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Ken Sublett
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June 29 2005, 1:29 PM 

Yes, I noticed that Donnie jumped right into this forum with both barrels loaded. I found it encouraging that there was at least ONE person in the Mad world who had a grasp of the Word. He probably would never have posted if he saw the church as a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT.

But, of course, about half of the congregation could ALSO grasp that. One early poster filled in many of the blanks about the fact that the MUSIC word is never used in the Bible connected to a Spirit God.

Isn't that amazingly amazing that ALL of the neo-pagans see "the Holy Spirit as God's song writer and dance master" (Shelly quoting Lucado) and UNIVESAL direct commands for MUSIC AS WORSHIP when there is not ONE jot or tittle which does not associate especially instruments with Satan, prostitutes and Sodomites.

God writes with BLACK ink on WHITE paper and they see WHITE text on BLACK paper. Like Wow (as they say), Awesome! Isn't that PROOF of inspiration and doesn't that give light to Jesus virtually associating the Jewish clergy with ANOTHER SPECIES?

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(no login)

Yall are still at it

June 29 2005, 5:50 PM 

Kenny and Donnie,

I bet someone that you guys would still be at the same old horse hokey shoveling...and I WON!!! It is good to see that at least some of the conservative ultra right wing zealot pharasees are still alive and kicking....well, I guess it is good. It is still good entertainment anyway.

Hey Kenny, did you ever consider that maybe you and Donnie are the ones that have it all wrong and everyone else REALLY gets it???

Have a NICE day!!

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Ken Sublett
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Still yakking!

July 2 2005, 11:21 PM 

You still sanging and twanging? Hey, I visited your temple about 28 years ago! Wow, time flies. I thought back then: "Is this what you get when you get famous?"

Now, you have lost your guy: was it too much musicating or too little? Now, the new guy Wes is a Shelly trained Tony the tiger who thinks that the flakes inside are a gigsaw puzzle to put Tony back together. I can't believe that one can become a PhDuh? and be so Bible drained.

Did you notice: a THESIS on blacks bringing charges against members of the church of Christ. Now, that tells you which away he is pointing.

I wonder if there were NO Baptists involved. I would love to get a copy if you can get one: just send it e-mail.

Now, fella, you are in a heap of trouble. If someone GAVE me your PLANT I would hang myself before accepting it. I feel for the elders: they have manufactured something like a pyramid scam: grow or die.
    Isa 3:4 I will make boys their officials; mere children will govern them.

    Isa 3:5 People will oppress each other--man against man, neighbor against neighbor. The young will rise up against the old, the base against the honorable.

    Isa 3:6 A man will seize one of his brothers at his father's home, and say, "You have a cloak, you be our leader; take charge of this heap of ruins!"

    Isa 3:7 But in that day he will cry out, "I have no remedy. I have no food or clothing in my house; do not make me the leader of the people."

Did you notice that oppress is closely related to sanging and twanging: right into the wine vat where they added more than juice while the harpist played.

Looks like the WIMMIN are pretty much in charge? Hey, didn't anyone tell you that the SURVEY is the MARK of a cult. Hey, THEY already know which away they are DIVERTING you and YOU think that YOU are involved. Now, they gonna spend the widow's bread to bring in a PROFESSIONAL to tell you what the leaders have already decided. If the HEAP OF RUINS is in bad enough shape from the TEAMY singers, they will PROBABLY decide to add a SABBATH service with instrumental music. You MUST add the TITHE too. Now, you watch and see if ole Piney isn't a profit.

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(Login heartsinger)

There is no God like Jehovah

December 15 2006, 4:08 PM 

You have a problem with repeating that? Do you think that there is another god like Jehovah. Why is it wrong to repeat that like you mean it? Tell me please?

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Donnie Cruz
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Taking “a look at some of the ‘scriptural’ songs … sung for years….”

July 2 2005, 10:06 PM 


[My original post of June 18 was titled “The Musical Worship Leader’s Thrill—Live Musical Group Exercise.” Your post was one of the subsequent responses to that post. The first paragraph in your response really caught my attention. It said: “I've got a great idea! Why don't we take a look at some of the ‘scriptural’ songs that churches of Christ have sung for years, since they obviously must not be ‘repetitive’ as defined by writers in this discussion.” Thank you for that insight, James. It prompted me to make this a separate post altogether.]

Let me preface by saying that not all songs in the “hymnbook” necessarily qualify as “psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.” But I must also say that due to the background of many of the contemporary “praise” songs, only a handful of them would fall under the category of “psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.”

