February 2001

Most Madison Church of Christ members were oblivious to this article, “More Holyroller Influence at Madison” in the February "Plumbline Newsletter" which quotes the "Madison Marcher.”

The third worship service at Madison is to be held at the same time as the 10:30 a.m. worship. The "atmosphere will be more conducive to non-Christians. Many “unchurched” people are intimidated by a more formal atmosphere...." The worship affair will be an effort "...to make it easier for people with no church background to feel comfortable.... More time will be given to singing and communion... The sermons will not be as long as what we are used to. There is no question that God is working among our church family. He recognized our suppressed capacity to love…. Attendance for this first Sunday was 538 souls." Jim Hinkle said, "We will not be still, we will not be quiet."

February 2001

The elders announced that a "Third Contemporary" service that they had previously formed was going to be melted into the 10:00 a.m. or second service.

This announcement established a "contemporary service" at 10:00 AM and the 8:00 AM service remained unchanged. While making this announcement, Elder Buck Dozier said the Fire Marshal’s office had said there were too many people in the third service for the size of the auditorium. Since Buck is the past Fire Chief, one has to wonder if this was just a staged excuse to proceed with what was already planned.

February 25, 2001

Tom Haddon is instructing his "Homebuilders" class on how to transition the church members over to the ways of the Saddleback Community Church and that of "Holy Entertainment." He talks about the well laid plans that only a few know about. See the transcript of February 25th class.

March 2001

Praise teams, hand clapping, and raised hands during prayer have been introduced at the second service. Children’s Sunday school has been changed from Bible-based to more entertainment and singing. Young women teaching Sunday school to baptized young men.

April 13, 2001

The elders respond to a NewsChannel5 report about growing controversy at the Madison Church of Christ. They send out a LETTER to 683 Churches of Christ in the Channel 5 viewing area.

"The controversy seems to be over-reaction to change. The main things we have done in the 10:30 service are introduce more upbeat praise songs, give less time to the sermon, and give greater emphasis to the Lord's Supper. This embraces a more contemporary format, of course, but we don't feel that it departs from scriptural worship."

See ConcernedMembers’ Letter to the Elders of 683 Churches of Christ.

April 22, 2001

In this meeting on April 22, 2001 the deacons ask the elders, “What is going on?” On May 02,2001 the Elders reply in a letter. Here Are the Questions and the Elders’ Answers

May 2001

Concerned members receive a copy of a rough draft of a "Covenant of Membership" that was supposedly written by Elder Buck Dozier. Mr. Dozier admitted "playing" around with one when contacted.

The concern about a "Covenant of Membership" is that it's one of the hallmark signs of a "Community Church" like Saddleback. They are generally written in such a way to assure that the membership can't take over the "community church" like they took over your church.

July 2001

According to THIS ARTICLE in the Tennessean, the elders bring in a mediator (Larry Sullivan) to help with the split within the church. We understand that Buck Dozier met Mr. Sullivan while attending a "seminar." Meetings are set up for the elders—we understand they had to swear to secrecy. Meetings are set up for the members to discuss their objections to the split contemporary and traditional services.

It's later shown by the ConcernedMembers that LARRY SULLIVAN is not an unbiased mediator. He has direct ties to the Saddleback organization. He is trained in using the HEGELIAN DIALECTIC techniques to compromise a groups consensus in whatever direction is predetermined.

Mid-August, 2001

By this time many members have left the Church. The unpaid volunteer minister on this particular Sunday abruptly left before giving his sermon at the second service. He was allowed only the last 6 minutes of worship time by the “worship leader.” Sometime during this period, Buck Dozier appeared in Bill Ruhl's adult class to take over. Bill Ruhl's absence was unexplained to the class.

August 29, 2001

Concerned members send out 2500 ballots and a LETTER asking for church members to indicate on the ballot the type of church service format they wanted. All ballots were to be received by September 20, 2001. Threatening phone calls are received by the contractor hired by ConcernedMembers to do the mailing (August 30, 2001). Other notes not full of brotherly love are received by mail. Ballots from ConcernedMembers mailing are tabulated, and totals posted along with a FINAL REPORT (September 15, 2001)

September 23, 2001

The members have been waiting on an announcement from the elders regarding the future format of services at the Madison Church of Christ. Today (09-23-01) that announcement was made.

EVERYTHING WILL REMAIN AS IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

September 30, 2001 (Sunday)

Larry Sullivan was Guest Speaker! (The Unbiased Mediator)

October 11, 2001 (Thursday)

Deacons had a special meeting with an attendance of over 100 concerned members and deacons. Petitions were given out to collect signatures—to dismiss “the elders that have split the Madison Church of Christ.” Petitions are due to be turned in by Wednesday the 17th.

October 14, 2001 (Sunday)

Frank Scott delivered his first in a series of talking head animated and canned sermons. Sometime during this period, two elders resigned—J.D. Elliott and Bobby McElhiney.

October 17, 2001 (Wednesday)

A member reported that Wednesday night when she inquired at the help desk as to where she should turn in her petitions, she was told by the lady: "Over there with the trouble makers … they are the mafia." Sometime during this period two more elders talked about resigning! No confirmation of that as of today.

October 21, 2001 (Sunday)

Sermon—Second in a three-part series of Frank Scott being a talking head for a canned and animated sermon on joy and entertainment. The words "corporate worship" and joy and entertainment were used extensively. Interesting!

Deacons—The deacons, headed by Ben Jones, nicely and in a very godly way asked the leaders to step down and let the church elect new leadership. (Complete transcript is available.)

October 24, 2001 (Wednesday)

”Elders and Deacons” meeting tonight! We understand that the 7 or 8 elders that have caused a split at Madison Church of Christ have been formally asked to step down or be disfellowshipped.

October 25, 2001 (Thursday)

”Saddleback Planters” meeting tonight! Talked about rebuking Ben Jones Sunday!

To rebuke is to criticize or reprove sharply; to reprimand.
To reprove is to criticize for a fault or misdeed; to scold.
To rebuke or reprove Ben Jones, then, Ben Jones must have done a misdeed.
To define that misdeed, those who will rebuke him must find applicable scriptures.

What Ben did was to give each and every Madison Church of Christ member an opportunity to ask for forgiveness or repentance for causing division or for allowing division to occur.

October 26, 2001 (Friday)

Flash message coming in the next 72 hours from the ConcernedMembers!

October 28, 2001 (Sunday)

T H E...M A D I S O N...C H U R C H...O F...C H R I S T...H A S...B E E N...H I J A C K E D ! !

Today, according to an announcement made by everyone's favorite elder, Russ Kersten, the church has been hijacked by all the concerned members, deacons and I guess that includes the 5 elders that have been holding out against them. … Is “hijack” a chargeable offense in the church?

October 29, 2001 (Monday)

We received a copy of a letter sent to the deacons. And we felt compelled to reply. ConcernedMembers announced future plans (10/30/01). The server for this web page has recorded 22,645 page views since its creation 8 weeks ago (11/1/01).

November 2, 2001

Transcript of Homebuilders Sunday School class—a recording of Tom Haddon on how to transition the congregation to Saddleback and Holy Entertainment in Homebuilders Class (available under Interviews & Transcripts).

November 4, 2001

J.R. Compton and wife, members at Madison Church of Christ for 58 years, came before congregation to ask for forgiveness and ask to have their names removed as members.

November 7, 2001

Interview with Gary McDade of the Getwell Church of Christ in Memphis, TN. Discussion concerning the takeover of churches by the "Community Church" movement and the embracement of this movement by many of the Christian colleges.

November 9, 2001

Two different sources say Bruce White has been hired as a new minister.

November 20, 2001

ConcernedMembers retract a letter sent by the elders to 683 churches of Christ.

November 21, 2001

Email from J.E. Choate—“And also another personal evaluation is that Buck Dozier should be the first to leave the Madison eldership. His qualifications for the work is moot at best. His past shows that he is no stranger to igniting church fires with no solutions."

November 28, 2001

The Book: What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?
http://www.concernedmembers.com/thebook/

December 02, 2001

Bruce White appears to have been warmly welcomed as new minister at the Madison Church of Christ. First sermon was about the degrees of love. It appears that the “Praise Team” and their microphones have been turned off in the second service for the time being.

December 18, 2001

Fundraising letter sent out by the Church. Student ministry letter to former members (12/19/01).

January 20, 2002 (Sunday)

Rumor says there is a new group forming called "The PeaceMakers." Their training is probably coming from PEPPERDINE.

January 21, 2002 (Monday)

Letter sent by Donnie Cruz to the elders and other people about the crisis at Madison. The Christian Chronicle publishes article about Madison Church of Christ (01/21/02).

February 4, 2002 (Monday)

We understand that Buck has presented the members of “The Peacemakers" with a list of 192 reasons churches split. We wonder if pagan worship practices were on the list?

February 6, 2002 (Wednesday)

Big flare-up at church Wednesday night. We understand 4 or 5 of the good and godly elders have resigned, leaving the church under the control of the clapper and Saddleback crowd.

February 9, 2002 (Saturday)

After the resignation of two elders last year, Madison Church of Christ was left with 13 elders: Bill Bennett, Dale Bishop, John Broadway, Joe Corley, Buck Dozier, Chris Gingles, Howard Henderson, Tommy Hoppes, Russ Kersten, Charles Link, Ken Rice, Norman Slate, Ray Wilson. Five of these elders had been opposed to the "praise teams" and clapping which had permeated the second service since last February 2001. This was when Elder Buck Dozier first announced the decision to turn the new third service loose on the second service. The five elders that were opposed we believe were: Joe Corley, Bill Bennett, Dale Bishop, Norman Slate, and Charles Link.

It's understood Tom Haddon and about 200 of his followers threatened to leave sometime ago when the praise teams were stopped. It's understood that Chris Gingles encouraged them to stay and fight it out. Recently the Haddon followers put the push back on to bring back the praise teams, through the elders they control. It's understood that the elders had become rather hostile toward each other, and when this push came again, then 4 of the 5 elders resigned. Charles Link was out of town, and it is assumed he will resign when he returns.

Quote as told to Bobby M. Johnson by one of the elders: "... told me that there had been a recent meeting of the 10:30 AM crowd including Chris Gingles’ and Tom Haddon's followers and they said they would never leave. So that with the push to return to the praise teams and the microphones was the “last straw."

The 5 elders had already decided to resign if the “winds of change” didn't subside. So that's that! 3 of these elders also announced that they would probably be attending church at other locations sometime in the future. [No one here blames them, and we can only try to imagine the pain they have been put through. We are sure that like many of us they were unable to continue to worship in that building.]

HAS GOD LEFT THE BUILDING?

ConcernedMembers announce statewide newspaper advertising campaign

February 10, 2002 (Sunday)

Sunday Services reviewed by Donnie Cruz [see earlier “Timeline”]

February 11, 2002 (Monday)

We at ConcernedMembers have been told that when the 4 elders resigned, that they were assured that their letter would be read to the congregation. Well, as you are probably aware ... not only did their letter not get read, there was also no mention of their resignation, other than a little blip in the Marcher. We have been promised a copy of this letter, and we intend to post it on the web as soon as we get it up.

The Elders’ Resignation Letter Is Here [see earlier “Timeline”]

February 2-17, 2002

Announcement by the Elders [see earlier “Timeline”]

March 1, 2002

The Trap Has Been Set at the Madison Church of Christ [see earlier “Timeline”]

In the February 20, 2002 Madison Marcher, statement made by the elders February 17, 2002:

4. "We believe that there can be unity in diversity and will continue to employ two styles of worship services."

March 10, 2002 (Sunday)

Screen presentation of the elders [6 have already resigned] and their length of service helps Donnie Cruz to figure it out:

(1) John Broadway ...... since 1998
(2) Buck Dozier ........ since 1996
(3) Chris Gingles ...... since 1998
(4) Howard Henderson ... since 1999
(5) Tommy Hoppes ....... since 1999
(6) Russ Kersten ....... since 1992
(7) Charles Link ....... since 1978
(8) Ken Rice ........... since 1989
(9) Ray Wilson ......... since 1992

(Most of the Remaining Elders Are ... That Explains It! [see earlier “Timeline”])

March 24, 2002 (Sunday)

Charismatic Contemporary Style Continues: March 24, 2002 [see earlier “Timeline”]

I don’t believe it is all right to be singing “It’s All Right” when the church is not united in spirit because of what this worship facilitation program has done to begin with. It is NOT ALL RIGHT when the body of Christ is suffering….

March 31, 2002

SUNDAY SERVICES—“Easter"

Notes from the “Madison Marcher” (Wednesday, March 27, 2002):

Bruce White: “We are going to have a great day next Sunday. It is Easter, and we [are] looking for a large crowd. I especially want to see the children in the colorful clothes.” Of the “Great Day in May” (May 5): “… will have a big lunch under the tent at 12:00. One of our choruses will entertain at 1:30.”

May 19-26, 2002; June 2, 2002

Changes Continue At Madison [see earlier Timeline]

(1) the present deacons will be interviewed by the elders and new deacons will be named; (2) there will be additional elders to be selected; (3), the "love feast" -- and it's only "fitting" -- is to follow the Lord's Supper; (4) Canaan's Land is moving; (5) the "praise team" will be reinstated in the early part of July.

June 23, 2002 (Sunday)

ELDER CHARLES LINK RESIGNS, and more!

August 1, 2002

Is There a Tithing Pledge in Madison's Future? Donnie Cruz reports, there could be!

September 1, 2002 (Sunday)

Small Groups, Living Stones, or Prayer Circles?

October 27, 2002

TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests

We are continuing to monitor the progress of the tithing campaign at Madison as taught by Dr. White, based on the tithing manual (“Take God at His Word”) written by Dr. Kregg Hood. Is the truth about tithing (equals 10%) continuing to be perverted as a CARRY-OVER and as a PERPETUAL command from the Old Testament for New Testament Christians? Since Dr. White proclaimed his message in August 2002 that we TITHE to TEST God and to let Him give the increase, we will be referring to the following amounts collected as being “TITHED”:

==================================================================
Church Budget ----------------- 47,143 (2001) ---- 38,000 (2002)
Children’s Home ---------------- 5,400 (2001) ----- 4,021 (2002)
Amazing Grace/CPI -------------- 3,000 (2001) ----- 1,539 (2002)
==================================================================
TOTAL BUDGET---- -------------- 55,543 (2001) ---- 43,560 (2002)
==================================================================
------------- (Sermons on “TITHING” in August 2002) ------------

November 7, 2002

Transcription of Bruce White's Sermon on Tithing [see earlier Timeline]

VOTE:
Would you be willing to sign a Tithing Pledge?
Would you be willing to sign a Church Oath or Covenant?

January 5, 2003 (Sunday)

DRAMA MINISTRY KICKOFF JANUARY 19 (by Kelley Hughes, Madison Marcher)

Drama is nothing new at Madison Church of Christ. From the Summer Spectaculars to Canaan’s Land … we have a long and great tradition of using drama to touch the lives of our members and visitors…. So Jesus himself used A TYPE OF THEATRE to help get his point across…. You may know of someone who is “UNCHURCHED” … The Drama Ministry kickoff meeting will be on January 19 at 5 p.m. in the Fellowship Hall.

April 13, 2003 (Sunday)

EASTER SUNDAY IN “CANAAN’S LAND” (Madison Marcher: April 9, 2003)

Easter Sunday is very special to all of us. For the last ten years in Canaan’s Land, we’ve used our time together on that Sunday to reenact the last week in the life of Jesus…. Responsibilities will range from … to dressing kids to assisting at the various story “sets” (e.g., HELPING SERVE CHILDREN BREAD AND GRAPE JUICE DURING THE LAST SUPPER [emphasis, d.c.]). All of us will celebrate Communion together as we reenact the LORD sharing it with His apostles and telling them its meaning.

(On May 19, 2003, Chris: “I received a copy of the CD that has the worship service from "Easter" on it. It was given to me by a member of the production crew there. … Was there any preaching? Or just reading?” Jeremy responded: “I do agree with what has been said about the Easter service. It definitely was a show. And most of the people I've talked to about that service say the same thing….”

May 12, 2003 (Monday)

Madison Church of Christ, Incorporated: ONE YEAR LATER

Annual Membership Meeting (Madison Marcher, Vol. 52, No. 19, May 7, 2003):

Because Madison Church of Christ is now incorporated, we are required to have an annual membership meeting. This meeting will be on Wednesday, June 4, 2003, at 6 p.m. in the Auditorium for the transaction of such business as may come before the meeting.

June 4, 2003

Madison Marcher (6/4/03) announces: “Broadway Resigns From Eldership.” Ken Rice, May Chairman of the Eldership, said, “It is with great regret that we have received the resignation of John Broadway. Here is his statement:”

After much prayer and deliberation over the past several weeks, I have decided to submit my resignation from the eldership of the Madison Church of Christ….

June 19, 2003

A comparative analysis of statistics from the 2003 publication of “Churches of Christ in the United States,” compiled by Mac Lynn. The counts, based on the reported numbers in 2002, consist of: (1) membership [assumedly “baptized” believers], (2) average worship attendance, (3) adherents [including children?]. Please notice MCC’s staggering data.

---------------------------------------- Members/Attendance/Adherents
Goodlettsville Church of Christ ---------- 490 ----- 685 ----- 770
Hendersonville Church of Christ --------- 1557 ---- 1323 ---- 2105
Woodmont Hills Church of Christ(*)------- 1660 ---- 2300 ---- 2500
Madison Church of Christ ---------------- 3142 ---- 1786 ---- 4730
Richland Hills Church of Christ, TX ----- 4450 ---- 3700 ---- 5240

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(*) Not listed as “Woodmont Hills Family of God” in the directory
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 23, 2003

Madison Marcher: “We are expanding the leadership of this great church.

Terry Ashley,
Mark Street,
Phil Coats

are being added to the eldership today. We are so pleased to see this number grow and expect to be able to service more effectively with these men in place.”

August 6, 2003

Madison Marcher: “The Madison Church of Christ has always had a heart for children and will continue to respond to, assist, and nurture children. We have our camp, youth activities, classes, and other programs for children … Morning Star Sanctuary…. So, we need to support all of these activities through our Sunday School Contribution. The Childcare program … however, will be closed. The State of Tennessee Children’s Services has altered the approach to childcare….”

August 13, 2003

Madison Marcher: “The shepherds are planning a new vision for Madison. They will be listening for awhile and then formulating what the Spirit leads them to envision for this church. Your prayers are earnestly solicited.”

September 3, 2003

Madison Marcher: “We want to encourage both 8:00 and 10:30 services. You will see the designation “traditional” and “contemporary” on our sign and in publication to inform the community of a choice. We hope that both times will see increase in attendance and involvement.” . . . “CALLING ALL SINGERS! The Worship and Music ministry is looking for additional singers. We are especially in need of male singers….” [also appeared in the next 2 weeks].

September 17, 2003

Madison Marcher: “Check your Saturday newspaper and find our new advertisement! . . . ||EVERY SUNDAY||--||Traditional Worship 8:00 am||--||Sunday School 9:30 am||--||Contemporary Worship 10:30 am||--||Evening Worship 6:00 pm|| . . . ||Pulpit Minister, Dr. C. Bruce White||--||Worship Minister, Keith Lancaster||”

September 28, 2003

The message on this Sunday was “Worthy of Double Honor.” It had been announced: “We are planning a very special day on September 28. We will be honoring our shepherds that day.” Former elders (J.D. Elliott, Bobby McElhiney, Charles Link, etc., with their wives) were honored first; current elders, with their wives, were also honored.

October 8, 2003

Madison Marcher: “Please pray for our shepherds. These men are going through some very trying meetings right now. The future of this congregation is weighing heavy on their hearts as they seek the Spirit’s guidance. They need your support and encouragement.”

December 15, 2003

A special e-mail has been received: “… I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic ‘worship services.’ I quit going to Tulsa due to this. ...”

December 17, 2003

Madison Marcher: “Keith Lancaster will be taking a sabbatical from Madison for the next several months to spend more time with Acappella. We wish him well and look forward to his return!”

February 4, 2004

Madison Marcher: “A WORD FROM THE SHEPHERDS”

Shepherds’ Vision 2004: The shepherds have spent the last several months focusing on prayer and preparation of a course for the church family at Madison. … We will maintain a traditional worship style in our 8:00 service on Sunday morning and a contemporary style of worship at 10:30. We are interested in accommodating a worship style which connects the worshipper with the Creator … The elders have implemented a functional change in their roles as shepherds. An Elders Administrative Committee composed of … and Buck Dozier, in conjunction with the Business Manager, will handle day-to-day administrative details. The remaining elders will give their “attention to prayer and the ministry of the Word.” The goal of the elders is to “smell like sheep.” … The Deacons Administrative Committee….

We will be searching for a pulpit minister, as Dr. White enters partial retirement. He will continue to work on staff in other ministries. We look for a long relationship with him and Judy.

We will be looking for anew youth minister to lead our program of developing our young people into leaders for tomorrow.

February 18, 2004

“A Little Flavor of Rick Warren’s Saddleback Community Church-ism”—the following was advertised in the Madison Marcher:

27th Ladies Renewal (April 16th-17th, 2004) in Cadiz, KY—

Come share the Love of Our Lord and your sisters in Christ.
”The Purpose Driven Life”
We will use the book by Rick Warren as we study God’s Word

March 10, 2004

Interactive EASTER drama worship—Dr. White announces change in schedule: The drama presentation on “Easter Sunday” will no longer be an event in the “traditional” worship—it will be performed only during the “contemporary” worship.

March 23, 2004

• Announcement on the Church Sign: WORSHIP WITH US EASTER APRIL 11, 8 & 10:30 A.M. … EASTER PASSION WORSHIP DRAMA AT 10:30 A.M.
  
  
• Easter Worship Drama (Madison Marcher, March 17, 2004). “ . . . Easter Sunday [emphasis here and elsewhere, dc] is always a special time at Madison—but this year, April 11th is going to be unlike any worship experience we’ve ever shared together. During our 10:30 service [wonder why not at 8:00 am, dc], the story of Christ’s last hours—culminating in His Crucifixion and Resurrection—will be presented in the form of an interactive worship drama.
  
  Everyone is encouraged to attend this special time of worship
  

April 5, 2004

• FRONT PAGE re “EASTER SUNDAY PASSION DRAMA”: (MADISON MARCHER, March 31, 2004). “ . . . Experience much of the excitement next week as our Easter Sunday Passion Drama plays out at the 10:30 service [wonder why not at 8:00 am, dc] . . . We’ll join Jesus and His apostles in the upper room where we, as a congregation, will celebrate the Lord’s Supper. … This promises to be a very moving, powerful retelling of the Easter Story….”
  
  Calendar: April 11 (Sunday—Easter) … Easter Worship Drama … 10:30 a.m.— ”The story of Christ’s last hours culminating in His Crucifixion and Resurrection will be presented in the form of an interactive worship drama.
  

April 12, 2004

Jim Morris, who began serving as an elder at the same time with Pat Burch and Marty Rothschild in September, 2002, made the following announcement in the Madison Marcher (Vol. 53, No. 13, April 7, 2004), “Statement to Madison Church:” This is not the time for me to serve this body as an elder.

The Preacher Potpourri column in the Madison Marcher has announced the following (4.21.04): “We are adding more elders. We want you to submit names to help in the process. Think through your selections, write his name or names on a piece of paper, and share it with one of our shepherds.”

June 9, 2004

Russ Kersten retires from eldership (Madison Marcher reports).

June 16, 2004

Ray Wilson retires from eldership (Madison Marcher reports).

There were 15 elders at the end of September 2001—10 of whom have resigned since. Is this report . . . troubling?

J.D. Elliott ----------- resigned 10/2001
Bobby McElhiney -------- resigned 10/2001
Joe Corley ------------- resigned 02/2002
Bill Bennett ----------- resigned 02/2002
Dale Bishop ------------ resigned 02/2002
Norman Slate ----------- resigned 02/2002
Charles Link ----------- resigned 06/2002 (… served since 1978)
John Broadway ---------- resigned 06/2003 (… served since 1998)
Ray Wilson ------------- resigned 06/2004 (… served since 1992)
Russ Kersten ----------- resigned 06/2004 (… served since 1992)

Ken Rice --------------- has served since ---1989
Buck Dozier ------------ has served since ---1996
Chris Gingles ---------- has served since ---1998
Howard Henderson ------- has served since ---1999
Tommy Hoppes ----------- has served since ---1999

Jim Morris ------------- resigned 04/2004 (… served since 09/2002)
Pat Burch -------------- has served since 09/2002
Marty Rothschild ------- has served since 09/2002
Terry Ashley ----------- has served since 07/2003
Phil Coats ------------- has served since 07/2003
Mark Street ------------ has served since 07/2003

Quoting Phil Sanders:

“Entertainment settings should not be regarded as periods of worship. … There is no harm in clapping with appreciation for the entertainer, but clapping in worship seems to take the focus off of God and put it on the performer. To be caught up in the skill of a performer and to lose sight of God dilutes and cheapens worship. The rock star status accorded to some entertainers has little place next to the cross. In worship the focus must be on praising God, not the skills of men. Worship put on for show is clearly condemned in Scripture (Matt. 6:1-18; 23:5-12). … The recent blurrings of these distinctions [between entertainment and worship], coupled with the exposure to so many denominational worship services on television, services which feature professional performers, has created the confusion.”

_______________________________________

NOTE: Prior posts to this thread have been archived here. This is done to keep the loading time down and to ensure that all messages in the thread can be viewed. Thanks.

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————————————————————————————————————————
QUOTED FROM AN E-MAIL: [[[[[… I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic "worship services." I quit going to Tulsa due to this. ... ]]]]]
————————————————————————————————————————

Madison’s “Worship” Attendance Pattern—a Reflection of the Implemented “Church Growth” Scheme by Rick Warren of the Saddleback Community Church in California

———————————————————————————————————————————
Combined 8:00AM and Contemporary (10:30AM) Attendance (recent statistics taken from the Marcher)
NOTE: All figures below include 300+ from the EXT department [?]
*@ .. Sunday School Drive on October 19, 2003
*$ .. “The Passion…” Movie Drive in February-March, 2004
*@ .. Interactive Worship Drama (“Easter Sunday”)
@@ .. Baby Day Celebration (May 2)
$* .. Mothers Day (May 9)
@$ .. Church of the Week (May 16)
X* .. Great Day in May (May 23)
&$ .. Memorial Day Service
———————————————————————————————————————————
2001 _____________________ [NOTE: 2002 census shows MCC with—
__________________________ 3142 members;
__________________________ 1786 in worship attendance;
__________________________ 4730 adherents
2001 JANUARY _____________ 3000+ [?]______________________
2001 APRIL _________________________2525______________2303
2001 MAY _________________ 2498_____2675_____2403_____2348
2001 JUNE ________________ 2355_____2558_____2543_____2371
2001 JULY ________________ 2531_____2508_____2428_____2306_____2386
2001 AUGUST ______________ 2177_____2375_____2297_____2161
2001 SEPTEMBER ___________ 2163_____2335_____2577_____2096
2001 DECEMBER ____________ 2148_____2008_____2039_____2134_____1985
2002 _____________________ [no stats available________1786 reported average]
2003 JULY ________________ 1483_____[7/20]
2003 AUGUST ______________ 1702_____1759_____1726_____1742_____1732
2003 SEPTEMPBER __________ 1782_____1722_____1629_____1498
2003 OCTOBER _____________ 1681____________*@2028_____1643
2003 NOVEMBER ____________ 1708_____1664_____1526_____1637_____1596
2003 DECEMBER ____________ 1554_____1534______________1557
2004 JANUARY _____________ 1725_____1712_____1640_____1715
2004 FEBRUARY ____________ 1746_____1606_____1608_____1647_____1816*$
2004 MARCH _______________ 1819_____1718_____1738_____1698
2004 APRIL _______________ 1630_____2697*@___1628_____1733
2004 MAY__________________ 1639@@___1748$*___1605@$___1713X*___1686&$
2004 JUNE ________________ 1648_____1629_____1660_____1781
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So, we have reviewed in this thread some of the “transition” events—Saddleback Community style—at the Madison congregation. We have seen the attendance pattern (above) since the “upheaval” in the early part of 2001 thru the end of June, 2004. [Perhaps unbeknownst to many, let’s not forget that the ever-so-gradual-and-subtle Rick Warren “scheme for church growth” had already been in place at Madison in most of the 1990’s.]

While there are still unreported events since the last post in Timeline—Part VII, let’s pause for a moment and reflect on an inventory—a little examination of where the congregation stands on the “immunity to fads in worship.” In all fairness, anyone who is or has been a member at Madison is being a given an opportunity to make such an assessment. Here’s the questionnaire in the form of an article, written by John Waddey:
____________________________________

PROVIDING IMMUNITY TO FADS IN WORSHIP

Today our congregations are troubled by preachers eager to sample anything proposed for worship that is new or different. Few members would come up with such ideas on their own. They are led astray by enterprising young preachers determined to make a name for themselves.

