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The Madison-Hermitage Connection

January 3 2006 at 1:24 AM		   (no login)
from IP address 70.156.28.188
Recent events at the Hermitage congregation have been brought up in the thread “EMAIL RESPONSE!” Perhaps, not exactly the appropriate thread to discuss such matters as it would be on the “More Churches” forum: cf. link to ConcernedMembers’

Personally, I deem it necessary to begin a new thread by the above title for a number of reasons—but mainly because of similar painful experiences that another congregation of the Lord’s church is going through. When we hear that “we have gone from 700-800 attending on Sunday to 500”—we are saddened. When someone expresses “… and my heart is heavy because of what’s happening,” I’m reminded of the fact that this is certainly not the first time it’s been said.

O.K.! A couple of statements (as above) should suffice what we believe this congregation needs—our prayers that the infection may not further spread and that its leadership may be cognizant of the fact that it’s just not worth it if and when one congregation travels down that same road that another congregation has already trod.

It goes without saying that Phil Barnes, current “pulpit minister” at Madison, served as “pastor” for some 6 years [excuse me: perhaps “pulpit minister” was his official title—different words, nonetheless, a similar function these days]. And for that reason, can it be accurately said that “Phil and the elders” were trying “to change our worship to ‘contemporary’” … during the last year that he was there?

What about this—“that our early service became more traditional than the late”? Sounds like a congregation I know! What about this—that Phil and Kim worked in the-now-defunct Jubilee organization? Again … sounds familiar! [Of course, we know, too, that Phil was at Western Hills—another one of those “Hills”—before he moved to Madison.]

What about this—that one elder, ____________, “secretly brought in a praise team from Madison”? Uh-oh! Keith Lancaster, Madison’s “Musical Worship Leader,” is in the picture.

The warning—“We had several transplants from Madison that tried to warn people what was happening. … Our Sunday worship attendance is now around 400….”

Is that true … about the attendance?

We’ll see in a bit.

Donnie

 
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Online Stats

January 3 2006, 1:53 AM 

Is that true … about the attendance? Well, I have compiled the following stats posted in 2005 from Hermitage’s online bulletin:

    10-06-05 . . . . . 509
    10-12-05 . . . . . 406
    10-20-05 . . . . . 369
    10-27-05 . . . . . 456
    11-03-05 . . . . . 479
    11-10-05 . . . . . 382
    11-18-05 . . . . . 362
    11-30-05 . . . . . 327
    12-09-05 . . . . . 392
    12-16-05 . . . . . 372

A similar pattern at Hermitage as at Madison…. Something that a congregation’s responsible leadership should not be proud of . . . nor say, “We are experiencing growth.”

Donnie

 
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Dr. Bob
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205.188.117.65

Madison- Hermitage

January 3 2006, 7:26 AM 

Let's see? 509-137=372
That means it could have been,
509-372=137
What would you have been said of the eldership if the reverse had happened. I can tell you. They would still have been accused of dividing the church.
The truth is that in most congregations of our heritage elders serve because they are called to lead and they do so because they love the menbers to a person. No elder wants to see anyone leave. However when there are factions and division an eldership must choose the path they deem to be the right one for the church. Inevitably some will be unhappy and leave or foster division.
You and those who disagree have every right to your opinion even to the point of leaving.
What none of us have the right to do is to stand on the outside and criticise an eldership called by God to take up the mantel of leadership because of their love for the church. It is not uncommon to see most denigration of an eldership comming from those who are both qualified and even called to be shepherds, but refuse to do so while gathering others around them thus being false elders to agroup of dessenting members. Dr. Bob

 
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4.152.183.172

Our HERITAGE?

January 3 2006, 12:33 PM 

    Dr. Bob: What would you have been said of the eldership if the reverse had happened. I can tell you. They would still have been accused of dividing the church.

