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Rubel Shelly/Dallas Willard: Philosophers and Scriptures.

April 25 2005 at 1:14 AM
Jimmy Wren  (no login)
from IP address

We have looked at several of Rubel’s sermons after which he has quoted or referenced Dallas Willard’s work. There are thoughts in Rubel’s sermons that can also be found in the works of Dallas Willard.

Several years ago Rubel preached a lesson on “The Sermon on the Mount.” A short time later Steve Flatt memorized and presented the same lesson to Madison. If you look at Dallas Willard’s works you can find some similarities of it there also.

It appears that Rubel is a close student of the works of Dallas Willard. Since these similarities exist we thought that in this thread we might do a little comparing of Rubel and Dallas both personally and doctrinally.

I will begin by warning you that sometimes Dallas is for this, other times he is against it. I have posted a partial interview with Dallas Willard on another thread in which he seems to be warning against entertainment in the church. Yet in another interview he is suggestion showing movies at church. So make of this what you will.

Let’s begin by seeing who Dallas Willard is. These are excerpts from an interview by Hope McPherson.

Q: Given that philosophy, do you see the secular university, the University of Southern California, as a good place to be?

Dallas Willard: Well, I think it is. I'm not here by my good sense because, truthfully, I was pastoring a church and teaching school when I became so convinced of my ignorance about God and the soul that I thought I was a public hazard. That's when I went to graduate school at the University of Wisconsin. I didn't intend to become a philosophy professor or any kind of professor. I thought I would study a few years and then return to the pastorate. But I seemed to be led onward and I did finish the degree. I hadn't even intended to do a degree -- just study for my own benefit.

After I finished my Ph.D., they invited me to stay on the following year as a member of the faculty. During that year, the Lord said to me that if I stay in the church, I will be limited to the church and the university would be closed to me. If I went into the university, on the other hand, the churches would be open to me.

Jimmy comments: Notice that in this interview the Doctor says right up front “…the Lord said to me…” The man claims a direct contact to the Lord.

Like Rubel and the “change agents” they hear things that have not be said. They see things that are not there. And they read things that have not been written. And all of this is okay because the “Lord” speaks to them.

Now let’s look at Rubel. “Yes, there are a couple of stirrings…One is to be very directly involved in the training of young men and women for ministry…I was not prepared for the thing I wound up doing for all my adult life…Christian colleges and seminaries are doing a good job in most cases…there is a great need for some people who have invested our lives in local churches to be involved in training would-be ministers in the real-life, practical, and hands-on side of what to expect. And the second is to participate in planting a new church somewhere - starting from scratch and working off a blank sheet of paper.

Dallas Willard says by staying at the University churches would be open to him. Now Rubel laments that he was not prepared for the things that he had been doing all of his adult life and so he wants to start training “young” men and women for ministry and next he wants to help plant a church – starting from scratch.

Sound as if Rubel would like to be Dallas, don’t it? You must admit that both men want to be bigger then the “church”. Both men want to influence “young” men and women in the church. Also keep in mind that the Lord spoke to Dallas. Now let’s see if the Lord spoke to Rubel.

Dan Dozier, On behalf of the shepherds… we announced that we would spend January being still and listening for the voice of God. We had no idea God might say to some of us things that the rest of us did not want to hear… It was clear to us that God had spoken and that it was not appropriate for us to try again to steer Rubel away from God's leading.

Shelly said it like this, “Doing something to which I believe God is calling.”

Similarities of the two men in this post:

Both men claim to be God called.

Both men want to be bigger then the church.

Both men want to train “young” men and women.

Neither man was prepared for the local work of preaching.

Both are Philosophers; Rubel hold doctorate in philosophy from Vanderbilt.

In Christian Love,


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Shelly/Willard Spiritual Views

April 25 2005, 11:17 AM 

Jimmy, you are so right about the similarities. We get some idea of the views of Dallas Willard in an interview article entitled “Rethinking Evangelism” in the Winter, 2001 issue of Cutting Edge magazine. (Cutting Edge is a Church Planting quarterly newsletter produced by the National Church Planting Task force of Vineyard USA.)

<Willard> “Pluralism and other Faiths
The church has always sought to control who's "in" and who's "out." It has tried to hold a monopoly on salvation. But in my view that judgment does not belong to the church at all.

I personally believe there are going to be people outside the mainstream church in heaven, but they won't be there for that reason. There are going to be a lot of Baptists not in heaven, and they won't not be there because they are Baptists. It will be because they have learned to love and honor and trust Jesus Christ. It's possible to learn to do that in a very misguided organization, and it's possible to not do that in a very correct organization. God looks on the heart.”

<Joel> Yes, Willard’s views dovetail very nicely with Shelly’s views on "The Community" in his sermon on 7/21/02, an excerpt of which I had previously posted on the "Change Agent Rubel Shelly and the early church thread". I will repost a pertinent portion here for the ease of comparison.

<Shelly> “This sort of thing – identifying a single event or ceremony as the badge of Christian identity and spiritual kinship(speaking here of different forms of baptism or nonbaptism) – is fully consistent with modernity. It provides a formula for including some and excluding others. It draws a clear line between those deemed worthy of acceptance and those to be left out of the community. I’m not at all sure this is how things worked in the earliest days of the church."

<Joel> As you can see, Willard and Shelly share the common ecumenical belief that all religious organizations believing in Jesus Christ, including any denomination (or as Willard puts it, even MISGUIDED organizations,) and the Lord's Church, is as good as another, as long the member loves, honors, and trusts Jesus Christ. We're all just part of one big Community; the practices and beliefs of the various denominations and the Lord's Church comprising the Community matter not.

While God does look at the heart, Christ has commanded us to keep his commandments and thereby show our love for Him (John 14:15) Keeping his commandments is how one shows his love for Christ. Obeying this command is not possible when you are a member of a body which does not keep his commandments (a.k.a. MISGUIDED organizations).

