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Re: David’s Music, Dancing and Celebration

April 30 2008, 11:36 AM 

This message is being copied over to the thread “WHENCE CAME THE WORSHIP TEAM?”—as it answers the issue concerning the “BIG ME”—characteristic of numerous contemporary “praise” pieces authored and popularized by “Christian Hot Rock” artists.

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Ken Sublett
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HYMNS are the Biblical Text.

November 26 2006, 11:02 AM 

Someone said that the English language changes 14% each century: that means that you cannot understand the first century meaning of HYMN or SONG by trusting evolution. The fact is that all of the Biblical and early historical evidence proves that the ekklesia, like the synagogue, "had no praise service." If you look for a LEGALISTIC LOOPHOLE you still have to justify "arousing spiritual anxiety" when Jesus died to stop it and justify "creating mental excitment" when Paul outlawed it for what he usually calls the "synagogue" devoted to READING and reciting the Word. All history recognized the value of READING the text without umms and aahss. That is why credible leaders OUTLAWED using a "rhetorician, philosopher or poetes" as a kerusso (herald, preacher) or presbyter who must transmit the message without modifying it.

We know certain number of the Psalms which are called hymns: 6, 54-55, 61, 67, 76 in the titles. The word neginoth speaks of a string instrument or "by extension a poem set to music: specificially an epigram. When used by the CHIEF MUSICIAN it was only a Levite assigned the task, please, and then NEVER in the holy places. If you are CLAPPING then you are NOT hymning anyone but the leaders.

The law was that only the HALLEL psalms were sung or chanted at Passover: "to sing hallel daily is considered idolatry." And it is recorded that "the Psalms are sung as the school boy reads the hallel."

That is, Psalms were written for specific functions most as warrior boast songs. To sing these "dedicated" songs as just a "ritual" would indeed be idolatrous. That is why hymns were called IDOLS when the Scripture was silenced and mostly-female or effeminate songs replaced it. As far as we know Jesus HYMNED one HYMN and then went out: no dismissal prayer and NO PRAISE SERVICE.

Self-"inspired" hymns are always DENOMINATION SPECIFIC and therefore make UNITY impossible whereas Paul said that using "that which is written" KEEPS THE UNITY. Those who write their own "go beyond the sacred page" and therefore demean it.

Paul directly commanded "that which is written" or "Scripture" and history agrees that originally "Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" were just names of different songs of the BOOK OF PSALMS or rather "praises."

About are called PSALMS (g5568), 13 are called Maschil or understanding or contemplation (h4905 instructive, didactic poem, make intelligent)
36 are called ODES or songs and no instruments are used when you SING SONGS.

Paul commanded "that which is written" in Romans 15 and no one misunderstood that for hundreds of years. In that chapter Paul speaks of "sinnging to the gentiles" and repeats it in Hebrews:

Saying, I will DECLARE thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise (hymn) unto thee. Heb 2:12

DECLARE in Greek is teaching or evangelizing:

Apagello (g518) ap-ang-el'-lo; from 575 and the base of 32; to announce: - bring word (again), declare, report, shew (again), tell.

Aggelos (g32) ang'-el-os; from aggello, <prob. der. from 71; comp. 34] (to bring tidings); a messenger; esp. an "angel"; by impl. a pastor: - angel, messenger

This does not mean to entertain but to do the work of an EVANGELIST: Speak or Preach to one another:

Euaggelizo (g2097) yoo-ang-ghel-id'-zo; from 2095 and 32; to announce good news ("evangelize") espec. the gospel: - declare, bring (declare, show) glad (good) tidings, PREACH (the gospel).

An angel is a messenger. The GOOD news when WROUGHT became the ev-angel. A messenger who rushed across rivers and mountains to bring news of victory was an evangelist. Jesus Christ, the Angel of the Old Testament endured great agony in order to "sing to the Gentiles."

Sing is not MUSIC.

Apalgeo (g524) ap-alg-eh'-o; from 575 and algeo (to SMART); to GRIEVE out, i.e. become APATHETIC: - be past feeling

No! God does not attend when the singy-clappy human self-worship ditties are drummed out. Paul said that we must approach God with reverence and Godly fear For God is a consuming fire.

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"seeking and saving the near extinct"

December 14 2006, 11:42 AM 


I apologize for not responding sooner to your recent post... I haven't been online for a couple of weeks due to a very hectic schedule... I hope the following will both supply you with the answers you seek and challenge our thinking...

First, let me answer the questions that you have asked...

[1] No, I have not been in a contemporary assembly that has failed to include "traditional hymns" in the worship of the saints... Where I worship the song leader blends the use of contemporary and traditional songs very well, often utilizing a traditional one within the singing of a newer one...

[2] As for my definition of a "hymn", I would agree with the definition previously given that it is a "song of praise or thanksgiving to God." With that understanding, it is difficult, if not impossible, for those type of songs to become extinct unless worship ceases to be offered... A song of praise or thanksgiving isn't bound by certain terminology, language or by being written centuries or decades earlier...

Second, let me address some of the comments made by you that I struggle with and would like clarification...

[1] You make the statement: "If you can provide a list of hymns that we have sung for decades and centuries, and convince me and others that you would want this and future generations to continue singing them, then, you will have proven to me that you, too, love hymns that speak the truth or the words of Christ or that serve the purpose of teaching and admonishing each other."

Donnie, Donnie, Donnie... Are you serious??? Please reread that again... Now, notice exactly what you are implying: [a] that if I can't provide a list of hymns that have been sung for decades, then I have proven that I don't love the truth or Christ, AND [2] that if I can't convince you that I want people of this generation and future generations to sing those same songs that have been sung for decades, then I have proven that I don't love the truth or Christ.

You are TOTALLY wacked... Even if I provided a list of 20 traditional songs that have been sung by Christians for decades and centuries it would prove nothing other than my ability to use a songbook index and type... Even if I could recall 20 songs off the top of my head (which I can) and presented them for your viewing pleasure, it would not prove anything to you, unless you are so gullible to believe that my merely typing them means that I think it important that future generations sing that same song... And, to think that you feel that my doing such would prove that I love truth and Christ is absolutely unbelievable... When did simply saying something become equated with loving the truth and Christ??? How can merely providing a list prove anything to you???

[2] You make the statement: "Not that I’m questioning your integrity, I really would like to be convinced that with all sincerity you are truly “interested in saving ‘hymns’ from extinction.”

Donnie, I assure you that I am not worried about your questioning my integrity... You can question me on anything I believe and teach and I will gladly give you the reason of the hope that is within me... But, please understand this, I am bound to one master, it is his will that I seek, and it is his laws that will be written on my heart...

Jesus said "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free..." He also revealed, "...that the Son of Man is come to seek and save that which is lost."

I would suggest you spend more of your time learing to become consumed with Jesus' mission of seeking and saving the lost rather than spending it seeking and saving hymns you feel are becoming extinct... or by being worried about whether or not future generations will sing traditional songs... I certainly don't want to call your integrity into question, but, your focus seems to be somewhat distorted...

By the way, if it will make you feel better, below is your list of traditional hymns that are my favorites, but understand, my life won't lose meaning and my relationship with God won't suffer if these become extinct... These are in no particular order:

Nothing but the blood of Jesus
How great Thou Art
Just as I am
Holy, Holy, Holy
The old rugged cross
Amazing grace
I'll fly away
and others...

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Re: "seeking and saving the near extinct"

December 3 2008, 12:39 AM 

Be careful here. Trying to reason with Donnie and company is just like wrestling with a pig. All you do is get dirty, and the pig likes it.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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