The background [of contemporary “praise music”] would make a good separate thread in itself. But I must briefly state that research after research indicates that much of the concept behind contemporary “praise” music has its origin from the “Jesus only” freaks—the hippie generation. [“Hippie” is identified as “someone who rejects the established culture; advocates extreme liberalism in politics and lifestyle.”] This in turn captured the fancies of, and was propagated by, those who became ardent supporters of the Charismatic Movement.]

Is all about contemporary “praise” music bad? No, that’s not what I am saying. But there is a standard to follow on the basis of scriptural integrity as in “let[ting] the word of Christ dwell in you richly…” or in “speaking to yourselves … teaching and admonishing one another.” Most of the “contemporary praise” musical pieces and a number of songs in the “hymnbook” simply are void of the principle related to the “word of Christ … or teaching and admonishing.”

James, I haven’t said anything about the evils of repetitiveness. I was simply describing what characterizes many of the contemporary “praise” choruses. In “Blessed Be the Name,” that expression is [in] the “Refrain” and it blends with each verse. Many of the “hymns” that are truly scripturally well-written hymns have well-written verses [credit to great authors and writers of the past who knew God’s Word] that one wouldn’t even think of “Blessed Be the Name” as repetitive. Even in the way the “Refrain” was written—

    [v.1] All praise to Him who reigns above,
    [v.1] In majesty supreme;
    [v.1] Who gave His Son for man to die,
    [v.1] That He might man redeem.

    [v.2] His name above all names shall stand,
    [v.2] Exalted more and more,
    [v.2] At God the Father’s own right hand
    [v.2] Where angel hosts adore.

    [v.3] Redeemer, Savior, Friend of man
    [v.3] Once ruined by the fall;
    [v.3] Thou hast devised salvation’s plan,
    [v.3] For Thou hast died for all.

    Refrain (pardon the music symbols):
    ||: Blessed be the name, Blessed be the name [1] of the Lord; :|| [2] of the Lord.

In contrast, “Days of Elijah,” written by Robin Mark [arr. Keith Lancaster]—and I would like to know myself the arrangement made by Keith—there is an obvious deliberate repetition of the line “There’s no God like Jehovah”—each repeated line with a different tune. Each repeated line with a different tune is a display of MUSICAL EXERCISE in action—especially when the “Worship Leader” Keith Lancaster and his choir folks perform this concert-like music. The congregation overall doesn’t even sing it—meaning that the varying tunes for all the repeated lines are too difficult for the congregation to follow. Therefore, it becomes a performance on the part of the “Worship Leader” and his angels. For those who know music, you will notice what I am alluding to. So, here it is again:

    There’s no God like Jehovah. [d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [high d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d]
    There’s no God like Jehovah. [high e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e]
    There’s no God like Jehovah! [high d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d] [D.S.] comes.

Get the point?

I won’t bother to explain the other examples provided by James as my explanation above should suffice. Repetition of the same line 14 times [no, my mistake; it’s really 15 times] in a row, as described and actually sung as above, is a musical performance to the core—it gives the “Worship Leader” and company the greatest thrill and pleasure, especially at crescendo from the 1st to the 15th line, which in turn, at the W-L’s cue, creates excitement to some in the audience—then, a big applause ensues.

I thought that God’s followers under the old covenant had the greatest respect for Jehovah—such that calling the name “Jehovah” was difficult to do on their part because “Jehovah” was “regarded as too sacred to be uttered.” In contrast, the “sound of music” in the “praise” song above—in the way the charismatic musicians perform it—is a mockery.


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Donnie Cruz
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Re: A fulltime $$$ “Worship Leader”

July 6 2005, 4:46 AM 

”B” posted this earlier (June 28):


"God Moves in a Mysterious" Way was an "unfamiliar, complex hymn" until I learned it. I still have trouble following my part in "A Mighty Fortress" even though I've sung it at least a hundred times. I wouldn't begin to suggest that singing either of those in worship is a bad idea.

ALL of these songs were new at one time.



I must confess I sing a “tenor-y” [higher-pitched ] bass—or used to … until the emergence of a bunch of silly singy-clappy praise music. Yes, “God Moves in a Mysterious Way” was somewhat difficult for me to learn at first. I think I have finally learned the bass part of “A Mighty Fortress.” But, as you may know, singing of hymns in the contemporary assembly is a lost cause. Hymns are on their way to extinction. The “worship leader” is obsessed with contemporary Christian Rock ‘n Roll.

I am not at all opposed to singing an “unfamiliar, complex hymn.” In fact, in times past, many new hymns were learned by the congregation on the spot. Know what? Then (in not so long ago), if the elders had permitted the use of the services of the CHOIR or Praise Team of today … [I think you know the rest of the story.]