    The truth is that in most congregations of our heritage elders serve because they are called to lead and they do so because they love the members to a person. No elder wants to see anyone leave. However when there are factions and division an eldership must choose the path they deem to be the right one for the church. Inevitably some will be unhappy and leave or foster division.
With all respect, Dr. Bob, our HERITAGE is a hireling-changeling code word for saying that what we have believed and practiced for 2,000 years is JUST OUR TRADITIONS inherited from the oldsters. That is false: the divisive issues are well taught in the Bible and have the universal backing of Bible scholars for these 2,000 years. What is ADDED is the "traditions of men" and are always changed by an unlawful and ungodly HIRELING who has no right to exist in a local congregation. I am quite certain that the elders didn't HATCH UP the changes which were the NEW STYLE worship before Nimrod could climb to the top of the towers of Babylon. All of the changes are based on very ignorant proof-texting from the Bible of which most elders and preachers are ignorant.

Secondly, the elders were NOT CALLED by God or by the congregation in about 100% of the congregations. They are often nudged up by the preachers bent on CHANGING rather than TEACHING that which has been taught or by peer influence by other elders. Then the congregation is DARED to question their being "more apt to teach the Bible than APT to chase a coon." I have never known an elder who would be competent to withstand the sex, lies and CDS spreading false information about the nature of worship spreading out from the "spiritual stockyards."

Thirdly, if the elders are MORE QUALIFIED than deacons then they must be "filled with the holy spirit." Paul defined that as "holding the mysteries of the faith with a clear conscience." That means that ALL must be competent Bible students or they are NOT QUALIFIED in any sense of the word. I put my neck out and say that your elders were selected on business ability and most could not teach a Bible class.

Fourthly, their only RULING authority is to TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT. They are the ONLY pastor-teachers the Bible permits and it does not permit them to hire a hireling to MAKE UP for their deficit. They must also REFUTE those who teach false doctrine. That would include MOST sermonizing which was outlawed for the Synagogue.

Fifthly, the only OBEDIENCE required is to follow the instructions OF THE ELDERS and the "outcome of the elder's lives."

An elder has NO authority when a group decide to purchase and JOINTLY HOLD real estate. If they drive away the owners then they are STEALING the church house of widows as surely as if they robbed a bank. Thomas Campbell taught the general "reformation" idea that elders have NO AUTHORITY to added any burdens on the flock by incurring debt. The BURDEN Jesus died to remove was "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." Paul outlaws by defining the ekklesia as synagogue where you SPEAK that which is written using ONE MOUTH and ONE MIND as the only way to glorify God and prevent the discord of Romans 14. The PLEASURING which he outlaws points specifically to AROUSAL singing intended to LIFT UP the people to CARRY THEM AWAY (heresy) for the leaders OWN PURPOSES.

T. Campbell defined CHURCH as "a school of Christ" and WORSHIP as "reading and musing on the Word of God." That is what JESUS died to give us to free us from DOCTORS OF THE LAW who take away the key to knowledge.

If the elders are doing anything NEW which drives people out into the cold then they are robbers. Remember that Malachi 3 identifies as ROBBERS those who take of the WAGES of working people which was NOT available for the priests.

The elders need to fall back--without the lies or pressure of the preacher who when division occurs is DELIBERATELY sowing discord usually with MUSIC or WOMEN. They are criminally ignorant of the Bible's teaching against music or ANY kind of spiritual AROUSAL which is supported by ALL of church history. ALL of the use of the word PSALLO to hallucinate MUSIC in "bible class" get their ONLY authority from MALES plucking the harp and singing to GROOM the 'youth ministers' who were emasculated and proud to be the Ministers of the Goddesses.

The ELDERS need to GIVE AN ACCOUNT and they are NOT celestial beings like at Madison and they will GIVE AN ACCOUNT NOW or GIVE AN ACCOUNT TO GOD LATER. They have NO authority to change anything which SOWS DISCORD. They are in DEEP SPIRITUAL DOODO and thinking of themselves as infallible or having AUTHORITY to run over the members is a TERMINAL sin as is ADDING MUSIC in all of the literature contemporaneous with the Bible and in the Bible itself.

