THE LATIN PSALLO. You have TWO choices with the word meaning PLUCK.

First, it is the UNIVERSAL MARK of prostitutes and SODOMITES.

Second, you SING and let the PLUCKING remain in YOUR heart and NOT try to SEDUCE usually young boys.

NO ONE was so Reputation-Suicidal as to actually USE this word to AUTHORIZE what they had already done to become a MUSICIAN SECTARIAN DENOMINATION until the year 1878. No one ever accused these men--short on the Bible but LONG on charismatic induction methods--of being intellectuals. This group flowed out of Cane Ridge and ancient and modern witchcraft and/or Devil Worship including the SHOUTING METHODISTS as a Stoneite ACT OF WORSHIP.

http://www.piney.com/Layard8.html

RED TEXT IS WAYS PSALLO IS USED IN THE LITERATURE.

Psallo , i, 3, v. n., = psallô. I. In general, to play upon a stringed instrument; esp.,

IN SPECIFIC, here is how the word is used when you PLAY or PSALLO upon an instrument:

to play upon the cithara,

The word PLAY is EPI-psallô, then you MUST define WHAT is to be played.

to sing to the cithara:

The same is true You must say SING, then PLUCK and then WHAT to pluck.

psallere saltare elegantius Sall. C. 25, 2

This translates: to Pluck the Psaltery to Carry Away the Dead

Latin: deveho Carry away for cremation. B. Pass. in middle sense, to go away, to go down, descend

In Amos the MARZEAH with singing and instrumental music as the WINESKIN religion was "A Feast WITH and FOR dead ancestors" meaning the demons.

Sall. C. 25, 2 Sallust, Consipiracy of Catiline 2

Even in agriculture, in navigation, and in architecture, whatever man performs owns the dominion of intellect. Yet many human beings, resigned to sensuality and indolence, uninstructed [p. 7] and unimproved, have passed through life like travelers in a strange country;12 to whom, certainly, contrary to the intention of nature, the body was a gratification, and the mind a burden. Of these I hold the life and death in equal estimation;13 for silence is maintained concerning both.


Note: 11 Even in agriculture, etc.] Quæ homines arant, navigant, ædificant, virtuti omnia parent. Literally, what men plow, sail, etc. Sallust's meaning is, that agriculture, navigation, and architecture, though they may seem to be effected by mere bodily exertion, are as much the result of MENTAL power us the highest of human pursuits.

ædificant And (eccl.) in a religious sense, to build up, instruct, edify.


13 Of these I hold the life and death in equal estimation] Eorum ego vitàm mortemque juxta æstimo. I count them of the same value dead as alive, for they are honored in the one state as much as in the other. "Those who, are devoted to the gratification of their appetites," as Sallust says, "let us regard as INFERIOR animals, not as men; and some, indeed, NOT as living, but as DEAD animals." Seneca, Ep. lx.

It is a fact that the CAINITES or KENITES who plagued the temple-state built at a JEBUSITE HIGH PLACE were considered a SEPARATE SPECIES: sons of the Devil as "Cain was OF that Wicked one" because Satan WHOLLY SEDUCED Eve as one seduces a bride before the husband gets to her. CAIN is derived for A MUSICAL NOTE. The NACHASH or serpent in the garden was not a snake but a MUSICAL ENCHANTER.

(but in Cic. Cat. 2, 10, 23 the correct read. is saltare et cantare;

Cat. 2, 10, 23 SECOND ORATION OF M. T. CICERO AGAINST LUCIUS CATILINA.

[22] There is a fifth class, of parricides, assassins, in short of all infamous characters, whom I do not wish to recall from Catiline, and indeed they cannot be separated from him. Let them perish in their wicked war, since they are so numerous that a prison cannot contain them.


Judas Iscariot is Judas Sicarri: si-ca-rius , The Judas Bag was for carrying the mouth pieces of wind instruments. Psalms 44 prophesied that Judas would try to TRIUMPH OVER Jesus which meand "play instrumenta and make a joyful noise before the Lord."


There is a last class, last not only in number but in the sort of men and in their way of life; the especial body-guard of Catiline, of his levying; yes, the friends of his embraces and of his bosom; whom you see with carefully combed hair, glossy, beardless, or with well-trimmed beards; with tunics with sleeves, or reaching to the ankles; clothed with veils, not with robes; all the industry of whose life, all the labour of whose watchfulness, is expended in suppers lasting till daybreak.

[23] In these bands are all the gamblers, all the adulterers, all the unclean and shameless citizens. These boys, so witty and delicate, have learnt not only to love and to be loved, not only to sing and to dance, but also to brandish daggers and to administer poisons; [Sorcerers or Pharmakea in Revelation who were the musical performers in Rev. 18] and unless they are driven out, unless they die, even should Catiline die, I warn you that the school of Catiline would exist in the republic. But what do those wretches want? Are they going to take their wives with them to the camp? how can they do without them, especially in these nights? and how will they endure the Apennines, and these frosts, and this snow? unless they think that they will bear the winter more easily because they have been in the habit of dancing naked at their feasts. O war much to be dreaded, when Catiline is going to have his bodyguard of prostitutes!