There are some churches where the promoters of the change agenda cannot gain a foothold. Their schemes for change are dead on arrival. In such congregations brethren have antibodies that make them immune to the smooth and fair speech of change agents (Rom. 16:18).

Those who receive a steady diet of meaningful Bible instruction are safe from this ailment. Knowing God’s will, they can spot error, no matter how lovely it is packaged. They have no appetite for anything contrary to the Master’s message for the church. They have been fed the meat of the word in the classes and sermons (Heb. 5:14). It has settled deep in the hearts and minds and they will tolerate no changes to the divine plan.

Those whose worship experience is meaningful and genuine are not interested in the promotions of the change agenda. Where elders and preachers provide rich, spiritually uplifting worship, there is no interest in tricks and performance to give them some emotional exhilaration. They are thrilled as they lift up their voices in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs (Eph. 5:19). They thrill as they are led in devout, meaningful and sincere prayers to God. They are deeply touched when they commune in memory of the death of their beloved Savior (Matt. 26:26-29). They rejoice at the privilege to give their gifts to the Provider of every good and perfect gift. They feast on well-prepared lessons, spoken with enthusiasm, love and concern. The gimmicks of the promoters of change seem foolish to them. Such things profane the holy worship they already enjoy.

Those who enjoy in a close walk with God have no interest in artificial stimulates offered by the peddlers of change. This walk is pursued when they leave the worship assembly to live their daily lives (I John 1:7). It is presenting oneself to God as a spiritual sacrifice seven days of the week (Rom. 12:1). Those brethren who live sober, righteous and godly lives laced with prayer and devotion have the deep, meaningful relationship with the Father that satisfies their souls.

Those who are actively involved in meaningful Christian service have no need for entertainment when they come to worship. Having experienced pure and undefiled religion in ministering to widows and orphans and in keeping themselves unspotted from the world (Jas. 1:27), they know unspeakable joy in Christ. They do good to all men, especially fellow-Christians (Gal.6:10). They are abound in the work of the Lord (I Cor. 15:58). The charade of the change agents seems like silly child’s play to them.

Those who are actively engaged in seeking and saving the lost do not need the assistance of performers in order to rejoice in the Lord (Phil. 4:4). No greater thrill or satisfaction can be known than leading a lost soul to the Master. It is much like the birth of one’s child. To have witnessed the power of God and his gospel (Rom. 1:16), in transforming sinners into saints, changing those who formerly were like lions, but in Christ are like lambs, puts all the show time stuff in the shadows.

While a few disciples might be able to find these blessings by their own initiative, most will need the guidance and leadership of godly preachers and elders, who like good shepherds, lead them to the green pastures. Now is the time to take inventory and determine the spiritual status of your flock. You cannot afford to wait until the agents of change appear in your midst. Sheep will follow their shepherds, but the shepherds must lead the way.

_____________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now
E-Mail: johnwaddey@aol.com

A review: December 17, 2003 (as noted in above Timeline)

Madison Marcher: “Keith Lancaster will be taking a sabbatical from Madison for the next several months to spend more time with Acappella. We wish him well and look forward to his return!”

In “the next several months” that the “Worship Leader” was taking a sabbatical, Stephen Vail and Kevin Dunnebacke led singing at the 8:00 a.m. and at the contemporary 10:30 a.m. assemblies, respectively.

On June 20, 2004, Stephen Vail led singing in both assemblies due to Kevin’s injury. [What similar coincidences when Mr. Lancaster was “ill” on the last Sunday [in December 2003] that he was scheduled to lead the worshippers—just prior to the sabbatical—and he was unable to lead the contemporary worshippers.] Well, let’s see what was to happen the following Sunday.

Meanwhile, the Madison Marcher (June 23, 2004) reports regarding the class to be taught by Phil Barnes [begin being familiar with this name] and the Summer Spectacular 2004—the “Field of Promises” drama (July 18-21):

It has been a couple of years since we had an adult class in our Summer Spectacular. We decided that there was a definite need, so we are having a class this year.

It will meet in Bixler Chapel and be taught by Phil Barnes, pulpit minister for Western Hills. Phil preached for several years at Hermitage before moving to Western Hills. Many of you will recognize him from being a “regular visitor” at our Sunday evening service. The class will follow the theme of our year, “Devoted.” Each night Phil will share a lesson on the four parts of Acts 2:42…

We will conclude the class in time for everyone to be in the auditorium for the drama…

And now—June 27, 2004! Surprise, surprise! Mr. Lancaster is leading the contemporary worshippers! Sounding humbled [somewhat], he remarked: “I missed being here so much.” [Hmmm! Was this a tryout for the position of “Worship Leader” again?]

(Please note: Here’s a quote in the worship guide from the T.L.B.—quite unusual—rather than from the leadership’s official version, the N.I.V.: “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only [the word “begotten” omitted, d.c.] Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” [John 3:16, TLB])

July 4, 2004—Charismatic worship is back! Mr. Lancaster again leading the contemporary worshippers—two Sundays in a row… There was thunderous rhythmic handclapping with just about every contemporary “praise” song. “This Is How We Overcome” reminds me of vain repetition in a prayer in Matthew 6:7—“But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.” Why? In some part of the song, “This is how we overcome” is repeated some 7 times in a row—and at the end of the praise song performed, applause is likely to follow.

This article in the Madison Marcher (July 7, 2000) titled, “From the Madison Search Committee” [with other emphases mine]:

Growth and change—while inevitable events in the life of a healthy organism—are only occasionally welcomed, frequently challenging, and often avoided at all costs. Our family at Madison, however, has a heritage of embracing these realities, for in them we have chosen to see signs of life and vibrancy….

Several months ago—concurrent with an announcement from the Madison elders to the same effect—two groups appointed by the elders began praying and working toward the goals of hiring new pulpit and youth ministers. Those committees and committee members are as follows:

PULPIT MINISTER SEARCH

[The Chairman; Pat Burch, Elder Liaison; plus 11 other members, including both men and women are listed—looks like the elders alone are incapable of making the decision … needing the wisdom of Solomon here.]

YOUTH MINISTER SEARCH

[The Chairman; Chris Gingles, Elder Liaison; plus other members, including 5 men and 6 women are listed— again, looks like the elders alone are incapable of making the decision … needing the wisdom of Solomon here.]

These committees have been meeting regularly for several months, and will very soon be in a position to begin sharing the progress made toward achieving their assigned objectives.

What You Can Do


• Be in prayer about the men whom God has already chosen [but the committees would still choose, d.c.] to serve with our Madison family. Pray that God will make us sensitive to His leading and direction, that He will make His will obvious, and that He will bless Tory’s efforts as he seeks out new opportunities. [Sorry, Tory Treadway. Perhaps, you are outmoded and no longer meet the leadership’s “contemporary” standards. You will be missed!]
  
  
• Share your thoughts with a committee member or elder liaison. For example, what are the characteristics and qualities of the man you would like to see in the Madison pulpit?
  
  
As announced, our new pulpit minister (once hired) will enjoy a period of transition with Bruce and be fully in place by the end of the year. Our new youth minister will join our existing ministry team and assume Tory’s responsibilities—also by year end.

Starting with the first Sunday in July, articles will be published regularly in the Marcher to keep our family apprised of the progress of each committee. We encourage (and expect) everyone to participate in this process, and welcome your input….

[To be continued. . .]

It is clear that the ELDERS, after all, ARE more apt to chase a coon [a code word] than APT to "teach the Word as it has been taught."

If the Bible and the concurrance of ALL of history's scholars have any meaning, then you are, according to Harold Bloom who defines the Baptists as a distinctly American Gnostic religion, defining a RELIGIONISM which has no connection to historic Christianity. Well, they told you that the OLD Bible has been Shelly Sifted and "we gonna partner with God and work out our own Scriptures" and of course RELIGIONISM which is as new as the Island of LESBOS.

I want to TEACH, TEACH, TEACH that those who preach the legality [you OWE me] of tithing or the anti-Biblical and anti-Christian LAW OF GIVING have their ROLES only because "fools love to be fooled." Paul allowed the opsonion or DAILY DOLE OF FOOD for the soldier or temple worker but had to define HIMSELF as a ROBBER for taking even volunteer, individual help in order to DISQUALIFY and MARK those who are so evil and obscene that they want to ride on the backs of widows WHIPPING them as love partners to get their own kicks and "performance of religion for pay." There is NO exception to the Greek world's agreement with Paul that they are PARASITES.

YOU need to kick them out of the SADDLE on the BACKS of honest workers and get in the DRIVER'S SEAT so YOU can lay by in store BY YOURSELF so alms to the destitute can go from YOUR hand to the hand of the POOR so secretly that no parasite can even catch the crumbs. If you let your hard earned money fly loose in the AIR or LIMBO between the collection plate and GOD'S WORK then don't be surprised that, like Sadam Hussein, ALL tele-marketers and ALL churches, about 90 to 95% of the money is for OVERHEAD to feed the PARASITES.

They all subscribe to the anti-Biblical principle: Paul said THIS IS NOT a command but THEY say "this IS a command and you don't even WORSHIP unless you put something in the pot" where YOU lose control to the "god handlers."

http://www.piney.com/LayByInStore.html

http://www.piney.com/Lay.by.him.in.store.html

If you want to preach LOVE and the GOSPEL you might begin by connecting these links to all of your e-mail lists and THREATEN them if they do not pass it on to their e-mail lists. This is not "just my opinion" but the opinion of most for 2,000 years. Jesus especially made it a point to pay the TEMPLE tax and declaring that SONS OF THE KING don't pay taxes.

I believe that there is NOTHING you can do short of cutting off their hands when they get into the piggy banks for your kid's health care and education. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME. I believe that any one who CONTINUES the practice in these "bad seed" churches is as evil as the misleaders. God extends no grace to the blind willing to be led by the blind.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: J_____ _______ [_____________________]
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 2:53 PM
To: donniecruz@msn.com
Subject:

Hello Donnie

I have been reading your posts. I am disappointed that some churches that used to be sound have gone by the way. I had not realized that Madison was one of them until I came across your post about two weeks ago. I have read and re-read them and it is still unbelievable! I had always been told that it was such a great congregation. In 1979 I and Hudson Nichols bought a group of young people to high school day at Lipscomb. Even though we did not visit Madison we heard good things.

Now a question: I have been in congregations where Ray Walker or Nick Boone would be leading the song services and both said they were from Madison. Do you know what has happened to either of them?

Thanks,

[Signed]

P.S. I am a member at ___________ Church of Christ in ____________, TX

Dear J_________,

Thanks for writing. Thanks also for taking time to read my posts. You must know that it’s never a pleasure to report the happenings at a congregation, such as the one that I still consider “home.” It’s also hurtful when I am told to leave and go somewhere else by folks who disagree with me, with alienated brethren and with “the old paths, where is the good way.” The rest of the passage says, “… walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.” It further says, “But they said, we will not walk therein.” (See Jeremiah 6:16.)

It is very sad to witness firsthand the happenings at any of the congregations that experience infiltration and subversion by those who impose their will upon others and attempt to improve upon God’s will and doctrine for the church. What you had always been told about the greatness of Madison’s past is undeniably true. So, those were the days, and the current leadership would not even want to be reminded of its great past. When alienated members were told, “get over it; we must move on,” that pretty well summarizes the same pervasive attitude today.

I’m sorry that I’m unable to answer your question concerning Ray Walker except coming from those in defense of the current “worship leader” [think about this term—it must be distinguished from “song leader or starter”], that Ray was not any less “charismatic” than Mr. Keith Lancaster. (But I think, in defense of “worship leadership” and Keith, being “charismatic” is confused with being “energetic” in leading singing. I’ll let you make your own deduction from that. But to me, one was energetic; the other is charismatic.)

When I adopted Madison as my home congregation, Nick Boone was the one who led singing. NO ONE WAS LEADING WORSHIP at the time, as no one “owned” or tried to dominate all the activities during the entire assembly. Many contemporary “worshippers” have the misconception that someone who leads the “MUSICAL WORSHIP” [… and there’s no such animal in the New Testament] is THE WORSHIP LEADER. The “Acts of the Worship Leader” (in contrast to the “Acts of the Apostles”) would be a big insult to Christ Himself who said in John 4:23-24— “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” Seriously, Christ our mediator has a superior way of teaching His disciples how to worship our Father in heaven.

Oops … by the way, Nick did an excellent job in leading singing. Worship to me was reverent and meaningful then as sacred hymns that “teach and admonish” (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16) were not some of the silly, singy-clappy “praise” songs of today. [I wonder if you have heard the contemporary version of “Let Us Worship the Father”—sung as if the “Praise Team”—another man-made invention—were out there “cheerleading” at a sporting event. Note that this song has the potential of becoming a great hymn in the future, but the “way” it is sung and the “irreverent” impression that the singing portrays … embarrasses me to no end when I “listen” to it—no way could I ever participate in singing a cheapened song like that.

I believe—just my personal opinion—Nick was “outmoded” for the purpose that the leadership had envisioned for the transformation of the congregation, according to the Saddleback’s Rick Warren doctrine. Just as Jimmy Sites became the new minister at around the time, to the pro-musical worship segment of the leadership, there had to be a replacement for Nick. I had brought up this opinion before, but we’ll just have to wait and see if there’s someone else who can come up with the real reason, if there is any. For certain, there have been so many changes (besides certain doctrinal issues) in the leadership positions and in various religious and “cultural activities” of the congregation.

I have quickly looked at your church’s website. I really like the layout of the front page—the “Plan of Salvation” … the link to “Our Elders” … the link to “Our Evangelists” … the “School of Preaching” …. Unlike certain congregations with Community Church and Charismatic influences, your congregation is still adhering to the New Testament pattern—that’s my personal observation. I do not find any reference to “Worship Leader” or “Praise Team”—my presumption is that REAL congregational singing still exists there—not Praise Team domination or performances.

Again, thanks for your inquiry. [I am posting your e-mail because of the nature of my response to your very important message and question. Your identity will remain confidential unless you tell me otherwise.]

Please pass along the information to your elders and to your evangelists.

Donnie

I know Ray Walker. He goes to Church with me at Rivergate Church of Christ.

This is the most obscene blasphemy I have heard about since I TRIED to read Hicks heresy which is like reading Max Lucado and wonder if ALI CE is still smocking hash out on the plains getting ready for her WONDERLAND vision quest.

We worried about the HOMEBREAKER'S CLASS when there was too much oohing over how Keith tickled them somewhere. Now, it sounds like the SACRIFICIAL SYSTEM of the pagans is being MANNED by Dawn, Janelle and Kathy. The Bible knew that when the effeminate and feminine get involved you get roses, music and what the Greeks called a VISIONARY ORGASM. It confirms that when you have rejected the word and turned to MUSIC to worship a Holy Spirit God you have fallen and things will WAX WORSE AND WORSE. Revelation indicates that the LOCUSTS or MUSES have the job of driving away those MARKED with the Word and holding captive and TORTURING those who will not run until Jesus returns. The image I get is that they are a COLLECTING POINT AND HOLDING PEN for those who will be TOO HEAVY to rise to meet the Lord in the Air.

It is all GODDESS WORSHIP lies, lies, lies. We unwrapped the reasons God ALWAYS prohibited women in "mediating" roles in an article on the AGAPE.

http://www.piney.com/AgapeSummary.html

We also reviewed Rubel Shelly and John Yorks REVISIONING push which is a take off of the Methodist effeminate and Lesbian professors and "pastors." The HONEY they use for the 'eucharist' is NOT always what you may think. The women pushed the idea that the BLOOD to be FEASTED UPON must be or must be tainted with menstrual blood. I would run for my life and not even take a SIP.

The Lord's Supper was to REMEMBER the DEATH of Christ and NOTHING else. It was to SHOW FORTH or PREACH the DEATH of Christ. To return to Adam and Eve is to IMAGE or VISION the fall where LUCIFER the "singing and harp playing prostitute" WHOLLY SEDUCED Eve so that Paul likened it to a sexual encounter. That is why CAIN--meaning "a musical note"--is said to be OF THAT WICKED ONE. Lucifer was bi-sexual and Adam ATE from the MIDST of the TREE without questin. The Assyrians are called THE TALLEST TREE IN EDEN. Eze.31:8

Hicks book sounds like someone who HATES Jesus by associating HIS death with the SACRIFICIAL FEASTS in the SACRIFICIAL SYSTEM where he drags up the old Pagan, ignorant, legalistic superstition that GOD actuall ATE and DRANK during these festivals. The flesh and blood was their SUPERSTITION permitted by God when the ELDERS fired Him. They slaughtered TYPES of Lord Jesus Christ.

By LIMITING the Lord's Supper to a REMEMBRANCE like Passover, Jesus DELIBERATELY leapfrogged over the sacrificial system and outlawed "taking the Lord's Supper with swine flesh still in your teeth." Rubel Shelly says that Jesus would enjoy our PORK feast with the "gods."

The Jews called Jesus Beel-Zebul or the DUNG GOD or the Lord of the Flies. That is because HE was supposed to hoover around the feast like hungry flies to eat the DUNG consumed for Baal-Peor and drink the blood.

I reviewed as much as I could stomach of Hicks Holy Horror here:

http://www.piney.com/Hicks.Come.Table.html

I warn you that when you EAT and DRINK the GODS you DO NOT know what you are eating as the FEAST and drinking to the pagan Mother of the Gods or ZOE or EVE who gives LIFE.

This is the MARK of the locusts or singers.

And the starry heavens disappeared[c] as though rolled up like a scroll and taken away; and every mountain and island shook and shifted. Re.6:14

The sky is OURAONOS visioned like the Cockatrice we pictured. It is specificially the GOSPEL or CHRISTIANITY. As OROS it the mountains lifting up above the plain. That is the meaning of Armageddon. It is SYMBOLIZED by the hens or FEMALE DOMESTIC FOUL taking wings.

The GOSPEL disappeared as the BIBILON or Bible . Missed anything around Madison yet?

Disappeared means to REND APART or SEPARATE.Have you gotten any of that at Madison yet?

Did you know that literal ISLANDS just "fled away" and that the earth probably WOBBLED? God INTENDS to SHAKE the earth again and the ONLY passport is the TRUE body of Christ in the kingdom which CANNOT BE SHAKEN. When you see the WAVES attacking you it is because when the EARTHQUAKES come in a spiritual sense you FLOCK AROUND to see why the beach is so dry: then, whammo! Sad, sad that bitter wail."

Moved is kineo: the New Style Worship out of a Grace-Centered Guy is promoting KINES. The girls are getting ready to CONVERGE your SENSORY EXPERIENCES with IDOLATRY so that you CANNOT POSSIBLE remember Jesus Christ unless He has returned to INFILTRATE and DIVERT.

Fred Peatross: the percussive use of light, images and beat, the behaviors of the crowd, the kinesthetic involvement of the audience in moving, dancing and typically staying on their feet the entire time. The power of the event for the participative audience occurs
in the convergence of the sensory experience.
They are drawn into a vortex of personal and social yearnings and satisfactions.

Read my stuff and if you still want to EAT the GODS and DRINK the GODDESS for heaven's sake look it over carefully. There are more and more EFFEMINATE or FEMINIST leaders getting into DUNG and MENSTRUL BLOOD. A favorite WORSHIP of the GODDESSES now manning the sermons and singing is eating the AFTERBIRTH. My wife's sister, a missionary nurse, had to fight the men off from these practices. It certainly fits the VOODOO of "praise singing."

I would suggest that SOMEONE is deliberately forcing the ignorant to EAT AND DRINK DAMNATION OF THEIR SOULS. Remember that God has no pity on the BLIND led to eat and drink the gods by those who MAY NOT be blind.

Ken

When "scholars" write their TRAFFICKING books you MUST NOT assume that they have read any of the original documents. This includes the Bible other than just to scoop up proof-texts. Hicks has done this and doesn't have a clue to the meaning of animal sacrifices as a BURDEN laded on the backs of primarily the tribe of Levi--like "woorshuup services"--because they repudiated THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT of grace, rose up to PLAY in musical idolatry of the Egyptian trinity, and God TURNED THEM OVER to worship the starry host.

Nor can Hicks have ever read the Didache except to extract a few verses which do not mention BLOOD. However, the document mentions the Lord's supper and baptism which pretty well points to the blood of Christ to have purchased what the Didache expounds:

Waddey quotes Hicks: Contrary to most change agents, the author appeals to the law of silence to prove his point, but only in reference to the Didache, an uninspired document from the early church. Regarding the document's reference to the Lord Supper, Hicks notes, "Strikingly absent is any reference to the body and blood of Christ, or the traditional words of institution..."(p. 130)

Strikingly absent is any mention of the CROSS : shall we REVISION the Cross? Why not

By definition DIDACHE means doctrine or teaching. Hicks etal would distinguish between GOSPEL and DIDACHE. By its name we would expect that they "apostles" are writing for the benefit of people who KNOW about the cross or they would not have been baptized.

Didache CHAPTER 9

9:1 But concerning the Eucharist, after this fashion give ye thanks.

9:2 First, concerning the cup. We thank thee, our Father, for the holy vine, David thy Son, which thou hast made known unto us through Jesus Christ thy Son; to thee be the glory for ever.

9:3 And concerning the broken bread. We thank thee, our Father, for the LIFE and KNOWLEDGE which thou hast made known unto us through Jesus thy Son; to thee be the glory for ever.

9:4 As this broken bread was once scattered on the mountains, and after it had been brought together became one, so may thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth unto thy kingdom; for thine is the glory, and the power, through Jesus Christ, for ever.

9:5 And let none eat or drink of your Eucharist but such as have been baptized into the name of the Lord, for of a truth the Lord hath said concerning this, Give not that which is holy unto DOGS.

The word EUCHARIST has no meaning without the cross. If Hicks can SHED the blood from the Lord's Supper then why cannot he SHED the cross and go back--as he curses himself TO DO--to offering animal sacrifices to get the SHED BOOD for his "eating with the gods."

Waddey: * Per this book, we should "revision the supper as a family event, including children." "They are on the journey of faith, and the supper will shape the growth and development of that faith" (p. 192). If this logic be correct, would not baptism also be a learning event to shape the growth and development of children's faith? If not why?

This would demand that children MUST be baptized PRIOR to participating. But, the Didache says of Baptism:

Didache CHAPTER 7

7:1 But concerning baptism, thus baptize ye: having first recited all these precepts, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in running water;

7:2 but if thou hast not running water, baptize in some other water, and if thou canst not baptize in cold, in warm water;

7:3 but if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

7:4 But before the baptism, let him who BAPTISETH and him who is BAPTIZED fast previously, and any others who may be able. And thou shalt command him who is baptized to fast one or two days before.

The voluntary FEASTS had nothing to du with the Eucharist which in the latter MASS was a daily event primarily by the clergy.

Didache 13:5 If thou makest a feast, take and give the firstfruits according to the commandment;

Didache 13:6 in like manner when thou openest a jar of wine or of oil, take the firstfruits and give it to the prophets;

Didache 13:7 take also the firstfruits of money, of clothes, and of every possession, as it shall seem good unto thee , and give it according to the commandment.

This proves that the "apostles" agreed with Paul that eating to FILL UP with food or drink MUST not be done during the assembly. The temporary practice resembled the AGAPAE which when attempted by Christians never worked without CAUSING the outbreak of the polluting, sexual excesses including adding STRANGE STUFF to the feasts. This might gag us but the call for WOMEN ARTS to improve the Lord's Command produced what was considered the HIGHEST form of food. It also worshipped SATAN who used all of the ARTS to take the eye off God and His Word. Because Satan is a bisexual creature also FACILITATES goddess worship.

Speaking again of the Lord's Supper

Didache CHAPTER 14

Didache 14:1 But on the Lord's day, after that ye have assembled together, break bread and give thanks, having in addition confessed your sins, that your sacrifice may be pure.

Didache 14:2 But let not any one who hath a quarrel with his companion join with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be polluted,

Didache 14:3 for it is that which is spoken of by the Lord . In every place and time offer unto me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great King, saith the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the Gentiles.

Didache CHAPTER 15

Didache 15:1 Elect, therefore, for yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men who are meek and not covetous, and true and approved,

for they perform for you the service of prophets and teachers.

Ken

http://www.piney.com/ Prdidache.html

COME TO THE TABLE (A Review)


Dr. John Mark Hicks is professor of theology at David Lipscomb University. His Ph.D. is from Westminster Theological Seminary. In this book, he has given us the latest chapter in the ever-evolving "change" theology that has captivated many of our young intellectuals. The book is the result of his "revisioning" the Lord's Supper. His thesis is, "Their supper (that of the early church) was home-based, a full meal with food and drink, and interactive fellowship at a table and characterized by joyous celebration" (p. 9). To put the book in proper context, readers should note that Dr. Hicks was active in a "Community Church" experiment while living in Memphis. Currently he is closely associated with Dr. Rubel Shelly and the Woodmont Hills Family of God in Nashville. That church served as his laboratory for testing his new concept of communion. When one has read this book he may well agree that Dr. Hicks and those of his kindred in the "change brotherhood" are much like the ancient Athenians. They "spend their time in nothing else, but either to tell or to hear some new thing" (Acts 17:21).

In general, the book is reflective of Hick's training and station as a theologian. In terms of readability and comprehension, this means that the average disciple, not trained in theological jargon, will not fathom a good 80 percent of what he says. The author is also a university professor. Readers will find his method and style dull and repetitious. For slow readers, or those loathe to read such materials, they can read his concluding chapter wherein he summarizes his twelve points for revisioning the Lord's Supper.

• In that he repeats his thesis that the "supper is a table rather than an altar" (p. 185). He evidently has us confused with the Catholic church for it is their priests who observe the sacrifice of the mass. Our brethren have never done so.
  
  
• He insists that the "Lord's supper is a meal eaten at a table," not just "bread and wine" but a meal. "It is not the Lord's ‘snack' but the Lord's supper," he says (p. 186). By this he means we should have a dinner meal with the usual provisions and then commune while thus engaged in the dining experience. Some folks read, "he took a cup" and insist that the communion wine must be served in that which has a handle. Some read "table" and insist that there must be a sit down table in order to commune. Strange, unfounded thinking.
  
  
• To Dr. Hicks, the Supper is "more than a mere symbol. It is a genuine communion with God through Jesus Christ in the Spirit. God is present at the table" (p. 187). In this he is remarkably close to Luther's notion that the emblems become the real flesh and blood of Jesus when taken.
  
  
• The supper should be "a time for sharing, prayer and conversation about what God has done for us...” (p. 188). Earlier he calls it a "Jubilee festival" (p. 63). He would have it observed with "resounding jubilation or enthusiastic outbursts" (p. 97).
  
  
• He likes to say that we have "evoked images of blood and gore at the supper and participants feel guilty if they do not concentrate on the cross and Christ's death as they eat and drink" (p. 189). Paul, who did not have the privilege of studying at a modern seminary, taught that the Lord ordained bread and fruit of the vine to be taken in remembrance of his body and blood. In so doing we proclaim the Lord's death. He taught that eating and drinking the emblems in an unworthy manner would make us, "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" (I Cor. 11:23-29). But Dr. Hicks believes that the supper is "focused on the resurrection of Jesus rather than the death of Christ" (p. 189).
  
  
• According to Hicks, the church should "revision the supper as a socio-ethical witness through shared food" (p.189). He sees it as "an example of economic ethics" as "the meal served the poor in the Christian community" (p. 190) and those of the world as well. "The church...should invite the poor, the disenfranchised and the outsider to share food with them as a witness to the grace of God" (p. 190).
  
  
• To Hicks, we should revision the supper as a moment of inclusiveness that transcends all cultural, ethnic and gender boundaries" (p. 191). Already we commune with any Christian man or woman of any race or station in life. But he means more. He wants the women to participate in the teaching and serving related to the observance of the supper. He faults those churches where "only men may serve the table" (p. 79).
  
  
• Bro. Hicks tells us, "At the table we ...we mutually pledge to ‘be there’ for each other...we mutually commit to give our lives for each other..." (p. 191). This is one of the many new discoveries Dr. Hicks has made regarding the Lord's Supper. But he did not find them in the Bible.
  
  
• We should "revision the supper as the participation of all except the rebellious." By "all" he means whether they are Christians or not. Only rebellious sinners should not be invited. They need not even be believers in Christ. He reasons, "we do not exclude guests from singing, hearing the gospel or giving, and neither should we exclude them from the table" (p. 192). Per his logic even Hindus and Buddhists and others should share the holy feast just so they are not rebels to God.
  