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Re: Shelly/Willard Spiritual Views

April 25 2005, 1:53 PM 

It seems to me your time would be better spent proclaimimg the Gospel of Jesus Christ, instead of trying to tear down others. Jimmy, do you know God? His love for you may surprise you. I will pray that you come to know the author of your Bible.

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Jimmy Wren
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Re: Shelly/Willard Spiritual Views

April 25 2005, 5:34 PM 

Dear PMW.

Thank you for taking both the time to read and reply to our post. I thank God for people such as you who care enough to share your concerns.

I do wish that you would not hide in darkness as to your identity but come in light by revealing who you are. After all, if you are a child of light you should not hide the light under a bushel. If your goal is to bring light to those who read this board, then let your light shine. A child of God should never live in fear even when posting replies on a publicly read board. I promise that you will have nothing to fear from anyone here.

Your first comment: “…time would be better spent proclaiming the Gospel…instead of…tear down other.”

<Jimmy> The Gospel according to John takes up one book. John wrote four other books. Have you read first, second and third John? Are these three books accounts of the Gospel? Should John have written only one Book, i.e., the Gospel? It is not for us to say. God inspired John to write all that he wrote. Are you disappointed in John’s writing?

Pmw’s second comment: Jimmy, do you know God?

<Jimmy> Yes, I know the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. How do I know Him? The Bible tells me about Him.

Has God ever spoken unto me? No. There are a lot of people who have made the claim that God has spoken to them. Joseph Smith, Dallas Willard, the shepherds at Woodmont and many others make this claim. Do you make that claim also, pmw?

The scriptures say, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,” Heb. 1:1-2 (KJV).

Do you believe the Bible or man?

Pmw’s comments: “His love for you may surprise you.”

<Jimmy> Yes! God’s love for us does surprise me! The love of God is FOUND IN CHRIST JESUS, “Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:39 (KJV) AND WHOSOEVER KEEPS HIS WORD, “But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected:.. 1John 2:5 (KJV).

Pmw says: “I will pray for you.”

<Jimmy> Thanks for you prayers. It is wonderful to know that someone that I do not even know is praying for me. I pray for many things and one of them is for the people who read these boards.

Now I have a question for you pmw. “Do you know God?” Tell us how you come to know God.

I offer an eight lesson Bible correspondence course if you would be interested in taken it. I know that you have a love for God or you would not be reading and replying to these posts. I also believe that you have a love for mankind because your post is a “kindly” worded post. But I am not sure how much Bible knowledge you have.

Hey, a Bible study would be great! Click my name and send me an e-mail. We can pray and study the Bible together.

Oh yes, There is no charge for the lessons and please do not send a donation. It will not be accepted. I include this information because I have had one student ask me how much does it cost.

As Ken would say "GIVE YOU MONEY TO THE WIDOWS AND ORPHANS" the gospel is to be FREE.

In Christian Love,


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Jimmy Wren
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Rubel Shelly/Dallas Willard: Philosophers and Scriptures.

April 26 2005, 1:23 AM 

Joel thanks for such an excellent post. It is important to learn what “well” a preacher has been drinking from. Just as Rubel drank from the “well” of the “change agents” until he finally became one.

I believe that we may discover that drinking from the well of “philosophy” may be the reason for much of Rubel’s disbelief about certain parts of the Bible.

We began our study with a definition of the words philosophy and philosopher as taken from the Webster’s New Twentieth Century Dictionary Unabridged Second Edition.

Philosophy: 1.) originally, love of wisdom or knowledge. 2.) a study of the processes governing thought and conduct; theory of investigation of the principles of law that regulate the universe and underlie all knowledge and reality; included in the study are aesthetics, ethics, logic, metaphysics, etc.

Philosopher: 1.) a person who studies or is learned in philosophy. 2.) a person who lives and thinks according to a system of philosophy. 3.) a person who meets all events, whether favorable or unfavorable, with calmness and composure. 4.) an alchemist, magician, etc.

Among the Greeks the word was “philosophos”, from “philos” meaning “loving” and “sophos” meaning “wise”.

We have already noticed some similarities between Rubel and Dallas. Let it be understood that since both men are philosophers it is understandable that their train of thought and conclusions could be the same when both are addressing the same topic at the same time. When one such as Dallas has addressed the topic several years ago and Rubel has addressed it only recently and both have the same conclusions one has to wonder did Rubel reach his conclusion without any input from Dallas.

Do you not find it a little strange that both men begin their ministries only to later proclaim their inadequacies of preparations? And the fact that Dallas revealed his short comings years ago, but Rubel revealed his short comings only recently?

Dallas Willard said, “I was pastoring a church and teaching school when I became so convinced of my ignorance about God and the soul that I thought I was a public hazard.”

Rubel say, “…I was not prepared for the thing I wound up doing for all my adult life.”

I cannot speak to Dallas. But I want to say to Rubel, “Rubel, how can you say that you were not prepared to preach the gospel?” You had Brother Thomas B. Warren at you side. Rubel, you had Brother Garland Elkins to help you. You had such blessings just being in the presences of these two men, let along all of the others preachers that knew and loved you.

I can name some men who are doing great things in the kingdom of God who never had the opportunities or leaders that you have had around you.

Rubel turned his back on Brother Elkins and Brother Warren and looks around and finds someone with a hard luck story about pastoring, but one who is popular in the University, such as Dallas Willard and he compares his past life as a minister with the past life of Dallas.

Dallas Willard says in my pastoring (<Jimmy> I assume that to include preaching) I was convinced of my ignorance of God…
Rube says I was NOT prepared for the thing I wound up doing…all of my adult life…<Jimmy> I suppose that to mean preaching as well as everything else?

Well, these are the two “thinkers” that we are discussion and comparing on this thread.

Because of the length of scroll it takes to explain something to “thinkers” we are going to take the next three post (with comments in between them) to put forth a logical argument in the form of a modus ponens.

