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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

“Songs of Calvin”: That He Selected Me (Predestination)

September 30 2005, 11:11 PM 

Here’s a post taken from “MORE CHURCHES” forum. Two links to the 2-part thread concerning the Smith Springs congregation’s connection to the Engedi Ministries are listed below. Links to the “Engedi Ministries” organization and to “Engedi Ministries Exposed” are also provided:

I was intrigued by the title of the post “Songs of Calvin.” The article is impacting. Why? We know that some congregations are having to deal NOT ONLY with many musically-entertaining, lacking-in-truth Contemporary Christian Rock Music pieces BUT ALSO with certain truth-perverted hymns of the last few centuries. Interestingly, our own church hymn writers and their hymns are fast becoming “extinct.” Please read:

    Fairview Frank
    Songs of Calvin September 30 2005, 3:05 PM

    As I compared the Engedi Ministries Homepage with the warnings at Engedi Ministries Exposed I had a real sense of deja vu. I was curious if the Exposed link was exaggerating its claims of some Smith Spring's leaders strong association with the PCA branch of the Presbyterian church. Sure enough, the Engedi classes this fall are being taught by a Presby. PCA Pastor! Engedi's homepage synopsis says that Pastor D. Filson, of the Good Shepherd Presby. church in Bellvue Tenn. will be teaching this fall's series on Christian hymns.

    The subject is to include analysis of songs by Saint Augustine, John Calvin, Martin Luther and Jonathan Edwards (ALL predestination-ists). The study, it says, is designed to 'stimulate a love for solid theology' and deals with 'music that brims with theology'. I guess they mean it overflows with Calvinism, don't you guess?

    What is noticably missing from the discussion? ANY songs written by any of our brethren in the churches of Christ, though that is where you'll find every single Engedi leader on Sunday mornings! It's interesting that men like Bro. L.O.Sanderson and Tillet S. Teddlie don't even get honorable-mention status. I guess the song BE WITH ME LORD must be too shallow, theologically, or maybe it's just too humanistic in its theme.

    Come on Engedi guys, get real and be honest with YOURSELVES for a change.

Well, Frank, there it is. Madison’s feel-good “Worship Leader” has a favorite “Song of Calvin” in the misinterpreted song “Boundless Love.”

“And I can’t believe that He selected me!”

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mike b.
(no login)


October 26 2005, 12:35 AM 


I say this with utmost respect for you all:
I didn't want to actually count up the entries in this thread, but let me estimate that over 90% is complaint and/or argument. Why are we not instead discussing the glory, honor, virtue, words and actions of the Man Himself: Jesus, our Lord and Saviour?! Why have we turned inward to bite and devour one another? Indeed it would seem we are consuming one another to our utter destruction.
I believe many of us are gospel starved. Why do I not get a confident response when I ask a room full of our brethren, "If you die now, will you go to Heaven?" Why do some seem to think I'm arrogant when I say I know I'm saved?
Could it be spiritual misfocus, and even misplaced faith? Ya, some people are under the conventional religious spell that bewitched the Galatians and do not admit their helplessness to save themselves and put their trust in Jesus to save them. Some are instead trusting in what they are doing to save them, when there is absolutely no way. It only results in the self righteousness of the Pharisee in Luke 18, or in complete dispair in those honest enough to admit they cannot keep the law.
May I re-write the formula?
Not Faith + Works = Salvation,
But Faith = Salvation + Works
I know someone, if not many are going to pounce on me with James 2. The thing is, the kind of faith whereby we simply mentally acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God and died for our sins is one definition of faith. The devils also believe, confess and make requests. Did you know it's possible to OBEY someone you fear and hate? But there is no fear in LOVE (1 John 4:18). And the preceding verse conclusively shows that it means fear of judgment. Putting our TRUST in Jesus to save us is quite another definition of faith. Do we trust Him? It's this kind of trust that bears fruit. If we abide in Jesus, we will bear fruit, with a light and easy yoke. It's this kind of trust that allows us to recognize God's love in Jesus (the GOSPEL) for us all and motivates us to reciprocate it. 'Cause none of us is good enough to be saved. None of us deserves to go to Heaven. Realizing this, also humbles us and reduces our judgmental tendencies. It inspires us to edify, rather than attack, bite and devour.
Let me again allow you to pounce on me by asserting that I will not disfellowship myself with a fellow believer who does not reject Jesus':
1. Deity
2. Humanity
3. Necessity
4. Sufficiency
These are the heresies that were being dealt with in the Bible. Not the trivial stuff we separate ourselves over. No one is going to fully agree on every issue. I don't believe it's necessary, nor do I believe that is what Paul meant by "speak the same thing" and "be of the same mind". Romans 14 has to be put into practice.
Some apparently think that preaching of grace will promote spiritual laziness or worse, a feeling of license to "sin that grace may abound." On the contrary, I fully disagree. Some will abuse grace in such a way, but most when Jesus is lifted up will be drawn powerfully unto Him. But we have to preach CHRISTianity, not CHURCHianity. The church does not save us; Jesus does.
Last year, I heard a preacher make a profound observation. Let me paraphrase: [We have bigger things to concern ourselves with. We have a generation growing up that is asking not if they should use instruments in worship, but whether to worship Jesus or Buddah.]
Gents, I know no one did it intentionally, but in our efforts to be the original, 1st-century church of our Lord, we started dotting i's and crossing t's and came up with a checklist in order to be "right". We started searching the scriptures, because in them we thought we have eternal life, and somehow Jesus, of Whom they testify, we lost sight of. We marginalized Him and put the church and doctrine at the center. The whole Bible is about Jesus! Either God's preparations for Him to come or the glorious announcement that He has done so, destroying the power of death. Praise God!
I'm not suggesting we abandon the effort to follow God's pattern. But let's get our eyes and our FOCUS back on Him and His one over-riding command: "Love one another as I have loved you."

