, hunting after all manner of dishes. A man like this seems to me to be all jaw, and nothing else.

"Desire not," says the Scripture, "rich men's dainties; " for they belong to a false and base life. They partake of luxurious dishes, which a little after go to the dunghill. But we who seek the heavenly bread must rule the belly, which is beneath heaven, and much more the things which are agreeable to it, which "God shall destroy," says the apostle, justly execrating gluttonous desires.

For "meats are for the belly," for on them depends this truly carnal and destructive life; whence some, speaking with unbridled tongue, dare to apply the name agape, to pitiful suppers, redolent of savour and sauces.

Dishonouring the good and saving work of the Word, the consecrated agape, with pots and pouring of sauce; and by drink and delicacies and smoke desecrating that name, they are deceived in their idea, having expected that the promise of God might be bought with suppers. Gatherings for the sake of mirth, and such entertainments as are called by ourselves, we name rightly suppers, dinners, and banquets, after the example of the Lord.

But such entertainments the Lord has not called agapae.

He says accordingly somewhere, "When thou art called to a wedding, recline not on the highest couch; but when thou art called, fall into the lowest place; " and elsewhere, "When thou makest a dinner or a supper; "and again, "But when thou makest an entertainment, call the poor," for whose sake chiefly a supper ought to be made.

And further, "A certain man made a great supper, and called many." But I perceive whence the specious appellation of suppers flowed: "from the gullets and furious love for suppers"-according to the comic poet.

For, in truth, "to many, many things are on account of the supper."

For they have not yet learned that God has provided for His creature (man I mean) food and drink, for sustenance, not for pleasure; since the body derives no advantage from extravagance in viands.

For, quite the contrary, those who use the most frugal fare are the strongest and the healthiest, and the noblest; as domestics are healthier and stronger than their masters, and husbandmen than the proprietors; and not only more robust, but wiser, as philosophers are wiser than rich men. For they have not buried the mind beneath food, nor deceived it with pleasures.

But love (agape ) is in truth celestial food, the banquet of REASON. "It beareth all things, endureth all things, hopeth all things. Love never faileth." "Blessed is he who shall eat bread in the kingdom of God." But the hardest of all cases is for charity, which faileth not, to be cast from heaven above to the ground into the midst of sauces. And do you imagine that I am thinking of a supper that is to be done away with? "For if," it is said, "I bestow all my goods, and have not love, I am nothing." On this love alone depend the law and the Word; and if "thou shalt love the Lord thy God and thy neighbour," this is the celestial festival in the heavens.

But the earthly is called a supper, as has been shown from Scripture. For the supper is made for love, but the supper is NOT love ( agape ); only a proof of mutual and reciprocal kindly feeling. "Let not, then, your good be evil spoken of; for the kingdom of God is not meat and drink,"

says the apostle, in order that the meal spoken of may not be conceived as ephemeral, "but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost."

He who eats of this meal, the best of all, shall possess the kingdom of God, fixing his regards here on the holy assembly of love, the heavenly Church. Love, then, is something pure and worthy of God, and its work is communication. "And the care of discipline is love,"

as Wisdom says; "and love is the keeping of the law." And these joys have an inspiration of love from the public nutriment, which accustoms to everlasting dainties.

Love (agape ), then, is NOT a supper. But let the entertainment depend on love. For it is said, "Let the children whom Thou hast loved, O Lord, learn that it is not the products of fruits that nourish man; but it is THY WORD which preserves those who believe on Thee." "For the righteous shall not live by bread."

You should understand that it probably isn't possible to build a mega-church, steal people's money and then spit in contempt if the GIVER does NOT give the spendees the AUTHORITY--and God denies them--to PROCURE a new preacher who clearly has bought into the new scheme. You MUST be convinced and warn others that to ask for the TITHE is to Judaize and steal because they are not Levites. To insist on the Law of Giving where you lose control after the money gets to "GOD" is lying about the Bible and stealing from the POOR so they can hire rich bonding buddies to build up the 'priesthood.' The only way you can stop EVIL is to cut off its funds: you are sinning if you are an ENABLER of people who have lost connection to the HEAD and intend to HURT you every time you assemble to hear the Word an are destroyed by listening for the NEXT SHOE to drop. Sooner or later most will WAKE UP but then you have lost the claim to being minimally intelligent.

