Re: The Slick Maneuver
|November 15 2005, 4:14 PM |
i want BCV where claping in worship is a sin that will send you str8 to hellfire.
And dont give me some bull about jews in the old testement clapping and hissing. We are not to use the OT as an example, right? And Ken, please restain yourself from posting another missive that is unintelligable, ok? Can you do that?
PPB, are you for real, or are you just play acting here Nobody can be as rigid as you. Pull that stick out.
edit that last sentence donnie and your a coward of the 1st order!
Re: Re: The Slick Maneuver
|November 16 2005, 8:44 AM |
Your very last statement could have been edited out and nobody would have known about the 1st order!
or, for that matter, your entire post which is of little or no value. Well, actually, the reader should know about your representation of the other side. Thats why it is posted.
Ill try my best to respond to your statements as follows:
So, Kent, what can we really learn from you?
- Name the title and date of any post of mine that states that clapping in worship is a sin;
- I would ask you to re-read my comment on what might help keep souls from going to hell;
- The bull you mentioned may have been used in OT sacrifices [the blood of bulls and goats];
- It is good to know of your awareness of clapping and hissing in the OT;
- The Old Testament is historyit is there for our learningthere are eternal principles applicable in Christian living and there are many practices that are no longer applicable [just see if youre interested in offering animal sacrifices and farm products];
- Ken is very intelligent and a scholaryou could be the problemjust send him the restraining order and see if he abides by it;
- PPB has standards and goals; her respect for Gods truth, her knowledge of the Scriptures, her extensive research and factsall that is very commendablewe all can learn from each other.
|November 15 2005, 4:24 PM |
I find myself a little annoyed when Veterans Day is refered to as a thingy. I do not know if your a veteran or not. I am a veteran of the Vietnam War, my father is a veteran of WWII and Korea and my uncle was killed in the Phillipines in May of 1945. If not for the American military you and I would likely be posting in German or Japanese. Most of the time I ignore your slurs but this time I find it very condescending.
I usually find it easier to converse verbally, therefore I intend to greet you graciously and kindly at the next Madison service that we attend together. I know who you are but you only know me from these post. Although I find little that we agree on there is nothing wrong to agreeably disagree.
|November 16 2005, 8:47 AM |
Im sorry that my reference to the thingy offended you. Believe me; I have deep respect for anyone who has served his country. I think you misunderstood the context of my remark. Veterans Day was on Friday, and the nation observed the holiday and remembered the great service of the brave men and women. One point I was trying to make was that special occasions and holidays have their own appropriate times and places in society. The bigger point is related to clapping in the assembly of the saints, the purpose of which is to commemorate Christs suffering and death on the cross and to study His wordteaching and admonishing one another. We applaud when theres a great performance, when we are entertained. I think weve reached a point of saturation [however than means] when the Worship Leader prompts the audience to clap while singing psalms [in written form as in a poem], hymns and spiritual songs and prompts the audience to APPLAUD for several seconds after the song ends. The preacher enjoys the applause in the middle of his delivery of Gods message.
Yes, I will be glad to meet you the next chance we get, although Im a little surprised to hear you say that you find little that we agree on. Does little mean less than 20% when we study the same Bible, when we attend the same gathering, when Im not saying or teaching anything new that we havent already learned in the past? Something to think about, maybe, why such a disparity in our beliefs
Re: The Slick Maneuver
|November 15 2005, 4:59 PM |
Wayne Jackson makes a statement regarding solos in the church in his article "Are Choirs and Solos Authorized for the Church Assembly?"
Christian Courier: Archives
Thursday, September 21, 2000
I find his logical and grammatically correct interpretation of Paul's verses to be one of the best around (other than the one's printed on this site, of course!). He states it so much better than I ever could:
"Historically, it has been quite evident to most Bible students that the type of music authorized for church assemblies by the New Testament Scriptures is that of congregational singing.
And be not drunken with wine, wherein is riot, but be filled with the Spirit; speaking one to another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord (Ephesians 5:18,19 ASV).
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts unto God (Colossians 3:16 ASV).
There are several important things here. First, the language of these verses is such that it involves a plurality of individuals, entire congregations, in the obligations enjoined. The imperatives, be filled, and let dwell, along with the explanatory plural participles, speaking, singing, making melody, teaching, etc., indicate the activity of the church as a whole, rather than individual action, or that of a small portion of the church, as suggested by the solo/choral arrangement.
