Place your banner ad here.          See all banner ads

|| ConcernedMembers.com || About || Links Library || Help Warn Others ||
|| Madison Church of Christ || Richland Hills Church of Christ || Hillcrest Church of Christ || More Churches || Sunday School in Exile ||

Where is my NewThisWeek Email subscription?Click Here

Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

Combined forums of churches of Christ

August 17 2005 at 4:58 PM
meforevidence  (Login meforevidence)
from IP address 63.96.9.97

I enjoy this forum. I am a member of the coC in the DFW area. Here is the my website. I would love to share your thoughts on many subjects along with others who are already members. I will also try to participate in this one.

http://members.createforum.net/index.php?mforum=bkitc>



    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 70.149.128.61 on Aug 20, 2005 4:48 PM


 
 Respond to this message   
AuthorReply
Donnie Cruz
(no login)
68.19.238.46

“I enjoy this forum.”

August 18 2005, 11:21 PM 

To Evidence:

I have checked out your site which I assume is fairly new. I notice a number of posts you have initiated in the form of questions. There are several topics, with or without replies as yet, that are relevant to why the ConcernedMembers site exists. I’ll explain later on.

The Change/Church Growth Movement has infected (yes, it is a spiritual disease) a number of churches of Christ, including the Madison congregation. Many folks are quick to lead anyone to believe that it’s only about a change or changes in worship STYLE. That excuse is very deceptive. The truth of the matter is that it’s more about change in “worship” CONTENT from being truth-centered to being entertainment-oriented.

Behind the scenes is actually the goal of prominent change agents operating in the brotherhood by targeting first those fairly large congregations and attempting to “TRANSFORM” them into mega Community Churches that would openly fellowship with anyone from any religious faith. The reality behind the scenes is the introduction or acceptance of sorts of DOCTRINES that do not conform to the Holy Scripture.

Having said all that about doctrinal errors that churches in our generation have to constantly deal with, I have noted the following topics which, I believe, are relevant to problems and issues that the Change Movement has inflicted upon a number of congregations. Most of these topics have been discussed here either briefly or extensively:

  • “Elder Qualifications”—Is it scriptural for current elders to appoint others of their choice to become fellow elders? What are the scriptural qualifications for elders-to-be? How important is their knowledge of the truth and their being able to teach? What of elders who are ignorant of what God expects or requires them to do?

  • “Is the Use of Instruments in Worship a Sin”—Whether it is right or wrong, is it really any worse than a concert-like or entertainment-oriented “musical worship” in the assembly? Should rhythmic clapping or applause after singing a silly, singy-clappy “praise” music be considered an expression of reverence and awe in God’s presence? Should such be encouraged by the singy-clappy “worship leader” even if it is very offensive to others in the assembly?

  • “The Trinity”
  • “What about Christmas? … Halloween”
  • “Predestination”
  • “Indwelling of the Holy Spirit”
  • “The Kingdom of God”
  • “Women in Classes”
  • “The Holy Spirit”
  • “I Corinthians 13”

No, I’m not going to give a brief description of each of the other topics listed above. But I would like to challenge the reader to seriously think about how these and other doctrinal issues affect churches that have been or are being infiltrated by the Change Movement and its agents.

Donnie

 
 Respond to this message   
John Rebman
(no login)
66.42.219.73

Re: “I enjoy this forum.”

August 19 2005, 8:00 AM 

Donnie,
I note that you have the "Holy Spirit" on your list of doctrines. We see the Holy Spirit and the Incarnation in Matthew 1:23...."Imnanuel." The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary: Luke 1:35; Matt. 1:18-20. The fullness of the Godhead in the Son: Col. 2:9; 2 Cor. 5:19.
Jesus begotten of the Father: John 1:18; Ats 13:33.
Jesus came of His own free will: Phil. 2:6,7.

