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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.19.64.212

Re: “Madison Timeline # 10”—Continued

May 31 2006, 1:42 AM 

Anonymous: "The word could be better used in this sentence: This entire web site is crap!!!"

And from the sewer cometh the language of the sewer, the excrement of a lost soul.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
68.52.253.237

Re: “Madison Timeline # 10”—Continued

May 31 2006, 11:45 AM 

And ONLY condemnation from your part!!! Do you really think you will win lost souls with your attitude?

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.217.164.73

Re: “Madison Timeline # 10”—Continued

May 31 2006, 10:24 PM 

Anonymous: "Do you really think you will win lost souls with your attitude?"

Christians refrain from using the word "crap" or any other forms of vulgarity, no matter how much they dislike or disagree with someone. Lost souls despise the Word of God and use the word "crap" and other forms of vulgarity. Is your soul lost? If you say that you are a born-again Christian and yet still freely use crude, vulgar words like "crap," then something has gone quite wrong in your life. You manifest blind anger. I urge you to cast off the language of the sewer and the gutter, seek forgiveness and redemption from Christ, and find peace.

 
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Jimmy Joe
(no login)
68.52.127.150

Wrong term

June 1 2006, 12:32 AM 

B. You must realize that you are being chatised not for what you are posting but for using the wrong term. The word you should use is "dung". That is the acceptable word as it is used profusely by Saint Sublett in practially all of his post.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
68.52.253.237

Re: Wrong term

June 1 2006, 8:24 PM 

OK, I repent. This web site is a load of Dung!!! No matter what you call it, it stinks, and you boys only stir it, so it stinks more.

"Let he that is without sin cast the first stone"

I gather that some of you on this site think you "do no wrong" I get this feeling because everyone else is wrong and you are right. Just ask yourself!

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hello,

I was thinking it was the other way around—a commonality among those who continue to bash the church and claim to have “found” God’s abundant grace [“like never before”] and are, therefore, free to say and do as they please [calling it “freedom in Christ”] … not concerned about sinning [because God’s grace does “continue to abound”] … unwilling to abide by the doctrine of Christ and His apostles [because doctrine does not matter—“it’s all about relationship”]. Hello!?!

Caution: I would urge you to take your posts of such nature to an(other) website(s) that are not “a load of Dung!!!”

Thank you


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 65.1.221.199 on Jun 1, 2006 10:38 PM


 
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Anonymous
(no login)
68.52.253.237

Re: Wrong term

June 2 2006, 12:02 AM 

It's OK for you to beat up on anyone that does not conform to your way of thinking, But, when someone disagrees with you they are told to go away??????

BYE BYE

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.19.69.136

Re: Wrong term

June 2 2006, 12:10 PM 

Anonymous: “It's OK for you to beat up on anyone that does not conform to your way of thinking, But, when someone disagrees with you they are told to go away??????”

Actually, people have two options on this site:

Option 1: People have the option to post civil messages with Christian attitudes and without abusive language (insults, character assassinations, profanity/vulgarity).

Option 2. People have the option to go elsewhere if they don’t like Option 1.

It’s as simple as that.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.217.125.96

Re: “Madison Timeline # 10”—Continued

May 27 2006, 3:43 PM 

Until "Concerned Christian"overcomes his OWN cowardice and reveals his true identity, he has no grounds to accuse anyone else of cowardice. Mote and beam, my son, mote and beam. CC should seek professional help about anger management, because he is pathologically obsessed with running down this web site. But as long as he wastes his hours belittling and reviling this web site, which stands for absolute biblical TRUTH, he will NEVER find any peace.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
65.1.221.199

“Doctrine” Is Unimportant; a Teen “into Dancing”

June 3 2006, 3:04 PM 

I wonder if there is a “leadership battle” brewing between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and “Preaching Leader.” You see—what is known as the contemporary “worship service” can extend up to 90 minutes (much of which is devoted to “musical service” of up to 18 [including several silly-singy-clappy-rocky-charismatic “praise”] musical pieces.

And, of course, only about 20 minutes or less of a watered-down “gospel” sermon, including designed made-to-laugh stories and personal jokes.

Who do you think gets to look up above, “lifting up holy hands” (I Tim. 2:8), and proudly pray, “[Know this, in case You didn’t, that] we come to You to ‘worship’ You.”

Who gets to lead the “congregational applause” after a “joyful noise” from a Christian Rock Praise music or an upbeat, highly rhythmic “hymn” has been completed? Who do you think grabs the opportunity and honor to say, “… and the church says [Amen!!!]?

Is it the “Worship Leader” or the preaching servant? Go … figure. Hmmm!?!