There are 4 common argument forms; modus ponens, modus tollens, hypothetical syllogism, and disjunctive syllogism. Arguments which have one of these forms will ALWAYS be valid, even though the statements in the argument may be false. Making a valid argument and arriving at truth ARE NOT one and the SAME!

We will be attempting to get this conclusion “therefore salvation is in Jesus Christ.” To get this conclusion our premises, both major and minor, will have to be true, at lest to the Bible believers. The philosopher will or may agree with the validity of the argument but he may chose not to accept the truthfulness of the conclusion or the truthfulness of either of the premises. Such is the sad state of the “philosopher”. The philosopher has to accept the formulas but DOES NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH.

To prove this conclusion what would we use for a major premise? Don’t be bashful write in and help us out. More then one could do the job, but I am looking for a Biblical one. We will be looking for the minor premise later.

An argument is, "a connected series of statements to establish a definite proposition."

Until our next post, check out the argument below.

In Christian Love,


The Argument Clinic

A reception desk in a sort of office building.
Receptionist: Yes, sir?

Man: I'd like to have an argument please.

Receptionist: Certainly, sir, have you been here before...?

Man: No, this is my first time.

Receptionist: I see. Do you want to have the full argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?

Man: Well, what would be the cost?

Receptionist: Yes, it's one pound for a five-minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.

Man: Well, I think it's probably best of I start with the one and see how it goes from there. OK?

Receptionist: Fine. I'll see who's free at the moment... Mr. Du-Bakey's free, but he's a little bit concilliatory... Yes, try Mr. Barnard -- Room 12.

Man: Thank you.

[...] The man knocks on the door.
Mr Vibrating:(from within) Come in.

The man enters the room. Mr Vibrating is sitting at a desk.

Man: Is this the right room for an argument?

Mr Vibrating: I've told you once.

Man: No you haven't.

Mr Vibrating: Yes I have.

Man: When?

Mr Vibrating: Just now!

Man: No you didn't.

Mr Vibrating: Yes I did!

Man: Didn't.

Mr Vibrating: Did.

Man: Didn't.

Mr Vibrating: I'm telling you I did!

Man: You did not!

Mr Vibrating: I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half-hour?

Man: Oh, just a five minute one.

Mr Vibrating: Fine. (makes a note of it; the man sits down) Thank you. Anyway I did.

Man: You most certainly did not.

Mr Vibrating: Now, let's get one thing quite clear... I most definitely told you!

Man: You did not.

Mr Vibrating: Yes I did.

Man: You did not.

Mr Vibrating: Yes I did.

Man: Didn't.

Mr Vibrating: Yes I did.

Man: Didn't.

Mr Vibrating: Yes I did!!

Man: Look this isn't an argument.

Mr Vibrating: Yes it is.

Man: No it isn't, it's just contradiction.

Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.

Man: Yes it is.

Mr Vibrating: It is not.

Man: It is. You just contradicted me.

Mr Vibrating: No I didn't.

Man: Ooh, you did!

Mr Vibrating: No, no, no, no, no.

Man: You did, just then.

Mr Vibrating: No, nonsense!

Man: Oh, look this is futile.

Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.

Man: I came here for a good argument.

Mr Vibrating: No you didn't, you came here for an argument.

Man: Well, an argument's not the same as contradiction.

Mr Vibrating: It can be.

Man: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a definite proposition.

Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.

Man: Yes it is. It isn't just contradiction.

Mr Vibrating: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.

Man: But it isn't just saying "No it isn't".

Mr Vibrating: Yes it is.

Man: No it isn't, an argument is an intellectual process... contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.

Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.

Man: Yes it is.

Mr Vibrating: Not at all.

Man: Now look!

Mr Vibrating:(pressing the bell on his desk) Thank you, good morning.

Man: What?

Mr Vibrating: That's it. Good morning.

Man: But I was just getting interested.

Mr Vibrating: Sorry the five minutes is up.

Man: That was never five minutes just now!

Mr Vibrating: I'm afraid it was.

Man: No it wasn't.

Mr Vibrating: I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.

Man: What!?

Mr Vibrating: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

Man: But that was never five minutes just now... oh come on!

(Vibrating looks round as though man was not there) This is ridiculous.
Mr Vibrating: I'm very sorry, but I told you I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.

Man: Oh. All right. (pays) There you are.

Mr Vibrating: Thank you.

Man: Well?

Mr Vibrating: Well what?

Man: That was never five minutes just now.

Mr Vibrating: I told you I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.

Man: I've just paid.

Mr Vibrating: No you didn't.

Man: I did! I did! I did!

Mr Vibrating: No you didn't.

Man: Look I don't want to argue about that.

Mr Vibrating: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay.

Man: Aha! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing... got you!

Mr Vibrating: No you haven't.

Man: Yes I have... if you're arguing I must have paid.

Mr Vibrating: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.

Man: I've had enough of this.

Mr Vibrating: No you haven't.

[From "Monty Python's Flying Circus: Just the Words, Volume 2",
episode 29.

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Rubel Shelly/Dallas Willard: Philosophers and Scriptures

April 26 2005, 11:36 AM 

Hi Jimmy

After you started this thread I began to read some of Dallas Willards works. Dallas has a lot of good things to say. The problem that I have is he says one thing in one place and then "appears" to contradict it in another place.

I know that philosophers often see no black or white. But if no black or white exist how can they expect to arrive at truth? And if they cannot arrive at truth, how can they teach us about God?

Rubel used the expression "blurred lines of distinctions" in one of his sermons where he referenced Dallas Willard. If Rubel views the Bible, or any part of the Bible, as "blurred lines of distinctions" should he even be teaching the Word of God?

Dallas is like Rubel in this aspect, one should not draw a conclusion from what Dallas has said or has written. One must wait and read what he will write or say tomorrow. Remember the comment made in the Rubel/Wes sermon? "…ask me tomorrow and I may have a different take on it."

You listed one example in the beginning of this thread pertaining to the church and entertainment. I went to the thread "What happened at Madison this week…" and read your post there that contained the comments of Dallas. It does "seem" that Dallas would be, at the least, discouraging entertainment in the church. I have not found his comments that seem to "uphold" entertainment in the church. Could you post them for us?

