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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.19.70.33

The Real Winners

October 15 2005, 4:53 PM 

Eddie stated, “Ya'll think the conflict is over and Ya'll aint woke up and realized you lost???”

The change agents scoff and laugh at those of us who proclaim the Word of God, who admonish all to stay on the narrow path, who strive to keep worldliness and man-contrived doctrines out of the Church. Because so many churches are “changing” and becoming more contemporary, more like the world, the change agents, heretics, and other detractors of the Church of Christ revel in the delusion that they have “won.” Is their supposed victory filled with the spirit of Christ or merely a lust for the world? Is their supposed victory truly Christ-centered or man-centered? Want to know who the real winners are?

1. Those who are willing to hear the Word (John 6:45 KJV).

2. Those who believe the Word (John 3:16 KJV).

3. Those who repent of their sins (Luke 13:3 KJV).

4. Those who confess that Jesus is Lord (Matt. 10:32 KJV).

5. Those who are baptized for remission of sins (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21 all KJV).

6: Those who faithfully follow the New Testament to the letter, from Matt 1:1 (KJV) to Rev. 22:21 (KJV).

Those who have difficulty accepting warnings of several months ago about the Change Movement will have even further difficulty accepting the New Testament, which was written some 2,000 years ago.



 
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Eddie
(no login)
68.52.253.237

Re: The Real Winners

October 17 2005, 4:15 PM 

Dr. Crump,
Have you changed the 5 acts into 6, and thus become a change agent?

Please accept this question in the humor it was given!!

EW



 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.19.70.134

RE: The Real Winners (Eddie)

October 17 2005, 6:33 PM 

Who's changed anything? Look again at this list of the real WINNERS. The first five winners on the list are those who have taken the five steps to salvation. Those five steps haven't changed, for the New Testament hasn't changed (hint: the five steps are deduced by studying the New Testament). The sixth winners on the list are those who, now with faith in their salvation, live Christ-centered lives every day according to the entire New Testament. It's not enough just to take the five steps and say, "I'm now saved," then shirk it all. The remainder of the Christian life must follow the entire New Testament in all things that Christ commanded us (Matt. 28:20 KJV). But you knew that all along. I regret that you find "humor" in all this.

 
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Eddie
(no login)
68.52.253.237

Re: RE: The Real Winners (Eddie)

October 17 2005, 9:39 PM 

Dr. Crump,

There is humor in everthing. I see you don't have much in you. On a serious note, could you tell me how many "commands" are found in the NT.

EW

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.19.66.129

RE: The Real Winners (Eddie, Oct. 17)

October 18 2005, 8:49 AM 

Jesus said, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, (even) unto the end of the world" (Matt. 28:19-20 KJV). It was Jesus who used a form of the word "command." The New Testament contains His commands, given directly by Him or indirectly through the apostles' epistles.

The "number" of commands He gave to us is irrelevant, and I think you know that. Have I counted them? No. Why should I? Why should you? Should we obey only three or four instead of, say, five or ten? The important thing is that we obey ALL of them. And saying, "I can't obey ALL of Jesus' commands until I know exactly how many there are" just won't wash as a weak attempt to be humorous. If you study the New Testament, those commands will become a part of your life, and you will think, not in terms of how many there are, but in how you can live up to them as a whole. Living up to them will be far more important than worrying about their number. My friend, I hope you will take Jesus' commands as serious business and not waste precious time trying to count their number for purposes of being witty and "humorous."

Yes, friend, there is humor in life, but with some subjects, humor is inappropriate. I think you know that, too.

 
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Eddie
(no login)
68.52.253.237

Hebrews 13 (for Donnie)

October 16 2005, 11:35 AM 

Donnie,
Perhaps you should read ALL of Hebrews 13. There's a good message for all of us.

HEB 13:1 Keep on loving each other as brothers. 2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it. 3 Remember those in prison as if you were their fellow prisoners, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.

