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Re: Why?

July 11 2017, 9:53 PM 

"Praise song" means different things to different people.

It's like "mountain dew", which is good for plants but not always good for people, particularly the manufactured "dew."

How could anyone be against mountain dew?

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Richard Logan
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Why I Left the church of Christ

September 11 2017, 8:04 PM 

So many reason's but I'll narrow it the best I can.

Because I was taught, by my father, a church of Christ preacher (very conservative), that everyone that didn't worship the way the "church" worshiped were going to hell! I was a member of the "church" for 51 years before I had a revelation...I think from much study, and from God. I finally realized that there is no such thing as a scriptural worship service outlined in the New Testament. I realized that what I was taught was not Christianity, rather it was a man-contrived ceremony that was/is a waste of my time. If the worship service was important it would've been outlined, in detail, on the structure of said service. Furthermore, I wasn't really taught what it meant to be a Christian, rather I was taught how to follow the "club" rules of the church of Christ.
I have learned that Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with that Sunday morning ceremony, rather Christianity is a lifestyle, a choice to love my neighbor as myself. It's not about running off people who are sinners, the church of Christ is good at that, rather it's about loving each other, becoming family with one another, helping one another, and sharing burdens with each other. It's about feeding the hungry, giving water to those who are thirsty, clothing those who are naked (Matthew 25th chapter talking about the judgement day).
I find nothing in scripture about some Catholic ceremony, which all denominations do. I used to believe the church of Christ was not a denomination, but my eyes have been opened. You don't think it's a denomination? Consider this: we all go sit in pews, in neat little rows. We pay song leaders to lead singing. Preachers get paid very well to get up on Sunday and give a message, visit the sick, perform weddings, preachers are the one person a "sinner" wants to talk to when life gets hard. That sounds just like the catholic church to me! Oh, and that Sunday morning ritual of "communion" is straight out of the Catholic church as well.
Communion, as mentioned in I Corinthians the eleventh chapter was a talking about the Lord's Supper being a meal the church ate together in fellowship. Don't think so? Go read that chapter again, starting with the 17th verse. I'm all for doing the Lord's Supper, and I do it every Wednesday night with my church family where I attend. You might disagree about it, but I know I'm right for my sake. The bible says to work out my own soul's salvation, with fear and trembling!" The bible also tells us in II Thessolonians 4:11 to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, "you should mind your own business."
I left the church of Christ because of the false emphasis, on false, man-made worship that'll surely send one to hell if you don't do it right. Rom 12:1 tells me to present my body as a living sacrifice...that's the one true act of spiritual worship. James 1:26-27 tells us that religion that God accepts as pure and perfect is to help the widows and orphans in their time of need. I don't recall hearing either of those things being preached on in the dozens of church of Christ I've been in my whole life. All I remember hearing was the plan of salvation, and how everyone else was going to hell because they didn't worship correctly. I remember the older folks exclaiming how a preacher was a "true preacher of the gospel", and that preacher never said anything about what it really means to be a Christian.
You folks that come from a church of Christ background know I'm telling the truth here! You've all heard it and it's all false man-made doctrine.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Why I Left the church of Christ

September 11 2017, 8:45 PM 

Richard, we represent Scripture and are not clergy.

Preachers rarely speak what the "Prophets and Apostles" taught. The Restoration of The Church of Christ was proposed by John Calvin and the Campbells as Presbyterians restored MOMENTARILY what they define as:

CHURCH is a school of Christ.
WORSHIP is reading and musing the Word of Christ.

Everything beyond that was to be a "society" which carried out "pure religion."

Born in 1930 I can remember when that really worked. I believe that it was what my mom would call "draft dodgers" who flocked to the colleges and trashed the church. Most of the missionary work post WWII was carried out by ex soldiers. Most of the institution building and dogmas came from the "draft dodger" preachers. I knew a primary leader in my Alabama youth. Mom called them Boot-Jack preachers. I never figured that out but my dating age, still beautiful sister at 91 called them MUD and refused to associate with them.

They became preachers as OCCUPATION. It is a fact that most of the changes came from Baptists.

