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For those of you that always find something wrong with everyone

October 23 2005 at 5:34 PM
Eddie Williams  (no login)
from IP address

RO 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2 One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

RO 14:5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

RO 14:9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is written:

" `As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
`every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "

RO 14:12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

RO 14:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15 If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16 Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

RO 14:19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

RO 14:22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

RO 15:1 We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2 Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. 3 For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me." 4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

RO 15:5 May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6 so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

RO 15:7 Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. 8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs 9 so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written:

"Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
I will sing hymns to your name."

RO 15:10 Again, it says,

"Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."

RO 15:11 And again,

"Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
and sing praises to him, all you peoples."

RO 15:12 And again, Isaiah says,

"The Root of Jesse will spring up,
one who will arise to rule over the nations;
the Gentiles will hope in him."

RO 15:13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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For Those of You Who Continue to Spurn the New Testament

October 23 2005, 9:21 PM 

From the King James Bible:

Rom. 16:17 "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."

Rom. 16:18 "For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."

Gal. 1:6 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:"

Gal. 1:7 "Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ."

Gal. 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

Gal. 1:9 "As we said before, so say I now again, if any (man) preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

Gal. 1:10 "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."

Gal. 1:11 "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man."

Gal. 1:12 "For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught (it), but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Yes, there are disputable things in life, and even in the Church, like the hour of worship, order of worship, the number of songs sung, and even heating and cooling units, for example. These do not alter the basic doctrine of the New Testament. The doctrine of the New Testament is not disputable. When the Church alters the New Testament pattern of worship and Christian living and introduces worldly practices so that it becomes like the world, it violates Romans 12:2 and James 4:4. Christians must learn to live and worship according to the indisputable pattern as set forth in the New Testament. To consider the New Testament doctrine as "disputable" introduces discord and strife. It is a reflection of man's preferences over Christ's commands.

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This is Tom, Not PBLCOC

King James Version

April 30 2006, 1:54 AM 

Dr. Bill Crump,

Thank you for your post. Your post has a wealth of information in it that I need I am not trying to be smart with you but do you mind if I ask you a honest question? Why do you use the King James Version? I might have some questions for you later on.

Thank you for your time.


Readers, do me favor and let me know if you think that I am being sarcastic. Knowledge without love is nothing.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

RE: King James Version

April 30 2006, 3:40 PM 

Tom, thanks for your question. I believe the KJV to be a reliable translation, a literal word-for-word translation and not a paraphrase, of the Greek manuscripts that have survived the ravages of time. I believe the KJV puts into very formal English as close a meaning as we can get to what the manuscripts intended to say, given the problems with languages, without altering the original meaning of the original authors.

Further reasons are too complex to outline here. That would be like asking me to tell you everything there is to know about medicine. But there are scholarly treatises on the KJV that compare that translation to the modern versions and paraphrases like the NIV, Living Bible, and The Message. A good place to start is the online study entitled SPIRITUAL DECEPTION IN THE HIGHEST: An In-Depth Study of the Authorized King James Bible vs. All Other "Modern Versions." The link is:

One problem with the modern translations and paraphrases is that they are based primarily on the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, two fourth-century manuscripts which have been proven to be monstrously flawed. Yet modern scholars still "rely" on these texts, because they are supposedly the "oldest" extant manuscripts we have of the New Testament. But in this case, "older" is not always "better."

A valuable but difficult work which discredits these two codices is that by Dean John Burgon, a 19th-century English vicar, who wrote The Last Twelve Verses of Mark. This work proves the validity of Mark 16:9-20, a passage which many modern translations otherwise treat as spurious. Hence, modern translations either place such passages in brackets, banish them as footnotes, or delete them altogether. By dealing with Mark 16, Burgon also shows how flawed the two codices are. Burgon's works should be available in most public libraries.

Another source is the Trinitarian Bible Society, which publishes authoritative information about the KJV, its history, its translation, those who made the translation, and articles comparing the KJV with modern versions. You can order materials from them at:

I hope this steers you in the right direction, for it summarizes the sources I have used to convince me that the original KJV (not the New KJV) is a far superior translation (despite some archaic words) to any modern translation. The RSV and ASV would probably be as reliable, although I have less experience with them. I don't use the KJV because of tradition; I use it because of what I learned through study.

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Thank you

May 1 2006, 2:27 AM 

Thank you for the great information.

As you can tell that I have not checked into this but I personally cannot stand the King James Version. I use the easy to read version because it's easy to read. I have both the easy to read and the niv paper versions and I also have more versions on e-sword.

Have a great day.