  
• Per this book, we should "revision the supper as a family event, including children." "They are on the journey of faith, and the supper will shape the growth and development of that faith" (p. 192). If this logic be correct, would not baptism also be a learning event to shape the growth and development of children's faith? If not, why?
  
  
• Dr. Hicks acknowledges that his plan is "difficult because it creates dissonance between ourselves and our immediate heritage. It is difficult because its implementation is fraught with logistic, practical and communal problems" (p. 194). And we would add it is fraught with Biblical problems. But such means little to the promoters of change who have already displaced Biblical authority with their own standards. It is also certain to cause strife and division when men try to implement such practices among those who know and love the Truth of God.
  
  
• Jesus asked, "When the son of man cometh will he find faith in the earth?" (Lk. 18:8). Hicks has a different version. He asks, When the Son of Man returns, "Will he find a church sitting at table with each other, sharing their food, embodying the values of the gospel, and waiting for the Messianic banquet?" (p. 195).
  

In general, the reader will note that Dr. Hicks employs a new brand of hermeneutics to reach his conclusions. For example, he seems to make no distinction between the Old and New Covenants. He sees the O. T. festivals as a communion service and thus we are to model our Lord's Supper after them (p. 47). "Eating the Lord's Supper is analogous to eating Israel's sacrifices" (p. 47). He finds Christ sharing communion with people before he instituted the Lord's Supper. For every passage that speaks of Christ eating with anyone is, according to him, part of the communion story. Of course since the text does not imply his conclusions, he assures us it is found in the "theological meaning." "The table during Jesus ministry continues in the church when his disciples gather at the table. Jesus' table etiquette is kingdom etiquette..." (p. 63). The new hermeneutic even allows him to make the meal eaten by Paul and the hungry, storm-tossed mariners a communion (p. 201). Why has it taken the world so long to discover this new system?

Another discovery is that "the Lord's Supper...was not a mere corporate worship ritual, but the daily experience of worship...in a community of disciples who ate their "common" food together" (p. 91). He also finds it acceptable to describe the supper as "sacraments" (p. 104).

As change agents are wont to do, he first reaches his conclusion then looks for supporting facts to prove his case. It seems not to bother him that to do so he must compare apples with oranges. For example, Jesus provided fish and bread for the five thousand (Luke 9:10-17), therefore we should have a meal for communion (p.57-58). Since those meal stories are the "theological basis" for communion, would it bother the author if someone proposed buttermilk and cornbread with our communion? While one of the first principles of the change gospel is that there is no pattern for the faith, worship, organization and work of the church, Dr. Hicks quotes with approval, criticism of folks like us for not returning to the "New Testament patterns" he thinks he has found (p.137). Contrary to most change agents, the author appeals to the law of silence to prove his point, but only in reference to the Didache, an uninspired document from the early church. Regarding the document's reference to the Lord Supper, Hicks notes, "Strikingly absent is any reference to the body and blood of Christ, or the traditional words of institution..."(p. 130).

Those brethren who cannot see or hear evil in the doctrines of the change agents, should know that in Hicks' view "the essence of the modern supper (our communion, jhw) is suspect because it has lost its table... (meal) form" (p. 121). "(T)he modern church dangerously distorts the supper..." (p. 126).

A similar view of the supper had arisen in the church in Corinth. In his rebuke of their practice, Paul asked, "What, have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? Or despise ye the church of God..." (I Cor. 11:22). For those who know God's Word and love and respect it, the simple noting of Dr. Hicks' teaching on the sacred Supper is sufficient to demonstrate his faulty thinking. Perhaps you will agree that it is truly amazing what a fellow can learn at a seminary!

_____________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now
E-Mail: johnwaddey@aol.com

IS YOUR CHURCH TEACHING PAGAN EARTH WORSHIP IN SUNDAY SCHOOL?

http://www.newswithviews.com/DeWeese/tom24.htm

Not sure what's wrong with a testimonial during services. If we can't apply the scriptures to our lives today and actually bring others to Christ, whats the use. For too long the Coc services have been boring, boring, boring! It's time the CoC moves into the 21st century. If we are too scared to let a former addict give a little testimony about how God changed their lives, then then we in the CoC are in need of change1

I know donnie, ken and company will have a million things that are wrong with this post but I dont intend to respond to them, just need to say it.

Brad

This is part of the Daisy Chain: the "beast" whose name has not been revealed has a VISION and passes it along to all of the ditto heads or HORNS of the beast where "horns" of the beast are MUSICAL instruments. Therefore, the BEAST plays the Pan Pipes so that the same sound is heard--as lightening is seen--everywhere at the same time. The NEW DIVERSIONARY PLOY is RELATIONSHIPS.

Pedaô 2. shackle, trammel, constrained him to remain on the spot. Researchers have noted that the LOW NOTES peg you to the spot while the HIGH NOTES create the "spiritual anxiety" Jesus died to remove. In a good sense, I can understand why the CHANGE AGENTS object to obedience because PEDAO also means of a deity overruling a mortal's will,

It will always be something NEW to deliberately SOW DISCORD about the time the SHOCK wears off: It was FAMILY and the COMMUNITY which means COMMUNE. The Shepherdaing or Discipling has been restored. We saw the THE ONLY ROLE OF THE CHURCH is worship and now the role is RELATIONSHIPS? In the Book of Enoch, Jubilees and Adam and Eve that was Satan's mantra. In the Bible, the Cain-Lamech family team was "musical instruments, weapons, bringing YOUR animals into corrals and other people's tents and old Naamah who was the enchantress. If you wanted one of YOUR God-given animals you had to pay one of the Cainites for it.

Our RELATIONSHIP in the Bible flows downward from the Father: if we are children of God then we are RELATED. However, there is no role for brainwashing people into a COMMUNAL mindset where our FAITH is based on human relationships.

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. Mt.23:8

Here are some RELATIONSHIP words from the Greek and they all mean FAMILY in a secular or CARNAL way. God is SPIRIT and RELATIONSHIPS is not one of those things you can or should do with your BODY.

Oikeiotês kindred, relationship, intimacy, friendship, 2. living together as man and wife, domesticity, marriage, conformity to nature or environment,

Latin: conjunctio, I. a joining together, connecting, uniting; union, conjunction. II. 1. A conjugal connection, marriage, wedlock, 3. A connection by friendship, friendship, intimacy:

Chreia, considering in what great need we are, t o war with necessity, in the need or stress of war, b. esp. military or naval service, c. generally, business, employment, function, IV. of persons, familiarity, intimacy, tinos with one,

Sunêmosunê A. agreements, COVENANTS, Il.22.261, I. a joining together, connecting, uniting; union, conjunction,

Genos, A. race, stock, kin, b. CLAN, house, family, V. class, sort, kind,

Pan, the little perverted half-goat, half-man PIPES and causes all of the RATS or LEMMINGS to follow him to their own destruction. It IS working miracles: their goal is SLIGHT OF VOICE: "now you hear it, now you don't." The other PARABLE is that Apollo USES his LOCUSTS or "musical performers" to DRIVE OUT those marked with the Word and HOLD CAPTIVE those who have been MARKED by music--CAIN means A MUSICAL NOTE. Those JUMPING and jiving are being STUNG by the scorpion tails of the musical performers. The SPIRITUAL ANXIETY which causes them to reach the Vineyard lady's CLIMACTIC experience (just before "giving of means") is injecting VENOM but it feels good for the moment. That is a key meaning of RELATIONSHIPS.

As long as the Peter Pans can keep you BUSY and always CHANGE things to manufacture SPIRITUAL ANXIETY they can--using the Lucifer Principle--keep your eyes and mind or spirit OFF Jesus Christ. Jesus died to remove the BURDEN and the burden LADERS whose PROFESSION is creating spiritual anxiety through religious rituals.

Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall DEVOUR [eat, accuse] the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and BREAK it in PIECES. Dan 7:23

They will TREAD or TRAMPLE the court of the Gentiles because God WILL NOT PERMIT the musicians or performance preachers into the HOLY PLACES. The word BREAK has the same ROOT meaning of PSALLO or Melody. It includes to STARVE, revile, pierce, strike through, wound, beat into SMALL PIECES.

And the ten horns [sound, coronet] out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. Dan 7:24

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High,

and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Da.7:25

Wear out is:

Bela (g1080) bel-aw'; corresp. to 1086 (but used only in a MENTAL sense); to afflict: - wear out.

Or the LADEN BURDEN Jesus REMOVED:

Phortizo (g5412) for-tid'-zo; from 5414; to load up (prop. as aa vessel or animal), i.e. (fig.) to overburden with ceremony (or spiritual anxiety): - lade, be heavy laden.

Phoros (g5411) for'-os; from 5342; a load (as borne,) i.e. (fig.) a TAX (prop. an individ. assessment on persons or property; whereas 5056 is usually a gen. toll on goods or travel): - tribute.

Balah (h1086) baw-law'; a prim. root; to fail; by impl. to WEAR OUT, decay (caus. consume, spend): - consume, enjoy long, become (make, wax) old, spend, waste.

Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? Ge.18:12

It all fits their LEGALISTIC PATTERNISMS. As we noted, the TITHING and GIFTS AND OFFERINGS act under pressure is, according to Paul, EXTORTION. And that RIMES WITH:

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: Col.3:5

Mortify means what "present your body as a living SACRIFICE" means BEFORE you can possible engage in worship in the new PLACE of the human SPIRIT. "Sacrifice" means to "burn up" on the altar ANYTHING which distracts your FLESH or CARNAL nature away from the WORDS of Christ--which ARE Spirit and Life--away from YOUR human SPIRIT.

Concupiscence is another RELATIONSHIP WORD which means "a longing after THAT WHICH IS FORBIDDEN, desire, lust after. One of the historical MARKS of great millenial upsets has been the belief in THE HOLINESS OF SIN.

Steve Flatt was heard to say at the local church that the Madison FREEDOM TRAIN spends more time being SPONTANEOUS and RIGID than the REGULAR guys. That is why they CANNOT make their point without letting the Adversary accuse faithful people of being LEGALISTIC. That is a PSYCHOLOGICALLY VIOLENT THREAT to let people know that IF they object they are just RIGID. BUT, history knows that DOING exciting things to manufacture a KNOWING GOD PERSONALLY FEELING is one of the oldest, most superstitious, paganistic and legalistic things you can do. That is why Jesus died to give us REST which means: "Just COOL IT legalist."

Ken Sublett

It is obivious that you don't really don't care that we are to worship in the assembly. It appears that in your mind it's all about you and what you feel is wrong. There is NO reason you should be at Madison on Sunday. You are simple there to judge. I believe Jesus had a thing or two to say about judging. It's appears Madison is more Christ like than you, or they would tell you to "Take a Hike". May the Spirit someday convict you of your sin.

The synaogue and "church" or really assembly--even in the wilderness--held a HOLY CONVOCATION. This meant to REST so that you can READ or REHEARSE God's Word. Paul's PREACH means to "dialog" or "commune." Paul's SINGING was called SPEAKING. The Latin SERMO never meant PERFORM RHETORIC but discuss.

You have utterly DESTROYED Donnie's REMOTE POSSIBILITY of worship and now you want him to GET OUT. So, Donnie now WORSHIPS by helping other CIRCES "slowly-slinking-into-slime-as a-synagogue of Satan" by warning them what happens when the GOAT gets one 'little horn' in. PAN was and is the end-time HORNED god where horny always meant horny.

Now EVERYONE will be able to WORSHIP which ALWAYS meant to give heed to the Word of Christ as the ONLY way to give heed to Christ the Holy Spirit IF you COMMUNE and tell us where to find the ASSEMBLE TO WORSHIP passage.



The Great God Pan

The great god Pan was celebrated as the author and director of the sacred dances which he is supposed to have instituted to symbolize the circumambulations of the heavenly bodies. Pan was a composite creature, the upper part--with the exception of his horns;being human, and the lower part in the form of a goat. Pan is the prototype of natural energy and, while undoubtedly a phallic deity, should not be confused with Priapus. The pipes of Pan signify the natural harmony of the spheres, and the god himself is a symbol of Saturn [666] because this planet is enthroned in Capricorn, whose emblem is a goat. The Egyptians were initiated into the Mysteries of Pan, who was regarded as a phase of Jupiter, the Demirugus. Pan represented the impregnating power of the sun and was the chief of a horde of rustic deities, panes, fauns, and satyrs. He also signified the controlling spirit of the lower worlds.

This is why MUSIC AS WORSHIP has no other goal than to STEAL worship from God and direct it to SATAN. Rather than being a NEW STYLE WORSHIP it is as old as Satan and as USEFUL FOR USING OTHERS as Nimrod at the Towers of Babbling. It comes as no surprise to MYTH WRITERS that the more URBANE and sophisticated the more LEGALIST and SUPERNATURAL people are and the more useful as HUMAN MATERIAL as Uncle Adi would say.

Ken

PW,

I have nothing against the Madison congregation—the reason “taking a hike” hasn’t come to mind … not yet. In fact, I am surrounded by friendly brethren up there in the lonely balcony. [And speaking of the balcony, I did not see a single “Songs of Worship” notebook in my neighborhood so I could match the “notebook #” listed with each praise musical piece in the worship guide. Well, maybe, notebook copies are still on order. Can we safely assume that?]

PW, you needlessly worry too much about me. I am in the assembly mainly: (1) to commemorate the Lord’s suffering and death on the cross for me (although at times distracted by extraneous and impertinent activities during the partaking) … and (2) to give heed to the teachings from God’s word—the reason I try to take good sermon notes for personal study purposes. Unfortunately, there are times when certain teachings do not conform to those in the New Testament. These teachings must be brought to the attention of others for further study—the reason for my preceding post(s).

PW, I would appreciate your comments more if you weren’t so judgmental of me and “MY SIN”—remember your last sentence? I would appreciate it even more if your comments were directed toward my commentary on the sermon—and NOT about anyone’s sins.

Donnie

It's amazing that you're even able to worship during such times.

In fact, are you able to worship? If so, you obviously have a strong constitution. If not, aren't you sinning by even being there?

Madison’s acclaimed professional Worship Leader speaks—here’s the beginning of a series of articles provided for your convenience. The link to the original source, Madison Marcher (Vol. 54, No. 04, January 26, 2005), follows:

http://www.madisoncofc.org/Marcher/pdfs/01-26-05.pdf

Worship: It’s All About You, God!
by Keith Lancaster
Minister of Worship and Music

Jesus told the woman at the well, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming . . . and now has come when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshippers the Father seeks” (John 4:21, 23).

What a privilege we have every week to join with such a large group of fellow Christians in praising God! He has created our beautiful world, given us hearts and minds to serve Him, and His own Holy Word and Spirit to sustain us. In response to His goodness and grace, we should be worshipping with all our hearts at every opportunity.

Isn’t it wonderfully powerful to cry out to God in prayer and song, to read and study His Word, and to bring our offerings as a group? Wouldn’t it be wonderful, after our worship times together, if we were saying to our friends “What a great God!” and “Wow! Can you believe how blessed we are?”

Truly, God is the audience as we sing to Him, pray to Him and observe the Lord’s supper. It would be so frivolous to just passively absorb a program of worship that others put on “for” us. What God desires is our full engagement in glorifying Him. He created the very emotions that we use in praise and worship. Could worship ever be just an intellectual exercise or checklist of duties? Not if you are earnestly seeking God.

Congregational singing is an especially powerful way we can all lift our hearts to God because everyone can participate. Every voice is a sweet sound in God’s ear, even though you may think that you only make a “joyful noise.”

Even if you’ve never thought of yourself as a minister or a singer, you are involved in music ministry by singing wholeheartedly in worship. The heartfelt singing is such an encouragement to our brothers and sisters in the Lord. In fact, through song, some people’s hearts can be touched for the Lord in ways that spoken words perhaps could not do.

Let us always be mindful of these words from Colossians 3: “Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your heart to God.”

To be continued next week . . .

_________________________________

Contrary to what you have just read may suggest, the title of my post, “WORSHIP: It’s All About the “Worship Leader,” the “Praise Team” and “Music” is the gist of Keith Lancaster’s article above.

At the outset, I’m sorry, but it is really sad that a congregation of the Lord’s church would use the “collection for” the saints, the widows and the needy (I Corinthians 16:1-2; Acts 6:1; Rom. 15:26) to provide […I wonder about this] full-time employment [$$$$] for a professional worship choreographer. Remember what he said about “… a program of worship that others put on ‘for’ us”? That’s worship choreography—it is pretty evident. Don’t forget that this businessman doing this type of “service for the Lord” is the “founder and chairman of Acappella Ministries and producer of the singing group ACAPPELLA” (cf. Madison’s website).

Keith has a different idea about worshipping the Father in spirit. He believes that it requires a “worship leader” to lead and direct the congregation (“his” followers) to God’s “holy and divine” presence—reverently … supposedly. Nonetheless, to him, “in spirit” means the need for a cheerleading squad, his Praise Team with their hand-held microphones, and also the rhythmic clappers, of whom “he is chief.” “In truth” to him means singing some songs written by business-oriented “Christian” rock artists whose messages are often devoid of Christ’s truth—remember “let[ting] the word of Christ dwell in you richly … teaching and admonishing one another….”? “In spirit and in truth” to him must mean the worship cheerleader initiating and urging the congregation to applaud immediately after the music ends. That’s why he says, “He created the very emotions that we use in praise and worship.” Sorry, Keith, it doesn’t have to be the same emotions that we use in sport events and in rock concerts, does it? He goes on to ask, “Could worship ever be just an intellectual exercise or checklist of duties?” No, Keith, worship is not about musical exercise!

To Keith, “crying out to God in song” or making a “joyful noise” means “rhythmic handclapping [also programmed and rehearsed] to go along with the “upbeat” music—even when it is very annoying and disturbing to others. It means “enjoying” the “music” that resembles the atmosphere in a “rock” concert. Please don’t be misled by the titles and words such as in “It’s All Right” … “I Belong to Jesus” … “Jesus Will Fix It” … etc. Remember what I said earlier about the 7-11 music (7 lines, repeat 11 times)? Here’s one for you. Again, don’t be misled by the words … just wish you could really listen to “the music.”

“These are the days of Elijah … and these are the days of Your servant Moses … These are the days of Ezekiel … and these are the days of Your servant David….

There’s no God like Jehovah.
There’s no God like Jehovah.
There’s no God like Jehovah.
There’s no God like Jehovah.
There’s no God like Jehovah.
There’s no God like Jehovah.
There’s no God like Jehovah.
There’s no God like Jehovah.
There’s no God like Jehovah.
There’s no God like Jehovah.
There’s no God like Jehovah.
There’s no God like Jehovah.
There’s no God like Jehovah.
There’s no God like Jehovah.
There’s no God like Jehovah!
. . .”

That was not a mistake. I have made sure that it’s repeated 15 times with an exclamation point at the last one. Be assured this was mainly a “Praise Team” activity—being able to keep up with a different tune for each one and fifteen times. When the music ended, I guesstimated that the line must have been repeated 15 times. I was right.

Keith says, “Congregational singing is an especially powerful way we can all lift our hearts to God because everyone can participate. Every voice is a sweet sound in God’s ear….” Keith, congregational singing is best determined without your Praise Team performing OR even with the “Praise Team” present but singing without their microphones. Keith, if you honestly believe that the audience is God, then, why is your Praise Team singing to God with their microphones—or does God need a hearing aid? If the preceding reasoning is faulty, then, it stands to reason that the audience of your Praise Team is the congregation!

Finally, I would not consider “music” as a ministry. The needed ministry, according to the Scriptures, is world evangelism—simply teaching and proclaiming the simple gospel of Christ to others. Besides, that’s where the “collection” could be better spent.

Hebrews 10—“[24] And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works [what about it, Phil Barnes]: [25] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.” [KJV]

Acts 20—“[7] And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight….” [KJV]

Colossians 3—“[16] Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. [KJV]

Ephesians 5—“[19] Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.” [KJV]

If you were to ask me, “Did you feel like you attended a Pentecostal/Charismatic/concert-like ‘worship service’ [this past Sunday]?” My response would be: “Good question! You already know the answer. The constant clapping, applauding and expressing of “unintelligible sounds” to accompany certain songs were totally unnecessary in worshiping our Father in REVERENCE and AWE.”
_____________________

Donnie

Donnie when you read this you have to cry and ask yourself why can't we all have a wonderful group of leaders, Elders, and a preacher such as this congregation has. Go to http://www.charlotteavechurchofchrist.org/issues.htm

The brotherhood is truly blessed to have this fine congregation as an example of what New Testament Christianity is all about.

In Christ,

Jimmy

Jimmy,


That was indeed an inspiring, simple, and beautiful thing. Congregations such as that give us hope. Thank you for sharing that.




Joel

I just wanted to inform you that the preacher from the above link that we referred to will be speaking on the up coming Freed-Hardeman Lectureship as he has done often in the past.

For all you who are members of congregations with Elders who stand for only what the Bible teaches and oppose the change agents consider yourselves blessed in the Lord. Pray without ceasing giving thanks to God for your Elders, Preachers, Deacons and members. I pray often for mine plus I include our School of Preaching that we have here at the Brown Trail Church of Christ in Bedford, TX.

Please don't wait until a change begins to take place at the congregation you attend. PRAY NOW!

In Christ

Jimmy

WORSHIP—It’s All About
the “Worship Leader,” the “Praise Team” and “Music”


NOTICES AND ANNOUNCEMENTS:

The new “worship program” format now lists [but only 10 of] the “Madison Shepherds”—perhaps inadvertently omitting Ken Rice and Jim Wilson.

The “Madison Ministerial Staff” lists the following men and women:

Phil Barnes --------- Pulpit Minister
C. Bruce White ------ Minister
Keith Lancaster ----- Worship Minister [a.k.a. “Worship Leader”]
Frank Scott --------- Family Life Minister
Shana Curtis -------- Youth Minister
Keith E. Hall ------- Youth Minister


Bible Study (Madison Church of Christ/Sunday School/9:20)

BELOW SCHOOL AGE: (Nursing Room ... Babyland ... etc.)

SCHOOL AGE: (Green Submarine ... ... ... Teen – Sr Hi)

ADULTS (Classes taught by the following men and women):

“Graceful Parenting” -------------- Dr Frank Scott
“Christianity 101” ---------------- Lyman Parker
“Book of James” ------------------- Nila Sherrill
Young Prof. “Philippians” --------- Mark Carver
“Spiritual Disciplines…” ---------- Sam Perry/Jason Patterson
“Experiencing God for Couples” ---- Terry & Susie Ashley
“Believing God” ------------------- Rob Wells/Leanne Shelby
Good Neighbors “Bible Characters” - J D Elliott
Seekers Class “Prison Epistles” --- Bob Hudson
Young Married “Stay Tuned…” ------- Brandon Adams
Growing in Christ “I Corinthians” - Marty Rothschild
“The Bible & Dr White” ------------ Dr Bruce White


“Winning the Battle Within” was the sermon delivered by Phil Barnes … finally … after some 14 songs, Video, Communion, Love Feast and other activities preceding. Surprising and a rarity in between was a “thought” about purity—“Purer in Heart” (#542) was sung. Also shocking was the “NEED” for the Savior after all [somewhat different from the “me-my-mine-myself” focus or the “I love you” reminder to God]. Yes, “I Need Thee Every Hour” (#288) was also sung!!! A total of some 17 songs during the entire musical worship period this past Sunday didn’t quite break the record.

I stated earlier that there’s so much emphasis on God’s “grace” and “freedom” in Christ in contemporary, post-modern circles to the point of misuse, abuse and misapplication of such grace and freedom. Romans 6:1—“… Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?”

I would like to think that now Phil is asking, “Can I sin all my life because of God’s grace?” Or, does he still equate grace with the belief that “you can totally abandon sin.” Regardless of what he believes, he still ascribes strict adherence to God’s commands, rules and principles to the “legalist” or to “legalism”—the typical change agent’s view of New Testament Christianity.

Phil Barnes seems to forget in Romans 2:5-7—“the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.”

II Corinthians 5:9,10—“Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Christians are to “maintain good works” (Titus 3:8). Christians are “his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works” (Eph. 2:10). And the second chapter of the book of James clearly speaks of faith without works being dead.

Madison’s acclaimed professional Worship Leader speaks—here’s the second in a series of articles provided for your convenience. This article is not yet available online. But the link to the original source, Madison Marcher (Vol. 54, No. 05, February 2, 2005), should be:

http://www.madisoncofc.org/Marcher

Worship: Our Great Heritage of Singing
by Keith Lancaster
Minister of Worship and Music

There is nothing sweeter than hearing pure voices united in sincere praise to God, and as we all know, the Church of Christ has long been noted for its emphasis on vocal (or a cappella) music. Personally, I love our heritage of congregational singing and think it is the most beautiful music in the world.

Many visitors comment to me about the wonderful singing at Madison. The way we can impact others with our worship is certainly something to think about. We should be singing enthusiastically with all our hearts, causing visitors to be inspired and even amazed at the music we make with voices only. In this way, we can all minister to others and point each other toward our Creator.

In my travels around the country, I have noticed many congregations seem to be singing a lot more in unison than they used to, and a lot less in four-part harmony. Granted, singing in four parts requires more effort, but for that matter singing without instruments can be fairly challenging. One benefit of singing a cappella, especially in four parts, is that the extra effort can help us concentrate on the message of the songs.

If we are going to preserve our unique and beautiful heritage of a cappella singing, we must commit to educating ourselves about singing. Congregational singing workshops used to be fairly commonplace. These classes can be very useful in improving our singing. As people become more confident in their ability to sing a part, we all reap the benefits of increased participation. More knowledgeable singers, perhaps those who learned to read music in school choruses or bands, can also learn to read music better and be a great benefit in supporting the overall sound of the congregation.

With all of us working together to give God our best efforts in singing, we will find ourselves more engaged than ever before in true, wholehearted worship to God. We are His creation, engaging in our eternal purpose.

To be continued next week.

______________________

Please feel free to discuss the article. Provocative questions or thoughts to consider: What or how do you envision the main purpose of the gathering or assembly of the early Christians or disciples of Christ? Would you be convinced if the church in Corinth or Ephesus devoted 75% of the assembly period to musical worship? Did each congregation have a “worship leader” to lead or direct the saints into God’s holy presence? Do you realize that it was Jesus himself who told his disciples how to worship the Father in spirit and in truth (John 21-24)? Is it possible for a man-designated “worship leader” to be self-serving? Should a “worship leader” who already owns a profitable business [especially one that is “religious-oriented”] and who gets paid by other means (seminars, tours, etc.) … accept payment for his “willing service for the Lord”? In other words, should “collection for the poor saints and the needy” be taken out of the church treasury to pay for the “professional” services of an employed “worship leader”? There are lots more questions, but we have a good start for you to post your comments.

Donnie

I was just curious to know if you go to services to worship God with other brothers and sisters or do you go to services to take notes so you can write these articles each week?

And I am curious as to why, if you don't like what Phil is saying and you don't like what Keith is doing, why do you keep going there? You seem to be miserable with every aspect of the worship service. It's a free country and you can attend where you like and no, I'm not trying to run you off. Like I said, you can attend where you like, but you don't seem to like it!

Jesus used Isaiah as a PROOF TEXT about people who make music and profit but do not obey "that which is written." Therefore, Donnie has the following authority?

30:5 They were all ashamed of a people that could not profit them, nor be an help nor profit, but a shame, and also a reproach.

30:6 The burden [SONG] of the beasts of the south: into the land of trouble and anguish, from whence come the young and old lion, the viper and fiery flying serpent, they will carry their riches upon the shoulders of young ASSES, and their treasures upon the bunches of camels, to a people that shall not profit them.

30:7 For the Egyptians [remember the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai] shall help in vain, and to no purpose: therefore have I cried concerning this, Their strength is to sit still.

30:8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and NOTE it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:

30:9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the Lord:

30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth [flattery] things, prophesy deceits:

30:11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

Under TITHING TOO I have proven that ALL musicalpatterns tell God: we WILL NOT listen to YOUR word. That is why WE have hired a PULPIT slave to "hold up the pulpit, no doubt." The MANY in the Thessalonian letters were PREACHERS who WOULD NOT WORK. Paul had provided the DIRECT COMMAND and the APPROVED EXAMPLES. Only LEGALISTS could fail to grasp:

2Th.3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would NOT work, neither should he eat.

2Th.3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man,and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

Donnie will go down as an Apostle of NOTE. There is no more LEGAL direct command than to test the spirits and;

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

There can be no more LEGALIST than to take the food money from children's parents under the SCAM that one is a PULPIT MINISTER. My God, doesn't he realize that a minister is a SLAVE or a SERVANT of the people? That Paul commanded Timothy--as a minister--to WORK so that he could exercise AGAPE or help feed the poor on their way to hard labor WITHOUT breakfast. I have TOLD you and you JUST cannot grasp it: Jesus stood up to READ the Word "as it had been written" and then as a MINISTER or DEACON of the people SAT DOWN with the "commoners."

