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Perry
(no login)
68.206.160.121

Why I left

April 16 2005, 4:35 PM 

I left the COC because of the hypocrisy. Just like Ken puts it, they are two sides to the same coin. Libs versus Conservatives and they are both getting rich. We just have worship in our house. If we find a small congregation that does not believe in taking money to construct new church buildings then we may resume going to formal worship services.

Perry

 
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chuck sonn
(no login)
68.53.134.254

Dr. Nick

April 16 2005, 6:02 PM 

Hi Doc,

LS here...do you follow Buff Scott much?

blessings
chuck(literal seed)

 
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Perry
(no login)
68.206.160.121

Buff Scott?

April 17 2005, 9:42 AM 

Hello LS,
I'm not too sure of who Buff Scott is unless he is the one that used to send out that newsletter called Reformation Rumblings. I read it a couple of times. I'll google it.

Perry/ Dr Nick

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
68.19.238.231

Leaving the hypocrisy—not Christ

April 17 2005, 1:27 AM 

Perry,

There is nothing wrong whatsoever with worshipping in your house or at any location. The early Christians did much of that. Many congregations begin that way, especially overseas where access to a building for “worship” is almost impossible. Anyway, the “formal worship service” is of human construct in religion. Many Christians confuse a “worship service” with the real purpose of the gathering of the saints—which is simply as a school of the Bible so that disciples (believers and learners) of Christ can study more of God’s Word and partake of the emblem of our Savior’s sacrifice and death on the cross.

Organized, well-decorated and choreographed “worship services” do not at all come close to the simplicity of New Testament specifications regarding the assembly. What has religion gotten into these days? Yes, we can leave the hypocrisy, false doctrines and teachings, and feigned religion behind without leaving Christ and His body, the church.

Donnie

 
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Perry
(no login)
68.206.160.121

Donnie

April 17 2005, 9:47 AM 

Donnie,

We've never been happier than we are now. I believe that the bible was written to be read by all yet that is what the Catholic clergy tried to stop. In the last year or so I learned from reading Piney's discoveries that the assembling is for the purpose of teaching and that was the missing piece of the puzzle for me.

Perry

 
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chuck sonn
(no login)
68.53.134.254

same here

April 17 2005, 6:02 PM 

Perry,

Having been a member at Madison since the late 80's, and experiencing the changes we have gone through, the best thing that came out of it was Piney(Ken Sublett) on this website. The purpose for the site may not have had the most admirable intentions, but we'll leave that judgement to the only Judge.

Ken's teachings have been intense and not for the impatient. His teachings on Word discourse and study is the foundation of what we now teach at the truck stop worship services. My prayer is that more churches take the time to really understand what our resouces need to be spent on....the destitute and evangelism. Our greatest worship is the learning to be God's people who care.

blessings
chuck/literal seed

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
63.84.81.78

same here

April 17 2005, 11:34 PM 

Chuck, if I got anything right it is because you beat the hell out of me to make me focus. Hell a good word?

That is what Rabbi's do: they do not try to make love to you in pretty prose. A Rabbi I have read says that for a Jew "the highest form of worship is the study of the Word." Doing that you dont have to arm wrestle every point.

Our children get more "socialization" than they need and if home churching instills the love of the Word then that will beat turning them against God with ceremonialism.

Thanks, Ken

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
207.69.49.204

"Study": The Red Cape

April 17 2005, 11:02 AM 

Uh oh, Donnie, you said the real purpose for the gathering of the saints is to study God's Word and partake of the Lord's Supper. To our resident change agent(s) at this site, mentioning "study" is like waving the proverbial red cape in front of a bull. Be prepared to see mocking responses that twist "Be doers of the Word and not hearers only" into something like, "Worry more about doing the Word and less about studying it." The latter would parallel the fallacious thinking previously posted at this site, namely, "Esteem the Word Made Flesh over the Word," "Worry more about what God said or Jesus said than what the Word says," and "Worry more about being relevant than being right."

Then somewhere along the line, expect to see the usual, prideful assumption, "I'll wager you've never gone out into the highways and byways like I have...," but by now, that poor record has played so repetitively that it not only shatters, but the phonograph dies, and the stylus is ground to the nub.

 
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joe
(no login)
216.215.158.60

The bible said too!

April 17 2005, 10:59 PM 

Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

 
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brian
(no login)
192.158.61.143

Re: Tell Us Why You Left the Church of Christ

April 27 2005, 10:25 AM 

"...tell us exactly why you left this faith... Was our doctrine too strict? Was there too little love? Did you prefer instrumental music over a cappella singing? Did you want more programs and interactive features with group participation? Were the sermons too long or too theological?"

How about none of the above?

I left the cofC simply because I came believe that it's beliefs and practices did not line up with scripture. My choices were either sit still and deny my beliefs, speak up and get asked to leave, or leave on my own.

It had nothing to do with personal preferences, style, etc. It had everything to do with following the truth no matter where it took me.