May the Lord richly bless you all,

mike b.

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Doug B
(no login)


October 26 2005, 10:41 AM 

Mike B,

That was a very appropriate post. I appreciate your humility and desire to seek the ideals of the Kingdom above all else.

I can imagine, though, that a scathing rebuke will soon be coming your way. I have not seen any post that challenges what the "moderator" has to say that has not been torn apart.

Thank you again for your wisdom.

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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

The “Musical” Worship Leader’s Spiritual Focus

October 27 2005, 5:41 AM 


I have made a note to myself to respond more fully to Mike’s article on “spiritual focus.” At the outset, this thread is about “church music” and he strayed from dealing with this specific topic—a typical deviation technique used in discussion for the purpose of reinforcing an agendum. [I will be responding to the salvation issue brought up in his article—with my explanation of how grace (God’s part) is often misused and abused and why meritorious works (or works of righteousness—certainly the saved individual’s part) are necessary in Christian living, meaning that they’re NOT the end result or effect of faith but are rather expected of the Christian to do as COMMANDED.]

Since he’s mentioned “spiritual focus”—an important subject, no doubt, I’d like to bring our attention back to the topic—music. In an article in The Christian Chronicle, “A conversation with Keith Lancaster” (Oct. 16, 2003), the beginning paragraph says, “Credit Keith Lancaster with confusing the English language.” I realize there’s an explanation for that remark in the rest of the conversation. But I can’t help it by saying that that remark reminds me of some of his interjections he utters [somewhat like “speaking in tongues” but in English ] while wagging his arms in “musical worship” leading. He also at times utters a little prayer [in English also] after a well-performed rendering of some music that is “Praise Team” dominated [again, let me remind you of those 6 to 8 individual microphones that they use]. This scenario (including the applause after singing)—could be a “charismatic” experience to some ... who knows?

For next time, it will be Keith’s answer to the question—“What was the founding philosophy of Acappella?”



The above post was meant to address Doug. Sorry!

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Oct 29, 2005 3:42 PM

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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

The “Musical” Worship Leader’s Spiritual Focus--Continued

October 30 2005, 1:18 AM 

What was the founding philosophy of Acappella?

While other people realized great potential in Christian music in general, I specifically wanted to use voices only. After all, the human voice is the greatest instrument of music ever created. I felt called to take my love of music and offer it to God through this ministry.

Throughout Acappella’s history, there have been four primary goals: glorify God, encourage Christians, reach the lost and provide a godly alternative to worldly music. One of the ways we love to carry this out is giving away our music to missionaries for evangelistic purposes.
[Quoted from The Christian Chronicle.]