Can Phil NOT grasp that a Pharisee and therefore consumate LEGALIST was one who cut 'N spliced the WORDS of Christ the Spirit and SHUFFLED them into a more POWEFUL pieced of rhetoric or sOPHIStry meaning "serpant" or OPHIS or ENchanter or PARASITE.

A perverse LEGALIST -- as well documented about 100% -- is a TEAM gang-raping blind and mentally-deprived people with MUSIC using a MECHANICAL instrument or an ORGANIC instrument to shatter the nerves of people so that they can INJECT their own silly human-pagan philosophy. I dare Phil to DEFINE a legalist WITHOUT sentencing himself to prison IF he was not engaged in what the CHARISMA magazine I read in the doctor's office this morning defines as a GIANT RELIGIOUS PONZI scheme: the more CHARISMATIC they become the MORE people get molested for a spell but then RUN for their lives so that there is a RADICAL shift away from PERFORMERS having nothing to say but SAY and SAY and SAY and leave the people hungry for the Word.

Donnie has the mandate of God and the first ammendment: you should busy yourself with improving the TAKE and TAKE and TAKE and whine. Oh, God, there goes the gag again. Let David tell you about the STATS of what you can do for pennies what the STAFF wants 10% off the top for. One of the white lies was that God will outgive you! That is the meaning of PONZI. Why pay money for what is NOT bread when God gave you the WATER and BREAD OF LIFE for free (Isaiah 55). Why are YOU still PAYING for watered water? Are you a legalist believing that a HUMAN can make spiritual changes or CONDUCT you into God's presence so that YOU don't get HURT? God had taken a NOTE of your name. If YOU pay a LEGALIST then YOU ARE a legalist and we need your NAME for Donnie's record for HISTORY and your FAME.

When Donnie yells TIDAL WAVE why are YOU one of those guys who cannot resist running down to see why the TIDE has suddenly gone WAY out just to make it SAFE for you to see the BOTTOM?

Ken

Thank you for your response. I do not go to Madison but am a member of the Lord's church and was just curious. If I may also ask, where do you see the Madison C of C in 5 years? And, what would you like to see happen at Madison c of C in the next 5 years?

I moved almost 3 years ago to another state and therefore another congregation. Shortly after my family and I left, the congregation started having troubles and I know through friends and family that still attended there how awful it is when there is trouble in the family of God. That congregation no longer exists because of a split and a merger with a second congregation in the city. The building was sold and torn down for a housing development and the spreading of God's word is much weaker in an area that desperately needs it.

Thank You
Bart

what happend to tory tredway? why is he not a youth min. anymore?

I can only surmise as to what happened to Tory—not charismatic or contemporary enough for the MYG (Madison’s Youth Group), as well as the “Keith-Phil-Tory” threesome, perhaps? You may be able to inquire by sending an e-mail to the church office via:

http://www.madisoncofc.org/Marcher/index.aspx

If you’re interested in Tory’s article, “Thank You, Madison!” . . . it is in the Madison Marcher (Vol. 53, No. 52, December 29, 2004). This has been archived, and the office might be able to provide you a link to it.

Donnie

Miracles are now happening at Madison! After citing Matthew 28:18-20 the writer refers to, "...the MIRACLE (EMP. jw) of being forgiven and added into the Church of our Lord."


Elders "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and unto ALL the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the Church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood." (KJV Acts 20:28).
I am not preaching, I am just trying to encourage the Elders at Madison as well as everywhere else to be aware that the responsible of sound doctrine and sound practise in a congregation is one of their responsibities. God does hold Elders accountable. Christ purchased the Church with His blood. Elders are overseers of a blood bought institution. It was not purchased with money, it did not attract followers with entertainment, it was not the most popular place in town, in fact many of the leaders and members in the Church were killed, put in prison, forced to hold services behind closed doors, run out of towns, and yet through all of this they held fast to the Word of God.

The articel I refer to is in this edition of the Marcher
http://www.madisoncofc.org/Marcher/pdfs/02-09-05.pdf

Keith Lancaster Violates “Our Great Heritage of Singing”

A continued discussion of Keith’s second article—

Worship: Our Great Heritage of Singing


First of all, Keith Lancaster as Madison’s man-authorized “worship leader” is misleading the congregants by implying and emphasizing that “worship” is comprised essentially and primarily of “MUSIC.” You know, I envision the assembly or the gathering of the saints as something similar to that in Acts 20:7—to break bread and to learn from God’s word. Hebrew 10:25 clearly speaks of the “assembling of ourselves together … exhorting one another….”

Keith’s choreographed worship includes 12 to 18 “praise” musical pieces—with some of these written by “Christian rock” artists [imagine their kind of “music” … no wonder!] and most of which are sung while folks are standing up, including the seniors and the not-so-able. But is that really surprising? No, it’s the change/contemporary movers’ scheme—“wear your legs out … you’re worshipping with all your might and strength … and it’s different from what the lazy saints of the 50’s did!”

The musical exercise invariably represents at least 70% of the assembly period—well, that may include solos and duets, video, story-telling before the Communion and the Love Feast. The choreography includes, of course, programmed and “rehearsed joy” of rhythmic clapping—the trademark of contemporary Christian music, as well as the performances (i.e., with microphones) and co-leading of Keith’s choir (a.k.a. the “Praise Team”).

It’s second nature with Keith to signal the crowd to clap or to show the folks how to make the song an “action song.” After an upbeat music, Keith leads the crowd to applaud. He also recites a little prayer or two for God to recognize and appreciate his paid effort and God-given talent [please do not confuse this with “spiritual gift” because it isn’t, OK?]. He is so convinced that worship “in spirit” means feeling “charismatic” [in the modern sense] and “in truth” means expressing “truly how one feels”—you know, it’s the “I love you, Lord … I praise you” and the “I-me-my-mine-myself” mentality. He thinks “joyful noise” means clapping, whistling, o-o-o-ing, the “choir” members using the microphones, and making unintelligible sounds that simulate instruments.

One question: Does clapping still make singing a cappella? Does the clapping sound or noise (… more like noise) emanate from the larynx? I didn’t realize that the clapping hands had elastic vocal cords!!! If so, then, why shouldn’t musical instruments make singing a cappella just as well?

Keith thinks that “music” is most beautiful from the human auditory canal’s standpoint; God does not need voices magnified by the hand-held microphones—God is more interested in Christians SPEAKING to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. SPEAKING to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs! SPEAKING TO ONE ANOTHER in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. [Sorry, yes, it is found in Ephesians 5:19.] The remaining of the passage states: “…singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.” In other words, “singing in your heart” does not even have to mean vocal music, does it? Anyway, the KEYWORD is “speaking” and not “music.”

What are Christians supposed to speak to each other about? Here’s another one for you … “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your heart to the Lord” (Col. 3:16). Again, it’s letting THE WORD OF CHRIST DWELL IN … TEACHING AND ADMONISHING ONE ANOTHER…. What good is Keith’s MUSIC if it doesn’t serve the purpose? Or, is his purpose so that “many visitors comment to me [Keith] about the wonderful singing at Madison”? Or … to “be singing enthusiastically with all our hearts, causing visitors to be inspired and even amazed at the music we make with voices only”? But, Keith, “WITH VOICES ONLY” excludes the rhythmic clapping noise!

Keith, in your “travels around the country,” the real ministry of evangelism is better accomplished when you teach the gospel of Christ to the lost. Praising the Lord or worshipping the Father is an individual Christian matter, even when the saints assemble in fellowship to teach and admonish one another. I’m afraid you’re majoring in minor matters and violating “Our Great Heritage of Singing.”

Donnie

Why dont you just leave donnie! You're making yourself miserable and come off looking like a fool.
I dare you to post this since most of my post dont make it to the board. I see you people censure what you dont like since 90% of this board is made up of you and that nut Ken.

YOU could just skip Donnie's description of what God called a LAUGHINGSTOCK when it happened at Mount Sinai. Wouldn't that be easier on all of us. You can get all of the truth from Donnie and HE will not send you an EXTORTED bill. But, then WHO gonna pay a Tithe to watch 'em wiggle and writhe?

I get posted because I am just a cracked nut and you can see that there is no FRUIT inside.



Donnie is a MOCKERnut and he has been commissioned to HISS AND CLAP in derision as God pours out his WRATH which is to send YOU buffoons and jesters.



However, you must be a BITTERnut because the clangy-twangies have probably "stolen the sugar in a virtual kiss."




It looks like a small thin-shelled pecan and is honey colored. However, when you bite into it it turns BITTER. That is what happens when "prophets" try to open up God's book as a honky tonk "angel."

And I took the little book out of the angels hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.Re.10:10

You should NOT try to bite into God's Word without loving it and hating situations where someone has obviously GONE MAD just as that was the GOAL of "musical religionists." I have a hard time believing that there are SO MANY "like that" still around. Maybe Donnie is bearing your cross -- BUT JUST FOR THE MOMENT!

What Donnie has said is 100% Biblical and therefore Christian: if you howl like a lost soul in the night when you hear it then maybe Jesus is deliberately speaking to you so that you CANNOT hear it. That is what He did to the professional religionists in Jerusalem which is called Sodom for many good reasons. They, too, were piping hoping to get Jesus do do the singing-dancing DIONYSUS shuffle which is the meaning of BOWING to Baal. Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG so maybe it isn't Donnie you are sniffing.

I truly am embarassed beyond words when Donnie describes what they are DOING TO you and calling it WORSHIP. It has all of the MARKS of IMPURE RELIGION which is exactly what he is OUTING for the TRUTH SEEKERS. After all, BEARING WITNESS and NOT converting is the end-time evangelism.

I suspect that a LOT of people are watching for the CAR WRECK just as they might watch the Corinthians for the antics of MADNESS. That is probably more exciting--if less eductional--than watcing HEE-HAW. If it made ME mad I would hire me a "Minister of Gender Identity."

Ken

Maybe, Brad. Before I leave, should I sing “…You have turned my mourning into dancing…” and do a literal 360-degree circle aerobics dance as I’ve seen it done by some during musical “worship”? Please read my response to Dotty’s similar but more polite remarks about seeming to be “miserable” and “attending” somewhere else (cf. February 8-9 posts).

Your post this time made it to the board. Perhaps, it is an invitation for you to join civil discussions with the nutty 90% of this board? You know, sometimes I need to be reminded when I’m being too tough and mean to someone or need any inaccurate information corrected.

Donnie

Donnie,
You said: "or need any inaccurate information corrected."

That would be most of the information (AKA garbage) you post here.

Bet this post don't make the cut............It's too close to the truth.

EW

Donnie,

You only spend an hour a week in the church house or with anyone else associated with the assembly that meets at Madison.

Did you notice in the marcher last week that there will be care group study at preacher Phil's starting March 6 at 4pm? It's on my way to the truck stop in Lebanon where we do Sunday evening worship. How about joining me at preacher Phil's and then to the truck stop? If you would like, I'll take you to lunch after the morning assembly, fellowship and pray some, discuss some juicy doctrine, do Phil's and ts. We'll make a day out of it....sort of like the sabbath being devoted to the Lord.

How about it bro? You can catch me on the other end of the balcony next Sunday...or just meet in the middle...let me know.

blessings
chuck

Chuck,

Great invitation..................Don't hold your breath...............

Eddie

Donnie,

Maybe I'll make it a little plainer. I'm more interested in being the church than going to church. Maybe that's what Ken and I have in common. From what I've read, he doesn't bother with going. But what about that fellowshipping with the saints that we see in the BOOK? Is there some necessary inference or something?

blessings and mercy on all...see you on the in/out then next week Donnie. you really ought to meet some of these people though...i hear preacher Phil's wife is known for some mighty fine vittles...you know that fellowship meal we read about?

chuck
<")))><

IF I could find a SYNAGOGUE OF CHRIST or a School of the Bible which assembled to glorify God with "that which is written" with one mind and one voice, ate the Lord's Supper without "aid," determined who were DESTITUTE and let THOSE THAT PROSPERED take care of the problem THEN I might return.

1 Cor 11:17 In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good.

The NECESSARY INFERENCE and Paul's correctives NEVER changed Corinth as post Biblical writers affirm is that I SHOULD NOT attend an assembly which would be quite identical to what I hear Donnie describing. That form of musical singing is called PROPHESYING or "lord, lord saying" and is the meaning of the uncovered WOMEN in 1 Cor 11:5.

I would never give my affirmation to anyone who DEMANDS the Law of Tithing or the LAW of Giving: an error of both the LEGALISTS and ANTI-Legalists. I would never abide sitting as AUDIENCE where they insist on the LAW OF SANGING and repudiate the Author of all of the songs and sermons. I will never give a a BRONZE RUST SCALE to the new crop of PREACHERS until I can find the OFFICE of preacher in the Bible or in minimal common sense. I will never endure a CEREMONIAL RITUAL calculated to create "spiritual anxiety" when Jesus died to give me REST which means "stop it."

I will never endorse ANY group which worships the NAMES Of three members of the Family of Gods because they are polygamists [oops! Freudian slip I mean polyTHEISTS] preaching a much more heretical version of the "blessed trinity" than any Catholic writer in history. I would as soon lite the fuze at WACO or drink Jonestown Koolaid as to give my ears and eyes to some nitwit who CLAIMS that he is guided by a separated SPIRIT person. My second APPROVED EXAMPLE is:

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

You will notice that John mentioned the TESTIMONY and in Rev 19:10 he said that The testimony of Jesus IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY. Peter affirms the meaning of SPIRIT in 1 Peter 1:11 and Paul does so in 1 Cor 2 and 2 Cor 3.

Second, Patmos and other islands were the arena of CIRCE from which we get CHURCH. John was not totally isolated. However, he said that he was IN THE SPIRIT on the Lord's day. That is the new PLACE where Jesus said is the ONLY PLACE where God seeks us in devotion to the TRUTH.

Third, Jesus said of the twos and threes--and there will probably never be many more if we honored the Word--and said "Come learn of Me."

My personal makeup never would permit me to prove my manliness by holding on to a spark plug. It will not tolerate the CIRCUS (the meaning of Circe or church) and insult to personhood. Paul told me that to met Jesus I would have to go OUTSIDE THE CAMP and my happy holler is about as far OUTSIDE of Camp-Hohenwald as you can get. As about the only EVANGELIST in my county I count about 48,000 page hits a week and with diabetes added to the list that is about all I intend to do and NOT try to hold on to the spark plugs at "the Circus."

Ken

Keith quotes the NIV and which CONFESSES that the word does not mean PRAISE in his singy-clappy, praisy-crazy sense

Psa 8:2NIV From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise [b] because of your enemies, to silence the foe and the avenger.
b2 Or 'strength'

By referencing this we understand that what the "children" who were NOT suckings were doing did not fit the MUSICAL SING-CLAPPY PATTERNISM:

And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased, Matthew 21:15

Hosanna is a PLEA FOR HELP: the last part of the word is a plea for KNOWLEDGE. Their CRYING was a pitiful cry for help and the recorded PATTERNISM of musical worship is a MARK of pople lost beyond redemption. The CRY is:

Krazo (g2896) krad'-zo; a prim. verb; prop. to "croak" (as a raven) or scream, i.e. (gen.) to call aloud (shriek, exclaim, intreat): - cry (out).

And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise? Matthew 21:16

Godly PRAISE is telling what God has done in GOD'S own words and not OUTING yourself as the TRUE AFFLICTER (meaning singer)

Ainos (g136) ah'ee-nos; appar. a prim. word; prop. a STORY, but used in the sense of 1868 [lauding]; praise (of God): - praise.

And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God. Lu.18:43

Psa 8:1 (To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of David.)
O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

Psa 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

STRENGTH is not praise in a spiritual sense

Oz (h5797) oze; or (fully) owz oze; from 5810; strength in various applications (force, security, majesty, praise): - boldness, loud, might, power, strength, strong


For I will lay the land most desolate, and the pomp of her strength shall cease; and the mountains of Israel shall be desolate, that none shall pass through. Eze.33:28

Azaz (h5810) aw-zaz'; a prim. root; to be stout (lit. or fig.): - harden, impudent,prevail, strengthen (self), be strong.


That walk to go down into Egypt, and have NOT asked at my mouth; to STRENGTHEN themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt Is.30:2

Therefore thus saith the Lord God; An adversary there shall be even round about the land; and he shall bring down thy strength from thee, and thy palaces shall be spoiled. Am.3:11

THE PRAISE KEITH IS USING IS IDENTICAL TO HALAL which is the SOURCE for the word LUCIFER:

Halal (h1984) haw-lal'; a prim. root; to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causat. to celebrate; also to stultify: - (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (- ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.

The enemy is:

Carar (h6887) tsaw-rar'; a prim. root; to cramp, lit. or fig., trans. or intrans. (as follows): - adversary, (be in) afflict (-ion), besiege, bind (up), (be in, bring) distress, enemy, narrower, oppress, pangs, shut up, be in a strait (trouble), vex.

Forasmuch therefore as your treading is upon the poor, and ye take from him burdens of wheat: ye have built houses of hewn stone, but ye shall not dwell in them; ye have planted pleasant vineyards, but ye shall not drink wine of them. Amos 5:11

For I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty sins: they afflict the just, they take a bribe, and they turn aside the poor in the gate from their right. Am.5:12

Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols. Amos 5:23

AFFLICT means to look down, brow beat or sing responsively.

Anah (h6030) aw-naw'; a prim. root; prop. to eye or (gen.) to heed, i. e. pay attention; by impl. to respond; by extens. to begin to speak; spec. to sing, shout, testify, announce: - give account, afflict [by mistake for 6030], (cause to, give) answer, bring low [by mistake for 6030], cry, hear, Leannoth, lift up, say, * scholar, (give a) shout, sing (together by course), speak, testify, utter, (bear) witness. See also 1042, 1043

STILL THE ENEMY means:

Shabath (h7673) shaw-bath'; a prim. root; to repose, i. e. desist from exertion; used in many impl. relations (caus., fig. or spec.): - (cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep (sabbath), suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away.

Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make the poor of the land to fail, Am.8:4

For I will lay the land most desolate, and the pomp of her strength shall cease; and the mountains of Israel shall be desolate, that none shall pass through. Eze.33:28

Then shall they know that I am the Lord, when I have laid the land most desolate because of all their abominations which they have committed. Eze 33:29

Also, thou son of man, the children of thy people still are talking against thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother, saying, Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the Lord. Eze 33:30

And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness. Eze 33:31

And, lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not. Eze 33:32

And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,) then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them. Eze 33:33

The prophets are very vocal in repudiating MUSICAL performance which STARVES the people for the Word. It seems clear that Keith is dehydrated a bit. Nevertheless, God always sends a witness and provides a way of escape. In this case it is a MARK--and CAIN means a MUSICAL NOTE--so that in his very SERMONIZING he self-accuses himself and teamys as the VERY ONES who afflict and oppress and TAKE AWAY the money of the people.

Ken

Here’s some breaking news! Well … not really because it’s happened before. So, for now let’s suspend our discussion of “musical worship” in order to inform you that once again the “contemporary” division of the church at Madison will be “celebrating” Easter at its regular 10:30 a.m. schedule. You will note in the article below where it says “… when we will celebrate the Lord’s Supper.” But please note that the “celebration” will first occur on Saturday, March 26th at 7:00 p.m. And help me understand if this means and if this is the beginning of observing the Lord’s Supper both on Saturday and on Sunday.

I will quickly type this article for your reference for now. We expect the Madison Marcher (Vol. 54. No. 07, February 16, 2005) that contains this article to be available online soon. The link should be:

http://www.madisoncofc.org/Marcher/index.aspx


Easter Worship Drama


“He was pierced for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities.
The punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes, we are healed.”


Easter holds a special place in the heart of every believer. The sacrifice that was made for us, and our Lord’s triumph over death, are the very core of our faith. This year, on Saturday, March 26th at 7 p.m. and again on Easter Sunday during our 10:30 a.m. worship service, we will be celebrating the Easter Story together in an interactive worship drama.

Everyone is encouraged to attend these special times of worship and invite family and friends to participate with us as we watch the remarkable story of our Lord unfold. Together, we will join Jesus and His apostles on the mountainside and in the temple courts—and then later in the upper room, when we will celebrate the Lord’s Supper. We’ll watch as Jesus is betrayed and arrested in the Garden, tried before Pilate, and then scourged, crucified and buried. Finally, we will see through the eyes of the apostles the wonder of the empty tomb, the joy of our Lord’s return to His followers and the glory of His Ascension.

The Easter Story is moving and powerful each time it is told—encouraging all of us to become lifetime witnesses for the One who died in our place. Let’s reach out and invite everyone to share in this with us!

(Anyone interested in participating in the drama is encouraged to attend an open rehearsal this afternoon at 2 p.m. in the auditorium. Also, since we are encouraging family groups to attend together, there will be no Carpenter’s Corner, Canaan’s Land or HMS Discovery during the Easter Morning worship service.)

_______________________________________

Tell me if my assumption is wrong that Tom Haddon did forego teaching the “Homebuilders” class this quarter [since it’s not on the list of SS classes] in order to prepare for the production of this drama. But I must say that not teaching that class will somewhat slow down the efforts of the Change Movement advocates. If you didn’t know it, let me tell you this—“Homebuilders Class” is a Rick Warren Community Church Movement scheme that is prevalent in churches that have become or about to become Community Churches—Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist, etc.—targeting parents of a certain age group or generation that will be the “future” of the church.

Donnie

Donnie,

I think by "we will celebrate the Lord's Supper", they must mean figuratively as in observing it as it is done in the drama. See how it also says "we will join Jesus and His apostles on the mountainside and in the temple courts" — not meaning that we will all join the actors onstage, and then it says "then later in the upper room, when we will celebrate the Lord’s Supper". That's how I take it anyway.

Dotty

Donnie,

You could be right about the meaning of that sentence - we'll have to wait and see. My guess is that on Sunday morning, the congregational communion may coincide with the communion in the drama, but that at Saturday night's drama, communion will only take place in the drama, not among the congregation. I have no way of knowing, that's just my guess.

Dotty

This web site is "dis-graceful" in every sense of the word. This is just modern-day pharasaism at its worst. Read 1 Corinthians 13. Read Romans 14 and 15. Read 1st John. There is no indication here at all of love, forbearance, acceptance, grace, or respect for fellow christians or there liberty in christ. All I see is a "bitter root" that needs to be weeded.
"Beware of the leaven of the Pharasees"

Question...

Is it wrong to take the Lord's Supper on days other than Sunday? Why? Please feel free to use CENI.

Since Jesus instituted LS on Nisan 15 in the Jewish calendar, would the "example" give us the necessary right to do it on the same day? Nisan 15 begins at sundown April 23, 2005.

I hope for several creditable responses.

blessings
chuck

Many Jews think that they can peg the Sabbath to the exact MOON phase, and many believe that THEIR Sabbath is an even multiple of the SAME DAY God "rested." And some even believe that when God spoke things into existence He spoke HEBREW. However, there is no way to connect our first day with that of Christ at Creation or at the tomb. If you are a Jew in certain places then you can begin your FIRST DAY at sunset (you gotta watch that Sun). However, OUR first day begins at midnight so to take the Lord's Supper on Saturday (probably without consulting the astronomers) we are DELIBERATELY flaunting all of our history to PROVE to the "legalists" that they can DO AS I PLEASE. If The Lord's day begins at Sunset Saturday then the EVENING SERVICE will probably be on MONDAY. So, why do people want to DELIBERATELY DISCORD people other than to drive them into schizophrenia--a goal of postmodernism--to make OTHER changes easier and to PROVE that they have met a SUPERIOR POWER.

Whatever the season, the FEAST was the same: you CANNOT hold one of those in Nashville. You cannot go to Jerusalem, you have no priests to SLAY your innocent lamb, you DO have pseudo-Levitical Warrior Musicians BUT they could NEVER lead you into the presence of God or even into "church" as the Holy Place. You have HAD John the Baptist come and Mark 1f makes baptism the "most important part" or the beginning of the Gospel. Without John, Mark is a liar and the GOSPEL cannot have been preached without a Messiah competent to introduce a SPIRITUAL kingdom. In that kingdom we eat and drink with the Lord on the first or BEGINNING day of all of God's important work: the Sabbath is for REST and that has NEVER meant WORSHIP in the music, rhetoric, drama and TITHING sense. Sabbath is for SATURN where the Babylonians (who invented modern "Passover") where the AGENTS of the gods or "preachers" rested while the "audience" brings in the FIRST fruits and WORKS to entertain the gods (or their agents) where the SINGERS were always the 'harem of the gods."

The FEAST like the initial Passover was a festival of HORROR. The Israelites (not Jews) remained passive in their houses while the death and plague angels worked their horror. If John was a fraud, Mark was a Liar and Jesus incompetent then he is NOT the first born "lamb of God."

I believe that keeping these festivals--which were to MUSTER the warrior-aged males MAY represent a THREAT against the non-elect people. I believe that the performers (known as parasites and Pharisees) will wax worse and worse deliberately PROVING that they can do it without being burned in their presumed "Most Holy Places."

The word FEAST which John Mark Hicks wants to do to CELEBRATE the Lord's Supper so that the "gods" can swarm around like hungry flies is:

Chagag (h2287) khaw-gag'; a prim. root [comp. 2283, 2328; prop. to move in a circle, i. e. (spec.) to march in a sacred procession, to observe a festival; by impl. to be giddy: - celebrate, dance, (keep, hold) a (solemn) feast (holiday), reel to and fro.

And when he had brought him down, behold, they were spread abroad upon all the earth, eating and drinking, and dancing, because of all the great spoil that they had taken out of the land of the Philistines, and out of the land of Judah. 1S.30:16

The purpose may differ but the FEAST was quite different but the FEAST always meant to KILL and CONSUME the "innocent animal."

Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning. Ex.34:25

Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the FIRST day shall be a sabbath, and on the EIGHTH day shall be a sabbath. Le .23:39

SABBATH MEANS "WHATEVER YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT, DON'T DO IT."

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zec.14:16

And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zec.14:18

FEAST means more than just KILLING and ROASTING and EATING the innocent Lamb: You remember that Jesus fooled the fools by telling the DISCIPLES that they must EAT his WORDS as Spirit and Life. They were not to hold their musical MOCKING which the Jewish leaders did with the Levitical Warrior Musicians.

Chaga (h2283) khaw-gaw'; from an unused root mean. to revolve [comp. 2287]; prop. vertigo, i. e. (fig.) fear: - terror.

And the land of Judah shall be a TERROR unto EGYPT, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the Lord of hosts, which he hath determined against it. Is.19:17

Chag (h2282) khag; or 2283 khawg; from 2287; a festival, or a VICTIM thereof: - (solemn) feast (day), sacrifice, solemnity.

When you keep Passover and pour out a cup for ELIJAH whom we have proven was JOHN the Baptist come as Forerunner, you are STILL denying that God in Jesus Christ WAS and IS the true Passover. If you remember I told you that when Israel rose up to PLAY it was like a CHAG with the Dirty Dancing component which David confessed was to MAKE HIMSELF VILE. The Lord's Supper is Biblically (if that means anything) to showing forth or PREACHING the DEATH of Christ. You simply DO NOT celebrate this event UNLESS you deny that it has happened or unless you still hate the idea of God in the Flesh.

Because they PRACTICED a pagan RITUAL they were SWEPT INTO paganism and God TURNED THEM OVER to worship the Starry Host. We have noted that from that time forward UNTIL they turned to Christ they Israelite leaders were BLINDED when the Old Testament was read. I submit that keeping the Israelite PASSOVER which prefigured the killing of the Lamb of God is the SAME prayer to be able to worship the STARRY HOST which was Molech and/or Chiun or SATURN who is Chaldee 666 worshipped by MUSIC where a priesthood will BURN innocent children and interpret the screams as a BETTER message from Molech.

Egypt, Assyria and Judah typified by the LAW, SLAVERY, MOUNT SINAI, HAGAR and JERUSALEM are the true SODOM and God will treat them just they way they treated their own children and BURN them up to the same BEAT of musical instruments.

The Septuagint (the one Jesus quoted) reads:

Must ye always rejoice, and go into my holy places continually, as they that keep a FEAST? and must ye go with a pipe, as those that rejoice into the mountain of the Lord, to the God of Israel Isaiah 30:29 LXX

The VICTIM processions with instrumental music and DIZZY DANCING which were apparently also DIRTY dancing was to GO burn babies at their HOLY CITY at a place called Topheth (Tambourine) or HELL
.