That was exactly my point. In short, Keith Lancaster’s (Madison’s musical mediator’s) motive is to take advantage of the situation—singing an “unfamiliar, complex hymn”—a SHOWCASE for the performance or musical talent of his PRAISE TEAM, the CHOIR. Do you understand what I mean? So, if hardly anyone in the congregation is capable of singing the unfamiliar, complex hymn, what would be your conclusion? Remember the CHOIR BOYS AND GIRLS have their individual microphones and sheet music!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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(no login)

Re: A fulltime $$$ “Worship Leader”

July 6 2005, 9:54 AM 


I think Keith made a mistake here (not necessarily an intentional one), but you can be the bigger man if you want. Ask him for a copy of the sheet music. (NOT FOR USE ON THIS SITE) Suggest that he make it available to members who are having trouble learning the new songs. If he truly wants people to learn the songs, it would make sense to offer the music to those who want to learn. If you think he is about performance, take the wind out of his sails by learning the songs.

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Re: A fulltime $$$ “Worship Leader”

July 7 2005, 6:15 AM 


Whether intentional or not, I agree that Keith made a mistake here, as you said. But I think it is any one or a combination of the following: (1) a BIG mistake that had greatly contributed to Madison’s internal conflicts and problems and the eventual upheaval in early 2001; (2) several mistakes when his charismatic behavior and antics on stage, performance issues, the CHOIR girls (and boys), “musical worship” taking precedence over God’s Word, etc., … are taken into consideration. But, of course, the biggest mistake was/is—based on the “majority rule” [perhaps a vote of 8 to 7]—that/when the elders allowed all this to happen.

I have no desire to be the bigger man—it is not in my blood or genetic makeup. The problem is not with not having a copy of the sheet music. In fact, prior to the completion of the new notebook of some 200+ compilation of contemporary Christian “praise” musical pieces [many of which were written by CCM/pop-rock artists], the “music department” [ ] of this congregation would ensure that sheet music for the new song was usually provided. So that is not the issue.

Perhaps, I should have mentioned examples of “complicated or unfamiliar” songs found in the hymnbook—and not in the compiled “praise” notebook. Simply, this is an opportunity for Keith to “showcase” the great performances of his CHOIR GIRLS and boys. [No offense intended … the Roman Catholic Church “owns” the “CHOIR BOYS” concept and realism.]

“Salvation Has Been Brought Down” [hymn 834] may not be that unfamiliar, but it is somewhat complicated “musically,” especially when sung at a very past tempo—poor folks with asthmatic condition. “All Creatures of Our God and King” [hymn #10] is unfamiliar to many in most congregations—again, “showcase” is the key word here. And it is evident when this is the only instance when the “leader” gives the “followers” plenty of time (3 seconds) to open their hymnbooks—and this is also a reminder that hymnbooks are used only occasionally and during these particular situations. Most of the time, one must rely on the big white screen for the lyrics without the notes, one or two lines at a time [reminds me of grade school]. Why? Because many of the 12-18 allotted “praise” musical pieces are sung one right after another in succession. There is not a second allowed to open the songbook; otherwise, by the time you find the page, the musical worship leader is in the middle of the following song … unless he leads or gives a cue for the congregation to applaud for several seconds after an emotionally-charged charismatic praise song has been sung.

Oops, it’s time to get ready for work.

Thanks for your input, B.


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Donnie Cruz
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Congregational “Praise” Singing: “Clap Your Hands”

July 16 2005, 10:33 PM 

The MUSICAL “Worship Leader” of Madison has directed this song in the “contemporary worship service” at 10:30 a.m. a number of times—but not in the 8:00 a.m. assembly [to my knowledge … thank you!]. This song, © Copyright 1998 Integrity’s Hosanna! Music, was written by Charley LeBlanc and is in Keith Lancaster’s “Songs of Worship” notebook for Madison—a “supplemental song booklet compiled by the Worship Ministry of the Madison Church of Christ.”

Note that in this compilation, Keith Clapmaster [sorry about the misspelling] has included several “praise” songs derived from Integrity’s Hosanna! Music and from other similar musical organizations. That explains why he is obsessed with displaying his charismatic experiences, mannerisms and performances on stage [the “pulpit”?]. “Praise! … Praise! … Shout! … Make a “joyful noise” to the Lord! … Clap! … Applaud! … ‘Enjoy’ worship!”

Speaking of “enjoying worship,” I have briefly read the first few lines of an article at this link:

Keep in mind that in congregations that utilize the services of the choir (the Praise Team) and “still” believe in “a cappella music,” the CHOIR is the substitute for the “forbidden” real music band and musical instrumentation. Notice, as mentioned below, that a “Christian concert” is being equated to a “church worship service.”