Ken Sublett

In response to my post, “The Contemporary Worship Leader” (September 21 2004, 2:47 AM), G has provided this site and its readers a very important lesson. The message is brief, but it speaks volumes about “the contemporary ‘Worship Leader’” and the “workshop” in Tulsa [this is Oral Roberts’ backyard—correct?]. One concern I have is that Madison’s “Worship Leader” is everywhere … spreading the good news of religious (holy) entertainment. G is correct.

What would Jesus (or the apostles) say to any worship mis-leader?

The passage in the second chapter of John comes to mind. (If you wish, you could substitute certain words or objects for the same in these verses, e.g., the hypnotic big white screen that displays words to insult those who read notes, rhythmic handclapping, literally “turning [360 degrees]” my mourning into “dancing”—this is a clause in one “praise” song, o-o-o-oink-o-o-o during the Lord’s Supper, the Praise Team, the Worship Leader who leads regular folks into the holy presence of God, his antics on stage, the “charismatic” atmosphere, the solo, duet and other performances, etc., etc.)

[13] And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, [14] And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: [15] And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; [16] And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. (John 2, KJV)
__________________________________

ashamed (October 12 2004, 5:47 PM)

I am from the Tulsa area, and attended the workshop for the first time this past year. Mr. Lancaster was leading singing the night I was there. All I can say is I actualy was embarrased by the actions on stage. I can't for the life of me imagine how our leaders seem to think they are more important than they really are. people a Song leader aka worship leader is not there for our amusement (entertainment) If I wanted to be entertained I would go somewhere else. It is a song leaders job to start the song and get the CONGREGATION into an active worship. It seems like some of these guys think we should just sit back and let them perform. The dancing actualy made me blush in embarasment. I actualy thought to myself Man I hope nobody I know sees me here, and Man I'm glad I didn't invite anyone to go with me to this. What a absolute tragedy.

I'll take my small congregation of singers over you and your praise team any day of the week and twice (literally) on Sunday.

as for those of you who have dealt with these problems on a daily basis. I'm sorry for you, and I pray God gives you strength.

G

__________________________________

Yes sir Tulsa is the base for Mr. Roberts, actualy his son Richard now runs the show at ORU. I can tell you that the Tulsa area has been greatly affected by this influence as their are several "churches" around that sprang from his line of teaching.

However the greatest tragedy is that some of the local "bodies of Christ" have seemed to sway toward some of this style teaching as well.

I will say this the ISWW is something that had a chance to be wonderful, but it was hijacked years ago. I had never gone because I was always told what to expect. I decided that with my maturity I needed to experience this meeting. To see it first hand because to be honest I have been told things before, and found out I disagreed once I actualy experienced them first hand. Unfortunately at the workshop I had just the opposite experience. It was actualy worse than I expected. I really sat in disbelief. I am not sure that me and my wife were not the only ones there not Clapping to the music. I knew some congregations had taken to this, but I didn't realize we were so proud of our singing abilities that we applauded ourselves after each song. Perhaps we were applauding God? I'm really not sure what we were doing.

Jeff Walling was the speaker that night. I must admit he has a wonderful talent. He had me on the edge of my seat. Hanging on his every word. To bad he never used much scripture to back up what he said.

Of course he then butchered Jesus prayer for unity in John 17, by breaking out the now famous quote "throwing a calf rope around all believers" I believe this was not the first time he used that statement as I had read that quote before I heard it this past year. Also Jeff made a point to say he was not really there to push the idea of joining with the Christian church, but then proceeded to say things that seemed to push that very idea.

There were several baptisms that night (which we also applauded?) so there were some good things in that regard.

I don't see myself returning to that mess again. I do wish there was an alternative workshop that brought in SOUND preachers. Perhaps someday Tulsa can once again be looked at as leading the church in a good direction. Just know that there are several congregations around the area still fighting the good fight.

p.s. I really take no pleasure in reporting this, but I feel it is necessary to let others know what really goes on at the workshop.

If you have had the experience of EXPERIENCING a "big gun preacher" several times in a row you will find that they are prett SHALLOW. Therefore, like all theatrical preachers in history they have A SERMON or A MESSAGE and they polish it until you can swallow a sword.