Second, the terms heautois (one to another Ephesians 5:19) and heautou (one another Colossians 3:16) are grammatically classified as reciprocal, reflexive pronouns.
According to noted grammarians Dana and Mantey (131), such a usage, as in the contexts under consideration, represents an interchange of action in the verbs employed.
J.B. Lightfoot (219) has noted that the reflexive nature of these pronouns emphasizes the idea of corporate unity. When the church as a whole sings, there is speaking one to another; when one group is active (the choir), and another group is passive (the listening audience), there is no interchange of action.
Choir and solo music does not fulfill the requirements of these contexts. Godet affirms that Ephesians 5:18ff and Colossians 3:16 refer to hymns that are sung by the whole Church (281).
Third, the participles speaking, singing, etc., explain the manner of implementing the imperatives (commands) be filled and let dwell.
Consequently, if one group (the chorus) may sing and praise God for another group (the audience), that is equivalent to arguing that one group may be filled with the Spirit for another, or the choir may let [the word] dwell in them as representatives for the balance of the congregation..."
The Slick ManeuverContinued
|November 16 2005, 8:54 AM |
Lets see what I can express in a few minutes as promised. It appears that I may have covered some of it in my responses to Kent and Jimmy Joe.
The additional info I have is from this e-mail:
God Bless [the U S A] was a recorded song, complete with an entire band
the flag was dropped during its playing. So each week they up the ante. How do we top last week?You know, I had said something:
The elders just dont get it. Or, they do but are not troubled by the consequences?
I find the following statements from the respondent very interesting and truthful:
Power is a dangerous thing. In the hands of the wrong people, it corrupts even the best of us. They aren't bad men, just misguided. The backslaps are affirming and so it goes on and on. They fail to see how manipulated the membership (including them) is. At the root of this is an ignorance. The membership is biblically ignorant, and so, like sheep, are led astray. They want to feel good, and so they find those feelings in a worship assembly."What a powerful and fair assessment of whats really happening. The slick maneuvers continue. So, what else can I say except that, yes, there are really 16 members of the Contemporary Praise Team (hmmm, C.P.T.). It means 16 handheld microphones!!! It means that God doesnt need a hearing aid anymore. The count of 16 men AND WOMEN WHO CO-LEAD with the Musical Worship Leader does not include 2 or 3 more men co-leaders (also with their own handheld microphones) facing the congregation. The count does not include the soloist Kevin at times when needed for a complete performance. The count does not include OTHER Praise Teams for other services rendered. I wouldnt be surprised if there were praise team singers scattered in the earlier (8:00am) department or division called traditional service. Scattered
so they wouldnt be noticed
. What else could it be when the traditional division is also exposed to several mild Christian rock contemporary music. Hmmm?
help with the singing? Help is a defense mechanism in sheeps clothing. How else did Christians overcome the need for help in the past when the congregation just followed along when a new song was led? Dont we miss the old-time UNREHEARSED events in the assembly? By the way, if that was honestly the help needed, it is no longer needed. Four or five years of worship rehearsal sounds exhausting to me. Well, please dont get me started on the performance thingy.
The program was a bit confusing in regard to the Communion [by Phil Barnes] and the Message titled Suppertime [by Phil Barnes]. The Communion started out with the movie clip describing a family at suppertime. [I dont have time to explain this except to say that at first the scenario gave me the impression that the leadership is up to somethingperhaps a little suggestion that the Lords Supper is related to the family supper and that there may come a time when it will no longer be breaking the bread that weve done for so long and the little cups
BUT A REAL MEAL: (1) to commemorate not only the Lords suffering and death but ALSO his resurrection and (2) to consider it [the BIG MEAL] as a means to FELLOWSHIP with other Christians. Im sorry in advance if my suspicion is mere speculation. Anyway, I was wondering why Phil was exceedingly loquacious for several minutes before the communion. If I had known that was the sermon, I would have taken some notes as I normally do. So, the communion was served [no women serving yet like at Rubel Shellys Woodmont Hills Family of God Church (I think) as the clip showed the mother serving (such as passing the bread, etc., to) the rest of the family.
Well see what else unfolds at Madison in the future.
Re: When the slick maneuver is in its best behavior
|November 16 2005, 6:35 AM |
You mentioned "the 16-member Praise Team staff." Are you trying to mislead people that the Praise Team is part of the "paid staff?" That's how it looks to me.
It isn't true, of course.
