February 2001

Most Madison Church of Christ members were oblivious to this article, “More Holyroller Influence at Madison” in the February "Plumbline Newsletter" which quotes the "Madison Marcher.”

The third worship service at Madison is to be held at the same time as the 10:30 a.m. worship. The "atmosphere will be more conducive to non-Christians. Many “unchurched” people are intimidated by a more formal atmosphere...." The worship affair will be an effort "...to make it easier for people with no church background to feel comfortable.... More time will be given to singing and communion... The sermons will not be as long as what we are used to. There is no question that God is working among our church family. He recognized our suppressed capacity to love…. Attendance for this first Sunday was 538 souls." Jim Hinkle said, "We will not be still, we will not be quiet."

February 2001

The elders announced that a "Third Contemporary" service that they had previously formed was going to be melted into the 10:00 a.m. or second service.

This announcement established a "contemporary service" at 10:00 AM and the 8:00 AM service remained unchanged. While making this announcement, Elder Buck Dozier said the Fire Marshal’s office had said there were too many people in the third service for the size of the auditorium. Since Buck is the past Fire Chief, one has to wonder if this was just a staged excuse to proceed with what was already planned.

February 25, 2001

Tom Haddon is instructing his "Homebuilders" class on how to transition the church members over to the ways of the Saddleback Community Church and that of "Holy Entertainment." He talks about the well laid plans that only a few know about. See the transcript of February 25th class.

March 2001

Praise teams, hand clapping, and raised hands during prayer have been introduced at the second service. Children’s Sunday school has been changed from Bible-based to more entertainment and singing. Young women teaching Sunday school to baptized young men.

April 13, 2001

The elders respond to a NewsChannel5 report about growing controversy at the Madison Church of Christ. They send out a LETTER to 683 Churches of Christ in the Channel 5 viewing area.

"The controversy seems to be over-reaction to change. The main things we have done in the 10:30 service are introduce more upbeat praise songs, give less time to the sermon, and give greater emphasis to the Lord's Supper. This embraces a more contemporary format, of course, but we don't feel that it departs from scriptural worship."

See ConcernedMembers’ Letter to the Elders of 683 Churches of Christ.

April 22, 2001

In this meeting on April 22, 2001 the deacons ask the elders, “What is going on?” On May 02,2001 the Elders reply in a letter. Here Are the Questions and the Elders’ Answers

May 2001

Concerned members receive a copy of a rough draft of a "Covenant of Membership" that was supposedly written by Elder Buck Dozier. Mr. Dozier admitted "playing" around with one when contacted.

The concern about a "Covenant of Membership" is that it's one of the hallmark signs of a "Community Church" like Saddleback. They are generally written in such a way to assure that the membership can't take over the "community church" like they took over your church.

July 2001

According to THIS ARTICLE in the Tennessean, the elders bring in a mediator (Larry Sullivan) to help with the split within the church. We understand that Buck Dozier met Mr. Sullivan while attending a "seminar." Meetings are set up for the elders—we understand they had to swear to secrecy. Meetings are set up for the members to discuss their objections to the split contemporary and traditional services.

It's later shown by the ConcernedMembers that LARRY SULLIVAN is not an unbiased mediator. He has direct ties to the Saddleback organization. He is trained in using the HEGELIAN DIALECTIC techniques to compromise a groups consensus in whatever direction is predetermined.

Mid-August, 2001

By this time many members have left the Church. The unpaid volunteer minister on this particular Sunday abruptly left before giving his sermon at the second service. He was allowed only the last 6 minutes of worship time by the “worship leader.” Sometime during this period, Buck Dozier appeared in Bill Ruhl's adult class to take over. Bill Ruhl's absence was unexplained to the class.

August 29, 2001

Concerned members send out 2500 ballots and a LETTER asking for church members to indicate on the ballot the type of church service format they wanted. All ballots were to be received by September 20, 2001. Threatening phone calls are received by the contractor hired by ConcernedMembers to do the mailing (August 30, 2001). Other notes not full of brotherly love are received by mail. Ballots from ConcernedMembers mailing are tabulated, and totals posted along with a FINAL REPORT (September 15, 2001)

September 23, 2001

The members have been waiting on an announcement from the elders regarding the future format of services at the Madison Church of Christ. Today (09-23-01) that announcement was made.

EVERYTHING WILL REMAIN AS IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

September 30, 2001 (Sunday)

Larry Sullivan was Guest Speaker! (The Unbiased Mediator)

October 11, 2001 (Thursday)

Deacons had a special meeting with an attendance of over 100 concerned members and deacons. Petitions were given out to collect signatures—to dismiss “the elders that have split the Madison Church of Christ.” Petitions are due to be turned in by Wednesday the 17th.

October 14, 2001 (Sunday)

Frank Scott delivered his first in a series of talking head animated and canned sermons. Sometime during this period, two elders resigned—J.D. Elliott and Bobby McElhiney.

October 17, 2001 (Wednesday)

A member reported that Wednesday night when she inquired at the help desk as to where she should turn in her petitions, she was told by the lady: "Over there with the trouble makers … they are the mafia." Sometime during this period two more elders talked about resigning! No confirmation of that as of today.

October 21, 2001 (Sunday)

Sermon—Second in a three-part series of Frank Scott being a talking head for a canned and animated sermon on joy and entertainment. The words "corporate worship" and joy and entertainment were used extensively. Interesting!

Deacons—The deacons, headed by Ben Jones, nicely and in a very godly way asked the leaders to step down and let the church elect new leadership. (Complete transcript is available.)

October 24, 2001 (Wednesday)

”Elders and Deacons” meeting tonight! We understand that the 7 or 8 elders that have caused a split at Madison Church of Christ have been formally asked to step down or be disfellowshipped.

October 25, 2001 (Thursday)

”Saddleback Planters” meeting tonight! Talked about rebuking Ben Jones Sunday!

To rebuke is to criticize or reprove sharply; to reprimand.
To reprove is to criticize for a fault or misdeed; to scold.
To rebuke or reprove Ben Jones, then, Ben Jones must have done a misdeed.
To define that misdeed, those who will rebuke him must find applicable scriptures.

What Ben did was to give each and every Madison Church of Christ member an opportunity to ask for forgiveness or repentance for causing division or for allowing division to occur.

October 26, 2001 (Friday)

Flash message coming in the next 72 hours from the ConcernedMembers!

October 28, 2001 (Sunday)

T H E...M A D I S O N...C H U R C H...O F...C H R I S T...H A S...B E E N...H I J A C K E D ! !

Today, according to an announcement made by everyone's favorite elder, Russ Kersten, the church has been hijacked by all the concerned members, deacons and I guess that includes the 5 elders that have been holding out against them. … Is “hijack” a chargeable offense in the church?

October 29, 2001 (Monday)

We received a copy of a letter sent to the deacons. And we felt compelled to reply. ConcernedMembers announced future plans (10/30/01). The server for this web page has recorded 22,645 page views since its creation 8 weeks ago (11/1/01).

November 2, 2001

Transcript of Homebuilders Sunday School class—a recording of Tom Haddon on how to transition the congregation to Saddleback and Holy Entertainment in Homebuilders Class (available under Interviews & Transcripts).

November 4, 2001

J.R. Compton and wife, members at Madison Church of Christ for 58 years, came before congregation to ask for forgiveness and ask to have their names removed as members.

November 7, 2001

Interview with Gary McDade of the Getwell Church of Christ in Memphis, TN. Discussion concerning the takeover of churches by the "Community Church" movement and the embracement of this movement by many of the Christian colleges.

November 9, 2001

Two different sources say Bruce White has been hired as a new minister.

November 20, 2001

ConcernedMembers retract a letter sent by the elders to 683 churches of Christ.

November 21, 2001

Email from J.E. Choate—“And also another personal evaluation is that Buck Dozier should be the first to leave the Madison eldership. His qualifications for the work is moot at best. His past shows that he is no stranger to igniting church fires with no solutions."

November 28, 2001

The Book: What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?
http://www.concernedmembers.com/thebook/

December 02, 2001

Bruce White appears to have been warmly welcomed as new minister at the Madison Church of Christ. First sermon was about the degrees of love. It appears that the “Praise Team” and their microphones have been turned off in the second service for the time being.

December 18, 2001

Fundraising letter sent out by the Church. Student ministry letter to former members (12/19/01).

January 20, 2002 (Sunday)

Rumor says there is a new group forming called "The PeaceMakers." Their training is probably coming from PEPPERDINE.

January 21, 2002 (Monday)

Letter sent by Donnie Cruz to the elders and other people about the crisis at Madison. The Christian Chronicle publishes article about Madison Church of Christ (01/21/02).

February 4, 2002 (Monday)

We understand that Buck has presented the members of “The Peacemakers" with a list of 192 reasons churches split. We wonder if pagan worship practices were on the list?

February 6, 2002 (Wednesday)

Big flare-up at church Wednesday night. We understand 4 or 5 of the good and godly elders have resigned, leaving the church under the control of the clapper and Saddleback crowd.

February 9, 2002 (Saturday)

After the resignation of two elders last year, Madison Church of Christ was left with 13 elders: Bill Bennett, Dale Bishop, John Broadway, Joe Corley, Buck Dozier, Chris Gingles, Howard Henderson, Tommy Hoppes, Russ Kersten, Charles Link, Ken Rice, Norman Slate, Ray Wilson. Five of these elders had been opposed to the "praise teams" and clapping which had permeated the second service since last February 2001. This was when Elder Buck Dozier first announced the decision to turn the new third service loose on the second service. The five elders that were opposed we believe were: Joe Corley, Bill Bennett, Dale Bishop, Norman Slate, and Charles Link.

It's understood Tom Haddon and about 200 of his followers threatened to leave sometime ago when the praise teams were stopped. It's understood that Chris Gingles encouraged them to stay and fight it out. Recently the Haddon followers put the push back on to bring back the praise teams, through the elders they control. It's understood that the elders had become rather hostile toward each other, and when this push came again, then 4 of the 5 elders resigned. Charles Link was out of town, and it is assumed he will resign when he returns.

Quote as told to Bobby M. Johnson by one of the elders: "... told me that there had been a recent meeting of the 10:30 AM crowd including Chris Gingles’ and Tom Haddon's followers and they said they would never leave. So that with the push to return to the praise teams and the microphones was the “last straw."

The 5 elders had already decided to resign if the “winds of change” didn't subside. So that's that! 3 of these elders also announced that they would probably be attending church at other locations sometime in the future. [No one here blames them, and we can only try to imagine the pain they have been put through. We are sure that like many of us they were unable to continue to worship in that building.]

HAS GOD LEFT THE BUILDING?

ConcernedMembers announce statewide newspaper advertising campaign

February 10, 2002 (Sunday)

Sunday Services reviewed by Donnie Cruz [see earlier “Timeline”]

February 11, 2002 (Monday)

We at ConcernedMembers have been told that when the 4 elders resigned, that they were assured that their letter would be read to the congregation. Well, as you are probably aware ... not only did their letter not get read, there was also no mention of their resignation, other than a little blip in the Marcher. We have been promised a copy of this letter, and we intend to post it on the web as soon as we get it up.

The Elders’ Resignation Letter Is Here [see earlier “Timeline”]

February 2-17, 2002

Announcement by the Elders [see earlier “Timeline”]

March 1, 2002

The Trap Has Been Set at the Madison Church of Christ [see earlier “Timeline”]

In the February 20, 2002 Madison Marcher, statement made by the elders February 17, 2002:

4. "We believe that there can be unity in diversity and will continue to employ two styles of worship services."

March 10, 2002 (Sunday)

Screen presentation of the elders [6 have already resigned] and their length of service helps Donnie Cruz to figure it out:

(1) John Broadway ...... since 1998
(2) Buck Dozier ........ since 1996
(3) Chris Gingles ...... since 1998
(4) Howard Henderson ... since 1999
(5) Tommy Hoppes ....... since 1999
(6) Russ Kersten ....... since 1992
(7) Charles Link ....... since 1978
(8) Ken Rice ........... since 1989
(9) Ray Wilson ......... since 1992

(Most of the Remaining Elders Are ... That Explains It! [see earlier “Timeline”])

March 24, 2002 (Sunday)

Charismatic Contemporary Style Continues: March 24, 2002 [see earlier “Timeline”]

I don’t believe it is all right to be singing “It’s All Right” when the church is not united in spirit because of what this worship facilitation program has done to begin with. It is NOT ALL RIGHT when the body of Christ is suffering….

March 31, 2002

SUNDAY SERVICES—“Easter"

Notes from the “Madison Marcher” (Wednesday, March 27, 2002):

Bruce White: “We are going to have a great day next Sunday. It is Easter, and we [are] looking for a large crowd. I especially want to see the children in the colorful clothes.” Of the “Great Day in May” (May 5): “… will have a big lunch under the tent at 12:00. One of our choruses will entertain at 1:30.”

May 19-26, 2002; June 2, 2002

Changes Continue At Madison [see earlier Timeline]

(1) the present deacons will be interviewed by the elders and new deacons will be named; (2) there will be additional elders to be selected; (3), the "love feast" -- and it's only "fitting" -- is to follow the Lord's Supper; (4) Canaan's Land is moving; (5) the "praise team" will be reinstated in the early part of July.

June 23, 2002 (Sunday)

ELDER CHARLES LINK RESIGNS, and more!

August 1, 2002

Is There a Tithing Pledge in Madison's Future? Donnie Cruz reports, there could be!

September 1, 2002 (Sunday)

Small Groups, Living Stones, or Prayer Circles?

October 27, 2002

TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests

We are continuing to monitor the progress of the tithing campaign at Madison as taught by Dr. White, based on the tithing manual (“Take God at His Word”) written by Dr. Kregg Hood. Is the truth about tithing (equals 10%) continuing to be perverted as a CARRY-OVER and as a PERPETUAL command from the Old Testament for New Testament Christians? Since Dr. White proclaimed his message in August 2002 that we TITHE to TEST God and to let Him give the increase, we will be referring to the following amounts collected as being “TITHED”:

==================================================================
Church Budget ----------------- 47,143 (2001) ---- 38,000 (2002)
Children’s Home ---------------- 5,400 (2001) ----- 4,021 (2002)
Amazing Grace/CPI -------------- 3,000 (2001) ----- 1,539 (2002)
==================================================================
TOTAL BUDGET---- -------------- 55,543 (2001) ---- 43,560 (2002)
==================================================================
------------- (Sermons on “TITHING” in August 2002) ------------

November 7, 2002

Transcription of Bruce White's Sermon on Tithing [see earlier Timeline]

VOTE:
Would you be willing to sign a Tithing Pledge?
Would you be willing to sign a Church Oath or Covenant?

January 5, 2003 (Sunday)

DRAMA MINISTRY KICKOFF JANUARY 19 (by Kelley Hughes, Madison Marcher)

Drama is nothing new at Madison Church of Christ. From the Summer Spectaculars to Canaan’s Land … we have a long and great tradition of using drama to touch the lives of our members and visitors…. So Jesus himself used A TYPE OF THEATRE to help get his point across…. You may know of someone who is “UNCHURCHED” … The Drama Ministry kickoff meeting will be on January 19 at 5 p.m. in the Fellowship Hall.

April 13, 2003 (Sunday)

EASTER SUNDAY IN “CANAAN’S LAND” (Madison Marcher: April 9, 2003)

Easter Sunday is very special to all of us. For the last ten years in Canaan’s Land, we’ve used our time together on that Sunday to reenact the last week in the life of Jesus…. Responsibilities will range from … to dressing kids to assisting at the various story “sets” (e.g., HELPING SERVE CHILDREN BREAD AND GRAPE JUICE DURING THE LAST SUPPER [emphasis, d.c.]). All of us will celebrate Communion together as we reenact the LORD sharing it with His apostles and telling them its meaning.

(On May 19, 2003, Chris: “I received a copy of the CD that has the worship service from "Easter" on it. It was given to me by a member of the production crew there. … Was there any preaching? Or just reading?” Jeremy responded: “I do agree with what has been said about the Easter service. It definitely was a show. And most of the people I've talked to about that service say the same thing….”