The Israelites at Mount Sinai were worshiping the "god" or bull (demon spirit) as the engaged in a charismatic (perverted) ritual PRETENDING that the works of their own hands would be a better deal than God had offered them. God TURNED them over to the same RITUAL they had been seduced into PRACTICING and to try to PRACTICE any of the Post-Mount Sinai loss of THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT and the substitution of THE BOOK OF THE LAW THE BOOK OF THE LAW is a 100% MARK that you have NOT turned to Christ as the TRUE Passover. The RITUALS or MAD CELEBRATIONS are to PROVE that you do not have the PLEDGE from God of A holy spirit or A clear conscience.

"The ritual observances at the Hebrew and at a Canaanite sanctuary were so similar that to the mass of the people Jehovah worship and Baal worship were not separated by any well-marked line...

A sacrifice was a public ceremony of a township or clan... Then the crowds streamed into the sanctuary from all sides, dressed in their gayest attire, marching joyfully to the sound of music, and bearing with them not only the victims appointed for sacrifice, but store of bread and wine set forth the feast... Universal hilarity prevailed." (Gurney, O.R., Some Aspects of Hittite Religion, p. 37, Oxford University Press, 1977) [GAY has always meant GAY]

"Many of the Psalms are expressive of the parade dance, or dance procession, in a way which show it to have been the characteristic form of the festival (Psalms 30:12, 87:7, 149:3, 150:4; Is. 30:29) and that this was where many of the Psalms were used." ( W. O. E. Osterley, The Sacred Dance (Cambridge: N. P., 1923), p. 94)

Let them praise {boast, make fool, celebrate) his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp. Psa 149:3

For the Lord taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation. Psa 149:4

Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Psa 149:5

Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; Psa 149:6

If you PRAISE or BOAST or make yourself VILE claiming that "My god can destroy your god" then you are a braggart hoping to DEFEAT the enemy by overpowering them with SIGHT and SOUND both of which fuel the word LUCIFER.

The more the FRIENDS of Jesus Christ who believe that HE WAS and IS the one and only Messiah are taunted the MORE they will become outrageous and make themselves a LAUGHINGSTOCK just as at Mount Sinai where the Israelites ALSO repudiated the SYMBOLIC Lamb of God as the ONLY Spirit God, the Water, the Manna, the Rock and the Pillar.

However, as a PUNISHMENT for the religious processions (reenactments) the Septuagint makes it clear that the SACRIFICES were given as PUNISHMENT for a people who refused to HEAR the Word of God and were ABANDONED to worship the pagan gods they LUSTED after. That is why MUSIC and PLAY (drama) is the MARK of total, beyond redemption lostness.

and the Lord shall make his glorious voice to be heard and the wrath of his arm, to make a display with wrath and anger and devouring flame: he shall lighten terribly, and his wrath shall be as water and violent hail. Isaiah 30:30 LXX

For by the voice of the Lord the Assyrians shall be overcome, even by the stroke where with he shall smite them. Isaiah 30:31 LXX

And it shall happen to him from every side, that they from whom their hope of assistance was, in which he trusted, themselves shall war against him in turn with drums and with harp. Isaiah 30:32 LXX

And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the Lord shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps:and in battles of shaking will he fight with it. Isaiah 30:32KJV

God uses that which people LUST AFTER to destroy them. In the Dead Sea Scrolls a Psalm like Psalm 41 is translated to define the idea that Judas will not triumph over Jesus. They attacked Jesus as Beliar, Beelzebub or Satan using instrumental music to panic Him or "melt His heart." In the end, the military weapons will be turned on those who refused to trust in God's Word.

For thou shalt be required before thy time: has it been prepared for thee also to reign? nay, God has prepared for thee a deep trench, wood piled fire and much wood: the wrath of the Lord shall be as a trench kindled with sulphur. Isaiah 30:33 LXX

For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large:
the pile thereof is fire and much wood;
the breath (divine inspiration, spirit) of the Lord,
like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it. 30:33KJV

The Hebrew word for CELEBRATE is SHABATH. This means REST, rid, be STILL which has about the same meaning as shabath.

Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth. Psa 46:10

God is not unjust therefore He gives His permissive will for the "new Davids" to induce a spirit of demonism so that he "prophesies" meaning musically and making himself VILE so his soldiers despised Saul but PROBABLY couldn't stop watching.

The FIRST word for CELEBRATE in the Greek dictionary is:

Bakch-euô, A. celebrate the mysteries of Bacchus, Hdt.4.79, 2. speak or act like one frenzy-stricken, inspire with frenzy, 2. INITIATE in the Bacchic mysteries

Jesus wouldn't BOW which means to sing and dance the WHIRLING or round dance with the "guys."

That is what the Jewish CLERGY hoped they could do to Jesus because their HOPED FOR Messiah was Dionysus of the Abomination of Desolation Fame in the temple.

Then there is SINGING and the BOW connection:

Aeidô of all kinds of vocal sounds, crow as cocks, twang, of the bow-string, 'to crow too soon', vie with one in singing, , sing, praise, celebrate.

Singing often appears with TETTIX which means LOCUSTS. All of the MARKS are in place and when you see the GUYS singing and dancing you KNOW that something is being EXPOSED before a Holy God.

Ken

Ken,

I couldn't find the answer to the question. Maybe you didn't try. Here it is again.



Question...

Is it wrong to take the Lord's Supper on days other than Sunday? Why? Please feel free to use CENI.

If possible, could you focus on just this one question?

Any others that would like to comment would be appreciated.

chuck

By example, the Lord's Supper was observed on Thursday Night before the Crucifixion.

This verse points out it was done at night:

1CO 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

Then is says "WHENEVER" you eat this bread and drink this cup". That statement would lead me to believe it is OK to observe the Lord's Supper "whenever", as long as our heart and mind is in the right place.

From Webster's: when·ev·er Pronunciation: hwe-'ne-v&r, we-, (h)w&- Function: conjunction: at any or every time that

EW

We are to SHOW FORTH His death and He did not die on Sunday but the Lord's Supper is to remember His DEATH. Maybe we should assemble on the 5th day of the week? No, the institution is not the eating in the kingdom because the Kingdom had not come with power yet.

Jesus did not eat or drink the INSTITUTIONAL bread and juice but promised to do so in the kingdom. We know that the kingdom for now is the church where Jesus promised to gather with the twos and threes so that they could "come learn of me." Jesus figuratively breaks the bread as word or it isn't His synagogue: He breaks the bread symbolically or it isn't His body. The conservative CHANGLINGS have no authority to CALL the assembly on any other time and the LIBERTY articulated by Paul was to "don't forsake ASSEMBLING YOUR SELVES."

That is the only stated assembly (synagogue) for the stated purpose we have any knowledge of. Come together is sunerchomai a form of the word SYNAGOGUE. It is a fact that the synagogue was often open for anyone to come and learn from the elders who WERE competent Bible scholers. However, they met specificially on the Sabbath to LEARN.

Sunday is ONE of the SABBATH and was chosen because BELIEVERS have entered into their REST if they are IN Christ. The first day in the almost universal seven-day cycle was when God BEGAN His creative work and--after the REST--when His work continued in ruling His creation.

11:20 When ye come [synagogue] together therefore into one place, this is NOT to eat the Lords supper.

The proof that they had not assembled for the stated purpose to observe the Lord's Supper is that they--contrary to Christ--made it into a common meal where they ATE and drank at THEIR table rather than the Lord's Table where HE serves.

Acts 20:7 and facts leading up to the ASSEMBLY shows that Paul didn't starve all week but waited for the Lord's Day when he could meet with the church to eat the Lord's Table. It is true that Paul went downstairs and took some food before he returned but the Lord's Supper was not the food available in houses where they met. Almost concurrent history of church scholars understood the Lord's Supper to be the purpose for meeting on the Lord's Day.

The Bible doesn't do MULTIPLE CHOICE: the word CANNOT be honestly translated as WHENEVER:

1 Cor 11:26KJV, NAS, NKJV, RSV, LIV (every time) For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lords death till he come.

The word as OFTEN is not whenever but:

Pollakis (g4178) pol-lak'-is; mult. adv. from 4183; many times, i.e. frequently: - oft (-en, -entimes, -times).

g4183 is used by Paul

1Co.12:12 For as the body is one, and hath MANY members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

One of the earliest writings shows that THEY understood the Bible to teach the FIRST day of the week long before Constantine gave a second day of rest to Christians. Where wine was used--or even consumed--it was highly dilluted with water unless one wanted to get drunk.

Justin Martyr: Chapter LXVII.-Weekly Worship of the Christians.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost.

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

EVERYONE agrees that it is acceptable to do this on the FIRST DAY and I believe that it has great symbolic meaning where we all drink and eat of one loaf and sing with one MIND and one MOUTH "that which is written." That BINDS and BONDS the body. I am not aware of anyone advocating CHANGING except those who feel that they, like the original disciples, are called on to "work out our own" Scriptures for our time and place.

So, I don't believe that the command is WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT but "on the Lord's Day" because we have no HIGHER AUTHORITY than the Bible. And the CHANGLINGS have nothing but their own musings as authority and the whiney-piney mentality about ALL of God's word--like my little children used to say: "But, I don't hav-ta."

Ken

Chuck, I was trying to lay a foundation about the SABBATH. Neo-Judaizers feel drawn to the Lord's Supper on the SABBATH and I don't think you can make the case that Saturn's day is the Lord's Day. The Sabbath as well as the tithe are Babylonian derived when thought of as a day of WORSHIP. In God's system the Sabbath is a day of REST. IF you are going to lump the Sabbath to a WORSHIP ritual then you have BROKEN it many times over. For instance, SABBATH includes "sending ministers." Sabbath means DON'T work and the Lord knows that the itty-bitzy performers just WORK their little rear off trying to make us WORSHIP them. The SABBATH was to quarantine God's people FROM the rituals of the NATIONS which was the Goyim which was to say Canaanite or Babylonian because THAT was their PRAYER at Mount Sinai and when the FIRED God and demanded a "preacher like the nations" to be a king over us.

Again, IF you combine the rationale of the SABBATH with the LORD'S DAY then you are guilty of terminal ignorance at best. The Law of the holy convocation and ALL of the evidence in commands, examples and inferences is to READ or REHEARSE whatever revealed Word of God you have available or whatever ANY competent Levite or priest as TEACHER could recite from memory because they had SPOKEN the text one to another as SCHOOL of the Bible for the purpose of MEMORIZING the text. Paul DIRECTLY COMMANDED the Romans (15), Ephesians (5) and Colossians (3) to SPEAK with one MIND and ONE VOICE "that which is written" or "Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" which Keith CANNOT compose. Paul directly commanded Timothy both to LABOR to be able to serve AGAPE as well as give attendance to the (public) reading of the WORD. Exhortation and Doctrine is NOT preaching. Therefore, combining the Supper to remember the LORD with a ritual to SMACK THE PERFORMERS into your teeth IS a sin or sin does not exist.

CAN YOU EAT THE LORD'S SUPPER ANY OTHER DAY? I don't intend to go there: I don't believe a DISCIPLE does WHAT IF I violate a clear Biblical statement of WHEN the Supper was observed, the overwhelming evidence that when God WORKS He begins on the FIRST DAY and the 100% historical evidence that they MET on the Lord's Day TO EAT THE LORD'S SUPPER.

Now, you may dredge up the Catholic "Eucharist" on every day of the week and in early history ESPECIALLY on the Sabbath. But, the Eucharist is part of the MASS in which (like Baptist's believer's baptism) Christ is separated BODY from LITERAL BLOOD over and over and over. If you will review the irrational rationale of the Hicks and Shelly's etal you will discover that they are NOT pushing the Lord's Supper as a simple memorial or showing forth or preaching the DEATH of God in Christ: the are promoting HOLY COMMUNION as well as the EUCHARIST.

As John Mark Hicks makes it perfectly clear, these people envision the SUPPER as an OLD COVENANT Sacrificial Feastival with JUBILATING. This is the meaning of MOST of Catholicism where the PRIESTHOOD is the same Levitical priesthood, the "musicians" are Levitical and the EUCHARIST insists that Christ must continued to be sacrificed until He comes again.

I tremble at the thought of: "Wonner if I can get away with this?" You know when you begin that the REASON is to upset people to FACILITATE change to a shotgun marriage with Catholicism which is a neo-Judaism which, like the literal Passover, denies the finished work of God in Christ. This is like tenderizing a steak so that the opposition has no moral fiber and can be manipulated into DOING the supper on Wednesday night JUST to prove that we can get away with it and to PROVE that the Bible is NOT binding for faith and practice.

I see the FIRST DAY as the operative word from the beginning of CREATION for all of God's important events: this is often called the EIGHTH DAY which is the next FIRST DAY. On the other VERY LARGE HAND the word SABBATH has nothing to say about PLENARY SESSIONS of the church for PERFORMING worship for the PAYING AUDIENCE. Rest means rest and worship is NOT rest: I say that what the children call WORSHIP and a Babylonian organizational structure is THE MAIN REASON for the stress and anxiety which Dr. Crump has to help. REST which Jesus died to give means JUST STOP IT. The BURDEN LADEN was "spiritual anxiety created by religious ritual."

The SABBATH was a BAD OMEN and SATURN (Chaldee 666) was, like the full moon, the time when demonic religions prowled around. That is why God essentially PUT THEM IN THEIR HOUSES and outlawed the TRAVEL required to the local Pagan Worship Assemblies.

YOU can do whatever you wish: my job is to tell you what I think the Bible says: THAT is the meaning of worship if you ask any LITERATE Rabbi and THAT is why most Jews have no interest in a BABYLONIAN festival with a BABYLONIAN tithe.

MY QUESTION TO YOU IS WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO CHANGE SOMETHING WHICH HAS BOUND CHRISTIANS TOGETHER FOR 2,000 YEARS?

Ken

Chuck, I was trying to lay a foundation about the SABBATH. Neo-Judaizers feel drawn to the Lord's Supper on the SABBATH and I don't think you can make the case that Saturn's day is the Lord's Day. The Sabbath as well as the tithe are Babylonian derived when thought of as a day of WORSHIP. In God's system the Sabbath is a day of REST. IF you are going to lump the Sabbath to a WORSHIP ritual then you have BROKEN it many times over. For instance, SABBATH precludes "sending ministers." Sabbath means DON'T work and the Lord knows that the itzy-bitzy performers just WORK their little rear off trying to make us WORSHIP them. The SABBATH was to quarantine God's people FROM the rituals of the NATIONS which was the Goyim which was to say Canaanite or Babylonian because THAT was their PRAYER at Mount Sinai and when they FIRED God and demanded a "preacher like the nations" to be a king over us.

Again, IF you combine the rationale of the SABBATH with the LORD'S DAY then you are guilty of terminal ignorance at best. The Law of the holy convocation and ALL of the evidence in commands, examples and inferences is to READ or REHEARSE whatever revealed Word of God you have available or whatever ANY competent Levite or priest as TEACHER could recite from memory because they had SPOKEN the text one to another as SCHOOL of the Bible for the purpose of MEMORIZING the text. Paul DIRECTLY COMMANDED the Romans (15), Ephesians (5) and Colossians (3) to SPEAK with one MIND and ONE VOICE "that which is written" or "Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" which Keith CANNOT compose. Paul directly commanded Timothy both to LABOR to be able to serve AGAPE as well as give attendance to the (public) reading of the WORD. Exhortation and Doctrine is NOT preaching. Therefore, combining the Supper to remember the LORD with a ritual to SMACK THE PERFORMERS into your teeth IS a sin or sin does not exist.

CAN YOU EAT THE LORD'S SUPPER ANY OTHER DAY? I don't intend to go there: I don't believe a DISCIPLE does WHAT IF I violate a The overwhelming evidence that when God WORKS He begins on the FIRST DAY and the 100% historical evidence that they MET on the Lord's Day TO EAT THE LORD'S SUPPER.

Now, you may dredge up the Catholic "Eucharist" on every day of the week and in early history ESPECIALLY on the Sabbath. But, the Eucharist is part of the MASS in which (like Baptist's believer's baptism) Christ is separated BODY from LITERAL BLOOD over and over and over. If you will review the irrational rationale of the Hicks and Shelly's etal you will discover that they are NOT pushing the Lord's Supper as a simple memorial or showing forth or preaching the DEATH of God in Christ: the are promoting HOLY COMMUNION as well as the EUCHARIST.

As John Mark Hicks makes it perfectly clear, these people envision the SUPPER as an OLD COVENANT Sacrificial Feastival with JUBILATING. This is the meaning of MOST of Catholicism where the PRIESTHOOD is the same Levitical priesthood, the "musicians" are Levitical and the EUCHARIST insists that Christ must continued to be sacrificed until He comes again.

I tremble at the thought of: "Wonner if I can get away with this?" You know when you begin, that the REASON is to upset people to FACILITATE change to a shotgun marriage with Catholicism which is a neo-Judaism which, like the literal Passover, denies the finished work of God in Christ. This is like tenderizing a steak so that the opposition has no moral fiber and can be manipulated into DOING the supper on Wednesday night JUST to prove that we can get away with it and to PROVE that the Bible is NOT binding for faith and practice.

TAKE IT AS A GIVEN: THEY NEVER PROMOTE SABBATH DAY WORSHIP UNTIL THEY HAVE ASSURED YOU THAT ONLY SEVEN FACTS ABOUT JESUS IN THE GOSPELS IS VALID FOR FAITH AND PRACTICE: THE EPISTLES ARE OUT AND ARE DEFINED AS THE DIVISIVE OPINIONS OF DIVIDED APOSTLES. THEN, WHEN THEY ARE SO BENT ON CHANGING THINGS, SCRIPTURES MAKE IT CLEAR THAT GOD IS SENDING THEM A STRONG DELUSION AND MAKING THEM INTO BUFFOONS WHICH IS THE MEANING OF "POURING OUT HIS WRATH."

I see the FIRST DAY as the operative word from the beginning of CREATION for all of God's important events: this is often called the EIGHTH DAY which is the next FIRST DAY. On the other VERY LARGE HAND the word SABBATH has nothing to say about PLENARY SESSIONS of the church for PERFORMING worship for the PAYING AUDIENCE. Rest means rest and worship is NOT rest: I say that what the children call WORSHIP and a Babylonian organizational structure is THE MAIN REASON for the stress and anxiety which Dr. Crump has to help. REST which Jesus died to give means JUST STOP IT. The BURDEN LADEN was "spiritual anxiety created by religious ritual."

The SABBATH was a BAD OMEN and SATURN (Chaldee 666) was, like the full moon, the time when demonic religions prowled around. That is why God essentially PUT THEM IN THEIR HOUSES and outlawed the TRAVEL required to the local Pagan Worship Assemblies.

YOU can do whatever you wish: my job is to tell you what I think the Bible says: THAT is the meaning of worship if you ask any LITERATE Rabbi and THAT is why most Jews have no interest in a BABYLONIAN festival with a BABYLONIAN tithe. Nor will they stream into churches while you combile the HOLY COMMUNION or Eucharist with the HOLY TRINITY which any literate Jew would not tolerate.

MY QUESTION TO YOU IS WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO CHANGE SOMETHING WHICH HAS BOUND CHRISTIANS TOGETHER FOR 2,000 YEARS? EVERYONE knows that when they begin this whiney-piney garbage THEY know that "postmodernism" has given them PERMISSION to DELIBERATELY SOW DISCORD and offend as many of these little ones as they can get they money-grubbing hands on.

IF they are right and the SCRIPTURES are wrong and GOD IN CHRIST was incompetent and all of church history is wrong and the "sowing discord" thing is a lie and God ACTUALLY WANTS them to offend the old "owners" then they have hit a home run.

If, however, they are wrong on ONE POINT, then the Bible makes it clear that they are the end time APOLLO or abaddon or Apollyon who has unleashed the LOCUSTS or musical performers to TRIBULATE people and 'wear out the saints' of God. The CATCH however is that if the book of Revelation IS TRUE then the Locusts under Satan as "musical worship teams" where LUCIFER IS ZOE don't have MUCH LUCK because they have MARKED and taken captive those who are NOT MARKED with the Word and the music is actually HOLDING THEM CAPTIVE. We know--as a science-acoustics type-that MUSIC hurts real bad and the MARK (ha, ha) is that like Cocaine it SEEMS like fun until body parts begin to fall off and your ASSOCIATES begin to make you break out with weeping sores. Rev 16:12.

Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

A frog is a MARSH LEAPER or maybe that slimy stuff which spews out of the mouth of a FALSE PROFIT when he gets all charismatic. You know what I mean: they ACTUALLY FROTH at the mouth. The FROG SPIRITS were also called QUACKS.

Peter claimed that the aposles were EYE WITNESSES of Christ and His teachings, had been given supernatural power and would leave us a REMEMBRANCE of what happened. The REASON for not venturing beyond what was written was BECAUSE the false prophets CANNOT ride on people without TOTALLY DISQUALIFYING both Christ and the record of His Work. If THESE stick with the WORD and THOSE try to do an end run then you KNOW that THESE cannot be the FALSE PROFITS.

Ken

Ken,

Where can you show me in scripture that the 1st day of the week was authorized for the LS?

I appreciate your knowledge of church history. I need to get into it some more myself. As we see polution in the body begin in Acts, and several other letters are written to get the body back in line, how do we know which church history should have any bearing on how we live today? I understand that it all needs to be filtered through the Word. I just have some difficulty reading into, or ignoring what is written, based on some imaginary process. It just doesn't seem consistent to me.

Did you notice in your Justin Martyr quote that he mentioned Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the same sentence? How could this be if they are not distinctly separate manifestations of the Only Living God?

blessings
chuck

Ken,

Where can you show me in scripture that the 1st day of the week was authorized for the LS?

Chuck I believe that you want a LEGALISTIC COMMAND: thou shalt meet on the first day of the week to eat the Lord's Supper. I have listed a few of the important events to prove to those with ears that God made the FIRST day of the week an important event: AFTER you have rested the FIRST thing to begin the week is to put Lord Jesus FIRST and remember His Death. I don't have the energy to post the data but look here for some of the FIRST DAY FACTS.

http://www.piney.com/FathLaodConstSabbath.html

Did you notice in your Justin Martyr quote that he mentioned Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the same sentence? How could this be if they are not distinctly separate manifestations of the Only Living God?

Yes, I noticed that the Bible does that also and I do too but that does not make God and His Spirit two separated PERSONS (as in people.) I have a spirit which Paul used as an analogy to describe the Holy Spirit as the Mind of Christ. However, WE are not two separate people except on my outbreak of schizophrenia. Old joke my niece nurse told me: "It is better to be schizophrenic than to have no friends at all."

When the SPIRIT Lord appeared to Paul He said: "I am Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus was the man or "body prepared for me" where God FULLY dwelled. The Christ of God returned to His Spirit world but when He deals with us it is as Jehovah- Saves. That is why you never TRUST anyone who trafficks in some supernatural magic such as other humans to bring you into the presence of God with MUSIC.

Now, take a look as some more JUSTIN which would be more profitable and less expensive then preachery goolash. You will NEVER find a hint evey by "trinitarian speakers" of anyone so gross as to suggest that the Godhead is three separated PEOPLE. I told you that this is--as far as I can determine--the latter day invention of H. Leo boles, Lipscomb and the Gospel Advocate in about 1942. The ANTI-Shellyites have nevertheless been contaminated by their same THREE PEOPLE or polytheism which John Mark Hicks ascribes to Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly etal as CHANELLERS AND FACILITATORS of the heresy. This was proposed once before in history and was called tri-theism.

http://www.piney.com/The.Trinity.html

The trinity, Sabbath "worship," and tithing are ALL Babylonianisms: that's why God said REST and DID NOT say "WORSHIP."

Ken

Ken,

I'm sorry I did not make myself perfectly clear. Communication in this mode is difficult at best when moderators keep us from immediate discourse and interaction.

"Chuck I believe that you want a LEGALISTIC COMMAND: thou shalt meet on the first day of the week to eat the Lord's Supper."

I'm not interested in any legalistic commands. All I'm saying is that we see 1st day LS as well as other day possibilities based on the Word and our understanding. You may choose not to see it the way I do and vice versa. That should not prohibit our fellowship in any way, but conversly give us reason to extend liberty in areas of uncertainty.

"AFTER you have rested the FIRST thing to begin the week is to put Lord Jesus FIRST and remember His Death."

I believe that we must put Jesus first 24/7, others next, and self last. I remember the acrostic of JOY...Jesus, others, you.

Indulge me for a little humor...you seem to enjoy it as do I. One Sunday in the gathering at Madison the JOY acrostic was part of the lesson. As we were eating lunch my wife reflected on my Jewish upbringing and told me she knew what was wrong with Jews...why they were negative and miserable...you know what a kvetch is? a complainer. She used the acrostic example from the lesson. Since they don't have Jesus there is no JOY....only OY!

Regarding Holy Spirit, don't you believe that God as Spirit is actively at work today? I do. If I understand you correctly, the only active Spirit force today is satan. I understand you to say that the Word has empowered you with a mind of Christ. If you call it The Mind of Christ that leads me to believe the Spirit is alive and well dwelling in His children.

I've never been able to grasp the concept as presented called Trinity. It doesn't phase me how there can be multiple manifestations of God. He can do as He wishes. I'm just an observer and recipient of His love and concern for my well being. Sometimes it requires discipline for my actions to get me back on track. He's good at leading...I'm still working on the following. I know for sure that He is active in my life beyond my mental capabilities. You may call it the Mind of Christ..I call it being filled with the Spirit. As we submit, His power through our lives becomes evident.

How do you interpret the Hebrew word elohim? It's obviously a name for God with plural indication. It could be 2 or more. It doesn't matter much to me, just a topic for discussion and interpretation.

I'm devoting this year to studying more of the early church historians. I'm sure there is a wealth of knowledge available.

Could you give me a short study list from basic easy to understand info first?

blessings
chuck

Regarding Holy Spirit, don't you believe that God as Spirit is actively at work today? I do. If I understand you correctly, the only active Spirit force today is satan. I understand you to say that the Word has empowered you with a mind of Christ. If you call it The Mind of Christ that leads me to believe the Spirit is alive and well dwelling in His children.

I absolutely believe that God as Holy or Wholly Spirit and with the name of Jesus (Joshua as prophesied in Zechariah) is Jehovah- Saves. He is the same Jehovah of the Jews Who often is identified with a hyphenated description. Rather than a proper name this defines where, how and with whom He works. God to a latter day Jew would have a coherent meaning only if He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Because we operate consciously in our 4D world (including time) God tabernacled in Jesus of Nazareth (a body prepared for me) to relate with us in OUR world. I don't trust people who claim that they have taken on God as a PARTNER to get a new supply of Scripture.

Paul drew a comparison in 1 Cor 2 which goes like this:

God's Spirit
Is to God
What our spirit
is to us
But, we have the Mind of Christ

I don't deny the Holy Spirit: I deny that He is separated from God or His Christ. Spirit is the Spirit OF God or the Spirit OF Christ. In Romans 8 the phrase THE HOLY SPIRIT is not mentioned nor intended because in chapter 7 Paul contrasts His spirit to his body. The HOLY SPIRIT does not wage war on Paul's flesh or carnal nation: Paul's spirit which is almost identical to his MIND wars against his own flesh. The Holy Spirit does not GROAN but our spirits certainly do.

The concept of spiritual DISCERNMENT is so overwhelmingly taught and promised but I grasped it only after I took responsibility for being a first-order DISCIPLE. I assure you that I or any DISCIPLE of Christ can now see things which are HIDDEN IN PLAIN VIEW. The whole Jewish synagogue history is that of devotion to the WORD as it has been delivered throughout the Old and New Testaments. God's Word does not emit SPIRIT unless you just LEAVE IT ALONE and "give attendance to the public reading of the Word" and then explaining the doctrinal content and exhorting the disciples to follow what they have been PREACHED. If I was on the DOLE I could not say that and this is no doubt why Jesus claimed that Doctors of the Law take away the key to knowledge because they almost CANNOT tell the truth.

If Peter promised that we would get a GOD PERSON living in our CARNAL body as a result of baptism then he promised that Jesus Christ would invade our body. Because the SPIRIT dwells by faith He dwells in the heart or mind. Therefore, Walter Scott said out loud what most people believed until the invasion of the body snatchers and snake handlers with Phds. That is, God IS holy or WHOLLY Spirit and does not have real body parts, flesh, blood or bones. Secondly, to baptized believers the promise is of A holy spirit. The same Peter called it A good conscience which means consciousness which in the Greek means a CO-PERCEPTION. Paul in 2 Cor 3 said that the Jews were blinded at Mount Sinai when they STOPPED Moses from allowing God to speak. They would not be able to READ THE OLD TESTAMENT until they turned to Christ. Isaiah 48 shows that God so hides HIMSELF in pain view to fool the traffickers PRETENDING to speak for God--for a price.