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
207.69.48.247

RE Tell Us Why...(Brian)

April 27 2005, 12:17 PM 

Thanks for your response, Brian. But it would really help us if you gave some specific reasons why you left. You said that Church of Christ beliefs do not line up with Scripture. Please assist us in pointing out our deficiencies with specific New Testament Scripture references. I stress the New Testament, because our doctrine consists of the commandments of Christ in the Gospels, those laid out by Him in the Acts and the apostolic epistles in the New Testament, and in Revelation, not on the Mosaic Law or the doctrinal laws in the Old Testament (Gal. 5:4).

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
63.84.81.36

Tell us more

April 27 2005, 12:26 PM 

Brian, it would help if you filled in some details.

Ken

 
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brian
(no login)
192.158.61.141

Re: Tell us more

April 27 2005, 1:55 PM 

I didn't realize you wanted such specific details. Tell me why it would be helpful and I'll think what my major issues are.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
207.69.49.100

RE: Tell Us More (Brian)

April 27 2005, 5:03 PM 

In the introduction to this thread, I stated that we wanted specific reasons, because we are always being told that the traditional Church of Christ is a vanishing sect. If people are leaving for so-called "greener pastures," we would like to know what we're doing, if anything, that is driving folks away. That's why I mentioned some examples:

"Was our doctrine too strict? Was there too little love? Did you prefer instrumental music over a cappella singing? Did you want more programs and interactive features with group participation? Were the sermons too long or too theological?"

These were, of course, not meant to be an exhaustive list, just to suggest some possible causes for leaving. We are trying to determine if people are leaving because of truly scriptural reasons or if they just want a worship environment that's more entertaining and "pleasurable," because the traditional Church of Christ services are not designed to be "entertaining." They are designed to worship God/Christ and Him only. People will leave for whatever reasons they wish, but are those reasons really legitimate? Are they based on valid problems or from personal grudges?

Therefore, to say that the Church of Christ does not line up with Scripture is hard hitting and needs specific clarification. We cannot take your accusation with any degree of seriousness without your providing specific reasons, scriptural or personal, about why you left.

 
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brian
(no login)
24.158.160.210

Re: RE: Tell Us More (Brian)

April 28 2005, 1:06 AM 

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anywhere that you explained why this would be helpful to you.

I left because of theological disagreements. Do you need to somehow validate those reasons before you take them seriously. If so, why? Is your agreement with my particular theological views necessary in order to accept them as my personal explanation as to why I left?

The charge of being "hard hitting" is particuarly confusing. Is that what you call anyone who expresses disagreement with you? Is it only hard hitting because I didn't go into the details?

I tell you what. You give me one theological disagreement which you would condider a valid reason for leaving the CofC. If you can't tell me that, will you admit that there might be some which you just haven't thought of?

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
63.84.81.52

More, Brian, More!

April 28 2005, 10:37 AM 

Brian, you hit and run: pull pigtails and blame Jimmy.

I say that Jesus founded and EKKLESIA which is a SYNAGOGUE which is a school of the Bible.

Jesus PLANNED to be the only Master Teacher through His Words "as they have been taught."

Jesus instituted, Paul explained and illustrated the Lord's Supper in a NEGATIVE way (Corinth) and a positive way (Troas)

The direct command and examples of the early churches was for those who PROSPERED during the week would give to the DESTITUTE or POOR which translates in the SOUP LINE.

Anything beyond that began to SOW DISCORD and minimize the SCHOOL aspect. T. Campbell defined the church as SCHOOL and worship as READING and discussing the WORD.

Therefore, anything beyond that may be BAD THEOLOGY but not necessarily evil for establishing a community fellowship.

BUT, I am going to put words into your mouth:

You probably believe that NOT using instruments is BAD THEOLOGY.

Or, you probably believe that BAPTISM is NOT for the remission of sins.

Or, you believe that WOMEN should have a vocal, preside over role.

You have implicated BAD THEOLOGY so you need to define that bad theology for your own emotional health and to TEACH others the truth. We will probably DEBATE you. To question ANYONE'S belief is considered BAD THEOLOGY by too many false teachers but WE HAVE MOVED ON into the POSTannointed phase.

Ken

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
192.158.61.141

Re: More, Brian, More!

April 29 2005, 3:18 PM 

Bill - you deleted your post with the bad analogy about the doctor. It's probabally for the best because it also contained conclusions about me which were nothing more than wild guesses.

Ken - you notice I did not run nor did I place blame on anyone. I gave what I thought was an adequate answer. You wanted more. I want to know why and still do not have a decent answer as to what would be helpful about giving more details. You should apologize for your false assumptions.

Also, my emotional health is just fine thank you. Where do you come up with mess like that? I do not "need" to spell it out. Is this why you think it would be helpful for me to give more details? Becaues it would help me and it would teach others? Surely you can do better than that.

Anyhow, 1 out of 3 ain't bad. Maybe you'll be a little more careful about pigeonholing people next time.

- I DO NOT believe that NOT using instruments is bad theology.
- I DO believe that one can be saved w/o being baptized
- I DO NOT currently believe that women should be the spiritual leaders of the church

Now, let's add some more fuel to the fire :

- The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is actual and personal. It does not happen only as you read the words of scripture. (note: I realize different cofCs differ in opinion on this)

- The CENI hermenuetic is a flawed method of interpreting scripture.

