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Jesse Tubbs
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Rubel is in the "Twilight Zone"

April 29 2005, 11:53 AM 

Jimmy, you have discovered the Rubel Shelly that slipped off into the "TWILIGHT ZONE". Rod Sterling would be proud of your discovery.

Surely this cannot be the same Rubel of the Woodmont church! No, I heard the old Rubel of whom you speak and he didn't sound at all like the one I read about in 2005. Can it be that the same man would preach two different messages that are so opposed to one another?

I think I am begining to believe in the "BODY SNATCHERS". Does that make me a coo coo bird, ready to take my room down at the "nervous" hospital?

Goodness, I hope not!

Jesse Tubbs

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Jimmy Wren
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Rubel Shelly/Dallas Willard: Philosophers and Scriptures.

April 30 2005, 1:02 AM 

The following was taken from CHRISTIAN ETHICS TODAY (Baylor, Waco, TX) . Dallas Willard gave this lecture at SMU a few miles from my home here in Fort Worth, TX.

We have given space to print some of Rubel’s works on this thread. We now give space to Dallas Willard. The following are some of his “great” remarks dealing with “truth”. Dallas says it in this lecture very well. I would hope that as you read his remarks you would try to apply his principles to Bible truths and people who hold those truths as to people who “believe” but do not know “truth”. He gets a “thumbs up” for this one.

Bear in mind that He, like Rubel will say one thing “here” and another thing “there”. I would like for you to notice that he, like Rubel in the article “Did Christ Establish One or Many Churches”, do not believe that all who claim to know the truth actually know it! Note: words printed in uppercase are my doing.

Doctor Willard:

An idea or statement or belief is true if what it is about is as it is presented. That's simple isn't it? You know how to work with it. Someone says, "The broom is in the closet." You know how to find out whether or not that statement is true, don't you? You go look at the broom in the closet. There are various ways truth shows up, sometimes not as directly as with the broom. If someone says, "There's gas in your tank," and then your car sputters to a halt and your gauge goes down, you don't have to climb into the tank; you know you're out of gas.

Truth is the same everywhere it shows up. It's not always directly verifiable, but truth is always that MATCHING UP OF AN IDEA TO REALITY. And we learn it from a very young age. We know what truth is. You ask a little child. If you make him a promise and don't keep it, they will instruct you on truth. They know what it is.

That "matching up" that occurs with truth is totally indifferent to what you may believe or I may believe. NO ONE HAS EVER YET MADE A BELIEF TRUE BY BELIEVING IT. Try it. Try making a belief true just by believing it or by having an attitude of some sort towards it.

Believe there's gas in your tank. It won't help. Get two other people to believe it with you. Start a political movement, the "gas in the tank movement." It won't help.

Of course you can put gas in your tank but you can't do that by believing it, by being favorably disposed to it. Or doing anything else in the way of mere belief.


Belief, of course, is relative. A proposition is believed only if someone believes it. But you can't "truth" a belief by believing it. YOU CAN'T MAKE A FACT EXIST JUST BY BELIEVING IT. It's important for us to understand these things. Truth is so important that we must not fail to understand that it is unyielding in the face of beliefs. A mass movement will not change truths.

It is not generally understood. And the idea that truth is somehow enigmatic and unrecognizable, along with the idea that somehow it's relative, is what pervades our culture today. This is a tragedy. Precisely because it encourages us not to try to find out the truth and especially the truth about the most important things in our lives.

We have a long tradition of political and religious tolerance in our country. It's true that perhaps it has not always been lived up to, but we have that tradition. But that idea of tolerance was based upon the idea that tolerance is good. It was based upon the idea that there is moral truth, that there is a right and wrong way to treat other people; and in the absence of that, tolerance itself is without foundation. The only basis of tolerance is truth.

Tolerance has suffered a great deal recently in our religious and political and educational areas. And tolerance, because truth has been pulled away from it, has slipped over into the idea that everything is equally right.

No longer is tolerance a matter of saying, "I disagree with you and I believe you're wrong, but I accept you and I extend to you the right to be wrong." That's not enough. WE'RE NOW IN A SITUATION WHERE EVERYONE MUST BE EQUALLY RIGHT, WHERE YOU CANNOT SAY THAT PEOPLE ARE WRONG AND STILL CLAIM TO LOVE THEM. We used to say humorously, "Love me, love my dog." Now we in effect say, and entirely without humor, "LOVE ME, LOVE MY OPINIONS—LOVE MY VIEWS." AND THIS IS HUMANLY DISASTROUS.

Imagine a group of people out in a forest, lost, and all of them have compasses but their compasses all point in different directions. Now can you imagine one saying to the other, "WELL, I'LL RESPECT YOUR COMPASS IF YOU'LL RESPECT MINE." That's not exactly going to get you out of the woods.

It is so important to realize that what we accept as the truth is going to determine our action and that THE FINDING OF THE TRUTH IS NOT JUST SORT OF A "NICE" THING. IT IS ESSENTIAL TO OUR LIVES. It is necessary for us to be able to become the kinds of persons we ought to be as well as for us to deal with our choices about family arrangements, political arrangements, technical issues.

I've noticed in my own circles that among the few people who very rarely speak well of relative truth are engineers, and I've come to suspect it is because they know the bridge is going to fall down or the rocket's going to blow up if you don't do it right. THERE'S A RIGHT AND WRONG WAY IN REALITY, AND THERE'S NO PLURALISM WITH REFERENCE TO IT.