Re: Re: When the slick maneuver...
|November 16 2005, 8:38 AM |
I think some of the other staff members of the Worship Ministry [ ], besides Mr. Keith, are paid. No, I dont believe that the Praise Team members are paid for their professionally rehearsed worship services.
Re: Re: When the slick maneuver...
|November 17 2005, 5:27 AM |
...and there are 16 now? There were only 8 when I was there.
Re: Re: Re: When the slick maneuver...
|November 17 2005, 11:13 PM |
You seemed very surprised. Yes, there are 16 now. I was informed just recently by someone who now attends another congregation. Accordingly, that was the plan when this fellow Christian left Madison about a year ago. This info was confirmed by another respondent soon after thatthat it is currently 16. So, I noticed this past Sunday on my way out the building there were 16 men and WOMEN [co-leaders] who were still busy performing their after-service extra curricular activities and entertaining with their handheld microphones while folks were leaving the premises.
The reason why I didnt notice the difference between the 8-member and the 16-member choir groups was due to the loudness of the team. When there were eight, their sound engineers [accordingly] had the sound system rigged up where it would sound as though it was like listening to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir [now
Im just making up the Mormon stuff to illustrate the point]. Do you get my point? The 8-member team was so loud and overpowering to begin with that congregational singing could not (and still cannot) be heard up in the balcony at least. My observation is that congregational singing is not like it used to be prior to the Praise Team era. Why should it be, when the professional singers are singing to and for the congregation anyway?
Re: Re: Re: Re: When the slick maneuver...
|November 19 2005, 3:31 PM |
So easy to forget my intended key point earlier! I may have already mentioned this, but the Praise Team has long outlived its claimed design and purpose, that WAS, to help with the congregational singing. Its been how many years since the discord-causing Praise Teams professional services were implemented? 2001? How many contemporary Christian rock music pieces have yet to be learned? I guess, the answer to that would beas many as the Christian Rock artists can produce and be on the top charts.
The conclusion is that even if [but it is] the Praise Team with its performance-loaded services werent a discord-sowing entity, it is no longer needed. The truth is that it was never needed in the first place. It is NOW a performing bunch. It has replaced congregational singing.
The assembly of the saints that was originally a school of the Bible where disciples of Christ should meet, study Gods Word and teach and admonish one another has turned into a theatrical gathering where the saints are indoctrinated to enjoy holy entertainment and to disregard the truth that when the saints gather in Gods presence, reverence and awe Jehovah expectsnot cheerleading and making each other feel good about musical entertainment!!!!!!!!!!!!
|November 17 2005, 11:03 PM |
A "normal" working man can lead the singing and many could do a good job.
Therefore, isn't most of Keith's salary and other supporting "ministries" spent concocting tunes, programming and rehearsing and training? I suspect that lighting, sound system etc, etc, etc can be logged against the Teamsters.
Congregational Singing [at Madison]
|December 12 2005, 7:51 AM |
DECONSTRUCTING A CAPPELLA, CONGREGATIONAL SINGING
For a century and a half our brethren have striven to improve and refine our a cappella singing. Men with fine musical training and Biblical knowledge edited excellent, scripturally sound hymnals. We taught our members to sight read and sing four-part harmony. We trained our song leaders to pitch their selections correctly and properly count the time. We instructed them how to choose their selections and coordinate them with the lesson of the hour. We had singing schools and practice sessions so we might teach and admonish one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs and sing with grace in our hearts (Col. 3:16).
In days past, our religious neighbors often visited out assemblies and were impressed with our ability to sing the lovely hymns of praise to Jehovah in a way that thrilled those present. Often they commented positively on the quality and uplifting nature of the singing.
Now a fad is sweeping through our churches. Some have borrowed from their neighbors the practice of projecting the words of their hymns on screens before the congregation. In a recent service in a large congregation using such equipment, I observed the following:
The hymns of the church should be a tie that binds the old and the young of the church together. Today I recall my mother singing, Farther Along and The Old Rugged Cross and other sweet hymns while rocking her babies to sleep. I remember my grandfather who was an elder, singing the great hymns of Zion. But the campfire songs, known and loved by the young, are unknown by senior members of the church. Rather than being a unifying experience, they create a chasm between these vital elements of the congregation.
- Of the nine songs sung, only two were traditional hymns known by all. Seven were choruses popular within youth camps and devotions.
- The words of songs were projected without musical scores or notations.
- While each pew had an ample supply of hymnals, the numbers were not announced nor posted.
- Therefore, many of the older members sat observing while those who knew the melodies sang for them.