May 12, 2003 (Monday)

Madison Church of Christ, Incorporated: ONE YEAR LATER

Annual Membership Meeting (Madison Marcher, Vol. 52, No. 19, May 7, 2003):

Because Madison Church of Christ is now incorporated, we are required to have an annual membership meeting. This meeting will be on Wednesday, June 4, 2003, at 6 p.m. in the Auditorium for the transaction of such business as may come before the meeting.

June 4, 2003

Madison Marcher (6/4/03) announces: “Broadway Resigns From Eldership.” Ken Rice, May Chairman of the Eldership, said, “It is with great regret that we have received the resignation of John Broadway. Here is his statement:”

After much prayer and deliberation over the past several weeks, I have decided to submit my resignation from the eldership of the Madison Church of Christ….

June 19, 2003

A comparative analysis of statistics from the 2003 publication of “Churches of Christ in the United States,” compiled by Mac Lynn. The counts, based on the reported numbers in 2002, consist of: (1) membership [assumedly “baptized” believers], (2) average worship attendance, (3) adherents [including children?]. Please notice MCC’s staggering data.

---------------------------------------- Members/Attendance/Adherents
Goodlettsville Church of Christ ---------- 490 ----- 685 ----- 770
Hendersonville Church of Christ --------- 1557 ---- 1323 ---- 2105
Woodmont Hills Church of Christ(*)------- 1660 ---- 2300 ---- 2500
Madison Church of Christ ---------------- 3142 ---- 1786 ---- 4730
Richland Hills Church of Christ, TX ----- 4450 ---- 3700 ---- 5240

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(*) Not listed as “Woodmont Hills Family of God” in the directory
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 23, 2003

Madison Marcher: “We are expanding the leadership of this great church.

Terry Ashley,
Mark Street,
Phil Coats

are being added to the eldership today. We are so pleased to see this number grow and expect to be able to service more effectively with these men in place.”

August 6, 2003

Madison Marcher: “The Madison Church of Christ has always had a heart for children and will continue to respond to, assist, and nurture children. We have our camp, youth activities, classes, and other programs for children … Morning Star Sanctuary…. So, we need to support all of these activities through our Sunday School Contribution. The Childcare program … however, will be closed. The State of Tennessee Children’s Services has altered the approach to childcare….”

August 13, 2003

Madison Marcher: “The shepherds are planning a new vision for Madison. They will be listening for awhile and then formulating what the Spirit leads them to envision for this church. Your prayers are earnestly solicited.”

September 3, 2003

Madison Marcher: “We want to encourage both 8:00 and 10:30 services. You will see the designation “traditional” and “contemporary” on our sign and in publication to inform the community of a choice. We hope that both times will see increase in attendance and involvement.” . . . “CALLING ALL SINGERS! The Worship and Music ministry is looking for additional singers. We are especially in need of male singers….” [also appeared in the next 2 weeks].

September 17, 2003

Madison Marcher: “Check your Saturday newspaper and find our new advertisement! . . . ||EVERY SUNDAY||--||Traditional Worship 8:00 am||--||Sunday School 9:30 am||--||Contemporary Worship 10:30 am||--||Evening Worship 6:00 pm|| . . . ||Pulpit Minister, Dr. C. Bruce White||--||Worship Minister, Keith Lancaster||”

September 28, 2003

The message on this Sunday was “Worthy of Double Honor.” It had been announced: “We are planning a very special day on September 28. We will be honoring our shepherds that day.” Former elders (J.D. Elliott, Bobby McElhiney, Charles Link, etc., with their wives) were honored first; current elders, with their wives, were also honored.

October 8, 2003

Madison Marcher: “Please pray for our shepherds. These men are going through some very trying meetings right now. The future of this congregation is weighing heavy on their hearts as they seek the Spirit’s guidance. They need your support and encouragement.”

December 15, 2003

A special e-mail has been received: “… I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic ‘worship services.’ I quit going to Tulsa due to this. ...”

December 17, 2003

Madison Marcher: “Keith Lancaster will be taking a sabbatical from Madison for the next several months to spend more time with Acappella. We wish him well and look forward to his return!”

February 4, 2004

Madison Marcher: “A WORD FROM THE SHEPHERDS”

Shepherds’ Vision 2004: The shepherds have spent the last several months focusing on prayer and preparation of a course for the church family at Madison. … We will maintain a traditional worship style in our 8:00 service on Sunday morning and a contemporary style of worship at 10:30. We are interested in accommodating a worship style which connects the worshipper with the Creator … The elders have implemented a functional change in their roles as shepherds. An Elders Administrative Committee composed of … and Buck Dozier, in conjunction with the Business Manager, will handle day-to-day administrative details. The remaining elders will give their “attention to prayer and the ministry of the Word.” The goal of the elders is to “smell like sheep.” … The Deacons Administrative Committee….

We will be searching for a pulpit minister, as Dr. White enters partial retirement. He will continue to work on staff in other ministries. We look for a long relationship with him and Judy.

We will be looking for anew youth minister to lead our program of developing our young people into leaders for tomorrow.

February 18, 2004

“A Little Flavor of Rick Warren’s Saddleback Community Church-ism”—the following was advertised in the Madison Marcher:

27th Ladies Renewal (April 16th-17th, 2004) in Cadiz, KY—

Come share the Love of Our Lord and your sisters in Christ.
”The Purpose Driven Life”
We will use the book by Rick Warren as we study God’s Word

March 10, 2004

Interactive EASTER drama worship—Dr. White announces change in schedule: The drama presentation on “Easter Sunday” will no longer be an event in the “traditional” worship—it will be performed only during the “contemporary” worship.

March 23, 2004

• Announcement on the Church Sign: WORSHIP WITH US EASTER APRIL 11, 8 & 10:30 A.M. … EASTER PASSION WORSHIP DRAMA AT 10:30 A.M.
  
  
• Easter Worship Drama (Madison Marcher, March 17, 2004). “ . . . Easter Sunday [emphasis here and elsewhere, dc] is always a special time at Madison—but this year, April 11th is going to be unlike any worship experience we’ve ever shared together. During our 10:30 service [wonder why not at 8:00 am, dc], the story of Christ’s last hours—culminating in His Crucifixion and Resurrection—will be presented in the form of an interactive worship drama.
  
  Everyone is encouraged to attend this special time of worship
  

April 5, 2004

• FRONT PAGE re “EASTER SUNDAY PASSION DRAMA”: (MADISON MARCHER, March 31, 2004). “ . . . Experience much of the excitement next week as our Easter Sunday Passion Drama plays out at the 10:30 service [wonder why not at 8:00 am, dc] . . . We’ll join Jesus and His apostles in the upper room where we, as a congregation, will celebrate the Lord’s Supper. … This promises to be a very moving, powerful retelling of the Easter Story….”
  
  Calendar: April 11 (Sunday—Easter) … Easter Worship Drama … 10:30 a.m.— ”The story of Christ’s last hours culminating in His Crucifixion and Resurrection will be presented in the form of an interactive worship drama.
  

April 12, 2004

Jim Morris, who began serving as an elder at the same time with Pat Burch and Marty Rothschild in September, 2002, made the following announcement in the Madison Marcher (Vol. 53, No. 13, April 7, 2004), “Statement to Madison Church:” This is not the time for me to serve this body as an elder.

The Preacher Potpourri column in the Madison Marcher has announced the following (4.21.04): “We are adding more elders. We want you to submit names to help in the process. Think through your selections, write his name or names on a piece of paper, and share it with one of our shepherds.”

June 9, 2004

Russ Kersten retires from eldership (Madison Marcher reports).

June 16, 2004

Ray Wilson retires from eldership (Madison Marcher reports).

There were 15 elders at the end of September 2001—10 of whom have resigned since. Is this report . . . troubling?

J.D. Elliott ----------- resigned 10/2001
Bobby McElhiney -------- resigned 10/2001
Joe Corley ------------- resigned 02/2002
Bill Bennett ----------- resigned 02/2002
Dale Bishop ------------ resigned 02/2002
Norman Slate ----------- resigned 02/2002
Charles Link ----------- resigned 06/2002 (… served since 1978)
John Broadway ---------- resigned 06/2003 (… served since 1998)
Ray Wilson ------------- resigned 06/2004 (… served since 1992)
Russ Kersten ----------- resigned 06/2004 (… served since 1992)

Ken Rice --------------- has served since ---1989
Buck Dozier ------------ has served since ---1996
Chris Gingles ---------- has served since ---1998
Howard Henderson ------- has served since ---1999
Tommy Hoppes ----------- has served since ---1999

Jim Morris ------------- resigned 04/2004 (… served since 09/2002)
Pat Burch -------------- has served since 09/2002
Marty Rothschild ------- has served since 09/2002
Terry Ashley ----------- has served since 07/2003
Phil Coats ------------- has served since 07/2003
Mark Street ------------ has served since 07/2003

July 7, 2004

“From the Madison Search Committee” (Madison Marcher)

“Several months ago … two groups appointed by the elders began praying and working toward the goals of hiring new pulpit and youth ministers. [Both committees included an elder liaison, other men as well as women in each.] … Pray that God … will make His will obvious, and that He will bless Tory’s efforts as he seeks out new opportunities [really?]. …

“As announced, our new pulpit minister (once hired) will enjoy a period of transition with Bruce and be fully in place by the end of the year. Our new youth minister will join our existing ministry team and assume Tory’s responsibilities—also by year end.” [cf. thread on Tory Tredway]

July 14, 2004

Madison Marcher’s special report that “Keith Lancaster returns from sabbatical.”

“The Madison family would like to welcome back Keith Lancaster as worship leader. Keith has been on sabbatical, producing two new albums for The Acappella Company. … In addition to working on the new albums, Keith attended the Pepperdine Lectureship in California and led worship at events in Texas…. ‘It is so great to be back with everyone at Madison,’ Keith said. ‘I really missed leading worship here.’

“Keith will teach a number of new songs in the upcoming weeks, primarily in Homebuilders class on Sunday mornings and Prayer & Praise class on Wednesday nights.

“Madison is very fortunate to have men who are able to lead worship and not just lead songs. …Lipscomb University now offers a worship ministry major, showing the growth of this trend among Churches of Christ.”

August 11, 2004

In “Devoted: Come to the Table” (Madison Marcher, August 11, 2004), it is explained that the “last quarter of 2004 will be devoted to communion and table fellowship” … “each family is encouraged to purchase a copy of Come to the Table, by John Mark Hicks….”

In “Come to the Table” (by Dawn Ferguson) …


Beginning September 26, Haddon will be sharing the premises behind Hicks’ book with his class as other teachers are also doing throughout the church. To help with the “revisioning” of the Lord’s Supper, … “Janelle is painting two images for the class that will be before us the entire six weeks we’ll be discussing communion,” said Haddon. “One will be the table. The other will be the altar. She’ll be depicting the things we think of when we think of altar – sacrifice, blood, etc. For the table, she’ll be painting Adam and Eve in the garden in the presence of God – before sin separated them from God.”

Haddon has asked Wells to paint during each class. “Kathy and I are still discussing and praying about what that painting will be,” said Haddon. “Hopefully, it will bring about the overall sense of hope and joy that Hicks believes is symbolized by the table of fellowship.” “… The living host is present at the table eating and drinking with his disciples. … The table on that first Easter, on that first Sunday, was a table of joy and celebration. There was no solemnity, sadness or burdened hearts.” ( Come to the Table, pg. 87)


[“Come to the Table” (“Revisioning” the Lord’s Supper) authored by John Mark Hicks is taught at Madison.]

August 18, 2004

“Madison Has Two New Elders” (Madison Marcher). See the June 16, 2004 list, plus:

John Hagan ------------- appointed August 2004
Jim Wilson ------------- appointed August 2004

October 6, 2004

In “Phil Barnes/Pulpit Minister,” From the Elders (Madison Marcher):

“Before his start date of November 1 [2004] , we would like to share some of our thoughts regarding Phil [Barnes]. … Phil Barnes is that man. We believe he is a God-lead choice whose strengths closely match the needs of Madison….”

October 27, 2004

In “Madison’s newest praise team joins active ministry” (Madison Marcher):

“The praise teams at Madison have been blessed … the Gold Team emerges as Madison’s newest praise team….”

November 17, 2004

The Madison Marcher declares “White Sock Sunday (a.k.a. ‘Sock It Away Campaign’) Success.” In addition to the “regular” contribution, the financial campaign contribution toward “Debt Retirement” was $304,664.67….

December 1, 2004

This month was highlighted by “Your Holiday Events” (Madison Marcher, 11.24.2004) with activities as: “Christmas of Hope” (12/2) benefiting the Morning Star Sanctuary; “Breakfast with Santa” (12/4, Sat.) in the Church Mall [$4 for adults, $2 for ages 3-11]; “A S’mores Christmas Party (12/4, Sat.)—“Parents Night Out—Kids Night of Fun”; “Singles’ Christmas Party” (12/2, Sat., 7-9 p.m., $15 per person at…)—‘Bring a wrapped Christmas ornament to play {Dirty Santa}’; “CHRISTMAS SINGING” (12/19, Sunday at 6 p.m., Bixler Chapel)—‘Start your holiday week with this inspiring service!’

The new pulpit minister, Phil Barnes, addresses his affinity for Christmas: “‘Merry Christmas’ has been replaced with ‘Happy Holidays.’ … It’s so easy to walk right past the manger with our arms full of gifts, isn’t it? … But … the one God sent to all of us wrapped in cloth and lying in a manger … Jesus Christ is Born!” [on December 25]

“What Is The Drama Ministry?” (cf. Madison Marcher, 12.1.2004). “The goal of the drama ministry is to give glory to God through the use of drama declaring, illustrating and clarifying Biblical truth [emph., d.c.]…” using I Corinthians 9:22 [becoming “all things to all men”]; I Peter 4:10-11 [“whatever gift”]; Eph. 6:19-20 [“make known the mystery of the gospel”].

Sounds like misuse of the scriptures. The other “minister(s)” would have been closer to the truth had they quoted one of their own chief ministering change agents:


“Drama works because we KNOW that it ISN'T TRUE. IF the word entertainment does mean to DIVERT one’s attention, to cause to be pleasurable, to cause to be interesting, then that is what we're here to do.”

January 16, 2005

Beginning this Sunday and the following, Phil Barnes, as a strong advocate of the Community Church/Change Movement, delivers sermons such as: “Is This All There Is to It?”; “Shattering the Shackles”; “Remove the Chains”; etc. These are favorite agenda among change movers. See “Timeline, Part VIII” for details.

January 26, 2005

Beginning this issue of the Madison Marcher, Keith Lancaster, the Musical Worship Leader, writes a series of articles on musical worship: (1) “Worship: It’s All About You, God!” [Notice how he “personally” addresses our heavenly Father—a semblance of “Hey, Man!”]; (2) “Worship: Our Great Heritage of Singing” [What heritage?]; (3) “Worship: God-Centered Singing” [What about Worship-Leader-Praise-Team-Centered Holy Entertainment at the Worship Center?]. See “Timeline, Part VIII” for details.

February 16, 2005

The “INTERACTIVE EASTER WORSHIP DRAMA” all over again!!! “This year on Saturday, March 26th at 7 p.m. and again on Easter Sunday during our 10:30 a.m. worship service, we will be celebrating the Easter Story together in an interactive worship drama … attend these special times of worship … when we will celebrate the Lord’s Supper … no … Canaan’s Land … during the Easter Morning worship service.” [This was brought up in “Timeline, Part VIII” for discussion … but unfortunately diverted into other irrelevant topics.]

March 17, 2005

A review of an article, “Phil Barnes/Pulpit Minister,” in the Madison Marcher (Vol. 53, No. 39, Oct. 6, 2004) reveals the obvious path that the church leaders are treading. “The elders composed a list of 15 … matching … characteristics necessary [for] … that man … to carry Madison forward….” What qualifications? “… Sensitive to traditional/contemporary services … Relevant to today’s environment … Team oriented—gets along well with others … People person … Motivator/promoter [of change, d.c.]….” One very keen observer noted the list as being “Bible-starved.”

March 27, 2005

The contemporary assembly at 10:30 a.m. was entertained with the performance of the “Interactive Easter Worship Drama,” but the 8:00 a.m. assembly was “deprived” of the Easter festival [thank you!!!] Note that some of the elders actually participated in the “Worship Drama.” Was “worship” interactive? There was virtually no congregational participation. All the intervening music during the drama was performed by the “worship leader” [in a “priestly” white robe] and his minstrels. However, the audience participated in the long applause at the conclusion of the worship drama.