By the way, this past Sunday, in the sermon titled, “Enni-Meanie-Minny-Moe,” there were 3 major points brought up: (a) Look for an encouraging church; (b Look for the church where people love each other; and (c) Look for a church that lifts up Jesus. Okay, good practical points—references used were from Col. 2:1-5; Eph. 4:29; Acts 4:12.

What’s troubling, though, was the statement made concerning the diminishing importance of the doctrine of Christ and the emphasis on relationships: “The basis for unity is not the church sign … not the doctrine nailed down …; it’s all about right relationships.”

Regarding the “church sign,” this has not been an issue among loyal church members who know that the church building is not the church, but that the church sign is only for public information. Can you imagine a building without a sign or a home or mailbox without the street number? You see, change advocates in the brotherhood make the “church sign” an issue because they’re trying to convince folks that “Community Church-ism” is the way to go—either being nameless or dropping the name “of Christ.”

What about the devaluation of the doctrine of Christ and His apostles?

    II John 1:9-10—“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed.”

    I Timothy 4—“[13] Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. … [16] Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.”

    II Timothy 4—“[2] Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. [3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.”


Relationship—is this all about “feelings”? Interestingly, I haven’t found in the entire Bible a single reference to the word “relation” or “relationship.” But take for granted that maybe there’s another word or words that define the word “relationship.” Could it be a matter of simply verbally affirming the expression, “Lord, please know that I love You and that I love my neighbor as myself”? My Bible tells me that “love” is not passive. But that love is an action that involves being a servant to our Master … that involves obeying God’s commandments. John 14:15; 15:10—“If ye love me, keep my commandments. … If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.”

Oh, about leadership—Phil’s introduction: “… Do you come here [for assembly] because of the preacher … Nah [with a grin] … or, do you come here because of the Worship Leader?” Hmmm!

Lest I forget [from where I was seated not far from where I usually sit in “my” balcony, and from a different angle], I saw a female teen doing the 360-degree spin dance at least twice while the “praise” music was being “joyfully” sung despite the word “mourning” in the verses of “This Is How We Overcome.” This is a 5/16 song—5 words repeated 16 times (or about that many times)—I’ve lost track of the number of times that “This is how we overcome” is repeated. Anyway, the spin dance [when it is performed] occurs while singing, “You have TURNED my mourning into DANCING.” Yeah, right, a good demonstration of “worship in spirit and in truth.”

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.217.125.138

Jesus and Relationships

June 3 2006, 3:29 PM 

In an issue of The Torch, a periodical published by Lipscomb University, there was once a similar article about Jesus and relationships. The Bible professor writing the article posed the premise that the principal reason for Christ's incarnation was not to die on the cross to redeem mankind from their sins, but to establish Himself as a liason to create better relationships between God and man.

So the social aspect of Christ now takes precedence over His ultimate, atoning sacrifice for our sins. Sins now take a back seat to relationships. And that's where the modern church of Christ is headed.

 
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B
(no login)
70.238.52.169

Re: Jesus and Relationships

June 3 2006, 10:03 PM 

I wonder if there is a “leadership battle” brewing between Madison’s “Worship Leader” and “Preaching Leader.” You see—what is known as the contemporary “worship service” can extend up to 90 minutes (much of which is devoted to “musical service” of up to 18 [including several silly-singy-clappy-rocky-charismatic “praise”] musical pieces.


Donnie,

You may have already covered this ground, but why do you continue to go to Madison. I'm not asking in the spirit that they could move forward without you. I'm coming more from the angle of, how can you continue to worship in a way that you think is not what God desires, when there are other congregations available to you that worship in ways that you do think God desires. Madison is obviously not going to move back to the pattern you think is right. Do you not feel that God demands of you to be somewhere that you can worship Him in the way He demands?

Please don't read too much into that. It's an honest question. I've been to a couple of worship services where I had to get up and leave, and I can't imagine feeling that way every Sunday.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
65.7.67.131

What a Joke!!!

June 3 2006, 10:38 PM 

Dr. Crump says:

"People have the option to post civil messages with Christian attitudes and without abusive language (insults, character assassinations, profanity/vulgarity)".


Yet in the very next post, Donnie Cruz (one of the moderators) violates that rule. However, he will say he is voicing the "truth" and the rest of us are "change agents" trying to corrupt his style (the only way) to worship. It would seem it's about 2000 to 1 against him. I actually believe Donnie has completely lost all sense of Chistianity, and only does this because he enjoys stirring the "dung"

You can call this post anything you wish. (insults, character assassinations, profanity/vulgarity)
IT IS ONLY MY OPINION!!!

VERY VERY SAD!!!

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
68.52.253.237

Re: What a joke!