Comments: If Mr. Lancaster “specifically wanted to use voices only,” why does he take the lead and prompt and encourage those in the assembly at Madison and other congregations elsewhere to participate in rhythmic handclapping during singing? Why the applause after the singing of a song? He certainly has learned a lot from Charismatic gatherings and TBN.

In addition, I haven’t been able to understand any of the unintelligible sounds that simulate or are substituted for musical instruments that his Praise Team performs. Why the humming and the o-o-o-o-o-i-n-g or the female vocalist doing a solo especially DURING the partaking of the Lord’s Supper—plus, of course, a clip shown on the big screen of the disciples with Christ depicting a MEAL [of pancakes] being served?

The article continues—“Lancaster is Minister of Worship and Music for the Madison church, coordinating three Sunday services and a Prayer and Praise class on Wednesday nights. At Lipscomb, he directs the school’s 11-member music group, X-Changed.”

Now, based on the above schedule of his activities at Madison, would you consider his “willingness of service for the Lord” worthy of a huge and full compensation as though he were an executive of some business corporation? Not only that, but with the elders’ approval, a HUGE worldly amount of money was spent on the sound system to promote the “concert-like ‘worship services’” performed by Keith and his musicians! (And that explains why each PT member—and there’s no telling how many Praise Team groups there are—has a handheld microphone.) When they could have used the money instead for the remaining debt from the Vision 2000 project of massive re-construction and improvements of the Madison campus … a project that the deceived alienated and faithful brethren who have left since helped pay the major portion of expenses? [Oops, pardon me; I forgot that it is officially the “Madison Church of Christ, Inc.”]

Furthermore, the article states, “More than 16 albums and thousands of concerts later, Acappella (in its many lineups) has toured the world, including communist China in 1999 as a representative of American Gospel music at the International Festival of the Arts. While he no longer sings as a member of Acappella, Lancaster’s Acappella Company produces and manages the latest incarnation of the group, plus other a cappella groups — Vocal Union, AVB, Voces.”

Sounds like one of those Contemporary Christian Music artists and business ventures in the name of religion. It’s all about money, Twila Paris and her “Ministry and Music” and others, isn’t it?


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(no login)


October 30 2005, 11:54 PM 

Mike B.

Thanks for you thoughtful insight. However, I must admit that some of it concerns me strongly. No one on this site has EVER disagreed with the command to Love one another. No one ever has failed to discuss the glory of God.

There are many sites available to spread the Word of God. This site has another purpose - a Christ Commanded one also. This site is for c of C members to discuss and be on the look out for the changes that are occurring in the church. It is about those that have twisted the Bible into something less than it really is. It is to warn members of the wolf in sheep's clothing that is causing division in the Church. You are correct that we are gospel starved. We are also knowledge starved. Our members are turning to false teachings because they are unable to determine what their true beliefs are, and instead follow whomever sounds good or fits their needs. They are unable to read the scriptures for themself and are relying on others to decipher for them. This is what started the Catholic Church - the belief that common man could not understand the Bible. Christ warned us of these days. He warned us to stand against them.

What scares me is this new belief racing through the Church that being a Christian is about love and evangalism, only. We are completely rewriting the scriptures to exclude many of God's commands. Progressive's try to turn the stand for Truth into "legalism" but that is inaccurate. Obeying God's commandments is not legalistic, it is being a Christian. This site is not arguing over issues that are outside His Word. You may try to twist it into such, but you would be incorrect. In fact, progressive's use of "legalism" is inherently in error and questionable. It shows a complete lack of biblical understanding into what was meant by legalism in the NT. Reminding people of God's EVERY WORD and his commandments is not legalism - far from it. It is what we are charged to do. Those who are not doing it are failing God.

I must completely disagree with your comment that you do not need to disfellowship yourself from believers that do not follow God's commandments since they believe in Jesus. This is an important issue on which some of the Churches have taken a turn away from God. This is where we are completely erasing entire chapters.