HEB 13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. 5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,

"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you."

HEB 13:6 So we say with confidence,

"The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid.
What can man do to me?"

HEB 13:7 Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

HEB 13:9 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them. 10 We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat.

HEB 13:11 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore. 14 For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.

HEB 13:15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise--the fruit of lips that confess his name. 16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

HEB 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

HEB 13:18 Pray for us. We are sure that we have a clear conscience and desire to live honorably in every way. 19 I particularly urge you to pray so that I may be restored to you soon.

HEB 13:20 May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

HEB 13:22 Brothers, I urge you to bear with my word of exhortation, for I have written you only a short letter.

HEB 13:23 I want you to know that our brother Timothy has been released. If he arrives soon, I will come with him to see you.

HEB 13:24 Greet all your leaders and all God's people. Those from Italy send you their greetings.

HEB 13:25 Grace be with you all.


 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
70.157.41.90

Revised: “There’s a good message for all of us”

October 16 2005, 9:52 PM 

Eddie,

Thanks for the message. (A portion of your beginning paragraph is appropriate; so, this post is titled based on your statement: “There’s a good message for all of us.”)

When proponents of the Change Movement are challenged, one of their defenses against those of us who are opposed to changes that are controversial in nature and have no redeeming value is the accusation that love is absent among the opposing brethren.

While I have maintained all along that LOVE—which one either does have or does not have—is not the issue whatsoever. Well, I still believe that LOVE is not the issue. So, then, if LOVE is not the issue, what is the issue? ANSWER: changes being forced upon those who do not welcome or want or need them. However, the reminder from Eddie has made it even clearer for me. The explanation follows.

I realize that changes in doctrine to accommodate the denominational neighbors and friends are a part of the Change Movement scheme. This part of the slick maneuver by the change agents is often overshadowed by the more obvious changes, such as changes related to “worship content.”

O.K., let’s put aside doctrinal issues for now. So, we’re getting to the more obvious issue—and many call it changes in “worship style.” My contention is that any reference to the word “style” is deceptive—change agents, of course, are known to deceive. The word “content” is the accurate description of the enforced changes in “worship.”

Now back to LOVE. What if the current “Worship Leader” had not taken upon himself or had not been allowed to take the lead in doing his self-serving thingy called rhythmic handclapping? What if he had not introduced his elite musical group called “Praise Team” [with microphones - - - > = < - - - performance] into the assembly? What if he had only rejected certain erotic “praise” songs and unscriptural musical pieces written by Twila and others in the money-venturing Contemporary Christian Music industry?

Above all, if there was only LOVE among the change movers? The change-at-any-cost-for-any-cause proponents should have known that many members of a congregation being intruded upon would be OFFENDED!!! As in Madison’s case, WHAT IF there had been LOVE on the part of the intruders in the first place? Could the rift and the upheaval been avoided? Guess what? No … no … no one would have to guess. The answer is clear.

By the way, you would think that by now, all the current elders at this congregation should have learned more about sensitive issues. Well, a few of them haven’t yet. During the singing of the “dismissal” song titled, “Take the Lord with You,” two “new” elders [one of whom had led the “Shepherd’s Prayer” prior] were clapping their hands to the beat of the music on the stage right before the congregation. “Take the Lord with you everywhere you go. In the street, in the home, on the job [… and what about the jobless…], all alone, highways, byways….”

Donnie

 
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Eddie
(no login)
68.52.253.237

Re: Revised: “There’s a good message for all of us”

October 17 2005, 4:11 PM 

Well, I have to agree with most of what you said. (Did I just say that??) Especially the part about "forced" change. They were warned that changes made too quickly would result in exactly what happened. I'm not opposed to change. I do not believe Madison is doing anything un-scriptual, however I am opposed to the way it was done. I am also opposed to the way Concerned Members gets it's message across. I am opposed to the way you attack people, and not the problem. I also do not think people that have NEVER set foot in Madison should have any opinion at all.