June 4 2006, 10:39 PM 

Donnie,
I'm interested in your response to this post

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
65.1.221.199

A Christian Family That Has Left Madison

June 4 2006, 9:56 PM 

There has been a very important reminder posted this evening. It would take some time to locate this particular post above. So, I am reconstructing the scenario which prompted this poster to respond in such a manner as you will notice below.

As I have more often than not discussed issues related to Madison’s “Worship Leader” and his “Praise Team,” I thought at this point that it was time to have some discussion of issues surrounding the preaching of God’s Word in our postmodern culture. So, I began with the following subject. [Please note that I’m listing only certain responses that would directly point to this poster’s revealing message.]

_____________________________________

    DONNIE: Now It’s the “Senior Pulpit Minister’s” Turn (March 6 2006, 8:05 AM)

    . . . Well, it appears that Mr. Phil Barnes has spent time here [at this site] and has learned how serious the situation is when a congregation delves into and implements unnecessary and destructive changes that incite controversy and alienate half of its members. Let’s just turn it around instead—i.e., the Change Movement is the highly infectious spiritual disease.

      RESPONDENT: Re: Now It’s the “Senior Pulpit Minister’s” Turn (March 6 2006, 10:12 PM)

      ... if you don't like it, go somewhere else!

        DONNIE: Somewhere else? (March 6 2006, 11:53 PM)

        No! If you intrude, go somewhere else or start your own from scratch!

        Sorry, but I arrived first. The change agents ignored the signs: “OCCUPIED” and “NO VACANCY.” They also ignored other signs: “YOU WERE NOT INVITED” and “GO AWAY! ”

        Frankly, I believe you are “concerned” that your non-instrumental congregation is not changing as you wish it would. If that’s the case, go somewhere else where the inanimate musical instruments could participate in admonishing you and others, as well as in letting the word of Christ dwell in you richly.

          RESPONDENT: Re: Somewhere else? (March 7 2006, 1:22 PM)
          You were the first? You helped open the doors to Madison in 1934? You obviously are not 'fitting in" so why subject yourself to such turmoil? You are "Outnumbered" go somewhere else. ….

            NEW POSTER: why? i already left madison turmoil (no login) 172.165.134.63
            SUBJECT: somewheres else
            DATE: June 4 2006, 7:40 PM


            you and your attitude is exactly the reason i took my family and ran from madison. when i first started in the 1990, i thought madison was where it was at. then your faction decided it was good to disturb the Lord's church.

            instead of going out on your own, like they used to do, you used the firemarshal as an excuse and came in and bumped us out. ok. and how biblical is that? i dont trust you or your kind. and that goes for keith lancaster and the praise team. you know full well in your heart that instrumental music, dancing, and getting jiggy is not biblical.and i fear it is to follow. to prove the fact at the 10:30 service when steve flatt first revisited, well, where were all the jumpers and hand clappers? was it respect for steve or fear and guilt? either way, the silence of the hand clappers was deaffening and why? because you know you are wrong for doing it.

            that's right. we are outnumbered and so were the apsotles. but that didnt stop them from spreading the gospel. paul fought the good fight.

            dont think for a minute that you are pulling anything off. your deceipt is apparent.

            now, since i probably will not revisit this site ever again because of the deep depression i feel at "christians" quarrleing, go ahead, all of you and persecute me with your gramatical criticisms and justifications for following your true leader. Even he, satan, can quote scripture for his own good. you have assisted him in breaking up one of the greatest bodies of Christ. and look out while we are fighting each other (while the church continues to divide) for the muslims. i pray for all of us that he forgive us for what we do.

            i just have one last request: out of respect for Christ, keep the building that we helped fund for so many years, but please change the name.


_____________________________________

Our sincere thanks to the new poster—the message speaks volumes. There’s not anything else I can add, change or remove from it.

Don’t you still see what the ConcernedMembers website has been warning other congregations about?

Donnie

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
65.1.221.199

The Fire Marshal, the “Worship Leader,” and the Praise Team

June 6 2006, 10:21 PM 

This is really worth exclaiming!!! One of the best evidences thus far coming from one family among many that have left Madison—here it is with my emphases in []:

  • Instead of going out on your own = [Or starting from scratch],
  • Like they used to do = [Without the subtle subversion and eventual takeover],
  • You used the fire marshal as an excuse = [Oh, the basement was a fire hazard because of overcrowding during charismatic activities …]
  • And came in and bumped us out = [This would give us, intruders, the right to go barging into the cozy and spacious auditorium already occupied by the peaceful brethren at 10:30 a.m.]….
  • I don’t trust you = [Change Agents]
  • Or your kind = [Change advocates, followers and supporters],
  • And that goes for Keith Lancaster = [The “Worship Leader” whose $$$alary for “paid services for the Master” is taken from the saints’ collection]
  • And the “Praise Team” = [Keith’s elite musical performers with amplifiers].