- CofC has a works based salvation - whether they admit it or not. God does his part and man does his part. The truth is that God does all of it. In the CofC, you have to follow the right pattern to be saved and "remain faithful" in order to keep your salvation.

- The "remain faithful" part above encompasses non-essential requirements like worshipping without instruments, taking the Lord's supper every Sunday, not visiting other churches, etc. In some CofCs, it also includes no Sunday School, no kitchens, and a host of other things. And you don't even have to actually violate these things. Just having different opinions on them is enough to get you tossed out of the "true church" and declared reprobate.

- Grace is not "try your best and let God do the rest" as I was taught. I have no best. God's work accomplishes everything.

- In the CofC, all that is required to follow God's will is knowledge and willpower. Everything in scripture is plain to understand and all we have to do is do it. Hogwash.

- The CofC proof-texts the scripture horribly. They tie together unrelated scriptures just because the have a common word in them. They do not take into account the context in which something is written. They have no concept of the difference between "descriptive" and "prescriptive".

I could go on, but basically the CofCs are Pelagian in doctrine. If you are familiar with why Pelagianism was rejected then you are familiar with my objections to the CofC.

NOTE THIS : I will try to clarify anything which you find unclear, but I will not get into a debate. If that sticks in your craw then so be it.

Now, let me put some words in your mouth :

- You're not really interested in learning from someone else. What you really want is more ammo to convince yourself that you hold the superior position.

- You genuinely think that there are no valid theological reasons for leaving the CofC and don't think anyone can ever change your mind on this.

- You also genuinely think that most people who leave the CofC do so based on their likes and dislikes rather than hard doctrinal reasons.

- You have deluded yourself into thinking that following the right pattern is enough to get you to Heaven.

Enough? I think so.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
63.84.81.81

Good, Brian.

April 29 2005, 6:09 PM 

Now, that didn't hurt: I would agree with some of your reasons and that is why I don't do church anymore. However, I can assure you that none of the "brethren" know what a Pelagius is except from other preachers books. Not even Calvinists have read Calvin.
    I could go on, but basically the CofCs are Pelagian in doctrine. If you are familiar with why Pelagianism was rejected then you are familiar with my objections to the CofC.
I think that it would be some help if you explained the doma which can be rejected easily without agreeing with Calvinism. We never force you to attend or tithe or obey the unlawful LAW OF GIVING and no one will be sent to your door. So, you can define what Pelagius believed and maybe I can show you that anyone who had ever heard of Pelagius would know that literate members of the church of Christ believe in no such thing.

We will debate if necessary but THAT is the meaning of the word PREACH or the Latin Sermo.

Ken

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
63.84.81.81

CENI

April 29 2005, 7:39 PM 

Brian: - The CENI hermenuetic is a flawed method of interpreting scripture.

It might be flawed but churches of Christ DID NOT invent the concept. In fact, God laid it out clearly in the Old testament.

Here are some references to the Bible and ALL of the church historians who spoke on the issue. It was just natural to give God the RIGHT to communicate the only way WE can communicate directions.

That is why no trinitarian ever thought of THREE PEOPLE. Rather, Father is THOUGHT, Son is WORD and Spirit is breath or that communication which takes place between THUGHT and WORD.

http://www.piney.com/ComExamInfer.html

History saved the invention of a Family of Gods to the church of Christ articulated in the year 1942 by H. Leo boles, Lipscomb and the Gospel Advocate. John Mark Hicks attributes this neo-trinity which is Tritheism to Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly but Boles beat them to it and the GA spread the view among the GA wing of the church.

The HIGH CHURCH view which Christians use to define the Stoneites as a church while those under Campbell were called a SECT was articulated but NEVER approved by any church council at any time or place. The Catholic church defends the BIBLE as authority but gives itself the role of CONTINUING REVELATION as does Rubel Shelly etal. You don't have to agree with me but I have to tell you what I believe history proves.

Ken

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
207.69.50.103

Finally the Heart of the Matter

April 29 2005, 8:36 PM 

Brian, thanks for going into detail about why you left. That's all we desired from the very beginning. You didn't need to beat around the bush about it. I can't guarantee that others won't jump down your throat about your reasons, but I at least appreciate your honesty. Of course, I do not agree with many of your theological views, but as you noted, this is not the thread for debating them.

Now for others who aspire to post on this thread, take heed. This thread was created to study why people leave the Church of Christ. Earlier I stated our reasons for desiring this study, yet some are unwilling to accept those reasons. Very well, those who fault our reasons may do themselves and us a service by simply not posting here. It's your choice whether you respond or not; no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to do so. But if you decide to respond, just make life simple by giving us your SPECIFIC, DETAILED reasons for leaving and let us worry about WHY we want to know. There's no need to be evasive and uncooperative. Also please have the courtesy not to abuse this thread with hateful, spiteful responses.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

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The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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