Let's examine the following verses....
1 Tim 5: 20 "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear."
1 Cor 5:3-13 "[3] For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. [4] In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, [5] deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [6] Your glorying [is] not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? [7] Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed *for us. [8] Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth. [9] I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. [10] Yet [I] certainly [did] not [mean] with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. [11] But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person. [12] For what [have] I [to do] with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? [13] But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

So, what is meant by the verses above? If one is sinning (in this instance it was sexual), their sin can cause damage to the whole Church. In 1 Cor 5: 6-7, Paul uses the example of leaven. When unleavened bread is required, it cannot have even a little leaven in it or it is ALL ruined. So, you are to remove the leaven because it can ruin the whole. There are other scriptures that use the example of salt in water. Even a little salt ruins the water and makes it undrinkable. Simple examples with a HUGE impact on how we are to view each other as Christians. God never told us not to judge each other's outward behavior to determine if we are following his commands. He was only against judging those for inward issues we cannot know for certain - assumptions. The scripture above clearly and simply states that we cannot allow ANY type of unChristian teachings/behavior to enter our Church or it can ruin the whole congregation.

The preacher you heard last year is one of those that I would be concerned with. It seems he is opting to go the easy road and not ruffle anyone's feathers. Is that a true preacher? We know from early writtings that the first Christians refused to have instruments in worship as they were leftovers from the pagan and jewish religions and were considered SINFUL. As the church elders' that were discoursing on this issue had learned this directly from the Apostles, why would it not be pertinent to us today? Do the Apostle's teachings not apply to us today?

You dismiss the importance of scriptures. God commands us to study and keep his Word. Christ tells us that all he teaches and all his Apostles teach is part of God's Word. We are told that if we do not follow his commandments, we will not enter Heaven.

Christ is the Word of God
Christ teachings + Apostles teachings = teaching of God's Word/Commandments
Study + knowledge = God's approval
Follow God's Word + Follow God's Commadments = Entry into Heaven
Don't follow God's Word + disobey his Commandments = Hell

If you believe in Him, then you should be willing to accept all of His Word, not just part of it. Most importantly, if you TRULY LOVE HIM, then you will want to study the Bible and make sure that you are doing ALL He commanded - in both thought and deed.

It does come down to love in the end. Love for Him vs. love for your own needs. It's also about loving your brethren enough to worry about their souls. It's the crux of the problem between mainstream c of C's and the progressive ones. "Legalists" believe in giving up our needs for His. The progressive's teach that you can have both. God tells us we can't. I choose to believe God.

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(no login)


October 31 2005, 10:53 PM 


I agree with a lot of what you say. You said "this is where chapters are erased" Then you quoted 1 Tim 5:20 to use as a proof text to disfellowship a sinner. Let's back up a couple of verses:

Sorry about using the NIV. It's the only thing I can copy and paste from. I am reading the KJV before I hit the send button.

1TI 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages." 19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

Am I wrong, or does verse 20 not deal with an elder that sins?? Also does this text justify the payment of an elder for his work?? I have a long way to carry this if you care to listen. It sorta blows away paying a preacher to "do our religion".

I went to the KJV and chapter 5 deals with how the younger people should treat the elder people, widows, etc. Then comes verse 23: "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities". Does this authorize a nip or two to offset the bad water here in Nashville.


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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

“Have your hymn books been replaced?” (by Jeff Apthorp)

January 9 2006, 4:42 AM 

One day I was listening to BBN (Bible Broadcasting Network), and I heard Dr. Davey say something to the effect:

    “… But the song, “O Worship the King” or “O Watch It on the Screen,” whichever it is. But they put some new words to it and I think it’s going to be pretty relevant to where you may find yourself to be or where the church is basically headed today. But just remember the rhythm of the song, “O Worship the King.” And here’s some new words to go with it. . . .”

Now, let’s see how the “new and improved song” was written. Enjoy!!!



Author: Jeff Apthorp
Date: 9/7/2004 4:33:09 PM, Read:1301

Have your hymn books been replaced?

Recently Dr. Lowell Davey shared the following thought provoking words on the Perspective program. They read best set to the tune of the Hymn "O Worship The King".

    O worship the slides, projected above.
    They’re taking the place, of hymnbooks we love.
    We can’t read ahead, and we can’t read the score,
    We can’t harmonize and sing parts anymore.