Pluralism is a moral approach which we take to people that does not say everyone is equally right, but rather that says, "We respect you and we love you, based on the truth that you also are God's creation. You are an eternal being whom God has put in this world; and I will respect you and love you for that. Even if you are wrong."


Everyone here at CM attempts to teach and point out errors with regard to truth. We expose false doctrines and false teachers. We encourage truth. We love truth. We are open, loving, caring persons. We love both saved and lost.

We invite your comments. We appreciate the group from Vanderbilt that reads this board.

In Christian Love,


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Jimmy Wren
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Rubel, York, among the Willows

May 3 2005, 1:04 AM 

John York and Rubel shelly's "teaching from the Willows."

In the next post I will be referring to the latest sermon posted at their website. “Nothing Held Back! (Romans 5:9-11)" May 1, 2005. I had intended to comment with this post but that sermon has so much Biblically incorrect material in it that I thought it might be best to explain where Rubel and John are getting some of their sermon material from.

This time we cannot blame Dr. Dallas Willard. In fact, from my study, I find Dr. Dallas to be "closer" than Rubel. Both use scripture as "seasoning", and not the meal. I perfer to have scripture for the "meal" and all of the "good little" stories for "seasoning". But these two fellows seem to wish to impress their audience with their great wisdom, thus the scriptures take a back seat.

Some of our readers may not be aware that Rubel’s church joined a large denomination recently. Rubel’s church has to pay money to belong to this denomination. Rubel’s church has to agree with this denominations “creed” of faith.

Rubel and his church of "Biblically enlightened" shepherds receives from this denominational headquarters:

1.)Defining Moments Leadership Tape Series – This popular monthly audio journal series is for leaders who want to build prevailing churches. For 60 minutes every month, listen as Defining Moments hosts ask Bill Hybels...

2.)The Connection Point electronic discussion boards are a place where church leaders and ministry workers are able to network and exchange best practices and proven ideas with each other.

3.)WCA Conference Discounts – The WCA hosts a wide variety of world-class, training events each year. WCA Member Churches receive substantial discounts on all WCA conference and workshop registration fees. Discounts apply to every person attending from a WCA Member Church and additional discounts are extended to teams of five or more.

4.)Willow Creek Resources® Discounts – WCA Members receive special discounted prices on all Willow Creek Resources®. These include: books by award winning authors like Lee Strobel, Bill Hybels, and John Ortberg; small-group studies based on relevant life issues designed for seeker and believer groups; Willow Creek Community Church message tapes and CDs...

5.)Web-based Ministry Tools – The WCA has been hard at work creating Web-based, ministry tools to help your church accomplish its mission of becoming a prevailing church...

6.)WillowCharts – A tool created for musicians by musicians to provide you with more than just lead sheets!

7.)WillowDrama - A collection of dramas to complement a message or illustrate a worship theme. Gathered together in one easy location to give you access to Willow Creek's newest online…

8.)Service Builder – A special tool for pastors, service programming staff, and other leaders who need to create dynamic, effective services for their churches or ministries. You choose: the topics…

9.)WillowVideo - Instant access to more than 50 new multimedia packages that can serve to enhance your existing programming elements. Best of all, copyrights are all pre-approved! Produce…

10.)The Exchange, is the WCA’s classified ad Web posting service, designed to connect churches and prospective staff members together. WCA Member’s receive a 20 percent…

11.)Promiseland Online – The Promiseland curriculum is based on Willow Creek Community Church’s vibrant children’s ministry. Online support for users of the Promiseland curriculum is available through this interactive Web site. The site features easy…

12.)The Net – Online Training and Resources for Student Ministries - WCA Members can now access The NET for only $99 a value of over $500! This online training and resource…

13.)Good $ense – Designed to help churches raise the value of biblical stewardship in their churches. The Good $ense team has put together tools and insight to help churches reach their goal of empowering local church leaders to build year-round, biblically…

14.) And many more resources.

There is enough "stuff" that comes with your paid membership to brain wash even the best of us.

Does any of the about remind you of any of the ministries that we read of in the Bible? Does it remind you of Paul's Ministry? John's ministry?

Do you see any Bible studies in the list above? Out of all of the material above,do you think that you could find a book written by Guy N. Woods? J. W. McGarvey? Gus Nichols? Oh, yes! I am sure we could find some by Ruble or John, if not I am sure they could order them for you.

This is the denomination that Woodmont Hills belongs to now. Yes the church of Rubel, along with the "biblically clear" understanding shepherds not only read RICK WARREN's books but the Woodmont Hills church subscribes to Willow Creek to get the sermon tapes from the Willow Creek preacher, John Hybels.

Yes Woodmont Hills, church of Rubel, and Rubel, turned its back on Brother Elkins and Brother Warren and many others in the Church of Christ that loved him and now his church is a PAYING CHURCH MEMBER OF WILLOW CREEK COMMUNITY CHURCH ASSOCIATION. You can check this out for yourself by going to:


The resources that are come from Willow Creek are being studied by John York and Rubel. It is evidenced in their sermons. We will notice some of the “strange teachings” with our next post.

In Christian Love,


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Jimmy Wren
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"Nothing Held Back! (Romans 5:9-11)" May 1, 2005

May 6 2005, 3:05 AM 

In this post we are looking at the sermon “NOTHING HELD BACK!” by Rubel Shelly and John York. Just as his sermon title says, nothing is held back in this post either.