Would you digress on the Holy Spirit at Pentecost for the students of this board and relate this manifestation with the question asked by the Jews: "what does this mean? (vs 12) with John the Baptists rebuke to the Pharisees and Sadducees in Matthew 3...

I ask this, because we see that it was this governing body of Israel's temple centered religion who were first "promised" the "baptism of the Holy Spirit," noting vs 11 of Matthew 3. So, if these men were to be "first," and we "first" see the manifestation of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost on the twelve (many teach and believe that "all were filled," or the 120).....Well, by now I am sure you get the drift of my question....

I have read many of the common theories of the purpose of Pentecost such as Creation and credentialing of the Apostles, but the Bible does not say that. These men had been working miracles for a number of months. There are those who would say: "This was empowerment of the discouraged disciples," and their are those today who feel this is extended as a "general promise," but the Bible does not say that. We could probably get an agreement with many that this was an "equipping of the disciples, i.e., tongues for communication," but the Bible does not say that. We know that Greek was spoken by all men at that time, Peter could have delivered his message in Greek or Hebrew to the "men of Judaea and all that dwell in Jerusalem,....." and be understood.

So, the question I would like for you to teach concerning the doctrine of the Holy Spirit comes from Luke's text in Acts 2, "what does this mean?" I know with your expert "handling of the Word," we can look forward to an accurate answer.
Thank you,
JR

 
 Respond to this message   
Mark Waggoner
(no login)
192.31.106.36

Re: “I enjoy this forum.”

August 19 2005, 11:41 AM 

The Scriptures are clear regarding the purpose of Pentecost and this purpose is the beggining of Christ's church. Isaiah 2:2-3 and Daniel 2:44 prophesied of the church hundreds of years before. Ephesians 3:10-11 tells us that the church was part of God's eternal purpose; meaning, that the church was not an afterthought. Jesus promised that He would build His church (Matthew 16:18) and that it would come with power (Mark 9:1). We see all of these come to pass in Acts chapter 2. If one looks at all references to "the church" prior to Acts 2, they will see that it is referred to in the future tense. All references made of the church following the events recorded in Acts 2 are made in either past or present tense.

Mark Waggoner

 
 Respond to this message   
John Rebman
(no login)
66.42.219.73

Re: “I enjoy this forum.”

August 20 2005, 8:28 AM 

Mark, thank you for your response, but this was not the answer Peter gave those men dwelling in Judaea and Jerusalem on this day. He did not mention the prophecy of Isaiah 2, or Daniel 2, but that of Joel, Samuel, David and Zechariah. Would a Jew have seen the coming of the church of Christ when he asked: "what does this mean?" Did Peter say, "why brother's we have just been baptized with the Holy Spirit, we feel good, and you need to join church"?

Do we see the "baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire" on the "Pharisees and Sadusees" as "first promised" by John on the banks of the Jordan in Peter's message? Say "no," because we do not!

Mark, the preponderence of evidence in Peter's address to these men leads to verse 40 of Acts 2: "save yourselves from this crooked generation." Is this not the "generation" that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 23?
Say "yes," because it is!
Hear the Lord again: "You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell?"

Keep in mind Mark.....Peter was not directing his message to Gentiles. A Gentile there on that day would have had no more idea of what was happening than 98 percent of our people today in the churches of Christ when asked, "what is the answer to Acts 2:12: "what does this mean"?

If we could ever get our preacher's to put the "milk" back into the refrigerator and begin to hand out some good red "meat" from the pulpit we would not have seen the "Change Agents," as reported on this board take over the pulpit's of a "reed shaken in the wind," clothed in soft raiment,"
JR

 
 Respond to this message   
Mark Waggoner
(no login)
192.31.106.35

Re: “I enjoy this forum.”

