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(Login kansaschristian)


May 14 2005, 9:08 AM 

I was uncomfortable with the exchange with Brian. You made it clear that you do not want to debate theological differences on the site (earlier post regarding music) but when someone mentions a theological difference people do jump on them (again see earlier posts) can not have it both ways (I believe that only theological reasons are sufficient but you have kind of asked people to not get into them so what you will be left with is personal preference reports which you will then say are inadequate).
I think Brian was right to ask "why do you want to know" because he was anticipating being bashed (I don't actually know him but I presume that was why he asked) and also earlier you had said you did not want to get into theological debates on this thread.
There are a lot on non-coc people on this site who are here because of the changing going on in their churches and I wonder if this thread is, although interesting, off topic. Do you want to gather this information so that you can say that all the reasons are shallow and inadequate and have less to do with the leading of God than the preferences of man?? I hope not...

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(no login)

Pastor Pretlow seems to understand why.

June 2 2005, 10:36 AM 

Brother Bill and others with ears to hear:
Charles Pretlow has a book out that seems to hit the nail on the head.

I read the online first chapter, my wife is reading the book, her reports on the book it seems that Mr. Pretlow has a handle on what is wrong with the Church in America.

In the first chapter Mr. Pretlow has raised a couple of RED flags with my "rule of thumb" acid test: 1)He is not using the KJV. 2)He thinks Bush is a good saving moral christain president. 3)He tinks that the Holy Spirit and the Church is restaining satan, which leads me to believe he does not understand II Thess 2:6&7, but other than these he has hit the nail on the head. It is a good read, you will just have practice scriptural reaping (Pick the good and leave the bad).

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

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(no login)

Re: Tell Us Why You Left the Church of Christ

June 15 2005, 4:52 AM 

I was born into a COC family, attended church three times a week, and was sent to a private COC school K-12. I was never baptized in the COC because even as a young child things did not add up. I was taught that God is love, but there was not much love at home, at church, or at school. My mother was emotionally unbalanced, and continues today to save my soul with every conversation we have. My father, considered to be a pillar of the church, beat me with a belt on a regular basis. Within the church I saw a lot of condemnation of people on the outside and a lot of hypocracy on the inside. It was legalistic and controlling. The school I attended had the second highest delinquency rate in the city, probably because we were pressured to be perfect instead of just kids. It has been particularly difficult for me to be a member of my family once I became an adult. My parents have had such a narrow view of the world and of life and I just do not fit into that narrow view. My father died a couple of years ago. During my last visit to see family my sister revealed to me that my father felt as though he had made a lot of mistakes with me. It was news to me because he never spoke such words to me before he died. In fact I can never remember him every apologizing to me for anything. I made a lot of compromises in my life (and I am still suffering the consequences of those compromises) in order to please my father. But in the end he left me hanging on my hook, and it makes me realize that the compromises I made to my own life were in vain. My mother will tell you that all she needs is her faith, and that her faith has been what has carried her through life. But a few years ago she finally had a complete mental breakdown, spent a few months in a psych ward, and takes a handful of pills every day in order to be able to walk out the door. Within my family nobody has allowed themself to get to know me as a person. They are too afraid because I am outside of their understanding. I think this is a direct result of the dogmatic opinions of the COC. It is just too restrictive. I really do not have any good memories of the COC. It is strange that I found this message board today. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about the COC, but was searching for information this evening. I went to see a film today that was about sexual molestation. I was molested as a child by a man who was a leader in the church. I was eight years old. I'm not sure about his name but can remember what he looked like, so I was surfing the web tonight to see faces of people who are still leaders of the church. There were a couple of people who stuck out in my mind, meeting the image of the person I remember, people who were in my church when I was eight years old. I found a lot of information about both men that I suspected and they are both respected leaders in the COC.

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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

Does the church of our Lord deserve this?

June 17 2005, 4:11 AM 


Really, “I feel your pain.” I gather that a major portion of your post deals with specific personal experiences—and used as reasons for “leaving the church” which, by your own admission, you were never a member of. But speaking of religious faiths in general, it’s without exception that personal and family problems exist in all of them.

I also gather that your references to the church are in general terms—too restrictive, dogmatic, condemnatory, hypocritical, legalistic, controlling, etc. But we also find those and other attributes in different churches—too freedom-oriented, defensive of their dogmas, too hierarchical in organization, etc.

