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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Why Change Agents (Max Lucado, et al) Have Left the Church of Christ

July 8 2017, 12:58 PM 

Scripture,

"Tell Us Why You Left the Church of Christ" -- that statement should be directed to the post-modern Community Church Movement advocates, proponents and followers. Wikipedia is accurate in stating that Max Lucado of the FORMER Church of Christ in Texas is no longer affiliated with churches of Christ. He is one of those CCM advocates who dared and succeeded in dropping the name "of Christ" from its church's name.

If I recall correctly, Madison promoted the RightNow Media sometime ago with the reasoning that members of the congregation are expected to be selective in what they deem to be biblical in doctrine and teaching. Yeah, right!!! With the least amount of teaching now in "Bible" classes of New Testament doctrine, especially in the now-generation, is that really a valid reasoning? I think not!!!

You are correct. To churches of Christ: WAKE UP!!! Of all people in the church: ELDERS, WAKE UP!!!

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Why Change Agents (Max Lucado, et al) Have Left the Church of Christ

July 8 2017, 3:47 PM 

We don't worry about preachers who leave the Church of Christ dragging elders and the flock with them. What we worry about is the USUAL practice of Leaving the Doctrine of Christ and KEEPING the property of others. That is called Robbing Temples

Rom. 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom. 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

Those who leave or invite you to "get out or get over it" do not understand that THEY are the Sectarians or Heretics. The problem with both sides is that their CORE is to keep the Word of God and Jesus as the ONLY teacher as silent as possible.

I always noticed that the janitor would drop by and tell you why your latest project didn't work. Knowing what doesn't work doesn't help much if your job is to make it work.

Those who boast about LEAVING to gain credit with others do not understand the meaning of CHURCH or WORSHIP. Heresy or Sectarianism is IMPOSING something which is not required to carry out the mission of the Assembly of Christ.

Christ ordained APT elders as Pastor-Teachers and their ROLE is to:

Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Titus 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Titus 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
Titus 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

[linked image]
LECTIO-DIVINA IS
[linked image]

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Why Change Agents (Max Lucado, et al) Have Left the Church of Christ

July 8 2017, 5:05 PM 

The key term for all that is infiltration. When successfully accomplished by whatever culture- or purpose-driven methodologies, the eldership becomes ineffective; division is inevitable (division among its elders, as well as its members); the doctrine of Christ is perverted; church property is "stolen."

For the church of Christ, it would have been better if change agents (Max Lucado, Rubel Shelly, Jeff Walling, et al) had simply left the church and joined denominational churches of their choices. Of course, that did not happen. Sad and unfortunate!!!

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Why Change Agents (Max Lucado, et al) Have Left the Church of Christ

July 8 2017, 9:13 PM 

It makes a lot of sense to steal a property and flock than to build one. Being thieves and liars is part of the MARK of the sons of the Devil: they speak on their own.

Tom Haddon said something to the effect that "we are going to turn your church into a theater for holy entertainment." What comes out is neither holy nor entertaining.

The Purpose Drive to spread Raca or Hate Words against the historic church like a machine gun and plan to use about a decade to do an end run around the older owners.

That's fine: It is well defined and in the words of Jude FOREORDAINED by the same old spirits who wrecked the whole creation once.

"Lucado said he represents a 'movement of grace' in the Churches of Christ, 'a move away from legalism.' I sense that we are seeing a movement away from the older rigid doctrinal positions of the various denominations by the younger men who have taken charge.

Lucado holds an unscriptural view of Christian unity which is helping to break down the walls of separation between truth and error and which is preparing the way for the building of a one-world apostate "church." Lucado helped organize an ecumenical alliance of pastors in his home town, which has grown to more than 100. The pastors are learning to "put away differences" in order to deepen personal relationships. It includes women pastors, Charismatics, and others. Cindy Daniel, for example, is co-pastor with her husband of Expect a Miracle Church. Newman Dollar, pastor of City View Christian Fellowship, who, with Lucado, was one of the founders of this ecumenical fellowship, told the San Antonio Express-News (Feb. 19, 2000) that he wants to see more pastors from Catholic churches participating.


My old congregation and the local Hohenwald crowd got neutered doing a masculine in 1996 and returned radically converted.