In “Enjoying Worship” by John J. DiModica, with a sub-title, “Putting the ‘fun factor’ back into the worship band,” the author has this to say:

    This past March I attended a concert by one of my favorite musicians on the planet, Victor Wooten. While this was not a Christian concert or church worship service, there were certain elements of this performance which translate very well into what our worship band does on Sunday mornings. Let me explain.

    Victor, accompanied by a stage full of friends and relatives, featured his new CD release Soul Circus. One thing that struck me about this concert was that everyone seemed to be having fun. It was obvious they truly enjoyed performing with one another. Joy was evident in the countenance of every person on stage. The main focus was clearly not to worship God, but rather to entertain the audience with the hope of selling CDs and other products. Yet, I was drawn into the performance because it was so inviting. The band was having a great time and I wanted to as well.

    Psalm 22:3 says, "But thou art holy, O thou that inhabits the praises of Israel." Combine that verse with Psalm 16:11-"Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fullness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."

    When we sing and play we are worshipping. God inhabits this praise with his presence that brings fullness of joy. When we worship, we should reflect the presence of God and his joy in our hearts and faces. Our playing, our music, and the expression on our faces as we play and sing, should be inviting, too. People will be drawn to worship as they see a reflection of Christ in the worship band.

There are “worship articles” out there, such as this one titled, “American Idol: Three Lessons for Worship Leaders,” by Phil Christensen. Preceding the article, here’s a statement: “One worship pastor’s astute observations on culture, character and hard work that goes into ‘keepin’ [worship] real, dawg.’” Are you interested in these lessons, Keith? Here’s the link:

Oh, I almost forgot … here’s the “congregational praise music.” Notice that “Clap Clap”—not a mistake—is part of the music as written by Charley.

    Title: “Clap Your Hands” [by Charley LeBlanc]

    Clap your hands all ye people,
    shout to God with a voice of triumph.
    Clap your hands all ye people,
    sing for joy unto the Lord.
    Singing Al-le-lu-ia, al-le-lu-ia! (Clap Clap)
    Al-le-lu-ia, al-le-lu-ia (Clap Clap)
    Al-le-lu-ia, al-le-lu-ia! (Clap Clap)
    Al-le-lu-ia, al-le-lu-ia (Clap Clap)
    Jesus Christ is the Lord of all, Lord of all the earth.
    Jesus Christ is the Lord of all, Lord of all the earth.
    Jesus Christ is the Lord of all, Lord of all the earth.
    Jesus Christ is the Lord of all, Lord of all the earth.


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john rebman
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Re: Congregational “Praise” Singing: “Clap Your Hands”

July 17 2005, 8:14 PM 

Are you sure the New Testament gives the Christian the "OK" to "imagine?" This would have to come from "silence."
Is there any where in the descriptive manual to led us?
I can't imagine being wrong salvation depends upon the text!

Can't you hear that wonderful Christian song now as family members gather around as an immersed sinner comes up out of the water after obeying the Gospel: "now I belong to Jesus, Jesus belongs to me, just don't play the instrument, or imagine Me, and you will live.... for eternity....
And the beat goes on...!

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Ken Sublett
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But they USE instruments!

July 17 2005, 10:17 PM 

They USE instruments at Donnie's new THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT. The A CAPPELLA singers were the Pope's castrated PRAISE TEAM he brought from france to PERFORM in the Sistine chapel where instruments were not allowed. The syle of singing is ORGANUM or after the PIPE ORGAN. This team Donnie has to endure even does a VOCAL BAND I grasp and the clapping and body worship IS instrumental. They don't INTEND to teach and admonish using THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN or the Biblical, inspired metrical resources. I am still working on your FALSE ACCUSATIONS against the RM, you know. Sounds like you have been reading Richard Hughes.

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Donnie Cruz
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Teaching one another to “clap your hands”

July 18 2005, 2:49 AM 


It’s good to know that you agree with the truth in Colossians and Ephesians concerning:

  • Letting “the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom” (Col. 3:16) …

  • “Teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs” (Col. 3:16) … [John, where is the teaching and admonishing one another in ‘praise songs’? ] …

  • “Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs (Eph. 5:19) … [John, where’s the speaking in ‘praise songs’? ] ….

Now that we agree on the importance of the text, it appears that you didn’t use your “imagination” to the fullest extent in your explanation. The text “Jesus is Lord of all” is not the issue here. Look at the title, John. It’s “Clap Your Hands”—but perhaps your perspective is the same as Charley’s in that you believe that a Christian cannot proclaim that “Jesus is Lord of all” without making the noise—yeah, that kind of noise!

I’ve just read Ken’s response. He’s right when he said, “But they use instruments!” They not only use instruments, but they (the “Worship Leader” and his choir girls and boys [the “Praise Team”—in case you didn’t know]) perform also.