I think we need more specifics from you. Don’t we find numerous warnings, restrictions, specific commands, rules, principles in the scriptures? Christ’s church is too restrictive in what specific areas? In your opinion, what specific doctrines do not conform to the teachings in the Holy Scripture? Don’t you believe that baptism toward the remission of sins is essential to salvation … and why not? What is your definition of legalism?

It’s totally unfair for anyone to blame the church of our Lord on the basis of personal experiences or another person’s behavior.


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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Don't Pass the Buck to the Church of Christ

June 17 2005, 10:56 AM 

I'm in agreement with Donnie in that one should not up and leave the Church of Christ because one's personal life has been filled with pain and suffering. There are abusive people in every faith, unfortunately. Just look at the number of Roman Catholic priests who have emerged in the news over having allegedly molested children. "Anonymous" writes at length about having been molested by someone who was a "leader" in the church. Was this unrighteous person a legitimate excuse for leaving the Church of Christ? Were there not many other righteous people in the church? The buck stops with each individual person.

As I survey the previous posts, I find that the vast majority (perhaps even ALL) of those who left the Church of Christ did so strictly for personal reasons, not because they found that our doctrine was completely unscriptural (one person claimed unscriptural doctrine, but in the final analysis, his own personal preferences lead him to that faulty conclusion).

As "reasons" for leaving, all too often most folks claim that we are:

1. "Too legalistic." This is an excuse for not wishing to follow faithfully the tenets of the New Testament. For example, to insist on baptism by immersion in water for forgiveness of sins and salvation is "legalistic," yet the New Testament commands it (Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21).

2. "Too restrictive." This is an excuse for not wishing to follow the tenets of the New Testament faithfully. For example, to bar women from leadership roles as elders and deacons is "restrictive" (even chauvinistic), yet the New Testament authorizes only males (1 Tim. 3). To ban musical instruments in worship is "restrictive," yet the New Testament does not specifically authorize them (Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16). What the NT does not authorize in worship, we do not practice in worship.

3. "Too judgmental and unloving." This is an excuse for supporting false teachers and churches who alter, subtract from, or add to, biblical principles so the Church will be more acceptable to the masses. For example, condemning the worldly practices of the Change Movement is "judgmental and unloving," yet the New Testament authorizes us to expose and avoid those that promote false doctrine (Romans 16:17, 2 John 9-11). The NT also condemns those who alter biblical principles (Rev. 22:18-19).

4. "Too self-righteous and believe that they are only folks going to heaven." This is an excuse for not wishing to do all that one can to be right with Christ through obedience to His Word. If one strives to follow Christ in all that HE has commanded (not what the denominations say), veering neither to the right hand nor to the left, is there any reason to believe that person will NOT be saved? (2 Tim. 4:6-8).

5. "Too wrapped up in doctrine while neglecting the poor and destitute." This is an excuse to focus on good works while ignoring specific biblical doctrine that may conflict with one's personal preferences. If we love God/Christ, we will keep ALL His commandments (doctrine) (1 John 5:1-5), which includes caring for the poor and destitute (Matt. 25:31-46). All verses KJV.

Therefore, to those who contemplate leaving the Church of Christ, examine your hearts very carefully and realize that the act you are about to commit is indeed based on petty, personal preferences, not on biblical principles.

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(no login)

Re: Don't Pass the Buck to the Church of Christ

June 17 2005, 11:05 PM 

Dr. Crump,

Your response to my posting is exactly why I left the COC. You asked for reasons, and I gave reasons. Then you attempted to re-label my reasons as excuses. You are giving me what I have always heard. I know and love some very fine COC members. I was immersed in COC beliefs more than anyone else that I know. I searched for Christ in the COC and did not find Him there.

It has been suggested that I might have chosen another religion because it might fit me better. This again is all I have ever heard, so please try to come up with something new. One’s personal experiences, what that person sees, hears, and lives are perfectly legitimate to bring to the table of faith. What I did not mention before about the physical abuse that I experienced was that much of it happened when I was in church. Squirming in my seat during church services would get me yanked out into the courtyard where I would be beaten with a belt. It was in full view of the other members of the church. It was abuse but was re-labeled as discipline. The only person who ever reached out to me as an abused child ended up molesting me. He had his own agenda and was not concerned with my welfare at all.