That is why I can write SPEAK, SPEAK, SPEAK all day long where it is perfectly clear that SING AND MELODY is in the heart and UNregenerated people will read SING, SANG, SUNG; PLUCK, PLANK AND PLUCKED. Paul can say speaking with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH "that which is written" and they MUST hear "harmonize with Fanny Crosby or Twila Paris" or some "unfit for spiritual warfare male." Musicologists agree that "religious MUSIC is effeminate and effeminizing."

That DOES NOT mean that the gift of A holy spirit or A co-perception gives one the power to RECEIVE NEW revelations. It absolutely means what Jesus meant in Matthew 13 that truth had been revealed from the foundation of the world in PARABLES. That does not mean myths but in a language which hides spiritual truth from TRAFFICKERS. I am NOT a good person! However, That is the FIRST step to inviting God to Speak when I am silent. I am totally convinced that I have A holy spirit which means A co-perception of the Word of God. The meaning of baptism is NOT just a ticket to heaven but means that God SPRINKLES our human heart or spirit FROM an evil conscience SO THAT His Spirit or Mind will dwell within. That is like the Most Holy Place where the mercy seat is guarded by warriors and the WORD of God is hidden inside. No music-induced charismatic fit can remotely match the spiritual connection one feels with another WORLD than when you are allowed to peek behind the often-symbolic words. That is why no one can imagine the NASTY, gagging feeling I get and express when the church has been TAKEN CAPTIVE by people whom I am convinced CANNOT have A holy spirit. Being made fools of in great "revivalisms" is what MANUFACTURES unbelievers.

THAT is why it is so outrageous and CARNAL to have people PROMISE to lead you inside by hand-flinging, finger-snapping sermonizing or MUSICAL performance. Any Jewish kid would know that a Levitical Warrior musician would get himself killed if he tried it where it WOULD be possible in a physical temple. In Hezekiah's reform they couldn't even CLEAN OUT THE GARBAGE: that is why Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels.

I've never been able to grasp the concept as presented called Trinity. It doesn't phase me how there can be multiple manifestations of God. He can do as He wishes. I'm just an observer and recipient of His love and concern for my well being. Sometimes it requires discipline for my actions to get me back on track. He's good at leading...I'm still working on the following. I know for sure that He is active in my life beyond my mental capabilities. You may call it the Mind of Christ..I call it being filled with the Spirit. As we submit, His power through our lives becomes evident. .

You will NEVER be able to grasp that 3 equals 1. That is why it is such an outrageous thing that Trinitarians call it a MYSTERY which you have to accept against all evidence. However, Trinitarians NEVER slipped as far as Lucado, Boles, Shelly and probably half of "your preachers next door" as to say that God is a FAMILY of Gods. Or a committee of three, separated, free standing individuals with their OWN Spirit and dispensational QUALIFICATIONS. That is why they say that Jesus took a chair and the Spirit person is the "god of this dispensation." The overwhelming majority of church Fathers and restoration scholars used the concept of THOUGHT, WORD and BREATH. That is why Jesus as Son or Word spoke only what the FATHER or THOUGHT told Him to speak and He said that the Father was with Him. The neo-trinity is polytheism and is perhaps God's end-time joke on people who PURCHASED a degree from a Preacher Manufacturing Plant. The trinity concept of "persons" simply means that God is not an oblong blur, but is a complex Spiritual Being which we cannot even hallucinate except in the face of Jesus displaying the Mind of God.

How do you interpret the Hebrew word elohim? It's obviously a name for God with plural indication. It could be 2 or more. It doesn't matter much to me, just a topic for discussion and interpretation. .

EL is the common name for the "gods" of the world such as Baal. People like Moses were called gods or ELOHIM because of knowledge and authority. There were tens of thousands of ELs or plural ELOHIM. Marduke had 50 primary names. There are MANY elohim but YAWHEH is OUR ONLY Elohim. Symbolically Jehovah stood up in the concil of the "elohim." When people can pay a fortune to listen to a sermon so slick that it can escape mentioning the Bible you know that the elders have intentionally hired an ELOHIM to take credit from Jehovah- Saves.

Here is part of the Jewish Good confession and Jesus confirmed it:

Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey. Deut 6:3

Hear, O Israel: The Lord (Jehovah) our God (Elohenu) is one Lord: Deut 6:4
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Deut 6:5

I am the Lord (Jehovah), and there is none else, there is no God (Elohim) beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun (east), and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. Isaiah 45:5-6

For who is God (Elowah) save the Lord (Jehovah)? or who is a rock save our God (Elohim)? Psalm 18:31

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:4

Here is a review of H. Leo Boles book and the Gospel Advocate Sunday School material which spread the heresy around the South. The other link is a discussion of a challenge by a friend who thought that the FAMILY OF GOD arrived before 1942 (as a historical happening)

http://www.piney.com/HsGdView.html

http://www.piney.com/HS.D.Lipscomb.html

No one in their right mind would suggest that Yahweh was a PARTY OF THREE Gods.

I'm devoting this year to studying more of the early church historians. I'm sure there is a wealth of knowledge available. . Could you give me a short study list from basic easy to understand info first? .

Here is Philip Schaff

http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/About.htm

Eusebius

http://www.ucalgary.ca/%7Evandersp/Courses/texts/eusebius/eusehe.html

Irenaeus and other historical writers which I have annotated and linked as time permits. This is where I DO church now:

http://www.piney.com/ChFathersAn.html

This will allow you to LEAP FROG all of the "scholars" because I have found it true enough to make it into a RULE: if some ACU or other scholar QUOTES some scholars they are LYING most of the time because they never read the originals. My so-far REFORMATION index is here:

http://www.piney.com/Reformation.html

Ken

Ken,

Thanks for the reference materials. They should keep me busy for a while.

blessings
chuck

Donnie and Ken, I have been hesitant to add anything to this discussion since I do not attend Madison, but in the interest of trying to help others understand what the Elders might be envisioning, let me add this point. Please do not forget that the early Christians followed the traditional Jewish designations for days. That is, the first day of the week for the early Christians began at sundown of what we would now consider to be Saturday night. Thus we see in Acts 20:7 that when the Christians came together to break bread and Paul preached until midnight, it was Saturday night and not Sunday night.

This raises the interesting question of whether it is MORE scriptural to partake of communion on Saturday night than Sunday morning (even though Sunday morning would still be considered part of the first day of the week under the Jewish system.)

We have noted that the phase of the moon was observed carefully and most observatories seem related. The Babylonians worshipped with eating, drinking, dancing and the important people RESTED while the AUDIENCE worked. The first day of the month was Sappatu and we call it Sabbath. The 'wandering stars' including the known planets, sun and moon were considered "gods."

The full moon--even today--had some magical power and they thought that agriculture was more productive and I have a neighbor who always plants in the SIGNS. In more primitive times they were convinced that if they held the "worship services" the gods would be appeased. In addition to the full moon the quarter moons were also magical but always held a sense of dread. No doubt, much "worship" is stimulated by dread or the word Jesus used for burden laden was "anxiety created by religious ritual."

Sometimes the quarter moons fell on the EIGHTH or FIRST day. This is perhaps why the holy convocations for reading or rehearsing the Word of God included both the first and seventh days. I believe in time the confusion led to having the Sabbath (rest) every seventh day. Of course, without the MOON WORSHIP no one could say when the FIRST day began. It didn't matter because it was a seven-day cycle. They met four times during the month as the Sabbaths are so defined (I believe)

I have posted some facts which show the importance of the first day of the week here:

http://www.piney-2.com/FathLaodConstSabbath.html

I think that the logic is that Paul met with the people at Night and he would be ready to travel in the morning. There would be no restrictions about travel on the first day and for most people Sunday was the FIRST DAY of the work week. That frees us from preachers who claim that Paul probably began preaching at 10 in the morning and continued until midnight! The fact is he DIDN'T PREACH but dialoged. No doubt the people wanted to hear from Paul but this was called COMMUNING or discussing and not "preaching" which came much later and was identified as one of the early heresies. However, that is human reasoning. The fact is that the records which come shortly after this shows that the FIRST DAY was not SABBATH NIGHT but our Sunday. That was the only reason Constantine gave an extra day off which was Sunday.

Because the first day of the week was NOT a day of rest until Constantine, the people worked ALL DAY Sunday. I believe that history shows that they often met in the evening: they would have rest from THEIR work and Paul would have rest from HIS work and PAUL preached when everyone had time which was almost certain to be in the evening. His example to the Thessalonians was to the PREACHERS when he commanded and set the example: "If they will not work neither shall they eat."

If they met Saturday it would be after sunset and would not be called DAY. Rather, I believe that Luke would have written when the Sabbath was ended or something similar. If those I believe to be Judaizers pick Saturday night and want to be LEGAL then they will call off the Sunday Night after sunset meeting. Jesus called the light part DAY. When John was IN THE SPIRIT on the Lord's Day he was able to SEE. I accept that DAY means DAY and not NIGHT. People could meet Sunday night without watching for the Sun and it might be day or evening.

However, I believe that the day begins whenever the local authorities say that it begins. That would free us from the superstitious keeping of days, months and Sabbaths. Our first day begins at midnight and the events of the resurrection would have Jesus resurrected probably before sunrise because:

AND when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. Mk 16:1

And very early in the morning, the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. Mk.16:2

Of course, at the rising of the sun Jesus was already gone. He met the men leaving Jerusalem having heard of the resurrection. He identified Himself in the BREAKING OF BREAD on the first day of the week. The bread is the common "unyeasted" bread Jesus used to institute the Lord's Supper and was the common fare unless you had more money. It is not said that Jesus ATE because He would begin eating with the Apostles IN THE KINGDOM and the Bible is absolutely certain that the Church was the earthly part of God's eternal kingdom. I believe that Jesus makes himself known to us when we gather with Him and GRIEVE OUT A HYMN rather than jubilate and celebrate. It is a MARK.

This I am pretty sure of: there is no reason to change to what I believe to be SABBATH WORSHIP rather than SABBATH REST other than to deliberately sow discord and CONDITION people to believing that God HAS NO RULES. Contrary to the belief of many Jews, our Sabbath is not an even multiple of the day God RESTED (and did not worship). The phase of the moon would demand that the Sabbath might fall on some other day. Again the LADED BURDEN is deliberately creating SPIRITUAL ANXIETY and I see NO OTHER role for the rabble crew whose profession is to "WEAR OUT THE SAINTS OF GOD." Not Me! I am FREE. However, for those who are intent on being CHANGELINGS I suppose it doesn't matter if they, as Rubel Shelly suggests, eat it with swine flesh in their teeth or John Mark Hicks who wants to FEED god as we "burns the fat."

In any case, I believe that the SABBATH day observing is a product of those who teach that because you cannot locate an electron by shooting another electron at it, this means that there is NOTHING CERTAIN, the Olden Bible has been plain shot away by out "evolving eyeballs" and WE gotta partner with God to "Work out our OWN Scriptures" with NO fear at all. I don't believe that you will find that they NEED any authority--like the first musical sectarianism--until challenged.

Justin Martyr notes:

http://www.piney.com/MuJustMar.html
Chapter XXII.-So Also Were Sacrifices and Oblations.

"And that you may learn that it was for the sins of your own nation, and for their idolatries and not because there was any necessity for such sacrifices, that they were likewise enjoined, listen to the manner in which He speaks of these by Amos, one of the twelve, saying:

`Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is this day of the Lord for you?

It is darkness and not light, as when a man flees from the face of a lion, and a bear meets him; and he goes into his house, and leans his hands against the wall, and the serpent bites him. Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness and not light, even very dark, and no brightness in it? I have hated, I have despised your feast-days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies:

wherefore, though ye offer Me your burnt-offerings and sacrifices, I will not accept them; neither will I regard the peace-offerings of your presence.

Take thou away from Me the multitude of thy songs and psalms; I will not hear thine instruments. BUT let judgment be rolled down as water, and righteousness as an impassable torrent.

Have ye offered unto Me victims and sacrifices in the wilderness, O house of Israel? saith the Lord. And have ye taken up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Raphan, the figures which ye made for yourselves? [They were not commanded to sacrifice until God turned them over to worship the starry host (Acts 7 and others). However, they worshipped the Astral gods just as they did where Amos is condemning MUSIC as part of false sabbaths.]

And I will carry you away beyond Damascus, saith the Lord, whose name is the Almighty God. Woe to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria:

those who are named among the chiefs have PLUCK away the first-fruits of the nations: the house of Israel have entered for themselves.

Today, Rubel Shelly claims their right to what they were doing including TITHING. They were just not AUTHENTICALLY RELATIONAL! Please don't bow down and let these hirelings PLUCK any MONEY. God will not hold you guiltless if you are an ENABLER

http://www.piney-2.com/RS.Righteousness.html

Pass all of you unto Calneh, and see; and from thence go ye unto Hamath the great, and go down thence to Gath of the strangers, the noblest of all these kingdoms, if their boundaries are greater than your boundaries.

SABBATH meant to REST and read or rehearse the WORD of God: a FALSE Sabbath is one where you do the following:

Ye who come to the evil day, who are approaching, and who hold to false Sabbaths; who lie on beds of ivory, and are at ease upon their couches; who eat the lambs out of the flock, and the sucking calves out of the midst of the herd;

who applaud at the
sound of the musical instruments;
they reckon them as stable,
and not as fleeting,

who drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments, but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph.

Wherefore now they shall be captives, among the first of the nobles who are carried away; and the house of evil-doers shall be removed, and the neighing of horses shall be taken away from Ephraim.' ( Amos v. 18 to end, vi. 1-7.) And again by Jeremiah:

Collect your flesh, and sacrifices, and eat: for concerning neither sacrifices nor libations did I command your fathers in the day in which I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt.' Jer. vii. 21 f.

And again by David, in the forty-ninth Psalm, He thus said: `The God of gods, the Lord hath spoken, and called the earth, from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof. Out of Zion is the perfection of His beauty. God, even our God, shall come openly, and shall not keep silence.

Fire shall burn before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him. He shall call to the heavens above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people. Assemble to Him His saints; those that have made a covenant with Him by sacrifices. And the heavens shall declare His righteousness, for God is judge.

Hear, O My people, and I will speak to thee; O Israel, and I will testify to thee, I am God, even thy God. I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices; thy burnt-offerings are continually before me. I will take no bullocks out of thy house, nor he-goats out of thy folds: for all the beasts of the field are Mine, the herds and the oxen on the mountains.

I know all the fowls of the heavens,
and the beauty of the field is Mine.
If I were hungry, I would not tell thee; for the world is Mine, and the fulness thereof.
Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?

Offer unto God the sacrifice of praise, and pay thy vows unto the Most High, and call upon Me in the day of trouble, and I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify Me.

But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare My statutes, and to take My covenant into thy mouth?But thou hast hated instruction, and cast My words behind thee.

You have to FOLLOW those who have declared that the BIBLE is not our authority and lust to add the Old Testament Rituals (re an ACU writer) OR you can follow the Word as it has been taught and those who understood that the Lord's Day is not the Sabbath. The fact is that we are in AMERICA (tell those guys) and if THEY meet on Saturday night THEY are Sabbatarians. As Sabbath "worship" that goes beyond Judaism and is BABYLONIANISM.

Ken

I have read your comments and I must say you truly have an active imagination. You should spend more time in God's Word and less time inventing gossip.You need to go to your Father in prayer and ask for wisdom and discernment? It seems that you have allowed anger and bitterness to take control of you, it is evident in your writing. You are so far off the mark with regards to Tom Haddon and the Easter drama... makes me wonder what else you have exaggerated.

Donnie,

I suggest you arrange a meeting with Tom to get the answer to all these questions. That way the hearsay and gossip can stop.


MT 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that `every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Eddie,

That's a great suggestion. I'm sure if Donnie is not completely at ease with your suggestion, you and I would be glad to join him. Is it ok for me to speak for you in this matter, Eddie?

blessings
chuck

Donnie,

I am shocked at the mud slinging I am reading in these messages. That a child of God would hurl accusations at almost everyone who is trying to help smooth things over. Matthew 5:9 states "Blessed are the Peace Makers for they shall be called the children of God." So, you are blessed when you can show people how to cooperate instead of fighting, that's when you discover who you really are and that your place is in God's family. Eddie, gave you Matthew 18:15, but you want to shift the discussion to Susan and what she said to you. When will you finally realize you are not the judge, but Christ is? If you have a problem with a brother, go to HIM not the whole world. Thank God Almighty that your secret sins are not posted for all to see, but our God forgives those without display does He not? Lighten up and be as Christ prayed to the Father for His children, Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. It looks to me as though some are not willing to be an answer to Jesus Christ's prayer. Please remember Donnie that we all stand before Him in judgement, so reconcile yourself to your brother Tom and don't critize what the Holy Spirit is doing in His life.
In Him Alone,
Elaine
<}}}><

Elaine,

I’d like to address your post at the same time that I respond to Susan’s second post below—it should be dated March 9, 2005. Thanks.

Donnie

Donnie, one of the faults of a "Community Church" such as the one you attend is that the community gets to use the building for anything they please. It matters not that Christians in the past may have given beyond their means to build that building for the saints to meet in. The building now belongs to the "community" and anything goes! Some use it for a "private school" and contribute no "cash" toward the cost or value of the building that was build by the Saints and for the Saints. They have the idea that the "Church" is suppose to be in the "school business". Why not let those who want a "school" pay the price and build their own building to hold school in? Some talk about separation of Church and state when they cannot even understand the separation of a "worship event" and a "worldly event". Once the Christians have bought the building then the world comes in and takes it over!

Some insist that the "Community Church" building be used for the boy scouts. Where have the scouts ever spent one dollar, that someone did not give them, on a building to meet in? The "Commmunity Church" or some business must provide such.

One group says we must have a place to "play" and "exercise". We are not going to spent our money on such (or we think that is what our contribtion on Sundays is to be spent on), we will use the building paid for by the Christians. We will demand the "Community Church" to provide us such a place!

And now comes the "drama group" demanding a stage. Too cheap to go and rent a building in which to put on their play, so they make a demand on the "Community Church". Knowing also that few would come to watch their "acting" makes it more urgent to secure the "Community Church" building. Will this "drama group" make a contribution to help pay expenses for the building? Of course not. They think that their weekly contribution to the "church" makes it okay for them to use the building as they please! They have no idea that their Sunday offering is not to be used for such as "drama groups". Elders are to be "good stewards" with the money collected from the saints. God help them.

A lot of other things could be added to this list, all of which are good things within themselves, but they are not things to be found in the Lord's Church. They are things to be found only in the "Community Church" or "such like".

Before any writes me I want you to know that I know the difference between the "building" and the "Church". I know the "building" is not holy. But I also know that the "building" was purchased with money collected from the saints and for the work of the Church. This collection was made upon the first day of the week. Whenever I put my offering into the collection plate I do so with the understanding that I am giving it to the Lord and that the Elders will see to it that the Lord's money is use wisely

n Christian Love

Jimmy

Jimmy,

You've got it figured out brother. It looks like you have building and money on the brain. We just need to sell the building, share the profits or loss, and be like the real church and meet in the temple or houses. We have 3 or 4 temples over on west end. Do you think we could meet there maybe? How about your house, Jimmy? We do want to be the church like we read in the bible...don't we?

Our policies at Madison provide for autonomy. Where do you attend? Would you like to come worship with us sometime? How about Donnie and I coming to visit you? Just let us know.

blessings
chuck

Re:How about Donnie and I coming to visit you? Just let us know.

Chuck you would be welcome to visit anytime. I am sorry that you missed the meaning of my message. It is not about "buildings" or "money", it's about worship and a place of worship vs a place of "anything goes (which includes a litttle worship) and "who pays the bills".

Do you think that the contribution to the Lord should be used for the things mentioned in my message? Could you not think of better a better way to use the Lord's money, and it is the Lord's once it is given. Do you not believe that worship activities and worldly activities should be seperated?

I don't why you had to bring up the temples in West End. What are they about? What do they teach and believe?

I would have thought you would have mention the Grand Ole Opery since Madison seems to want to compete with them.

In Christian Love

Jimmy

This is my first time to hear of a "Church Mall". I know Christ is not the Head of a Mall! I hope we can realize that Christ gave His life for a much nobler cause.

As to the "first Sunday of each month" being set aside for the purpose of taking up two collections, I see two problems with that (maybe four, but I will only mention two of them).

1.) Instead of each Lord's Day being a special day of worship, we now have one Lord's Day of the month that trumps all the other Lord's Days of the month. We are ask to do more on this Lord's Day than any other Lord's Day of the month. Why? Where does anyone get the idea from the New Testament that one Lord's Day is more special than other Lord's Day? Does anyone even care? A "Community Church" does not care but surely Christian would care. Surely one who wants to follow the teachings of the New Testament will ask "Why is one Lord's Day of the month promoted over the other Lord's Days in the month. It is important to the Christian to observe all Lord's Days the same way (i.e., acts of worship).

2.)Love offering. All I can say about this is it is not authorized in the New Testament. Why do you have a "love offering"? It seems to me that the "love offering" is a way to make up for the mistakes of your "leaders". Yes I said your leaders. Simply stated your leaders have spent your congregation into debt! And if anyone should know how to take care of the Lord's money, it should be the Elders! Why did they do it? LUST OF THE EYES? LUST OF THE FLESH? Who knows! Was it for the "drama group", the "private school", the "exercise and play group"? Surely it was not for a "Church Mall"!!!

Some "Community Churches" and "such like" will have a special teacher or preacher come in and give a few lessons to the congregation about "their" giving and how "they" are to be good stewards of "their" money. However, in this case, it looks like someone should have come in and preached to your elders about how to take care of the Lord's money. Elders have over extended the congregations income and now they have turned to worldly ways to try to fix it. The congregation is not to be blamed for the short coming of the Elders. But the congregation should not be a party to the sin of acknowledging "special days" or "special contributions".

When the "First Sunday" of the month comes around you should worship the same as you have all of the other Sundays. When the plate is passed for the "love offering" let it be remembered that this is for the sins of the elders.

In Christian Love

Jimmy

Tom Haddon (and only Tom) is talking:

1. (Entertainment and HOLY entertainment - making words UNobjectionable.)

Last week we talked about Entertainment. --Uh, that's kind of where we started. What we said was

IF the word entertainment does mean to DIVERT ones attention,

to cause to be pleasurable, to cause to be interesting, then that is what we're here to do.

Um, and, and maybe it's time we STOPPED trying to HIDE from words because they SCARE people. [NOTE: ie the "human material?]

There comes a point when you have to have ENOUGH teaching on some thing where you realize that just because a WORD is maybe taken in a certain context, that that doesn't mean the word is wrong.

And sometimes instead of just not using it, what we need is teaching.

Does it mean we cannot we cannot use it for a WHILE?

But at the same time during that interim term we need to have teaching on it.

We need to talk about it. Well what is IT?

And soon as I say the word "HOLY ENTERTAINMENT" there would be some who would go "ouu--- ! You know I jus(t), jus(t), it sounds so----.

But in a way that's what we're here to do. We are here as Paul WOULD SAY,

"to TAKE YOUR EYES off what is SEEN and to put it on what? --- what is unseen".


We are here to DIVERT PEOPLE'S ATTENTION.

2. (Leadership)

We spoke about leadership. I'm not going to say any more about leadership except to say there are principles I'm talking about. They apply in our family, our business, and in our church.

There are people who HAVE to BE LED and our leaders have to know WHERE we're GOIN'-.

You know the most UNSETTLING times in any situation in life is when you THINK you are on a road one place and

all of a sudden things HAPPEN around you, and you may not understand them all and you could be totally wrong,

but all of a sudden you THINK you are on a train headed one place and,

but you THINK the train is going SOMEWHERE ELSE.

That's all I'm going to say about leadership.

3. (Leadership - phase 2)

Leaders in the world know how to direct a train.

They know how to get all the people ON BOARD.

When I say ALL, realize that there may be people who get off because they don't want to go to Cincinnati.

And we have to accept that.

There may be people who get off because they just want to go to Columbus and they don't want to go over here.

And we accept that.

The TRUE JESUS died to remove the monkey's off your back so that you don't HAVE to be anxious about ANYTHING. This guy is bragging about MANUFACTURING worry and DECEIVING THEM to take THEM where HE wants to GO.

Drama works because we KNOW that it ISN'T TRUE.

IF the word entertainment does mean to DIVERT ones attention,

to cause to be pleasurable, to cause to be interesting, then that is what we're here to do.

Just as GRACE is from CHARA charismatic and means sexual and homosexual unless you can LOOK where Paul points, the word ENTERTAINMENT is springloaded toward PLEASURING one another and Paul OUTLAWS that so that we can speak "that which is written" with one MOUTH and one MIND.

For even Christ PLEASED not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. Rom 15:3 [reproaches in the Hebrew means that they EXPOSED Jesus as indeed the PIPING, singing and dancing PROVES]

Aresko (g700) ar-es'-ko; prob. from 142 (through the idea of EXCITING EMOTION); to be agreeable (or by impl. to seek to be so): - please.

Airo (g142) ah'ee-ro; a prim. verb; to lift; by impl. to take up or away; fig. to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); spec. to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Heb. [comp. 5375] to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

These words are intimately connected to the office of DEMIGOGUE and the RESULT of getting you excited to lift you up was to CARRY YOU AWAY for their OWN USES. This word is HERESY and ODE SINGING in an external sense was the way they DUMBED YOU DOWN. Isn't it amazingly amazing that they DIVERT you guys into PAYING THE BILL and then confiscate YOUR property for THEIR purposes which are not REMOTELY related to the Assembly Christ died to build.

As the singers and musicians in the ANIMAL SACRIFICE RITUALS were named PARASITES, this creating SPIRITUAL ANXIETY meant ot LIFT YOU UP TO CUT YOUR THROAT.

Now SOME of you are destined to be the SACRIFICIAL VICTIMS as the END-TIME sacrificial religion is RESTORED. In many societies the SACRIFICIAL VICTIM thought that it was an honor to have his HEART CUT OUT. Among the Aztecs he played the flute and got all of the free girls he could tolerate for ONE YEAR.

For entertainment a primary word is KOITE which means sexual entercourse II. act of going to bed, III. lodging, entertainment, IV. of sexual connexion. skên-ê II. stage-building as background for plays, that which is actually represented on the stage, songs or odes sung by one of the actors standing on the stage (NOT by the chorus), 4. metaphor, stage-effect, acting, unreality, theatrical trick, deception.

We told you that Revelation 18 shows that the MUSICIANS of the holy whore will go back into sheol with her. The TECHNEE or Craftsmen (Koresh in Hebrew) were theater builders and STAGE MANAGERS. You remember that David Koresh got his 'church' burned in a type of hell?

Ishtar or Astarte or Inanna and Zoe were always called the HOLY WHORE. That is THE meaning of EASTER. Don't blame me that Paul connects EVE (Zoe in the Greek Version) with this WHOLLY SEDUCTION and therefore CAIN (from a musical note) was OF THAT WICKED ONE. What you are seeing is the EVE'S, MIRIAM'S AND ZOE'S being USED right in the presumed "holy places." Right on TIME: praise God.

UM! Know where YOU as human material are being LED: the ONLY Leaders in the church have the direct command to TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT. Holy and Entertainment do not CONNECT unless you missed YOUR train.

Believe it or not: I have lost all CARE because Christ has removed the BURDEN from me except to BEAR WITNESS of people removing the name CHRIST off their locator. THEY believe that they are making a SLINKING, HIDING movement to seduce the baptists but the baptists are doing the same thing. The fact is that when Jesus Christ REMOVES THE CANDLESTICK (7 spirits of Divine Knowledge) HE removes the NAME and YOU guys think that you are still on HIS TRAIN.

Ken

Ken,

You must have messed up your meds bro...you missed it completely. Donnie is referring to the drama presented last easter and the one scheduled for this easter. What Donnie has no knowledge of is who is involved in the drama. Tom is not in charge of either one. I don't believe he even has a part...could be wrong though.

Ken, do you feel it appropriate to quote something from a transcribed sunday school class from 5 years ago and present it out of context too? The 2 events have no connection other than they occur at Madison. You are hard to follow most times, but when you get the context and sequence out of kilter, you're down right irritating.

better luck next time...
chuck

I KNOW that I am irritating: Jesus gave me the Ministry of Irritation. Guess I Thought that was the Ministry of Irradiation. Noah irritated, Moses Irritated, Elijah irritated, Jesus irritated, Stephen irritated, Paul irritated John irritated, Peter irritated. IF I didn't irritate I would submit myself to my Newfoundland to be licked to death as a LOT of people will wake up and hang themselves and slowly twist in the wind until they rot and fall and their guts fall out for the MISERY they INTENTIONALLY bring on their CAPTIVES with the stated intention of DISCORDING them and driving them into schizophrenia.