Palm Beach Lakes Church of Christ
West Palm Beach, Florida

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

RE: Thank You

May 1 2006, 9:00 AM 

Tom, just like the two codices, in which older is not necessarily better, remember that just because a Bible version is easier to read does not necessarily make it a more accurate translation. Contrary to popular belief, all Bible versions are not the same.

You may also want to peruse the thread entitled "Are All Bibles the Same? Do All Bibles Contain the Inspired Word of God?" which is located in the Sunday School in Exile forum here on this site.

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(Login will take you to the Madison COC website.

May 1 2006, 2:34 AM 

Something tricky is going on. I put in and it took me to the Madison COC website. I might be telling you something that you already know.


Have a great day,


Palm Beach Lakes Church of Christ
West Palm Beach, Florida

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)


May 1 2006, 9:09 AM 

Thank you. Yes, we're well aware of that. It's a ploy that the Madison Church uses to steer as many people away from the CM site as possible, for obvious reasons.

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Ken Sublett
(no login)

Slick Willies

May 1 2006, 12:23 PM 

The NEW Madison is built on the INFILTRATE and DIVERT. As a way to use the Concerned Members popularity they got the .org version. So when you THINK you are goint to concerned members they DIVERT you to Madison. Isn't that slicker than a salted slug. Very devious!

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Tom Brite
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Re: Slick Willies

May 1 2006, 6:05 PM 

Just FYI, and I think I pointed this out a few years ago, the same goes for

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Ken Sublett
(no login)

SINGING silences Romans 14-15!

October 23 2005, 10:51 PM 

The reason that ALL MUSIC is associated with Satan, prostitutes and Sodomites in RELIGIONISM is that it was BROUGHT to earth by Satan to BLEED OFF worship due to God and SILENCE His Word. Making a Spectacle of Worship INTENDS to tell Jesus Christ our only Teacher and Comfort Speaker to "shut His face." Even if there was a preacher who understood Romans 14-15 if he described it AFTER all of the brains had been thrown into schizophrenia which Paul called MADNESS, it would not be possible to COMPREHEND the message of the chapters. I hope you will copy this out and try to comprehend the fact that Paul OUTLAWS outward forms of MUSIC based on common sense for the "school of the Bible" if nothing else.

BOTH of the PAGAN SECTS in Rome were highly musical and charismatic. Paul speaks of the Orphics who did not drink wine and lived on nuts. The Dionysiacs drank wine, ate meat and were also addicted to the homosexual rituals with music. The KINGDOM does not consist of external things but it is DEFILED by what comes out of the mouth. MEATS are to prove that the KINGDOM IS WITHIN YOU and nothing you can do to satisfy or deprive the FLESH has any value.
    Matt 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which COMETH out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Jesus had just alluded to both Isaiah and Ezekiel who connect MOUTH RELIGION to beautiful singing and playing instruments. This is connected to the HOMOSEXUAL ritals the Jews were lusting for.

We KNOW from history that these two MUSICAL sects caused problems in Rome until their WORSHIP SERVICES were finally outlawed. Paul didn't STOP defining the DISCORDING elements in chapter 14 when he began chapter 15. (You know, there is no break between CHAPTERS.)

Besides NOT making the PEACEABLE ASSEMBLY DIVISIVE over MEATS and DRINKS, Paul said to those with Eyes and Ears: "DON'T SOW DISCORD OVER MUSIC. "

NEXT, Paul says DON'T PLEASURE YOURSELVES In your assemblies but do EDUCATION ONLY. The word PLEASURE speaks of SINGING which was used to LIFT UP the people or PLEASURE them SEXUALLY. The ACT behind pleasuring was called HERESY where the DEMAGOGUE carried them away for his OWN PLEASURE AND PROFIT. The word KLEPTOMAI is connected.

Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to EDIFICATION. (education) Rom 15: 2
    For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. Rom 15: 3
If SINGING sexually-arousing erotic praise songs DO NOT EDUCATE people about THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN then this is a DIRECT LAW CONDEMNING IT.

For whatsoever things were WRITTEN AFORETIME were written for our LEARNING, that we through PATIENCE and COMFORT of the SCRIPTURES might have hope. Rom 15: 4

Now, whatsoever was written is the SCRIPTURES. In Colossians 3 and Ephesians 5 he calls them Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual songs. These are ALL types of the BOOK of Psalms and much of the other Bible in metrical form. YOU CANNOT MAKE A MISTAKE. THEREFORE, IT IS A DELIBERATE EFFORT TO SPIT IN THE FACE OF JESUS CHRIST OUR HOLY SPIRIT COMFORTER.