There was another child molester at the COC school I attended. He was arrested after trying to solicit sex from a young child in a department store bathroom. He was the Dean of Students. The school responded by saying he had had a nervous breakdown. There was no investigation into whether or not he had molested children at the school. It was simply re-labeled and covered up. Catholic priests who sexually abuse children were considered child molesters, while someone within the COC who did the same thing was having some emotional problems. I saw the same re-labeling with alcoholism, drug addiction, mental illness - you name it.

I mentioned in my original post that I witnessed too much condemnation of people on the outside and too much hypocrisy within the COC. I found Christ in another Christian faith. Within that faith people are free to be who they are and are able to be honest about their own spirituality and understanding of God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. The same problems exist in any church, but I do not wish to worship in a church that pretends to be immune to the human condition. I am happy for anyone who has found Christ within the COC, but I did not.

I have forgiven everyone who has wronged me in the past. One has to forgive in order to live life. You have attempted to re-label my reasons for leaving the COC and turn them into what you call excuses. You cannot change my experiences or my beliefs to fit your way of thinking. I know that might be all you know how to do, and I forgive that too.

I’m not sure what the true intention of this thread is. The first post led me to believe that it was strictly a fact-finding mission regarding the reasons why people have chosen to follow another faith. But some of the replies to the responses seem like there might be an agenda attached.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Sorry, But You Still Passed the Buck

June 18 2005, 4:37 PM 

Anonymous, no matter how much you may try to defend your reasons, you still passed the buck. So you squirmed in your seat and were yanked out and disciplined ("beaten") with a belt. Was that an excuse to leave the Church of Christ? Absolutely not! You had bad family experiences. Excuse to leave? No! One cannot hold the Church of Christ (or any particular faith) to blame for one's unfortunate family experiences, whether they occur inside or outside the church. As I said before, the buck stops with the INDIVIDUAL. But I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise, because you are adamantly opposed to the Church of Christ for PERSONAL reasons. And from what I discerned, your reasons for leaving were certainly not sound at all, for they had NO biblical basis. If you look close enough, you'll find hypocrites, child molesters, perverts, drunks, drug addicts, and other undesirables in ALL faiths, just as you found certain kinds of abominable people in the Church of Christ. They're called SINNERS. In fact, once in a while, you may even find whole congregations in ANY faith where the members all behave in an unchristian manner. In that case, you may choose to find another congregation, for such a congregation has become corrupt, but you DON"T desert your basic faith over what others do. Only YOU are accountable for YOUR actions, not someone else. You must work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

The reasons for leaving the Church of Christ (or ANY faith) should be based purely on BIBLICAL reasons: If that faith fails to follow the New Testament to the letter in ALL things prescribed in the Gospels, the Acts, the apostolic epistles, and the Revelation; if that faith fails to minister to people to save their souls (it seeks more to entertain them and give them a jolly, good-time experience as the denominations do). And believe me, I was once a member of another entertainment-oriented "denomination."

I'm happy that you think you "found Christ" in a faith other than the Church of Christ. I say this next for your own good: I encourage you to examine that faith closely and determine whether that faith is truly following the New Testament in ALL things and not base your conclusions on the superficial fact that this other faith may make you feel good about yourself. Is your new faith less "restrictive" than the Church of Christ? If so, does it conflict with the New Testament? Does the doctrine of your new faith match that of the New Testament? Most other faiths find some way to skirt the simple but strict teachings of the New Testament; many folks don't want to walk the "narrow path" therein and thus turn aside for greener, more pleasing faiths that cater to personal whims and desires.

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kansas christian
(Login kansaschristian)


June 18 2005, 6:17 PM 

Wow--this fellow says he is following Christ in a non-coc church--couldn't we just be happy for him?? I am glad he attends, presumably reads his Bible and prays. We don't need to pressure him. He didn't say he goes to a "seeker-friendly" church which this web site is designed to instruct people on...for all we know he goes to a doctrinally sound non-coc church. As I said in my earlier post: this thread seems to want to say that anyone who leaves does so for personal preference and not by the leading of God. I think this guy knows that people caused his difficulties and not the coc but if he can grow at another site let's allow him. He didn't say anything to lead me to presume that his church was not sound--he just said it was not coc and you made the presumption. The tone in your email was unkind, frankly.