Delicate de-lica-tus ,

B. Transf., soft, tender, delicate (poet. and in post-Aug. prose): CAPELLA [She Goat], Cat. 20, 10


flexio, o-nis, f. [flecto] ,
I. a bending, swaying, turning; a bend, turn, curve B. In partic., of the voice, a modulation, inflection, change:


quosdam e gratissimis delicatorum, i. e. of the paramours, paidikôn

The PAIDIKON piped hoping to get Jesus to SING and DANCE the dance of the NEW WINESKIN god

docta psallere Chia, Hor. C. 4, 13, 7 ;

Docta II. In partic.: fabulam, like the Gr. didaskein, qs. to teach a play to the actors, to rehearse; hence, to produce, exhibit on the stage B. In Plaut. and Ter., knowing, cunning, shrewd, subtle 2. Cunningly, shrewdly, cleverly: id. Bacch. 4, 4, 43:

id. Bacch. 4, 4, 43 Plautus, Bacchides So cleverly have I gulled my elder master this day, that he has been made a fool of. The crafty old blade, by my crafty tricks, have I compelled and constrained to believe me in everything. Then, for the son of the old gentleman, my master here in love, together with whom I drink, with whom I eat and go a-courting, I have procured regal and golden treasures, that he may take from thence at home, and not go seeking abroad.

Horatius Flaccus, Odes 13:

The gods have heard, the gods have heard my prayer;
Yes, Lyce! you are growing old, and still
You struggle to look fair;
You drink, and dance, and trill

Your songs to youthful Love, in accents weak
With wine, and age, and passion. Youthful Love!
He dwells in Chia's cheek,
And hears her harp-strings move.

Of Lyce, spared to raven's length of days,
That youth may see, with laughter and disgust,
A fire-brand, once ablaze,
Now smouldering in grey dust.

Of singing to the cithara: Calliope princeps sapienti psallerat ore

in caelo cantatur et psallitur

canto I. Neutr., to produce melodious sounds (by the voice or an instrument), to sound, sing, play (class. in prose and poetry ad manum histrioni, in comedy, to sing and play while the actor accompanies the song with gestures or dancing, to preach to deaf ears

2. Of the singing pronunciation of an orator, to declaim in a singing tone, to sing, drawl: si cantas, male cantas, si legis, cantas, to recite, declaim:

C. Hence, because the oracles were of old uttered in verse, of any mysterious, prophetic, or warning utterance, to predict, warn, point out, indicate, make known, say

III. In the lang. of religion, as v. n. or a., to use enchantments, charms, incantations, to enchant, to charm,

B. To call forth, produce by charms:

OR YOU ARE LEFT WITH THE ONLY STRAIGHT USE OF THE WORD.

II. In particular, in ecclesiastical Latin, to sing the Psalms of David, Hier. Ep. 107, 10; Aug. in Psa. 46; 65; Vulg. 1 Cor. 14, 15

THERE IS NO EXCEPTION TO THE ABSOLUTE RULE: Psallo in the EXTERNAL sense ALWAYS points to warfare or to PERVERTS who were often "bundled" in pairs as Warriors or Assassins.

I will post the GREEK definition which makes the MARK of the BEAST even better. Why do you suppose all of those trained in the Greek originals NEVER saw RELIGIOUS MUSIC as anything other than the TRAFFICKING of prostitutes or sodomites. I suspect they ALSO knew the meaning of EKKLESIA as a school of the Bible long before Thomas Campbell defined the church just like Paul whose word PLEASE Or PLEASURE absolutely OUTLAWS this form of virtual perversion which always ended in the Wimber or Vineyard (aka New Wineskins) next to the last ACT of worship as having a CLIMAX WITH THE SPIRIT. And wouldn't you know it--just before the LAST ACT of GIVING OF MEANS which is also PERVERSION of Scripture and CHURCH.

Kenny, you have been spending way too much time with the "Flute Girls," It seems ever post you have written in the past two weeks pertains to "seduction." This train of thought you have come up with has become redundant. You have become a product of your imagination, a sour spirit has taken control of your psychic. You have let the verb "psallo" "pluck" your heart strings to the dance of the "Fruit Loops."

You really need to stay in touch with yourself Keneth. You are beginning to sound like Jimmy Swaggart: "The Mark of the Beast." In "Greek" no less....Whoa...old 666 in Greek by Kenny the Prophet..Jimmy can't top that...Can't wait!
Jack Mann

Paul used the word SPEAK and the meaning is "in a quiet whisper or conversational tone." The Latin SERMO means the same thing.

Now, why have YOU picked the FIRST definition when EVERYONE is gonna know that "musicating" in the holy places was the Abomination of Desolation?

I think that MUSICATING says more about MUSICATING religion and the MUSICATORS than they MIGHT want their paymasters-slaves to KNOW. If they CATCH ON there goes the saddle off the widow's back. That's just a-gonna tear some sore places if the widow gets to spend their pittance on medicine.

Try not to reach the climax of the TRUE STORY yet because the GREEK Psallo and a dozen twin sisters is going to demand a huge gathering as Anti Christ University to burn those Phduhs stolen off the backs of still-bleeding lambs.

Psallo is a Greek word.

Rick

Revello, velli, vulsum or volsum, 3, v. a., to pluck or pull away, to pull or tear out, to tear off or away .

I. Lit. be torn away, remove,

II. Trop., to tear away, send away injurias honorificis verbis,

Signum: A sign, signal; a watchword, password, given by a wind-instrument.

