Dan (Login dan3093) from IP address 65.114.121.182
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
I have previously posted on this forum, on Sept 23rd under the topic "Is Worship Entertainment." I know this is lengthy, but please take the time to read the following message, as there is much to learn from it.
"Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
I was on the web and did a search for "church of Christ" and found a line to the Madison church's website. I am both pleased and displeased with what I have seen.
In this avenue of web forums, people can leave comments (positive or negative) on any subject they see fit. Then, when someone goes off on a tangent, it takes a lengthy response to correct the issue according to the Scriptures.
To give some background, I was baptized into the family of believers 8 years ago, after being raised in a Catholic family. I have been encouraged and uplifted by spending time in God's Word, which is able to build us up and put aside falsehood.
I am troubled to see God's Word to be compromised in any way. I have been reading many such cases in these forums, and I pray that God would reveal this to those who lack understanding of His will.
My concern is that we stay focused in these discussions. The test for valid discussions can be this simple:
1. Does this discussion give glory to God?
2. Are we able to build others up in the love of Christ by this discussion?
3. Is God's Word (from Scripture) upheld in this discussion?
If the discussion strays from these 3, we should avoid it.
Please consider 1 Peter chapter 1:3-7:
3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
I am not saying that we should remain silent. Too many Christians will not speak up for God! I am simply saying that we need to "steer" our discussions back to the cross, back to the mutual edification of the body. We are one body, with many parts. (Read 1 Cor 12: verses 12-27) Especially note verse 27: "Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it."
God must be glorified by each member of the body. Though different members of the body may disagree on many "trivial" points, we must still function as one body, for the sake of serving Christ!
Concerning Christ, "For He himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility" (Eph 2:14)
Please, let us all emphasize on reading and studying God's word, building one another up in love.
I'll close with some words of Paul (by the Spirit) to the Ephesians:
2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:2-6)
God Bless! You are in my prayers! " .....
I had one response to this message, from Donnie Cruz (Please read):
"Dan,
Yours is a great story. An unusual one in that it is often difficult for a Catholic to look beyond the Catechism and the papacy in order to see the truth that is revealed in the Holy Scripture. I admire you for having come to know the truth that brought you to becoming a Christian and a disciple of Christ. Now, you are admonishing fellow Christians towards mutual edification. Your statement deserves respect because that is exactly what the New Testament is teaching believers in Christ.
You said, “I am troubled to see God's Word to be compromised in any way. I have been reading many such cases in these forums, and I pray that God would reveal this to those who lack understanding of His will.”
I totally agree with you that God’s Word is not to be compromised at all. It is troubling when compromising the truth occurs. I sense that in your statement. It is also troubling to those of us who use this vehicle of communication to warn other congregations of the dangers of compromising the truth. It is my hope that when you said, “I have been reading many such cases [of compromising God’s Word],” that you have been able to differentiate those who do from those who do not. [You did not cite a single example.] If you feel that there are instances where we have compromised the truth, I’m sorry for that—as to compromise the truth is never our intent. In fact, it is the other way around. This site honestly and strongly believes that it is the change agents operating in the brotherhood of believers who are compromising the truth. Otherwise, there would be no reason for this site to exist. We are, indeed, warning congregations to desist the efforts of the change agents whose main objective is to compromise the truth in order to achieve their goal of “growing the church by whatever means,” even if it is contrary to God’s pattern and will.
I can see your concern that “we stay focused in these discussions.” I can also see the questions you posed that serve as the “test for valid discussions.” I would like to point out, though, that this website is not a church where it assembles for mutual edification. Having said that, it is our hope, however, that congregations of the Lord’s church are able to see that churches of Christ remain united in their efforts to stamp out the efforts of change agents who are more interested in the numerical growth of the church than in remaining as loyal and true believers, advocates and supporters of the truth.
Dan, we thank you for your message.