1990: "But assume for just a moment the crazy concept that there may be some folks out in the world who, honest to goodness, love Jesus with all their heart, who would want to give him anything they have in their hands, but for whatever reason they are not fellowshipping in a building that says, 'Church Of Christ' on it. Now, just free your mind up for that bizarre possibility. Now, can you say with me, 'that we may be one'?...Jesus asks that we would throw a calf rope around all of those who just believe in him, and pray, and work, for the unity of all believers" (1990 Tulsa Soul Winning Workshop on a lesson on the Lord's prayer for unity in John 17). When one finally accepts the idea of grace alone salvation, it will not be long till they accept the doctrine of universalism and fellowship everyone.

"Jeff Walling is certainly no stranger to ecumenism and the ecumenical movement of some within our brotherhood. In fact, he is a staunch supporter of it. Brother Walling seems to have difficulty in his exegeses of John chapter 17. From this passage, he believes that all who just believe are brethren and we ought to have unity with them. The following is an excerpt from brother Walling's speech at the Tulsa Soul Winning Workshop in 1991. After reading John 17:20-21, he then has the audience repeat in unison, "That we may be one." Here is the excerpt:

1991 Might be the same??

"Now the problem we got in this auditorium is what you think when you say the word 'we.' You look around and say, 'yea, we, that's O.K.' But what if we weren't here? What if you were gathering where people were sitting next to you didn't go to a church of Christ? They believed in Jesus. They loved the Lord. They have a desire to do what's right. But assume for just a moment that crazy concept that there may be some folks out in the world who, honest to goodness, love Jesus with all their heart, who want to give Him anything they have in their hands, but for whatever reason they are not fellowshipping in a building that says 'Church of Christ' on it.

Now, just free your mind up for that bizarre possibility. Now, can you say with me, 'that we may be one?' The first odd thing I want you to note in the text is what Jesus doesn't say when He says 'they.'

He doesn't say that 'the Church-of-Christers might be one.' Who does He ask would be united, would be one? 'I pray for those who will go to church?' No, no, no. 'I pray for those who will be baptized?' Oddly enough, 'I pray for those who will believe in Me.'

Now, folks, I don't want to break anybody's back as you try to bend over and go with me. But I want you to wrestle with the fact that the text says, 'believers.' Those who say, 'yes', Jesus is the Christ. Yes, he is divine, Yes, He is Lord.'

Now I don't know whether the folks that who put the workshop together had this in mind. I should ask Jay, did you have this in mind? I don't know whether they did or not. But I will tell what: in order to preach the text, we can't get into this lesson without appreciating the fact that Jesus asks that we throw a calf rope around all those who just believe in Him, and pray, and work, for the unity of all believers."

http://tcchurchofchrist.org/Articles%20Archive/Concerned%20for%20our%20youth.htm

When I think of CALF I think of GOLDEN. When I think of ROPE I think of JUDAS. Any Bible student knows that Jeff is chanting the mantra of something but it IS NOT the Christian church. He is a dramatic actor.

No one ever accused Jeff of being a Bible reader. Ken

I agree with you completely on “the greatest tragedy.” Certain congregations of the church have already succumbed to the “Community Church” and/or “Charismatic” and other movements. These congregations have already drunk the Rick Warren Koolaid, and they obviously like the “purpose-driven” flavor. In fact, these same congregations, including Madison, use either or both of Rick’s “purpose driven” manuals as their “Bible class” textbooks. Watch out! Rick Warren of the Saddleback Community Church in California (16,000-member) is being emulated by the change agents operating in the brotherhood. These change agents have already implemented the “church growth” scheme in some of the churches. Have you heard of Max Lucado, Rubel Shelly, Rick Atchley, Jeff Walling, Joe Beam and others? Mark them, brethren! It’s also tragic that we have to “mark them,” but it is a scriptural command!

In regard to your experience at the workshop, I love the way you phrased the following: “… but I didn't realize we were so proud of our singing abilities that we applauded ourselves after each song. Perhaps we were applauding God?” I might add, “Perhaps we were applauding the Worship Leader? Perhaps we were applauding the Praise Team?”

These leaders are getting “ecumenism” [aimed at universal Christian unity among different religious denominations]—which has never been achievable—confused with “unity” in the body or church of Christ. “Joining with the Christian Church” has been attempted before. It has never worked—the Christian Church has become a full-blown denomination. To the change agents, however, the attempt may be successful if the New Testament church of Christ becomes a denomination. And would you believe that one of their objectives is simply to change the mindset that the NT church is just another denomination?

