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frank
(no login)
68.53.134.206

Re: RE: "Contemporary" Services, etc.

May 18 2006, 6:07 AM 

bill,

many hymns have been written during those dates you mention. you probably sing some in your assembly (if you attend one).

i dare say there was no a capella in the early church, or 4 part harmony for that fact. most likely it was chanting. does it really matter that we be precise? is reverence not enough? if precision is the key, could you list those things and how they be done?

once again, i'm not for the holy entertainment that is prevalent in many places. i have no problem with current offerings of praise that have been penned around the psalms or other scripture. i'm sure that offerings like the Lord's prayer, set to tune, are not offensive to God. do you ever sing that one? (Lk 11:2ff)

how about that monetary gift each week? who do we send them to in jerusalem? do we have a specific group of widows and orphans to give them to? can we justify other uses by the Word? have we become contemporary in that area?

i'm not looking for an arguement, just wondering how we determine where to draw the lines. who does the drawing?

frank

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.217.165.172

Re: RE: "Contemporary" Services, etc.

May 18 2006, 10:34 AM 

The guide for worship is the New Testament. Follow it. If a precise line must be drawn, we may be precise by not going beyond the pattern and principle of worship outlined therein.

Hymns can be written without resorting to pop culture techniques; that is, written to praise and glorify God with reverence, not to the please and entertain worldy minded, emotionally driven congregants.

The monetary contribution is distributed to those who need it most, just as the first-century Christians did. Follow the pattern, the principle, the plan as outlined in the New Testament.

The New Testament commands speaking to ourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in the heart to God (Eph. 5:19). Since we have the general commands to "speak" and to "sing" but are not commanded how to sing, then the manner of singing is left up to us; that is, chanting as well as 4-, 5-, or 6-part harmony for that matter are scriptural. Again, follow the pattern, the principle, the plan as outlined in the New Testament.

As stated earlier, the word "contemporary" in American churches today applies to that which would make the church more pleasing and acceptable to the world, but not necessarily to follow the New Testament pattern and principle for worship. "Contemporary" today not only appeals to pop culture, it seeks to abandon the somber, orderly "traditional" worship pattern of ages past and replace it with eye and ear candy, because worldly entertainment is far more pleasing to a godless society than a serious study of the Word and serious worship.

So let's cut to the chase. Arguments maintaing that worship assemblies always have been, are, and always will be "contemporary" are merely justifications for making the church more like, and more appealing to, the world. Romans 12:2, James 4:4, and 1 John 2:15-17.


 
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frank
(no login)
68.53.134.206

Re: RE: "Contemporary" Services, etc.

May 18 2006, 2:14 PM 

ppb,

i know God has desires for man such as salvation and holiness. your statement inferred that He has needs. i was just curious as to what they may be. i was not aware that He was in need of anything. if there are some needs He is lacking, please present them.

frank

 
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frank
(no login)
68.53.134.206

Re: RE: "Contemporary" Services, etc.

May 18 2006, 11:44 PM 

bill,

i have no problem with your worship analysis. i do have one question here though about the following statement.

"The monetary contribution is distributed to those who need it most, just as the first-century Christians did. Follow the pattern, the principle, the plan as outlined in the New Testament."

i would venture to guess that the bulk of the contribution at most assemblies is not distributed as you have noted. how about your congregation? does 80% or more go to the poor? i'm betting most goes to staff, benefits, building and etc. we have changed the pattern to the clergy class on the dole. i believe brother ken refers to them as the staff infection.

frank

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
68.19.221.136

“Staff Infection”

May 19 2006, 5:08 AM 

That’s exactly the point. Mega churches are too heavily involved in “Worship Ministry.” Where did the leadership (the elders) get the idea that worship is about “musical worship” and that worship is a ministry?

You see … a mega congregation can very easily “afford” to abuse the saints’ collection [“as God has prospered” them] by providing a “Worship Leader” full-time employment with benefits in lieu of part-time services—mainly by wagging his arms, providing holy laughter, a couple of hours a week? And calling these wagging-arms services … um … “serving the Master” … um … compensated with big buck$$$$ from the church treasury?

A great example of the “staff infection” prevalent in mega churches—the misuse and abuse of the saints’ collection!

Donnie

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.217.164.134

Re: “Staff Infection”

May 19 2006, 9:46 AM 

The mega-churches today are far more prone to sink large sums of money into "worship" entertainment programs to please and wow their congregants, in addition to providing robust salaries for church officers. For example, several years ago the newspaper in my city featured an article about a large, popular church that had spent over a million bucks to upgrade its "worship center" with state-of-the-art sound and lighting equipment and other trappings to enhance their drama/worship performances. The article noted a trend for more churches to acquire the "look and feel of performing arts centers." Such churches have lost sight of their worship priorities according to New Testament standards, including financial priorities. This hasn't always been the case. Only when the church growth schemes entered the picture did inflated churches really take a nose dive away from following New Testament worship standards. The same can hardly be said of smaller, rural churches of Christ, the services of which are plain, simple, and far more peaceful and reverent, not to mention the limited finances which are distributed to those who need them the most.

 
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This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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