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Concerned in Kentucky
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Re: To concerned in Kentucky:

June 28 2005, 9:49 AM 


Thank you for the reply. I sincerely appreciate your prompt response. I followed that link, but it only points to one picture...that of the woman "Youth Minister." Surely she is not the only person that Madison has working with the youth. What about the young men? Do they approve of a woman teaching them?

Is the other fellow you mentioned (I believe his name was Hall) involved with this as well? Does he work with the young men, or have any role in all of this? Is he submitting to the authority of the woman "Youth Minister"? All of this is very confusing. I look forward to as much information as you can provide.

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(no login)

Re: To concerned in Kentucky:

June 28 2005, 10:26 AM 

If I understand it correctly, there is a female youth minister for the girls and a male for the guys. Given the troubles faced by teenage girls today, this is a pretty wise move if your church can afford it.

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Donnie Cruz
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The Female Youth Minister

June 29 2005, 3:26 AM 


If I understand you correctly, are troubles not faced by teenage boys today? Are the boys separated from the girls when they travel to a youth camp? Are the boys separated from the girls when they make music, sing their silly singy-clappy-clappy songs?

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Donnie Cruz
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Welcome, Concerned!

June 29 2005, 3:24 AM 

You’re correct about the only picture. I had noticed the same thing when I provided the link. I guess it served my intention to make you wonder and ask about the missing picture of the other “Youth Minister”—the man. [My speculation is that the new YM guy’s picture is not ready for the church’s site webmaster to put on that same page.]

Just curious here—why is “Youth Minister” in quotes? Uh-oh … you’re learning from me rather quickly. Those other thingies called “Worship Leader” … “Praise Team” … “Worship and Media Center Ministry” … “Shepherds” [note: “shepherds” is OK and scriptural; but the change agents prefer to refer to “loving shepherds” over “mean elders”—just like “praise team” instead of the “denominational church choir,” etc.]. Since when did “it” become “Worship Ministry”? I think this “pastor” thingy has already started—i.e., reference to the sermon delivery guy [or gal, perhaps, in the near future] as the “pastor.” But one main point to consider is that, just like businesses, MCC, Inc. (that means “incorporated”—right?) must be staffed. Personnel, being paid or not paid, is really none of my business. But I wonder what the Lord thinks of the collection for the poor and needy saints going towards the “worship ministry” [huh?] and the “Worship Leader,” et al.

Oops … back to your questions. Keith Hall is the male “Youth Minister”—and is Tory Tredway’s replacement. BTW, many people have wondered to this day how and why Tory lost his job. [Hush, Tory wasn’t the singy-clappy charismatic kind of guy. He was young but he did not meet the “contemporary” standards.] In case you didn’t know, there are a few posts in the thread about “Tory Tredway.” Check the Page 1 Index for this thread last-dated March 4, 2005.

Concerned, I just re-read your second paragraph. You certainly are full of … um … intelligent and logical questions. Are you really surprised [and disappointed and sad] that these things are happening at Madison? Speaking of roles, I myself wonder sometimes as to how much longer it’ll be before the congregation will have deaconesses. Rick Atchley’s Richland Hills in Texas does. Rubel Shelly’s Woodmont Hills Family of God in Nashville is not far behind. Max Lucado’s Oak Hills [Community] Church is enjoying musical instruments in one of its “worship” periods.

I think in one of my posts above I listed a few of Madison’s adult Sunday classes that have both men and women teachers. The Praise Team that co-leads with “Worship Leader” Keith Lancaster has the same number of women as men leading in “worship Of course, the change agents will argue that women lead other women in singing the soprano and alto parts. Doesn’t that make one wonder how many men sing soprano with their women leaders? Or, is it those men’s turn to “keep silent in the church” this time? This reminds me of the congregational singing situation in Madison’s “contemporary” assembly which, by the way, is overpowered by Keith’s Praise Team. Maybe I should invite you to visit Madison and see and hear Keith and his musicians perform. I have the gut feeling that members of Keith’s music team expect our Father in heaven to enjoy their musical concert like humans do.

I agree with you, Concerned. It is all confusing. Thanks for asking.


P.S.: Would you be interested in reading my “testimony” in the next day or two regarding my latest charismatic experience? It happened this past Sunday. I’ll probably post part of on Thursday and the rest of it afterwards. We’ll just see.

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(no login)

Re: Welcome, Concerned!

June 29 2005, 9:15 AM 

No, Donnie. Teenage boys have problems too. However, there are problems that are unique to teenage girls, and they are more likely to share them with a woman.