    O tell of His love, but don’t mention sin.
    We cannot offend, or crowds won’t come in.
    Forgetting His wrath, and His anger don’t sing.
    We’re gracious and kind, and non-threatening.

    Our bountiful hymns, in which we delight,
    Are stogey and old, the words they aren’t right.
    We can’t memorize them, don’t know what they mean.
    Their authors are dead, and their length is obscene.

    Frail children of “NOW”, we sing what we can,
    Our culture has giv’n, a short attention span,
    We’ll sing and repeat the Ad infinitum,
    While making their writers a neat tidy sum.


Wow! That explains why “Contemporary Christian [Rock] Music” is big business. Notice the last line of the last verse, “We’ll sing and repeat … while making their writers a neat tidy sum”? BIG BUSINESS, OK!

Now churches have employed “full-time” … um … “Musical Worship Leaders” (for a “neat tidy sum” of $$$$$$$$$$$$) and have their “Praise Teams” REHEARSE and PERFORM the “MUSICAL worship” for and to the attentive [“listening,” i.e.] congregation.


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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

“A Star Is Born”

January 11 2006, 8:35 AM 

Contemporary Christian [Rock] Music!

Contemporary Christian Music Movement!

From CCMM … the “Worship Leader” is born. “MUSICAL Worship Leader” … please, Lord, “give us a worship leader!” [There is a link to access this topic.]

Then, the “WORSHIP MINISTRY” … what? It’s big BU$INE$$$$$$$$ in the contemporary religious world.

Yes, PAID WOR$HIP LEADER$ everywhere!

Shame! Shame! Shame! … To God and to the lost world! What’s happened to “services” for the Master … done willingly and free-of-charge? Think! A “worship leader’s” yearly income can support hundreds of native evangelists in third world countries. I believe that TEACHING God’s message here and abroad is THE MINISTRY—not “worship ministry.” Worship is from the heart—and it shouldn’t be compensated. The reward for Christian service is eternal life in heaven as promised.


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(no login)

Re: "I am Music and I write the songs."

March 16 2006, 7:53 PM 

Wow. You know, Kenneth, I am appalled. Honestly, do you not realize that using CAPS to emphasize is a bad thing, and that it denotes YELLING or SHOUTING?
Your attitude and approach really takes away from "preach the truth in love".
I thought this would be a good place to learn more and to grow, but this whole approach, shouting and name calling, as well as anything but loving attitude has turned me to look elsewhere.

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(no login)

Sorry, Lady!

March 17 2006, 12:43 PM 

Sorry about that, Lady: but "we" old timers used UC long before the childish invented internet "manners." Did you know that the autographs were probably mostly written BOLD UPPERCASE.

If you are going to define how I write it is best that you move on. I spout a lot of BIBLE and HISTORY to refute the SHOUTING PREACHERS who CHARGE you money, and most "ladies" as Karen Armstrong writes, are into MUSIC AND SENTIMENT and males are into DIALOG (the word the preachers translate PREACH).

I think that what you REALLY mean to say is: "I disagree with you." Go ahead.

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(no login)


September 14 2010, 10:53 PM 

It's funny you make a claim about the Autographs. Who is going to argue? No one has seen them, or could possibly know.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Some Isaiah about 150B.C.

September 15 2010, 12:05 AM 

You remember Isaiah? You know: that prophet inspired by the Spirit OF Christ. He is the one Who defined the future ekklesia/synagogue patternism in great detail.

The prophecies by Christ and made more perfect by Jesus of Nazareth whom the Father made to be both Lord and Christ are defined as the teaching resource by Peter and MARKED as a false teacher anyone who did not teach that supplied "memory."

[linked image]

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Turn Off by a Little YELLING or SHOUTING?

March 17 2006, 12:53 PM 

Funny, whenever I see words placed in ALL CAPS, I infer that it's for the sake of EMPHASIS, not to YELL or SHOUT. But no matter. If "Lady" is so turned off by what she perceives to be one man's SHOUTING, if she cannot overlook that and learn from the multitude of other educational materials available on this site, then I gather that she was not really desirous of learning anything here in the first place.