Blituri, to, twang of a harp-string: hence of a meaningless sound,

klang-ê, : ( [klazô] ):--any sharp sound, e.g. twang of the bow scream of birds, esp. cranes,

to which are compared confused cries of a throng,
grunting of swine,
howling of wolves and lions, h.Hom.14.4, cf. 27.8;
hissing of serpents,
baying of dogs, X.C yn.4.5, etc.; [the homosexual Cynics]
also, of musical instruments, of Cassandra's prophecies,
of the scream of the Harpies

Klazô of dogs, bark,

Pan and his pipes, as of arrows in the quiver, clash, rattle, phobon ring forth terror,

of the musician, kitharai, of Pan on his pipes, [Phobus name of Apollo or Apollyon; Pan is the BEAST with his Pan Pipes to create PANic]

klazeis melisma luras (of the tettix) [The Locusts or Muses of Apollyon]

epiNIKIA klazôn sounding loudly the song of victory in honour of Zeus

This is the meaning of the NIKE LAITY or victory of the clergy over the "paying audience." The HORNS of the BEAST are musical.

toxeuô

I. to shoot with the bow, to aim, to use the bow, having shot too high, of the sOPHISts whare the OPIS or serpents in Revelation

II. c. acc. to shoot or hit with an arrow, struck by an arrow,

2. to shoot from a bow: METAPHOR to discharge, send forth, humnous, hath shot these arrows in vain

P. Vergilius Maro, Aeneid
She said, and from her quiver chose with speed
The winged shaft, predestin'd for the deed;
Then to the stubborn yew her strength applied,
Till the far distant horns approach'd on either side.
The bowstring touch'd her breast, so strong she drew;
Whizzing in air the fatal arrow flew.

At once the twanging bow and sounding dart
The traitor heard, and felt the point within his heart.
Him, beating with his heels in pangs of death,
His flying friends to foreign fields bequeath.

The conqu'ring damsel, with expanded wings,
The welcome message to her mistress brings.

I SUGGEST THAT THIS IS A NEW ACT OF WORSHIP FOR "WORSHIP MINISTERS" CLAIMING TO BE THE MEDIATOR WITH GOD. Perhaps, we could offer a PhDuh in Ministry of Heel Beating.

My prayer for Mr. Sublett is that one day he will be able to string 2 coherent sentences together, or maybe just finish one sentence that is not nonsense.

Rick

Mr. Cruz,

I apologize if my comments in passing do not measure up to the scholoarly standards of this website. I did not even know that this was a refereed journal. The fact is, whenever I have used history or Scripture, and I have on occasion done so, it has largely been ignored. I think we all know why.

I made the comment about psallo being Greek because Mr. Sublett was going into great detail about the Latin definition of a Greek word. An absurd thing to do, but his right, nonetheless. When one reads his "detailed research" one discovers that Mr. Sublett has not done his research as you claim. He would be [… … … …]

I find it very interesting that he has to have you come to his defense when I have invited him on several occasions to enter into a discussion. He's [… … … …] but is permitted to do this without any admonition from you about his put-downs or rude language.

It makes most normal people wonder.

Why are you protecting him?

Is it just because he's [… … … …]?

Did he save your life once?

How about a little fairness?

I dare you to publish this.

Rick

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Rick,

Please understand. We are trying our best to be objective. How? By being, e.g., in the place of someone to whom you have ascribed all those unnecessary remarks and insults. In fact, I found it necessary to delete more of the same from your response above. In addition, Ken does not need my defense. But I get the idea when I’m being personally attacked.

If you have posted using history and scripture somewhere else without being responded to, I think you should consider it a good sign—perhaps there’s nothing to disagree with you about.

I have reviewed this new thread which has only a few messages so far. Do you have any segments in the initial post that you disagree with? Or, perhaps, you disagree with the post in its entirety?

Donnie

seems ken is [… … …]

HMMMM!!!!

++++++++++++++++++++++
Kent,

It is on record that you attempted to post at the time indicated above today.

Donnie

What is going on here? This is easily the most bizzare web site I've ever visited.....bar none.

Ken is completely incoherent and I continue to believe he has enormous sexual hang ups. ("Homosexual rituals...seduce usually young boys...glossy beardless or with well-trimmed beards...perverts bundled in pairs as warriors or assassins). Yikes!!! where's the exit.....FAST!

Is anyone posting on this web site institutionalized?

Totally unhinged!

Donnie.....I am actually amazed how you defend Ken. You do seem to be somewhat rational.....but.....???

Of course you will not allow this to be posted but I'm happy enough to know you've read it.

fuck you asshole for editing my post. Ken is a fucked up friut cake and should be edited as well if you are going to edit me. again, fuck you and the horse you rode in on

++++++++++++++++
I apologize for posting this one ... unedited. I realize that it doesn't belong here. Hoping for your understanding. Donnie

Mr. Cruz,

If you post this unedited I will be truly surprised.

I cannot believe how arbitrarily you edited my previous post, then allowed Kent's post to go unedited. I'm sure that was a mistake.

Some of what you edited was insulting to Mr. Sublett. I wonder why you do not edit his insulting remarks?

Some of what you edited was not insulting, but simple sincere questioning having to do with the nature of Mr. Sublett's comments about certain topics.

Then you draw a bizarre conclusion-that you have been personally attacked by me.

I'd like some evidence of that. You have not been personally attacked. I believe you are a sub-standard moderator, less than objective in your duties, but I never questioned your character or integrity.

Rick

==============================
MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR

Rick;

It appears that you are making another faulty assumption.

You are assuming there is only one moderator here.