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: The Female Youth Minister

July 3 2005, 12:16 AM 


I've studied a course in psychology and individual differences. Also, what you have stated is common knowledge.

So, let me re-state my questions: Are the boys separated from the girls when they travel to a youth camp? Are the boys separated from the girls when they make music, sing their silly singy-clappy-clappy songs?

In fact, let me ask you another question: When boys and girls [or should I say young men and young women Christians] are together as they do their "praise" thingy by singing some silly singy-clappy-clappy "praise" music, would you have no objection to the female youth minister leading the group that also includes the young Christian men?


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(no login)

Re: The Female Youth Minister

July 3 2005, 11:20 PM 

Yes, Donnie, I would object to that. I would also object to both of them leading songs together.

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Donnie Cruz
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Female Youth Minister and “Worship Leader”

July 4 2005, 4:58 PM 

Thanks, B, for qualifying your previous statement. I think we are clear on this one. If the "older" lady does not go beyond counseling the "younger" women, I have no objection to that, although I believe that this should be voluntary on her part. If she seeks employment in the church simply for this purpose and expects to be compensated for it, that no longer is a type of service in the sense that one is willing to be a servant of the Lord in that capacity—freely a sacrifice or service in the vineyard of the Lord. A social worker should seek employment [i.e., with salary] somewhere else—not in the church.

Let me point out, though, that a “female counselor” [reason why the “official” title of “Youth Minister” designated to a female is misleading] who is being compensated for “counseling” is no worse than the “WORSHIP LEADER” being a fulltime employee of the congregation, even if it is “incorporated” like a company, who does nothing else but WAG his arms and hands for a few hours during the entire week. That is purely MISHANDLING OF THE SAINTS’ collection” intended to assist the needy. As in the case of Madison, there are many very qualified, talented men who can take turns and also do the wagging voluntarily—without wasting the saints’ collection for someone who already has his own business in the name of “religion.” Have you heard of “A Cappella dot Org” … or something like that?


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Donnie Cruz
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Flavoring the Wed. Night’s “Prayer & Praise Service” Choreography

July 13 2005, 4:12 AM 

QUOTED FROM AN E-MAIL: [[[[[… I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic "worship services." I quit going to Tulsa due to this. ... ]]]]]

DATE (2004) ……… P&P
You Are the Song That I SingKey Clapmaster seated   
You’re the One You’re the Only One   seated    
He Has Made Me Glad   standing   
Light the Fire   standing   
I Exalt Thee   standing   
Jerry Morgan  seated   
Reading John 13:34; I John 3:16-18
Mark Steers not projected seated    
Arms of Love   seated   
We Will Stand Key and Kev     
conversation: what does it mean to be a “visitor-friendly church”?
Key and Hal B video operator needs cues for transitions to conver- sations   
1st Video Segment (Opener)
conversation – what others think
Key and Hal B     
2nd Video Segment (negative opinions)
Key and Hal B     
3rd Video Segment (worship & evangelism)
Key and Hal B     
4th video segment – how we treat each other
discuss conclusions from videos
Key and Hal B     
Hal Barns     
Greatest CommandsKev Dunback     
Shepherd’s Prayer
Buck Frazier     
Hallowed Be Thy NameKey and Kev     

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Donnie Cruz
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Contemporary Worship Choreography—Made for TV or “the Audience of One”?

July 21 2005, 5:46 AM 

The Contemporary Christian Music Movement has popularized the expression “the audience of One” in reference to God to whom “corporate worship” is supposedly being directed. It is a defensive argument for the popular notion that a change in “worship style” should not be an issue in a changing society. Is “worship style” the real issue? Or is “worship content” the real issue? I know … I know that the list of questions related to the subject of “worship” is endless.

The document below will reveal to the open-minded reader a typical setting of activities that occur in the “contemporary worship service” at Madison. So, what has become of the simplicity of the “gathering of the saints” that the New Testament speaks of?

Please review the information below very carefully. (“Names have been changed to protect the innocent.”) What does God care about “CCBCEnding – AABABA” or “VCVCVending” or the “prayer leaders and Hal walk[ing] up to stage together” or the “trio seated” at a certain time? What does God care about the elite Praise Team and the use of the microphones so the One can hear the performing team members better and be glorified better than without their voices magnified?

Is choreographed worship “in spirit and in truth”? What does “worship in spirit and in truth” mean? When is it a performance? Is it “holy entertainment”?