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(no login)

Re: Sorry, But You Still Passed the Buck

June 18 2005, 10:31 PM 

Dr. Crump,

You asked a simple question and I gave you an answer. I did not ask for your opinion, analysis, or judgment. In fact, you have wiped your feet on the guidelines you created. You have no authority to judge me or the decisions I have made in my life. You have no authority to validate or invalidate anything I have done in my life. I’m not seeking your guidance.

Unfortunately, I did not read any of the other posts before replying the first time. If I had I would have immediately realized that your intentions were not to gain information from people, but to preach and judge. Why the dishonesty? If you had been honest you would have said, “tell me why you left the COC and I will give you my judgment.”

Instead, you set out bait to lure people in and then exposed your true intentions. Sounds like predatory behavior to me. That is the way abusers do their work. Why have you chosen such predatory tactics? Does it give you a jolly when you pass your judgment? Does it give you a jolly to preach at people? Does it give you a jolly to treat people like they are spiritually inferior to you? Are you able to be straightforward about your intentions, or are you afraid you will be rejected if you do? Do you use predatory tactics by choice, or were the same tactics used on you?

Who do you think you are to pass judgment on me? Who do you think you are to tell me what I should examine and what I should question? Who do you think you are to pick around in my life experience and then tell me what is right and what is wrong about it? What makes you an authority on what is Biblical and what is not? What makes your opinion truth? Where does the buck stop with you? You are not interested in “learning” from people who left the COC, you are interested in working your agenda. Why the dishonesty? I’m not interested in playing a sick little game with you.

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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

Did I misunderstand this declaration in your earlier post?

June 19 2005, 12:28 AM 


I have just reread Dr. Crump’s three guidelines for responding: (1) … Be specific … please refrain from generic responses like, “I hated” the church of Christ; (2) If you left and later returned …; (3) What … to do so that people would not leave….

It appears that in response to #1, you have covered [quite in detail] a lot of ground on the basis of your own personal experiences with your “environment” (but everyone has his/her own set of experiences—this includes myself). For intellectuals like you—and I meant that sincerely—your unfortunate set of circumstances in the past is hardly a valid point for discussion in this thread in light of the differences in doctrinal matters, vast or small, among various religious groups.

In addition, this website’s main focus has been on issues regarding changes taking place in churches—changes that have caused people either to be alienated or to leave their home congregation because the leadership has allowed or forced such changes to occur. I don’t believe that Dr. Crump’s intent was to use this thread as a confessional in order to relieve guilt or pain, although we sympathize and commiserate, or to use this thread to discuss social issues regarding child molestation, physical abuses, etc., and immoral lives of other people.

In essence, I have gotten the same impression that while you were specific in your initial post regarding your unfortunate experiences while growing up (and you added even more of the same in your subsequent post) … the impression that you literally hate and feel resentful toward “the church of Christ”—it is obvious! How else can I make that statement without sounding rude? And in your third post, you sounded hateful to Dr. Crump—this time personally.

Regarding point #2—this is somewhat inapplicable for the reason that, and I believe it is safe to say, you have not returned.

Regarding point #3—you haven’t made comments or suggestions. Or, have you? I guess it remains to be seen.

Now, let’s go back to point #2—the reason for the title of this post. “Did I misunderstand this declaration in your earlier post?” Your original statement was:

    “I was born into a COC family, attended church three times a week, and was sent to a private COC school K-12. I was never baptized in the COC because even as a young child things did not add up.”

With your level of intelligence, you would not soon forget this scriptural doctrine that a penitent or repentant sinner is not added to the church (Acts 2:37-42) until he has been baptized into Christ in order to have his sins remitted in the blood of the Lamb. Your declaration is that you were “never baptized in the COC because….” And the logical and intelligent conclusion is that you were never [your own word] a member of this church in the first place. And, therefore, you never left the church you were never a member of. Is this making sense? [Believe me … I’m not judging you. I’m only trying to make sense of your declaration. OK?]


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(no login)

Re: Did I misunderstand this declaration in your earlier post?