April 10, 2005

There was the “combined worship service” at 10:00 on this “Madison Family Day.” The “worship leader,” and his Praise Team and handclappers were in their best behavior. The atmosphere was reverential; the Praise Team members had to hide their microphones; the other cheerleaders proved that the clapping hands have no vocal cords. Congregational singing was evident on this day.

Well, unfortunately, all of that was only transient. On the Sunday following, of course, the “charismatic” behavior of some and the concert-like environment did quickly return. (Please read the article in Part IX titled “The Sunday I Was at the ‘Christian’ Rock Concert.”)

_______________________________________

Quoting Phil Sanders:

“Entertainment settings should not be regarded as periods of worship. … There is no harm in clapping with appreciation for the entertainer, but clapping in worship seems to take the focus off of God and put it on the performer. To be caught up in the skill of a performer and to lose sight of God dilutes and cheapens worship. The rock star status accorded to some entertainers has little place next to the cross. In worship the focus must be on praising God, not the skills of men. Worship put on for show is clearly condemned in Scripture (Matt. 6:1-18; 23:5-12). … The recent blurrings of these distinctions [between entertainment and worship], coupled with the exposure to so many denominational worship services on television, services which feature professional performers, has created the confusion.”

_______________________________________

NOTE: Prior posts to this thread have been archived here. This is done to keep the loading time down and to ensure that all messages in the thread can be viewed. Thanks.

Archives 1
http://www.concernedmembers.com/forumarchives/madison/021126.html

Archives 2
http://www.concernedmembers.com/forumarchives/madison/021024g.txt

Archives 3
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=150389&messageid=1027181246

Archives 4
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=150389&messageid=1041888038

Archives 5
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=150389&messageid=1049383651

Archives 6
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=150389&messageid=1062020979

Archives 7
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=150389&messageid=1074269951

Archives 8
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=150389&messageid=1100171098

Archives 9
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=150389&messageid=1110968133

————————————————————————————————————————
QUOTED FROM AN E-MAIL: [[[[[… I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic "worship services." I quit going to Tulsa due to this. ... ]]]]]
————————————————————————————————————————

———————————————————————————————————————————
Combined 8:00AM and Contemporary (10:30AM) Attendance
(recent statistics taken from the Marcher)
NOTE: All figures below include 300+ from the EXT dept.[?]
*@ .. Sunday School Drive on October 19, 2003
*$ .. “The Passion…” Movie Drive in February-March, 2004
@* .. Interactive Worship Drama (“Easter Sunday”)
@@ .. Baby Day Celebration
X* .. Great Day in May
&$ .. Memorial Day Service
%* .. Madison Family Day (Combined Assembly at 10:00)
(TR). Transition: White out; Barnes in
———————————————————————————————————————————
2001 __________ [NOTE: 2002 census shows MCC with—
_______________ 3142 members;
_______________ 1786 in worship attendance;
_______________ 4730 adherents
__________________________________________________________
2001 JANUARY 3000+ [?]______________________
2001 APR ______ ________2525____________2303
2001 MAY ______ 2498____2675____2403____2348
2001 JUN ______ 2355____2558____2543____2371
2001 JUL ______ 2531____2508____2428____2306____2386
2001 AUG ______ 2177____2375____2297____2161
2001 SEP ______ 2163____2335____2577____2096
2001 DEC ______ 2148____2008____2039____2134____1985
__________________________________________________________
2002 __________ [no stats available_____1786 reported avg.]
__________________________________________________________
2003 JUL ______ 1483____[7/20]
2003 AUG ______ 1702____1759____1726____1742____1732
2003 SEP ______ 1782____1722____1629____1498
2003 OCT ______ 1681__________*@2028____1643
2003 NOV ______ 1708____1664____1526____1637____1596
2003 DEC ______ 1554____1534____________1557
__________________________________________________________
2004 JAN ______ 1725____1712____1640____1715
2004 FEB ______ 1746____1606____1608____1647____1816*$
2004 MAR ______ 1819____1718____1738____1698
2004 APR ______ 1630____2697@*__1628____1733
2004 MAY ______ 1639@@__1748____1605____1713X*__1686&$
2004 JUN ______ 1648____1629____1660____1781
2004 JUL ______ 1691____1633____1797____1639
2004 AUG ______ 1678____1637____1773____1851____1771
2004 SEP ______ 1640____1728____1715____1661
2004 OCT (TR)__ 1687____1660____1630____1660____1617
2004 NOV (TR)__ 1695____1663____1833____1796
2004 DEC (TR)__ 1816____1761____________1491
__________________________________________________________
____ Membership Records for 2004 (Madison Marcher, 01.10.05)
_______________ 1633 Family Units
_______________ 3629 Attenders
__________________________________________________________
2005 JAN ______ 1699____1845____1819____1628____1823
2005 FEB ______ 1893____1844____1917____1953
2005 MAR ______ 1903____1983____1731____2416@*
2005 APR ______ 1736____1822%*__1750____1731@@

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do they still count 325 from the Jail?

Ken

The jail count is not 325. It is 313. But it's close enough. LOL!!! My mistake, nonetheless, for not taking that into account. I believe you're correct. The weekly total includes 313 ... a constant value. The more appropriate reference to it is the Extension Dept.

Just in case the info is incorrect, please respond to this message. We'll make the correction.

Donnie

So Donnie
What's the scoop from the rafters? As I am assuming you are still scoping out the flaws according to what you believe from way up top. I haven't been to Madison since the fall, 2004 but still visit because it is home to me and has great people who I am honored to call my brothers and sisters in the Lord. I hear there is a seminar going on this week. Have you been a part of that? JW, Charlie

Charlie, if you have any influence at Madison perhaps you could suggest a web designer who can post HTML to be read online or ACROBAT stuff which is not so long it plugs up the computer.

Could you tell us who is replacing Jesus this seminar?

Ken

Contemporary Worship Choreography—Made for TV or the “Audience of One”?

Donnie, I have read this post. I have several questions if you have time to answer them. I will only ask one for the time being, I am still watching the Dallas Maverick's game.

What is a "love feast?"

In Christian Love,

Jimmy

Taken from the "worship guide" dated May 15, 2005--is also in the Madison Marcher (May 18, 2005). Can someone help me research as to when churches in Jerusalem, Antioch, Rome, Ephesus, Galatia, Corinth, etc., were incorporated? Thanks!

____________________________________

NOTICE TO ALL MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST MEMBERS: We will have our annual corporation meeting on Wednesday, June 1, 2005 at 6 p.m. in the Main Auditorium. Buck Dozier will be conducting the meeting

Can't find any first or second century Churches incorporating. No individual would claim ownership of the Church!

Who claims ownership of Madison?

I copied this from:
http://www.legalzoom.com/legalzip/corporations/corp_procedure.html

Be smart with your business. Incorporate now!

Incorporating is one of the best ways a business owner can protect his or her personal assets.

Who owns the personal assets at Madison?

Don't tell me the members own it. If the members own it there would have been no reason to incorporate.

In Christian Love,

Jimmy

I have the notes from a Presbyterian church which switched saddles from the "ministers" to the widows and orphans.

The plan is explicit: unfortunately a watching eye caught "partners" right in the middle of the GREAT LEAP FORWARD with old Mousey Dung 5 year plan.

You expand facilities and get in a good financial position. You NEED to change the name and incorporate.

Then you LEAP into the Saddleback and ride away with the property. However, you have to incorporate and put YOUR brand on rear end hide

Just make sense--Old Chineze Proverb:

Big Chang partner with Hung Lo collect many silkworms.
Big Chang say "trust me Hung Lo and we have big worm ranch.
"Hung Lo invest widow's old age rice funds."
Big Chang say: "give widow's rice to buy silk worms--
...."when old widow have big time rice fund."
But, Big Chang have big Yen for Hung Lo's silk worms.
Big chang paint silkworms with own brand.
Hung Lo go to Prefecture Rustling Wormboys.
Big Juan Wang sing new song:

"no luk, no luk, yuk, yuk, yuk:
silkworms now Big Chang's.
can't steal them back
can't steal them back.
no luk, no luk, yuk, yuk, yuk."

Find proverb in old Moon Cake Li Chang promise is ancient Fortune Cookie. Li Chang say he also have ebay sale on "rice wine powered T.V. from Ming dynasty." Maybe update my old kerosene T.V.? Keep seeing old Marco Polo travel story,

Ministry of the Church of Christ

“For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:35-40


Ministries of Madison as taken from their Web Site

Family Life --- Counseling --- Student --- Children
Domestic Violence Program --- Worship & Media Center --- Recreation ---Singles
In Christian Love,

Jimmy

The following post is taken from ConcernedMembers’ Richland Hills Forum—Name of Thread: “Why don’t you spend all this effort on something else” (by Susan French)—

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=177121&messageid=1014337918&lp=1118520910

We would like to re-post PPB’s article that was submitted to the above forum on June 10 2005, 10:48 PM (since it mentions Madison and appropriately so):

_____________________________________

The saddest part about all of this change is that Satan is winning.

I still cannot understand why grown, intelligent adults can't see what is happening. How they are now having no boundaries, no true beliefs, no one path, etc. They have accepted the false premise of Love, Love, Love.

How can those of you who are for Madison and this type of indoctrination not get what is going on? Are you blind or are you scared to see what is so clearly in front of you? That the Church is being taken over by Satan in the name of the Lord should be apparent to anyone who really loves and believes in God. But instead, you condemn those who have the guts to shout out a warning.

For shame on you that have accepted the changes without question. You that feel you have received God's love without much responsibility ... you that fail to read ALL of the Bible and only apply portions. You that have made Church a social occasion and not the somber, serious event it is supposed to be.

Unfortunately, much of this change we should place on our own shoulders. We spent too much time being blameless and perfect Christians and not sharing both our sins and our sufferings with each other. Like the prior poster said, when one sins, stops the sin and asks for forgiveness—the sin is over. In God's eyes and ours! We became overly judgmental and had a "better than you" attitude that allowed this evil into our church. We must now take a stand and stop it. We pretend that our lives are perfect and that we never sin. But we do ... daily! Let's admit it and support each other. Let's help each other thru these times and hopefully, it will prevent others from going down the same path. Only one was perfect.

To those of you who have fallen for the false teachings (and yes, the Bible CLEARLY is against Madison's teachings if you are willing to read ALL of it), I beg you to give up your hardened hearts and realize that being a Christian is about more than just loving the Lord and going around proclaiming your Christianity.

To those of you at Madison, ask yourself why Jesus stated the following:


• "The path is narrow and few there are that will find it."
  
  
• "Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven."
  
  
I dare any of you to read the writings of the early Christians and how they felt about such changes. These are the same men who actually learned at the feet of Paul, Peter, John and the other Apostles. These are the elders of the Churches that Jesus discusses and did not find fault with—just some of the members. The change to the early Church began the same way as the changes are today. Satan seems to do things the same way as long as they work so easily for him.

_____________________________________

Donnie, you haven't updated in several weeks.

have you found another fellowship or has Madison returned to the old paths?

It saddens me to hear you write of these things at Madison. You mention a "Youth Minster" that appears to be a woman. I believe her name was Shana? Is this really true? The other "Youth Minister" was a fellow named Hall. Is he a part of leading the young people at Madison astray? I am saddened by all of this. What would Ira North think?

Please check this out:

http://www.madisoncofc.org/Ministry%20Team/Youth%20Ministers.htm

Donnie

Donnie,

Thank you for the reply. I sincerely appreciate your prompt response. I followed that link, but it only points to one picture...that of the woman "Youth Minister." Surely she is not the only person that Madison has working with the youth. What about the young men? Do they approve of a woman teaching them?

Is the other fellow you mentioned (I believe his name was Hall) involved with this as well? Does he work with the young men, or have any role in all of this? Is he submitting to the authority of the woman "Youth Minister"? All of this is very confusing. I look forward to as much information as you can provide.

If I understand it correctly, there is a female youth minister for the girls and a male for the guys. Given the troubles faced by teenage girls today, this is a pretty wise move if your church can afford it.

B:

If I understand you correctly, are troubles not faced by teenage boys today? Are the boys separated from the girls when they travel to a youth camp? Are the boys separated from the girls when they make music, sing their silly singy-clappy-clappy songs?

No, Donnie. Teenage boys have problems too. However, there are problems that are unique to teenage girls, and they are more likely to share them with a woman.

Yes, Donnie, I would object to that. I would also object to both of them leading songs together.

————————————————————————————————————————
QUOTED FROM AN E-MAIL: [[[[[… I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic "worship services." I quit going to Tulsa due to this. ... ]]]]]
————————————————————————————————————————

DATE (2004) ……… P&P	WHO	PRO- JECTION	FLOW	VIDEO	AUDIO	TIME
You Are the Song That I Sing	Key Clapmaster		seated
You’re the One You’re the Only One			seated
He Has Made Me Glad			standing
Light the Fire			standing
I Exalt Thee			standing
Prayer	Jerry Morgan		seated
Reading John 13:34; I John 3:16-18	Mark Steers	not projected	seated
Arms of Love			seated
We Will Stand	Key and Kev
conversation: what does it mean to be a “visitor-friendly church”?	Key and Hal B		video operator needs cues for transitions to conver- sations
1st Video Segment (Opener)
conversation – what others think	Key and Hal B
2nd Video Segment (negative opinions)
conversation	Key and Hal B
3rd Video Segment (worship & evangelism)
conversation	Key and Hal B
4th video segment – how we treat each other
discuss conclusions from videos	Key and Hal B
Invitation	Hal Barns
Greatest Commands	Kev Dunback
Shepherd’s Prayer	Buck Frazier
Hallowed Be Thy Name	Key and Kev

The Contemporary Christian Music Movement has popularized the expression “the audience of One” in reference to God to whom “corporate worship” is supposedly being directed. It is a defensive argument for the popular notion that a change in “worship style” should not be an issue in a changing society. Is “worship style” the real issue? Or is “worship content” the real issue? I know … I know that the list of questions related to the subject of “worship” is endless.

The document below will reveal to the open-minded reader a typical setting of activities that occur in the “contemporary worship service” at Madison. So, what has become of the simplicity of the “gathering of the saints” that the New Testament speaks of?

Please review the information below very carefully. (“Names have been changed to protect the innocent.”) What does God care about “CCBCEnding – AABABA” or “VCVCVending” or the “prayer leaders and Hal walk[ing] up to stage together” or the “trio seated” at a certain time? What does God care about the elite Praise Team and the use of the microphones so the One can hear the performing team members better and be glorified better than without their voices magnified?

Is choreographed worship “in spirit and in truth”? What does “worship in spirit and in truth” mean? When is it a performance? Is it “holy entertainment”?

DATE (2005) ……… SECOND SERVICE	WHO	PROJECTION NOTES	FLOW NOTES
Focus	Hal Barns		prayer leaders and Hal walk up to stage together
Prayer	Gregory Drew, Michael Hurt, Jason Petersen		3 prayer leaders, 3 themes: praise, thanksgiving including our freedom in X; seeking God’s guidance
Lord We Come Before Thee Now #419	Key Clapmaster	v1, v2, ooh a verse while Steve prays, then last verse (modulate the last verse?)	all singers and prayer leaders go up to the front at the same time
There is Power in the Blood #667		first and last – repeat chorus – direct into next song	standing (song is there is power in the blood: “free” goes with his lesson
Give Thanks to the Lord n.b.#2		CCBCEnding-AABABA
Light the Fire notebook #171		repeat chorus (normal)
Leaning on the Everlasting Arms #394		1st & last verse / chorus / repeat chorus
Greatest Commands		no repeats A – B – T – S	seated (trio seated)
Video			testimony about the importance and the desire for fellowship with the church family; perhaps from many people (one line from each) “I can’t make it w/o the fellowship of my brothers and sisters…Can’t wait to be with the church family…etc.)
Love Feast
Blessed Be the Lord God Almighty notebook #10		VCC	standing
Shout to the Lord n.b. #11		normal
I Need You More n.b. #27		normal
If You Miss Me n.b. #68		normal
Clap Your Hands n.b. #160		normal
Hymn Background	Tom Saddleback		seated
Ten Thousand Angels #621		all verses/one chorus
I Can Only Imagine notebook #104
Communion	Wade Huddles		Bread “Come to the Table” V one Chorus; Cup: Chorus
Contribution	Carroll Champus
One Thing I Ask n.b. #101		VCVCVending
The River Is Here n.b. #174		new big ending	dismiss children
Message: “Defeating the Enemies of Change”	Hal Barns
There’s a Fountain Free #655			song is “There’s a Fountain Free”
Shepherd’s Blessing	Terry Ashford		(dealing with freedom in Christ), trio come back to stage
My Life Is in You notebook #46		one bass, only sing one verse (half as long as normally sing) – half
			sing out: Jesus Will Fix It

When I see worship choreography such as this written out with all kinds of cues and directions, I am reminded of the liturgy in the Roman Catholic Church and its branches, which is completely written out. All the priest needs to do is read it verbatim if he hasn't already memorized it. Scripture verses are planned for each particular Sunday in the liturgical year, week in and week out, as are the "prayers." Virtually nothing is spontaneous, all done by rote.