I have read where he says a person that does not even know Christ can go to heaven. Would you comment on that please.

In Christ,


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Jimmy Wren
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Dallas and Rubel. The Trail to link these two gets hotter.

April 26 2005, 7:59 PM 

Good post George. I will answer your questions with my next post. Thanks for you patience.

Dallas Willard writes the forward to Ruth Haley Barton’s latest book “Invitation to Solititude and Silence.”

We know who Dallas and Rubel are but who is Ruth Haley Barton? Ruth Haley Barton is the former associate director of spiritual formation at WILLOW CREEK COMMUNITY CHURCH. Barton is a spiritual director, teacher and retreat leader trained through the Shalem Institute for Spiritual Formation (Washington, D.C.) and the Pathways Center for Spiritual Leadership (Nashville, Tennessee). She is cofounder of The Transforming Center, a community of Christian men and women who shape and care for the souls of leaders--equipping them to guide their churches and organizations in becoming spiritually transforming communities that discern and do the will of God.

Her other work includes An Ordinary Day with Jesus: Experiencing the Reality of God in Your Everyday Life (a spiritual formation curriculumn coauthored with John Ortberg, WILLOW CREEK RESOURCES) and The Truths That Free Us: A Woman's Calling to Spiritual Transformation.

We have shown time and again that Rubel is a “change agent” now we have a connection of Dallas Willard to Ruth Barton who WAS an associate director of one of the ministries at WILLOW CREEK COMMUNITY CHURCH. This is a “home” base for the “CHANGE AGENTS.” Later we may show Rick Warrens involvement.

Let’s notice some more about Ruth. Ruth and John Ortberg put together a resource package and explained it this way:

ORDINARY DAY WITH JESUS KIT. In the routine moments of an ordinary can experience the reality of God's presence. Take the first steps toward that kind of life today. Here is a resource designed to show you how with John Ortberg, a teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois, and RUTH Haley Barton, a spiritual director, retreat leader, and teacher in the area of spiritual formation.

The practices and teaching detailed here can literally change your life, one day at a time. The curriculum guides and equips both leaders and participants in concrete ways to embrace the very real person of Jesus Christ in everyday life.

You'll learn how to INVITE CHRIST TO WORK ALONESIDE you; recognize and HEAR THE HOLY SPIRIT’S VOICE; use the spiritual pathways that best CONNECT YOU TO GOD; eliminate hurry and simplify your pace of life; wake up and go to sleep in Jesus' name; open everyday relationships to him, learning even from difficult people; spend soul-replenishing time alone with God; and plan, commit to, and actually experience an entire day with Jesus. The kit features eight sessions for use in a variety of formats:

<Jimmy> If any of the above claims were true, why must one BUY one of their KIT to experience it? the VERL REAL PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST? Hear the Holy Spirit’s voice? Connect to God?

I don’t want to get too side tracked from our subject. I just wanted to share this with you so you could see the involvement of Dallas Willard with a former Willow Creek employer so as to show that Dallas Willard does have some influence over the “change agent” movement. FYI, Ruth still holds seminars at Willow Creek.

In Christian Love,


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Jimmy Wren
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Dallas and Rubel.

April 27 2005, 1:44 AM 

Thanks for you patience George. I am back.

<George> If Rubel views the Bible, or any part of the Bible, as "blurred lines of distinctions" should he even be teaching the Word of God?

<Jimmy> Rubel teaches parts of the Bible and Rubel preaches “what” Rubel would like for the Bible to say. Rubel is a change agent. Rubel sees and reads things that are not in the Bible. We have shown you in past posts how that Rubel will read a word, ex. “deacon”, and immediately began to talk about “special servants or women.”

Rubel is one of the reasons for this web site. We have taken some of Rubel’s sermons and literally “picked” them apart to show you how he will exchange one word for another word with a different meaning. He will misquote or just say something that is not even related to his subject.

<George> I have not found his (Dallas Willard’s) comments that seem to "uphold" entertainment in the church. Could you post them for us?

<Jimmy> Here they are. Dallas was asked the question “How do we address the real needs of people?

<Dallas Willard> Use movies. Three come to mind immediately: Pleasantville, The Cider House Rules, and American Beauty. These are in-depth studies of the subtleness of evil, and people go to these movies and connect with them. Now that’s what we need to be talking about when we talk about sin.

For example, all three of these are roaringly antinomian movies. They are all against law. In The Cider House Rules, it’s almost ironic. Here you have a movie, the point of which is, "Rules are no good." But if certain rules had been followed, the terrible things that happened in the movie—incest and murder—would not have happened! When I saw that movie, I thought, "Could the guy who directed this possibly not have understood what he did?"

We should take a look at Friends or Seinfeld, or these other things that occupy people’s minds and talk about it, from the pulpit, in small groups, in our teaching.

<Jimmy> Notice that he says “from the pulpit.” He says “we need to be talking about when we talk about sin.”

When he says “from the pulpit” he has to be talking about “at church.”
The problem that I have with this is that he made both statements, i.e. one for it and one against it, in the same interview. One was close to the beginning and one was near the end of this interview.
<George> I have read where he says a person that does not even know Christ can go to heaven. Would you comment on that please?
<Jimmy> I am going to give you a couple of Dallas Willard’s quotes. I also remind you to re-read Joel’s post on this thread. He writes a good post.

<Dallas Willard> I’m not willing to be in a position of saying that one who has not heard of the historical Jesus cannot go to heaven.
<Jimmy> Is he saying “saved without obedience to the gospel?” Yes, but even more! Dallas is saying saved without even hearing the gospel.
<Dallas Willard> The implication of that is that a person can be almost totally good, but miss the message about Jesus, and be sent to hell. What kind of a God would do that? I am not going to stand in the way of anyone whom God wants to save. I am not going to say "he can't save them." I am happy for God to save anyone he wants in any way he can.