I suggest that you stop dealing with personalities
and stick with the facts.

All of the moderators here have their own little quirks.

Mine is using the delete key to save time.

Today, I had a little time.

Anonymous Moderator,

I suggest you ..........................

======================================
From The Moderator

Sorry; I'm short on time.

Post deleted.

I'm not writing to post this. I am truly upset at the way my post was edited and would like to know why you have chosen to treat me this way. I have been very careful with my language.

Also, if you did not want to post my True Sory here, then move it to the parables thread. A little fairness is all I ask. If you want me to disconinue posting here, just say so, but don't misrepresent me.

Rick

Rick,

I’d like the readers to be assured that your post was not edited due to “expletives deleted.” You’re articulate. The only problem is that while you articulate your opinions well when you express them—which is just fine—you do your personal attacks just as well. No, of course, you do not use vile language in your attacks.

I have reviewed what Ken has posted so far, and he has not mentioned your name. I think it’s only fair when you are willing to present your rebuttal or arguments. You didn’t do that in your response to my original post. Instead, you added more personal attacks—I referred to these as “more of the same” and were, thus, removed.

Kent’s post with the “expletives” was not a mistake on my part. His mistake was that he submitted a post with the “expletives” for readers to know more about his behavior.

It’s best to abide by some common-sense website courtesy that we all should stop dealing with personalities. You’re way much more intelligent than that—I know. Instead, deal with the subject matter being discussed or none of it.

Donnie

Mr. Cruz,

Mr. Sublett has, in fact, made personal attacks against me before. References to being "immature" and not being "out of short pants" and needing a "note from my mother" are all personal. But, what can I say. He even started a thread called "Ricky and LeBon" that was very personal.

All I'm asking for is consistency.

Rick

Psal-mos , ho,

A. twitching or twanging with the FINGERS,

Because the word is derived from twanging the BOW, the word PSALLO is INCLUSIVE. It includes ONLY pulling WITH THE FINGERS and suddenly letting go. It is EXCLUSIVE it means NOT WITH A PLECTRUM or guitar pick. You CANNOT use the word of any musical instrument which is NOT twanged with the fingers: no piano, organ, drums, cymbals or guitat picks. A guitarIST is identified as a PARASITE.

FIRST way the word is used

A. psalmoi toxôn E.Ion173 (lyr.);

Examples ONE in the literature

E.Ion173 Euripides, Ion speaking of Apollo or Abaddon or Apollyon's "seeker center" where the muses (locusts) were his musical worship team. It was 100% commercial knowing that you could "blow the flute and cause the fat heads and simpletons to give up their food money.

But I will cease from labor [145] with the laurel branch and I wil hurl from golden vases Gaia's fountain, which Castalia's eddies pour out, casting out the moist drops, [150] since I am chaste. May I never cease to serve Phoebus in this manner; or, if I do, may it be with good fortune. Ah, ah! Already the birds of Parnassus have left their nests, [155] and come here. I forbid you to approach the walls and the golden house. I will reach you with my bow, herald of Zeus, though you conquer [160] with your beak the strength of all other birds. Here comes another, a swan, to the rim of the temple. Move your crimson foot elsewhere! Phoebus' [Abaddon in Revelation] lyre, that sings with you, [165] would not protect you from my bow. Alter your wings' course; go to the Delian lake; if you do not obey, you will steep your lovely melody in blood. [170] Ah, ah! what is this new bird that approaches; you will not place under the cornice a straw-built nest for your children, will you? My singing bow will keep you off. Will you not obey? [175] Go away and bring up your offspring by the eddies of Alpheus, or go to the Isthmian grove, so that the offerings, and the temple of Phoebus, are not harmed. . . . and yet I am ashamed to kill you, [180] for to mortals you bear the messages of the gods; but I will be subject to Phoebus [Apollo] in my appointed tasks, and I will never cease my service to those who nourish me.


Lovely Melody is:

kalli-phthongos , on, A. beautiful-sounding, ôidai E.Ion169 (lyr.); histoi Id.IT222 (lyr.).

Euripides, Iphigenia in Tauris In the horse-drawn chariot, [215] they set me as a bride on the sands of Aulis, oh woe, a wretched bride for the son of the Nereid, alas! But now, as a stranger I live in an unfertile home on this sea that is hostile to strangers, [220] without marriage, or children, or city, or friends, not raising hymns to Hera at Argos, nor embroidering with my shuttle, in the singing loom, the likeness of Athenian Pallas and the Titans; but [225] . . . a bloody fate, not to be hymned by the lyre, of strangers who wail a piteous cry and weep piteous tears. And now I must forget these things, [230] and lament my brother, killed in Argos, whom I left at the breast, still a baby, still an infant, still a young child in his mother's arms and at her breast, [235] the holder of the scepter in Argos, Orestes.

B. toxêrei psalmôi [toxeusas] Id.HF1064 (lyr.).

Examples TWO in the literature

HF1064 Euripides, Heracle

Amphitryon
Yes, he is sleeping, a deadly sleepless sleep, having slain wife and children with the arrows of his twanging bow. [ psalmôi [toxeusas]]

Because the "panic musicians" (Numbers 10) were not always at war, the twitching and twanging is found most often of PLUCKING a string of a musical instrument.

NO WONDER they call it "The Worship Wars." Music in the EKKLESIA or school of the Bible can have NO OTHER MEANING but that Lucifer is MAKING WAR by "bleeding off worship" for her AGENTS who claim to be MEDIATORS.