Rubel has some “strange” sermons. His “Fax of Life” is even worse! Consider May 2, 2005, “Take Your Stand.” Rubel tells of a woman who is upset by something a 10 year old girl, of a different race, said to her son! My advice to the woman would be to explain how life is to her child and then “get over it!” You are talking about kids. But Rubel says “God paid a visit to this woman as he talked to her!”

What an imagination for a grown man to have! Rubel says “God seemed to show up in the room.” What does that mean? Did God show up or not? Rubel says “God seemed to show up AND give the woman an idea of how to approach the issue…she left with a plan.” (since Rubel is talking to this woman, he may be referring to himself when he says “God seemed to show up in the room.”)

Rubel ends this Fax of Life by saying of God’s plan for the woman “I don’t know if it will work.” Rubel, Rubel, Rubel! God showed up and gave this woman a plan BUT Rubel has DOUBTS that it might work? I have doubts that God showed up, but this is Rubel’s story so we will let him tell it. But one must ask the question, “Does Rubel have more faith in Rubel then in God?” I mean if it had of been Rubel’s plan you know that it would have worked. But God may have not learned enough from Rubel yet to make things work for the better.

Rubel knows better when he tells this old wife’s tale. He is encouraged to do this by his shepherds. His shepherds CLAIM TO TALK TO GOD and since they learned that they can talk to God from Rubel, Rubel must also talk to God, even if only “seemingly.” I guess that one of these days I am going to come to Nashville to see if Rubel or one of his shepherds will introduce me to their God. I just want to see where these voices are coming from!

I read about a man who would take a straw and place it through a crack in the wall and whisper through it at nigh to a person sleeping on the other side. Next mornings when the sleeper would a waken he thought God had spoken unto him. I must admit that the sleeper had a far better reason to believe than Rubel.

The sermon that we are looking at is full of the same. In Rubel’s “Fax of Life” and in his sermon’s, Rubel fails to encourage one to study the Bible. I thought at first this was strange for a preacher. However after reviewing his outright denial of what the scriptures teach, I now understand why he does not encourage Bible study.

You would think that the sermon we are studying today would call for one to study and follow Jesus. But NO! This sermon ends with John York saying that “…God…is willing and eager to POUR out the life of that same Christ through us.”

John further says, “You believe Jesus died for you, you are challenged to believe that he is now alive for you. Alive in you…please don’t be timid about seeing yourself as someone whose mission this week is to carry the life-presence of Jesus everywhere you go to make it central to everything you do and all you are.”

John says “you are CHALLENGED to believe…” Jimmy asks, “How? How? How?”

How are we supposed to learn, John? Do you suppose we should study the Bible. With all fairness, John and Rubel does say “…not to miss Bible class” earlier in this sermon. I don’t suppose the fact that they take up a collection in their Bible classes has anything to do with it. But they only mention Bible study in connection with what takes place at “worship” and not at home or anywhere else. There is no encouragement for anyone to study their Bible to find answers to God or how to live a Godly life.

Rubel begins early in this lesson to try and equate “traditions” with the Word of God. Rubel says “Christians Not only do out of different traditions feel free to take or leave certain elements of those traditions but, far more fundamentally and significantly, we all are tempted to take what we like and ignore the rest from Scripture itself.”

Rubel loves to use the word “traditions.” By doing so he may remove anything from the Word of God that does not please him. Rubel says “hey, it is just a tradition.” Here, however, he seems to be saying that the “Christians” who pick and choose “traditions” are the same, although less fundamentally and significantly, as the Christians who take and ignore parts of scripture.

Remember Rubel’s sermon about “Women in the Early Church,” he said we all had it wrong. Our treatment of women was just following a “tradition” and that we need to get rid of that “tradition.” Rubel can “break” traditions but evidently “just plain old Christians” should not!

Rubel says “Most of us here this morning could get a passing score on our overt efforts to keep the Ten Commandments. But there are subtleties about having no other gods before us that we really don’t want to discuss…idolatrous interest in sports…”

Is Rubel comparing “having no other gods before you” as just “subtleties”. Rubel is comparing “sports” with “having no other gods before thee!” No one in their right mind could confuse “sports” and “God” but Rubel and John.

Study your Bible. The Apostle Paul talks about sports! The Apostle Paul talks about “running the good race.” The Apostle Paul talks about the “crowd of spectators.” Yet “sports” wasn’t a “god” to Paul. Only to Rubel and John, I guess.

Now Rubel mentions the word “apprenticeship.” I don’t know why Rubel finds it so hard to use Bible names. The correct name is “disciple.” And there is a difference.

A disciple is a “learner” of whom or what he may be pursuing. An “apprentice” is one who is learning to take his place as an “equal” to his “teacher.”

Have you ever worked on a union job? Many of those jobs have “journeymen”, these are the skilled craftsmen, ones that excels in their trade. Next they have the “apprentices”, these are the ones being taught the trade by the “journeyman”, after a period of time the “apprentices” mature in the trade and become equal in skill and pay and receive the recognition as a “journeyman.”

A disciple never becomes the “master”. There is not a Christian living that will ever become “Christ!”

Rubel know that. Rubel knows better. He thinks that you don’t know. He knows that you don’t study your Bible. He could not get away with the things that he says if just half of the people at Woodmont studied their Bibles.