It was not preachers but Jesus and many scriptures marks the SEAL of salvation.

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This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Sep 11, 2017 8:53 PM

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Richard Logan
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September 11 2017, 9:44 PM 

Ken, I now appreciate the things you've been saying on this blog. I used to not understand, but now I do. I am DONE with religion. I am a member of the CHURCH OF CHRIST, but not the denomination that calls themselves that!

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Religion

September 11 2017, 11:02 PM 

Richard, greetings!!!

I've done enough "personal" practice both verbally and in writing that whenever I make reference to the New Testament church that Christ established in the first century, I make it a habit to not capitalize the word "church" in the middle of a sentence. I make reference to "the church of Christ" or "the church of Christ Jesus" or "Christ's church." Romans 16:16 is a good example: "The churches of Christ salute you."

The reason for that is that regardless of how "Christians" through the centuries have mishandled the truth and mismanaged the structure of the church built by Christ, there remains "the church" that was founded by Christ in Jerusalem (not Rome).

There remains the truth that no one can become a member of or be added to the church of Jesus Christ without being buried with Christ in baptism and resurrected with him to begin newness of life. (I believe that this is truth that has been abused to the point that along the way "the church of Christ" has been accused of propagating the "notion" that only those in the "Church of Christ" are going to heaven.)

I agree with you on being not a member of the perceived "Church of Christ" denomination. But being a member of "another" denomination is not the solution, either. So, now then, which "denomination" is the best of all denominations?

Honestly, the true church of Christ is not a denomination. It is the body of Christ that we can identify with so long as it follows the doctrine of Christ that once someone is added to that body by immersion for the remission of sins, the new Christian must do good works and remain faithful in order to receive eternal life in the end.

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Re: Religion

September 12 2017, 12:57 PM 

The "mainline" Church of Christ fellowships along these lines: progressive churches and traditional churches.

Then there is the non-Sunday School Church of Christ, one-cup Church of Christ, and "noninstitutional" church of Christ.

The more video-technical type of Churches of Christ usually publish their CREEDs on the internet.

Doctrine of the mainline Churches of Christ is moving closer to the mainline Protestant teachings, with some distance increasing between them and Catholic teachings.

There are several problems with cutting oneself off from Churches of Christ. One is that you lose the church's emphasis on weekly scriptural teaching. Continued absence from group (corporate) worship weakens Biblical understanding generally. Absence erases communion with Christ and with the church. This is the danger is cutting ties with the Churches of Christ.

It seems that the mainline Churches of Christ are more influenced by Evangelicals than they are by Catholics of mainline Protestants.

Those who complain about the narrowness of Churches of Christ are often the same ones that eventually separate themselves from all Christian worship.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Religion

September 13 2017, 11:49 AM 

You are lucky today that neither my spirit nor my flesh is very willing.

God defined the synagogue or church in the wilderness which is defined as:
Exclusive of vocal or instrumental rejoicing or rhetoric: Exodus 18 authorized a senior, vocational elder to lead what became the synagogue or School of the Word for the godly.

INCLUSIVE of Rest, Reading and Rehearsing the Word as it was delivered to Moses.

2. The kingdom of God does not come with observation which is defined as religious observations claiming to have unique connections with God.

3. Jesus died to give us REST from the laded burdens and burden laders. And invited the twos and threes to come OUTSIDE the gates to REST AND LEARN OF ME. That guarantees reproaches and bot fame and fortune.

Is. 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
Is. 57:17 For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
Is. 57:18 I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
Is. 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the Lord; and I will heal him.
Is. 57:20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
Is. 57:21 There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.
Is. 58:1 ¶ Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.
Is. 58:2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.
Is. 58:3 ¶ Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.
Is. 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
Is. 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord?
Is. 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Is. 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
Is. 58:8 ¶ Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy rereward.
Is. 58:9 Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
Is. 58:10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:
Is. 58:11 And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
Is. 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him,
not doing thine own ways,
nor finding thine own pleasure,
nor speaking thine own words:

Is. 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Religion

September 14 2017, 5:07 PM 

Yes, Ken, the church is the school of the Word. The assembly of the church is totally unrelated to the "musical worship" -- a form of idolatry -- that is prevalent in evangelical and "Community" Churches today and in some cases certain congregations of the church of Christ.