I am also opposed to any institution that has a "staff infection"

Donnie, Am I still classified as a "change agent?"

EW.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
70.149.148.86

“Am I still classified as a ‘change agent’?”

October 18 2005, 12:26 AM 

Eddie,

FYI, the label “change agent” was originated by change agents themselves. Generally, the term “change agent” is attributed to any leader in the Change Movement, usually someone who is well-known in a particular fellowship. For example, Rick Warren, who was originally associated with the Southern Baptist Convention, would be a change agent—a very famous one at that. He is the father of the post-modern church growth scheme that is responsible for the rise of the Community Church Movement. (As you know, he is the leader of the Saddleback Community Church in California.) This means that the church growth scheme has various religious groups “indulging” in it.

The church growth scheme has also infected a number of churches of Christ, one of which is the Madison congregation. The prominent change agents in the brotherhood are Max Lucado of Oak Hills [now a Community Church], Rick Atchley of Richland Hills, Rubel Shelly of Woodmont Hills—just to name a few. These and other men are well-known in the fellowship.

Lesser known change agents are known to infiltrate certain congregations. They collaborate with some, if not with the majority, of the elders of a local congregation. When this occurs, the participating elders and other leaders [e.g., Keith Lancaster] then become change agents. Overall, change agents have supporters and followers who assist in carrying out their usually deceptive scheme. Madison is in this category.

You must know, Eddie, that this site and most members of the church are not opposed to all changes. There are changes that are truly beneficial—such as the use of what the technologies have made available to us. So, let me complete your statement as follows—“I am not [and no one should be] opposed to change so long as the change does not conflict with the Scripture; does not engender controversy, strife and division; does not offend or alienate fellow brethren; is not forced upon others; and is a justifiable necessity—all of the above.”

If handclapping negates just any one of the above, it should be avoided or rejected. Even in the case of using the professional services of a “Praise Team.” Otherwise, if there is a group who insists on pursuing the issue, that group should go somewhere else and start its own, and it has no business interfering and intruding.

Call this hindsight. But in Madison’s situation, the congregation would have remained intact for the most part had the third charismatic contemporary group not intruded and hijacked the second assembly at 10:30. The third group could have easily had its own assembly in the auditorium at another period—say 11:30—and been allowed to do their own thingy!!!!!

I’ll agree with you somewhat that Madison appears to be on the “scriptural” side of the equation—unlike a few other congregations which have changed quite a bit doctrinally. But that’s looking at it on the surface. One doctrinal issue that has stood out so far is regarding tithing—but I think the membership knows better … the doctrine died at the very outset. Some of the contemporary songs written by money-making pop artists are un-scripturally R- or X-rated. [And it appears that your “Worship Leader” cares about the message that’s pleasing to human nature and consumption—to the beat and charismatic—without regard for what the New Testament says concerning singing … “letting the Word of Christ dwell in you richly … teaching and admonishing one another.”] Phil Barnes is noticeably being careful about doctrinal matters in his joke-filled, personal-experience-filled sermons.

Eddie, it is not the intent of Concerned Members to attack any individual member of Madison. The congregation has gone through a lot—and it is simply our objective to warn other congregations which have not yet been infected … to be on the lookout for change agents whose scheme is very subtle. Yes, we’re tough on the prominent change agents and church LEADERS who do not have the fortitude to defend the congregation that they’ve been entrusted to shepherd and oversee.

Eddie, you do have a good sense of humor. I have been using the expression “infected” or “infection.” Guess what? I really like your very descriptive term—“STAFF INFECTION.” I’m not sure how you would use the term. But it suits me just fine to describe Madison’s Worship Ministry staff. How they came up with “worship” as a ministry, only the Bible can or cannot tell. But it certainly has “staff infection.” It certainly was/is the major cause for Madison’s troubles. I believe that if the staff is disinfected, the congregation will be healthy again.