At the rate the Tulsa Workshop is going, I doubt seriously that “SOUND preachers” will be brought in next time around. Remember the “purpose driven” flavor I described earlier? Sadly, I expect a “new and improved purpose driven” flavor in the future.

G, thanks for your input. I concur—like you, I take no pleasure in reporting anything. But you’re doing great service by helping us warn congregations that have not yet been infected with this dreadful spiritual disease.

Donnie

I sure hope some will listen to what I have shared. I know many people think "oh it's just them old people don't like change" Well let it be known I don't consider myself to be old. Mid 20's is young (I hope). You see I didn't attend church anywhere (yes I had gone a handful of times, but never actualy had a "church home") until I was about 19 years old. When I started looking for somewhere to belong I wanted someplace sincere. I found a nice congregation that took me in. They taught me. They showed me love, and even though there were not many people my age I loved it there. It seems some are in it for the wrong reason. It seems for many it's all about them, and not about God. My request is before you do something ask yourself is this pleasing me or is this pleasing God. Make sure God is who you please.

-----Original Message-----
From: _____ _______ [_____________________]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 12:38 PM
To: donniecruz@msn.com
Subject: Wednesday Nights and Drama

Donnie,

I was out of town, but apparently a controversy is swarming over a drama on a Wednesday night in October. It was a woman speaking to God in a prayer, and God was apparently talking back to her or answering her.

The problem, as I understand it, is a couple of things—(1) a woman on stage by herself, and then (2) the idea of God speaking out loud to us.

There was a play in September, as well, on a Wednesday night.

Then, this past Sunday, there was a class downstairs (Homebuilders) that was almost all drama.

Perhaps this is now a monthly occurrence?

More of the Saddleback Community Church “imitation flavor” and influence?

We'll see.

______________________________

Note: Be assured that the church leadership is searching for answers to offset the adverse effects of the implemented Saddleback “church growth” methodologies. Unfortunately, “numerical church growth” [the scheme’s main objective] has not been evident since the upheaval in early 2001 that reduced the membership in half.

If it is not about the “Worship Leader” and his choreographed “musical worship” program, it is about drama in the assembly of the saints or it is about certain church doctrines that are not Scripture-based. Just as Scripture-based hymns have been trashed [an insult to those who can read music notes] so that minds can be directed to the big white screen for the display of Christian rock-originated “praise” songs, “drama” has arrived in Bible classes for adults. No … drama is NOT an insult to the intelligence of the Homebuilders attendants—real and in-depth study of the Scriptures can be boring, and a little entertainment (“Bible Study Made Easy for Dummies”) should compensate for the boredom.

Donnie

-----Original Message-----
From: _____ _______ [_____________________]
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 10:16 AM
To: donniecruz@msn.com
Subject: Re: Wednesday Nights and Drama

Donnie,

They did it again last night. It was drama night. "The Twilight Zone" was the drama—replete with a video introduction like the TV show. The productions seem to be getting larger and larger.

So, this is at least three months in a row for the Wednesday night drama. Apparently, there are two or three people that are heading these up … the same names. The same individuals are seen virtually each time in the plays and videos. How can this be worship?

(Signed)
________________________

Note: It may not be a bad idea to extend a special, personal invitation to Rick Warren of the Saddleback Community Church (CA) as guest speaker or lecturer. After all, the congregation’s leadership—whatever or however that is comprised of now—has learned firsthand much about the Warren Doctrine … since some of the men have visited the Saddleback compound. Has the Wednesday night group run out of study materials? Has the group completed an exhaustive study of the entire Bible that it now has to resort to “fresher” study materials?

But, again, drama is entertaining—right! Have they considered some of the Hollywood stars performing? Wait … uh … Jeff Walling would be the perfect executive drama producer. Background:

“Walling [senior minister at Providence, NC] earned his Bachelor's degree from the University of California at Irvine in speech and communications with an emphasis in theatre; his graduate level work in religion has been at Pepperdine University, Malibu. Jeff served as the president and founder of Western Christian Ministries which produces inspirational video and audio series used by churches and schools nationwide.” His book: “Daring to Dance with God.” (cf. http://prcoc.org/Walling.htm)

Caution: The leadership of the congregation is still “learning under the influence” [L.U.I.] … according to plan.