August 24 2005, 9:03 AM 

My response was specific to the question of the "purpose of Pentecost". The significance of the question recorded in Act 2:12 lies in the fact that these uneducated Galileans were speaking and everyone heard them in their own language. Peter's response was initiated by the mocking supposition that the apostles were drunk, which he turns to Joel's prophesy to dispell. The beginning of his message was to vindicate the apostles' conduct from the reproach that was laid upon them. He accomplished this by (1) Showing that this could not be reasonably explained to be the effects of new wine - verse 15 (2) Showing that the appearance of the Holy Spirit was predicted by the Jewish prophets - verses 16-21 (3) Proving the resurrection and ascension of Christ, also in harmony with Jewish prophecies - verses 22-35. The overall purpose for this response was the establishment of the church.

Mark Waggoner

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(no login)
67.32.218.179

Lead us into discussing what … specifically?

August 20 2005, 9:05 PM 

John,

I started out entitling this post, “God’s holy Spirit, the indwelling, ‘the Trinity.’ ” But I changed my mind soon after re-reading your original post a number of times, as well as your response to Mark’s comments. I thought Mark was specific enough in bringing up the prophesied kingdom that was fulfilled at Pentecost, and I would have said the same thing. Now, I’m not sure as to which direction this discussion is going.

O.K., I am quoting the list of references you initially provided. Could this possibly help or hinder the readers in determining what you would really like discussed, since your first statements mentioned the “Holy Spirit”?

  • Matthew 1:[23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

  • Luke 1:[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

  • Colossians 2:[9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

  • 2 Corinthians 5:[19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

  • John 1:[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

  • Acts 13:[33] God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

  • Philippians 2:[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

From the passages you quoted, as well as from your own statements, I am somewhat confused. I gather the following items as potential topics for discussion, but it is common knowledge that a discussion goes nowhere when covering a variety of subject matters is involved. Here’s the list of possible topics from your post:

  • The virgin birth of Jesus Christ … the Emmanuel … the Savior … the Son of God
  • The holy Ghost [or God’s holy Spirit?]
  • Mary’s conception being of the holy Ghost [or of God’s holy Spirit?]
  • The overshadowing by “the power of the Highest” [power—hmmm!]
  • The fullness of the Godhead [Is this the same as the “Trinity”?]
  • That “God was in Christ” [What does it mean?]
  • “No man hath seen God at any time” [What does it mean?]
  • “He hath raised up Jesus again” [What is this?]
  • The equality with God
  • Manifestation of God’s holy Spirit at Pentecost
  • John the Baptist and the “kingdom of heaven” preached
  • John the Baptist and the Pharisees and Sadducees
  • Baptism of the holy Spirit
  • To whom was the baptism of the holy Spirit “promised”?
  • Who “received” the baptism of the holy Spirit [“first” and/or “only”]?
  • The purpose of [what happened at] Pentecost
  • The working of miracles and Pentecost
  • “Empowerment” and its extension
  • “Tongues for communication” [speaking in tongues?]
  • Etc., etc., etc.

Maybe, you have only one question in mind which is simply concerning “the Holy Spirit at Pentecost for the students of this board” [your words]. But then with your “flowery” expressions like Allan’s [pardon me, Allan], the reader may be impressed and at the same time confused. Isn’t there such a possibility? I know I am “confounded. . . .” Perhaps, I should politely ask you, John, to rephrase your one question a bit more specifically?

Donnie

 
 Respond to this message   
allan
(no login)
68.59.255.103

No pardon needed

August 21 2005, 3:00 AM 

Donnie,

You need no pardon from me. I was glad to see some humor. The good news is that, with the help of my good Church of Christ brothers, the flowers are slowly being pulled out of my life.

Again, that is just humor. If you didn't laugh, just ignore it and put the greek history book down. Sorry again, that was some more humor.

I will stop.
allan

 
 Respond to this message   
John Rebman
(no login)
66.42.219.73

Re: Lead us into discussing what … specifically?

August 21 2005, 2:48 PM 

Donnie, I did not mean to "confuse" you. I thought I was clear on the question: "what does this mean?" from Acts 2:12. Either the "Pharisees and Sadusees" were to be the "first" to be "baptized with the Holy Spirit," or John was a false prophet[Ma.3], or did he nail it, by Peter's answer. Now, I do not know how to make that any clearer.
JR


 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(no login)
67.32.218.179

Thanks, John!