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Donnie Cruz
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“Praise Team” Rules

May 10 2006, 7:00 AM 

I have copied the following (by the same title) from the “Elders at Madison write a letter???” thread:

    Not only does the elite Praise Team (both women and men) co-lead, it also dominates with the “sound effects” from the microphones. One moment the PT members would sing the “Holy Ground Medley” seemingly reverently. Then, there’s “Holy Laughter” [clap-clap, clap-clap-clap] as it performs: “Every knee shall bow at Your throne in worship.” Maybe, it’s the kneecaps clapping while they kneel in “reverent” prayer.

    It’s all about the beat of the music, isn’t it? Whatever arouses the nerve endings, “Hallowed Be Thy Name” is insignificant—just emulate the “Worship Leader’s” mockery, right?

In case the reader is not familiar with the songs and how they are sung, here’s some explanation that might help:

“Holy Ground Medley”—the first part of the medley says, “This is holy ground, we’re standing on holy ground, for the Lord is present and where He is is holy…”; the second part, “We are standing on holy ground. And I know that there are angels all around. Let us praise Jesus now; we are standing in His presence on holy ground….” Whatever truth the medley is trying to convey, the “Worship Leader” sets the mood for the singing to “sound reverent” (although his “Praise Team” sounds quite loud for the “holy” mood). Do you see how the “Worship Leader” can lead … or MIS-lead the congregants into God’s HOLY presence [as you will see below]?

“Every knee shall bow”—this comes from “Ancient of Days.” You would think that this song should be sung reverently, right? “… Every tongue in heaven and earth shall declare Your glory[;] every knee shall bow at Your throne in worship[;] You will be exalted O God and Your kingdom shall not pass away O Ancient of Days….” Well, I did check the music sheet and, sure ‘nough, there is a directive to “clap-clap-clap” and the “Worship Leader” and his minstrels never fail to follow that directive. Shouldn’t you wonder why the elite songsters literally rhythmically CLAP their hands, but not literally follow that “every knee shall bow”? Now, that’s what goes on at the worship theatre.

“Hallowed Be Thy Name”—should be another song that connotes reverence and awe, right? The unintelligible o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o throughout the chorus does not help. Again, the musical beat that tickles the nerve endings and induces the body to gyrate does not help, either. I think you get the picture of what goes on at the “worship center.”

This is now “official.” It’s been declared by BBN (Bible Broadcasting Network) which is, I think, conservative Baptist-affiliated, that the reference to “Contemporary Christian Music” is now “Contemporary Christian Rock” (CCR)—something I’ve been stating all along in regard to these money-making music pieces authored/sung by “Christian Rock” artists.


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Donnie Cruz
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Man-Ordained “Worship Leader” Rules

May 11 2006, 8:30 AM 

If a divided congregation has diversified “worship services,” please observe that the “Worship Leader” is likely to have a split personality—the two faces of musical conductor Jekyll-Hyde.

In the “traditional” group, s/he will avoid “Contemporary Christian Rock” altogether because the supporting cast (Praise Team) members do not occupy the two front rows and do not have microphones [out of respect for the senior citizens of the kingdom] … or suffer the consequence of being “ousted.” In this gathering, the W.L. behaves “meekly” as he sings certain “Contemporary Christian Music.” One face—that of Dr. Jekyll.

In the “contemporary” division, the W.L. has all the freedom and the freedom of expression. The supporting 16-member cast is present—“hyde-ing” from the congregation by occupying the two front rows doing their thingies. Can you imagine the P.T. members being on stage performing? The W.L. displays the “charismatic” behavior—you know what I mean. This is the other face—that of Mr. Hyde. [Must run….]


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Ken Sublett
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Music = Discord Always

May 13 2006, 3:28 PM 

Donnie has made it clear--and no one will find any exception--division or sowing of discord ALWAYS happens when people lust for charismatic music:

"From the very beginning, even during its Jewish phase, monasticism cultivated choral singing as an integral part of its observance. A later historographer of the church,

Eusebius, was aware of the musical predilections of the old ascetic sects in Judaism. In fact, he excerpted Philo's description of the ritual of the Alexandrian Therapeutes, which he likened to the Christian practices of his own time (4 centuries later):

The men and women rise, each group forming a choir, and sing thanksgiving hymns to God the Redeemer' (Hist. II.17). (Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, p. 460, Abingdon).