Hal Barns   prayer leaders and Hal walk up to stage together
Gregory Drew,
Michael Hurt,
Jason Petersen
 3 prayer leaders, 3 themes: praise, thanksgiving including our freedom in X; seeking God’s guidance
Lord We Come Before Thee Now #419Key Clapmaster v1, v2, ooh a verse while Steve prays, then last verse (modulate the last verse?) all singers and prayer leaders go up to the front at the same time
There is Power in the Blood #667  first and last – repeat chorus – direct into next song standing (song is there is power in the blood: “free” goes with his lesson
Give Thanks to the Lord n.b.#2 CCBCEnding-AABABA 
Light the Fire notebook #171 repeat chorus (normal) 
Leaning on the Everlasting Arms #394 1st & last verse / chorus / repeat chorus  
Greatest Commands no repeats A – B – T – S seated (trio seated)
  testimony about the importance and the desire for fellowship with the church family; perhaps from many people (one line from each) “I can’t make it w/o the fellowship of my brothers and sisters…Can’t wait to be with the church family…etc.)
Love Feast
Blessed Be the Lord God Almighty notebook #10  VCC standing
Shout to the Lord n.b. #11  normal  
I Need You More n.b. #27  normal  
If You Miss Me n.b. #68  normal  
Clap Your Hands n.b. #160  normal  
Hymn Background
Tom Saddleback  seated
Ten Thousand Angels #621  all verses/one chorus  
I Can Only Imagine notebook #104   
Wade Huddles  Bread “Come to the Table” V one Chorus; Cup: Chorus
Carroll Champus  
One Thing I Ask n.b. #101  VCVCVending  
The River Is Here n.b. #174  new big ending dismiss children
Message: “Defeating the Enemies of Change”
Hal Barns  
There’s a Fountain Free #655   song is “There’s a Fountain Free”
Shepherd’s Blessing
Terry Ashford (dealing with freedom in Christ), trio come back to stage
My Life Is in You notebook #46  one bass, only sing one verse (half as long as normally sing) – half  
    sing out: Jesus Will Fix It

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Dr. Bill Crump
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RE: Contemporary Worship Choreography—Made for TV or “the Audience of One”?

July 21 2005, 2:15 PM 

When I see worship choreography such as this written out with all kinds of cues and directions, I am reminded of the liturgy in the Roman Catholic Church and its branches, which is completely written out. All the priest needs to do is read it verbatim if he hasn't already memorized it. Scripture verses are planned for each particular Sunday in the liturgical year, week in and week out, as are the "prayers." Virtually nothing is spontaneous, all done by rote.

In contrast, when I was organist for a Baptist church, there was a printed "order of worship," which listed everything that was supposed to transpire during the service, including the hymns. But that church had a pastor who loved to be "spontaneous" by deviating from the order. He deleted hymns and added hymns on the spur of the moment without ever telling the church musicians in advance, so we often were caught off guard. Sometimes the Minister of Music would be ready to direct the choir in their next number, only to be interrupted by the pastor jumping up to lead the congregation personally in a "spontaneous" hymn that he had just thought of. Being "spontaneous" created nothing but chaos when there were instrumentalists and other performers/entertainers involved.

So on the one hand, we have Churches of Christ who are imitating the Catholics or the Protestant denominations with their "choreographed worship/order of worship," and on the other hand we have Protestant denominations that defeat a "choreographed worship/order of worship" through the chaos of spontaneity.

What's the solution? If a church would be truly spontaneous, get rid of the instrumentalists and those who vocally imitate the sound of instruments. Get rid of any choreographed praise teams, soloists, choirs, and those who would otherwise seek the accolades of men through their "holy" performances. Thus the chaos is removed, and worship is simple and spontaneous.

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(no login)

Re: Contemporary Worship Choreography—Made for TV or “the Audience of One”?

July 21 2005, 11:03 PM 

Wow, Donnie,

Can you reveal where you got these documents? Perhaps from an anonymous scource? You know what Dr. Crump says about anonymous on another thread.

Or, perhaps you just made all this up.

Annie Mouse

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Donnie Cruz
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Message from a "former" worship leader

July 22 2005, 12:44 AM 

Wow, Ms. Mouse,

Here are some interesting observations:

  • Hmmm! By “where” … do you mean which church or congregation? It is certainly not from one of the seven churches in Asia “revealed” in the book of Revelation—not from Ephesus, Smyrna [Tennessee], Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis [Alabama], Philadelphia [PA], Laodicea.