<John>: “…you’d think that would call us to deeper devotion and more obedient lives. In fact, I’m sure it does! But maybe it would inspire us to go deeper in our faith commitment to realize that heaven is still aggressively pursuing us, empowering us, shielding us, helping us.”

<Jimmy> “A deeper…more obedient…deeper…faith.” Notice that there is no encouragement toward Bible study but somehow a Christian is to get “deeper this” and “deeper that”. Where does John get his “deeper” theory from? He did read a Bible passage but he misapplies it in this lesson.

Then John says “heaven is aggressively pursuing us…” Where does he get this wild idea from. The Bible mentions three heavens, reckon which one John is referring to. I wish John would explain how this “heaven”, which ever one it is, is pursuing us; and why it cannot “catch” us? Also who is running from this “heaven”. (John gets ridiculous, don’t he? And there is more from John!)

Let’s jump ahead a little. To more of John, “To be saved through his life is to experience an empowered form of human existence now. We have received reconciliation with God through Christ so that we can live Holy Spirit-empowered lives.”

<Jimmy> “Holy Spirit” empowered lives indeed? Both John and Rubel teach “Holy Spirit” empowered lives. What ever happened to just being a disciple of Christ or Christian as we are called by the Holy Spirit in His Word? The Bible does not teach that the Holy Spirit “empowers” our lives. But Rubel and John teach it. Neither of these men, in their sermons, encourages people to study the Bible. Both men think, and teach, that God or His Spirit will guide and direct you. Remember Rubel’s “Fax of Life” that we began with? It “seemed” God entered the room! Well now we have “heaven” chasing us, and the Holy Spirit is empowering us!

We will put down a peg here. My next post will have to do with how the Christian is to be lead by the Spirit and then we will pick up the sermon again.

In the meantime study the Bible.

In Christian Love,


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Jimmy Wren
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Have you seen Rubel carrying any containers around?

May 9 2005, 1:02 AM 

John York: “He (God) is willing and eager to pour out the life of that same Christ through us.”

    “We can’t round up enough containers to hold everything God generously pours into our lives through the Holy Spirit.” (The Message, Romans 5:5)

    Eugene, Rubel and John are teaching PERSONAL EMPOWERMENT and UNBIBLICAL ENERGIES by their false teachings about the Holy Spirit.

    Rubel has read from The Message in several of his sermons. We give a little information about The Message.

    The Message is not a Bible, it is Eugene Peterson’s paraphrase of Scripture.

    This paraphrase was written by Eugene Peterson, now retired, who was for many years a James M. Houston Professor of Spiritual Theology at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia. He also served as founding pastor of Christ Our King Presbyterian Church in Bel Air, Maryland.

    The fact that he was professor of SPIRITUAL Theology should tell us something about his views but I was not prepared for what I have learned.

    You can do a google search and find an interview between Eugene Peterson and Michael Cusick in the Mars Hill Review that will give you some of his views. I would like to insert some of the interview here but copyright will not premit me to do so. I will give a few of his views from memory.

    Eugene requires his students to read poetry and novels . He says the reading of such books involves the use of one’s imagination and in the Christian life we are dealing with the invisible, thus one needs IMAGINATION TRAINING. Eugene continues by talking about Bible study.

    He asked the question, “Why spend so much time in Bible study?” He says Bible study has a separate life of its own. Eugene says “It is how we live; you only need to KNOW ENOUGH TO PAY ATTENTION TO GOD. Eugene says, “Bible study takes us out of our relationships.”

    Eugene does not explain what “relationships” he is referring to but one must assume he means a relationship with God or the Holy Spirit.

    Since Rubel does not encourage his audience to study the Bible and he uses Eugene’s book, The Message, we find another “like” thread of “Spirit led - minus the written Word ” persons. Rubel and Eugene are of like mind. Not Rubel and Garland Elkins, but Rubel and Eugene.

    I hope that Rubel does not encourage his listeners to study THE MESSAGE. I wish that Rubel would use a real Bible. With his education you would think he could at least understand the ASV. Rubel has used The Message in both of his last sermons posted.

    The Message is a TOOL for teaching one to become depend upon the Holy Spirit to the neglect of a study of the written Word of God. It is incorrect to believe that one can have the Holy Spirit without the written Word. It is also incorrect to believe that the written Word is the Holy Spirit. With these thought we now look at some biblical teachings of both Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

    The Holy Spirit and the written Word of God.

    The Holy Spirit was not given to the Apostles in fullness before Acts chapter two.

    “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts 2:4)

    “But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them…” (Acts 2:13)

    “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh…”
    (Acts 2:16-17)

    Peter, by the power of the Holy Spirit, preached the gospel; many accepted and were baptized and did receive the “gift” of the Holy Spirit.

    Did these Christians act as if they were “empowered” by the Spirit to give up “study?” Certainly not! Notice:

    “And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ DOCTRINE and fellowship…”

    Years go by and we still find Christians continuing in the Apostles doctrine. Do they have the Holy Spirit? Yes! Do they still need the Word? Yes!

    Notice what the Holy Spirit does for the apostles. “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth…” (John 16:13)

    This promise, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTHS, was made only to the apostles. The Holy Spirit guided the apostles and the apostles guided the Christians. The Christians CONTINUED STEADFASTLY IN THE APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE.

    If we are to be obedient children of the Father, we must continue in the apostle's doctrine. The Holy Spirit led and guided the apostles. If the Spirit was correct then, the Spirit is correct now. The Spirit led the early Christians to continue in the apostle's doctrine and the Spirit leads the Christian of today to continue in the apostle's doctrine

    Do not listen to men such as Rubel or Eugene when they discourage Bible study. Do not heed the false teachings of John York when he encourages you to let God “pour” out Christ through your life.