Sorry, Eddie, it took me this long to answer your question. You may be sympathetic to the cause of the Change Movement, perhaps to a certain extent, but, NO—you are NOT a change agent. Unless you want to be one of its leaders … By the way, I have no respect for anyone who accuses me of “sowing discord.” I have/had nothing to do with the mass exodus of members in 2001. You have/had nothing to do with the rift, either. So, you’re just fine.

Thanks for your post!

Donnie

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
70.149.148.115

Is it elder-led or is it ministerial staff-led?

November 4 2005, 8:35 AM 

I have just posted an article taken rom “The Christian Chronicle” (cf. thread: “A Better Suggestion—Mark and Avoid!”). It is titled: “Love and truth the way to unity.” Personally, I question the achievability of such a resolution, good as it sounds maybe. While I believe that the list is not exhaustive enough, it’s a better list of factors to consider—much better—than to simply say that there’s only one controversial element in why certain congregations have experienced division and alienation of brethren, i.e., change in “worship style.” The expression “worship style” is in itself very misleading because what’s actually happening is in the change in “worship content”—the culture-driven rather than the divine-driven content in the messages in many of the songs and in the milk sermons.

Here’s the list from the article, “Love and truth the way to unity” (The Christian Chronicle)”:


“The tensions have developed around many issues that have been around for centuries, but some are uniquely related to the Restoration views of the church. The principal questions on the table for debate seem to deal with the following matters:

  • Authority and inerrancy of Scripture

  • Translations of the Bible

  • Biblical interpretation that discounts many teachings/practices as reflections of first-century culture

  • Music: a cappella singing led by praise teams, with the use of instrumental music for special occasions

  • Confusing traditional practices and divine authority

  • Shifting from elder-led to ministerial staff-led churches

  • View that what one believes is unimportant — only one’s sincerity

  • Urban churches vs. rural/small town churches;

  • Attitudes about connections with those not in “Churches of Christ”

  • The name “Church of Christ” and its history.

These questions pose serious obstacles to perfect unity, but as people with a rich heritage of logical thinking and analysis we should have the necessary tools to work out our differences. As people devoted to Biblical authority and truth we are accustomed to searching for truth with open Bible and minds….”


_____________________________________

How many of these factors have affected the Madison congregation? I will not mention the obvious again, but there is one factor that’s worth your consideration. Is the main reason why the elders at Madison refuse or are unable to solve the still-controversial “Praise Team” issue and the heavy concentration on the “Worship Ministry” [unheard of in the New Testament apostolic age—perhaps “Worship Ministry” is the apostleship replacement in the contemporary world] is that of the “shifting from elder-led to ministerial staff-led church[…]” factor? (Sorry about the long-winded question—please reread the question.)

In other words, who rules [at] the Madison congregation?

Donnie

 
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Jimmy Joe
(no login)
12.41.112.201

Choose words more carefully

November 4 2005, 4:55 PM 

To rule: power or mode of directing; authority; to govern; to decide authoritatively.

To lead: to show the way; to guide; to direct.

To provide one answer to your question I don't believe there are any rulers at Madison. I believe there is an eldership that leads. Therefore, one may follow or freely go in another direction.

And now I have a question: There is a continous reference to Romans concerning mark and avoid. Donnie, I see that you mark most prevalent yet you don't seem to avoid. Why just practice half of a command?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
70.157.44.168

Re: Choose words more carefully

November 4 2005, 9:58 PM 

Jimmy Joe,

Thanks for your post and for asking.

I thought I had chosen my words very carefully. In fact, this is what my Bible says about the elders:

    I Timothy 3—“[1] … If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. [2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)” [KJV] (The American Standard Version, as well as other translations, uses the word “rule.” If the Contemporary English Version is preferred, “control” or “in control” is used.)