 
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Dr. Bob: Qualified elders “accused of dividing” anyway

January 4 2006, 7:49 AM 

I believe that we should let the Holy Scripture dictate how qualified the elders should be—they labor in the word and doctrine; they are apt to teach … and blameless, etc. When elders are not diligent “because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” (I Peter 5:8), that’s when the problem of division begins.

Dr. Bob, in your post, you were making one assumption that the elders were reacting and providing a solution to a “pre-existing condition” [sounds like one of those insurance thingies ] of faction or division in the church. But in reality, that’s hardly the case—the case being that the root of the problem is that the elders have allowed the adversary entrance to initiate the faction … in the first place.

Worse yet, after the adversary has been allowed entrance, is when one side of a DIVIDED eldership in itself makes the announcement [such as precisely the case at Madison]—“If you don’t like the changes … GET OVER IT; we must move on….”

So, “what happened at” Hermitage? Did not the elders get up in front of everybody and say, “If you do not like the changes, you could just leave”? How many would immediately stand up and leave?

Donnie

 
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Jason Shepherd

January 3 2006, 9:40 AM 

If you will retrospect you will discover Jason Shepherd repudiating either me personally or CM in general. Because CM has preached the Bible and the views of the OWNERS who are paying him an unlawful wage, he decided that the way to CURE the inflicted spiritual AIDS was by attacking those who "teach the Word as it has been taught."

LaGard Smith has pronounced that "the way to cure all of the division is to fire all of the youth ministers." Why should ELDERS be SUPPLANTED by youth which have probably been trained at Looney U or Anti Christ U.?

Deep in the heart of the end-times Apollyons and their LOCUST "musical worship teams" is not to build but to tear down and SEPARATE those with the MARK of the Word from those with the Mark of ZOE who is Lucifer called "the BEAST and the female instructing principle."

 
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Jason
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216.153.74.7

Confused

February 7 2006, 10:44 AM 

Such seemingly educated words flowing from the mouth of the ignorant.

Jason

 
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67.141.21.93

Amen

February 7 2006, 9:44 PM 

And amen!

Rick

 
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72.150.119.137

One congregation’s loss is another’s gain

January 10 2006, 7:51 AM 

Dr. Bob stated earlier:

    “Let's see? 509-137=372 … That means it could have been … 509-372=137. What would you have been said of the eldership if the reverse had happened. I can tell you. They would still have been accused of dividing the church.”

I responded to the effect that other qualifications include knowledge of the word and doctrine and the ability to teach the truth. Let me add that the elders’ decisions must not usurp the authority of the scriptures; otherwise, the church would not be anymore different in that regard than the claimed infallibility of the papacy in the Roman Catholic Church.

I’m not sure about Dr. Bob’s illustration using the above figures. It appears to me that neither figure [a net of 372 or 137] is favorable. In fact, this remark at some point needs to be taken into account: “We have gone from 700-800 attending on Sunday to 500…”—and what’s the possibility of a record attendance of 1,000?

One consolation is this: one congregation’s loss is another congregation’s gain. At least … most of the members that leave [when they’re given no other option but to “leave” or to “get over it”] seek fellowship somewhere else—with another congregation of the Lord’s church. For example, Madison’s loss—which has not been recovered—has been another church’s gain. To the church of Christ in Goodlettsville or at the neighboring Rivergate … isn’t that true?

The same is true with the Hermitage congregation! Members leaving do seek fellowship somewhere else. While it may be too late for “permanently” apostatized congregations, it may not be too late for the Hermitage body. What this body needs through prayer and prayerful and wise decisions on the part of the elders is NOT the continuance of a congregational transformation scheme [or “church growth” SCAM]. Rather, it needs the restoration of New Testament principles and guidelines for Christian growth.

Donnie

 
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120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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