One thing I don't do and THAT is hallucinate. At the same time you have a good if STUBBORN heart in trying to defend the indefensible. I quote from above:

"Come to the Table"
by Dawn Ferguson

Table. Altar. Which of the two images do you think of when you think of "the Lord's Supper?" Author John Marks Hicks believes that most of us have envisioned the altar for too long and have thought of communion as a more somber occasion than it was meant to be. In his book Come to the Table, Hicks focuses on the fellowship of the supper and the table as a time of joy and communion with Christ.

"That fellowship was originally in the garden with Adam and Eve until sin separated them from God," said Tom Haddon, Homebuilder's Sunday School Class teacher. "One day that fellowship will be restored when we're back together with God at His table."

Beginning September 26, Haddon will be sharing the premises behind Hicks' book with his class as other teachers are also doing throughout the church. To help with the "revisioning" of the Lord's Supper, he has asked Madison Church of Christ resident artists Janelle Ferguson and Kathy Wells for assistance.

"Janelle is painting two images for the class that will be before us the entire six weeks we'll be discussing communion," said Haddon. "One will be the table. The other will be the altar. She'll be depicting the things we think of when we think of altar – sacrifice, blood, etc. For the table, she'll be painting Adam and Eve in the garden in the presence of God – before sin separated them from God."

Haddon has asked Wells to paint during each class. "Kathy and I are still discussing and praying about what that painting will be," said Haddon. "Hopefully, it will bring about the overall sense of hope and joy that Hicks believes is symbolized by the table of fellowship."

"The table is a table of hope as it declares the presence of the kingdom through the resurrection of Jesus. The table proclaims the living Christ. The living host is present at the table eating and drinking with his disciples. The table is about hope, joy and thanksgiving. The table on that first Easter, on that first Sunday, was a table of joy and celebration. There was no solemnity, sadness or burdened hearts. Their response was worship and joy (Luke. 24:52) " – Come to the Table, pg. 87

Proskuneo (g4352) pros-koo-neh'-o; from 4314 and a prob. der. of 2965 (mean. to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (lit. or fig.) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): - worship.

It will occur to SOME one from CARD CLASS 101aaa that this was BEFORE the kingdom was established! I have TOLD you and TOLD you that when you TURN to "theatrical entertainment" it is not a FREE CHOICE: it is a MARK that God has REMOVED the candlestick and sent STRONG DELUSIONS so that 1700 or so ODD people can bark, growl and eat garbage just like the SPIRIT FILLED Stoneites at Cane Ridge. I have LOTS of documentary proof that music is the MARK of "broken down walls" (re. PK) and of a people who have been SEDUCED down from the presence of the Living Word with the WARNING BEFOREHAND that "there is NO WAY to get back upon God's Holy Mountain."

"God's word promises us a heavenly banquet in His presence," said Haddon. "I'm using Isaiah 25:6 as my VISION verse in preparing our lessons. There we are promised a feast of rich foods for all peoples…the best of meats and the finest of wines. Fellowship will be restored, and that is God's ultimate goal."

Moab hath been AT EASE from his youth, and he hath settled on his lees, and hath not been emptied from vessel to vessel, neither hath he gone into captivity: therefore his taste remained in him, and his scent is not changed. Je.48:11


Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will SEND unto him wanderers [lie down with wandering prostitutes], that shall CAUSE him to wander, and shall empty his vessels, and break their bottles. Jer 48:12 [A vessel is like a Judas Bag which is also a Psaltery]

Remember that Paul promised a STRONG DELUSION from STRONG DELUDERS. The PROOF that this is happening to YOU and YOU are applauding is that you CANNOT CATCH on when you are being deluded or, like Eve, WHOLLY SEDUCED by the SERPENT who was a Musical Enchanter

Their BOTTLES is a WINESKIN or skin bag which is COLLAPSING when empty. This is like the FAMILIAR SPIRIT: it is the NEBEL a lyre or psaltery

For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the HARLOT. Je.2:20


And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and PUNISH the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The Lord will not do good, neither will he do evil. Zep.1:12

This was written for MADISON and all of the spastic groups who find themselves beyond redemption and are fulfilling the END TIME PROPHECY of searching for some MOUNTAIN to fall on them. It is horrible but at the same time fascinating to watch God TAKE DOWN mega temples STONE BY STONE: The Jews are STILL searching for all of those ten thousand or more HARPS!

Without having a CLUE these people are PROMISING you the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing in what the theatrical performers THINK is the Holy Place. And the BLIND just sit there and ooozze infatuation. The BLIND have no other choice and God has NO sympathy for the BLIND who have POKED OUT their own eyes with the dull lust of the flesh.

ISAIAH defines the BRANCH of the strangers and of the ABOMINABLE ONE as "a song played with instrumental accompaniment. Chuck, why is it that you PRAISE those who mislead you and DEFEND them? The wrath of God comes out of a WINE VAT or NEW WINESKINS before Jesus needs to call in TOM who DITTO HEADS John Mark Hicks who just CANNOT grasp it.

For he bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low; he layeth it low, even to the ground; he bringeth it even to the dust. Isaiah 26:5

TOM: Isa 25:6 And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. Isa 25:7

In the New Testament, Paul speaks of Israel being blinded by a veil: But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart (2 Corinthians 3:15). In Isaiah's day, it was more apparent that the nations were veiled. In Paul's day, it was more apparent that Israel was veiled. But for both the nations and for Israel, the remedy is the same: Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away (2 Corinthians 3:16).

Eating with Christ as me SINGS with the congregation means to GRIEVE OUT A HYMN. That could not truly happen until the national Israely practicing the "idolatry of nationhood" was destroyed so the TRUE Israel could go free.

He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it. sa 25:8

And it shall be said in that day, Isa 25:9

For in this mountain shall the hand of the Lord rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill. Isa 25:10

And he shall spread forth his hands in the midst of them, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to swim: and he shall bring down their PRIDE together with the SPOILS of their hands. Isa 25:11 [ie TITHES and OFFERINGS extorted according to Paul]

And the fortress of the high fort of thy walls shall he bring down, lay low, and bring to the ground, even to the dust. Isa 25:12


Bring down is:

Naga (h5060) naw-gah'; a prim. root; prop. to touch, i. e. lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphem., to lie with a woman); by impl. to reach (fig. to arrive, acquire); violently, to strike (punish, defeat, destroy, etc.): - beat, (* be able to) bring (down), cast, come (nigh), draw near (nigh), get up, happen, join, near, plague, reach (up), smite, strike, touch.

Nagan (h5059) naw-gan'; a prim. root; prop. to thrum, i. e. beat a tune with the fingers; espec. to play on a stringed instrument; hence (gen.) to make music: - player on instruments, sing to the stringed instruments, melody, ministrel, play (-er, -ing..

It is all a pack of lies and I don't know how to say it WITHOUT irritating the PROFESSIONAL irritaters. Isaiah had some more things to say that TOM etal have to SKIP in order to teach a pagan easter FEAST where God eats with us.
But the VICTORY will be the victory of the WORD over the ABOMINABLE BRANCH who is destroyed. And what is that ABOMINATION WHICH BRINGS DESOLATION? What is the BRANCH of the TERRIBLE ONES?

Zamiyr (h2158) from 2167; a song to be accompanied with instrumental music: - psalm (-ist), singing, song


From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous.

But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously. Isa 24:16

Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low. Isa 25:5

Zamar (h2167) zaw-mar'; through the idea of striking with the fingers]; prop. to touch the strings or parts of a musical instrument, i. e. play upon it; to make music, accompanied by the voice..

John Mark Hicks spreads the dungy aroma of the SACRIFICIAL feasts where he said that God EATS with us as we burn the FAT. Isn't that spacey? Then I responded with some links. Maybe you need to skip back upward?

Chuck, you are irritated: lots of people are terrorized that a once PRIDEFUL group can be so BLINDED that they APPLAUD at their own time on the TYMPANIA which was the DRUM Antiochus Epiphanes used like a CROSS to stretch the hides of those WHO WOULD NOT EVEN TASTE the "feast" and a mother had to watch husband and sons made into a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT. Remember Hebrews 11 followed by Hebrews 12 which warns that God is STILL a consuming fire for those who REFUSE to approach him with REVERENCE and Godly FEAR?

He hath made me also a byword of the people; and aforetime I was as a tabret. Jb.17:6

http://www.piney.com/2Macc.html

See what YOU get when I get irridated?

Ken

Ken...i said you were irritating...not irritated...your colors are showing...red, white and black and blue.

Let's see if i can answer your question.

"Chuck, why is it that you PRAISE those who mislead you and DEFEND them? "

I am a little lost here kenny...i need to know who i am praising and defending. could you explain who they might be?

go lick the newfoundland...i've got a yard full of blue healer/pit bull pups that keep wandering over here from next door...my labrapei has a problem trying to figure out whether to chase em home or play with em...she's not smart enough to figure it out.

blessings
chuck

Donnie, I believe that I did get the facts straight... you made the assumption that because the Homebuilders was not listed that Tom was responsible for the Easter drama, I had corrected you and told you that you were wrong, and you are.Those are the facts.My comments regarding the obvious anger and bitterness in the tone of your post were evident.I was speaking in truth and love to a fellow christian. You are correct in saying that we all need to pray for wisdom and discernment, and I have prior to responding to this post.I will not be your new target so that you may pick apart my words and try to confuse others with the issues.(my reply to you was in reference to the Easter drama and Tom) As for enjoying "your gossip" again you are wrong. You have made another incorrect assumption. I will not respond to answering questions about Tom and his actions or his whereabouts.You will need to contact him and work out your differences. I will pray that the Lord will open the eyes of your heart. Maybe one Sunday you could join us at second service (not in the balcony)and truly fellowship with the body of Christ.

In Him,
Susan

Donnie,

I hope you leave enough room to keep adding to your list of "change-at-any-cost" expressions. It is sure to grow. Add these two if not already on the list...Religious pornography and political pornography. There is a co-relation with liberalism in the church and liberalism on the political front. How else do you get a One World Government and One World Church?

Wil

Donnie et al, PTI...

In following your discourse I came across the following question:

" The real issue at hand is concerning the Easter drama. How and wherefrom did it originate?"

Is this the real question, or is celebrating easter (as it is scheduled) the real question?

I'll answer your question first Donnie to be polite...sometimes that is not my nature.

Seeing the Word "acted out" is sometimes more effective, meaningful and understandable. A student of the Word like you or Ken needs not have such aids. In fact, it seems that you both enjoy or prefer no aids at all...just scripture explaining itself. Unfortunately, many do not have the time or talent to do as you do. I'm not condoning that activity, in fact it is for all to benefit dwelling in the Word. The starting point for many will be an encounter. It should be for all! The encounter is not with the Word, but with the Word made Flesh! Sometimes we fall short dotting the i's and crossing the t's, looking for the mystery in the scriptures. If one will just find their Redeemer, Jesus, not knowing about Him, but getting to know Him intimately, all is well with them. It's not possible to know Him in that fashion without His Spirit affecting and effecting one's living. IMO that is what born again is all about. In the early church there were many ways of sharing the story of Jesus. One of the most popular was in the Orthodox church with the use of icons...not idols...icons. I can just picture two people sitting for hours as one shares the story with the other through the colorful pictures. What a wonderful way for illiterate people to share their faith! Remember Donnie, God has given all His kids the ability to point others to Jesus. It's not for the scholars only.

Now for my question...how long has the cofC celebrated easter? I didn't grow up in this, so I don't know. Every place I've been since 1981 has done so. I don't have a problem with celebrating the resurrection, but in the fact that it is scheduled according to pagan timing with the vernal equinox. Isn't it amazing that Passover, when the Lord's Supper was instituted, a matter of hours before Jesus' death, comes a month after easter. The Word tells us when to celebrate that feast...first month, fifteenth day. Unfortunately, we have chosen to follow the pagan god's scheduling than what we find in the Word. Do you remember a time when the cofC didn't celebrate resurrection day at all? It's funny but the Orthodox Church still follows the Jewish calendar in their celebration. Looks like they are one up on us there!

blessings
chuck

Our Lord Jesus rebuked the Pharisees time after time in the Gospels because they , (paraphrase) honered Him with their lips
but their hearts were far from Him. I have been a Christian for a long time now, and I just have the hardest time listening to people argue over who is right and who is wrong. In Galatians, Paul speaks of when Peter came to Antioch, and he opposed Him to his face because he was clearly in the wrong about eating with the Jews and not the Gentiles, but later Peter acted accordingly to his open rebuke and they continued on in one spirit. Why can't you just go to the source of what is bothering you and get on with it? It seems like a lot of different Christians are all saying the same thing to you, but you just won't accept it. Now don't get me wrong, I am not siding with you on this subject but I still have a concern for your approach. I do know that Jesus did not like religious doctrine by the things he said to the Pharisees. He did many things which were not "according to tradition" which is why the Pharisees did not like him at all. Never-the-less, I am done with corresponding about this subject because I can forsee it will go nowhere, so Donnie instead,I am lifting up my petition before God with thanksgiving, that this segregation would come to an end and that the Holy Spirit of God would prevail in Madison Church of Christ, and that despite our differences in the way things should be run, each and everyone would stand on this promise: Phil.1:4-6 " In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

In Him Alone
Elaine
<}}}><

God bless you Elaine for the kind spirit with which you write you posts. The things that you say seem to be “heart felt” and sincere. I wish I could write and say things in like manner.

The things I “pick up” from Donnie’s posts really make me feel proud to have such a brother in Christ. Many are the people who have been “ran off” from the churches of their youth by the ‘change agents” and many are the people who have stayed and think everything is okay. The ones who stay with the church think that as long as this church invokes the name of “Christ” several times during “worship” and as long as we “pray” and sang “happy religious songs” everything is okay. Anyone who objects to the new way of doing things should leave.

One question you should ask yourself and your elders is “Was what we did, and the way we worshipped in the sixties, seventies, and eighties right or wrong according to the New Testament?” “Was our worship in the past acceptable to God?” If so ask them “Why the change?” Then ask them,” Could you (elders) still worship God as we did in the past and God accept your worship?” If they answer these questions yes, then you should go and ask Donnie and all of the people who have been driven away from that church the same questions. If they answer “yes” then you should ask Donnie and the people who do not worship with that church any longer one more question, and that question is, “Can you worship God in this church the way we are worshipping now?” I believe you will get a “no”!

Elaine, I believe that you are smart enough in the Word of God to see who is causing division here. Elaine, some people cannot worship like that, but all can worship like you use to. Do you think God will be pleased with preachers and elders who drive out other Christians for the sake of “change”? Surely you would not demand that Donnie or the other people violate their conscience. Your elders give them no choice, “it’s do it our way, or walk!”

To understand where I am coming from you need to have a reasonable knowledge of God’s Word and some understanding of how the Church of Christ is to “work” and “worship” and I believe that you have such. I am going to close with a few scriptures for your consideration.

1 Timothy 3:15 (KJV) *But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.* Elaine, a certain behavior is expected in the church from Christians. Especially from the preacher and elders who should be setting the example. This passage is written to Timothy not to some one who is sitting in the balcony.

One cannot do just any “religious thing” he may want to do in the church. One must first ask, “How will this affect my brother?” Before a preacher or elder makes any changes, he should first consider each and every child of God in that congregation. An elder should never trade (run off) a Christian in hopes that he may gain five. That is the way the world thinks and acts. An elder may trade his stocks in order to gain more stocks but we must never do so with souls! Elders will give an account for those souls that have left. Even if some of the elders have resigned they are still going to face it at the judgment.

1 Timothy 6:5 (KJV) *Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.* Some elders make changes in the worship for the purpose of gain. We want to gain a bigger building, or we want to gain more people, or we want to gain more money to spend (extra contributions which the uninformed may not mind, especially if it is label “love offering”). By the way any contribution made to the Lord is made out of love.

Elders may have a “traditional” worship service and a “contemporary” worship service in hope of gaining more followers “…supposing that gain is godliness,” but the New Testament authorizes neither of the above worship services. Christ gave us the New Testament and instructions on how to worship. Christ did not give us “worship” choices. He did not say that different “churches” of “different” teachings could co-exist, especially under the same roof! In fact Christ said, “…a divided house can not stand.” That is the situation that exists there today! You are trying to worship in a divided house and it will not work!

1 Peter 1:22 (KJV) *Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:* Both elders and preacher need to learn and practice this advice. Elaine, your elders need to ask forgiveness from every soul that they have ran off from Madison.

Years from now it will not matter how big a building you have or how nice it is on the inside. The elders will give account for souls, not brick and mortar. 1 Peter 5:1 - 4 (KJV) *The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.*

In Christian Love

Jimmy

Jimmy,

Your message title is exactly right. Christ is the head of His church. It is He that we follow. Your message to Elaine is well thought out and communicated. I do have a couple problems with you opinions though. "The things I “pick up” from Donnie’s posts really make me feel proud to have such a brother in Christ." I too consider Donnie a brother in Christ, regardless of his position on Madison and his constant judgement of right and wrong there. The words you use about people being ran off from there are probably accurate in the way that they feel. I know several of those that have left Madison for other assemblies in the area that give them more comfort in how they worship and serve. There are 3 congregations that are blessed with the largest growth in their histories because of the Madison changes. Keep in mind also that the ones that left were the "big givers" as Donnie puts it, so those congregations have instant resources to do whatever they choose to serve the Lord. I'm curious Jimmy, if you are from the area, or Donnie our resident statistician, what are the numbers of new believers added to God's Kingdom from those 3 added together? Does it compare to those at Madison? It's not that numbers matter the most, it's all about loving people into the Kingdom.

"The ones who stay with the church think that as long as this church invokes the name of “Christ” several times during “worship” and as long as we “pray” and sang “happy religious songs” everything is okay. Anyone who objects to the new way of doing things should leave." Jimmy, have you ever been to Madison? If so, when was the last time? Is there something wrong with being joyous in singing praises to the Lord? Have you ever read how joyous some of the psalms really are? All of our singing is not just "happy clappy" as Donnie would have you believe. In fact if my memory serves me right, last Sunday we had several hymns in a row right from the start that reverence the holiness of God. Maybe Donnie would like to post those here or elsewhere.

"One question you should ask yourself and your elders is “Was what we did, and the way we worshipped in the sixties, seventies, and eighties right or wrong according to the New Testament?” “Was our worship in the past acceptable to God?” If so ask them “Why the change?” " Do you think the worship in the first three centuries was acceptable to God, Jimmy? Why did we change from doing it like that? Change is inevitable Jimmy. It's about being relevant to the current generation. I don't know how old you are, but I'll be 58 next week. My guess is we're not very far apart in age. My only passion is for ministering to the lost and sharing the love in substance and message like Jesus did. My example has not changed and never will. I'm not following the men, I hope I'm following the Master. There are men and women on that same path that are in front, next to, and behind me. We are all headed for heaven by the grace of God through the sacrifice of His Son and our Savior...Jesus. Do we all do the same, look the same, talk the same and live in the same places? No! But He told us how we would know each other...by our love...for Him by loving others. It's really not that tough to understand and focus on. It's about BEING THE CHURCH...NOT GOING TO CHURCH.


"If they answer “yes” then you should ask Donnie and the people who do not worship with that church any longer one more question, and that question is, “Can you worship God in this church the way we are worshipping now?” I believe you will get a “no”!" Jimmy, Ive got a great idea. How about we got to the 3 area cofC's that received the bulk of our departed members, see if they'd like to swap our facility that will hold all of them and then some for their facilities. They could have the great Madison congregation of the past back, and we could have 3 fresh places to grow from instead of one. I wonder what the answer would be...not really. Jimmy, the cofC is the most fragmented denomination in the Lord's church. I'll be going past two in about half an hour that are directly across the street from each other. Each has about 25 members and they used to be one congregation. They've been separate for about 40 years now. Why is that Jimmy...when they are both conservative as they come?

I've got a meeting to go to so let me close with one more. "One cannot do just any “religious thing” he may want to do in the church. One must first ask, “How will this affect my brother?” Before a preacher or elder makes any changes, he should first consider each and every child of God in that congregation. An elder should never trade (run off) a Christian in hopes that he may gain five. That is the way the world thinks and acts. An elder may trade his stocks in order to gain more stocks but we must never do so with souls! Elders will give an account for those souls that have left. Even if some of the elders have resigned they are still going to face it at the judgment." I think you are wrong Jimmy. The question should be how it will please God and affect His Kingdom. You are absolutely right about judgement! We will all account for our responsibilities to our Creator and Savior in loving all of mankind, brothers/sisters and lost, with all of our possessions and abilities. That's where it is all summed up according to Jesus. That's who the true church is, was, and will be. Take a look at Acts 2:42-47 for a good picture of the Lord's Church and what they were about. Then read the letters written by Paul to all the congregations with individual problems. He didn't toss them out or tell them exactly how to do it. There is no written code of how to worship God other than do it sincerely with all of your resources. I've not encountered too many in any of the congregations that are willing to be that church. Guess what...there is a remnant that do treat others that way. When that body assembles His Spirit is truly present in worship and love.

Got to go...blessings to all
chuck

Chuck,


I’ve got a better idea. Since you are advocating a trade of church buildings, you seem to be confused about the economic history of these congregations. A more equitable and moralistic solution would be for you guys to give back the Madison building to the members from whom you stole the building. You know.....those brethren who were faithfully worshipping at Madison in accordance with New Testament guidelines (as did the generation before them) before you guys introduced divisiveness. The very same brethren who sweated and sacrificed for the cause of Christ for years to advance the Gospel and build the fine facility that you have hijacked. Once you’ve given back the building, you can break ground on your very own building for a brand new Community church. This action has the three-fold advantages of allowing you to build and pay for your very own building in an honest manner, as you should have done in the first place, instead of acquiring it in an underhanded and deceptive manner; it will immediately stop the controversy; and such action will give you the perfect opportunity to correctly identify your Community church, differentiate it from those traditional, legalistic churches of Christ, and leap headfirst into the postmodern era with complete freedom without any baggage from the past.



And oh yes, you could properly call your new church a denomination and could say that it isn’t fractured because the doctrine is ever changing with the culture.



With love,


Joel

Hi Inmate...haven't talked with you in a while. How's tax season treating you?
Still haven't heard from you about lunch. We do live in the same neighborhood still.


"A more equitable and moralistic solution would be for you guys to give back the Madison building to the members from whom you stole the building."

I was under the impression that it was the Lord's church. Generations of faithful servants and worshippers have and will continue to meet there. I don't see where you can draw an equity line, but you are the CPA. Could you draw up a fair settlement document if that was the choice? Is it like investing in stocks with shares of ownership? Is it based only on money? Is there any other criteria for "ownership" as you describe it?

"those brethren who were faithfully worshipping at Madison in accordance with New Testament guidelines (as did the generation before them)"

Joel, could you show me anywhere in the NT the guidelines for worship? Could you show me worship at all in the NT? You build on an illusionary foundation.

"And oh yes, you could properly call your new church a denomination and could say that it isn’t fractured because the doctrine is ever changing with the culture"

Joel, I'm afraid you've missed what the doctrine (teaching) of Christ (the Annointed of God or Messiah) is all about. It is never changing! Not added to to or removed from. Our directive on that is clear. Those in the Lord's church have accepted the sacrifice of God in the flesh as the only payment for their sins. They understand that any effort they make, outside of love of God and mankind motivated, is useless and worthless to their Creator and Savior. He calls them equal with "used menstrual cloths" in Isaiah.

You are 100% correct about culture! It is vast and ever changing. Review some of Paul's writings to the assemblies in areas outside Jerusalem. They are amazingly different, but still part of the Lord's church. Paul never separates them from God or each other. They are all built on the same foundation...Christ alone.

I've got an open lunch hour today....think I'll give you a jingle for some fellowship and swallowship. You are my brother in Christ for sure!

Immersed in His love which flows to you from me,
chuck

RE: This post is not for chuck sonn

Joel, your post is well put. Your logic is to be commended. Your major premise “…give back the Madison building…” with you minor premise being assumed, “leave the other Churches alone” and your conclusion “go pay for a building of you own”.

I have notice statements, from the one to whom you were addressing, such as “I have a great idea” or “that is a great suggestion” followed with such childish logic. I have a four year old grandson that can reason with better logic. One such statement made in his 2/16/2005 is, “I'll make it a little plainer. I'm more interested in being the church than going to church.”

How can anyone think that they can be the church? My four year old grandson can tell you that the church is the “Body of Christ”. Eph. 1:22-23, “And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23Which is his body.” Is this guy living under such an illusion as to equate himself as being the body of Christ? Notice also the importance put upon going to Church by the Apostle Paul in Acts 20:6-7 (KJV), “… came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them…” Paul waited seven days for this Church to assemble. Paul never made statements such as, “I am the Church” or “I am not interested in going to Church.”

One should have a great love for the Church. One should publicly express a great love for the Church. Before we Baptize a person into Christ we listen to that person make a public confession that they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Romans 10:10-11 (KJV),’ 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.” I am not ashamed of Him in whom I have believed on nor am I ashamed of His Body, the church. Much more could be said on this statement but I am sure that you already know these things of which I write Joel.

There is nothing wrong with one just saying I don’t understand the things that I read in the Bible, that is if one reads the Bible, I say this because thus far I have not seen one scripture referenced or written in any of his posts. One who does not know should take the time and years to learn from some man who does know. This example is given to us in the Book of Acts, chapter 8:30:31,” Understandest thou what thou readest? 31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?” Notice this scripture does not say “…except the Holy Spirit teach me” or “I am waiting on lightening to strike me.” When one reads and studies his Bible he learns that the Holy Spirit teaches us through the Word using men who have already learned the Word of God. The narrative to which we mentioned above tells us that the Holy Spirit sent the man, Philip, to the man, a eunuch, to guide him and teach him the Gospel.

Paul told Timothy this, 2 Timothy 2:2 (KJV), “And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.” Christians are to be able to teach other also. Christians must first go through a learning process. Jesus said it like this “take my yoke upon you and learn of me”. Those that have learned both teach and keep His commandments, John 14:15 (KJV),” 15If ye love me, keep my commandments.”

Conclusion is: A persons posts devoid of scriptural teachings may lead one to believe that that person is scriptural bankrupt. And, the congregation he attends may be scriptural bankrupt as well seeing that he is not learning the scriptures at church. A word of caution with my last statement: It may not be the fault of the congregation he attends, but I would think that anyone attending a congregation would pick up some knowledge of God’s Word.

In Christian Love,

Jimmy

Brother Jiminy,

Since the title line and sub lines verify that this post is not for me, may I assume that you would just like to talk about me? Check that...there's no assumption involved...there's evidence!

As you attempt to preach a sermon here, evidenced by the following language, "Your major premise “…give back the Madison building…” with you minor premise being assumed, “leave the other Churches alone” and your conclusion “go pay for a building of you own”., it would appear you are a wannabe preacher (as bro Kenny would put it).

As you begin to gossip(sin wilfully) about me, " One such statement made in his 2/16/2005 is, “I'll make it a little plainer. I'm more interested in being the church than going to church.”", it becomes evident that you know little of being the church, the called out Greek for 1577

Pronunciation Guide
ekklesia {ek-klay-see'-ah}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 3:501,394 from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564
Part of Speech
n f
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating

b) the assembly of the Israelites

c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously

d) in a Christian sense

1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting

2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake

3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body

4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth

5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

Continuance of gossip, "Is this guy living under such an illusion as to equate himself as being the body of Christ?"

I'd like to communicate with you Jiminy, but manners dictate that I don't per your repeated request.


"This post is not for chuck sonn
Jimmy Wren (no login)
Posted Mar 11, 2005 3:58 PM

RE: This post is not for chuck sonn"

My prayer for all on this forum is to communicate with peace and harmony, regardless of the differences in doctrinal belief. That is evidence of the true church spoken of in Eph 4.

blessings to all including Jiminy,
chuck

RE:chuck sonn

I would like to answer your post and the questions you raise but it would be useless. Everything that you say is right in you world of religious belief. Chuck, your belief cannot be wrong. You do not have to “… earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” (Jude 1:3 - 4 (KJV) You do not have to “content for the faith” at all. Faith, the way you believe, can be anything you want it to be.

I really thought that I was posting to people who love the Lord and His Church. By the way this post was for Elaine, it was not meant for you. Be that as it may, after reading your post I conclude that a further discussion with you, since you believe that the Church of Christ is a denomination would serve no real purpose. Your faith is relevant only to what you believe. We are no where close to being on the same page of scripture. You are no where close to “contending for the faith”. “How can two walk together except they agree?” We have to have the same rule of Faith before we can “speak the same things and that there be no divisions among us”. I made the decision a long time ago to base my belief on the Bible and the Bible only. However, if I believed that the Lord’s Church was a denomination, what difference would it make what I believe? I would visit with my friends at the Catholic church one Sunday. Next Sunday I would visit with my Mormon friends. I would visit the Mosques that we have in Fort Worth. It would make no difference what I believe or where I went because one of the denominations teaches and believes that we are all “predestined” anyway and that we can do nothing about it.