    I Timothy 5:[17] Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.” [KJV]


I think I know why you prefer the word “lead” to the word “rule.” The N.I.V. does not translate the word “rule” unless it is in reference to other than the elders. And speaking of translations—which is another issue listed above—the N.I.V. (New International [per]Version) that the “leaders” have chosen as Madison’s official version in public reading and in Bible classes [whenever Rick Warren’s “purpose-driven” manual is not used], the translated word is “manage” as in “managing” his own house well:

    I Timothy 3: “1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?)” [N.I.V.]

However, you brought up a good point regarding an “eldership” that does not “rule” but rather “leads.” Isn’t there a possibility that this form of leadership is not strong enough so that it just allows “other leaders” to lead instead? That in itself is a problem, isn’t it? For example, when the self-titled musical “Worship Leader” is permitted to do his OWN THINGY, including his Praise Team-dominated performances, even when that THINGY is objectionable to many and is not well-received, it is obviously a weakness in such form of leadership.

By the way, the expression to “mark and avoid’ is in reference to those who “cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned…” (Romans 16:17). To “avoid them” does not refer to avoiding the congregation or its members. I KNOW those whom I “mark and avoid.”

Donnie

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
65.1.201.77

The Jolly-Clappy-Wiggly-Waggy Musical “Worship Leader”

November 10 2005, 7:49 AM 

On November 6, the “musical worship” concert portion of the “contemporary” assembly began with “Leaning on the Everlasting Arms” (#394). [#394 means that it is from a hymnbook—in contrast to “notebook #” something.] Wow! A hymn … hmmm!

Not so fast. When the program indicates the names of Keith Lancaster, Steve Smith & Jonas Weathers (along with the 16-member Praise Team), then, one would suspect that it’s SHOWTIME with the overpowered “congregational” singing in the background!

(Sidenote: The “Worship Ministry,” I’m sure, experiments with a number of things to ensure that performances are at their best. As far as I know, Keith’s musicians, still with their microphones—these are necessary in order to perform—do not wear their “choir” uniforms. Nor are they on stage [not yet] facing the congregation. The seating arrangement—the staff members tried it across two rows side by side, and now have gone to the front two rows, one in front of the other.)


To be continued…

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
70.149.128.125

For he’s a jolly clappy-wiggly-waggy musical fellow

November 11 2005, 8:14 PM 

Another song—“So won’t you sign me up, sign me up for the Christian Jubilee. Oh, won’t you write my name, put it on the roll, ‘cause I’ve been changed….” [‘cause? … is this baby talk or contemporary English?]

Yet another song—“Days of Elijah”; although it is a song about Old Testament characters—Elijah, Moses, Ezekiel, David [and that’s fine]—it is a musical piece turned into a musical EXERCISE so that the professional performers can repeat a line 15 or so times without messing up. Here’s the line repeated so many times with the notes (do re mi) appended to give you an idea of how this portion is sung [… singing eighth notes at 4/4 time sig. should be pretty close to the original music]:

    There’s no God like Jehovah. [mi mi mi mi mi mi mi mi]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [mi mi mi mi mi mi mi mi]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [re re re re re re re re]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [so so so so so so so so]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [la la la la la la la la]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [so so so so so so so so]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [so so so so so so so so]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [high do do do do do do do do]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [do do do do do do do do]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [do do do do do do do do]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [ti ti ti ti ti ti ti ti ti]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [high mi mi mi mi mi mi mi mi]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [high fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa]
    There’s no God like Jehovah! [high mi mi mi mi mi mi mi mi]

“Don’t Be Afraid” was being sung while the children age 2-4th grade leave the rest of the family to go to “Canaan’s Land” for THEIR OWN WORSHIP “service.” [Which is worse: splitting the congregation into “traditional” vs. “contemporary” … OR segregating the precious little ones from their parents and other members of the family for some advanced community church indoctrination?]