Lucado's unscriptural view of unity was also evident when he spoke at the 1996 Promise Keepers Clergy Conference for Men in Atlanta, Georgia. According to Promise Keeper leader Dale Schlafer, priests, bishops and pastors were present from every denomination in America.


The TWO DAYS of Hosea speak of the Christian Dispensation which largely ended with Jubilee 2000.

Max Lucado "sees visions", Rubel Shelly says we should "hear audible voices", and most claim that A spirit is guiding them into the REAL TRUTH. This is why Paul warned against the feminine and effeminate. It isn't lying if you say that Jesus didn't know about our culture!!

The shaking and moving is to REMOVE everything that can be shaken. God's Prunings are pretty severe.

Dianna speaks of driving the rats into ruin. That was the story of the Pied Piper.

I don't believe that any honorable denomination would hire people willing to betray their own flock.

[linked image]

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Jul 8, 2017 9:32 PM


 
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Dianna Howell
(Login dianna01)
107.77.249.2

Pied piper

July 9 2017, 5:06 AM 

I had asked Ken about the swine in Matthew 8. These verses reminded me of the pied piper leading the animals off the cliff by playing music. The evil spirits were allowed to go into the herd just like when David played music to Saul. The music David played "soothed the savage beast". I suppose this distracted Saul while his kingship was being taken from him.

Matthew 8:30-32 (KJV)
And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. [31] So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. [32] And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
1 Samuel 16:23 (KJV)
And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
1 Samuel 18:10 (KJV)
And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand.

 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Wanna Try that Response Again?

July 9 2017, 10:07 AM 

Dianna said "The music David played "soothed the savage beast". I suppose this distracted Saul while his kingship was being taken from him.

That is your typical concernedmembers negative and FALSE diatribe towards music. Dianna, that answer would make Ken proud.

The REASON that Saul's kingship and kingdom was taken from him was because he failed to do what God had asked of him. It had NOTHING to do with music. But you knew that already.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Wanna Try that Response Again?

July 9 2017, 11:58 AM 

Of course you are right, but 1 Samuel 16:23 has nothing to do with Saul's violating God's CENI.

 
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Dianna Howell
(no login)
107.77.249.2

Music

July 9 2017, 8:27 PM 

I was speaking with an older black gentleman one day and he informed me that many of the black neighborhoods were being pushed out of the downtown Nashville area. He said the rent had made it so expensive that he had no choice but to leave. This in turn pushes them away from the Metro transit leaving the most vulnerable with no transportation. I wonder if this has partially been caused with the growth of the music industry? I will admit I adamantly don't like the music industry and the moral depravity that goes along with it. It would seem that as music has gotten worse so has society. Then you can add to the fact that people are making fortunes from selling "Christian music". A whole economy has been geared around this industry, but no one seems to count the cost to the less fortunate. Is that the gospel? To strip people of their money, running them out of their homes and making their lives more miserable. So no, I don't like the music industry or the entertainment industry muscling in on the church of Christ! I don't buy what they are selling.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Music

July 9 2017, 9:03 PM 

Plato and others noted that the high-pitched religious singing is both a mark and cause of a gender-bleed. I have little doubt that "drumming" sex and religion with a rock beat having replaced country is a factor in the explosion. History notes some similar periods including the Levites (soothsayer-sorcerers) and the 100 percent connection in action, dress and persona in Jerusalem and all sacrificial altars.

"Progressives" with an IQ smaller than their shoelace size lie that the reason the Tennessee Churches did not use musical instruments in "worship" was that they were too ignorant and too poor to afford instruments. Don't tell them that Nashvile was a center of opra and musical performance very early. Major performers and world-renown orchestras came to Tennessee. No one was too poor or two ignorant to own several musical instruments. A major shift came after the Civil War when the city was filled with ex-slaves with no job and prostitutes who followed all military. Pseudo-churches will demolish downtown churches and the Lucifer-Principle of Music and Commerce will get worse and worse.

Nashville is a city set on seven hills with its own Parthenon a temple to Athena was built in 1897 for the Centennial Expositions. Church fathers with a lust to stack more and more people to become paying customers has always been a cancer from Babylon to Rome. However, it may be like a Pyramid Scheme which has to suck in more suckers or collapse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenon_%28Nashville%29

The Disciples-Christian Churches used PSALLO in 1894 as authority for the massive sowing of discord trying to "infiltrate and divert" Nashville churches. Lipscomb says and I know of no exception that psallo was used to justify sowing musical discord for the first time in recorded history.