In contrast, when I was organist for a Baptist church, there was a printed "order of worship," which listed everything that was supposed to transpire during the service, including the hymns. But that church had a pastor who loved to be "spontaneous" by deviating from the order. He deleted hymns and added hymns on the spur of the moment without ever telling the church musicians in advance, so we often were caught off guard. Sometimes the Minister of Music would be ready to direct the choir in their next number, only to be interrupted by the pastor jumping up to lead the congregation personally in a "spontaneous" hymn that he had just thought of. Being "spontaneous" created nothing but chaos when there were instrumentalists and other performers/entertainers involved.

So on the one hand, we have Churches of Christ who are imitating the Catholics or the Protestant denominations with their "choreographed worship/order of worship," and on the other hand we have Protestant denominations that defeat a "choreographed worship/order of worship" through the chaos of spontaneity.

What's the solution? If a church would be truly spontaneous, get rid of the instrumentalists and those who vocally imitate the sound of instruments. Get rid of any choreographed praise teams, soloists, choirs, and those who would otherwise seek the accolades of men through their "holy" performances. Thus the chaos is removed, and worship is simple and spontaneous.

Wow, Donnie,

Can you reveal where you got these documents? Perhaps from an anonymous scource? You know what Dr. Crump says about anonymous on another thread.

Or, perhaps you just made all this up.

Annie Mouse

Wow, Ms. Mouse,

Here are some interesting observations:

• Hmmm! By “where” … do you mean which church or congregation? It is certainly not from one of the seven churches in Asia “revealed” in the book of Revelation—not from Ephesus, Smyrna [Tennessee], Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis [Alabama], Philadelphia [PA], Laodicea.
  
  
• If you’re not afraid to reveal yourself, I’ll consider letting you know if I received them by e-mail, by priority/express mail or by regular mail or if they were specially delivered or handed to me.
  
  
• I’m trying to think really hard. If I made up the documents, would I be recognized as a creative producer? Would the documents be more credible or less? I now wonder what I really meant when I said that the names were changed “to protect the innocent.”
  
  
• Speaking of another thread, “Contemporary Worship Choreography—Made for TV or ‘the Audience of One’? ” should be a good one to check out. In fact, both documents were initially posted in that thread. The last post in this thread is dated May 29, 2005 at 6:46 a.m.
  
  

I have just read that last post from that thread. Guess what, Annie? I want to thank you for your post above. I was going to do a follow-up article. But why bother? I am reposting that last post, plus the e-mail I got from a FORMER “Worship Leader,” Dan Lucarini. Madison’s “Worship Leader,” Keith Lancaster (Church of Christ, I think), could use some advice from Dan Lucarini, a FORMER “Worship Leader” (Baptist).

___________________________


Message from a "former" worship leader
May 29 2005 at 6:46 AM

I must share this special message from someone who is highly knowledgeable about the CCM Movement. In fact, he has written a book published by Evangelical Press, “Why I Left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement,” now on its 13th printing. I have been granted permission to post this personally treasured e-mail from Dan Lucarini:

________________________________

-----Original Message----- From: Dan Lucarini [danlucarini@msn.com] Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 7:29 PM To: donniecruz@msn.com Subject: Contemporary Worship Choreography-Made for TV or "the Audience of One"? Hey Donnie, I see you are still stirring up the 'worship' hornet nest! So am I. As a former worship leader, I knew exactly what the order of service you printed means. I chuckled at the 'VCC' (verse-chorus-repeat chorus). At the same time, seeing it again made me realize afresh how trite and manipulative is the entire exercise of 'planning worship'. There's an interesting book out called Worship: The Simple Mystery by Dan McGowan (friend of mine). It should have been titled 'confessions of a current worship leader'. Dan recounts the time a professional worship consultant came to his Evang Pres church and taught the worship team how to fake the sincerity. He also laments the professionalism that has taken over Sunday mornings. Our contemporary worship friends are caught in a dilemma of their own making. On one hand they tell us we have to abandon the old, dead, lifeless forms of worship where people do the same thing over and over again, and there is no spontaneity allowed. On the other hand, these same people rigorously program their own worship services with lots of little manipulative entertainment tricks like those in your article. Spontaneity always degenerates into ritual, whenever men devise their own ways to worship the gods. But where there is spiritual worship in truth (John 4:24), ritual cannot take control. Blessings in Christ, my fellow soldier. Hope to meet someday Lord willing. Dan +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Contemporary Worship Choreography—Made for TV or "the Audience of One"? Donnie Cruz http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=150389&messageid=1116403970

________________________________

Donnie

Donnie,

If I told you who I am, you don't really expect me to believe you will reveal the source of you garbage, do you?

Bubba, I don't trust you in the outhouse with a muzzle on!!

Annie M.

You did'nt read my post very carefully either. It said "you' garbage. It was a typo on my part. It really said "your" garbage. That means it is "yours" not anyone else's. You are very good a spouting on and on and on about what if's and maybe's. When 'ya grow up and get a life, and maybe a couple friends, instead of alienating the world about the truth??

Steppin off my box

Annie

I never will cease to be amazed at the utterly predictable natures of change agents and others who oppose God's truth and this web site. Having no solid ground whatsoever upon which to support their unbiblical agenda, their pseudo-Christian personalities rapidly crumble to reveal unfortunate, empty shells capable of no greater "achievements" than hurling insults, sarcasm, and/or character assassinations. "Annie" perfectly demonstrates this to us from the dark depths of anonymity:

"When 'ya grow up and get a life, and maybe a couple friends, instead of alienating the world about the truth??"

"Annie" and others of like persuasion exist only to goad and harass, "get under the skin," divide and tear down. Would that they could aspire to higher, Christian virtues.

“Worship Ministry”—Its LOST Focus on Worship
AND FOUND Focus on Musical Idolatry


Only the last name [but not the first character] of each “responsible” individual below has been changed “to protect the innocent.” The following list of “Updates and Improvements” was addressed to the “Worship Team” of the Madison congregation on December 29, 2004:

_________________________________

WORSHIP MINISTRY


ANNOUNCEMENT SLIDES_______Responsible: Keith Hill

• Need to run 5 minutes before service begins (Sundays 8:00 A.M., 10:30 A.M. and 6:00 P.M. and Wednesdays 6:30 P.M.) and immediately at the end of each service for 5 minutes.
  
• Add numerous interesting Madison details/factoids with as many pictures as possible.
  
  

SLIDE CONTENT_____________Responsible: Keith Hill

• Make sure words don’t bleed off the screen for sermon notes or song lyrics. Due to the limitations of the viewable space on the screen in the auditorium, refrain from utilizing the top ¼ to 1/3 of the screen for text.
  
• For song lyrics, use minimal capitalization—generally just first word of slide and any references to Deity. Often the letter O looks better capitalized too, as in O what a glorious God.
  
• Minimal punctuation, only what is critical for understanding. Rarely use ending punctuation (exclamation points, periods, etc)
  
• If men and women sing different parts, call them men and women, not ladies, guys, females etc.
  
• The overall text of a song should be consistent in font size. Be sure that the text size doesn’t change during a complete song.
  
  

SLIDE PROOFING____________Responsible: Keith Hill

• Be sure to check lyrics against the Finale sheet music if we have that song in Finale. There are three different folders in the Finale file. Most of the music that is finalized is in the “master” folder. Ken’s songs have not been checked by KL [Keith “Clapmaster”] yet but we are still using them. Most of these are traditional songs from the hymnals that Eric and Ken are entering for us to have in Finale. That way it is quick and easy to pull a whole service from Finale most of the time, even the early/evening services.
  
• Utilize a third-party proofer.
  
• If the sheet music is not in Finale, be sure to check the lyrics against the hymnal in Bixler OR the hymnal in the auditorium, depending on where the service will be held.
  
• Review song lyrics for all upcoming services on Wednesday.
  
• Operator review each program with worship leader before each service.
  
  

VIDEO MINISTRY____________Responsible: Keith Hill

• Have videos reviewed on Wednesday prior to the Sunday service.
  
  

SHEET MUSIC_______________Responsible: Leanne Sheay

• Copy praise team music books for late service, Prayer & Praise class, funerals, away games and other praise team events.
  
• Prepare worship leader books as needed.
  
  

PRAYER LEADERS____________Responsible: Leanne Sheay

• Contact prayer leaders for both Sunday morning services and Prayer & Praise class; mail their reminder cards; explain flow/procedures to all.
  
  

ASSEMBLY READINGS_________Responsible: Leanne Sheay

• Research and prepare good hymn backgrounds for future use; get ahead at least 10 of these to choose from.
  
• Congregational readings from Scripture; get ahead at least 10 selections to choose from.
  
• Congregational readings (creative/poetic), same quantity.
  
• Call to worship passages, same
  
• Shepherd’s blessings, same
  
  

SONG TRACKING_____________Responsible: Leanne Sheay

• Track song usage in a spreadsheet.
  
  

SINGING WORKSHOP__________Responsible: Kay Nickens

• Plan course content, logistics, materials/handouts needed.
  
• Plan promotion and communications needs.
  
  

PRAISE TEAM & LEADER DEVT Responsible: Kay Nickens

• Plan double praise team makeup, rehearsal schedules, music needs.
  
• Plan and implement praise team events, including banquet, training workshops and fellowship events.
  
• Orient new praise team members.
  
• Plan training times for additional worship leaders.
  
• Help facilitate teen praise team launch and children’s chorus.
  
  

LONG RANGE PLANNING_______Responsible: Kay Nickens

• Prayer & Praise class
  
• Introduction of new songs
  
• Finale (sheet music) needs
  
• Tabulate data from song tracking database
  
• Future video ideas
  
  

WRITING___________________Responsible: Kay Nickens

• Newsletter development; write additional training articles and news articles.
  
• Marcher articles (Keith’s series on worship, Chris’ articles on P&P)
  
  

DEPT. TRACKING PROCESS____Responsible: Kay Nickens

• Plan and implement tracking and follow-through for action items
  
  

NEW SONG BOOK_____________Responsible: Kay Nickens

• Coordinate roll-out of new song book, including sales of individual copies
  
  
  

___________________________________

Matthew 4—“[1] Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. [2] And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. [3] And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. [4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. [5] Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, [6] And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. [7] Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. [8] Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; [9] And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. [10] Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”

Matthew 15—“[7] Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, [8] This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. [9] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

John 4—“[20] Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. [21] Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. [22] Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. [23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. [24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

Donnie,

been missing you the last couple weeks at the assembly. glad to see you are alive and well.

the pm and wm seem to compliment each other. it seems that the wm plans his music around the lessons that we have been learning from the pm...understanding grace through the life of peter. i'd say they work together, or at least it seems to unfold that way.

we did have a rather interesting time of prayer early in the service, with elders and their wives positioning themselves throughout the assembly for a period of prayer.

annie

While you were out for a few microseconds WE have turned HOSTILE against the Church Growth Cult. Now, that is all wrong. The new stuff I feel brewing seems to be a take off of CM and Piney.com.

However, the very LATEST of the LATEST is called The Missional Church.

Now, being a rational type YOU think that means that we are gonna get all of the singy-clappies and false preachers out of the Widows trough and install a GO button. But, whoa! Missional is a Third Incarnation of the Mountain of Ministry Madness: MMM or 3M, melts in their purse; not in your mouth.

You remember that I linked an article from Shelly-York Inc. called the Located Missionary?

You will hear Missional Meetings, Missional Teams, Missional Budgets, Missional Musical Teams and Musical Planning and Procedures. I am sure that people are forming Located Missional Forums staffed by the Horizontal Recliner Evangelist Specialists and Missionaries in Residence.

The Mennonites and probably others already offer a Ph.Duh in The Missional Church. I am sure that you can get an associates degree in Mistress of Missional Ministry or Missional Administration.

Look for your Missional Revised Version!

Any more missional talk?

I have already posted the following (cf. thread: “I am music and I write the songs”; post dated June 5, 2005), but it is worth repeating here. Madison’s “Worship Leader,” along with his musical worship praise team, was on tour this Sunday (10/2/05). But the “Contemporary Musical Worship HourPlus” had a substitute Praise Team [also with their “own” microphones]. There were 11 or 12 contemporary “Christian” musical pieces sung/performed—ALL contemporary—and NOT ONE from the hymnbook. A couple of these would be erotic/romantic songs to someone who knows nothing about Christianity. Hopefully, there was no atheist or pagan in attendance. So, here’s the post:

“Oh, I was made for this: to know your tender kiss”

Graham Kendrick, who wrote the following song in 1995, is ALSO one of those who have exploited the “Christian music” business for profit in the name of the Christian religion. He has written “several hundred songs” that organizations such as www.worshipmusic.com promote. There are a few of Kendrick’s religious music pieces that are ALSO in Keith Lancaster’s collection of songs for Madison (see notebook #170).

http://www.grahamkendrick.co.uk/

Doesn’t any man or woman wonder about the emotional or erotic impact on his/her nerve endings when certain words or expressions in the song are uttered … whether or not the name of Jesus is mentioned in the song? As the chairman/president of the BBN (Bible Broadcasting Network) has said recently about CCM (Contemporary Christian Music), many men are embarrassed and do not participate in the singing of certain contemporary songs that express how “beautiful” Jesus is, etc. The song “I Stand in Awe” [really?] begins with: “You are beautiful beyond description.”

Well, again, in the song below, certain words such as “you” and “your” are not capitalized to get my point across. You know, there are some songs of romance that contain expressions as “your love divine.” But the word “divine” in a natural love song does not qualify it as a hymn or spiritual song. So, are you ready?

Title: “I Was Made for This”

[v.1] Oh, I was made for this: to know your tender kiss,
to know a love divine, to know this love is mine,
and I was made to laugh and I was made to sing,
given the gift of life, you gave me everything.

[v.2] My feet were made to dance, my spirit made to soar.
My life is not by chance, you give me more and more,
for I was made for you and I have made my choice,
and all that stole my joy I left at the cross.

[v.3] When I was far away you ran to welcome me.
I felt your warm embrace; I saw your smiling face,
and when you rescued me I saw my destiny:
to worship you my Lord, to be a friend of God.

So I will celebrate and drink your cup of joy.
I will give thanks each day and sing.
My joy is found in you and you are all my joy.
Oh, I was made for this.
I was made to love you Jesus. I was made for this.
Oh, I was made to love you Jesus. I was made for this.

Well, there are too many I … I … I … I … I … me … and … my.

What about just singing “Jesus loves me! This I know, for the Bible tells me so.” Or, “Let the beauty of Jesus be SEEN IN ME all His wonderful passion and purity.”

_____________________________

Well, here’s another one for your consideration:

Title: “In Moments Like These”

In moments like these I sing out a song,
I sing out a love song to Jesus.
In moments like these I lift up my voice,
I lift up my voice to the Lord.
Singing I love you Lord, singing I love you Lord,
Singing I love you Lord I love you.
Singing I love you Lord, singing I love you Lord,
Singing I love you Lord I love you.
[Exactly as on the sheet … except that “You” is not capitalized here]

Wonder why surveys show that many “Christian men” refuse or are hesitant to sing erotic/romantic songs like these to Jesus??? Additional note: I haven’t heard of English-speaking nations having a male family member named “Jesus” or “Judas.” But watch out when this song is translated, e.g., into Spanish. Alberto would be singing a love song to Jesus.

Donnie

I don't know--I've never met one who expressed such concerns. I'm really wondering, and I'm not trying to imply anything other than an honest question, have you ever met a man who expressed such unease (unless prompted by another)?