  • If you’re not afraid to reveal yourself, I’ll consider letting you know if I received them by e-mail, by priority/express mail or by regular mail or if they were specially delivered or handed to me.

  • I’m trying to think really hard. If I made up the documents, would I be recognized as a creative producer? Would the documents be more credible or less? I now wonder what I really meant when I said that the names were changed “to protect the innocent.”

  • Speaking of another thread, “Contemporary Worship Choreography—Made for TV or ‘the Audience of One’? ” should be a good one to check out. In fact, both documents were initially posted in that thread. The last post in this thread is dated May 29, 2005 at 6:46 a.m.

I have just read that last post from that thread. Guess what, Annie? I want to thank you for your post above. I was going to do a follow-up article. But why bother? I am reposting that last post, plus the e-mail I got from a FORMER “Worship Leader,” Dan Lucarini. Madison’s “Worship Leader,” Keith Lancaster (Church of Christ, I think), could use some advice from Dan Lucarini, a FORMER “Worship Leader” (Baptist).


Message from a "former" worship leader
May 29 2005 at 6:46 AM

I must share this special message from someone who is highly knowledgeable about the CCM Movement. In fact, he has written a book published by Evangelical Press, “Why I Left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement,” now on its 13th printing. I have been granted permission to post this personally treasured e-mail from Dan Lucarini:


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Dan Lucarini []
    Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 7:29 PM
    Subject: Contemporary Worship Choreography-Made for TV or "the Audience of One"?

    Hey Donnie,

    I see you are still stirring up the 'worship' hornet nest! So am I. As a former worship leader, I knew exactly what the order of service you printed means. I chuckled at the 'VCC' (verse-chorus-repeat chorus). At the same time, seeing it again made me realize afresh how trite and manipulative is the entire exercise of 'planning worship'.

    There's an interesting book out called Worship: The Simple Mystery by Dan McGowan (friend of mine). It should have been titled 'confessions of a current worship leader'. Dan recounts the time a professional worship consultant came to his Evang Pres church and taught the worship team how to fake the sincerity. He also laments the professionalism that has taken over Sunday mornings.

    Our contemporary worship friends are caught in a dilemma of their own making. On one hand they tell us we have to abandon the old, dead, lifeless forms of worship where people do the same thing over and over again, and there is no spontaneity allowed. On the other hand, these same people rigorously program their own worship services with lots of little manipulative entertainment tricks like those in your article.

    Spontaneity always degenerates into ritual, whenever men devise their own ways to worship the gods. But where there is spiritual worship in truth (John 4:24), ritual cannot take control.

    Blessings in Christ, my fellow soldier. Hope to meet someday Lord willing.



    Contemporary Worship Choreography—Made for TV or "the Audience of One"? Donnie Cruz



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(no login)

Re: Message from a "former" worship leader

July 22 2005, 4:25 PM 


If I told you who I am, you don't really expect me to believe you will reveal the source of you garbage, do you?

Bubba, I don't trust you in the outhouse with a muzzle on!!

Annie M.

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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

Re: Re: Message from a "former" worship leader

July 22 2005, 9:56 PM 


More items for your consideration:

  • You are absolutely correct that I would not reveal the source.
  • It is also correct that you obviously did not very carefully read my very carefully worded statement about letting you know:
    • If I received them by e-mail,
    • . . . by priority/express mail
    • . . . or by regular mail
    • . . . or if they were specially delivered
    • . . . or handed to me [end of revelation].
  • It is good to know that you agree with me that this “Worship Leader’s” choreography is “garbage.” You said it “right.” You said it first.

By the way, you just delivered in one short word an excellent description of choreographed worship—GARBAGE!

Annie, thank you!


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(no login)

Re: Re: Message from a "former" worship leader

July 22 2005, 11:54 PM 

You did'nt read my post very carefully either. It said "you' garbage. It was a typo on my part. It really said "your" garbage. That means it is "yours" not anyone else's. You are very good a spouting on and on and on about what if's and maybe's. When 'ya grow up and get a life, and maybe a couple friends, instead of alienating the world about the truth??

Steppin off my box


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Donnie Cruz
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Whose Garbage Is Worship Choreography?

July 23 2005, 3:55 AM 


I have worked as a compiler-proofreader. I edit. I notice typos and errors. So, be glad that I didn’t bring it [your typo] to your attention first.

Although I changed the names to “protect the innocent,” I did not make up the documents. Therefore, the documents are not my “garbage.” The worship choreography is THE garbage. That has been precisely the gist of my posts.