SECOND way the word is used.

II. mostly of musical strings, pêktidôn psalmois krekon humnon Telest.5 , cf. Diog.Trag.1.9, Aret.CA1.1.

pêktis , A. stringed instrument used by the Lydians, played with finger (not plêktron),
2. shepherd's pipe, Pan's pipes,
3. cage or net for catching birds,
II. carvingknife,

krekô ,
2. strike a stringed instrument with the plectron, magadin Diog.Ath.1.10 ; barbita D.H.7.72 : generally, play on any instrument, aulon
3. of any SHARP,

2. the sound of the cithara or harp, Pi.Fr.125, cf. Phryn.Trag.11; psalmos d' alalazei A.Fr.57.7 (anap.); there were contests in to psallein, Michel898.10(Chios, ii B. C.), 913.6(Teos, ii B. C.).

alal-azô (formed from the cry alalai): --raise the war-cry shout the shout of victory, nikên alalazein

[this is the NIKE or CLERGY who RULES OVER the laity = nicolatians and they always USED music]

This is the message of Jesus to those "prophesiers" who made music and said LORD, LORD or Al, Al: Jesus says of you: "GOD DOESN'T EVEN KNOW YUR NAME!

2. generally, cry, shout aloud, Pi.l.c., E.El.855; esp. in orgiastic rites, A.Fr.57; of Bacchus and Bacchae, E.Ba.593 (in Med.), 1133, etc.; ôloluxan hai gunaikes, êlalaxan de hoi andres Hld.3.5 .


E.El.855 Euripides, Electra They, when they heard his words, held back their spears, and he was recognized by an old man, who had been long in the household. Immediately they crowned your brother with a wreath, and shouted with joy. [855] And he comes bringing a head to show you, not that of the Gorgon, but of the one you hate, Aegisthus; his death today has paid in blood a bitter debt of blood.

1133 Euripides, Bacchae Messenger
His mother, as priestess, began the slaughter, [1115] and fell upon him. He threw the headband from his head so that the wretched Agave might recognize and not kill him. Touching her cheek, he said: "It is I, mother, your son, Pentheus, whom you bore in the house of Echion. [1120] Pity me, mother, and do not kill me, your child, for my sins."

But she, foaming at the mouth and twisting her eyes all about, not thinking as she ought, was possessed by Bacchus, and he did not persuade her. [1125] Seizing his left arm at the elbow and propping her foot against the unfortunate man's side, she tore out his shoulder, not by her own strength, but the god gave facility to her hands.

She is coming inside these walls, preening herself [1145] on the ill-fated prey, calling Bacchus her fellow hunter, her accomplice in the chase, the glorious victor--in whose service she wins a triumph of tears.


II. rarely also of other sounds than the voice, sound loudly, psalmos d' alalazei A.Fr.57 ; kumbalon alalazon 1 Ep.Cor.13.1


1 Cor 13:1 THOUGH I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

The Sounding Brass has the same meaning as the Familiar Spirit of the Witch of Endor: it was a hollow wineskin. It has the same basic meaning of the NEBEL meaning VILE and a LIFELESS INSTRUMENT.

Alalazo (g214) al-al-ad'-zo; from alale, (a shout, "halloo"); to vociferate, i.e. (by impl.) to wail; fig. to clang: - tinkle, wail

Mk.5:38 And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly.

Of course, Jesus CAST THEM OUT more or less violently as one eject dung.

THIRD way the word is used of Psalms EXAMPLED by Jesus COMMANDED by Paul PRACTICED by all early churches not RETURNING TO BABYLON.

3. later,

A. song sung to the harp, [Psalmus does not INCLUDE the harp unless NAMED]

B. psalm, LXX 2 Ki.23.1, XXIII. Now these are the last words of David. David the son of Jesse says, The man who was raised on high says, The anointed of the God of Jacob, The sweet psalmist of Israel: [2] The Spirit of Yahweh spoke by me, His word was on my tongue

D. al., Ep.Eph.5.19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

D. biblos psalmôn Ev.Luc.20.42 . And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

You can see again that you have TWO CHOICES.

The PROPHECY of the BABYLON WHORE religionism in Revelation has Apollo (Apollyon, Abaddon) unleashing the LOCUSTS who in John's symbolism were the MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM of Apollo or SATAN, the "having fallen STAR."

If you find that you have been INVADED by the MUSES you know that as in all ancient paganism they are PROUD to perform as the HAREM OF THE GODS. If you find yourself ooohing, aahing, doing the voodoo beat, clapping and find your body MOVING (meaning of harmony--males moving together) they they have HIJACKED your silly body to have virtual or maybe REAL sex and perverted sex with SATAN in person who is LUCIFER who is ZOE.

All "churchy" music is derived from VOODOO and the witchcraft seen at Cane Ridge among the Stoneites who adopted the SHOUTING METHODISTS as an ACT OF WORSHIP. Wimber at Vineyard makes no bones about it: the new style PRAISE MUSIC is to force you to have a SEXUAL CLIMATIC experience with the spirit--just before GIVING OF SUBSTANCE. But, in Apollo's Seeker Center MARKED by a theater and GYMNASIUM they collected the money FIRST before they chanted you a lying prophecy.

Boy, the wheels have fallen off this thread. Everyone's wound up pretty tight, so I'll be careful how I state this so I won't be accused of "attacking" anybody.