If that is the case, why would this song not bother them?

There is a name I love to hear, I love to sing its worth;
It sounds like music in my ear, the sweetest name on earth.
Oh, how I love Jesus,
Oh, how I love Jesus,
Oh, how I love Jesus,
Because he first loved me.

If it were sung, "first and last verses only" , would an atheist be led to believe it were "erotic".

Or could it be when its a song I grew up with (as I grew up singing "Oh, How I Love Jesus") that I would never think to question the intent of the song or its interpretation but when its a song that I'm unfamiliar with or, quite obviously, one whose "style" someone dislikes they begin to "see" problems and suggestive undertones that others who are unenlightened and innocent enough to interpret within the relationship of humble servant adoring a loving Savior just don't see.

I sometimes wonder if its not just a matter of some guys are so nervous with the very word "love" and so messed up as to what it means (last I checked, John wrote by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that "God is love") that they will always feel more comfortable singing about something else.

God bless.

you have too much time on your hands donnie if you are worried about this!

Worry more about the homeless, the addicts, etc. than a song.
you really think Jesus cares a lick about a silly song.

Source: http://www.bbnradio.org/wcm/Default.aspx?TabId=181&ArticleID=2704

______________________________

Perspective — “CCM Music”


I picked up a national magazine this past week, and the article that caught my eye was about the explosive growth of evangelical churches in America. Many of the megachurches are franchising their name like the commercial world. Some of these churches have "ministries" that bring in millions of dollars from coffee shops, restaurants, auto repairs, book stores, consulting arms, rock concerts, affiliate fees and others things that develop income. Some preach the "Prosperity Gospel" taking in millions, while sharing false teachings and phony miracles with a message of self-evaluation and positive thinking.

One clear identity of all of these "megachurches" and media outreaches is not the Bible, evangelism, teaching or preaching. It is the rock music. It is the glue that holds it altogether. Who would have thought that the Church of Jesus Christ would one day utilize a music that is totally sexual in its origin and designed with a beat that drives the physical body to an emotional ecstasy and calls it "worship."

A book I recently received had the words of several Contemporary Christian Music songs. They spoke of some fantasy relationship. Because God, or Jesus, or a Biblical reference, or spiritual implication was not included in most of the songs, they could apply to any physical love affair between two people. The songs had intimate statements that I could hardly believe. I thought, how would a teenager interpret these? How would an unsaved person read this? The fantasy of a love relationship would quickly appeal to a fleshly interpretation. Put the rock beat with the words and you’ve got the picture.

In the book BBN is sharing this month, Dan Lucarini, who was a worship leader in a CCM church, says, "Like other contemporaries, I was blind to the subtle, sexual influences creeping into my worship teams and unwilling to admit that my worship music could possibly be tainted with sex."

Because of our concern at BBN about this sensitive issue, we will be focusing on music this month. We believe it is a battleground where Satan is deceiving many Christians. After all, he knows the power of music. He was the choir leader in heaven before his fall, and many of his choir members fell with him. I do not know the music they played or sang, but I am sure of one thing. He knows that music is a powerful tool to move people, and he is determined to destroy the Church of Jesus Christ. What better way than to use the tool he is most familiar with - music.

July is a summer month that is always a financial challenge, and we trust you will share during this time a special gift so that we may share the most beautiful music this side of heaven. "To God Be The Glory, Great Things He Hath Done" Thank You!

Article by Lowell Davey
President of BBN

______________________________

Source: http://www.bbnradio.org/wcm/Default.aspx?TabId=181&ArticleID=2704
Bible Broadcasting Network International

Headline News

Madison’s conflict reflects broader issues

By Lindy Adams
January 21, 2002


The Christian Chronicle - Its name is legendary and brings to mind legendary people and associations. It was our first multi-faceted, multi-programmed mega-church.

It’s the church led by Jim Mankin, Jimmy Sites, Steve Flatt and, of course, the inimitable Ira North. It’s Amazing Grace Bible Class, Happy Hills Boys Ranch, song leader Nick Boone — yes, Pat’s brother.

It’s Madison.

It’s the church on Gallatin Road in suburban Nashville, Tenn., which under the leadership of bigger-than-life Ira North, went from being a typical congregation to being what some considered our flagship. In its heyday it was the largest congregation in churches of Christ.

But in recent years Madison has fallen on hard times.

North succumbed to cancer in the 1984 and in the years since the congregation has gone from a well-oiled machine to one in need of overhaul.

However, recent attempts at an overhaul put those committed to the old ways and those seeking the new at terrible odds.

Tensions rose. Tempers flared. Members were set against members. Some left.

At the end of 1998, Madison’s Sunday morning attendance was 3,240. Today it is 2,433, a loss of about 800 members, according to Jerry Sherrill, Madison’s business administrator.

So traumatic, so heart-breaking, so disconcerting.

But too typical.

Across the nation religious groups from Baha’i to Baptist are embroiled in similar conflict, reports Faith Communities Today, a research project of the Lilly Endowment which released its findings on 42 U.S. religious bodies last March. Frequently the conflict centers on worship issues.

The FACT study — which included data from congregations among churches of Christ — found that 59 percent of all religious bodies nationwide changed worship practices a “great deal” in the last five years and that such change brought conflict.

As any attentive observer knows, our fellowship is no exception. Since mid-August, word of conflict in 11 congregations has been reported to the Chronicle. The discord is of several sorts, but often regards worship.

But what happened at Madison?

Some parts of the story are disputed. While Madison’s elders declined to discuss the details of the conflict, some members and leaders shared their insights.

The church’s troubles began in earnest in early 2001, members say. A contemporary Sunday morning service in the church’s basement fellowship hall was added to two existing traditional services. The new gathering quickly outgrew its quarters.

In February, elder Buck Dozier read an elders’ statement saying the contemporary service would replace the second traditional Sunday morning service in the main auditorium. The next Sunday some members walked out of the contemporary worship, according to deacon David Hardin.

From that Sunday, the conflict escalated. Madison’s prominence drew coverage in local media — including television reports and two articles in The Tennessean.

A few traditional members, calling themselves “Concerned Members,” began a web site with complaints and reports and mailed 2,500 questionnaires to members polling them about issues.

A member from the traditional worship service called publicly for the elders’ resignation.

Meanwhile, participants in the contemporary worship chafed under decisions by the elders requiring a mixture of traditional and contemporary songs and regulating the length of the sermon.

Practices including use of a praise team on Sunday morning and singing during communion have been prohibited, according to member David Hardin.

However, other Madison sources say such issues are under study.

In September the elders called for help. Larry Sullivan of the Straus Institute for Dispute Resolution, Pepperdine University, made the first of several visits to Madison to help resolve the difficulties.

Sullivan instructed the congregation in dispute resolution skills, conducted interviews with members from various factions and assembled teams to discuss differences. He said Madison, like many churches, is struggling with addressing contemporary culture without abandoning the truths of Christ’s message.

Madison members are frustrated, he said. “They want to reach out and be pertinent to our culture today, yet not lose the underpinnings of the Gospel. I think everybody sees the dilemma and is trying to address it in certain ways.”

As Madison seeks resolution to its ills, what in its experience can offer insight to other churches? Certainly that no church, regardless of prominence, age, history or leadership is immune.

Fifteen years ago few members could have imagined the fracturing that has occurred at Madison, according to sources at the congregation.

As the Madison elders said in their February statement, “… we believe that these times challenge us to humbly re-look at what we think and believe. … We have sought the perfect church in the New Testament, but found them struggling also. We pursued infallible practice and spotless leadership in the Restoration Movement. We found greatness and inspiration, but no perfection. Regardless of our age or position, we all must admit our humanity, and humble ourselves before God.”

COMING IN OUR SERIES ON CONFLICT: the Chronicle will examine additional sources of conflict, how to address them and lessons to be learned from congregations who have lived through strife and endured.

_________________________________________

(NOTE: “At the end of 1998, Madison’s Sunday morning attendance was 3,240. Today [that was in January, 2002] it is 2,433, a loss of about 800 members….” For more recent statistics [1,600? … 1,700? …] , see near the beginning of this thread and Madison’s website: http://www.madisoncofc.org/Marcher/index.aspx.)

Vol. 54, No. 39, September 28, 2005 states the return of the prayer partners to Madison.

Actually the prayer partners may have always been at Madison, I am not sure, but the recent Marcher does assure us that the program is not dead and will be a tool for Mrs. Barnes.

The "prayer partner" program will always be remembered as one of the Gainsville programs from back in the late 70's and early to mid 80's. The preacher who begin this program at Gainsville was fired in the mid 80's for the reoccurring problem of praying and laying with the ladies.

The Marcher reads:

One of the goals of the Mugs ‘N

Muffins Morning is to connect people

through prayer partners. Sharing a

problem with a prayer partner is like

cutting your problem in half,” said

Barnes.“It just lifts the burden on

you so much more when someone

else is also taking your problem to God.

“All Madison ladies are encour-

aged to attend this special time

together and to bring a guest.

In Christ,

Jimmy Wren

Why are only ladies invited to become "prayer partners"? Don't men also have a "need" to have prayer partners? Just wondering.

Hello Dr. Bill

That does seem a bit unusual. Maybe they are trying to keep from having a repeat of Crossroads, you know, the handsome young married preacher with the handsome young married ladies.

A situation like that can drive the elders crazy plus the paying out of hush money from the church treasury.

In Christ,

Jimmy

Let's see: I have MY problems but if I also take on YOUR problems then I have fewer problems? Do I have it? Just what busy housewifes need: the pastor person conjuring up another affair to keep them from getting bored.

The old SHEPHERDING DODGE again? In his later years Lynn Anderson has turned to the old but new DISCIPLING or SHEPHERDING routine. Everyone gets matched up but some matches are more even than others. See

http://www.piney.com/Anderson-Shepherds.html

This is the old Cross Roads and later the Promise Keepers KGB. Having failed in many respects PK has adopted SHEPHERDING which is shades of the International Church of Christ.

http://www.piney.com/ErasmusMonks.html

And yet these kind of people, though they are as it were of another commonwealth,
no man dares despise, especially those begging friars, because

they are privy to all men's secrets by means of confessions,
as they call them. Which yet were no less than treason to discover,
unless, being got drunk, they have a mind to be pleasant,

and then all comes out, that is to say by hints
and conjectures but suppressing the names.


But if anyone should anger these wasps,
they'll sufficiently revenge themselves in their public sermons
and so point out their enemy by circumlocutions

that there's no one but understands
whom 'tis they mean, unless he understand nothing at all;


nor will they give over their barking till you throw the dogs
a bone. And now tell me, what juggler or mountebank

you had rather behold than hear them
rhetorically play the fool in their preachments,


and yet most sweetly imitating what rhetoricians
have written touching the art of good speaking?

History proves it: they ALL spill YOUR beans and the Preacher has you by the short hair in case you sass him.

Source: http://www.christianity.com/christianchronicle

_____________________________________

I just read the article by Lindy Adams and am amazed at how this same thing has been played out at so many local congregations. Brownsville Road church of Christ here in Memphis has lost over half of its membership from reports that I receive. My home church at Sycamore View went through similar struggles, but at least for the moment appears to be past this as a problem and is growing rapidly once again. Please see my thoughts on this issue posted on my web site in October 2001 at __________ Memphis, Tenn.

_____________________________________

In the war of words it is funny how the selection of terms can change things. For example, is it anti-abortion or is it pro-life? Is someone pro-abortion or are they just pro-choice?

In your January issue story about the conflict at the Madison congregation, there were those pesky words again — “traditional” and “contemporary.” Is it traditional or is it scriptural? (“We certainly don’t want to be bound by those nasty old man made traditions”). Is it contemporary or is it just plain un-scriptural? ________________@_________

_____________________________________

I appreciated the recent article the Chronicle ran on the Madison Church of Christ. I’m 41 and went there all my life. My mom and sister (went there) for 50 years. In December we all had to leave. It was heartbreaking. It will never be the same again.

We did all that we could do — met with elders, wrote many letters to the elders, went to group meetings, met with Larry Sullivan from Pepperdine (the mediator), even helped in getting over 700 people to sign a petition to restore our church. After (that) one elder said to the whole congregation, ‘Just get over it’ (That was) how things (were) going to continue, (so) we left. It is a spirit church. We left the last Sunday of October 2001 and on the first Sunday of December. We placed membership at the Neely’s Bend Church of Christ here in Madison. ___________@_____

_____________________________________

Flip-Flop
By Steve Higginbotham
April 15, 2005

At least in four Old Testament passages, the expression, "The Beauty of Holiness" is employed. Holiness is indeed beautiful. As good as repentance, confession and forgiveness are, holiness better. We live in a time when the value and beauty of holiness is not recognized, and is not seen for what it is.

In fact, rather than focusing upon the "Beauty of Holiness," we live in a time when people have flip-flopped this biblical expression and are being deceived by what they think is the "Holiness of Beauty."

Just look around. Take note of how the church seems more preoccupied with "beauty," rather than "holiness." Want an example? Congregational singing is giving way in some churches to special group singing and choruses. Forget about the "beauty of holiness" in the cracking, failing voice of an aged Christian widow singing, "Heaven Will Surely Be Worth It All," and make room for the perceived "holiness of beauty" in the melodic, trained voices of professional singers.

Friends, don't misunderstand. There is nothing wrong in beauty, it's just not our aim. Our aim is holiness. The value is not in beauty, but holiness. Remember we are to worship God in the "beauty of holiness," not in the "holiness of beauty."

"Give unto the LORD the glory due to His name; Worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness" (Psalm 29:2).

I noticed most of the articles about church conflict are dated several years ago. Ya'll think the conflict is over and Ya'll aint woke up and realized you lost???

Eddie stated, “Ya'll think the conflict is over and Ya'll aint woke up and realized you lost???”

The change agents scoff and laugh at those of us who proclaim the Word of God, who admonish all to stay on the narrow path, who strive to keep worldliness and man-contrived doctrines out of the Church. Because so many churches are “changing” and becoming more contemporary, more like the world, the change agents, heretics, and other detractors of the Church of Christ revel in the delusion that they have “won.” Is their supposed victory filled with the spirit of Christ or merely a lust for the world? Is their supposed victory truly Christ-centered or man-centered? Want to know who the real winners are?

1. Those who are willing to hear the Word (John 6:45 KJV).

2. Those who believe the Word (John 3:16 KJV).

3. Those who repent of their sins (Luke 13:3 KJV).

4. Those who confess that Jesus is Lord (Matt. 10:32 KJV).

5. Those who are baptized for remission of sins (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21 all KJV).

6: Those who faithfully follow the New Testament to the letter, from Matt 1:1 (KJV) to Rev. 22:21 (KJV).

Those who have difficulty accepting warnings of several months ago about the Change Movement will have even further difficulty accepting the New Testament, which was written some 2,000 years ago.

Dr. Crump,
Have you changed the 5 acts into 6, and thus become a change agent?

Please accept this question in the humor it was given!!

EW

Who's changed anything? Look again at this list of the real WINNERS. The first five winners on the list are those who have taken the five steps to salvation. Those five steps haven't changed, for the New Testament hasn't changed (hint: the five steps are deduced by studying the New Testament). The sixth winners on the list are those who, now with faith in their salvation, live Christ-centered lives every day according to the entire New Testament. It's not enough just to take the five steps and say, "I'm now saved," then shirk it all. The remainder of the Christian life must follow the entire New Testament in all things that Christ commanded us (Matt. 28:20 KJV). But you knew that all along. I regret that you find "humor" in all this.

Dr. Crump,

There is humor in everthing. I see you don't have much in you. On a serious note, could you tell me how many "commands" are found in the NT.

EW

Jesus said, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, (even) unto the end of the world" (Matt. 28:19-20 KJV). It was Jesus who used a form of the word "command." The New Testament contains His commands, given directly by Him or indirectly through the apostles' epistles.

The "number" of commands He gave to us is irrelevant, and I think you know that. Have I counted them? No. Why should I? Why should you? Should we obey only three or four instead of, say, five or ten? The important thing is that we obey ALL of them. And saying, "I can't obey ALL of Jesus' commands until I know exactly how many there are" just won't wash as a weak attempt to be humorous. If you study the New Testament, those commands will become a part of your life, and you will think, not in terms of how many there are, but in how you can live up to them as a whole. Living up to them will be far more important than worrying about their number. My friend, I hope you will take Jesus' commands as serious business and not waste precious time trying to count their number for purposes of being witty and "humorous."