    Christians are to preach the Word, magnify both God and Christ by using that which the Holy Spirit gives unto us, namely the written Word of God.

    Christians are to be teachers. “And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.” (2 Timothy 2:2)

    What would you think if you pass a street person who is yelling at people as they go by, "Look at me, I have Christ in me. Can't you see that I am trying to show you Christ?"

    If you really believed that street person, you should stop and fellowship with him. But why should one believe the claims of such a person? He gives no proof! Yet, if he is holding a Bible and teaching from the Bible correctly, he has his proof.

    I know that many would say that you should not judge, meaning DO NOT CONCERN YOURSELF WITH SOMEONE WHO MAKES THE CLAIM TO BE SAVED. What if the man is wrong? Should we just go about our business and let the man be lost in the day of judgement? And where is the harm in asking the question "How came you to be a disciple?"


    "It is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect," (2 Tim. 3: 16.)

    A great scripture and comment that Ken used the other day, “Add to this, that Paul, though carried up even to the third heaven, ceased not to profit by the doctrine of the law and the prophets, while, in like manner, he exhorts Timothy, a teacher of singular excellence, to give attention to reading.” (1 Tim. 4: 13.)

    If anyone could have discouraged Bible study it could have been Paul. Paul’s instructions to Timothy are not to LET PEOPLE SEE CHRIST POURED OUT IN YOUR LIFE but rather give attention to reading and there are other Scriptures that include teaching and preaching.

    The Holy Spirit does not speak of himself. The Spirit has no doctrine of His own. The Holy Spirit can only speak the “TRUTHS” that have all ready been delivered unto the saints, “…the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” (Jude 1:3)

Friends, the Bible is the Book that takes man to his final destination. “He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” (John 5:24)

In Christian Love,


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Sue Lang
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The Message

May 9 2005, 7:57 PM 

Hi everyone,

I saw some reviews of "The Message" in publications. I ask our preacher what he though about it. He said he would not use or recommend it to anyone, not even a child. He was shocked when I told him that Rubel teaches from it. He said he would go to the web site and see for himself.

He also said that Rubel and Eugene may use the same book publisher and maybe they promote each others books. Just a thought.

One of the things that I remember noticing in the reviews of "The Message" was the comparison of Matthew 6:9. The KJV says: "…Hallowed be thy name." The Message says "…reveal yourself to us."

That thought, "reveal yourself to us," carries with it the idea that God is going to directly intervene in your life. That could account for Eugene's teachings against Bible study. It would also account for the "LACK" OF ENCOURAGEMENT by Rubel to get his listeners to engage in bible study.

And we must not forget Rubel's, Sergeant York, who teaches that God is going to "pour" out the life of Christ through you. God has not yet done such, but He wants too!

There we have it. No Bible study. A group of people waiting or already believing that they are the Christ in the flesh group just hoping that everyone will look at them and see them as Christ and will want to become like them.

I don't know who coined the phrase "I had rather see a sermon than hear one…" but it is unbiblical in the sense that it denies the work of the Holy Spirit as the teacher of Truth, at least by the ones who “don’t want to hear a sermon.” I know that the word is transforming us and we are being conformed to His image. But only through sharing and teaching the written Word of God will people know how we came to be Christians and how they to can find salvation in Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit is convicting the world of sin by the followers of Christ as they both preach and live the gospel as recorded in the written Word of God. "So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God…" (Romans 10:17)


Sue Lange

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Jimmy Wren
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Nothing Held Back! (Romans 5:9-11)" May 1, 2005

May 14 2005, 12:59 AM 

Nothing Held Back! Part 2

A closer look at the sermon preached by Rubel and John. (May 1, 2005)

Rubel reads from The Message;

Rubel: There’s more to come. We continue to shout our praise even when we’re hemmed in with troubles, because we know how troubles can develop passionate patience in us, and how that patience in turn forges the tempered steel of virtue, keeping us alert for whatever God will do next. In alert expectancy such as this, we’re never left feeling shortchanged. Quite the contrary – we can’t round up enough containers to hold everything God generously pours into our lives through the Holy Spirit (Rom. 5:1-5).

John York comments on the reading. “Do you hear the connection, particularly in that last phrase of Peterson’s translation, between the actions of Christ in the cross (past) and the ongoing work of God in the Spirit (present)?”

Jimmy: Notice that John calls The Message Peterson’s translation. We have noticed in earlier post that The Message is not a translation, it is a PARAPHRASE. John says “Do you hear the connection…?” Well, with a paraphrase you can write it any way you wish. To paraphrase is to take some text and rewrite the text to fit your way of “THINKING!”

Eugene Peterson is an “IMAGINATION TRAINING” ex professor of “SPIRITUAL Theology.” A serious student of the Bible will not be getting his knowledge from a paraphrase book! A serious elder will not be letting men do the preaching from a paraphrase book!

John continues: “We have received reconciliation with God through Christ so that we can live Holy Spirit-empowered lives.”

<Jimmy> If John is trying to say, that to be led by the Spirit means to follow the written Word of God, I could say, amen. But that is not what John means. John and Rubel both teach that the Holy Spirit of God is to guide the Christian into all truths, separate and apart from the written Word of God. They teach that the Holy Spirit will lead, guide and do all sorts of other things for you and to you!

