I read some where on this forum board: (July 2004) "A Christian can hear the words and even the silence because of baptism. God sweeps our minds of spirits which allows believes to read the words and understand the meaning. Even in His revelation God in Christ hide the truth from unbaptized people."

After reading this post, I thought to myself: evidently, this poster has never taught a Bible class of young men and women who have been baptized for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit and are Biblically illiterate. In fact, this statement boarders on Calvinism. To say that God "hide the truth from the unbaptized," is to teach Soverign Grace or Unconditional Grace.

The New Testament never discusses whether grace is conditional or unconditional. It everywhere assumes that it is conditional, and speaks of it as conditional. In Paul's explanation of grace, his main point is the contrast between law as a (possible) way of salvation and grace as a way of salvation (Romans 3:24-28; 6:14-15). As ways of saving sinners, law is completely impotent and grace is God's blessed alternative. But,the main point here is that BOTH are conditional! Paul never suggests that grace is unconditional; he only insists that certain conditions are not compatible with the nature of grace.

Baptism was a designed to be a witness to one's faith. In Samaria it was said that "when they believed Philip, preaching good tidings concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized both men and women" (Acts 8:12). As in Corinth, so in every other place the story of Jesus goes, "the Corinthians hearing believed and were baptized" (Acts 18:8).

I would remind one and all, the church at Corinth was a motile group of Biblically illiterate men whom the apostle Paul called "Brethren." If that outfit can be called the "church" I believe there is still hope for the church down at the corner of Walk and Don't Walk who "Believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God," This comes by "faith," a rational, cognizant, decision made by one who hears and belives. Not, that God "sweeps their minds of spirits causing them not to believe."
JR

JR I read some where on this forum board: (July 2004) "A Christian can hear the words and even the silence because of baptism. God sweeps our minds of spirits which allows believes to read the words and understand the meaning. Even in His revelation God in Christ hide the truth from unbaptized people."

JR you need a PURE spirit to just repeat the premise. I have discussed this issue several time wondering why people can READ the word SPEAK which means to TEACH and teach our kiddies that the word means SING and MAKE MUSIC. Jesus spoke in parables to the clergy to deliberately HIDE the truth from them because they had proven that they had rather PRAY performance prayers and charge the widows for it. I am also astounded that religionists have made a UNIVERSITY INDUSTRY out of telling Jesus Christ that EVERYTHING he or others said about baptism is JUST PLAIN WRONG HEADED.

Matt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matt 13: 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Matt 13: 15 For this peoples heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: Matthew 13:34

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Matthew 13:35


Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world (age) began, Rom 16:25

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world (age) hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Eph 3:9

Next, you should look at 2 Cor 3 to see that the Jews who lived by the LAW of Moses rather than faith had been BLINDED by shutting God's mouth at Mount Sinai.

2 Cor. 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2 Cor. 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2 Cor. 3:16 Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2 Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord IS that SPIRIT: and where the Spirit OF the Lord is, there is liberty.
2 Cor. 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are CHANGED into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye TAKE HEED, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 2Pe.1:19

Take heed is also Paul's UNIQUE worship word: if neither song, sermon nor class is taking heed and TEACHING IT AS IT HAS BEEN TAUGHT then the kiddies will be WORSE than illiterate.

Jesus told the Apostles to preach the gospel and baptize believers as the way to DISCIPLE them. If our kiddies are NOT ready to become STUDENTS and the church become the SYNAGOGUE or school of Christ and the Bible then maybe the preacher's little black book needs to take a rest. Next, Jesus commanded and Peter preached that we should be baptized for the REMISSION of sins like the demons are swept out of our "house" or mind. Then, God gives us the gift of A personal spirit which He has made holy. The same Peter in 1Pe 3:21 says that at BAPTISM we REQUEST A clear conscience which means good CONSIOUSNESS without which we cannot GRASP the word. A good consciousness means a CO-PERCEPTION meaning that we have been DISCIPLED and requested that God in Christ be our ONLY Teacher and His Word the only RESOURCE in song and sermon and class.

Paul says that when our bodies are WASHED God sprinkles out hearts FROM an EVIL conscience. Therefore, no child should be baptized to "eat that bread" or because they have had the HELL scared into them. I have noted some collected notes on DISCERNMENT which I believe that any baptized believer receives but NOT if they don't have the slightest notion of what Jesus promised and the disciples preached.

http://www.piney.com/HsDiscernment.html

After reading this post, I thought to myself: evidently, this poster has never taught a Bible class of young men and women who have been baptized for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit and are Biblically illiterate. In fact, this statement boarders on Calvinism. To say that God "hide the truth from the unbaptized," is to teach Soverign Grace or Unconditional Grace.