Let me tell you briefly a true story that happened to me one Sunday recently [well, it’s happened actually a number of times before]. I was in the middle of partaking of the cup, in deep thought as many of the others were, I would think, when suddenly the lead soprano choir girl, all alone with her MICROPHONE on, began singing 3 or 4 lines of a song, and the rest of the choir girls and boys joined in afterwards. Remember, the microphone was on, and so the female soloist was loud and her LONE voice sounded “operatic” to me—do you understand? Well, John, I nearly jumped out of my seat—I guess I was nervy at the time. Fortunately, I didn’t spill the juice all over me. Also, I could not have spilled it on others because of the many empty pews in the balcony where it used to be crowded.

The point, John, is that there is no sense in “teaching and admonishing one another” or in “speaking to yourselves” with the handclapping stuff—unless one has not yet learned how to do it since childhood. Again, Ken is correct. Clapping does not emanate from the vocal cords—I think that’s what I learned in physics or biology or whatever. In essence, clapping is not singing—clapping is some form of NOISE; that’s what happens when there’s applause at a concert or cheering or cheerleading in a sport event. Rhythmic clapping in singing, just like using musical instruments, somehow stimulates the nerve endings. The “worship leader” and his choir angels, because of their awareness that musical instruments are “forbidden” [and probably wish they weren’t], use rhythmic clapping to simulate instrumentation, as well as stimulate the senses, while they perform. Why is it performance? Because the elite singers have microphones while the “regular” members do not—don’t you get it? In true and sincere congregational singing, there is no need for each one to use a microphone in order for God to hear the melody from the heart. The praise team must think that God has a hearing deficiency.

By the way, I don’t understand why you brought up immersion as being connected to the article. In fact, you brought up a fallacy by stating or implying that immersion comes AFTER obedience to the gospel. Baptism is an integral part of salvation—not an aftermath. The (1) blotting out of sins and (2) the times of refreshing coming from the presence of the Lord—which is the gift of a HOLY spirit in the just-cleansed individual … do NOT occur until after repentance and baptism. Read Acts 2:38 and 3:19—these are PARALLEL passages.


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Estill B.
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Re: Congregational “Praise” Singing: “Clap Your Hands”

July 19 2005, 6:04 AM 

Psalm 47:1-9

1 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of the sons of Korah. Oh, clap your hands, all you peoples! Shout to God with the voice of triumph! 2 For the Lord Most High is awesome; He is a great King over all the earth. 3 He will subdue the peoples under us, And the nations under our feet. 4 He will choose our inheritance for us, The excellence of Jacob whom He loves. Selah

5 God has gone up with a shout, The Lord with the sound of a trumpet. 6 Sing praises to God, sing praises! Sing praises to our King, sing praises! 7 For God is the King of all the earth; Sing praises with understanding. 8 God reigns over the nations; God sits on His holy throne. 9 The princes of the people have gathered together, The people of the God of Abraham. For the shields of the earth belong to God; He is greatly exalted.


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Ken Sublett
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Re: Congregational “Praise” Singing: “Clap Your Hands”

July 19 2005, 11:36 AM 

ALL of the "instrumental" Psalms and indeed most of them are WARRIOR'S CHANTS. Remember Gideon? If you want to PANIC the enemy and turn them into COWARDS then you project about any kind of BOASTING SONGS at them and you create doubt. This BATTLE CRY of the "Warriors" against Christ is the ONLY meaning of MUSIC when CHRISTIANS are trying to worship God in the PLACE of their human SPIRIT.

Psa 47:1 (To the chief Musician, A Psalm for the sons of Korah.)
O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.

Clapping IS an instrumental panic sound--the Startle Reflex USED by ABUSERS:
    Taqa (h8628) taw-kah'; a prim. root; to clatter, i. e. slap (the hands together), clang (an instrument); by anal. to drive (a nail or tent-pin, a dart, etc.); by impl. to become bondsman (by hand-clasping): - blow ([a trumpet]), cast, clap, fasten, pitch [tent], smite, sound, strike, * suretiship, thrust.