I wondered why you would abbreviate the Church of Christ as cofC. Now I know. This last statement is cut and pasted from your last post dated March 10, 2005 with your name “chuck sonn”..

“Jimmy, the cofC is the most fragmented denomination in the Lord's church.” See March 10, 2005, post by chuck sonn.

In Christian Love

Jimmy

Brother Jimmy,

Thanks for your response, but I think you misunderstand.

"Chuck, your belief cannot be wrong. You do not have to “… earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” (Jude 1:3 - 4 (KJV) You do not have to “content for the faith” at all. Faith, the way you believe, can be anything you want it to be."

False...please reference my response to Joel (Inmate) if it makes the grade.

"I really thought that I was posting to people who love the Lord and His Church. By the way this post was for Elaine, it was not meant for you."

Jimmy, PTI for getting in your personal discourse with Elaine. If you want to communicate one on one with people in this forum it is best done through personal email. Etiquette on this forum is pretty much no holds barred. Manners should be observed in choosing words and tone. I do love Messiah Jesus, His body consisting of my brothers and sisters saved through His sacrifice, and all of creation...that's where I'm directed to labor...harvesting in the fields prepared by/for Him.

Jimmy your following statement may be one that separates us. "Your faith is relevant only to what you believe. We are no where close to being on the same page of scripture. You are no where close to “contending for the faith”. “How can two walk together except they agree?” We have to have the same rule of Faith before we can “speak the same things and that there be no divisions among us”. I made the decision a long time ago to base my belief on the Bible and the Bible only."

I put my faith in the one that our Book speaks of and points to, not the Book itself. You seem to esteem the Word above the Word Made Flesh. If I have misjudged you for that I apologize. Unfortuantely, in a forum that's moderated like this one, we can't edit comments we make if they are wrong. It would be nice to remove them completely. I've made mistakes about people here in the past.

"I wondered why you would abbreviate the Church of Christ as cofC."

Jimmy, that's a normal abbreviaton for church of Christ that you will find multiple times on this site as well as other places. If it offended you I apologize. It wasn't meant to do that.


blessings for a great day serving Him!

chuck

ps...you mention Ft Worth in your post. did you used to go to Richland Hills?

Elaine Our Lord Jesus rebuked the Pharisees time after time in the Gospels because they , (paraphrase) honered Him with their lips but their hearts were far from Him.

We have posted several TABLES on this forum to show the NUMEROUS Old Testament passages to which Jesus pointed. They ALL define LIP WORSHIP in terms of singing and instrumental music! That is TRUE DOCTRINE. Don't think you can use a SECTARIAN, LEGALISTIC dodge because what the Bible universally calls NOISE and not MUSIC is identical whether you use LITERAL instruments or ORGANIC instruments to STIR UP THE FLESH and silence DOCTRINAL TEACHING which is the ONLY role of the assembly or "synagogue" and that includes the Lord's Supper to PREACH the DEATH of Christ as he "grieves out a hymn" with us. YOUR kind of charismatic (i.e. sexual) PLEASURING is defined by the word ORGANUM which means AFTER THE PIPE ORGAN or in IMITATION of the pipe organ. The performers did A CAPPELLA which is NOT what Christians do because A Cappella was the Pope's CASTRATED musical worship team in the Sisting chapel where instruments were NOT ALLOWED in the presence of Christ's "Vicar." This POPE returned from FRANCE in what Luter calls the BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY and brought the frency fellas along with him.

Paul's absolute DIRECT COMMAND was to SPEAK to honor God in Christ by speaking "that which is written." There is no doubt in my mind that BOTH the singing and MAKING MELODY are placed IN THE HEART or SPIRIT which is the ONLY place God seeks your worship. So, what YOU are defending at Madison is EXACTLY what Jesus repudiated and you will find NO exception in the Bible or church theologial history which does not AGGRESSIVELY teach that fact. The Restoration Movement began with FIVE TUNES sung in unison which would PREVENT the outbreak of HARMONY which is EXTERNAL MELODY whose BASE is Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon and his MUSES or Locusts. Scholars note what is perfectly clear and revealed: the concept of SPEAK is bot a MARK and to GUARD against a poetic or musical presentation. Scholars note that when the lyric began to be performed by PROFESSIONAL SPEAKERS Or poet reciters it was a PROOF and a FURTHER PRODUCER of an effeminate spirit which almost always led to overt homosexuality. The musical team--whatever the sex--is claimed to be the HAREM OF THE GODS.

You CANNOT honor God without following the PATTERNISM which identified the figure of a SON as speaking ONLY what He as Word hears from the FATHER within. You CANNOT be a faithful elder if you PROCURE a hireling when THEIR duty is pastor-teachers is to TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT (meaning doctrine) and REFUTE those who OPPOSE true DOCTRINE.

Elaine I do know that Jesus did not like religious doctrine by the things he said to the Pharisees. He did many things which were not "according to tradition" which is why the Pharisees did not like him at all.

Jesus repudiated the DOCTRINES OF MEN: when you PAY someone who does not BELIEVE the Bible and cannot teach it STRAIGHT from one verse to another then YOU are the ONE being condemned. The PRIMARY attack of Lucifer or Satan has always been MUSIC right in heaven and in the garden of Eden. He/she teaches HER doctrine to seduce you out of your MONEY and SOULS. Jesus NEVER violated a TRUTH and He had no obligation to obey the TRADITION. That is why he EJECTED the musical minstrels like DUNG. And repudiated the Babylonian PASSOVER and may other TRADITIONS which were added--like Easter right there in the Temple honoring Ishtar and Tammuz --in Babylon IN ORDER to prevent people from drinking the FREE WATER OF THE WORD (Isaiah 55)

Therefore, to claim that ANTI-instrumental churches of Christ are TRADITIONAL in that aspect is terminal ignorance or terminal evil. I KNOW that irritates but if you HAVE EARS it will IRRIDATE.

We have affirmed that MY task is the MINISTRY OF IRRITATION. Therefore, until I am "viperized" I do not intend for anyone to get by with false accusations against God in Christ and downright false teachings. You have been listening to TOO MANY hirelings who COULD NOT exist if they allowed the Bible to teach DOCTRINE.

The big lie of the jubilators is that there is only a CORE GOSPEL which has not been destroyed as valid for faith and practice. That CORE is "seven facts ABOUT Jesus Christ." That utterly calls God in Christ a liar because HE came to deliver DOCTRINE. Before you get gobbled up by the MARK of your slightly evolved PAGAN FISH you should grasp that it stands for the Babylonian EA who was a "second incarnation" of Lamech the father of Jubal, Jabal, Tubal-Cain and Naamah. The "smiths, musicians, stealers of YOUR cattle and of enchanters (Naamah) were known as Cabiri or Kabiri the universal homosexual TRAFFICKERS seduced by Lucifer. SHE is ZOE, Eve or Inanna or now MARY: the Mother Goddess. She is also INANNA who got EA--the fish or BEAST FROM THE SEA--drunk and stole the ME which were magical chants to produce POWER one of which produced a MATRIARCHAL religion you see before you. Take a look at what the DAUGHTER of the FISH stole from the DRUNK Ea. Inanna was known for PRODUCING WARFARE BETWEEN PEACABLE BRETHREN. Ring a ding dong? She BUILT mega temples and the TORE THEM DOWN. I would not get close to your church without watching for falling debris.

http://www.piney.com/BabEaGifts.html

DOCTRINE simply means TEACHINGS: you are CLAIMING that Jesus repudiated the teaching of DOCTRINE and you learned that from the fish mongers who do NOT want you to know anything which would inform you that terms like THE MINISTRY or tithing or the law of giving or the LAW of singing is a big fat LIE by bald faced liars who are concealed AGENTS of an alien power.

Jesus said to MAKE DISCIPLE by baptizing those who believe and then TEACHING them. A disciple is a MATHETES or a LEARNER and the TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST has no other FUNCTION which demands THE MINISTRY. HE DID NOT SAY: "MAKE CHARISMATIC WORSHIPERS." REMEMBER?

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Mt.28:20

TEACHING is NOT preaching but:

Didasko (g1321) did-as'-ko; a prol. (caus.) form of a prim. verb dao, (to learn); to teach (in the same broad application): - teach

Didache (g1322) did-akh-ay'; from 1321; instruction (the act or the matter): - doctrine, hath been taught.

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Ac.2:42

Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your DOCTRINE, and intend to bring this mans blood upon us. Ac.5:28

Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. Tit.1:9

Next, the Holy Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ which is the MIND of Christ.

Let this MIND (spirit, attitude) be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Ph 2:5
who, though he WAS God, did not demand and cling to his rights as God, Ph 2:6
but laid aside his mighty power and glory, taking the disguise of a slave and becoming like men. Ph 2:7

Jesus was the outward "body" of THE CHRIST OF GOD. That is stated in many ways: He was the SPIRIT, the Manna, the Water, the Rock, the Pillar, the Fortress and on and on. However, he imaged or flashed forth God so that ONLY the LIGHT revealed in the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST allows us to SEE TOTAL DEITY and also SEE that He wants us to be CHRIST LIKE as the only way to be GOD LIKE. Remember that to be CHRIST LIKE you MUST cast out the musical minstrels like the Levites in the temple CAST OUT DUNG. The same MUSICAL term meaning "to play the flute, steal your grapes, pollute or prostitue" was used when God CAST OUT LUCIFER who is ZOE the "beast" and 'female instructing principle." Paul DID KNOW what the LAW said about performing women. Again, Paul's DOCTRINE was identical in that he ABSOLUTELY ISSUED A DIRECT COMMAND to NOT pleasure one another and this points DIRECTLY to external ODEING which way to CHARM or ENCHANT others. That is why Paul said to keep the CHARM or GRACE or MELODY in the place of the Spirit or HEART. If you LET IT GET LOOSE it will hurt you real bad and THAT is some slinking agent's AGENDA.

From what is reported, and I have never caught Donnie wrong, the TOTALITY of your end-time Babylonianism is to TURN OUT THE LIGHTS or CANDLESTICK which represented the SEVEN SPIRITS OF SUPERNATURAL KNOWLEDGE. Shelly's ADVENT CANDLES has the historical message of REPLACING THE LIGHT IN THE FACE OF JESUS. You CANNOT be Christ like unless you CAST OUT the musical and preaching MINSTRELS.

If you do not CAST OUT the musical idol thy you DO NOT WANT the LIGHT or knowledge or DOCTRINE to shine in your life and REVEAL you down to to the GUT level. PRAISE GOD, so far, the BLOWN OUT LAMPSTAND doesn't seem to be attracting TOO MANY flies. Donnie also makes the univeral truth available that the SEEKERS sucked in by a FALSE LIGHT of Lucifer (remember the Lucifer matches or Phosphorus or Eos or Eve or Zoe) are NEVER going to pay their way and they will be SEEKING the best SHOW down the street. So the YOLK is spread all over the faces of those who were DRIVEN to infiltrate and divert to impose HOLY ENTERTAINMENT. We have shown you a few of the Greek words which proves that ENTERTAINMENT is some one's SECRET CODE WORD which always meant sexual and homosexual of which MUSIC is the MARK.

Jesus taught DOCTRINE and EVERYTHING that HE taught is His teachings and that means that the BIBLE is the DOCTRINE of Christ. Both Peter and Paul insist that there be an AIR-TIGHT compartment in the asembly to prevent ANYTHING not revealed from being taught. The reason for this worship in the PLACE of the human SPIRIT is that the DOGS are prowling around as musical performers known always as PARASITES because they would do ANYTHING to sit at the TABLE of a rich person.

Sure, the Spirit was the Spirit OF Christ in the creation and all of the Old Testament.. This is why Paul could draw a PARALLEL between "that which has been written" (Romans 15 which OUTLAWS music), the SPIRIT (Eph 5) or "The WORD of Christ" (Col 3:16). Furthermore, Jesus made it so clear that only a HIRELING enabled by you and yours could POSSIBLY misunderstand:

It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth [regenerates]; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:63

This notion of a SEPARATED Holy Spirit is the product of the TRINITY of Lipscomb, The GA and H. Leo Boles. It has CONTAMINATED the church forcefully by Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly who get VISIONS and hear AUDIBLE VOICES and have NEW GLASSES. Didn't Tom get a VISION by quoting a Partial verse which points DIRECTLY to the Abominal Branch or singing with instrumental music (or human instruments)?

If you blaspheme the ONE GOD by claiming that "they" are a Family of Gods or a committee with greater and lesser ABILITIES to fit THEIR dispensation then God HAS SENT you a strong delusion and this INVITES evil spirits to come into you and RIDUCULE God in Christ by claiming that Jesus doesn't LIKE religious doctrine. Strange, Elaine, but the lowly Samaritan Woman was the FIRST one Jesus OPENED prophecy to AFTER she made the Good confession that the ROLE of Messiah was HE WILL TELL US ALL THING.

Tell is anaggello which means to DECLARE, rehearse, show, speak or announce. SHE was able to grasp that which NONE of your STAFF INFECTION or "leaders" can grasp that WORSHIP is in the new PLACE of the human spirit made into A holy spirit by the operation of the faith of God at baptism. Jesus was the OPPOSITE of perverted EGO and always pointed to His WORDS and even said of his soon to leave body: "The flesh counts for nothing." JUST JESUS is Satan speaking!

You FELL SUCKER for the person who claimed to have the HOLY SPIRIT literally living inside of their carnal, mercinary HIDE. The primary SECTARIANS Jesus repudiates were Scribes (writers of sermons and books), Pharisees (professional preacher-prayers) and Hypocrites. The SECTARIAN hypocrites were ACTORS or performers of rhetoric or music. The Pharisees INVENTED their own TRADITIONS specificially SO THAT they did not have to just READ, teach and obey THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN. Then they pronoucned their TRADITIONS and STOLE the living or houses of WIDOWS. Doeth that RING A DING DONG?

The FALSE WITNESSES are 100% wrong: Jesus never criticized ANYONE for obeying His inspired words beginning in Genesis 1:1 and ending with the PROOF in the end of Revelation. It is UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE to listen to a PERFORMING speaker or singer without WORSHIPPING that which you GIVE ATTENDANCE TO. Therefore, The Spirit to the churches which was Christ the Holy Spirit does a double whammy on your THESIS that God is ANTI-doctrine:

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the TESTIMONY of Jesus is the SPIRIT of prophecy. Rev 19:10

Testimony is the word MARTYR: it is NOT POSSIBLE to speak the DOCTRINE of Christ which IS Spirit and Life without submitting yourself to being a WITNESS or a MARTYR. THAT IS the MARK that you have been seduced by FALSE PROFITS because they will say ANYTHING to try to WARD OFF the certain CROSS the "bretheren" will lay on you if you imply ANYTHING as a LAW or moral obligation.

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL suffer persecution. 2Ti.3:12

The Hassidim or later Pharisees--to their credit--began as a MOVEMENT to keep the people AWAY from the pagan-like temple where they slaughtered tens of thousands of INNOCENT ANIMALS in order to be PUNISHED "because of transgression" that being MUSICAL IDOLATRY of the Trinity at Mount Sinai. They began on a high plain to facilitate the CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS which was a SYNAGOGUE devoted to READING or REHEARSING the Word of God. However, they WERE condemned because they INVENTED their own ACTS OF WORSHIP which your misleaders give themselve the power to DO.

Now, the sly CHANGE AGENT CODE WORD and FALSE DOCTRINE is that things like NOT worshipping God with our BODY using instrumental music is JUST OUR TRADITION. Even old Steve Flatt preaches that. However, this is the MARK of total Biblical ignorance about the wholesale condemnation of MUSIC as a CODE WORD for those who became the PHARISEES and told God to GET LOST: WE WILL NOT HEAR YOUR DOCTRINE. The PROOF of Satan's END TIME MIRACLES OF SIGNS AND WONDERS is that people who were BLINDED at the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai still exists as Pharisees or religious PERFORMERS are STILL blind and cannot READ even the simpliest association between MUSIC and SATAN'S perverted sexuality without LYING about the actual words which CONVEY DOCTRINE. They CANNOT see or they WOULD NOT be Blind. Paul speaks of this in 2 Cor 3 and identifies the SPIRIT at Mount Sinai as the SPIRIT OF CHRIST.

Your holy spirit is like your pagan hymns: the product of VOODOO which fueled even Babyloniasm. That holy spirit is "the Little MAN (spirit) in the BIG MAN (me)" who guides ME to tell Jesus who DIED because of teaching DOCTRINE that He HATES DOCTRINE. The only remedy, I fear, is some kind of EXORCISM. However, Jude points us to many documents such as the BOOK OF ENOCH which agrees with NUMEROUS Biblical passages that MUSIC AS WORSHIP is a MARK that "there is no redemption."

More free stuff on THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST which is the DOCTRINE which Christ TAUGHT to ENdoctrinate us.

http://www.piney.com/Doctrine.Christ.html

Ken

I've noticed from time to time the recommendation that we should focus more on esteeming the Word made Flesh (that is, Christ) and less on esteeming the Word (that is, the New Testament). The same folks who make this recommendation also hold that we should be less concerned about being "right" and more concerned about being "relevant." As the latter faulty reasoning implies that being right and being relevant are mutually exclusive, the same faulty reasoning imples that esteeming the Word and esteeming the Word made Flesh are mutually exclusive.

Christians cannot separate the Word from the Word made Flesh, because the Word made Flesh IS the Word Itself (John 1:1, 14). They are inseparable, one and the same. That is, Christ IS the Word, the Author of the New Testament, the same Author Who ordered that we observe all things whatsoever He commanded us (Matt. 28:20). Now that Christ is no longer with us in the flesh, His Word, together with the Holy Spirit, remain with us forever to guide us.

To say that we should esteem Christ more than His Word is to give Him lip service but diminish Him nevertheless. To esteem the Word less is to esteem Christ less. It implies, "Yes, I believe in Christ, that He is Lord, but I really don't want to take absolutely everything He says to heart and observe all things whatsoever He commanded." Christ clearly warned that those who say, "Lord, Lord" (that is, those who acknowledge Him) but do not obey Him in all things are committing spiritual suicide (Luke 6:46-49).

So beware of people who preach belief in Christ but who diminish absolute obedience to His Word, for such people are false. Mark them and avoid them (Romans 16:17).

(See also the essay "Being 'Right' vs. Being 'Relevant'" in the thread "To Change or Not to Change (Part 2)" in the Madison Church Forum).

Bill,

I noticed that you picked up on something I was communicating. Unfortunately, you would rather prejudge my motives than understand my reasoning. Let's be honest with each other here. You are looking for a way to judge my standing with Christ. You, dear brother have not that privilege or responsibility. "As the latter faulty reasoning implies that being right and being relevant are mutually exclusive, the same faulty reasoning imples that esteeming the Word and esteeming the Word made Flesh are mutually exclusive." Did I ever make or imply this statement? NO! Maybe you're not talking to me...if so, forgive me for sensing that you are. My point was simple and valid. Many in the fundamentalist cofC have a common trait in their speech and written communication. They speak often of what the Word says, referring to the scriptures. Rarely do they focus on what Jesus said, but more importantly, the character and nature of what He said. They seem to feel that there is a puzzle to figure out that is concealed in the scripture. It could not be further from the TRUTH. Listen to the words of Jesus Himself. Read Mt 22 where He was tested by a lawyer. See how simply He responded. Our labor as His family that resides on this planet is to reach the ones in need...physical, financial, emotional and spiritual need. As we do this He plucks the harvest of those that He draws to Him. If we will but point them to Him, our task will be made easy. Obviously, we point them to the Word to find Him. Many in other areas of the world, and some in our society, are better reached and impacted by the encounter with Jesus in non-Word situations. I mentioned about puppet shows, drama, icons etc. as effective ways to share Jesus with those that don't know Him.

My point, Bill, was not to separate Jesus from scripture, but to warn of elevating the scripture to deity itself. If you feel that's all we have now, the Word, how can you write the following? "Now that Christ is no longer with us in the flesh, His Word, together with the Holy Spirit, remain with us forever to guide us." Do you believe that the Comforter/Counselor that He sent us after His leaving is deity? That may open a can of worms here. I don't understand how, but I know without question, that the Mind of Christ lives in me (Holy Spirit). Without that dweller I'd not understand the meaning of the Word. Spirit reveals the truth to those that have been given to Jesus.

Bill, I see 16 verses of salutations before, and 10 verses after referring back to 15 chapters promoting unity in the church in Rome. Unity between Jew and Gentile, rich and poor, slave and free. They all had different preferences in life and how they came to Jesus. What they had in common was a risen Savior who blotted out their sins. You seem to have added a little to that. "So beware of people who preach belief in Christ but who diminish absolute obedience to His Word, for such people are false. Mark them and avoid them (Romans 16:17)."

My KJV says the following:

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

One thing we need to be doing is promoting unity among the redeemed of God. I find it hard to avoid the following scripture each time I pass God's children on their path to heaven.

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Praise Him for His grace and mercy!

Have a great weekend...

chuck

All I have to say is this, I thank my the Lord Jesus Christ for Chuck and his TRUE understanding of "speaking the truth in love." In all honesty if I had to see Jesus through the eyes of some of the others who write, I would make it a point to run the other way. I don't care what they say , but they cannot see that they are legalists...bottom line! and would rather sound like a clanging cymbal themselves than to let people worship the Lord with All of their being. As for me, I raise my hands, I sing, and clap, and if I could dance before the Lord I would do that too because He created me to be a person who responds with every emotion. In Him, I cry, laugh, sigh, sing, smile, praise, and jump with joy because of what He has done for me! He did not create me to be a white washed tomb, but His child. There might be more Christians in this world if the church would run to the lost as the father ran to his prodigal son showing them joy instead of strict regemented man made doctrine. When the Holy Spirit moved on the day of Pentecost with tongues of fire, and men began to speak in different languages, praising God, what a schock it must have been to those who didn't see that written in the Scripture and therefore discounted that manifestation of the Holy Spirit as being "worldly". Thank God Madison Church of Christ is allowing the freedom of the Holy Spirit to move, now let the healing begin.
In His Name
Elaine
<}}}><

Elaine, you say “Praise God for Chuck! Your sure surprised me. I thought you were a true Bible believer. Please don’t make me wrong. Read some of chuck’s posts and then tell me if you still think God for him.
The following comments are taken from chuck sonn a supporter and present member of the “Community Church at Madison”. All of these were taken from his post on this board. They cover a time period of 4 years. Since some Madison elders are aware of some of his comments they must approve of his beliefs and teachings, and yes, he says he is a teacher! And now Elaine says, “Praise God for chuck.” Chuck sonn does to God’s Word the same thing Satan did to it in the Garden.
* *
I first brought a truck stop chapel…is this a 'church of Christ' outreach? My answer was to the negative because it is a "cross denominational outreach."
(April 16, 2002 post)If I am serving during the week or any other time, and spend time in prayer or study with one or more drivers, I make it a point to ask when they last shared the Body and Blood of the Lord. If they are comfortable with Communion at this time we share it.
* *
April 21, 2002) I personally believe that the "body of Christ" and "church of Christ" are 2 totally different groups.

I personally believe that some from each group are heaven bound.

* *

(July 12, 2003 post) I woke up this morning around 3AM to Jesse Duplantis(charismatic) preaching to John Hagee's flock (Baptist) in San Antonio, TX. He painted a beautiful picture of the "called out."

* *

(July 15, 2003 post) Is it possible that there are several paths that lead to heaven…If you are telling me that there is only one path to and through Jesus enroute to heaven, I'm telling you that is called a RUT not a path.

* *

Whatever it takes to get the door open, I'll do. They need to be brought to a point of decison...period

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the cofC is the most fragmented denomination in the Lord's church.

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There is no written code of how to worship God other than do it sincerely with all of your resource

* *

It's really not that tough to understand and focus on. It's about BEING THE CHURCH...NOT GOING TO CHURCH. (I am adding a note to this one. Which one of the many churches should one be, since he believes in many.)

* *

The encounter is not with the Word, but with the Word made Flesh!

* *

Serving Christ,

Jimmy

Jiminy,

It seems that slander and gossip may be some challenges for the Spirit that lives in you to deal with. I know what I read can't be coming from a saved-by-the-blood brother that believes that his eternal security comes from a combination of his effort and that of Jesus. I may be wrong if you sincerely believe that I'm to be marked for satan to take away. If that's the way you feel Jiminy, thanks for the diligent effort to bring me back in the right paths to follow.

Let's take a look at some of what you say and see how the Spirit looks at it. Not to cause consternation among any readers, please feel free to substitute any of the following for Spirit: Jesus, Mind of Christ, Holy Ghost etc.

"Since some Madison elders are aware of some of his comments they must approve of his beliefs and teachings, and yes, he says he is a teacher!" Would it be more appropriate, Jiminy, to not make judgements on behalf of the elders? Not ascribe beliefs to those you have not spoke to? The Word speaks about one-on-one conversation when people have problems with each other. I'm sorry you choose not to practice that, or do so selectively. Did I ever say that I was a teacher at Madison? Is that the only place one can teach? Is one who teaches English using the bible as the text considered a teacher?

"Chuck sonn does to God’s Word the same thing Satan did to it in the Garden." I would never ascribe enough respect for the enemy to capitalize the name. I would never use the Word of God out of context, or with addtions and subtractions like the enemy and his followers do regularly.

"I first brought a truck stop chapel…is this a 'church of Christ' outreach? My answer was to the negative because it is a "cross denominational outreach."
(April 16, 2002 post)If I am serving during the week or any other time, and spend time in prayer or study with one or more drivers, I make it a point to ask when they last shared the Body and Blood of the Lord. If they are comfortable with Communion at this time we share it."

Jiminy, I firmly believe that there will be people in heaven who do not worship in an assembly that has "church of Christ" on the marquee or above the door. I was called be a witness, not a judge. I also believe that we have an example of the LS at Passover, where Jesus fulfills the role of lamb sacrifice once and for ever. The Word never restricts when to partake of the Body and Blood. My copies say to do so when remembering the sacrifice. I don't restrict my memory of Jesus to an hour a week on Sunday. He tells us of His presence when more than one believer gathers to honor Him with our praises.

"(July 12, 2003 post) I woke up this morning around 3AM to Jesse Duplantis(charismatic) preaching to John Hagee's flock (Baptist) in San Antonio, TX. He painted a beautiful picture of the "called out." Is it possible for those who claim to know Jesus, but we don't agree with all their teaching, to have some things right?

"There is no written code of how to worship God other than do it sincerely with all of your resource" I asked you before, Jiminy, to show me how and where to worship based on NT writings. I also asked for you to show any reference to a worship service in the NT that's called worship. How we live our lives is worship.

"It's really not that tough to understand and focus on. It's about BEING THE CHURCH...NOT GOING TO CHURCH. (I am adding a note to this one. Which one of the many churches should one be, since he believes in many.)" Jiminy, try reading the letter to the saints at Ephesus. Take a look at the 4th chapter again. There is only one Body of Christ...His called out.

Some believe that God gave us His Word to gain knowledge about Him and this will please Him. Others believe that God gave us His Word for transformation of our lives. My personal belief is that the second statement is true.

Jiminy, since you are bound and determined to bring up faults that I have posted on this board, why not go for the brass ring! You probably didn't know it but I am the one who first used the term 10'er in the meeting with the elders that seems to be of importance in this site even getting its start. That term offended many according to the moderators. Just scroll down to the end of any page on this website and you will see that reference. Am I proud of my sinful past? Never! But I'm grateful for a Savior who would die for a wretch like me. Whatever it takes...point them to Jesus.(obviously, that doesn't give latitude to blatant and wilfull sin).

Enjoy your encounter in worship tomorrow for all who will focus on the Risen Savior.

blessings
chuck

Thanks Elaine,

Your words are kind and gracious. I abide with your spirit of joy in the Lord. Don't let any quench that spirit. Our job as laborers in the fields He has prepared is to love the lost with the evidence and message of salvation through Jesus. We are to be salt and light not only to the lost, but also the body, His church.

2Cr 6:1 We then, [as] workers together [with him], beseech [you] also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Cr 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)
2Cr 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
2Cr 6:4 But in all [things] approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
2Cr 6:5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
2Cr 6:6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
2Cr 6:8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and [yet] true;
2Cr 6:9 As unknown, and [yet] well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
2Cr 6:10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and [yet] possessing all things.

blessings
chuck