And now I’m the one alienating the world about the truth? Sorry, Annie, it’s the other way around. I haven’t changed anything. I’ve been consistent in defending the truth and the church. It is folks like you who have the persistence and determination to change things around—but God does not need any of the change agents’ schemes to pervert or compromise the truth or to improvise God’s will and directives for the church or to transform and restructure the church.

In case you haven’t realized it, it’s the offering of “strange fire before the Lord” (Lev. 10:1; Num. 3:4; Num. 26:61), the introduction of imitated doctrines and beliefs of other religions, and the modifications of God’s scheme of redemption and His principles and commands—that create alienation, havoc, conflicts and division in congregations.

By the way, I think you need to practice what you’ve been preaching to me and others. You know, this thingy about “loving one another.” Only if it were genuine! My observation has been that it dissipates rather quickly when your borrowed doctrines and beliefs are challenged by God’s truth.

Have a great weekend!


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Dr. Bill Crump
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RE: Message from a "Former" Worship Leader (Annie Mouse)

July 23 2005, 8:53 AM 

I never will cease to be amazed at the utterly predictable natures of change agents and others who oppose God's truth and this web site. Having no solid ground whatsoever upon which to support their unbiblical agenda, their pseudo-Christian personalities rapidly crumble to reveal unfortunate, empty shells capable of no greater "achievements" than hurling insults, sarcasm, and/or character assassinations. "Annie" perfectly demonstrates this to us from the dark depths of anonymity:

"When 'ya grow up and get a life, and maybe a couple friends, instead of alienating the world about the truth??"

"Annie" and others of like persuasion exist only to goad and harass, "get under the skin," divide and tear down. Would that they could aspire to higher, Christian virtues.

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Donnie Cruz
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Paid “Worship Ministry” at Madison—a Misguided Spiritual Endeavor

August 5 2005, 2:21 AM 

“Worship Ministry”—Its LOST Focus on Worship
AND FOUND Focus on Musical Idolatry

Only the last name [but not the first character] of each “responsible” individual below has been changed “to protect the innocent.” The following list of “Updates and Improvements” was addressed to the “Worship Team” of the Madison congregation on December 29, 2004:



ANNOUNCEMENT SLIDES_______Responsible: Keith Hill

  • Need to run 5 minutes before service begins (Sundays 8:00 A.M., 10:30 A.M. and 6:00 P.M. and Wednesdays 6:30 P.M.) and immediately at the end of each service for 5 minutes.
  • Add numerous interesting Madison details/factoids with as many pictures as possible.

SLIDE CONTENT_____________Responsible: Keith Hill

  • Make sure words don’t bleed off the screen for sermon notes or song lyrics. Due to the limitations of the viewable space on the screen in the auditorium, refrain from utilizing the top ¼ to 1/3 of the screen for text.
  • For song lyrics, use minimal capitalization—generally just first word of slide and any references to Deity. Often the letter O looks better capitalized too, as in O what a glorious God.
  • Minimal punctuation, only what is critical for understanding. Rarely use ending punctuation (exclamation points, periods, etc)
  • If men and women sing different parts, call them men and women, not ladies, guys, females etc.
  • The overall text of a song should be consistent in font size. Be sure that the text size doesn’t change during a complete song.

SLIDE PROOFING____________Responsible: Keith Hill

  • Be sure to check lyrics against the Finale sheet music if we have that song in Finale. There are three different folders in the Finale file. Most of the music that is finalized is in the “master” folder. Ken’s songs have not been checked by KL [Keith “Clapmaster”] yet but we are still using them. Most of these are traditional songs from the hymnals that Eric and Ken are entering for us to have in Finale. That way it is quick and easy to pull a whole service from Finale most of the time, even the early/evening services.
  • Utilize a third-party proofer.
  • If the sheet music is not in Finale, be sure to check the lyrics against the hymnal in Bixler OR the hymnal in the auditorium, depending on where the service will be held.
  • Review song lyrics for all upcoming services on Wednesday.
  • Operator review each program with worship leader before each service.

VIDEO MINISTRY____________Responsible: Keith Hill

  • Have videos reviewed on Wednesday prior to the Sunday service.

SHEET MUSIC_______________Responsible: Leanne Sheay

  • Copy praise team music books for late service, Prayer & Praise class, funerals, away games and other praise team events.
  • Prepare worship leader books as needed.