Donnie"
Before I comment on what Donnie has said, I'd like to give you some more background. Not only was I converted 8 years ago, I have had the privilege of being a part of a faithful gathering of the body for this time. In our town of about 25,000 we have a church of 100+ members. These men and women have a common desire to edify the body WITHOUT compromising the Truth in God's Word. We do not include instrumental music in our worship, and we do not have a choir or "praise team." We have 3 godly elders, 7 godly deacons, and so many other faithful members who truly understand how to live as the Family of God. I cannot describe what a blessing this is!
This is why I plead with you to end the foolish arguments that Christians should not be a part of. When a posting becomes personal, aimed at an individual instead of a problem, it harbors resentment, and has no part in edification. I will remain generic in this statement so that you may look within your own heart to be convicted of these matters. Remember, the root of mutual edification is to "bear with one another in LOVE." Eph 4:2
From what I have seen on this forum, Donnie is working very hard to sort out many difficult issues that face the Madison church. He does not attack individuals, but speaks about "stamping out the efforts of change agents." Make no mistake, as soon as we depart from God's Word, even a little, Satan has now entered the church. And he will not give up until he has eaten away the foundation of truth.
Again, I plead with you to make every effort toward mutual edification and peace. For what do we assemble to do? To honor God and to worship Him as He has commanded us. Again, let's consider what our focus is: CHRIST!! "For He himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility" (Eph 2:14)
There was a great dividing wall between Jew and Gentile before the death of Christ. However, this wall was lifted by His hand!! The dividing wall that now divides the Madison church may ALSO be lifted by his hand!!
I was concerned to see this statement toward the end of Donnie's response:
"I would like to point out, though, that this website is not a church where it assembles for mutual edification."
Though it may appear that this is the case, we should NEVER underestimate the power of God!! Through much prayer and through HIS strength, there is no limit to what God can do!! I have not given up on the Madison church, even though I see that these "change agents" have taken root. God may have a plan to restore the Madison church, and we who uphold the law of Christ must be bold enough to be the servant God intends us to be.
May God convict us all of our wrongdoings so that our eyes may be open to His perfect will! And may He forgive us our sins, that we may go on to fight the spiritual battle that faces us in this life.
May God Bless you ALL in your search for truth. You are dearly loved. You are in our prayers.
“[17] Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. [18] For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. [19] For your obedience is come abroad unto all men.” (Romans 16, KJV)
”[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: [16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.” (Ephesians 4, KJV)
“[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. … [20] Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, [21] (Touch not; taste not; handle not; [22] Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? (Colossians 2, KJV)
[1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; [2] Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. [3] As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, [4] Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. … [8] But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; [9] Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane … [10] … and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine …. (I Timothy 1, KJV)
“[1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; [2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; [3] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. … [6] If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. [7] But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. … [13] Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. … [16] Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
[1] Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. … [3] If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; [4] He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, [5] Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. [I Timothy 6, KJV]
[14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; [15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. [II Timothy 3, KJV]
”[2] Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. [3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; [4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. [5] But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.” [2 Tim. 4, KJV]
[6] If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. [7] For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; [8] But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; [9] Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. [10] For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: [11] Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
[1] But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: … [7] In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, … [10] Not purloining [taking or carrying away for one’s self], but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn [show its effect or influence] the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.. [Hebrews 13:9, KJV]
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed. [II John 1:9,10, KJV]
This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!
...........................THE BOOK
What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?
There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.
This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison
Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource
references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least
you will recognize the signs early on.
Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't
know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.
Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was
one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.
It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of
it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word
of Jesus Christ.
At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority
of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly
realm.
They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and
to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.
The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan.
Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books,
seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change
so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....
At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to
be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched
through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the
"Community Church Movement"
Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready,
or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the
plans very nature, it had to be secret.
The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was
never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last
15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.
The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the
elders went along unwittingly.
This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell
something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill
in some of the timeline.
To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the
background materials in the first of the book.
This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be
printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our
web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison
Here is the list of players;
5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten
commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)