Yes, friend, there is humor in life, but with some subjects, humor is inappropriate. I think you know that, too.

Donnie,
Perhaps you should read ALL of Hebrews 13. There's a good message for all of us.

HEB 13:1 Keep on loving each other as brothers. 2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it. 3 Remember those in prison as if you were their fellow prisoners, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.

HEB 13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. 5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,

"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you."

HEB 13:6 So we say with confidence,

"The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid.
What can man do to me?"

HEB 13:7 Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

HEB 13:9 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them. 10 We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat.

HEB 13:11 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore. 14 For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.

HEB 13:15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise--the fruit of lips that confess his name. 16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

HEB 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

HEB 13:18 Pray for us. We are sure that we have a clear conscience and desire to live honorably in every way. 19 I particularly urge you to pray so that I may be restored to you soon.

HEB 13:20 May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

HEB 13:22 Brothers, I urge you to bear with my word of exhortation, for I have written you only a short letter.

HEB 13:23 I want you to know that our brother Timothy has been released. If he arrives soon, I will come with him to see you.

HEB 13:24 Greet all your leaders and all God's people. Those from Italy send you their greetings.

HEB 13:25 Grace be with you all.

Eddie,

Thanks for the message. (A portion of your beginning paragraph is appropriate; so, this post is titled based on your statement: “There’s a good message for all of us.”)

When proponents of the Change Movement are challenged, one of their defenses against those of us who are opposed to changes that are controversial in nature and have no redeeming value is the accusation that love is absent among the opposing brethren.

While I have maintained all along that LOVE—which one either does have or does not have—is not the issue whatsoever. Well, I still believe that LOVE is not the issue. So, then, if LOVE is not the issue, what is the issue? ANSWER: changes being forced upon those who do not welcome or want or need them. However, the reminder from Eddie has made it even clearer for me. The explanation follows.

I realize that changes in doctrine to accommodate the denominational neighbors and friends are a part of the Change Movement scheme. This part of the slick maneuver by the change agents is often overshadowed by the more obvious changes, such as changes related to “worship content.”

O.K., let’s put aside doctrinal issues for now. So, we’re getting to the more obvious issue—and many call it changes in “worship style.” My contention is that any reference to the word “style” is deceptive—change agents, of course, are known to deceive. The word “content” is the accurate description of the enforced changes in “worship.”

Now back to LOVE. What if the current “Worship Leader” had not taken upon himself or had not been allowed to take the lead in doing his self-serving thingy called rhythmic handclapping? What if he had not introduced his elite musical group called “Praise Team” [with microphones - - - > = < - - - performance] into the assembly? What if he had only rejected certain erotic “praise” songs and unscriptural musical pieces written by Twila and others in the money-venturing Contemporary Christian Music industry?

Above all, if there was only LOVE among the change movers? The change-at-any-cost-for-any-cause proponents should have known that many members of a congregation being intruded upon would be OFFENDED!!! As in Madison’s case, WHAT IF there had been LOVE on the part of the intruders in the first place? Could the rift and the upheaval been avoided? Guess what? No … no … no one would have to guess. The answer is clear.

By the way, you would think that by now, all the current elders at this congregation should have learned more about sensitive issues. Well, a few of them haven’t yet. During the singing of the “dismissal” song titled, “Take the Lord with You,” two “new” elders [one of whom had led the “Shepherd’s Prayer” prior] were clapping their hands to the beat of the music on the stage right before the congregation. “Take the Lord with you everywhere you go. In the street, in the home, on the job [… and what about the jobless…], all alone, highways, byways….”

Donnie

Well, I have to agree with most of what you said. (Did I just say that??) Especially the part about "forced" change. They were warned that changes made too quickly would result in exactly what happened. I'm not opposed to change. I do not believe Madison is doing anything un-scriptual, however I am opposed to the way it was done. I am also opposed to the way Concerned Members gets it's message across. I am opposed to the way you attack people, and not the problem. I also do not think people that have NEVER set foot in Madison should have any opinion at all.

I am also opposed to any institution that has a "staff infection"

Donnie, Am I still classified as a "change agent?"

EW.

I have just posted an article taken rom “The Christian Chronicle” (cf. thread: “A Better Suggestion—Mark and Avoid!”). It is titled: “Love and truth the way to unity.” Personally, I question the achievability of such a resolution, good as it sounds maybe. While I believe that the list is not exhaustive enough, it’s a better list of factors to consider—much better—than to simply say that there’s only one controversial element in why certain congregations have experienced division and alienation of brethren, i.e., change in “worship style.” The expression “worship style” is in itself very misleading because what’s actually happening is in the change in “worship content”—the culture-driven rather than the divine-driven content in the messages in many of the songs and in the milk sermons.

Here’s the list from the article, “Love and truth the way to unity” (The Christian Chronicle)”:

“The tensions have developed around many issues that have been around for centuries, but some are uniquely related to the Restoration views of the church. The principal questions on the table for debate seem to deal with the following matters:

• Authority and inerrancy of Scripture
  
  
• Translations of the Bible
  
  
• Biblical interpretation that discounts many teachings/practices as reflections of first-century culture
  
  
• Music: a cappella singing led by praise teams, with the use of instrumental music for special occasions
  
  
• Confusing traditional practices and divine authority
  
  
• Shifting from elder-led to ministerial staff-led churches
  
  
• View that what one believes is unimportant — only one’s sincerity
  
  
• Urban churches vs. rural/small town churches;
  
  
• Attitudes about connections with those not in “Churches of Christ”
  
  
• The name “Church of Christ” and its history.
  
  

These questions pose serious obstacles to perfect unity, but as people with a rich heritage of logical thinking and analysis we should have the necessary tools to work out our differences. As people devoted to Biblical authority and truth we are accustomed to searching for truth with open Bible and minds….”

_____________________________________

How many of these factors have affected the Madison congregation? I will not mention the obvious again, but there is one factor that’s worth your consideration. Is the main reason why the elders at Madison refuse or are unable to solve the still-controversial “Praise Team” issue and the heavy concentration on the “Worship Ministry” [unheard of in the New Testament apostolic age—perhaps “Worship Ministry” is the apostleship replacement in the contemporary world] is that of the “shifting from elder-led to ministerial staff-led church[…]” factor? (Sorry about the long-winded question—please reread the question.)

In other words, who rules [at] the Madison congregation?

Donnie

To rule: power or mode of directing; authority; to govern; to decide authoritatively.

To lead: to show the way; to guide; to direct.

To provide one answer to your question I don't believe there are any rulers at Madison. I believe there is an eldership that leads. Therefore, one may follow or freely go in another direction.

And now I have a question: There is a continous reference to Romans concerning mark and avoid. Donnie, I see that you mark most prevalent yet you don't seem to avoid. Why just practice half of a command?

On November 6, the “musical worship” concert portion of the “contemporary” assembly began with “Leaning on the Everlasting Arms” (#394). [#394 means that it is from a hymnbook—in contrast to “notebook #” something.] Wow! A hymn … hmmm!

Not so fast. When the program indicates the names of Keith Lancaster, Steve Smith & Jonas Weathers (along with the 16-member Praise Team), then, one would suspect that it’s SHOWTIME with the overpowered “congregational” singing in the background!

(Sidenote: The “Worship Ministry,” I’m sure, experiments with a number of things to ensure that performances are at their best. As far as I know, Keith’s musicians, still with their microphones—these are necessary in order to perform—do not wear their “choir” uniforms. Nor are they on stage [not yet] facing the congregation. The seating arrangement—the staff members tried it across two rows side by side, and now have gone to the front two rows, one in front of the other.)

To be continued…

Another song—“So won’t you sign me up, sign me up for the Christian Jubilee. Oh, won’t you write my name, put it on the roll, ‘cause I’ve been changed….” [‘cause? … is this baby talk or contemporary English?]

Yet another song—“Days of Elijah”; although it is a song about Old Testament characters—Elijah, Moses, Ezekiel, David [and that’s fine]—it is a musical piece turned into a musical EXERCISE so that the professional performers can repeat a line 15 or so times without messing up. Here’s the line repeated so many times with the notes (do re mi) appended to give you an idea of how this portion is sung [… singing eighth notes at 4/4 time sig. should be pretty close to the original music]:

There’s no God like Jehovah. [mi mi mi mi mi mi mi mi]
There’s no God like Jehovah. [fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa]
There’s no God like Jehovah. [mi mi mi mi mi mi mi mi]
There’s no God like Jehovah. [re re re re re re re re]
There’s no God like Jehovah. [so so so so so so so so]
There’s no God like Jehovah. [la la la la la la la la]
There’s no God like Jehovah. [so so so so so so so so]
There’s no God like Jehovah. [so so so so so so so so]
There’s no God like Jehovah. [high do do do do do do do do]
There’s no God like Jehovah. [do do do do do do do do]
There’s no God like Jehovah. [do do do do do do do do]
There’s no God like Jehovah. [ti ti ti ti ti ti ti ti ti]
There’s no God like Jehovah. [high mi mi mi mi mi mi mi mi]
There’s no God like Jehovah. [high fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa]
There’s no God like Jehovah! [high mi mi mi mi mi mi mi mi]

“Don’t Be Afraid” was being sung while the children age 2-4th grade leave the rest of the family to go to “Canaan’s Land” for THEIR OWN WORSHIP “service.” [Which is worse: splitting the congregation into “traditional” vs. “contemporary” … OR segregating the precious little ones from their parents and other members of the family for some advanced community church indoctrination?]

You must be informed that “Don’t Be Afraid” actually has some musical “instruction” to know exactly when to perform “Clap Clap.” I kid you not. It’s written by no other than the jolly “clappy” music fellow—Keith Lancaster (see notebook #133). So, it goes like this: “Be strong and courageous and do not be afraid. [Clap Clap].” The musical piece also has other “sound effects”—the other instructions are: “V1, Chorus, V2, Chorus, mod up 1 whole step … repeat V1, repeat Chorus 3 times (softer each time).” If you’re having trouble grasping the visual and sound effects, don’t worry, it’s a part of the programmed musical worship.

Donnie

nobody cares donnie.

If you dont like it, for god sake just go to granny white or someplace else. You are going to stroke out over this stuff my friend. I bet your blood pressure is 400!
Chill dude.

Donnie,

Are you telling me that there are actually 16 members of a praise team at Madison? I thought the whole reason that these c of C's allowed praise teams was to "help" members that didn't read music to hear their individual part. How can one do that with a choir?

16 members is larger than most church choirs. As a school choir member, I always knew that was the weakest of excuses as you can't hear the individual part with four members singing at one time.

So, Madison has a choir? Do they dance and clap as they sing? Wow. A show! How entertaining that must be. To think, the 1st Century Christians refused to behave in such a manner as it was paganistic and against God's commands (per their own letters). The Apostles must have been such fuddy duddies. How Madison must laugh at the Apostles and their old-fashion, boring beliefs.

If there was nothing wrong with clapping and acting so "filled with the spirit", why did the clapping die down when other members were attending? Embarrassed, quilty? Both?

Keep up the work! Someone will hear the Truth.

PPB,

It didn’t cross my mind why the flag was displayed this Sunday. I just thought … what’s next—the statue of the Virgin Mary? I’m looking at the musical “worship” guide, and the top line says, “Veterans Recognition” [by Phil Barnes]. Besides the “thanksgiving” offering for the building debt (since the church upheaval when many alienated brethren left), the other “special” occasion was the “Veterans Day” thingy.

Well, someone wrote:

“I don't know if you were able to be at services when they began. It began with an instrumental and vocal version of GOD BLESS THE USA, complete with clappers that stood at the appropriate times and started clapping again at different times during the song. It was accompanied by a slide show of military personnel, and then veterans that were in the assembly were introduced at its conclusion. More cheap emotionalism….”

In regard to clapping, I have felt many times that rhythmic clapping is experiencing a slow death at Madison (and probably so somewhere else where this has become part of the “beliefs and practices”). Substitute song leaders usually do not have this clapping issue. It is Mr. Keith, the musical “Worship Leader,” who leads in this extracurricular activity. He is the one that selects the music that makes you wanna sway and dance. [I wasn’t supposed to be watching other folks do their thingy …, but I saw Mr. Barnes swaying to the music and clapping with the left hand holding the Bible—though not as charismatically as his wife Kim does. And this must have been during the singing of “That’s Why We Praise Him [notebook #87]” or “God Has Smiled On Me [notebook #64].”

Yes, indeed, the choir has 16 members. However, do not call it a “choir”—the “traditional” folks might get offended … “they” say. It is the Praise Team [a.k.a. God’s singers?].

… to be continued

i want BCV where claping in worship is a sin that will send you str8 to hellfire.
And dont give me some bull about jews in the old testement clapping and hissing. We are not to use the OT as an example, right? And Ken, please restain yourself from posting another missive that is unintelligable, ok? Can you do that?

PPB, are you for real, or are you just play acting here Nobody can be as rigid as you. Pull that stick out.

edit that last sentence donnie and your a coward of the 1st order!

Mr. Cruz,
I find myself a little annoyed when Veterans Day is refered to as a thingy. I do not know if your a veteran or not. I am a veteran of the Vietnam War, my father is a veteran of WWII and Korea and my uncle was killed in the Phillipines in May of 1945. If not for the American military you and I would likely be posting in German or Japanese. Most of the time I ignore your slurs but this time I find it very condescending.
I usually find it easier to converse verbally, therefore I intend to greet you graciously and kindly at the next Madison service that we attend together. I know who you are but you only know me from these post. Although I find little that we agree on there is nothing wrong to agreeably disagree.

Wayne Jackson makes a statement regarding solos in the church in his article "Are Choirs and Solos Authorized for the Church Assembly?"
Christian Courier: Archives
Thursday, September 21, 2000

I find his logical and grammatically correct interpretation of Paul's verses to be one of the best around (other than the one's printed on this site, of course!). He states it so much better than I ever could:

"Historically, it has been quite evident to most Bible students that the type of music authorized for church assemblies by the New Testament Scriptures is that of congregational singing.

Paul wrote:

“And be not drunken with wine, wherein is riot, but be filled with the Spirit; speaking one to another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord” (Ephesians 5:18,19 ASV).
“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts unto God” (Colossians 3:16 ASV).

There are several important things here. First, the language of these verses is such that it involves a plurality of individuals, entire congregations, in the obligations enjoined. The imperatives, “be filled,” and “let dwell,” along with the explanatory plural participles, “speaking,” “singing,” “making melody,” “teaching,” etc., indicate the activity of the church as a whole, rather than individual action, or that of a small portion of the church, as suggested by the solo/choral arrangement.

Second, the terms heautois (“one to another” – Ephesians 5:19) and heautou (“one another” – Colossians 3:16) are grammatically classified as reciprocal, reflexive pronouns.

According to noted grammarians Dana and Mantey (131), such a usage, as in the contexts under consideration, represents “an interchange of action” in the verbs employed.

J.B. Lightfoot (219) has noted that the reflexive nature of these pronouns emphasizes the “idea of corporate unity.” When the church as a whole sings, there is “speaking one to another;” when one group is active (the choir), and another group is passive (the listening audience), there is no interchange of action.

Choir and solo music does not fulfill the requirements of these contexts. Godet affirms that Ephesians 5:18ff and Colossians 3:16 refer to hymns that are sung by “the whole Church” (281).

Third, the participles “speaking,” “singing,” etc., explain the manner of implementing the imperatives (commands) “be filled” and “let dwell.”

Consequently, if one group (the chorus) may sing and praise God for another group (the audience), that is equivalent to arguing that one group may “be filled” with the Spirit for another, or the choir may “let [the word] dwell” in them as representatives for the balance of the congregation..."

Donnie,

You mentioned "the 16-member Praise Team staff." Are you trying to mislead people that the Praise Team is part of the "paid staff?" That's how it looks to me.

It isn't true, of course.

E.B.

E.B.,

I think some of the other staff members of the “Worship Ministry” [ ], besides Mr. Keith, are paid. No, I don’t believe that the “Praise Team” members are paid for their professionally rehearsed worship services.

Donnie

...and there are 16 now? There were only 8 when I was there.