Do you get the picture?

Only the Lord knows how MANY families have been alienated and left because of such problems that STILL EXIST?

Only the Lord knows how MANY families have the desire to return to Madison once the root cause of the problems has been eliminated.

Donnie

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
65.1.221.199

The “ANNUAL CORPORATION MEETING” Thingy

June 8 2006, 11:16 PM 

Were the churches of Christ in Jerusalem, Rome, Ephesus, Corinth, Galatia, Thessalonica, etc., incorporated? I found the following announcement in the Marcher (Vol. 55, No. 08, May 28, 2006) and in the worship guide in regard to Madison Church of Christ, Incorporated:

    Madison Church of Christ
    ANNUAL CORPORATION
    MEETING
    Wednesday, June 7th
    6 p.m.
    In the Auditorium


    Madison Family Day
    June 4th
    9 a.m. Sunday School —— 10 a.m. Combined Worship
    THEN GO TO
    Valley View Camp for a catered meal, lots of activities and entertainment!


So, how did the chairperson handle the meeting of the corporation yesterday?

So, would you guess if the contemporary congregants were at their best behavior while the “traditional” folks from the 8:00 a.m. period were in the COMBINED gathering at 10:00 a.m.?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
65.1.221.199

But . . . is church incorporating required by law?

June 10 2006, 2:32 PM 

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Concerned Christian [concernedchristian23@yahoo.com]
    Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 10:34 PM
    To: Donnie Cruz
    Subject: Corporation Meetings at my Old Church


    Hey Brother Donnie,

    I was reading your post about the Corporation Meeting. I use to minister at a church and we had "Corporation" Meetings and it was Federal Law that we elect a board to put on the "paperwork." It was more for formality sake than anything. After the closing prayer on of the Elders would get up and ask the congregation if they would like to nominate any new board members and that was about it. Not sure what the Madison meeting is about, but that was what we had to do because of the law.

    Hope that helps.

    In Christ,

    Brandon

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
65.1.221.199

Being passionate about the truth and forgiving

June 10 2006, 2:18 PM 

-----Original Message-----
From: Concerned Christian [concernedchristian23@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 1:36 AM
To: Donnie Cruz
Subject: Re: Madison Timeline # 10


Not sure if you got my response. But it is no problem posting my email communication with you.

Have a good one.

In Christ,

Brandon

_____________________________

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Concerned Christian [mailto: concernedchristian23@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 10:01 PM
    To: Donnie Cruz
    Subject: Re: Madison Timeline # 10


    Donnie,

    That is perfectly fine. Have a great weekend!

    God Bless,

    Brandon

    _____________________________

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Donnie Cruz [donniecruz@msn.com]
      Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 10:13 PM
      To: 'Concerned Christian'
      Subject: Re: Madison Timeline # 10


      Brandon,

      I’m sorry that I was unable to respond to your previous email as soon as I received it—just been extremely busy.

      We all need to continue to pray and be forgiving.

      Would you give me permission to post your previous e-mail? (Now, you’re not obligated to consent.) And if so, (a) is there any part or parts that should not be printed—your name, complete e-mail address, etc.; (b) would you prefer without my comment?

      Please let me know soon. If you say, nay, I’ll accept that, too.

      In His service,

      Donnie

      _____________________________

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Concerned Christian [concernedchristian23@yahoo.com]
        Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 6:44 PM
        To: Donnie Cruz
        Subject: Re: Madison Timeline # 10


        Did you not receive my previous email?

        Brandon

        _____________________________

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Concerned Christian [concernedchristian23@yahoo.com]
          Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:33 PM
          To: Donnie Cruz
          Subject: Re: Madison Timeline # 10


          Donnie I want to call a truce with you. I have been praying about some things and realize that we are fighting each other rather than communicating. We do not agree very much on various things, but one thing that we do agree on is that Jesus is the Lord and Savior and Blessed be His Name.

          I do respect the fact that you communicate and are passionate about your faith, even if we do not agree on Instruments or Praise Teams etc. Please forgive me for being as rough on you as I have. Please pass on to Dr. Crump my apologies as well. I wish you the best as you labor for Jesus and look forward to seeing you in Heaven.

          Your Brother in Christ,
          Brandon Harris

____________________________

 
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ConcernedMembers
(no login)
70.146.131.58

To be continued …

June 23 2006, 1:37 AM 



======================================

“What Happened at Madison This Week—Part XI” is “under construction.”

Either Part X has exceeded its capacity for being viewed in its entirety due to security issues with certain PCs or accessing the page is delayed.


======================================



 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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