ONLY Jesus is our MEDIATOR or INTERCESSOR: He COMFORTS as the PARAKLESIS through the WORDS OF THE PARAKLETOS. If your singy-clappy is NOT named Jesus Christ then He is not THE Holy Spirit and HE is the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION claiming to BE God.
    1 Jn. 2:1 MY little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the righteous:
Jesus the ONLY PARAKLETOS said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and they are LIFE (John 6:63).
      with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH

    He calls that SCRIPTURE and

    He says that this is HOW Jesus Christ COMFORTS us through the Word.

    That is also EDIFICATION or EDUCATION.

    And it is the ONLY way to Glorify GOD who as THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST inspired the Scriptures.

    And it is the ONLY way to KEEP THE UNITY of the Assembly.
You remember that Paul never commanded SINGING but SPEAKING one to another to TEACH and ADMONISH one another. All of the resources Paul defined are inspired by the Spirit of Christ.

Teaching is not SANGING but speaking to one another with Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs which are ALL the inspired text. The word SING is ODE and means to speak and it further defines PSALMOS as in "Hebrew Cantillation." That is why Paul said SPEAK to one another and not SING to one another..
    Didaskalia (g1319) did-as-kal-ee'-ah; from 1320; instruction (the function or the information): - DOCTRINE, LEARNING, TEACHING.

    The direct command to Timothy was:

    Till I come, give attendance to [public] reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 1 Tim 4:13

    Attendance is a "worship" word meaning to hold the mind to.
Disciples are MADE by baptizing and teaching what Jesus taught and revealed through the apostles. Every school boy who aspired to be a DISCIPLE of a master tentmaker could comprehend that.

Now the God of PATIENCE and CONSOLATION [paraklesis] grant you to be LIKEMINDED one toward another according to Christ Jesus: Rom 15: 5

Jesus did not try to AROUSE spiritual excitement. If He had done so He COULD NOT be a Teacher of SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE.

That ye may with one MIND and one MOUTH GLORIFY God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 15: 6

PRAISE means to tell the story of God and only God knows how. Paul defined the way to GLORIFY God which is by speaking HIS Words. If we "sang" Twila Paris then we WORSHIP Twila Paris.

That defines the ekklesia or synagogue which solves the diversity problem in Romans 14, BOTH of which had a music for PLEASURING practice.

Wherefore RECEIVE ye one another, as Christ also received us, to the glory of God. Rom 15:7

SINGING as an act as opposed to teaching was introduced in the year 373 and unity has been destroyed every time people want to MUSICATE.

The NEW STYLE PRAISE SINGING from the OLD STYLE Towers of Babylon INTENDS to sow discord to drive the old people out into the cold so they can attract body worshipers: Pleasuring is still called heresy. I sense some GLORIFYING in being able to sow discord?

PRAISE means to tell the story. How are you gonna CONFIRM the promise of the Gospel while BEING a singy-clappy Peter Pan? Huh? NOW, Paul had COMMANDED how the SYNAGOGUE or EKKLESIA is to be conducted and it NEVER had a PRAISE RITUAL. Next, Paul speaks PROPHECY and not a DIRECT COMMAND to let the girlletts in piglett tails to do RING AROUND THE ROSY.

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to CONFIRM the promises made unto the fathers:

Now, notice that Paul ALWAYS defines the EXTERNAL for ONE ANOTHER but the SINGING and MELODY is INTERNAL and is directed TOWARD GOD.

Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might GLORIFY God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause
........I will CONFESS to thee AMONG the Gentiles,
........and sing UNTO thy name.

Rom 15:11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and LAUD him, all ye people.

CONFESS involves the word SPEAK to the GENTILES and tell them about Jesus. Consistent with ALL of the other passages the SINGING is directed toward God.

You have to GO INTO ALL THE WORLD to let JESUS SING to the Jentiles

Rom 15:16 That I should be
........ the MINISTER of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles,
........ ministering the gospel of God,
........ that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable,
........ being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

You simply CANNOT put false dogma into the mouth of Paul speaking by the Holy Spirit. He clearly identifies the SINGING which went on in Rome and in all pagan religions AFTER he has cleared up the FOOD problem.

Contrary to the false teaching that the LIBERTY Paul gives us to do ANYTHING even if it sows discord, Romans 15 DIRECTLY COMMANDS the same TEACHING of the synagogue which NEVER had any superstitious PRAISE RITUAL. In fact, it was OUTLAWED for the Qahal or church in the wilderness. To prove it, the Jews NEVER had "praise singing" or instruments in the synagogue.