August 21 2005, 5:44 PM 

Thanks for responding.

I'll save this space for my reply later on. Got to run.

Donnie

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(no login)
67.32.218.179

The Pharisees and Sadducees and Baptism with the Holy Ghost

August 22 2005, 4:56 AM 

John,

In your preceding posts, you listed a number of references and made comments which I thought were somewhat irrelevant to what you wanted discussed. Sorry about my misreading your original specific intent. I think your latest statement has made it clearer for me. The only part I’m not sure of is the “he” in the clause, “… or did he nail it, by Peter's answer.” I would assume that John is the antecedent to the pronoun “he” rather than “he” referring to Peter himself. Anyway, thanks!

I understand your question or premise in reference to the prophesied coming of the kingdom or the church and its establishment to be as follows:

  • It was John the Baptist who made a declaration that “you” in “… he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire” (Matt. 3:11) consisted of the Pharisees and Sadducees in Matt. 3:7.

  • If the Pharisees and Sadducees were to be “the first to be baptized with the Holy Spirit,” this leaves us with the possibility that there were others to follow (also experience the same), such as the apostles or the 120 gathered.

  • If the Pharisees and Sadducees were not to be “the first to be baptized with the Holy Spirit,” then John the Baptist was a false prophet.

  • But if John the Baptist was not a false prophet, Peter’s “answer” confirmed that it was indeed [your words] “this governing body of Israel’s temple centered religion who (the Pharisees and Sadducees) were first promised the baptism of the Holy Spirit.”

My response follows: First, it is very important that we do not take the audience, the messenger and timeline in Matt. 3:1-11 out of context. It would be ludicrous to assume that because John the Baptist was speaking to those that came from “Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,” that ALL of them (the entire populace) were baptized. That Jesus came to earth to be the Savior of the world or the Savior of all men (John 4:42; I John 4:14; I Tim. 4:10) is a similar analogy in that neither the entire world nor all human beings would be saved.

Using the same analogy above and understanding many other related passages pertaining to the establishment of the kingdom or the church that was prophesied in the Old Testament (Isaiah 2:1-3; Micah 4:1,2; Daniel 2:44-45; 7:13,14) and in the New Testament as well (references below), we should be able to grasp that John the Baptist’s proclamation that “the kingdom of heaven is at hand” was general in scope. In other words, that proclamation concerning the inevitability of the kingdom to be established was universal in nature. And his statement that “he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire” (Matt. 3:11) was also a universal message. In other words, the reception (not a commandment) of this type of baptism was certainly to occur. The specifics in regard to the fulfillment of either the coming KINGDOM [who should be part of it] and the manifestation of the POWER [who were chosen to receive it] are supported by a number of passages in the New Testament.

To reiterate, the baptism with the Holy Ghost was as inevitable as the establishment of the kingdom. Was everyone going to be in that kingdom? Of course, not! Would the baptism with the Holy Ghost be received by all those from “Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan—including the Pharisees and Sadducees? Of course, NOT! In fact, John the Baptist said to them specifically (the Pharisees and Sadducees), “O generation of vipers.” Can you envision THOSE Pharisees and Sadducees being grouped with the chosen apostles—the very ones who were told “that they should not depart from Jerusalem but to wait for the promise to be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence”?

Please take note that the birth of Jesus and His kingdom were announced to Mary. “…Fear not, Mary … thou shalt … bring forth a son … and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.” (Luke 1:30-33) Again, considering all other relevant passages, did that announcement make Mary one of those to receive that baptism?

It wasn’t only John the Baptist who preached that “the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Remember when after the devil tempting Jesus showed him “all the kingdoms of the world,” he began to preach, “Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mark 4). He was telling Peter, Andrew, James, John … “Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.”