    And Ehud put forth his left hand, and took the dagger from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly: Jud.3:21

    And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said unto him, Turn in, my lord, turn in to me; fear not. And when he had turned in unto her into the tent, she covered him with a mantle. Jud.4:18

    And he said unto her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water to drink; for I am thirsty. And she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him. Jud 4:19

    Again he said unto her, Stand in the door of the tent, and it shall be, when any man doth come and enquire of thee, and say, Is there any man here? that thou shalt say, No. Jud 4:20

    Then Jael Hebers wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and SMOTE the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died. Jud 4:21

Shout is:
    Ruwa (h7321) roo-ah'; a prim. root; to mar (espec. by breaking); fig. to split the ears (with sound), i. e. shout (for alarm or joy): - blow an alarm, cry (alarm, aloud, out), destroy, make a joyful noise, smart, shout (for joy), sound an alarm, triumph.
This was not worship but a BATTLE CRY as are all of the "instrumental" Psalms. Psalm 41 prophesied that Judas would try to TRIUMPH over Jesus:
    By this I know that thou favourest me, because mine enemy doth not TRIUMPH over me. Ps.41:11
This is the MARK OF JUDAS who was indwelled by Satan or Lucifer (Zoe) who tried to BLEED OFF honor due only to God. This needs no proving: when you are CLAPPING and oohing and ahhing at the singy-clappy boys and listening to THEIR words then it is self-evident that you are trying to TRIUMPH OVER the words of Christ clearly commanded for the assembly. In fact, you are lusting for what has always been know as THE HAREM OF THE GODS. The WRONG spirit is infesting you guys: the same one Jesus induced in Judas when he MARKED him with the SOP which has the same base as PSALLO or MELODY.

Judas was this 'enemy' and also familiar friend. The Judas Bag was always attached to a flute case. It was for "carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments." Judas betrayed Jesus but it was the usual Levitical Warrior "musicians" who musically mocked Jesus.

The congregation is the word QAHAL which means the "synagogue." The people were never gathered together except for INSTRUCTIONS. On some first days and all seventh days this was to hold a holy convocation. This word means to READ or REHEARSE which is the meaning of Stephen's "church in the wilderness."
    But when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall NOT sound an alarm. Nu.10:7

    And the SONS of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations. Num 10:8

    And if ye go to WAR in your land against the ENEMY that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the Lord your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies. Nu.10:9

Charismatic (perverted) music always creates the impulse of FIGHT, FLIGHT or sexuality. The sexuality is a YO-YO effect: the sexual feelings MARKED by hand clapping and "body worship" creates more endorphins which creates more "sexual" PLEASURING which Paul outlawed for the synagogue in Romans 15.

The voice of TRIUMPH is:
    Rinnah (h7440) rin-naw'; from 7442; prop. a creaking (or shrill sound), i. e. shout (of joy or grief): - cry, gladness, joy, proclamation, rejoicing, shouting, sing (-ing), triumph.

    And when they began to sing and to praise, the Lord set AMBUSHMENTS against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten. 2 Chron 20: 22

    Ranah (h7439) raw-naw'; a prim. root; to whiz: - rattle.

    He mocketh at fear, and is not affrighted; neither turneth he back from the sword. Job 39:22

    The quiver rattleth against him, the glittering spear and the shield. Job 39:23

For the Lord most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth. Psa 47:2

He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet. Psa 47:3

The secular, evil DAVID wanted to shed the blood OF the Gentiles: the spiritual DAVID shed HIS blood FOR the Gentiles. You are MAKING WAR againt Christ and His People.
    And the ten HORNS out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. Dan 7:24

      Horn is Qeren (h7162) keh'-ren; corresp. to 7161; a horn (lit. or for sound): - horn, cornet.

      Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down and worshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up. Da.3:7

    And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall WEAR OUT the saints of the most High, and think to CHANGE TIMES and LAWS: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Da.7:25

Eat, Drink and Make Mary!

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Donnie Cruz
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“Brother John, I will ‘teach and admonish’ you to praise this [my] way.”

July 19 2005, 11:25 PM 

E.B., E.B., E.B.,

When did you get converted to charismatic-ism!!!

You know, if you really check out the book of Psalms, more frequently than not, the pronoun “I” is associated with the expression “sing praise”—NOT with my brother Estill and sister Estella, not with brother Robin and sister Robin, not with brother John and sister Johnna, not with sister Paula and brother Paul, not with sister Michelle and brother Michael, et al. Praising the Lord in the life of a Christian is personal. Anyway, these are only a few to represent many of the references in the book of Psalms where praising is personal—not necessarily shared or congregational. By “shared” I mean—one does not have to wait till assembly time to do the musically-driven rah-rah-rah in public … and not do it anymore … not again until the next musical-worship-led rah-rah-rah. It’s probably the reason why “praise” songs are not included in the teaching and admonishing one another in: (1) psalms and (2) hymns and (3) spiritual songs. Can you imagine saying, “Brother John, let me teach and admonish you to praise the way I praise…”?