It is possible for someone who does not know Jesus to be saved. But anyone who is going to be saved is going to be saved by Jesus: "There is no other name given under heaven by which men can be saved."
<Jimmy> Dallas makes the gospel totally useless. Notice how he separates the gospel from Jesus? Dallas makes Jesus the savoir separate and apart from the gospel. What kind of “thinking” is that for a Doctor of “thinking?” The gospel according to Dallas Willard is just a waste of our time. You can see what Willard thinks about “preachers.” Maybe that is why he did not return to the Baptist pulpit.

Why would Dallas preach the gospel if he believes God saves people who neither hear nor obey the gospel? According to Dallas all who preach the gospel are just time wasters. There is no need to preach the gospel.

By the way, why would someone who is trained and schooled in “thinking” not be able to realize that there is no Baptist church in scripture? Maybe another comparison is found here between he and Rubel. Maybe they both see “things” that are not there.
One more quote from Dallas. I am including this one for Ken because it is about TEN.

<Dallas Willard> It is pathetic, for example, that you cannot get people to give a tithe. If the Christians in this country tithed, the church would be awash in money and there would not be a single legitimate social need that couldn’t be met, at least in financial terms.

Ministers would be directing the community because everyone would realize that they are the only ones who know what’s going on.
<Jimmy> Dallas is all for the TEN. Anyone who disagrees with him is PATHETIC.

Notice Dallas’s last comment. Here we have the “Community Preacher.” I wonder if he is including Rubel in that statement?

<Late addition>I just looked at Rubel’s last Lord’s Day sermon, April 24, 2005, and look at who Rubel quotes from, “To echo the words of DALLAS WILLARD, the bumper sticker “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” has become more of an excuse for negligence than a statement of humility for too many of us.”

In Christian Love,


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Re: Dallas and Rubel.

April 27 2005, 1:32 PM 

Is Rubel a church of Christ preacher? If yes, I thought coC congregations were seperate from each other. How is this your business? If he is not a coC, then how is his preaching any of your business?

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Jimmy Wren
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Re: Dallas and Rubel.

April 27 2005, 7:20 PM 

Wes it is good to hear from you even if you are using a fake ID.

Why not use your real name and computer. Why use the computers at Vanderbilt?

Why not just defend what Rubel preaches for truth instead of complaining about my comments?

Does he preach truth according to the written Word of God? If yes, tell us about it!

Did you, Wes, preach truth when you said "ask me tomorrow, I may have a different take on it."

Both of us could benifit greatly from a discussion of the "change agent" Rubel Shelly.

To answer your question "Is Rubel a Church of Christ preacher. NO!
He preaches for a Community named Woodmont Hills. There is no "Church of Christ" in that church's name.

You said "if not a coC, then how is it any of your business?"

Jimmy answers: Same as you. You may have a love for Rubel and do not like to see anyone expose him as a false teacher in public. Therfore you write me with the desire that I stop.

Well I have a love for the Lord and His Church and when I see someone trying to tear it down and pervert the teachings of the written Word of God I want them to stop, or change, and come back to the simple teachings of the truth. So I point out the errors in Rubel's sermons for all to see.

Some chose not to see it. So be it, but I must continue to defend TRUTH.

Now you may not be Wes. I just called you that, because you sent this post from Vanderbilt. So I assume that you know both Rubel and Wes.
If you believe that Ruble teaches truth, tell us about it!

In Christian Love,


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Re: Dallas and Rubel.

April 28 2005, 4:44 AM 


Actually, God calls on Christians to admonish each other (in front of the Church) regarding false teachings and sinful behavior. We are also to be on the lookout for false teachers.

So, are you asking the men on this forum to ignore God and his commandments (spoken through his Son and the Apostles)?

In the case of well known preachers (such as Rubel and Max) that are known to be representing the church of Christ, it is the DUTY of all Christians to speak openly about their false teachings. That Rubel and Max are teaching false doctrine is apparent by even new babes in Christ. That they are following their own agenda is without question.

So, instead of belittling the Christian men on this forum, you should be down on your knees thanking God that there are still Christians out there that follow God's Will and have the strength of love and commitment to stand up and point out the false teachers. Without Christians such as these, we may lose all knowledge of the Truth.

I thank them for their commitment to God and his Truth!

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Re: Dallas and Rubel.

April 28 2005, 8:41 AM 

You are correct. I do know Rubel and Wes. In fact I attend Woodmont Hills. However Wes has been back in Texas for sometime. God has used Woodmont to bring many of us back to Him. It is such a wonderful place. It is so sad to see people like yourself who only want to destroy good people because they disagree with you. You can use the line "they disagree with God" all you want. They don't, just your view of things. Again I say I will pray that you can find the peace that thousands of others have found once they leave pride and come to know the Father.

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Jimmy Wren
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Re: Dallas and Rubel.

April 28 2005, 9:29 AM 

Thanks for the reply pmw.

We are glad to know that people at Vanderbilt come to this site to read the truth.

Your comments are welcome at any of my threads. My only request is that you try your best to speak where the Bible speaks and not defend the person of Rubel or anyone else.

I use book, chapter and verse to show how wrong the "change agents", such as Ruble, are. I ASK YOU TO USE BOOK, CHAPTER, AND VERSE TO SHOW THAT RUBEL IS RIGHT IF YOU BELIEVE HIM TO BE.

OUR DEFENSE IS FOR THE GOSPEL. OUR CONTENDING IS FOR "THE" FAITH. While we wish harm to no one and have only love for Rubel and all other "change agents", i.e., a love that they may come to embrace the truth. We have a much greater love for our Lord and His Church and His Word.

I should warn you that my post are just beginning to heat up. It seems like MOST of the "philosophers" are connected to EITHER WILLOW CREEK or RICK WARREN at SADDLEBACK INCLUDING YOUR BUDDY DALLAS WILLARD.

Jimmy welcomes Vanderbilt truth seekers to the board of CM.