Their sermons place more emphases on you being led by the Holy Spirit then by you studying the written Word of God.
Notice some scriptures from the Bible as pertaining to the Word:

“If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book,” (Deut. 28:58)

“Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do.” (Duet. 29:9)

“Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law. 47For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days…” (Deut. 32:46)

“And Joshua wrote these words in the book…” (Joshua 24:26)

“Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.” (Psalm 119:9)

“Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Psalm 119:11)

“Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.” (Psalm 119:105)

Jesus told his apostles that “whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.” (Matthew 10:14) We have the words of the apostles in the written books of the Bible. We are still “TO HEAR THEM.”

The early Christians “…continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine…” (Acts 2:42)

“The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;…” Romans 10:8)

“How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)”
(Ephesians 3:3)

We could continue to give scriptures from both the Old and New Testament that teach us to “read, study, understand, and continue in the WRITTEN WORD.” There are MANY SCRIPTURES that teach us to study the written word. There are also many scriptures that tell us of the importance of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit dwells in us, leads us, guides us and teaches us through the written Word of God.

The “change agents” over look teachings that encourage Bible study but continually teach about the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit as if the Apostles served no real purpose!

The “change agents” teach as if the Apostles only preached a sermon on the Day of Pentecost and later wrote a few letters of instructions which contained “traditions” that we need to get rid of! The “change agents” DO NOT PROMOTE CHRISTIAN LIVING ACCORDING TO THE APOSTLES DOCTRINE. The “change agents” teach a relationship to “Jesus in the flesh” leading and guiding you by His Spirit. See John’s statement above where he says, “WE CAN LIVE HOLY SPIRIT-EMPOWERED LIVES.” John mentions nothing about study, nothing about reading, nothing about asking questions.

John now goes off in a direction that only he can understand.

John says, “There are so many questions I have about the mystery of human existence in this tiny outpost in the universe called Earth. I have so many unanswered questions about my life at this moment in Nashville, Tennessee, in relation to all other people at this moment on this planet; in relation to people who have lived before me and those who will come after me.”

Jimmy comments: It seems as if John is doing what the “change agents” do best. Adding confusion to the sermon! The statements have nothing to do with the Word of God. They have nothing to do with salvations. All one can hope to produce by these kind of statements is to provoke one’s “IMAGINATION.” There is no “truths” presented in these statements; here one can only make use of Eugene’s “Imagination training.”

John continues with these two statements: “I know just enough about the stories in the Bible to be really dangerous…”

I know just enough about the world and times in which Scripture was produced to be even more dangerous!

Well, that’s what the “change agents” have to say in this sermon.

In Christian Love,


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Jimmy Wren
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Madison Marcher prints Max Lucado's article

May 10 2005, 12:59 AM 

Well, I guess it’s time to look at Max Lucado, one of the original change agents who helped to start the great exodus from the promised land (Church of Christ) to go back into the wilderness of wondering (denominationalism).

I really don’t wish to discuss Max at this point and time but the Church at Madison printed one of his articles that should be addressed here.

Actually the article by Max, a pastor for a large denominational church in San Antono, TX, is a very good article except for one thing, he does not point people to the Bible. He, like Rubel, Eugene, York, Dallas, and the biblical enlightened shepherds at Woodmont, mislead people into waiting and hoping that God will FIND them! They would have people to believe that God will at some point and time just POUR Christ into your life.

Max uses phrases like He (God) comes into our world. He (God) comes to do what you can’t.

The fact that the Madison Church printed an article by a DENOMINATIONAL PASTOR in their bulletin certainly brings reproach upon the leaders (elders) at Madison. There are many good sound gospel preachers in our brotherhood who have written excellent articles that could have been used.

Madison chooses Max. What does that tell us? Max was a speaker at the 1995 Christian Booksellers Association (CBA) Convention. Lucado gave a call to unity among Christians across denominational lines. Likening Christians to sailors on the same boat with "one captain" and "one destination," Lucado urged acceptance between Protestants and Catholics, Baptists, and Presbyterians. (Reported in the 12/95, Fundamentalist Digest.)

Here is the article as printed in the Madison Marcher. Cf. 05-04-05.

“The Lord hears good people when they cry out to him, and he saves them from all their troubles .The Lord is close to the broken hearted, and he saves those whose spirits have been crushed.” Psalms 34:17-18

“They are historical moments in which a real God met real pain so we could answer the question, “Where is God when I hurt?” How does God react to dashed hopes? Read the story of Jairus. How does the Father feel about those who are ill? Stand with him at the pool of Bethesda. Do you long for God to speak to your lonely heart? Then listen as he speaks to the Emmaus-bound disciples…

He’s not doing it just for them. He’s doing it for me. He’s doing it for you…The God who spoke still speaks. The God who came still comes. He comes into our world. He comes into your world. He comes to do what you can’t.” —Max Lucado

The problem with such an article is that one is left to use his IMAGINATION as to how God “speaks”; how God “comes” into our world; and how God comes “to do” what you can’t.

Credit Max with using a beautiful passage from Psalms and also referring to true teachings of the Bible with references to Jairus; the pool of Bethesda; His disciples on the road to Emmaus.

But, just where does one find these “stories?” Max said “Read the story…” but fails to give references as to where to find the story. If Max had quoted from Dallas he would have, at the least, given a foot note as to where one could find the article.