  • Ps. 7:17—“I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.”
  • Ps. 9:2—“I will be glad and rejoice in thee: I will sing praise to thy name, O thou most High.”
  • Ps. 18:49—“Therefore will I give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen, and ing praises unto thy name.”
  • Ps. 27:6—“And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: … I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.”
  • Ps. 30:12—“To the end that my glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto …”
  • Ps. 61:8—“So will I sing praise unto thy name for ever, that I may daily perform my vows.”
  • Ps. 75:9—“But I will declare for ever; I will sing praises to the God of Jacob.”
  • Ps. 104:33—“I will sing unto the LORD as long as I live: I will sing praise to my God while I have my being.”
  • Ps. 108:3—“I will praise thee, O LORD, among the people: and I will sing praises unto thee among the nations.”
  • Ps. 138:1—“I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.”
  • Ps. 144:9—“I will sing a new song unto thee, O God: upon a psaltery and an instrument of ten strings will I sing praises unto thee.”
  • Ps. 146:2—“While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.”


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Estill B.
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Re: “Brother John, I will ‘teach and admonish’ you to praise this [my] way.”

August 6 2005, 6:31 AM 

And yet, Donnie, there are indeed references to worship/praise with others as well:

Psalms 95:1-6

Oh come, let us sing to the Lord! Let us shout joyfully to the Rock of our salvation. Let us come before His presence with thanksgiving; Let us shout joyfully to Him with psalms. For the Lord is the great God, And the great King above all gods. In His hand are the deep places of the earth; The heights of the hills are His also. The sea is His, for He made it; And His hands formed the dry land. Oh come, let us worship and bow down; Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.

Psalms 132:1-10

A Song of Ascents. Lord, remember David And all his afflictions; How he swore to the Lord, And vowed to the Mighty One of Jacob: "Surely I will not go into the chamber of my house, Or go up to the comfort of my bed; I will not give sleep to my eyes Or slumber to my eyelids, Until I find a place for the Lord, A dwelling place for the Mighty One of Jacob." Behold, we heard of it in Ephrathah; We found it in the fields of the woods. Let us go into His tabernacle; Let us worship at His footstool. Arise, O Lord, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your strength. Let Your priests be clothed with righteousness, And let Your saints shout for joy. For Your servant David's sake, Do not turn away the face of Your Anointed.

Hebrews 13:15

Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name.


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Donnie Cruz
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Great Examples of Clapping in the “WORSHIP assembly”

July 20 2005, 12:15 AM 

  • II Kings 11—[ 11] And the guard stood, every man with his weapons in his hand, round about the king, from the right corner of the temple to the left corner of the temple, along by the altar and the temple. [12] And he brought forth the king's son, and put the crown upon him, and gave him the testimony; and they made him king, and anointed him; and they clapped their hands, and said, God save the king. [13] And when Athaliah heard the noise of the guard and of the people, she came to the people into the temple of the LORD. [14] And when she looked, behold, the king stood by a pillar, as the manner was, and the princes and the trumpeters by the king, and all the people of the land rejoiced, and blew with trumpets: and Athaliah rent her clothes, and cried, Treason, Treason.

  • Job 27—[19] The rich man shall lie down, but he shall not be gathered: he openeth his eyes, and he is not. [20] Terrors take hold on him as waters, a tempest stealeth him away in the night. [21] The east wind carrieth him away, and he departeth: and as a storm hurleth him out of his place. [22] For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand. [23] Men shall clap their hands at him, and shall hiss him out of his place.

  • Job 34—[37] For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.

  • Psalms 98—[7] Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. [8] Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together….

  • Isaiah 55—[12] For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

  • Lament. 2—[15] All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth? [16] All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth: they say, We have swallowed her up: certainly this is the day that we looked for; we have found, we have seen it.

  • Ezekiel 25—[5] And I will make Rabbah a stable for camels, and the Ammonites a couchingplace for flocks: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. [6] For thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast clapped thine hands, and stamped with the feet, and rejoiced in heart with all thy despite against the land of Israel; [7] Behold, therefore I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and will deliver thee for a spoil to the heathen; and I will cut thee off from the people, and I will cause thee to perish out of the countries: I will destroy thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD.

  • Nahum 3—[18] Thy shepherds slumber, O king of Assyria: thy nobles shall dwell in the dust: thy people is scattered upon the mountains, and no man gathereth them. [19] There is no healing of thy bruise; thy wound is grievous: all that hear the bruit of thee shall clap the hands over thee: for upon whom hath not thy wickedness passed continually?

Sorry, there is not a single example of congregational worship clapping found in the New Testament. Even the word “clap” is nowhere to be found in the New Testament.


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July 20 2005, 8:57 AM 

Can you take this space and list every single congregational worship in the NT? Surely there are many if we in the Church of Christ can base an entire theology of worship on them.

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Ken Sublett
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PATTERNISM: it's God's or Ours!