You must be informed that “Don’t Be Afraid” actually has some musical “instruction” to know exactly when to perform “Clap Clap.” I kid you not. It’s written by no other than the jolly “clappy” music fellow—Keith Lancaster (see notebook #133). So, it goes like this: “Be strong and courageous and do not be afraid. [Clap Clap].” The musical piece also has other “sound effects”—the other instructions are: “V1, Chorus, V2, Chorus, mod up 1 whole step … repeat V1, repeat Chorus 3 times (softer each time).” If you’re having trouble grasping the visual and sound effects, don’t worry, it’s a part of the programmed musical worship.

Donnie

 
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kent
(no login)
66.189.13.108

Re: For he’s a jolly clappy-wiggly-waggy musical fellow

November 12 2005, 9:17 AM 

nobody cares donnie.

If you dont like it, for god sake just go to granny white or someplace else. You are going to stroke out over this stuff my friend. I bet your blood pressure is 400!
Chill dude.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
70.157.41.81

Go someplace else

November 12 2005, 1:44 PM 

Kent,

That’s what the musical Worship Leader thinks—that nobody cares. I call it self-deception or in a state of denial. That nobody cares is wishful thinking. Folks are still leaving, you know.

If you like it, then, come to Madison or return to the congregation or church that you left several years ago.

There is no risk in informing other folks and other congregations that implementing unnecessary and controversial changes by force against the will of the majority of the members, thus, causing a religious riot and splitting the congregation, is just not worth it. By the way, my blood pressure is just fine. What about yours? It appears that my informing others is pretty upsetting to you.

I see you’re showing interest in what’s going on. The information is actually for congregations who have not yet been infiltrated and infected with the disease. But you’re free to read and observe.

Donnie

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
70.157.41.81

For he’s a jolly clappy-wiggly-waggy musical fellow

November 13 2005, 2:55 AM 

If you are interested in bragging, overrating or entertaining self, this is the perfect self-praise song for you—“I Belong to Jesus.” This was sung prior to the sermon. Although there’s no instruction on the sheet music when to clap, I can assure you that RHYTHMIC clapping begins as soon as the line “I belong to Jesus” is uttered. This charismatic music

http://www.vineyardonline.com/shopsmart/cart.cgi?PRODUCT=000768172629&SPD=TPU28270053yrds

… claims that Satan has been defeated and powerless; therefore, now “I belong to Jesus, FREE FROM SIN … I belong to Him, People WE ARE FREE FROM SIN Keith Lancaster, you must be joking … right? You even got Kim Barnes [the “pulpit minister’s” wife] all excited! She was just rhythmically clapping away, lifting up [men’s ] “holy hands” (I Tim. 2:8), and swaying to the music and even at your cue applauding after the charismatic music ended.

Then, there was the message about “giving”—such a “deep” topic to remind the attendants about the upcoming Thanksgiving obligation (collection). See the Madison Marcher (http://www.madisoncofc.org/Marcher/pdfs/11-02-05.pdf). The goal is $400,000 to help defray the debt incurred during the massive Vision 2000 construction program. You see, after the mass exodus of loyal charitable, giving and supportive brethren during the church upheaval, it has not been the same financially for Madison. Plus, the church has to deal with high salaries and expenses related to the culture-driven WORSHIP “MINISTRY”—this is a sad misuse of the saints’ collection.

One more song to let you know about—the closing music “We Will Stand.” The solo performed with the “Ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh” in the background; then, “You’re my brother, you’re my sister, so take me by the hand….”

I’m not sure at this point if the two MEN who earlier were performing while facing the congregation with handheld microphones were still co-leading with Keith Lancaster and the Praise Team WOMEN and men.

Donnie

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
70.157.43.236

When the slick maneuver is in its best behavior….

November 14 2005, 8:14 AM 

During occasions when those who have left Madison may be visiting, such as in “campaigns” to have an annual “church family” fellowship or Thanksgiving collection (on November 13, 2005) to help pay off the Vision 2000 building project debt, it never fails that the “contemporary” assembly would include more sing-able hymns in the “worship” program.