After Max says “read the story”, without telling you where to find it, he then says listen as God speaks to …disciples. Max continues by saying “what God did for these disciples, God is also doing it for Max, and God is doing it for you. DO YOU LONG FOR GOD TO SPEAK TO YOUR LONELY HEART?

One can make good use of Eugene’s IMAGINATION TRAINING here!

It could have been so simple if this denominational pastor would have given book, chapter, and verse. Max gets an A+ in imaginary preaching and a C in Biblical preaching, he did give a Psalms reference.

FYI: Max Lucado was Born 1955 and raised in Texas, he has served as senior minister at Oak Hills Church in San Antonio for 16 years. This interview is with Deborah Caldwell at:

<Deborah> You mention in your book that you’re an applause-aholic…Most people don’t want to admit that.

<Max> I don’t realize how addicted I am to it. I guess if I really understood how much God has given me second chances over and over and over, I THINK I’D EVEN BE 10 TIMES MORE GREAT.

Thankfully, as a grown-up I’ve not had any more trouble with drinking except once about four years ago, when I got in the habit of drinking a beer every day. And I think I am prone to be an alcoholic. I mean, I don’t have any trouble with people drinking a beer a day, but I can’t.

I start to need it. I started to look forward to it in the office. Here I am a PROMINENT PASTOR and then I can’t wait to go home and have a beer. What’s going on? And to me the turning point was when I was going to speak at a men’s retreat at my church and I had played golf that afternoon and it was a Friday afternoon. I stopped at a convenience store and I thought “I am going to get a beer” and then I thought, “No, somebody will see me.” I put it in a brown bag and I carried it out, snuck it out into the car, and I mean that old conviction just came back.

<Jimmy> I included this to show our readers that Max refers to himself as a PROMINENT PASTOR and also his GREATNESS. Did you catch it in his opening statement where he says if he really understood God’s giving him second chances over and over he thinks he could be 10 times more GREAT.

In Christian Love,


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Jimmy Wren
(no login)

Max, Max, Max

May 10 2005, 8:03 PM 

Boy! Am I behind on my reading!

To my surprise I just notice that the Madison Marcher uses Max Lucado as a regular contributor. We are only into the fifth month of the year and Max already has three article published in the Madison Marcher.

There must be some connection between this PROMINENT PASTOR and the elders at Madison. Maybe they remember how kind Max was to the “women” elders at Willow Creek when he preached there a little while back. Willow Creek had eight elders at the time and three of these elders were women.

What ever it is about Max, Madison elders must support him. Why else would they allow his articles to be run in the Marcher?

In Christian Love,


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Ken Sublett
(no login)


May 10 2005, 11:28 PM 

Jimmy bird, did I tell you that I was a prophet (no, not a Profit). Some people at Madison thought that I knew what was going on at Madison before they did. I had just written up the MARKS and it all came true.

I prophesied to my Mormon engineering employee that the president of the church would get a VISION to admit blacks as humans and then as members: it all came true. Blacks now have MONEY to TITHE.

Now, here is my PROPHECY: Your preacher creature is gonna write a BOOK and if he can get MAX to give it a forward pass why he can be as read as Rubel and other hangers ons.

If that prophecy fails then he wants to get on the LECTURE CIRCUIT of "prophets who steal words from one another." Preacher-creature these days means Master Minister or Superior Slave or PREACHER-PASTOR [starving feeder]. So, we gotta let the boy have his head because not EVERYONE knows the reasons Max is GREAT but not TEN TIMES AS GREAT as GREAT.

Get it? Ken

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Jimmy Joe
(no login)

Throwing stones

May 11 2005, 5:31 PM 


I have a question. Can you explain the difference between the Madison Marcher using writings by Max Lucado and this site promoting the writings of Paul Proctor a professed denominational Southern Baptist? Evidently the labels do
not matter as long as there is an agreement with the context.

Also, I sure miss the jousting between the regulars and Chuck Sonn. I really found it quite entertaining. Whoops bad choice of words.

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Jimmy Wren
(no login)

Throwing stones

May 11 2005, 6:47 PM 

<Jimmy Joe> I have a question. Can you explain the difference between the Madison Marcher using writings by Max Lucado and this site promoting the writings of Paul Proctor a professed denominational Southern Baptist?

<Jimmy Wren> Since you asked this question on one of my threads, I will answer you. I can only speak for myself and some of the other writers may wish to add their thoughts also. Maybe Paul will help us out.

    The Madison Marcher is both written and published by the Madison Church. It is a “calling card” for what that Church does, believes, engages in, promotes and practices. If not, why bother to print the thing? The Madison Church pays for this “calling card” out of their Church funds.

    Madison members keep informed with what’s going on at their church by reading the “calling card.”

    One cannot just submit an article to the Madison Church with hopes of it being printed. Someone must first approve the article or the article must come from an approved source.

    Donnie has written many good articles posted at this site. Could Donnie submit one of these articles and expect it to be printed in the Marcher? Yet Donnie has “kept the faith” while Max and Rubel are deep into “IMAGINATION TRAINING.” The Marcher does APPROVE articles before printing them.

    Now to this site. While this site promotes Christian Doctrine we do allow interaction by people of different persuasions. While we point out the “harm” being taught by Rubel, Max, the shepherds at Woodmont, and the shepherds at Madison, and others, we still allow for their input.