July 20 2005, 10:23 AM 

Absolutely, John:
We might begin with the understanding of the MEANING of Restoration Movement. John Calvin called his goal a Restoration of the church promised and built by Jesus, approved by the apostles and which existed until the apostasy of preaching, singing, using non-inspired text, taking up collections for able-bodied men and just about everything you probably have in mind.
    I come now to ceremonies, which, while they ought to be grave attestations of divine worship, are rather a mere mockery of God. A new Judaism, as a substitute for that which God had distinctly abrogated, has again been reared up by means of numerous puerile extravagancies, collected from different quarters; and with these have been mixed up certain impious rites, partly borrowed from the heathen, and more adapted to some theatrical show than to the dignity of our religion.

    The first evil here is, that an immense number of ceremonies, which God had by his authority abrogated, once for all, have been again revived.

    The next evil is that, while ceremonies ought to be living exercises of piety, men are vainly occupied with numbers of them that are both frivolous and useless.

    But by far the most deadly evil of all is, that after men have thus mocked God with ceremonies of one kind or other, they think they have fulfillled their duty as admirably as if these ceremonies included in them the whole essence of piety and divine worship.

We link the Catholic Encyclopedia to prove that things like MUSIC was borrowed from pagans because it was the one thing COMMON to all pagan cults. We know exactly when the church added SINGING other than "speaking" the songs as Paul demands: the year 373 too late to be New Testament.

Jesus did not define worship as we define worship. He promised to build an ekklesia or synagogue or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE which must be defined as the synagogue existed with the addition of the Lord's Supper. There was NO PRAISE SERVICE IN THE SYNAGOGUE. Even common sense and common decency demands that when you assemble for instructions you don't clap in the face of the Teacher. The First at times and the Sevent day throughout the Old Covenant was NOT for what we call worship but for REST. This specificially quarantined the Jews FROM the religious rituals borrowed from Babylon and Canaan. The Holy Convocation meant to REST and READ or REHEARSE the Word of God.

Thomas Campbell defined the CHURCH as "A school of Christ" and WORSHIP as reading and musing about the Word of God. That was the meaning of SPEAKING to one another, using the INSPIRED TEXT and leaving the "singing AND melody" within the human heart. Just take a look at all of the HIGH PLACES in Nashville and new ones budding all of the time. Probably with a SPIRE longer than YOUR SPIRE:
    And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms
    thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth,
    when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood. Ezek 16:22

    And it came to pass after all thy wickedness, (woe, woe unto thee saith the Lord God;) Ezek 16:23

    That thou hast also built unto thee an eminent place,
    and hast made thee an high place in every street. Ezek 16:24

    Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way,
    and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred,
    and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by,
    and multiplied thy whoredoms. Ezek 16:25

    Thou hast also committed fornication
    with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh;
    and hast increased thy whoredoms,
    to provoke me to anger. Ezek 16:26

    Behold, therefore I have stretched out my hand over thee,
    and have diminished thine ordinary food,
    and delivered thee unto the will of them that hate thee,
    the daughters of the Philistines,
    which are ashamed of thy lewd way. Ezek 16:27

    Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians,
    because thou wast unsatiable;
    yea, thou hast played the harlot with them,
    and yet couldest not be satisfied. Ezek 16:28

    Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication
    in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea;
    and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith. Ezek 16:29

    How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord God,
    seeing thou doest all these things,
    the work of an imperious whorish woman; Ezek 16:30

    In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way,
    and makest thine high place in every street;
    and hast not been as an harlot,
    in that thou scornest hire; Ezek 16:31

    But as a wife that committeth adultery,
    which taketh strangers instead of her husband Ezek 16:32

    They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers,
    and HIREST them, that they may come unto thee
    on every side for thy whoredom. Ezek 16:33

The SINGERS and MUSICIANS in a "worship center" always SERVED as the HAREM OF THE GODS.

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Donnie Cruz
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He Had Selected Me Before I Even Knew It

August 5 2005, 3:23 AM 

Not only does the “Worship Leader” order the congregants to “Clap Your Hands” [© Copyright 1998 Integrity’s Hosanna! Music, Charley LeBlanc], but also does he frequently proclaim the message in the following musical piece. Peter says in the Bible, “Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons” (Acts 10:34). See what’s wrong with this message:

    Title: “Boundless Love” (Dennis Loewen)
    © Copyright 1980 by John T. Benson Publishing

    [v1] Boundless love, unending joy,
    this is my life, it’s what I know.
    And I can’t believe that He selected me!
    Jesus, my Lord, it’s You I owe.

    [v2] Boundless grace because of Calvary,
    His life He gave, His love outpoured.
    And I now can live with Him eternally.
    Jesus my Lord, it’s You I owe.

Sorry, Ronald, can you believe that God did not select you?


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