- The youth devotional songs were difficult to sing with their unique variations and rhythms. Teens and young adults knew them; most of those above 50 did not.
- The song leader had a good voice and knew how to pitch and lead the songs properly. Rather than stand on the podium where he could be seen by all and direct them, he chose to stand on the floor with his praise team and only those in the first few rows could see his hands.
We do not say that projecting the words on a screen is wrong. Really it is no different than each having the words printed in a book. Hymns are not wrong because they are new or preferred by the young. It is the combination of the all the above that is detrimental to the singing of the church.
It is no wonder that promoters of such programs need a praise team to take up the slack and supply that which has lost from our congregational singing. Very likely some will eventually have a choir to provide the quality singing they desire. Still, others will feel the need to bring in a musician and an instrument to make up the difference. An acorn planted eventually becomes an oak, but a weed seed will grow into a noxious weed. Seeds of change will eventually produce their unwelcome fruit. JHW
It does not cease to astonish us that Christians generally, and preachers especially are now holding views and making arguments that we opposed and refuted when advanced by denominationalism
fifty and a hundred years ago. Like Paul we (must) declare again the gospel which we preached. (G. C. Brewer)
CHRISTIANITY: THEN AND NOW
John Waddey, Editor
Vol. 5, Number 4, December 1, 2005
get a life donnie
|December 12 2005, 11:05 PM |
geez....you are STILL on here spilling out your vitriol, slamming the "church". You need to find more hobbies in your life! The times ALWAYS change. I remember when the Stamps-Baxter songs were put down because they were "new". The youth today DO NOT identify with the old hymns. The church needs to connect with EVERYONE. There is nothing wrong with mixing a few hymns in with mostly new stuff. IF all you got is the "these new songs are killing the church"...then you got to get a new game. Your existing one is really OLD.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
RE: Get a Life
|December 13 2005, 11:34 AM |
Concerned Members: "Thus saith the Lord..."
Detractors: "Get a life!"
Concerned Members: "The Bible says..."
Detractors: "Take a flying leap off a tall building!"
Concerned Members: "Do not preach a different doctrine or change the church to make it more like the world. See 1 John 2:15-17, 2 John 9-11, and James 4:4 (KJV)."
Times change, but the Word of God, the New Testament, does not change with the times. People change the Word of God to make it fit with the times, when the times fail to heed the commands of the New Testament.
Should the church "connect" with everyone? Instead, how about everyone becoming obedient and submitting themselves to the commands of Christ, so that everyone connects with the church? The Word of God, as upheld by the church, is the standard for all to follow, regardless of the "times" and the generations.
"New stuff?" Nothing wrong with it, as long as the "new" doesn't reflect the trends and culture of a worldly society. For example, tacking "Christian" lyrics onto rock music will hardly hallow the rock music. The latter has a long, significant history of being associated with sex, drugs, violence, and rebellion. As far as worship and the church are concerned, stay away from that which is culture-oriented and adhere to that which is New Testament-oriented.
Re: RE: Get a Life
|December 13 2005, 1:54 PM |
This post has been moved to "The Viper's Den."
|This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 184.108.40.206 on Dec 13, 2005 9:12 PM|
The Christmas Tradition at Madison
|December 21 2005, 7:38 AM |
During the last three Sundays, the contemporary division (not to be confused with the early assembly [at 8:00] distinctively labeled by the contemporaries as traditionalthe other division), the contemporary Musical Worship Leader, Mr. Keith Lancaster, changed the tradition by leading/performing contemporary Christian music only. O.K., its perhaps an improvement over the Madison tradition of singing Christmas songs in the assembly but only in December.
In regard to the Christmas songs, some of these have great messages in that while proclaiming the birth of Christ [and it doesnt stop there], we sing about the Lord is come, the King, the Savior. Thats why in the olden days, we would sing some of these songs throughout the yearnothing wrong with that. Interestingly, the 8:00 assembly was led to sing Joy to the World this past Sundayrather odd, since the contemporary division has not sung any Christmas song this month
not one Christmas song in the contemporary division of the church in the past three Sundays???? [Ill check the worship guide for each Sunday to ensure this has been accurately stated.] But it remains to be seen, since there is going to be a union effort this coming Sundaythere will be a combined assembly at 10:00 of both the traditional and the contemporary divisions [perhaps departments would be another way to look at it ]. Is the union [not to be confused with unity] going to sing or celebrate by singing Christmassongs? Again, the union might behave as usual in combined assemblies in which the contemporaries do try very hard NOT to offend others. And in this case
by not doing something Christmassy! Hmmm!