E.B.

E.B.,

You seemed very surprised. Yes, there are 16 now. I was informed just recently by someone who now attends another congregation. Accordingly, that was the plan when this fellow Christian left Madison about a year ago. This info was confirmed by another respondent soon after that—that it is currently 16. So, I noticed this past Sunday on my way out the building there were 16 men and WOMEN [co-leaders] who were still busy performing their after-service extra curricular activities and entertaining with their handheld microphones while folks were leaving the premises.

The reason why I didn’t notice the difference between the 8-member and the 16-member choir groups was due to the loudness of the team. When there were eight, their sound engineers [accordingly] had the sound system rigged up where it would sound as though it was like listening to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir [now … I’m just making up the Mormon stuff to illustrate the point]. Do you get my point? The 8-member team was so loud and overpowering to begin with that congregational singing could not (and still cannot) be heard up in the balcony at least. My observation is that congregational singing is not like it used to be prior to the Praise Team era. Why should it be, when the professional singers are singing to and for the congregation anyway?

Donnie

A "normal" working man can lead the singing and many could do a good job.

Therefore, isn't most of Keith's salary and other supporting "ministries" spent concocting tunes, programming and rehearsing and training? I suspect that lighting, sound system etc, etc, etc can be logged against the Teamsters.

DECONSTRUCTING A CAPPELLA, CONGREGATIONAL SINGING

For a century and a half our brethren have striven to improve and refine our a cappella singing. Men with fine musical training and Biblical knowledge edited excellent, scripturally sound hymnals. We taught our members to sight read and sing four-part harmony. We trained our song leaders to pitch their selections correctly and properly count the time. We instructed them how to choose their selections and coordinate them with the lesson of the hour. We had singing schools and practice sessions so we might teach and admonish one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs and sing with grace in our hearts (Col. 3:16).

In days past, our religious neighbors often visited out assemblies and were impressed with our ability to sing the lovely hymns of praise to Jehovah in a way that thrilled those present. Often they commented positively on the quality and uplifting nature of the singing.

Now a fad is sweeping through our churches. Some have borrowed from their neighbors the practice of projecting the words of their hymns on screens before the congregation. In a recent service in a large congregation using such equipment, I observed the following:

• Of the nine songs sung, only two were traditional hymns known by all. Seven were choruses popular within youth camps and devotions.
  
  
• The words of songs were projected without musical scores or notations.
  
  
• While each pew had an ample supply of hymnals, the numbers were not announced nor posted.
  
  
• Therefore, many of the older members sat observing while those who knew the melodies sang for them.
  
  
• The youth devotional songs were difficult to sing with their unique variations and rhythms. Teens and young adults knew them; most of those above 50 did not.
  
  
• The song leader had a good voice and knew how to pitch and lead the songs properly. Rather than stand on the podium where he could be seen by all and direct them, he chose to stand on the floor with his praise team and only those in the first few rows could see his hands.
  
  

The hymns of the church should be a tie that binds the old and the young of the church together. Today I recall my mother singing, Farther Along and The Old Rugged Cross and other sweet hymns while rocking her babies to sleep. I remember my grandfather who was an elder, singing the great hymns of Zion. But the campfire songs, known and loved by the young, are unknown by senior members of the church. Rather than being a unifying experience, they create a chasm between these vital elements of the congregation.

We do not say that projecting the words on a screen is wrong. Really it is no different than each having the words printed in a book. Hymns are not wrong because they are new or preferred by the young. It is the combination of the all the above that is detrimental to the singing of the church.

It is no wonder that promoters of such programs need a praise team to take up the slack and supply that which has lost from our congregational singing. Very likely some will eventually have a choir to provide the quality singing they desire. Still, others will feel the need to bring in a musician and an instrument to make up the difference. An acorn planted eventually becomes an oak, but a weed seed will grow into a noxious weed. Seeds of change will eventually produce their unwelcome fruit. JHW

”It does not cease to astonish us that Christians generally, and preachers especially are now holding views and making arguments that we opposed and refuted when advanced by denominationalism … fifty and a hundred years ago. Like Paul we (must) declare again the gospel which we preached.” (G. C. Brewer)

__________________________________

CHRISTIANITY: THEN AND NOW
John Waddey, Editor
Vol. 5, Number 4, December 1, 2005

geez....you are STILL on here spilling out your vitriol, slamming the "church". You need to find more hobbies in your life! The times ALWAYS change. I remember when the Stamps-Baxter songs were put down because they were "new". The youth today DO NOT identify with the old hymns. The church needs to connect with EVERYONE. There is nothing wrong with mixing a few hymns in with mostly new stuff. IF all you got is the "these new songs are killing the church"...then you got to get a new game. Your existing one is really OLD.

JD

Concerned Members: "Thus saith the Lord..."

Detractors: "Get a life!"

Concerned Members: "The Bible says..."

Detractors: "Take a flying leap off a tall building!"

Concerned Members: "Do not preach a different doctrine or change the church to make it more like the world. See 1 John 2:15-17, 2 John 9-11, and James 4:4 (KJV)."

Detractors: "Bleeaahh!!!"

Times change, but the Word of God, the New Testament, does not change with the times. People change the Word of God to make it fit with the times, when the times fail to heed the commands of the New Testament.

Should the church "connect" with everyone? Instead, how about everyone becoming obedient and submitting themselves to the commands of Christ, so that everyone connects with the church? The Word of God, as upheld by the church, is the standard for all to follow, regardless of the "times" and the generations.

"New stuff?" Nothing wrong with it, as long as the "new" doesn't reflect the trends and culture of a worldly society. For example, tacking "Christian" lyrics onto rock music will hardly hallow the rock music. The latter has a long, significant history of being associated with sex, drugs, violence, and rebellion. As far as worship and the church are concerned, stay away from that which is culture-oriented and adhere to that which is New Testament-oriented.

The “First Worship” program usually occupies the front of the 4-page guide. But this time (Dec. 25, 2005), it was the silhouette picture of Mary and Joseph and the baby Jesus in the cradle titled, “Behold Your King” bolded.

A line with date and time on the back page is normally formatted, e.g., as follows:

December 25, 2005 . . . . . . Second Worship . . . . . . 10:30 am

But on “Christmas Day,” the contemporary “worship guide” listed the following information on page 4:

December 25, 2005, 10 a.m.
Christmas Day

Silent Night #577 . . . . . . . . . . . . . Keith Lancaster
Reading: Matthew 1:18-25 . . . . . . . . Keith E. Hall
Angels We Have Heard On High
Love Feast
Hark The Herald Angels Sing #202
Prayer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Pat Burch
O Come All Ye Faithful #464
Communion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Terry Ashley
Contribution. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Ashley
Why Did My Savior Come To Earth? #784
I Stand In Awe (notebook) #16
Great Are You Lord (notebook) #9
Beautiful Star of Bethlehem
Message: “Behold Your King”. . . . . . . Phil Barnes
There’s Not a Friend #680
Shepherd’s Prayer . . . . . . . . . . . . Chris Gingles
Joy To The World #376

Yes, punctuation marks and other per “Worship Ministry” guidelines similar to how “stuff” on the sacred big wide screens should be displayed were followed. [And, yes, there is a “ministry” called “Worship Ministry” in Saddleback Community Church’s Pastor Rick Warren’s new and improved “New Testament” manual.]

A few “Christmas” songs!!! No new surprises there. Some of the songs, although originally written from not-entirely-biblical perspectives, do contain some essential messages concerning the Savior and the King and man’s need for redemption. One striking difference, however, is that in times past during the holiday season, there wouldn’t be an instance in sermons delivered in which the physical birth of Jesus was briefly mentioned leading up to the point wherein his suffering and death on the cross was the stronger emphasis. In addition, these “Christmas” songs would be sung throughout the year—not just around “Christmas”—an indication that in the gathering of the saints, the celebration of the pagan- and Roman-Catholic-Church-originated Christmas observance was NOT being conformed to. Instead, while the secular and the somewhat-pagan-influenced religious world was in observance of “Christmas,” churches of Christ [and some of the non-conforming religious groups] adhered to the New Testament principle and teaching that Christ’s shedding of blood on the cross of Calvary—not his physical birth—was and is the driving force that leads mankind to repentance and salvation.

In today’s alliance with secularism and the dictates of the post-modern/contemporary religion-ism, certain ones among churches of Christ (feel free to fill in the blanks with names of “mega” Community Churches in the brotherhood), do now observe “Christmas.” In the sermon by Phil Barnes, while his message was laced with personal and other stories of experiences [as usual] to entertain and make the audience laugh, much time was expended on the physical aspects surrounding the “physical” birth. If there were many non-members in the crowd, the opportunity to explain and express God’s plan of salvation was lost. Just because the name of Jesus and some other “religious” terms were mentioned here and there—as it is now the NORM in today’s [contemporary] gatherings—that just would NOT do the job and could not be equated with God’s command to “REPENT and BE BAPTIZED SO THAT” the blood of the Lamb will WASH AWAY one’s sins and be added to the Lord’s church. The gospel of Christ is now diluted and deluded.

Even during the observance of the Lord’s Supper—following guidelines of the “Worship Ministry” to have to deliver a man-contrived message [usually an earthly story or experience] prior to partaking of the bread and the cup—the presiding elder had to pose a question or questions that led some in the audience to “react” with a chuckle or whatever. I thought that the emblematic significance of the observance somewhat dissipated. Fortunately, for the sake of the “senior” folks who would generally be offended by it, there was no leading solo by a female vocalist on the “Praise Team” of a “Communion song.” There was no humming. There was no o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-ing, either, during the commemoration of the Lord’s suffering and death. Just wishing that the presiding elder, in an “attempt” to illustrate the Savior’s love, had not asked one of a number of questions, such as, “What would you have done for me [the elder] had you seen me [the elder] about to be run over while crossing the street?”

Oh, yes, the “contemporary” program had to throw in at least a couple of “hymns” to pacify the visiting folks from the “traditional” group. The rule at 10:30 has been to sing [perform music] mostly Contemporary Christian hits. Yeah, include a “hymn” once-in-a-while so that it’s NOT completely contemporary … but … be sure that the selected hymn—just as many of the “contemporary musical pieces” are—would be very difficult to sing. And, yes, an opportunity for the elite “Praise Team”—the Musical Worship Leader’s performers to really shine and be musically entertaining.

This is getting somewhat extensive and boring, perhaps. Let me just state that this gathering was really a “combined” assembly. The usual time for the “contemporary” group is at 10:30 a.m.—not at 8:00 a.m. You decide whether or not this attempt was to conform to the decision by some mega churches (like Otter Creek Community Church) to cancel “worship services” on “Christmas Day” in the year 2005 or to cancel all Bible classes and meet only for “worship,” as in Madison’s case. At Madison, the combined gathering was at 10:00 a.m.—a time closer to the contemporary hour, instead of at 8:30 a.m. So, this might have been a situation in which the smaller “traditional” group was being invited to assemble with the dominant “contemporary” group. Hmmm! Hmmm! Hmmm!

At any rate, the Musical Worship Leader was in his best behavior. And so was his elite group of musical singers. Whether or not the 16-member choir (“Praise Team”) members were scattered in the audience or still seated in the two front rows, there was only a “slight” evidence of performances. Slight—in the sense that AFTER the first verse [you know … when the other verses are not that familiar to everyone else], of certain songs, such as “Angels We Have Heard on High” or “Beautiful Star of Bethlehem,” the elite team dominated the singing. Of course, with the help of unfamiliar lines displayed on the screen!

Now, Keith behaved pretty well. Not much of the wagging of arms from-east-to-west; no antics; no coaching, prompt or cue to the young people or the audience for a big applause after “making a joyful noise”; no programmed, rehearsed “joy” of rhythmic clapping during singing [obviously since there was not a song to clap to]; no solo; no unintelligible sounds to accompany the singing; no “mourning that God turned into dancing”; no swaying to the music; no feigned looking up above to offer a short prayer after a performance. There was some unnecessary interjection of expressions by the “worship leader” in between music lines.

ABOVE ALL, the Praise Team musicians had their microphones hidden, perhaps, behind the baptistery [this one, I concede, is made up]. It was a serious attempt on the part of the “Worship Ministers” NOT to offend the invited guests! After all, “UNITY” of the divided groups was the underlying objective. In fact, an elder once again declared: “Look at the manifestation of unity in the bond of peace … we are witnessing [numerical] growth in attendance; the Lord has blessed us [as evidenced] in our financial contributions….”

Know what? The goal of some $67,000 prior to the upheaval in 2001 [and what it should be now taking into consideration the rate of inflation] has not been/is not being met in recent years. Contributions have been around $39,000 on the average—maybe a little more than that.

Know what? The combined attendance on this December 25, 2005 did not appear to have exceeded the usual attendance AT the 10:30 assembly ALONE in previous years. This is judging on the seating capacity in the balcony. In years past, the balcony in ONE ASSEMBLY ALONE [at 10:30 when it was “traditional”] would be full of attendants. This time, there were still several rows of empty pews in the back of the balcony.

Conclusion: If the “Musical Worship Leader” and his “Praise Team” in instances like this were on their best “behavior,” shouldn’t they be able to continue this example format at other times—if the church leaders are really, really interested in the UNITY—NOT UNION—of members in the spirit and in the bond of peace? Also … there was a celebration of “Christmas” in a SUBTLE way.

Donnie

Besides that error in fact that Otter Creek is not a Community Church...

I noticed that the Otters have gone ALL THE WAY: not only have they "erected" the well-known phallic or Asherah pole, it is a stepped pyramid just like the Tower of Babylon and the Jerusalem Temple. All of the FAMILIES or COMMUNITIES prove that they want you to be conjoined twins, bonded and burdened by those performing CLERGY roles 2,000 years after Jesus died to remove the LAW, lawyers and Levitical Warrior Musicians.

Many are now in training for the Missional Church which DOES NOT mean missionary. God as a COMMUNITY or A Family of Gods was invented in the 20th century and popularized by Max Lucado ditto headed by Rubel Shelly.

Leonard Allen described how the Trinity illustrates the relational character of God. He is not merely God the law-giver but One who gives OF Himself in His Son and Holy Spirit.

The Trinity illustrates that God is "loving relationship."

The church, formed under God and in response to Him, reflects the community of the Trinity.

When this doctrine falls, we are prone to sectarianism, legalism, authoritarian leadership, spiritual triumphalism, spiritual elitism, mechanical understandings of baptism and the Lord's Supper, and morbid fondness for controversy.

No one in the history of the world before H. Leo Boles, David Lipscomb College and the Gospel Advocate fell into the blasphemy of identifying God as a FAMILY or TRIBE or a STANDING COMMITTEE. There MUST be three gods because otherwise God would get lonely. And God would not have anyone to TRUST with His deepest secrets to help LIFT UP GOD. I just wonder WHEN God decided that He was lonely? The Family of GODS was the pagan and Catholic TRIAD of Father, Mother and little infant child. The SPIRIT if a person MUST be the MOTHER and that may be why charismatic (musical ) "schools of the Bible" turned into "theaters for holy entertainment" hallucinate that the SEPARATED SPIRIT person guides them into sowing discord and restoring the prophesied end-time Babylonianism
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The COMMUNITY or FAMILY concept is to fool the fools. By going MUSICAL which is outlawed by God and common sense to any one who grasps that ekklesia is SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE and like the synagogue HAD NO PRAISE SERVICE because it was outlawed in "the church in the wilderness.

How could you be more SECTARIAN than to deliberately sow discord to give A CRUST OF BREAD to a priest-craft which has been OBSOLETED? How could you be more LEGALISTIC than to use "music" as a WORKS-INTENSIVE, worship of talent always known to be the world's OLDEST profession with dysfunctional people claiming to have powers with the gods? How could you be MORE triumphal than using THEATRICAL PERFORMERS where the prophecy of JUDAS trying to triumph over Jesus was a MUSICAL triumph as known by anyone wanting to read.

How could you be more ELITIST than to have CLERGY MUSICIANS which is called "the oldest heresy largely pervading the church?"

Rubel Shelly and John York:Just as identity in Christ is always COMMUNITY identity, our reading of Scripture becomes a COMMUNITY READING as well. We GIVE UP the right of individual interpretation and take on the accountability of SHARED READING.