Christ's invitation to "come learn of me" is still open. Only those who've been converted to Christ by being buried with him in baptism (Romans 6:4; Col. 2:12) are added to the church (Acts 2:47; Acts 5:14).

With that teaching regarding conversion, I do not see how those who badmouth the church on account of their own personal experience, can condemn or fault the church and its teaching based on the Scripture.

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Religion

September 14 2017, 4:43 PM 

Scripture comments:

Those who complain about the narrowness of Churches of Christ are often the same ones that eventually separate themselves from all Christian worship.

I concur. The "narrowness" complaint has more to do with an individual or a group of individuals in the church who, by the complainer's standard, are deemed to be "hypocrites." Then that complaint extends to accusing the church of Christ (the entire body of Christ) as a denomination not adhering to the doctrine of Christ.

There is an ex-Church-of-Christ forum where venting against the church is prevalent. Their hatred for the church of Christ, as well as their insults to their heritage and to their parents' upbringing, are apparent. That's really sad and unfortunate.

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Richard Logan
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RE: Religion

September 13 2017, 12:16 PM 

You just made my point for me. You want to correct my grammar, whether or not I Put Church or church...semantics here. I made it all caps to make a point. This is very indicative of the "legalistic" mess I choose not to be a part of. This is exactly why I don't attend what many consider a main-line church. I do meet with a group of Christians that do study the bible together, we do eat the Lord's Supper, we do visit the sick, we do give money to the poor. What we don't do is the denominational catholic "ritual" thing. The denomination "church of Christ" you attend does do the ritual, man-made, service.

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: RE: Religion

September 13 2017, 11:49 PM 


I wasn't correcting your grammar. I understood it clearly when you emphasized that the "CHURCH OF CHRIST" is not a denomination. The "habit" I have, as I already mentioned, is personal with me -- that "the church of Christ Jesus" is not a denomination. It is also referred to scripturally as "the kingdom of Christ" (Matt. 16:18-28; Acts 1-2) or simply "the body of Christ" (I Cor. 12:27; Eph. 4:12). That's what I meant by not capitalizing the word when used in a sentence. It helps me think that the church established by Christ in Jerusalem (not Rome) is not a denomination.

I would like to say again that even though man's perversion of the truth (or varying opinions about the truth) has resulted in hundreds and hundreds of denominations worldwide, it has not diminished the identity of the church we find in the New Testament, the body of Christ, as the true church. Joining a denominational church of one's choice does not resolve the perceived issue that that there must be a true church somewhere with some "denominational" name.

If we're dealing with denominationalism, I would say that most of the denominations are about even, or the same, in terms of various religious groups' mission or goal to help those in need, to "seek and save the lost," etc. So, there's the question: Is one denomination as good as another? Perhaps, in that regard. Lest I forget, they're all in competition when it comes to "musical worship" -- which can become idolatrous. That's why we discuss that subject matter (musical worship) quite frequently here because there are certain "churches of Christ" (congregations, i.e.) that have transformed into that "worship" format which is an unknown commodity in the NT church of the first century.

There's much to say about specifics. But time does not allow me at this point. One thing, though: I disagree that the Lord's Supper should consist of serving steak, fries and drinks. The scripture is clear about its significance: it's not even about the resurrection of Christ; it is simply commemorating the Lord's sacrifice and death of Christ on the cross, the shedding of his blood.

If all churches are all denominations, the question would be then: Which one is closest to the gospel and teachings of Christ and the apostles? My experience tells me that having come from "denominationalism," I consider the teachings in the church of Christ (the one that many have come to label as the "Church of Christ" denomination) as closer to the truth than any of the other religious groups around.

It would be unfair to label the church as a denomination or being legalistic because of its emphasis on "we speak where the Bible speaks..." and other New Testament principles. There are still many of its members who teach and practice "love of God" and "love of neighbor" -- and who are not hypocrites.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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