Donnie, this is not an attack I promise. It is a serious question. How can you support Ken and consider him a scholar or even remotely intelligent when he posts things like this:

"It is a fact that the CAINITES or KENITES who plagued the temple-state built at a JEBUSITE HIGH PLACE were considered a SEPARATE SPECIES: sons of the Devil as "Cain was OF that Wicked one" because Satan WHOLLY SEDUCED Eve as one seduces a bride before the husband gets to her. CAIN is derived for A MUSICAL NOTE. The NACHASH or serpent in the garden was not a snake but a MUSICAL ENCHANTER."

That is just one of the latest of literally hundreds of staements Ken has made that are absolutely false. Do you know each other and are you standing by your friend?, because I get that. It's honorable. If not, if he's just a guy who posts here that you have never met, I'm blown away that you could think most of his postings are coherent and truthful.

You told Rick that Sublett has done his research. He may have read and maybe even researched a lot of this stuff, (surely no one could make all that up on their own)- but presenting it as fact doesn't make it true. Also, just because you don't understand what he's saying, doesn't make him smart.

Amazed,

I can tell when it’s researched or when it’s some explanation, can you not? I hope you can, too. It’s any writer’s prerogative to present either one. It’s also the reader’s choice to accept something as factual or to reject it. So, what’s the problem?

If I think that Ken is a scholar and that I benefit much from his posts, I certainly cannot speak for you. If you feel that his viewpoints are weak or false, then, why not counter them with what you consider strong arguments and truthful?

Donnie

Kent, you can be very funny at times, and I appreciate a lot of what you have to say, but Brother, you have got to tone your language down. That F-word filled posting possibly crossed the line. A little.

I have no idea how it got on here un-edited, (makes me wonder what Rick said that DID get edited) but these guys are more apt to listen when they're not being cussed out. Just a thought.

Amazed,

I was afraid that would happen. I did not use any vulgar or obscene language. The moderator chose to edit my post so it looked as if I did. I wish he would put the rest of it up here. There is no way to combat those kind of unfair tactics.

I appeal again, as a Christian brother to clear my name of suspicion. I willingly admit to attacks and offenses that I commit. It is beneath Christian behavior to implicate somebody falsely.

Moderator, please do right.

Rick

Mr. Cruz,

I owe you an apology. You are indeed a much more proficient moderator than I gave you credit for. After suffering at the hands of a moderator with far fewer scruples than you I welcome your presence, again.

I have a request: Would it be possible to have the post I wrote titled "A True Story" moved to the parables thread? I fel that it illustrates the problems that I and others who feel as I do have in getting our opinions across on this website.

I leave you with,

My most humble thanks

Rick

Rick: "I have a request: Would it be possible to have the post I wrote titled 'A True Story' moved to the parables thread? I fel [sic] that it illustrates the problems that I and others who feel as I do have in getting our opinions across on this website."

Dr. Crump: Placing a "true story" in a parables thread would be incongruous. A parable is defined as a fictitious story that presents a lesson, moral, or religious principle. Rick only wants to complain about why his views are not accepted here. So if Rick wants his "true story" published on this site, I suggest that he start a new thread for true stories, unless his "true story" is laced with vicious, personal attacks against those who regularly post here. Remember, I once withdrew a parable and apologized for it because I had written it to be hurtful, something unbecoming to a Christian.

Parable, from the Greek PARABOLE, meaning a placing beside; a comparison.

A parable does not necessarily have to be fictitious. All it has to do is reveal a truth by way of making a comparison in a story, much like an allegory or a similitude. (I did teach college English at one time, even if my typing skills may not indicate it.) Therefore, placing a true story on a parables thread would not be incongruous.

I remember the incident of which you speak and I am a little puzzled as to why you think my true story would be, "laced with vicious, personal attacks against those who regularly post here."

You also said, "Rick only wants to complain about why his views are not accepted here." What I wrote was, "it illustrates the problems that I and others who feel as I do have in getting our opinions across on this website."

I really don't care if my views are accepted, but it's nice of you to prejudge something that you have not read but not comprehending something that I have already written.

Why do you get so worked up when somebody wants to express an opinion?

I do not consider you my enemy, and I thought you referred to me as a friend.

Rick

Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary defines "parable" as:

"a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle. Synonym see Allegory."

Allegory--"1a: the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human conduct or experience. b: an instance of such expression. 2: a symbolic representation : Emblem."

A parable expresses perceived truths by fictional or symbolic means. A non-fictional account or non-fictional story is not a parable. Parables are usually short, but it is not mandatory that they be so. Some of Jesus' parables were rather lengthy.

Rick should find a medium for his "true story" other than the "Parables" thread. The moderators may elect to put it there, but it would still not be a "parable" in the strictest sense of the term. The "Parables" thread should contain true parables.

Rick: "it illustrates the problems that I and others who feel as I do have in getting our opinions across on this website."

"I really don't care if my views are accepted, but it's nice of you to prejudge something that you have not read but not comprehending something that I have already written."

"Why do you get so worked up when somebody wants to express an opinion?"

Dr. Crump: Rick knows that his views are not accepted on this web site, even though he has the right to express them (without the personal attacks). Many (but not all) of Rick's posts have been peppered with taunts and jeers against Ken Sublett, because Rick cannot fathom Ken's writings. Are we to believe that it's the taunts, jeers, and personal attacks, his so-called "opinions," with which Rick is experiencing trouble getting across on this site? No wonder Rick is miffed, because the moderators recently edited some of his posts that contained, not vile language, but the personal attacks, such as those against Ken Sublett.