While we still have access to reading as individuals, we stop asking, "What does this mean to me?"--as though there is such an isolated meaning. Instead we have a GROUP MENTALITY that asks, "What does this mean to US?" we lay aside INDIVIDUAL interpretations precisely because they are inevitably argumentative and divisive.

When you give up the FREEDOM CHRIST died to give you to give you rest from the BURDEN LADERS you see what you hallucinate. You will see the CULT mentality of the COMMUNITY church which is modeled after the Wilderness Wandering where the EXODUS fad believes was PATTERNISTIC for church organization AND worship. Fact is, the clergy which had been TURNED OVER to worship the heavenly host performed the rituals. That quarantined THE CONGREGATION Outside the gates to the synagogue where singing and instruments were OUTLAWED. The READ or rehearsed the Word just as Paul defines WORSHIP: then, they went home without having to pay the ADDED BURDEN or TAX. They forget that JESUS PAID IT ALL.

Mike Armour at Riverside About two weeks back, we talked about God calling us in community. We were talking about the principle of trust – that glue that holds community together.

"You show me yours and I will show you mine." This is part of the SHEPHERDING or Discipling Dilemma where you must TRUST the community with all of your secrets which WILL be used against you. Lynn Anderson confesses to the Promise Keepers (Crossroads) where you are discipled about your FINANCES and SEXUAL thoughts during the week. The SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE or Synagogue GATHERED ITSELF together to study the Bible and pray. By the very definition of ekklesia, when the ASSEMBLY disbanded it ceased to be an assembly. School was out and one's private life or diverse opinions were not subject of DOUBTFUL DISPUTATIONS or dialog by any ON THE DOLE clergy person or SHEPHERD.

Mike Armour But we noted that throughout history, God has called his people, not as individuals, but as individuals within community with responsibility to the community, which we reminded ourselves of just a few moments ago when we partook of the communion,

This group often calls it Holy Communion meaning Eucharist The Lord's Supper is a PREACHING or TEACHING activity to show forth the DEATH of Christ. How can a GROUP MENTALITY discern the Body of Christ or remember?

God called Abraham OUT of his community religious system which was the PATTERNISM for many national religions to be repeated in the end times according to Revelation 18.

God called Moses to lead the people OUT of pagan Egypt.

Mt.11:28 Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

2 Co.6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Re.18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

2Th.3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

Paul was speaking specifically to the MANY who should not be fed if THEY WILL NOT WORK. Paul laid it down as an EXAMPLE and a DIRECT COMMAND that the only way the FREE GOSPEL can have credibility will be by the LIVING STONES giving away and not PEDDLING RETAIL which defines those who CORRUPT the Word:

Mike Armour which is a reaffirmation of our covenant relationship with God and a reaffirmation of our covenant relationship with one another.

Within community, trust is vital because without trust, the community begins to become frayed.

What Paul wants us to understand is that God's having called us to community

means every decision I make, every action I take, every word I say needs to be run through the filter of "will this strengthen this community or will it weaken it? "

Heb.13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Heb.13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

It was prophesied of Christ that HE WILL NOT CRY OUT: that means that He will NEVER CALL AN ASSEMBLY and He never did.

The Greek word EKKLESIA was not a community or family: it was like a COUNTY COURT or a SCHOOL OF HOMER. The ekklesia had NO AUTHORITY to make up its own rules, change the laws or even PROPOSE that any law or tradition be changed. Synagogue is also a Greek word which "had no praise service" because even Moron Monty would gurgle if anyone began to SANG or wave their hands in the air. A more debating assembly was the SYLLAGOS. Jesus picked EKKLESIA and anyone who add music or performance preaching on the backs of people are a PAGAN TEMPLE girls and all.

When a RELIGIOUS FESTIVAL was held the WORSHIP LEADER was OBLIGATED to hire the musicians and singers and dancers and PURCHASE all of the food and pay ALL of the bills. Now, anyone who wants to get PAID would have been called a PARASITE:

Chorêg-ia , hê, A. office or lêitourgia [p. 1999] of a chorêgos, defraying of the cost of the public choruses,

Well, these people have NO ekklesia or church of Christ DNA so they might as well grasp that Christ has removed His candlestick letting them be deluded into thinking they were doing FAMILY things being led by a FATHER. I noticed that we got us some free sking at Steam Boat Springs?

The entertaining drama!

Check this out. It is in the Madison Marcher (Vol. 55, No. 01, January 4, 2006). [I’m not sure whose picture it is on the second page of the man lifting up his “holy” hands. Not really surprising, since certain elders are setting examples of lifting and clapping “holy” hands in front of the assembly anyway. Uh-hmmm … it is no longer an issue in the contemporary gathering. No one is complaining; therefore, it is no longer an attention-getter. Hmmm … no longer it is offensive to anyone.]

Well, let’s not talk about clapping for now.

Here’s the article:

“It all started for me,” Mark Gage states, “when it was announced that the church was going to present a drama production based on the story ‘A Christmas Carol.’ I thought to myself, ‘I have never done this kind of thing before; it might be fun to try something new.’ I do not know why I thought that (others in the drama have said the same thing). My wife, Donna, e-mailed me the next day at work and asked if I had considered trying out. I told her yes, that I had considered the roll [sic] of Scrooge. I decided to give it a shot and called Kelly Hughes and scheduled an audition. The rest is history.

“What was first thought would merely be a fun experience, became a wonderful and powerful journey. The roll [sic] of Scrooge revealed to me attitudes, experiences, and people from my own past. I could have become like Scrooge had it not been for the grace of God. And, because of His everlasting love and faithfulness, I was in the Madison church family—included and loved as if . . . I had always been here.

“. . . We became a family; a united family that was blessed by and filled with the Holy Spirit to proclaim God’s message….” [Please see this link for the picture and the rest of the article: http://www.madisoncofc.org/Marcher/index.aspx ...]

And now … being “filled with the Holy Ghost” to proclaim God’s message? Is this the day of Pentecost all over again? Whoa!

But … it’s only a charismatic fad, isn’t it? Even the “shepherds’ prayers are filled with expressions such as, “May the Holy Spirit fill us and guide us … free us from sins,” etc. What about: “May the Holy Ghost [Holy Spirit] lead this church” … or a leader’s proclamation to the congregants that “miracles still happen today”—whatever THAT means.

What a charismatic experience this past Sunday! At the “Worship Leader’s” cue, there was [I thought what sounded like] congregational rhythmic clapping and hand-lifting and swaying to the moo-sic … in addition to the strong emphasis on the Holy Ghost. [Um … I am trying to make a point here regarding what church members really believe and know about God’s Spirit. Um … what would be the difference in a “regular” church member’s thinking in stating, “Holy Ghost, Breathe on Me” VERSUS “Holy Spirit, Breathe on Me”? Frankly, have you ever thought of it this way before? Huh?

Keith Lancaster, the Moo-sic “Worship” Leader, “led” the following as “invitation” songs:

“Holy Spirit [Ghost], Breathe On Me”

Holy Spirit, breathe on me.
Holy Spirit, let me see
. . . all the things You are,
. . . all the things You want me to be.
Holy Spirit, breathe on me.
[repeat above]
. . . all the things You are,
. . . all the things You want me to be.
Holy Spirit, breathe on me.

“Let Your Spirit Come”

Let Your Spirit come, fall upon me now;
Let Your Spirit come, fall upon me now
And let the rain fall down, pour upon my soul;
Come and wash me now, come and make me whole
Come and make me whole
Let Your Spirit come.

Oh, well, just some of the Charismatic Movement songs, in addition to: “Ain’t no rock … ain’t no bird … ain’t no tree”—a lot of clapping and swaying accompaniment as prompted and encouraged by the moo-sic man.

Lesson to learn here is this—John 14: “[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he [Christ] dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. [18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.” And who was the “another Comforter” promised to His disciples according to this chapter?

Now … back to the drama production. What will the Christmas drama production be like next year?

Don’t forget about the upcoming “Easter Sunday” at Madison. I t will be here soon. Is there going to be another “interactive Easter drama worship”?

“Farther from the truth” … you say? In the same church bulletin issue, there’s an announcement regarding the “New Sunday Morning Class ‘Building a Graceful Marriage’” which began on January 8. I wonder if classes such as studies of “Ephesians … Galatians … Hebrews …” are still taught in churches these days? Or, they, too, have been “taken over” by social and psychology classes [with occasional mention of scriptural references]?

Donnie

It is so good that God has you and others associated with this web-site to help Him know who is following every rule and regulation. It is no wonder why the Church of Christ is dying.

It may surprise detractors to know that the church of Christ is neither dead nor dying. The church that Christ founded through His own death, burial, and resurrection (appropriately known as the “church of Christ”), the pattern for which is outlined in the New Testament, is alive and quite well, despite the efforts of many to overthrow it or replace it with something “modern” and “cool.” Though tens of thousands may forsake the simplicity of the church of Christ for the glitz, glamour, entertainment, and user-friendly (easy) religion by which the denominations lure their converts, the church of Christ will forever remain spiritually pure. The church of Christ does not waver from the eternal principles as stipulated in the New Testament, no matter how “out of touch with the times” those in rebellion against Christ claim those principles are. The church of Christ is neither based on the worldly principle of “bigger is better” nor on “the larger the numbers, the more relevant is the church.” That is, the true church of Christ is neither founded nor based on the quantity of its members. The concept of “quantity” is worldly. The true church of Christ is comprised of members who manifest spiritual quality, who are willing to take the New Testament at face value and gladly follow it to the letter without complaint.

Which church is more pleasing to God: a 50-member church of Christ that earnestly strives to obey the NT to the letter in all things, or a 5,000,000-member denomination bent on keeping its members by doing all it can to make the church more attractive and appealing to the world? (Romans 12:2, James 4:4, 1 John 2:15-17 KJV)

...and Autonomous. The arguments I hear on this web-site remind me of the Pharisee's that Jesus dealt with...Dogmatic, No Grace, My Way or the Highway. This is all about Hermenutic (the Church of Christ)and your intepretation of the Bible. I grew up in the Church of Christ and the reason people are leaving is not because of instrument issues or 3 songs and a prayer, it is becuase Grace is non existent in our attitudes. We have certain checklist and if we don't get it checked off then we are coming up short. We must stop from hiding behind signs that indicate who I am or they are and start hiding behind the cross. The spiritual renewal in America is exciting and people are doing more than punching time cards in the foyer of their buildings.

I guess that people that go to Madison, Richland Hills or any of the other churches you keep up with are on fire for hell. They just can't wait to get there and look forward to punching their ticket every chance they can get. I know some very Godly people at these churches and it is frankly offensive that your website spreads this garbage.

Oh yeah, did I mention the autonomous thing. Did not want to forget that.

Dr. Crump, on your last posting, you said some people want to replace the church with something "modern and cool" as if that were bad. What do you think Jesus did? He replaced the Pharisee's church that obeyed God "to the letter" (your words), with something modern AND cool.

That's why they gained so many converts. And yes, several times in Acts, Luke counts how many people were there, because QUANTITY does matter. That's the reason the great commission exists. To gain quantity AND quality. (baptize, teach, AND make disciples)Christians who say things like "Quality is what matters, God does not care about numbers" are people who go to small churches and need to relieve their guilt for not being evangelistic.

Yes, there is a prevalent belief that "the larger the numbers, the more rlevant the church". That's because it's TRUE! Why do you think Jesus told parables? Because being relevant to people is how you initially reach them. It is not only good for a church to be relevant to it's surrounding culture, it's sinful for it NOT to be. Jesus didn't draw people to himself by lining up hoops for them to jump through. Think about it. He just loved them.

I agree, The church of Christ is not dying. The body of believers who claim Jesus as Savior is actually thriving more than it has in decades. However, Christians who meet in buildings with the name church (or Church if you prefer the capital "C") of Christ really is on life support. It's sad to me because I grew up in that tradition. My family is still in it, but the numbers are really declining. The reason it's sad is because they have refused to become relevant, and lose the Pharisee mindset. There are great people in that tradition, but many are leaving.

I went to a Chruch of Christ college. I am not exaggerating, around half the people I graduated with don't attend a "church of Christ". They have moved to churches (like Saddleback who is slaughtered on this site regularly) that stand on Biblical absolutes and theology, are flexible on matters of opinion and doctrine, and follow the 2 greatest commands- #1 Love God with all your heart, #2 Love people more than yourself. If I'm not mistaken, Jesus seemed to think that those 2 things pretty well covered you.

Concerned Christian had a good point. They are not doing their best to get to Hell. They want people to see what Jesus did for them, believe it, and embrace it. I hope that's what you want. If so, stop treating other denominations like an enemy and let's go save some souls!

Amazed makes it sound like following Christ’s commandments is odious, cumbersome, and boring. Say the words "obedience" and "commandments," and people instead hear "Pharisee" and "legalism."

Christ replaced the cumbersome Mosaic Law, a law comprised of seemingly unending rules and regulations, with the Gospel of grace. We may be free from the Law of Moses, but we are still under a “Law,” the Law of Christ. Keeping commandments did not vanish with grace. Christ laid down specific commandments which must be followed for us to stay within His good grace. Those commandments are the New Testament. Christ never said that once people are “saved,” then they are free to do whatever they please. The NT more than once admonishes us to keep the commandments of Christ, as in John 14:15 and 1 John 5:1-5 (both KJV), for example. Both examples also admonish that obedience to Christ is to be done out of love. Furthermore, we are assured that obeying the commands of God/Christ is (or should be) enjoyable, for His commands are “not grievous” (1 John 5:3). However, those in rebellion against Christ would undoubtedly find His commands as odious, cumbersome, and boring, and would seek ways to alter them or ignore them through change.

Speaking of change, Amazed is certainly correct that it was Christ, not other men, who personally restructured the church of the Pharisees. Therefore, if the church that Christ founded with His own death, burial, and resurrection is imperfect and in such dire need of restructuring again, as the Change Movement seems to believe, then let no one step in to replace Christ—for only He has the absolute authority to change that which He instituted.

Dr. Crump,

One of the interesting points to all this is that we are talking about Christ and His saving grace. In the Book "The Purpose Driven Church", Rick Warren comments that the message of Jesus has not changed, it's the methods in which they are taught must change. What is wrong with that? Utilizing current methods to spread the message of Jesus is a must. For example, Flannel Boards was a method used when I was a kid, but that has no real meaning to kids today. Today kids are given the opportunity to learn by watching a video or something else Modern and New. I have taught many classes at church and camp and have utilized the opportunity to teach with modern tools. Being able to communicate in a way they understand while tying Jesus to it is awesome!

We are still in the reformation and the 1950’s church (A Type of Method/Same Message) did not arrive and have it all figured out. Do you honestly think that the methods you use today are the same as Christ used? If you are honest with yourself you would have to say no. However, the message (I hope) is the same. If you go into a church of Christ in ABC or XYZ their methods of presenting Jesus may be different, but they still have the same goal, Heaven! I used to think just like what this web site says, but that was when I was a kid. I majored in Bible and am just amazed that so many hang onto traditions and speak from an area of authority that frankly sounds like elementary Christianity.

I guess calling Keith Lancaster a “Moo-sic” Minister on the previous thread is Love? And if this is the type of “Love” you are talking about it is no wonder why the c of c fellowship is declining in membership. In fact, my father (Who has a Doctorate in Ministry not Medicine) who preached in the c of c for 32 years got so disgusted with putting out fires of “elementary” arguments around the church and community that he gave it up.

I need to ask, because nearly this entire web site is concerned with what goes on at a building from 10-12 AM and 6-7 PM on a Sunday and of course Wednesday…Do you believe God has a checklist and sits in Heaven every Sunday (and Wednesday) and goes over the “do’s and don’ts or is it possible that He is more concerned with how you live your life following the Greatest Command, Love; and how you treat your fellow man? These “Change Agents” as you call us love the Lord and want to do what is right, and frankly it is so funny how you think we are all out of line. Going to church should be a time of praise and worship with other Christians and I don’t believe God has such a low self esteem that He needs us to show up and make Himself feel better.

Legalistic ugliness is not the answer. Christ’s commands are simple. Go ahead and reread the “Sermon on the Mount” and you will see what a Christian is to be like.

Whether one agrees with what they do at Madison or not is none of yours or concerned members business. How does this affect your life or eternity in any way?

Oh yeah, did I mention Autonomous in a previous thread.