In Christian Love,


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Re: Dallas and Rubel.

April 28 2005, 12:41 PM 

This post will end my communication with you. Thanks for confirming what I have thought for 20 years. I will continue to pray for you and others on this site. God promised Satan would not prevail against His church. I believe that promise, and I can see the glorious things God is doing in His church through good men like Max and Rubel. Have a great day.

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Jimmy Wren
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Re: Dallas and Rubel.

April 28 2005, 2:49 PM 

Thanks for saying "good-bye"

Actually you said "end my communication" so I am hoping that you will continue to read and study these boards.

I would feel much better about you if you would find yourself a sound Church of Christ to attend. Get out of the "community" church that teaches everybody is all right. I know that at least one professor from Vanderbilt attends that same church but he like Rubel are leading you down the broad, not the narrow, path.

In Christian Love,


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Jimmy Wren
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modus ponens

May 2 2005, 1:08 AM 

Major Premise 1.)If Christ is the Son of God, it is Christ who gives salvation
Minor Premise 2.)Christ is the Son of God. Matthew 3:17
Conclusion: Therefore it is Christ who gives salvation

In our April 26 post we promised to put together a valid argument in the form of a modus ponens. This is the strongest argument one can make.

Simply put:
if A, then C.
Therefore C.

Bear in mind the things that we wrote in the April 26 post. We said that both premises could be FALSE and yet the argument is still VALID.

With philosophers they do not have to accept the truthfulness of neither premises, nor conclusion. But they must accept the validly of the argument.

At this point one may ask “what is the use?” Probably none with the philosopher. But in the realm of public debate one may do untold good to those that are observing the debate.

In Christian Love,


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Ken Sublett
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Body Count Does not Count!

April 28 2005, 1:08 PM 

One of the problems with EXCITING music and an EXCITING preacher is that history knows that they can DISABLE the rational or spiritual mind and pour false teaching into the emotional side. I hear you emoting and judging truth by BODY COUNT. I remember a church down the street which had to DOUBLE or or more their sheepfold to find room and feed for those who have BEEN REMOVED from your sheepfold.

I can PARSE one of Rubel's sermons and hear him DOING what he promises to do: to take liberties to construct HIS own narrative so YOU can put yourself in the role of Moses or Jesus. Rubel denies the inspiration of the Word. He claims that "work out your own salvation" means "work out your own SCRIPTURES for your CHANGED culture." Rubel claims in the Jesus Proposal that no individual has the right to read, interpret and speak any of the new revelation--through his and John's NEW GLASSES outside of the community which means COMMUNE.

At the same time people tell me that Rubel said NO SUCH THING. That is because you are not TESTING THE SPIRITS. Rubel and you have sowed more discord than anyone in church history. His POINTS of attack--music, women's role, baptism, the cursed PYRAMID ministry system God inflicted on Israel when they demanded a KING, and his summary dismissal of DEACONS who have a role in the church were PREACHER does not, inspiration, the validity of the epistles and more--are ANTI-Biblical and therefore I believe Anti-Christian.
    I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. Jer 23:25

    How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; Jer 23: 26

      Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams, which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal. Jer 23: 27

    The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell (celebrate) a dream; and he that hath my word (dabar), let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord. Jer 23: 28

    Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? Jer 23: 29

      Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. Jer 23: 30

    Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. Jer 23: 31

      Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell (celebrate) them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness (frivolity) ; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord. Jer 23:32

    And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden (singing) of the Lord? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the Lord. Jer 23: 33

      And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the Lord, I will even punish that man and his house. Jer 23: 34

    Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the Lord answered? and, What hath the Lord spoken? Jer 23: 35

    And the burden (song) of the Lord shall ye mention no more; for every mans word shall be his burden (song):

      for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the Lord of hosts our God. Jer 23: 36

    Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the Lord answered thee? and, What hath the Lord spoken? Jer 23: 37

Those who are FAITHFUL cannot be popular: they must GO OUT and they WILL be despised and rejected of men. Rubel writes all of that dry onion skin material on YOUR PAY: does he give YOU a cut.


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Jimmy Wren
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Rubel Shelly/Dallas Willard: Philosophers and Scriptures

April 29 2005, 9:11 AM 

<Jimmy> To all of our friends at Vanderbilt; we decided to use one of Rubel’s lessons to show the danger of his teachings. Rubel, alias the 180’er, will preach and teach one thing today and another tomorrow. Rubel’s teachings have changed more than once. If you study his teachings closely you will see how he has changed again just in the last four years.




    How often have you heard preachers exhort people to “get saved” and “join the church of your choice”? How many times have you heard someone express his opinion that “all the different denominations are just different roads to the same place”? These are among the most generally held notions in the religious world today. People honestly think that God approves the many religious faiths or our day, that He is pleased by the existence of so many different denominations and that He views all of them as alternate routes to heaven!

    Most people would be terribly shocked if anyone suggested that many sincere religious people are going to be lost eternally. They would likely cry, “Only God knows who is going to be saved or lost! You are judging and trying to play God when you suggest that you can know who is right and who is wrong in religions”.


    But is it the case that God alone knows who is going to be saved or lost? Not at all! The reason for His having revealed His will to men through the Bible is so that we too can know what constitutes a saved state before Him. He inspired the writing of Scripture for the purpose of enabling us to distinguish between truth and error, right and wrong, salvation and condemnation!

    The Word of God commands us to distinguish between truth and error. It requires us to support the one and oppose the other. “If any one cometh unto you, and bringeth not this teaching, receive him not into your house, and give him no greeting: for he that giveth him greeting partaketh in his evil works.” (2 John 10-1l). If it is beyond our power to distinguish between the true doctrine which saves and false doctrine which condemns how could this passage possibly have any meaning to us? The same inspired writer also said: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” (1 John 4:1). If this is not a clear requirement that men must examine, test or judge the doctrines taught by religious teachers, human language is unintelligible and meaningless!