Almost exactly 100 years later the Jubilee launched another assault against faithful churches who knew better than to use music or rhetoric from the command for the Church of Christ (the Rock) in the wilderness. Rubel Shelly and Jeff Walling along with the Madison preacher intended to RESTRUCTURE all churches of Christ. That largely failed but the big lie that "The only role of Church is worship" and the "musical Worship team" has been the stalking horse that has done as much damage as forcing instruments. A musical worship team is "a legalistic end run" around the ACappelle-only Cult.

We have some close connections to the "music" group especially production. We have noted that KOMA was known to be induced by musical instruments. Once you get cracked by associating Musical Worship in the Flesh with Spiritual worship IN THE PLACE of the spirit, recorded history shows that "there's no turning back."

I am collecting some Greek use of David's Halal.

"And Euripides does likewise, in his Bacchae, citing the Lydian usages at the same time with those of Phrygia, because of their similarity:

But ye who left Mt. Tmolus (Sardis was on this mt.), fortress of Lydia,
revel-band of mine, women whom I brought from the land of barbarians as my assistants and travelling companions, uplift the tambourines native to Phrygian cities, inventions of mine and mother Rhea.

And again, happy he who, blest man, initiated in the mystic rites, is pure in his life, . . . who, preserving the righteous orgies of the great mother Cybele, and brandishing the thyrsus on high, and wreathed with ivy, doth worship Dionysus.

Come, ye Bacchae, come, ye Bacchae, bringing down (double entendre) Bromius, (boisterous one) god the child of god, out of the Phrygian mountains into the broad highways of Greece.


Paul's warning against WRATH points to "righteous orgies of the great mother Cybele"



 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Tell Us Why You Left the Church of Christ

July 9 2017, 12:37 PM 

[linked image]

 
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Dianna Howell
(Login dianna01)
107.77.249.7

Music and entertainment

July 11 2017, 9:27 AM 

Since I don't know all the music or entertainment industry, I shouldn't say they are all bad. I still sing many of the old gospel songs when I'm alone and working. I would also like to add that before this site I had never heard of a "praise" song. Why is it being pushed into the congregational language? Ken has many papers refuting the work of the theologians out of David Lipsombe regarding this issue. Many of the gospel songs at least try to convey the scriptures, but I don't see that happening in praise songs. As Ken and I both demonstrated you can praise someone or something without singing or using poetry.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

When Ken Is Persecuted for Exposing the Heathen Music of CCM

July 11 2017, 4:15 PM 

Why???

So, let's let others speak. Here are a few statements from a 6,621-word narrative written by David J. Stewart, Top “Christian Music” Artists (Hit bottom in God's eyes):

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/CCM/christian_rock_bottom.htm

“...Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” —2nd Timothy 3:12

All of the following “Christian Music” performers (like DC talk and other pseudo-Christian entertainers) have at one time been recognized as “top” Christian music entertainers. Unfortunately, to be popular with the world is an extremely bad thing in God's eyes. The Bible proclaims in James 4:4 that to be a friend of the world is to be the ENEMY of God. The word “friend” in James 4:4 means “to aid, or assist.” We are living in a generation of worldly believers who are assisting Satan by creating a bridge between Christianity and the Godless world through heathen music [emphasis mine, dc].

The Rock Bottom List...

Third Day ... Point of Grace ... MercyMe ... Switchfoot ... Michael W. Smith ... TobyMac ... DC Talk ... Stryper ... Gary Chapman ... Katy Perry ... Jars of Clay ... 77's ... Petra ... Newsboys ... The Daniel Band ... Tourniquet ... As I Lay Dying ... Amy Grant ... Tonex ... Cowboy Junkies ... Holy Soldier ... Thousand Foot Krutch ... Lust Control ... Nichole Nordeman ... Zoegirl ... Casting Crowns ... Jeremy Camp ... Rebecca St. James ... Project 86 ... Seventh Day Slumber ... Day of Fire ... Steve Green ... Steve Taylor ... Johnny Cash ... Mark Farner ... Ooberfüse ... Michael English ... Carman ... Avalon ... Jennifer ... Derek Webb ... Kurt Carr ... Mark Schultz ... Chris Rice ... Steven Curtis Chapman ... Audio Adrenaline ... Relient K ... BarlowGirl ... Todd Agnew ... Ray Boltz ... Jadon Lavik ... Bebo Norman ... Rez Band ... Deliverance ... Zoegirl ... White Heart ... Mortification ... Sandi Patti ... POD ... Carrie Underwood ... Crystal Lewis ... Dolly Parton ... Kutless ...