    “O Lord, Our Lord”
    “All Creatures of Our God and King”
    “Holy, Holy, Holy”

Oops! I thought there were more. Maybe, “God Bless America” counts—it was sung. By the way, I’m not sure if Mr. Keith even realizes that in “Holy, Holy, Holy” in our church hymns, the expression “God in three persons, blessed Trinity” has been corrected and replaced with the expression “God overall, and blest eternally.” No, no, no … I seriously doubt it.

That’s not to say that there were no contemporary music pieces. Yes, peaceful and more reverent songs there were. Songs that would not induce rhythmic clapping! Actually, there were attempts by song clappers to do so regardless of the occasion, but the clapping was “timid” and experienced death on its own accord—thank you, Lord. This proves that if only the Musical Worship Leader would continue to do this … can you imagine [you fill in the blanks…]? You see, when Mark or Kevin or someone else leads, hardly any clapping there is.

Yes, the 16-member Praise Team staff, while seated in the two front rows in disguise [meaning not on stage], still each has his or HER handheld microphone [cannot be “hidden”], co-leading with the Master Professional Musician. It’s about time for the microphones to get “dunked” in the baptistery for their eternal death and burial, but not to be resurrected again. Such action may just help keep souls from going to hell.

Donnie

 
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PPB
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Re: When the slick maneuver is in its best behavior….

November 14 2005, 12:00 PM 

Donnie,

Are you telling me that there are actually 16 members of a praise team at Madison? I thought the whole reason that these c of C's allowed praise teams was to "help" members that didn't read music to hear their individual part. How can one do that with a choir?

16 members is larger than most church choirs. As a school choir member, I always knew that was the weakest of excuses as you can't hear the individual part with four members singing at one time.

So, Madison has a choir? Do they dance and clap as they sing? Wow. A show! How entertaining that must be. To think, the 1st Century Christians refused to behave in such a manner as it was paganistic and against God's commands (per their own letters). The Apostles must have been such fuddy duddies. How Madison must laugh at the Apostles and their old-fashion, boring beliefs.

If there was nothing wrong with clapping and acting so "filled with the spirit", why did the clapping die down when other members were attending? Embarrassed, quilty? Both?

Keep up the work! Someone will hear the Truth.

 
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Donnie Cruz
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The Slick Maneuver

November 15 2005, 8:17 AM 

PPB,

It didn’t cross my mind why the flag was displayed this Sunday. I just thought … what’s next—the statue of the Virgin Mary? I’m looking at the musical “worship” guide, and the top line says, “Veterans Recognition” [by Phil Barnes]. Besides the “thanksgiving” offering for the building debt (since the church upheaval when many alienated brethren left), the other “special” occasion was the “Veterans Day” thingy.

Well, someone wrote:

    “I don't know if you were able to be at services when they began. It began with an instrumental and vocal version of GOD BLESS THE USA, complete with clappers that stood at the appropriate times and started clapping again at different times during the song. It was accompanied by a slide show of military personnel, and then veterans that were in the assembly were introduced at its conclusion. More cheap emotionalism….”

In regard to clapping, I have felt many times that rhythmic clapping is experiencing a slow death at Madison (and probably so somewhere else where this has become part of the “beliefs and practices”). Substitute song leaders usually do not have this clapping issue. It is Mr. Keith, the musical “Worship Leader,” who leads in this extracurricular activity. He is the one that selects the music that makes you wanna sway and dance. [I wasn’t supposed to be watching other folks do their thingy …, but I saw Mr. Barnes swaying to the music and clapping with the left hand holding the Bible—though not as charismatically as his wife Kim does. And this must have been during the singing of “That’s Why We Praise Him [notebook #87]” or “God Has Smiled On Me [notebook #64].”

Yes, indeed, the choir has 16 members. However, do not call it a “choir”—the “traditional” folks might get offended … “they” say. It is the Praise Team [a.k.a. God’s singers?].


… to be continued

 
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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
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120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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