    When Jesus said, “Judge not, that ye be not judged”, He was forbidding capricious judgments and petty faultfinding. He was not forbidding us to judge between truth and error. He himself judged certain Pharisees to be blind” and “full of hypocrisy and iniquity” (Malt. 23). How Satan has deceived men by confusing this matter in their minds. He has brought about a situation wherein men no longer value the truth and are willing to allow practically any sort of false doctrine to go unchallenged!

    Jesus gave the correct interpretation of this entire matter of judging when he said, “Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.” (John 7:24). Notice that he commands us to judge in this text! We are not to judge capriciously on the basis of outward appearance, e.g., that this man cannot be telling the truth because he is of a different race or because what he is saying is different from what I have always thought. But we must, on the other hand, judge ‘righteous judgment”. We must judge right and wrong based on the revelation of truth which is the Word of God!

    Viewed in the light of Bible teaching, the notion that one church is just as good as another and that the good people of all churches will be saved must be judged a false doctrine. Please notice what the Bible says on this matter and be willing to accept the Word of God!


    First, the New Testament teaches that Christ established only one church and desires for all men to be united in it. On that notable occasion when Peter confessed his faith in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the living God”, the Lord responded by saying, Upon this rock (i.e., the foundation fact that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God) I will build thy church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 1616-18). It s not without significance that he spoke of his church in the singular as opposed to the plural. There was no promise about churches and no indication that he wanted his kingdom divided up into warring sects. The evidence, in fact, is altogether to the contrary. Just before his death, Jesus prayed, ‘Neither for these only (i.e., the apostles) do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word (i.e., people converted by the gospel the apostles would preach); that they may all be one (John 17:20-21a).

    Second, the New Testament apostles and prophets recognized only one church. Paul explicitly stated, “There is only body (Eph. 4:4). That “body”, according to his own statement earlier in the same epistle, is the church. “And he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.” (Eph. 1:22-23). How many bodies or churches did Paul recognize? What was his inspired teaching on the matter? He said, “There is ONE body.” The ideal situation which Paul desired among men was “that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment” (1 Cor. 1:10).

    Third, the New Testament teaches that the saved are all added to the one church. There is no tract of the notion of “getting saved” by one process and then “joining the church” by another process in the Word of God. The same conditions which apply to salvation also apply to membership in the church.

    When Christ saves a man by his blood, he automatically adds that man to his church! How can we know this? For one thing, Scripture plainly declares that Christ is “the savior of the body” (Eph. 5:23). For another, Paul taught that redemption through the blood of Christ is available only in his body. “In whom (i.e., Christ and his spiritual body, the church) we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses according to the riches of his grace.” (Eph. 1:7; cf. Acts 4:12). Finally, the same acts of obedience which bring an individual into a saved state also put him into Christ. According to Peter’s statement on the day the church was established, baptism is necessary “unto the remission of your sins” (Acts 2:38). Yet baptism is also declared to be the act whereby one is granted entrance into the body of Christ. “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.” (Gal. 3:27). These facts constitute irrefutable proof that Christ has only one church and that all saved men are members of it.

    According to the latest tally, there are approximately 300 different religious bodies, or “churches”, in America. Yet, when viewed from Biblical perspective, we must say that there is actually only ONE church and that all the other so-called churches are nothing more than false churches and human denominations. Just as there are many alleged “gods” yet we know that there is really only ONE true God, so are there many alleged “churches.” Yet we know that there is really only ONE true church!


    Aside from the clear evidence already introduced from the New Testament, our own reasoning powers tell us that it is not possible for all 300 of today’s churches” to be right and approved of God. Suppose that one, man says the earth is round and the other says it is flat. Can both be right? Of course not, for two contradictory positions cannot both be right. Both may be wrong, but they cannot both be right! Suppose that one man denies the existence of God and the other affirms his existence. These are the only two possibilities about God’s existence. Either He exists or He does not! Thus one man is right in his position and the other is wrong, but both cannot be right!

    Let us now apply this same principle to the situation among religious bodies in America. One church teaches that children are born totally depraved in sin and another teaches they are born pure and sinless. Can both be right? One church says that baptism is essential unto salvation and another says it is nonessential. Can both be right? One church says that instrumental music in worship is acceptable unto God and another says it is unauthorized and sinful. Can both be right? Only an irrational or dishonest man would say that contradictory positions can both be true!

    Since Christ’s one church is “the pillar and ground of the truth” (1 Tim. 3:15), it is obvious that no church which teaches false doctrines can be his true church. Someone may object. Are you saying that your church is the only true church and that everybody who disagrees with you is wrong!” Not at all! I am saying that Christ’s one church revealed in the New Testament is the only true church and that everybody who disagrees with the Word of God is wrong.

    Truth and error in religion are not determined by human wisdom, but by divine wisdom revealed in the gospel (1 Cor. 1:21). Right and wrong are not determined by the number of people who subscribe to and practice a given doctrine. The Word of God and it alone can show what is right and wrong in religion. His word is truth (John 17:17) and is “profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness: that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16-17).


    The only reliable guide in religion is the Word of God. The prophet Jeremiah said, “0 Jehovah, I know that the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” (Jer. 10:23), He recognized, as all thinking men eventually must, that man is not able to guide himself in religion. We must be able to appeal to an authority higher than ourselves. Solomon pointed out the danger of man’s efforts to chart his own course in spiritual mlatters when he wrote: ‘There is a way which seemeth right unto a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death.” (Prov. 14:12). Not only does the Bible declare the folly of using human standards in religion, but human experience teaches the same thing. The present existence of nearly 300 different religious bodies is the direct result of departing from divine authority

    The all-sufficiency and alone-sufficiency of the Holy Scripture as our guide in religion is a fundamental teaching of Christianity. Christ gave the Holy Spirit to his apostles to guide them in speaking and writing his message as we now have it in the New Testament. (Cf. John 14:26). This message in its written form forms a fixed and objective standard for religious beliefs and practices.