We have noted that Calvin etal confused RIGHTEOUSNESS and REGENERATION or having God give us a NEW SPIRIT an NIKE or "a Man of Victory." If God speaks and we believe what He revealed then we have God's approval and are justified on that point.

The Holy Spirit has a name: Jesus, Joshua or Jehovah- Saves. The Holy Spirit is to God what our spirit is to us according to Paul in 1 Cor. 2. If we receive the gift of A new or holy spirit then what do YOU say that God goes to the trouble for if it is not to give US the Mind of Christ.

http://www.piney.com/HsMindSp.html

http://www.piney.com/HsMind3.html

Initial faith comes from HEARING the Word of God but the WORD is given to be understood and it is clear that it is NOT. However, for those who LOVE the truth God will make us 'rulers of more.'

Matt 13: 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

You remember that Paul told the Thessalonians that when people have no LOVE FOR THE TRUTH God sends them STRONG DELUSIONS and that is why we baptize little children WITHOUT their awareness of their own sinfulness and a TURNING to become a DISCIPLE or be enrolled in the Synagogue of Christ.

The New Testament never discusses whether grace is conditional or unconditional. It everywhere assumes that it is conditional, and speaks of it as conditional. In Paul's explanation of grace, his main point is the contrast between law as a (possible) way of salvation and grace as a way of salvation (Romans 3:24-28; 6:14-15). As ways of saving sinners, law is completely impotent and grace is God's blessed alternative. But,the main point here is that BOTH are conditional! Paul never suggests that grace is unconditional; he only insists that certain conditions are not compatible with the nature of grace.

Totally agree but GRACE does not mean "unlimited forgiveness for unlimited sins" but the POWER to be conformed to the image of Christ. That power is in the WORD and not through some osmosis. However, God will not teach us through His Word unless we ask Him for a mind- or spirit- cleansing without which His Spirit Word simply will not "stick" and bear fruit.

Baptism was a designed to be a witness to one's faith. In Samaria it was said that "when they believed Philip, preaching good tidings concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized both men and women" (Acts 8:12). As in Corinth, so in every other place the story of Jesus goes, "the Corinthians hearing believed and were baptized" (Acts 18:8).

I believe that Jesus, Paul and Peter made it clear that Baptism is not a SIGN of one's faith. Paul in Romans 6 said that Baptism is a FORM of the prototype gospel involving the work of God in Christ. Jesus said that faith PLUS baptism asks Him to SAVE them. Peter said that Baptism is EIS or in order to the REMISSION of Sins. That is baptism is not a SIGN but the operative means of salvation, remission of sins, sprinkling of the heart , giving A holy spirit or REQUESTING A good conscience. It is OPERATIVE because Jesus told me so. If people are baptized as a WITNESS of their faith it means that it is NOT for what all of the Bible and all of church scholarship SAID that it meant until Zwintli's "believer's baptism" as late as the year 1525.

I would remind one and all, the church at Corinth was a motile group of Biblically illiterate men whom the apostle Paul called "Brethren." If that outfit can be called the "church" I believe there is still hope for the church down at the corner of Walk and Don't Walk who "Believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God," This comes by "faith," a rational, cognizant, decision made by one who hears and belives. Not, that God "sweeps their minds of spirits causing them not to believe."

JR I think that is what Arlie Hoover called CHRONILOGICAL SNOBBERY. I would say that MOST of the transients moving from one port to another with the Corinthians probably meeting between at Cenchrea were tradesmen or women, merchants, philosophers and otherwise LITERATE men and women. Paul used the word brother in a fraternal way and not as an ENDORSEMENT that they were spiritual when he said that they were still carnal. 2 Cornithians and following history proves that they were never very faithful.

Jesus told the apostles to DISCIPLE by baptizing and further teaching. Disciples were called CHRISTIANS. I think that means that unbaptized people are NOT Christians or DISCIPLES because they have not REQUESTED A holy spirit or A good consiousness or CO-PERCEPTION by the submissive act of baptism. I have NO concern for the four churches on all corners of WALK and DON'T WALK. I am a DISCIPLE and my baptism is NOT YET a request to get on God's Joy Buss to Heaven.

The CLEAR teaching of this writer is NOT that God sweeps the mind of spirits causing them NOT to believe. Jesus removed the demons to make a CLEAN or HOLY spirit or mind so that the TRUTH would be welcomed IF they listened and did not invite more DEMONS back in.

"Believer's Baptism" which is the REVERSED order of God in Christ was hatched in the year 1525 to oppose baby regeneration by the Catholics. Perhaps your "students" were infant baptized? That Believer's Baptism which rejects ALL of the evidence which shows that FOR or EIS always means IN ORDER TO BE SAVED or IN ORDER for God to REMIT SINS. Believer's baptism has parallels in pagan baptism as a SHOW AND TELL of one's OWN righteousness.

http://www.piney.com/BapPagan.html


JR