Anyone can express an opinion here in the appropriate thread and with the proper attitude. As I said earlier, if Rick has a "true story" (not a fictitious story) to tell and can do it without making personal attacks, then by all means he should post it in another thread, NOT in a thread reserved for parables. Is there some reason why Rick feels that his "true story" MUST go in a thread reserved for parables, which are fictional stories? Surely Rick's motive is not merely to sabotage the parables thread. No, that can't be it--can it?

As I said earlier, let Rick post his "true story" (without personal attacks) in a thread that's more appropriate for nonfiction. Nobody's holding Rick back in that regard.

It ain't worth the effort. I can't believe we are parsing words such as "parable." I understand what Webster's says, but I happen to believe that a concept such as a parable can have a broader meaning. It really is nothing to get all excited about. The point is I believe the story aptly illustrates something that would help others understand how I feel I am being treated on this website.

As far as what you are to belileve, that's entirely up to you. You don't know for sure what I have written when it has been edited.

Yes, I have been rough on Mr. Sublett, I admit it. I believe he has been pretty rough, also. That's just an opinion, but I am not alone in having that opinion. To say that I cannot fathom what he writes is fairly accurate.

Rick

But we haven't forgotten that Rick is anxious to post his "True Story" about the heartaches and struggles of getting his opinions across on this web site (minus the personal attacks, of course). Very well, we are waiting for it. Should make for some interesting reading--in the appropriate thread. However, if Rick doesn't post the story, then we can only conclude that he either decided to "forget it, it wasn't worth the effort" (a wise decision), or that the story was indeed laced with more personal attacks, which got it bumped.

Rick: "I can't believe we are parsing words such as 'parable.' I understand what Webster's says, but I happen to believe that a concept such as a parable can have a broader meaning."

Dr. Crump: It's absolutely amazing that someone would take a dictionary definition, which also provides several synonyms or alternative but similar meanings to a word, and decide that he'll "broaden" the definition even further to suit his own preferences. That person cannot accept what is written therein.

The whole point of this absurdity is to show that if a person decides to "broaden" the accepted definition of a single dictionary word to suit his own preferences, then what's to stop him from doing the very same thing with Scripture, especially regarding very sensitive subjects therein? What's to stop him from modifying, twisting, and "broadening" Scripture until he can justify just about anything according to his own mind, regardless of what is originally written in Scripture?

For example, here are some biblical concepts which people often twist around to suit their preferences:

"Sing and make melody in the heart to the Lord" becomes "Sing and make melody with instruments."

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" becomes "He that believeth shall be saved, and baptism is nice, but it's really not necessary."

"If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments" becomes "Only love, not what we believe or do, is our greatest witness to the world."

"Mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them" becomes "It would ruin people's self-esteem and make us look 'judgmental' if we called them on the carpet about their obviously false doctrine."

"If any man preach a gospel other than that of Christ, let him be accursed" becomes "People have a right to push any doctrine and belief they choose in the Church, because they have free speech."

"The liberty of Christ has made us free [referring to Christ freeing us from the Law of Moses]" becomes "We can believe and do as we please."

"Elders must be the husband of one wife" becomes "Elders must be the wife of one husband, because society says that it's unfair, politically incorrect, and discrimination to ban women as elders (or deacons) of the Church."

Twisting, rearranging, modifying, adding, deleting, second-guessing, and broadening the Scriptures, all because people cannot accept what is written therein.

It is indeed absolutely amazing. If people are capable of modifying a little word in the dictionary to suit their preferences, they are just as capable of doing the same with Scripture, no matter how vehemently they deny it. And it's already being done, has been done, and will continue to be done.

Dr. Crump,

We can play dueling definitions all day long.

dictionary.com
1. parable n 1: a short moral story

2. parable (Gr. parabole), a placing beside; a comparison; a similitude.


yourdictionary.com:
par·a·ble n. A simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
parable. ...A simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson. Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin parabola, from Greek parabol, from paraballein, to compare...

Cambridge Dictionaries Online
parable noun a short simple story which teaches or explains an idea, especially a moral or religious idea

Shall I go on?

Rick

Dr. Crump,

I have to say I don't understand your attitude. You can draw all the conclusions you want and still be wrong. I would like to have my story posted. It contains no persoanl attacks, but it is up to the moderators to decide whether or not to post something. If you don't believe me, ask the moderator.

You what happens when you assume something.

Again, for clarification I don't have any problem with getting my opinions across. The problem is what I believe about how I am being treated. Don't get me wrong. I don't expect fairness, at least not any more. I just want you and others to try to understand what it looks like from here. If that offends you, I'm sorry.

I do not have a copy of the story I tried to post a few days ago. If the moderator does not have it either, then I will gladly write it again.

Rick

If Rick honestly believes that he is not being treated fairly here, no one is holding Rick hostage to stay here. Rick now claims that he has no problem getting his opinions across, so I see no point in his writing a "true story," which Rick claimed earlier would reveal the alleged problems with getting his opinions across.

I refresh Rick's mind about getting his opinions across:

"I have a request: Would it be possible to have the post I wrote titled 'A True Story' moved to the parables thread? I fel [sic] that it illustrates the problems that I and others who feel as I do have in getting our opinions across on this website."