    There are times when we might use an article from an “unapproved” source but the article is “approved”, i.e., contains the truth, or we are using the article to point out the false teachings in it. Rubel and Max are both welcome to address an issue here at anytime. However I would hope that neither would be given a “forum” to promote their false teachings.

    As to Chuck Sonn I did not have anything to do with getting him “bounced.” Chuck seemed to reply to ever post! His replies all said basically the same thing. How much “scroll space” should you give to a person who writes the same thing over and over again?

Well I hope this answers some of your questions.

In Christian Love,


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Ken Sublett
(no login)

Rocking Rolls back to you.

May 11 2005, 7:08 PM 

The good people who sponsor this OPEN FORUM to discuss about any problem in any churched by any troubler are NOT a church.

It doesn't hold services, take up TITHES AND OFFERINGS, put on little boy shows as the CHILDREN who were the Chorus leaders trying to disqualify Christ.

It doesn't pretend to PERFORM worship for you. It doesn't build temples and then take them away from their owners. It doesn't send weeping widows out into the cold looking for another FAMILY group to love them like she loved the children who are MASS DISCORDERS and "can't worry about the grey hairs."

They permit me to post information by Machiavelly used by Shelly to pacify the change agent BAND about how SLOW change may come. Machiavelli said that you can invade and rule as a Prince only by "prayer or force and prayer rarely works." I post some stuff by Hitler to show people the parallel betwee Hitler's HUMAN MATERIAL and Willow Creek's COMPLIMENTARIANS. The methods of hostile takeover are quite identical. They let me quote the Catholic encyclopedia to prove our case AGAINST music and candles as being "common to all pagan cults." The Jewish encyclopedia tells us that what we call SINGING would be seen by those in the Biblical times as "screeching and howling" and so they do to me. Chuck will hug you or punch you and that is why there is respect for MASCULINE virtues.

They let me post ME which others think is ranting and raving. And, heavens help us THEY LET YOU hit anyone in sight as long as you don't kick in the tender places. If YOU try that at YOUR church they will, as they say locally, "Sat you on the back pews."

So, THEY provide a forum for YOU to denounce any thing YOU wish to rant off the top of your head OR even teach us some Biblical or historical reasons for the hope that lies in anyone who lies about how GOD is telling them to steal the church houses of widows.

Isn't TRUE liberty liberating?

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Hal Jensen
(no login)

Madison Church Response

January 26 2015, 9:21 PM 

If Dallas Willard claims God is speaking to him, maybe you should learn from how to get close to God yourself. On what basis is your walk with God. How shallow and childish of you. Who made you his critic.

 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Madison Church Response

January 26 2015, 9:51 PM 

When He was glorified Jesus was given the evangelistic role as the HOLY SPIRIT (1 John 2). He promised to guide the APOSTLES into all truth. Peter said that Jesus had certified the prophets who spoke by the Spirit (breath) of Christ and said that no one can private interpret or further expound. He left us a memory to MARK those who do not teach that which has been taught.

Jesus as Spirit told Peter that he must SEE and HEAR the risen Jesus to qualify for being guided into all truth: He said I WILL APPEAR TO YOU. Claiming supernatural power is psychological violence so you tithe and offer when there is no such LAW and therefore no DOLE for anyone seeking a ROLE beyond GOING, suffering and dying.

Paul said that he didn't corrupt the Word which means selling learning at retail which is also adultery. The Word is the LOGOS and it is OPPOSITE to rhetoric, singing, playing instruments, acting, dancing and anything which comes out of the human imagination. The LOGOS is defined as the Regulative Principle which all of the discorders deny.

God said that "the imagination of man is only evil continually." that is why the pattern from the wilderness onward was to REST, Read and rehearse or memorize the WORD of God. Anything beyond being a School of the Word without additions or subtractions including "private opinions or experiences.

Christ the Spirit in Isaiah 4 that those who do not speak the SCRIPTURES THERE IS NO TRUTH IN THEM.

Jesus said that God HIDES from the wise or sophists: rhetoricians, singers, instrument players.

Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: in the Ezekiel 33 pattern Christ named performance preachers for HIRE, singers and instrument players.

In Revelation 17 John warned about the rise of the Babylon Mother of harlots" (lectio-divina, spiritual formation). She uses the emasculated Paul called dogs and John calls "lusted after fruits" (same as in Amos 8). They are ANY craftsman or religious operative, speakers, singers, instrument players and even "grinders" or prostitutes marked by the millstone's whistling or piping sound. John said that they are sorcerers who HAD deceived the whole world; the word identifies the original Babylon Holy Whore who subjected all men. John says they WILL BE CAST ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.. Christ laid down the prophetic type in Isaiah 30: the sounds in sight and sound of God driving His enemies into "hell" will be wind, string and percussion instruments. These are the instruments which Lucifer which Christ called "the singing and harp-playing prostitute in the garden of Eden."

I didn't make up any of this. People claim "a" spirit told them to sow massive discord by forcing INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE: it turns out that the only personifed SPIRIT is Abaddon or Apollyon who has resurfaced as the leader of the LOCUSTS. From classics 101 we understand that these are the MUSES or GRACES Abaddon used as his "worship team" at Delphi, Corinth and other places.

When someone claims to understand beyond the sacred pages do not drink their KoolAid because STRONG DELUSIONS are marked by LYING WONDERS: These are religious observations to which the kingdom does not come. They include all of the hypocratic arts and crafts: rhetoric, singing, playing instrumengs, juggling or maybe DEBATING with three empty chairs.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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