PRAYER LEADERS____________Responsible: Leanne Sheay

  • Contact prayer leaders for both Sunday morning services and Prayer & Praise class; mail their reminder cards; explain flow/procedures to all.

ASSEMBLY READINGS_________Responsible: Leanne Sheay

  • Research and prepare good hymn backgrounds for future use; get ahead at least 10 of these to choose from.
  • Congregational readings from Scripture; get ahead at least 10 selections to choose from.
  • Congregational readings (creative/poetic), same quantity.
  • Call to worship passages, same
  • Shepherd’s blessings, same

SONG TRACKING_____________Responsible: Leanne Sheay

  • Track song usage in a spreadsheet.

SINGING WORKSHOP__________Responsible: Kay Nickens

  • Plan course content, logistics, materials/handouts needed.
  • Plan promotion and communications needs.

PRAISE TEAM & LEADER DEVT Responsible: Kay Nickens

  • Plan double praise team makeup, rehearsal schedules, music needs.
  • Plan and implement praise team events, including banquet, training workshops and fellowship events.
  • Orient new praise team members.
  • Plan training times for additional worship leaders.
  • Help facilitate teen praise team launch and children’s chorus.

LONG RANGE PLANNING_______Responsible: Kay Nickens

  • Prayer & Praise class
  • Introduction of new songs
  • Finale (sheet music) needs
  • Tabulate data from song tracking database
  • Future video ideas

WRITING___________________Responsible: Kay Nickens

  • Newsletter development; write additional training articles and news articles.
  • Marcher articles (Keith’s series on worship, Chris’ articles on P&P)

DEPT. TRACKING PROCESS____Responsible: Kay Nickens

  • Plan and implement tracking and follow-through for action items

NEW SONG BOOK_____________Responsible: Kay Nickens

  • Coordinate roll-out of new song book, including sales of individual copies


Matthew 4—“[1] Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. [2] And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. [3] And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. [4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. [5] Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, [6] And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. [7] Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. [8] Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; [9] And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. [10] Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve

Matthew 15—“[7] Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, [8] This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. [9] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men

John 4—“[20] Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. [21] Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. [22] Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. [23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. [24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Paid “Worship Ministry” at Madison—a Misguided Spiritual Endeavor

August 27 2005, 9:17 PM 

I know … I know it’s been a while since Annie told me, “You are very good a spouting on and on and on about what if's and maybe's. When 'ya grow up and get a life, and maybe a couple friends, instead of alienating the world about the truth?”

So, what does “alienating the world about the truth” really mean?

Hopefully, the reader has gotten a pretty good picture of what really goes on with the “worship ministry” that the spiritual leaders of Madison have allowed to go on and on. I thought that the ministry of the church was generally understood to mean some spiritual service which pertains to the preaching of the gospel of Christ leading to the conversion of souls—UNPAID!!! Remember, God’s message is free and it is proclaimed so that the unconverted who hears this message will receive this FREE offer of salvation.

I have presented three important documents that clearly illustrate that the PAID “worship ministry” at Madison is funded with the saints’ contribution intended for the needy saints. “Worship Ministry” … did you say? Wha-a-a-a…???? PAID out-of-focus “services” for the Lord … eh … eh … eh?

    Romans 1:1, 25-26—“We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. … But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem

    Romans 12:[10] Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; [11] Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; [12] Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; [13] Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

In addition, I will never forget what Dan Lucarini said [cf. e-mail above]:

    I see you are still stirring up the 'worship' hornet nest! So am I. As a former worship leader, I knew exactly what the order of service you printed means. I chuckled at the 'VCC' (verse-chorus-repeat chorus). At the same time, seeing it again made me realize afresh how trite and manipulative is the entire exercise of 'planning worship'.

Yes, I have a lot of catching up to do. [Meanwhile, the “Worship Leader,” with his “Praise Team,” is not off the hook.] OK, the “worship team” has its performances and holy entertainment unabated—even though the participants, except the “Worship Leader,” with their hand-held microphones are not appearing on stage yet … not yet … but still they are performing.

One elder has passed away; two elders have been appointed by fellow elders; and another elder has resigned since the recent appointment of the two.

By the way, we have discussed in the past the “brotherly relationship” between the former “interim pulpit minister,” Dr. Bruce White, and the “Worship Leader—who was the real boss? It is about time we also see the same “brotherly relationship” between the current “pulpit minister,” Phil Barnes, and the “Worship Leader—who is the real boss? Who wins between the musical worship entertainer and the supposedly proclaimer of the truth?

So, I have bumped this thread. Please review the documents presented earlier.


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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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