"The majority of Christian monks in Egypt and Palestine championed organized choral chant, often in the face of a sternly opposed authority. When all historical circumstances are taken into account, there can be no doubt that the tremendious expansion and refinement of Christian chant before Pope Gregory

was due to the intensive and continuous musical activities of the monks...

Soon after his (Augustine's) death, the regional- ethnic forces of Gentile Christianity caused the split in the liturgico-musical development of the Eastern and Western churches." (Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, p. 460, Abingdon).

"Now the name of Linus or Osiris, as the 'husband of his mother,' in Egypt, was Kamut. "When Gregory the great introduced into the church of Rome what are not called the Gregorian Chants, he got them from the Chaldean mysteries, which had long been established in Rome; for the Roman Catholic priest, Eustace, admits that these chants were largely composed of 'Lydian and Phrygian tunes.' Lydia and Phrygia being among the chief seats in later times of those mysteries of which the Egyptian mysteries were only a branch. Thes tunes were sacred--the music of the great god,

and in introducing them Gregory introduced the music of Kamut. And thus, to all appearance, has it come to pass, that the name of Osiris or Kamut, 'the husband of the mother,' is in every day use among ourselves as the name of the musical scale; for

what is the melody of Osiris, consisting of the 'seven vowels' formed into a hymn, but--the Gamut?" (Hislop, Alexander, The Two Babylons, p. 22, Loizeaux Brothers.)

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Donnie Cruz
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Charismatic Music = Rowdy

October 7 2006, 3:09 AM 

Hymns are near extinction and REAL congregational singing has been severely downgraded. Why? It’s all due to the rise of “MUSICAL WORSHIP” which now comprises 75% of the assembly period. Not only that “contemporary worship” at 10:15 – 11:45 a.m. [ninety minutes] has been a marked distinction from the 8 o’clock assembly, but also that, lately at the Madison congregation, the trend has been to include the supposedly solemn observance of the Lord’s Supper as part of the charismatic “musical worship” and to isolate the teaching from God’s truth [the “sermon” ] from the musical idolatry.

This may not be a bad idea altogether—to separate the teaching and learning in the school of the Bible from the made-for-TV and entertaining “musical worship” program. I think that the “Worship Leader” and his “Praise Team” should do their own musical hour. I would go so far as to suggest that the musical concert should exclude the observance of the Lord’s Supper from its program—it does not belong there.

Apart from the “holy entertainment,” the proper thing to do, therefore, is to break bread to commemorate the Lord’s shedding of blood [NO MORE … NO LESS; not even the Lord’s resurrection and ascension on this occasion; NO, certainly NOT the change agents’ concept of a fellowship FEAST or MEAL], as well as to teach and learn from God’s truth. Acts 20:7 clearly explains this.

You know, I’ll never forget what Phil Barnes said after the “musical worship” at the beginning of his sermon delivery—“I know that when we get to heaven, it will be just as rowdy!” [I think that he was referring to the raucous Charismatic singing—what we now know as “musical worship.”]


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Re: Charismatic Music = Rowdy

October 7 2006, 1:51 PM 

"Hymns are near extinction..."

Good. You don't sing the same songs they did in the first century, do you? Times change. If you care a bit about the younger generations, you will stop trying to shove outdated, Old English hymns that use language that they don't even understand, down their throats. But they key concept here is you caring about someone besides yourself. Don't see that happening.

"You know, I’ll never forget what Phil Barnes said after the “musical worship” at the beginning of his sermon delivery—“I know that when we get to heaven, it will be just as rowdy!”

Good. I hope you don't forget it. He's right, you know.

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Re: Charismatic Music = Rowdy

October 9 2006, 10:20 PM 


Of course, I care very much about the younger generations. But that doesn’t mean that you keep trying to shove contemporary “Christian Hot Rock” [and Rap] erotic, sensual, ATTA-Boy!-to-me musical pieces down the senior saints’ throats.

Also, realize that rowdy! negates awe and reverence for God. Aren’t you rowdy when you’re in a sports event or in a “Rock” concert? “Rap” concert? Please tell me that you don’t think that a “Rock and Rap” concert is the same as the assembly of the saints, do you?


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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
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120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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