June 19 2005, 5:27 AM 


If people are leaving your church, then it is a very good idea to ask questions of people who have left. It is also a good idea to patiently listen to what they have to say and treat them, and the information they offer you, with respect. It is an even better idea to reflect on what people have to say and then ask yourself some tough questions. The questions you ask of yourself are much more valuable than information you can gain from other people.

If, because I was never baptized in the COC, you do not consider my opinion valid, then you will be faced with more people leaving your church and more changes in your future. If you only want to discuss doctrinal matters, then once again expect more people to leave and more changes in your future. Are you only interested in reasons? One’s experience goes well below that surface. Are you interested in going below the surface of what you are faced with? I will not wrap my experience in or opinion of the COC in pretty paper and stick a bow on it so as not to offend you.

I represent thousands and thousands of people who grew up in the COC feeling like they had no say in regard to their spiritual lives. I had no choice in what type of church I could attend. Church services were mandatory for me. I did not choose to go to a COC school, or to attend COC Bible class and chapel every day while at school. Questioning was forbidden. Attending services of another faith was forbidden. Making friends with children outside of the COC was discouraged. That is a lot of control. I did attended services at other COC congregations and they all seemed to be about the same. All of my COC classmates lived under the same level of control that I did.

Do I hate the COC? No! What I did hate were the experiences I had within the COC. One of the people I love the dearest in my life is a man who was, and still is, an elder in the COC that I grew up in. He has never questioned the decisions I have made in my life. He has always offered me unconditional love and treated me with a great deal of affection. His example has always been an inspiration to me. Because of his work that congregation has made some very positive changes. But he was only one man in my experience, and it did not give me the balance or shelter I needed as a child. I think a lot of people within the COC could learn a lot from him, especially about his demeanor and way of approaching and relating with people. The members within my mother’s church look after her and I love them for that because 2000 miles separate us. They helped take care of my father when he was dying from cancer, and were very supportive of me and the rest of my family after he died. How could I possibly hate that?

Anger is not hatred and should not be mistaken for hatred. I am angry about what I was subjected to as a child. And I am angry that religion is a wedge issue that prevents people from having meaningful relationships when points of view are different. A few years after I graduated from my COC high school, I was hired by the school to produce some marketing materials for them. I worked with one of my former teachers on the project. Although she was one of my favorite teachers when I attended there, I found myself at one point giving her a piece of my mind about the way I, and others, were treated by other teachers and members of administration when we were students. She was shocked, but responded that they had made a lot of changes. The changes, she said, were made because too many children were committing suicide. It took dead children before they were willing to listen. I knew it would come to that.

As for my last post and my response to Dr. Crump, I treated him the same way I would treat anyone who walked into my house uninvited and started trashing the place. I did not offer up personal information so that it could be twisted into a pretzel and trampled, and I will not tolerate it. There is nothing personal or hateful about that. No means no. It does not mean proceed if you are sure you know what is best for me. I’m not the only person who left the COC feeling spiritually violated, and I was never even a member. If that reason for departure is acceptable to you, then stay the course, continue to talk, and refuse to hear. I certainly have nothing more to offer you.

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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

What more can I say?

June 19 2005, 10:43 PM 


I’m afraid I’ll have to say that you HAVE CONTINUED to make accusations against the particular church that you resent and are obviously “angry” with [OK, I’m not using the word “hate” per your advice]. Continue to bash? Yes. Why? I believe I counted 14 times that you specifically mentioned “COC”—and that’s not even counting your other types of references to this church you are “angry” toward. You also continue to make a declarative statement that the things you have enumerated happen “in the COC” with no implication whatsoever that they are circumstances that occur in hundreds of religious faiths in the world. Therefore, if you should insist that for these reasons people are leaving this church, I must emphasize to you that this statement is an illogical argument when you make it an isolated set of circumstances that occur in churches of Christ without further qualification that it also happens everywhere else.

My point is that with all things being equal, meaning that since all religious faiths are affected by these HUMAN inclinations and preponderance, the bottom line is that it all comes down to differences in doctrinal issues, preferences, acceptable changes to one church or congregation that may not be acceptable to another. Simply, e.g., it is illogical for one to say that he is leaving religious faith #A due to the immoral behavior by one or two of its members for religious faith #B because all its members are saints.