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(Login JC_1335)

Re: For those of you that always find something wrong with everyone

October 24 2005, 9:56 PM 


Good point. It is the utmost heresy, this new change movement that always finds something wrong with tradition Christian worship, therefore they must CHANGE things in order to suit their own lustful desires.

The change agents will always find something wrong with those who desire to worship in spirit & truth because change agents are antichrists.


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(no login)

Re: For those of you that always find something wrong with everyone

October 25 2005, 11:22 PM 


There's wrong on both sides of the coin.

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(Login JC_1335)

Re: For those of you that always find something wrong with everyone

October 26 2005, 12:59 AM 


The way I see it is those who want a "contemporary" style worship which usually includes instruments, women leadership, the rejection of preaching about hell and damnation, etc. should start their own denomination or congregation, why go into established congregations, that reject that type of worship and promote views that are rejected by it's membership and attempt to hi-jack or take over that that assembly?

The problem may be financing, and the funding needed to start their own assembly.

Since there are so many different denominations and this being a free country to start ones own assembly why don't the post-moderns go elsewhere instead of infiltrating & changing the complexion of so many once faithful orthodox churches of Christ?

Please think about this question very, very carefully.

To me it appears the post-modern agenda is interested in taking over the established congregations assets, I really see no other answer to the question which is also not unique to the churches of Christ only.


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(no login)

Re: For those of you that always find something wrong with everyone

October 26 2005, 11:36 AM 

Change is a good thing, especially if the congregation is dying or not moving forward. The way the changes are implemented can be the bad part. Education and going slowly are rules to be used.

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(Login JC_1335)

Re: For those of you that always find something wrong with everyone

October 27 2005, 1:42 AM 


You wrote:

"Change is a good thing"

but God wrote:

My son, fear the LORD and the king; Do not associate with those who are given to change, - Proverbs 24:21 nas.

Secondly, my definition of contemporary worship is worship that includes or add things that were not a normal part of church history, as I indicated earlier these include:

* theatre
* drama
* dance
* women leadership
* speaking in toungues
* amplifiers, drums, electric guitars, different instruments
* preaching a "sugar coated" gospel almost entirely about love and nothing about hell & damnation

these are a few of the growing trends in the last days church.

Remember Eddie, the Bible does indicate that as we go farther and deeper into the last days perious times will come, Apostasy will be much more rampant (2 Timothy 3, Revelation 18, etc.) and that judgement will begin with the house of God (church) see 1 Peter 4:17, certainly something to think about.

Also, as you correctly pointed out, there is two sides to a coin, so keep an open mind about this because it is very, very serious; keep reading your Bible and giving all the glory to God.


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(no login)

Re: For those of you that always find something wrong with everyone

October 27 2005, 11:46 AM 


Where have you personally observed the changes in worship you listed?

How do you reconcile the changes in technology today with the pattern of where and how they worshipped in the 1st century?


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(Login JC_1335)

Re: For those of you that always find something wrong with everyone

October 27 2005, 11:23 PM 

Dear Eddie,

I do not believe technology has a thing to do with changing how God instructed mankind to Worship Him, not one bit. In the Bible, in the very last book, in the very last chapter, God warns we are not to add or take away from His Word (Revelation 22:18,19) and this includes the mode of worship. Sunday sabbath worship is simply the gathering together with other saints who are likeminded (Hebrews 10:25) to:

1.) observe the LORD's supper, (1 Corinthians 11)
2.) to ask if anyone new desires to be baptized (Acts 2:38)
3.) to have older, mature, consistent members of the assemly teach the Word to the congregation and newer members (Acts 2:42; James 3:1)
4.) to address any benevolence requests of the brethren
5.) to pray (Matthew 18:20, Acts 1:14)
6.) perhaps sing a Psalm or a faithful hymn upon gathering and dismissing the assembly

Technology does not change the essential teachings one bit, the only difference maybe something like using lights instead of candles or a lampstand or having a baptismal instead of using a lake, but in either case I do not believe subtle changes such as these are adding to the commandments of the very simplistic assembly that God has commanded and outlined in His Word given to us.


"How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!" - Daniel 12:12.

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(no login)

Re: For those of you that always find something wrong with everyone

October 28 2005, 2:47 PM 


You have not answered the questions. You did do a good job of skirting around them.


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(Login JC_1335)

Re: For those of you that always find something wrong with everyone

October 29 2005, 3:23 PM 


It is apparent that you are one of those who has no desire to learn what the Bible itself says about how Christians are to assemble so I'll stop wasting my breath right now.


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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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