Working with the Devil

Many CCM artists who have sold millions of records, winning the minds and hearts of tens-of-millions of people, are now coming out of the closet that they are homosexual; including, Tonex, Ray Boltz, Marsha Stevens, Jennifer Knapp, and others.

The sad truth is that most of today's Contemporary Christian Music (CCM) is straight out of Hell. In fact, there is nothing “Christian” about much of their music. It's the same as the good cop/bad cop theory. If the separated Christian singers hobnob with the unseparated worldly “Christian” singers, then it makes one question the legitimacy of the entire Christian music industry.


[Perhaps a must-read of the entire article for the Change Agents and their disciples in the church, as well as "Worship Leaders" and the"Praise Teams" in larger churches of Christ.]

 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Who is Whom?

July 11 2017, 5:22 PM 

Donnie said "So, let's let others speak."

Whom might be the "others?" Others being you, Dianna, Ken? Maybe Scripture???

You got a mouse in your pocket?

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Who is?

July 11 2017, 7:25 PM 

Dave,

Ken has been continuously educating us regarding "the HEATHEN MUSIC." Via pictures (images), historical evidences and scriptures in his writings. But many in the Progressive Movement have been referring to anything he presents as "mythology" ... rather than learning the truth about "heathen music" being associated with mythology.

"Others" is in reference to authors and writers such as David J. Stewart who wrote the above article. The message in the article resembles that of anyone who strongly opposes the "heathen music."

So, what do you think, Dave? Which of the heathen [happy.gif] musicians or groups is your favorite?

 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Don't Take This as Being Sarcastic

July 11 2017, 8:18 PM 

Donnie stated and also asked a question
"So, what do you think, Dave? Which of the heathen happy.gif musicians or groups is your favorite?"

I can't remember on which particular post Donnie, but you were typing lyrics of an older hymn.

SO YOU, DONNIE CRUZ, get the nod for MY favorite HEATHEN musician. Do you participate in a group??? If you do, then that is MY favorite HEATHEN group.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Don't Take This as Being Sarcastic

July 11 2017, 8:58 PM 

Heathen may Sing if they Know Command is to Speak!

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Don't Take This as Being Sarcastic

July 13 2017, 5:54 PM 

Dave,

Did you not read the list of "Christian Rock Music" artists, the list provided by the author David J. Stewart in his article above? His list included Michael W. Smith, Amy Grant. Zoegirl, et al. Add Twila Paris to that list.

They've "been recognized as 'top' Christian music entertainers.... We are living in a generation of worldly believers who are assisting Satan by creating a bridge between Christianity and the Godless world through heathen music." Not my words.

I do not sing their songs. Maybe you do [participate in their "heathen" music]. Maybe you do not.

 
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Dianna
(Login dianna01)
107.77.249.3

Why?

July 11 2017, 5:23 PM 

Donnie, was the "Why ???" Directed to me? That was a rhetorical question I was asking. I'm glad you finished answering the question? I know both you and Ken have been persecuted, and I thank you for standing strong for the truth in Christ Jesus!
If they keep everyone arguing and divided, they think the gospel will not be preached and everyone will forget The Lord. If I said something that frustrated you I am sorry! Keep up the good fight!

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

A 7 woord post Progressives can't read.

July 11 2017, 5:36 PM 

To be Christian means Book chapter Verse

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Why?

July 11 2017, 7:50 PM 

Dianna,

Your exemplary conduct in posting messages is admirable and doesn't go unnoticed. May your contribution and participation in the discussion continue for a long, long time. (What about this: I can hardly wait to publish your messages even before I finish reading it -- I just feel ascertained that the message is kind, Christian-like, fresh or thought-provoking. So, keep those posts coming.) CM appreciates you!

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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