Believe me … I have listened to you because I don’t normally respond to anonymous posters who are emboldened to make accusations because responses to such accusations are usually deemed as being judgmental. At the outset I mentioned that “I feel your pain.” Remember?

No, I’m sorry, but I do not intend to cease from discussing doctrinal issues. These are the important issues that change agents have used as tools so that as they cause division in the church, the ones who are swayed to their cause ultimately become part of their acquisition attempts.

Your example about someone who offered unconditional love is a little too late for discussion. Your example of children committing suicide, regardless of how true and unfortunate, is one more of your attempts to disregard one intent of this thread—to evaluate as to what different churches really believe that are right to some and wrong to others … that cause some to leave and others to remain.

There’s probably nothing more I can say to further our conversation. Either I will end up repeating myself (and I think I’ve already done that) OR you will keep adding more (which you have continued to do so) of your grievances toward the church you despise.

By the way, you forgot to mention the name of the religious faith of your preference. You don’t need to mention where … just the name of your religious organization. You obviously are very proud of this “better” church than the one you are so angry toward.

Thanks for posting!!! (I mean that very sincerely.)


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Dr. Bill Crump
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Anonymous, Thy Name Is Deception

June 19 2005, 9:23 AM 

What’s worse than a person who abuses this thread as a means to bash and criticize the Church of Christ? It’s a person who abuses this thread as a means to bash and criticize the Church of Christ but WHO NEVER WAS A MEMBER AT ALL. Worse still is someone who wraps themselves in the shroud of anonymity.

Donnie called our attention to the seemingly obscure fact that, amid “Anonymous’” personal rages against us, s/he managed to slip in that s/he had never been baptized in the Church of Christ; therefore s/he had never been a member! That really takes the cake!

“Anonymous” was really slick. S/he had read the introductory guidelines to this thread but chose to ignore the fact that we had invited responses only from FORMER MEMBERS of the Church of Christ. So “Anonymous” barged in, hurling vain and vague accusations against us while ironically trying to gain our sympathy with a mountain of verbiage about physical abuse, that somehow the Church of Christ was responsible for it all. (I’ll even admit that I got lost in the “problem list” and just about forgot that s/he was not a member.) Then when we sought more specifics from him/her, “Anonymous” turned viciously defensive and hotly accused us of being deceitful, of having a hidden agenda. That is indeed most revealing.

Ladies and gentlemen, I submit that the deception lies with “Anonymous,” who deliberately attempted to divert our attention not only toward her “problems” caused by an allegedly abusive Church of Christ, but also away from the fact that s/he was not even a member of the Church of Christ. Thus “Anonymous,” filled with venom and hate, slipped in the back door to jab and punch the Church of Christ. That is truly deceitful!

“Anonymous,” acting the wounded rabbit, claimed to have forgiven us for our alleged “deceit,” but the forgiveness is misplaced. We should be the ones forgiving “Anonymous,” for having abused this thread to publish his/her slander and hatred against the Church of Christ.

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kansas christian
(Login kansaschristian)

reply to Donnie

June 19 2005, 9:34 AM 

Hey, I understand your point about him not being a member this whole thread and it does appear that while the initial question seems innocent and interesting, just a fact finding mission, the replies do appear that there is an agenda. It appears that any answer will be evaluated and the person who has left will be told they are wrong. I am with those who are opposed to Purpose Driven movement and one thing that we noticed was that there was a lack of dialogue about issues--our pastor made it seem like anyone who didnt agree with his plan to build the big church,etc was stupid. This thread is doing the same thing--do you really think anybody else who left will give any honest feedback after seeing this person get a message that tells him that his personal experiences are just excuses??? How about saying Thanks for telling us your unfortunate story and we are so glad you are still in fellowship with God?? It is very much a cult like behavior if you think that people can not leave. Thanks for letting me give my opinion on this one.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Conclusions Drawn from the Survey

June 19 2005, 12:52 AM 

"Anonymous" made several accusations against the Church of Christ, for example that we are too "restrictive," yet s/he hid behind the cloak of anonymity and never provided an explanation, despite our requests. We won't belabor this or his/her "reasons" for having left the Church of Christ, either. It's no surprise that virtually all the other posts from those who left were made in partial or complete anonymity. That's revealing, and it is enough.