    Men will never come together on the creeds, theories and speculations of men. But they can come together on the Bible as the common authority for united faith and action. Through a dedicated and diligent study of the Scripture, each man can learn the truth. Then it will no longer be a matter of one man’s belief over against that of someone else, but ‘the will of our Lord Jesus Christ”. Then it will no longer be a matter of one man’s church versus another’s, but the church of Christ. Thus is demonstrated the fact that our primary concern must be the study of the Word of God to determine the means by which we can be members of the one true church for which Christ died and of which he is the head and savior.

    Christ and his apostles taught that in order to be saved a man must hear the gospel of Christ and believe that he is the only begotten Son of God. Jesus said, “Except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” (John 8:24). On the basis of such a faith in Jesus Christ, one must then make the decision to make a once-for-all-time clean break with sin, to repent. “Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish,” said Jesus (Luke 13:3). He must then confess his faith in Jesus before men, for “with the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:10). And finally, in order to receive the remission of sins, one must be immersed in water. “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.” (Mark 16:16).

    When a man thus hears the gospel, believes it, repents of his sins, confesses Christ with his mouth and is baptized, he has done the things Christ and the apostles taught men to do in the first century in order to be saved. If we do the same things they did, will the results not be the same? Will we not receive the remission of our sins? (Cf. Acts 2:38). Will we not be added to the one church of which the New Testament speaks? (Cf. Acts 2:47). If not, why not?

    But someone asks, “Is it really that important that we be right in all these matters? What difference will it make if we are wrong about some things so long as we are sincere?” The difference between being right and wrong in religion is the difference between salvation and condemnation. Truth means purity, for it is only in one’s obedience to the truth that he can be born again. Peter wrote:
    “Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently: having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth. (1 Pet. 1:22-23).

    How had these people purified their souls? In their obedience to the truth. What was the result? They had been ‘begotten again” or born anew. On the other hand, error means condemnation! “And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thess. 2:11-12). If men prefer to believe lies instead of the truth, God will not stop them. He has made us free and has given us the power of choice. A man can use that freedom to choose error and do things sinful, but God will judge him for his deeds! There is likely no more widely circulated or generally believed lie today than the one which tells people that they can “join the church of your choice” and be confident that ‘so long as you are sincere in what you do God will accept your service”. Yes, all such sentiments to truth and men must be members of the one church about which they can read in the New Testament!


    Will the good people of all churches be saved? No. Only those people who have purified their souls in their obedience to the truth and have thereby been added to Christ’s one church possess the valid hope of eternal life!

    Does the real church of Christ exist on earth today or has a human denomination simply taken the name “Church of Christ” unto itself? Christ’s church--the New Testament church-- does indeed exist today. It is composed of all those people who have been saved in their obedience to the gospel of Christ. It is organized just as the church of Christ was organized in the first century. It wears the same name and worships in the same manner. It teaches the one faith and exhorts its members to live lives of purity and service to God and men. Why should you not become a member of that church by following the plan of salvation taught by God and his apostles?


<Jimmy> we will have more to say about this lesson from Rubel on a later post. But for the time I just want to echo Rubel’s words; “the New Testament church—does indeed exist today”. But as most of you can see, the church that Rubel described is not anything like the church that Rubel preaches for today! NOT A BIT!

The church that Rubel described is exactly like the Church that I am a member of! Praise God!

In Christian Love,


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1 church, 2 church, 3 church, four, 5 church, 6 church, Buddah and Moh...

April 29 2005, 11:51 AM 

<Rubel> "Only an irrational or dishonest man would say that contradictory positions can both be true!"

<George> One of the MANY sides of Rubel.

Rubel gives a true and honest lesson from the Bible about the New Testament Church of christ. I may say more on this later.

For the time I would like to point out Rubel's arrogant attitude.

In this lesson Rubel teaches that his church is the only church that is going to heaven. Every one else is LOST if you belong to another church.

Now notice what Rubel teaches. Everyone that holds the views that all belonging to any and every church that knows Christ will be saved and everyone that belongs to the New Testament Church of Christ as he presented in this lesson WILL be LOST.

It is the same "MEAN" old Rubel still trying to have his WAY of who will be "SAVED" and who will be "LOST".

Serving Him,


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Ken Lee
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One Coin: Two Sides

April 29 2005, 5:56 PM 

Max Rucado return with "spirits" from Brazil. Help Don Finto and Ruber Sherry and Steve Fratt impose Great Jubiree.

Pope's Jubiree for the Atonement: must go great meeting at Cathredal to be REDEEMED. Ken Lee help many superstitious find where atonement be poured out with great blowing of the Yobel from Jubal who handre musical instruments with out AUTHORITY. See Halal boys and girrs wave hands around four Asherah pores.

Max see Jesus as VIAL OF LIGHT which God somehow got past Lucifer whom he surmises MIGHT be saved. Sameo like Gnostic with ZOE holy mother, Beast and female instructing principle make little dumb jehovah make MUSICAL WORSHIP team to worship HER. The Ruber Sherry say think of S.O.N. God as S.U.N. god. So we gonna BAPTIZE Santa which name means Satan the giver of gifts.

He and John say that Mary was considered like CHEROKEE SAL who had a bastard son at Roaring Camp. Holy Chow Mein!

God MARKS INNOVATION to show BOTH sides at once. Star of David old Babylonian MARK of worship of STARS where STARS always performers.

Holy Egg Roll! Look at obverse side of SAME coin and see Siren-like Muse with lightning bolts to throw with Abaddon's MUSES which John HIDE as LOCUSTS: lull you to sleep in noon-day sun with music and then STING you with the kiss of death. Locusts link to aioding to EXCITE you to LIFT you up with pleasuring to CUT YOUR THROAT. The chain of words means to CARRY YOU AWAY for their own USES. This is the Greek HERESY. Paul say Jesus not do that (either Old Jesus or New Jesus) and commanded YOU not do that (Rom 15).

So, maybe always be sameo, sameo (Learn Japaneze real good) and NOT change?

Ken Lee.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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