Whether or not the attempt at this union is endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace (Eph. 4:3) or whether it is [again] an attempt to conform to the scheme of some of the mega Community Churches which have altogether cancelled their worship services on December 25 for whatever reason(s)
you be the judge.
no singing of Christmas songs in the contemporary assembly in December? Seems odd? However, there has been a new added feature in the December celebrationthe drama titled A Christian Carol (Come enjoy this new adaptation of Charles Dickens classic, A Christmas Carol.). [Please note the words Christian and Christmas.]. It was performed first this past Saturday; the final performance was on Sunday at 7 p.m.
Final reminder: In the last several weeks, in times when the big white screen is at rest, the following message is displayed: The Family at Madison Church of Christ
Watch out!!! This reminds me of Woodmont Hills Family of God or Otter Creek: a Family of Faith or just plain Oak Hills Church [formerly of Christ] or ___________ Community Church: a Church of Christ or whatever.
The Contemporary Musical Worship Assembly on Its Best Behavior
|December 26 2005, 5:58 PM |
The First Worship program usually occupies the front of the 4-page guide. But this time (Dec. 25, 2005), it was the silhouette picture of Mary and Joseph and the baby Jesus in the cradle titled, Behold Your King bolded.
A line with date and time on the back page is normally formatted, e.g., as follows:
December 25, 2005 . . . . . . Second Worship . . . . . . 10:30 amBut on Christmas Day, the contemporary worship guide listed the following information on page 4:
December 25, 2005, 10 a.m.A few Christmas songs!!! No new surprises there. Some of the songs, although originally written from not-entirely-biblical perspectives, do contain some essential messages concerning the Savior and the King and mans need for redemption. One striking difference, however, is that in times past during the holiday season, there wouldnt be an instance in sermons delivered in which the physical birth of Jesus was briefly mentioned leading up to the point wherein his suffering and death on the cross was the stronger emphasis. In addition, these Christmas songs would be sung throughout the yearnot just around Christmasan indication that in the gathering of the saints, the celebration of the pagan- and Roman-Catholic-Church-originated Christmas observance was NOT being conformed to. Instead, while the secular and the somewhat-pagan-influenced religious world was in observance of Christmas, churches of Christ [and some of the non-conforming religious groups] adhered to the New Testament principle and teaching that Christs shedding of blood on the cross of Calvarynot his physical birthwas and is the driving force that leads mankind to repentance and salvation.
Silent Night #577 . . . . . . . . . . . . . Keith Lancaster
Reading: Matthew 1:18-25 . . . . . . . . Keith E. Hall
Angels We Have Heard On High
Hark The Herald Angels Sing #202
Prayer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Pat Burch
O Come All Ye Faithful #464
Communion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Terry Ashley
Contribution. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Ashley
Why Did My Savior Come To Earth? #784
I Stand In Awe (notebook) #16
Great Are You Lord (notebook) #9
Beautiful Star of Bethlehem
Message: Behold Your King. . . . . . . Phil Barnes
Theres Not a Friend #680
Shepherds Prayer . . . . . . . . . . . . Chris Gingles
Joy To The World #376
Yes, punctuation marks and other per Worship Ministry guidelines similar to how stuff on the sacred big wide screens should be displayed were followed. [And, yes, there is a ministry called Worship Ministry in Saddleback Community Churchs Pastor Rick Warrens new and improved New Testament manual.]
In todays alliance with secularism and the dictates of the post-modern/contemporary religion-ism, certain ones among churches of Christ (feel free to fill in the blanks with names of mega Community Churches in the brotherhood), do now observe Christmas. In the sermon by Phil Barnes, while his message was laced with personal and other stories of experiences [as usual] to entertain and make the audience laugh, much time was expended on the physical aspects surrounding the physical birth. If there were many non-members in the crowd, the opportunity to explain and express Gods plan of salvation was lost. Just because the name of Jesus and some other religious terms were mentioned here and thereas it is now the NORM in todays [contemporary] gatheringsthat just would NOT do the job and could not be equated with Gods command to REPENT and BE BAPTIZED SO THAT the blood of the Lamb will WASH AWAY ones sins and be added to the Lords church. The gospel of Christ is now diluted and deluded.