This thread has been a fact-finding survey, and we have not been deceptive. In any survey, an analysis of the "data" is eventually made, and conclusions are eventually drawn. That time is NOW. Contrary to the opinion of others, we HAVE learned from this thread. From studying all the previous posts, it has become clear that people leave the Church of Christ because of personal grudges, petty conflicts, or just plain stubborn determination not to follow the Scriptures if they don't coincide with personal opinions and preferences. The Church remains pure; there is no need to overhaul or repair the Church. Only dissenters and rebels need spiritual overhauling. Case closed.

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not likely
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Adventures in missing the point

June 19 2005, 1:18 PM 

This site is indicative of why many of us are leaving, if not bodily, at least in spirit. A human being pours out his heart to you. Telling you about a father's lost life and love, about a tortured mother and about a childhood abuse and you guys want to examine his arguments and parse his verbs. Anyone out there who still has a heart...RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!

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kansas christian
(Login kansaschristian)

To Dr Crump

June 19 2005, 1:53 PM 

It would be interesting to ask Martin Luther and the Reverend John Robinson (Pastor of the Pilgrims) about your comment "Only dissenters and rebels need spiritual overhauling." As they might attest, sometimes the spiritual overhaul leads one closer to God and away from the church of one's youth. Something to think about.

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(no login)

Case Closed?

June 19 2005, 4:54 PM 

Amazingly sad! Rather than lead people to Christ we rebuke them in an attempt to build ourselves up? Show me the Biblical principal to support this. I would suggest that the coC supporters do a few serious studies and you can use the word pride for one and humility for another. My guess is that with the hardened hearts on this forum that will take you through the Millennial Kingdom.

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still anonymous
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Re: Case Closed?

June 19 2005, 8:59 PM 

Dr. Crump:
No point in putting my name on here. I won't post again.
The church IS the people, the members; and we ALL need overhauling. If we are LIVING our doctrine, which should be love-based( as per Jesus), then there would not be much separation of our doctrine and of our walk.

And, I for one did not notice any empathy from either you or Donnie toward the fellow that said he had left the Church of Christ.I know many who have had terrible cand confusing experiences in their CHURCH lives; It wasn't that they had terrible experiences in their home: it was inflicted by church people.

I know of a Church of Christ school where a male teacher was calling young female students at home and being a little too close physically with them at school. It was hushed up and he is STILL at the school.
Not to just lnock the church pf Christ, I believe all pride based organizations which set themselves above all others and shame those who do not measure up and whop believe they are the only ones going to heaven have this problem. The Chruch of Christ needs to be very careful to eradicate cult like characteristics. That need to control and shame people puts the mainstream Coc very near the ICOC in some cases. Not all.

Ask a family who lost a loved one to sucide because they couldn't live up to CoC standards, how they feel about the CoC.

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Donnie Cruz
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YES, Case Closed!!!

June 20 2005, 12:09 AM 

Dear Still,

No, the church is the spiritual body of Christ, His bride. Why would you overhaul that which was established or founded by Christ? Just because none of us is perfect or sinless, it doesn’t mean that Christ or its foundation is imperfect and needs overhauling. Nor does our imperfection make the church a cult. That which has Christ the Rock as its foundation does not need overhauling!!!!!! You and I and our individual personal lives may need overhauling—but not that which Christ built.

BTW, correction, please, to your remark that you did not notice any empathy from either one of us. Do a search on what Dr. Crump and I have been saying and see if by chance you come across these words and expressions: “I feel your pain” … “your unfortunate family experiences” … “I have listened to you” … “we sympathize and commiserate” ….

We don’t need any more of your blaming the church nor attacking the standards and principles it abides by as set forth in the New Testament. Our imperfections must not lower God’s standards. We cannot change …

  • Luke 14:27—“And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”
  • Gal. 6:5—“For every man shall bear his own burden.”
  • Rev. 2:10—“Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” And there are more admonitions in the epistles. If we cannot live by these principles, then, we shouldn’t blame God and His church. But there is comfort in the truth and promise in …
  • I John 5:3—“For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.”

Meanwhile, Paul accurately stated in Acts 20—

    “ [28] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. [29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.” It is happening now!


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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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5 Godly Elders
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