Prior to Jesus’ transfiguration before Peter, James and John, Mark 9:1 states—“And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.” This passage speaks of the imminence of the establishment of the church come with POWER.

The narrative in Luke 24:33-49 portrays that while they were with others, Christ, prior to his ascension, found the “eleven gathered together” who were told, “…that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.” Obviously, Christ was not addressing the Pharisees and Sadducees in this instance.

Matthew 16:[18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. … [28] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Now, can we not agree that the establishment of the kingdom (or the beginning of the church) goes hand in hand with the baptism with the Holy Ghost? Keep in mind that the “gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations” (Matt. 4:23; 9:35; 24:14; Mark 1:14)—first to the Jews and later to the Gentiles. To the Jews first, this baptism with the Holy Ghost that was received by the apostles, as explained in the beginning chapters of Acts, was the only recorded occurrence of its kind.

Finally, let’s take a look at the first verses in the first chapter of Acts—this should be self-explanatory:

    [1] The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, [2] Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: [3] To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: [4] And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. [5] For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. [6] When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? [7] And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. [8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. … [25] That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. [26] And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

    Acts 2:[1] And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. [2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. [3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. [4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    [5] And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. [6] Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. … [8] And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

    [13] Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. [14] But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: [15] For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

    [37] Now when they [a] heard this, they were pricked in their heart [believed], and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? [38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    [41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. [42] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. [47] … And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

There’s nothing else to be stated here except the prophecy concerning the kingdom came to pass—the kingdom and the church being used interchangeably in these passages. The history of the early church in Acts clearly emphasizes the chosen apostles, the apostles being endowed with that POWER, the apostles’ ministry, the apostles’ doctrine.

I wonder what became of the “chosen” Pharisees and Sadducees (a generation of vipers) when the KINGDOM came with POWER!!!!

Donnie

 
 Respond to this message   
John Rebman
(no login)
72.49.62.71

Re: The Pharisees and Sadducees and Baptism with the Holy Ghost

August 24 2005, 11:54 AM 

Donnie,
Great response....I agree with your hermeneutics on the Holy Spirit....but, I have a different understanding of the term "generation" as Jesus used this in Matthew.

We see a "sign" at Pentecost not unlike we see at Siani, Jesus often rebuked the Jews for "seeking a sign" [Mk. 8:11, John 6:30, Ma. 12:38]. Pentecost, as Siani was a "no doubter." It would have taken professional help to have missed that sign from God. The Holy Spirit coming with "power" credentialed the twelve at Pentecost as speaking for God, in announcing the New Covenant, as did the phenomenon at Siani, as Moses spoke to the people in Exodus 19:25.

The Jews question "what does this mean?" I believe pertains to the twelve speaking to them in their "own tongue where they were born." The Jew expected God to speak to them in Hebrew. Paul knew that he could get the Jews attention, or silence them by speaking Hebrew: noting Acts 22:2.

I believe here, we see God showing these "devout" Jews that their "Jewishness" meant absolutely nothing in the coming kingdom. Note Isaiah 28:11: "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this peopls."
Here we see judgment upon the Northern Kingdom of Israel.

At Pentecost we see "judgment" coming to national Israel, or the "baptism of fire" as prophesied by John the Baptist in Matthew 3. I see at Pentecost, Peter preaching the funeral service for a nation that had killed the prophets and the Son of God. Jesus gives us an insight to this judgment in Matthew 21: the parable of the husbandmen. We see the "baptism of fire" on an "adulteres generation" as the Romans destroyed national Israel.
JR



 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(no login)
68.19.211.169

Flowery—“Peter preaching the funeral service for a nation that….”