Even during the observance of the Lords Supperfollowing guidelines of the Worship Ministry to have to deliver a man-contrived message [usually an earthly story or experience] prior to partaking of the bread and the cupthe presiding elder had to pose a question or questions that led some in the audience to react with a chuckle or whatever. I thought that the emblematic significance of the observance somewhat dissipated. Fortunately, for the sake of the senior folks who would generally be offended by it, there was no leading solo by a female vocalist on the Praise Team of a Communion song. There was no humming. There was no o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-ing, either, during the commemoration of the Lords suffering and death. Just wishing that the presiding elder, in an attempt to illustrate the Saviors love, had not asked one of a number of questions, such as, What would you have done for me [the elder] had you seen me [the elder] about to be run over while crossing the street?
Oh, yes, the contemporary program had to throw in at least a couple of hymns to pacify the visiting folks from the traditional group. The rule at 10:30 has been to sing [perform music] mostly Contemporary Christian hits. Yeah, include a hymn once-in-a-while so that its NOT completely contemporary
be sure that the selected hymnjust as many of the contemporary musical pieces arewould be very difficult to sing. And, yes, an opportunity for the elite Praise Teamthe Musical Worship Leaders performers to really shine and be musically entertaining.
This is getting somewhat extensive and boring, perhaps. Let me just state that this gathering was really a combined assembly. The usual time for the contemporary group is at 10:30 a.m.not at 8:00 a.m. You decide whether or not this attempt was to conform to the decision by some mega churches (like Otter Creek Community Church) to cancel worship services on Christmas Day in the year 2005 or to cancel all Bible classes and meet only for worship, as in Madisons case. At Madison, the combined gathering was at 10:00 a.m.a time closer to the contemporary hour, instead of at 8:30 a.m. So, this might have been a situation in which the smaller traditional group was being invited to assemble with the dominant contemporary group. Hmmm! Hmmm! Hmmm!
At any rate, the Musical Worship Leader was in his best behavior. And so was his elite group of musical singers. Whether or not the 16-member choir (Praise Team) members were scattered in the audience or still seated in the two front rows, there was only a slight evidence of performances. Slightin the sense that AFTER the first verse [you know
when the other verses are not that familiar to everyone else], of certain songs, such as Angels We Have Heard on High or Beautiful Star of Bethlehem, the elite team dominated the singing. Of course, with the help of unfamiliar lines displayed on the screen!
Now, Keith behaved pretty well. Not much of the wagging of arms from-east-to-west; no antics; no coaching, prompt or cue to the young people or the audience for a big applause after making a joyful noise; no programmed, rehearsed joy of rhythmic clapping during singing [obviously since there was not a song to clap to]; no solo; no unintelligible sounds to accompany the singing; no mourning that God turned into dancing; no swaying to the music; no feigned looking up above to offer a short prayer after a performance. There was some unnecessary interjection of expressions by the worship leader in between music lines.
ABOVE ALL, the Praise Team musicians had their microphones hidden, perhaps, behind the baptistery [this one, I concede, is made up]. It was a serious attempt on the part of the Worship Ministers NOT to offend the invited guests! After all, UNITY of the divided groups was the underlying objective. In fact, an elder once again declared: Look at the manifestation of unity in the bond of peace
we are witnessing [numerical] growth in attendance; the Lord has blessed us [as evidenced] in our financial contributions
Know what? The goal of some $67,000 prior to the upheaval in 2001 [and what it should be now taking into consideration the rate of inflation] has not been/is not being met in recent years. Contributions have been around $39,000 on the averagemaybe a little more than that.
Know what? The combined attendance on this December 25, 2005 did not appear to have exceeded the usual attendance AT the 10:30 assembly ALONE in previous years. This is judging on the seating capacity in the balcony. In years past, the balcony in ONE ASSEMBLY ALONE [at 10:30 when it was traditional] would be full of attendants. This time, there were still several rows of empty pews in the back of the balcony.
Conclusion: If the Musical Worship Leader and his Praise Team in instances like this were on their best behavior, shouldnt they be able to continue this example format at other timesif the church leaders are really, really interested in the UNITYNOT UNIONof members in the spirit and in the bond of peace? Also
there was a celebration of Christmas in a SUBTLE way.
Correction to "... Its Best Behavior"
|December 27 2005, 1:32 AM |
A minor correction: I mentioned Otter Creek Community Church as having canceled its worship services on Christmas Dayit should state Bill Hybels Willow Creek Community Church. Sorry about em Hills and Creekstheyre confusing at times.
Re: Correction to "... Its Best Behavior"
|December 27 2005, 9:21 AM |
Besides that error in fact that Otter Creek is not a Community Church...