August 26 2005, 12:33 AM 

John,

I’m not sure what you meant by: “I agree with your hermeneutics on the Holy Spirit…” Would you please explain? Or, perhaps, we should review my understanding of your question or premise that I summarized earlier. In your next post, please indicate a “yes” or “no” to this question: “Did Donnie understand John’s premise regarding the Pharisees and Sadducees receiving the baptism with the Holy Ghost?” Let me repeat the bulleted items in my earlier post—which are numbered items this time:

    I understand your question or premise in reference to the prophesied coming of the kingdom or the church and its establishment to be as follows:

  1. It was John the Baptist who made a declaration that “you” in “… he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire” (Matt. 3:11) consisted of the Pharisees and Sadducees in Matt. 3:7.

  2. If the Pharisees and Sadducees were to be “the first to be baptized with the Holy Spirit,” this leaves us with the possibility that there were others to follow (also experience the same), such as the apostles or the 120 gathered.

  3. If the Pharisees and Sadducees were not to be “the first to be baptized with the Holy Spirit,” then John the Baptist was a false prophet.

  4. But if John the Baptist was not a false prophet, Peter’s “answer” confirmed that it was indeed [your words] “this governing body of Israel’s temple centered religion who (the Pharisees and Sadducees) were first promised the baptism of the Holy Spirit.”

John, I’m a little bit concerned when you said, “… but, I have a different understanding of the term ‘generation’ as Jesus used this in Matthew.” I gather that you were trying to explain the term “generation” in the remainder of your recent post. I have no intention to argue your understanding of such a term as I consider it trivial when we try to relate it to the main premise concerning the Holy Ghost.

My bigger concern is that nothing has been made clear to me as to what your real position is in regard to your original question. I’m confused again in that you did not mention in your preceding post “the Pharisees and Sadducees and the baptism with the Holy Ghost”—which I thought was the main subject of our discussion.

So, are those four (4) items to remain as “conditional” statements that usually begin with the word “IF” … or, are we now prepared to make them declarative statements? If any of the following declarative statements as numbered is inaccurate, please let us know:

  1. (T/F)_____John the Baptist said, “he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire” (Matt. 3:11)—which event occurred per Acts 2:1-4—but in looking at other passages describing the event, John was not referring to the Pharisees and Sadducees as the recipients of this baptism.

  2. (T/F)_____There’s no evidence that the Pharisees and Sadducees received the baptism with the Holy Ghost; therefore, they were neither the first nor the only ones who received this form of baptism. Only the apostles “receive[d] power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you….”—and no other people, not even those who were gathered with the apostles (Acts 1:8).

  3. (T/F)_____The Pharisees and Sadducees, by not receiving this special power, did not make John the Baptist a false prophet nor his message false.

  4. (T/F)_____John the Baptist was not a false prophet, and what Peter confirmed had nothing to do with the Pharisees and Sadducees receiving power—which was given only to the apostles. In fact when he had to explain that the eleven men with him were not “drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day” confirms that only the apostles were baptized with the Holy Ghost and received POWER.

John, I am hoping that you will help me clarify the issue concerning the Pharisees and the Sadducees being baptized with the Holy Ghost before or during or after the day of Pentecost.

That the “Holy Spirit” was one of the topics discussed at meforevidence’s forum [see the initial thread] is the only reason why I included it in the list of doctrinal issues that are associated with the troubles that change agents have created in the brotherhood of the churches of Christ. There are other issues besides the “direct influence of God’s holy Spirit in the Christian.” Another issue is regarding the observance of the Lord’s Supper. Another issue is the congregation having a “Worship Leader” [huh?] and a musical worship team called “Praise Team” [he-he-he … it’s not as repulsive and objectionable as the church of Christ having a “choir”] performing the “music” program for the congregation. You, see, the list is not limited to those just mentioned. In other words, it was simply an “awareness” list to warn congregations when — “The Change Agents Are Coming!!! The Change Agents Are Coming!!!”

Donnie

 
 Respond to this message   
 
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

Click Here......The Book is Available Now FREE

Place your banner ad here.           See all banner ads

...ConcernedMembers.com ...About ...Links Library ...Sunday School in Exile ...Help Warn Others


FastCounter by bCentral