First Rick said he had problems getting his opinions across and wanted to publish a "true story" about those problems. Now he says he doesn't have problems getting his opinions across, and that his beef is his perception of being treated unfairly.

Sorry, but I just don't think Rick knows (or has ever known) what he's talking about.

Dr. Crump,

You have made a valid point and I admit that I did contradict myself. I apologize for the error.

I don't have any trouble expression my opinions. The problem is I do not understand why they are often misinterpreted. I hope that the reason for this is not intentional distortion by my detractors. I guess it is a problem of perception. The only reason for posting my story/parable was to help those who do not agree with me to see from my side. Not so they would agree with me, that's not going to happen, but so that they do not misinterpret me so much.

You wrote, "First Rick said he had problems getting his opinions across and wanted to publish a "true story" about those problems. Now he says he doesn't have problems getting his opinions across, and that his beef is his perception of being treated unfairly."

I have no beef about being treated unfairly. I learned that lesson early on, and I expect it. You can read my comment in a previous post regarding that. My story is also not about my problems. It's about how people of conviction and standards react when placed in an unfair situation.

Now, if you want me to leave, just say so. Nothing would probably make you happier. As far as your comment that, "I just don't think Rick knows (or has ever known) what he's talking about." You are entitled your opinion.

I congratulate you for catching the mistake. Find another place where I have contradicted myself and I will apologize again.

Rick

Why would anyone be tempted to IMITATE JERUSALEM or SODOM meaning the MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai?

Someone may have cheated you if you procured a degree without knowing Ezekiel 16 and the rest of the story PROOF TEXTED to justify CANAANITES in the house of the Lord. After Israel rose up to PLAY in the same musical idolatry which caused the FALL and Mount Sinai and to which God ABANDONED them, the people died of hunger and thirst for the WORD of God which none of the priestling-hirelings had a clue about:

"You Israelites are just like the Ethiopians in my sight," says the Lord. "Certainly I brought Israel up from the land of Egypt, but I also brought the Philistines from Caphtor and the Arameans from Kir. Amos 9:7

Look, the sovereign Lord is watching the sinful nation, and I will destroy it from the face of the earth. But I will not completely destroy the family of Jacob," says the Lord. Amos 9:8

"For look, I am giving a command and I will shake the family of Israel together with all the nations. It will resemble a sieve being shaken, when not even a pebble falls to the ground. Amos 9:9

All the sinners among my people will die by the sword, the ones who say, 'Disaster will not come near, it will not confront us.' Amos 9:10

It is a fact that Sodom was more evil than others and may represent the "land of the slime pits" out of which Babylonian and Canaanite homosexuality dominated, God uses Sodom AS an example. In Amos 4 he equates Israel to Sodom and in chapters 5 and 6 implicates MUSICAL FESTIVALS as the cause of their lostness:

I have overthrown some of you, AS God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord. Am.4:11

I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah. Je.23:14

Therefore as I live, saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah, even the breeding of nettles, and saltpits, and a perpetual desolation: the residue of my people shall spoil them, and the remnant of my people shall possess them. Zep.2:9

Jude tells us about how God will come with ten thousands of His Saints: The Book of Enoch identifies the SINNERS as those who were seduced by Satan into musical idolatry. This was a FALL from which people cannot because they will not ever recover:

Jude 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude 11 Woe unto them for they have gone in the WAY of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Jude 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jude 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering STARS, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,


When God gave the Book of the Covenant, Exodus reads:

And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. Exodus 19:18

However, as a result of the musical idolatry--rising up to play--God gave them the Book of the Law to protect the lawless. After punishment, God ordained the Levites to stand between the people and the Tabernacle as the symbol of His presence. All but the Levites and Priests were now strangers and the clergy must bear the burden for the people. Therefore, in Deuteronomy, the second law or that "in addition to the Covenant":

And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. Deut.33:1

And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery (burning-goad) law for them. Deut 33:2

Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words. Deut 33:3


Jude 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jude 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having mens persons in admiration because of advantage.

Jude 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jude 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

In the Book of Revelation--before John spells the final DOOM of the musical harlot--he clearly identified Jerusalem with SODOM and Egypt.

Re.11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Ga.4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Jerusalem was a JEBUSITE HIGH PLACE-- Bible 101aaa. It is "a city set on seven hills" and is called "dueling mountains." When God granted David an ALTERNATIVE altar in Jerusalem it was because the nation was on its way into captivity and death. David was too FEARFUL of God to return to Gibeon an Stephen says that God granted this pagan place called Sodom as a concession.

Ken, you stated: "Stephen says that God granted this pagan place called Sodom as a concession."

Where do you find that? I couldn't find it. I'm just curious.

Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and REJOICED in the works of their OWN hands.

Acts 7:42 Then God turned, and gave THEM UP to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

Acts 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan,

figures which ye made to worship them:
and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.

Acts 7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;

ISN'T IT PRETTY CLEAR THAT GOD DID NOT HAVE A TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM IN MIND when "Egypt, Hagar and Jerusalem" are MARKS of slavery and called SODOM?

Acts 7:46 Who found FAVOR [grace] before God, and desired to find a TABERNACLE for the God of Jacob.

Acts 7:47 But Solomon built him an HOUSE.

Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth NOT in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet.

Acts 7:49 Heaven is my THRONE, and earth is my footstool: what HOUSE will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

STEPHEN THEN CONNECTS THIS TO RESISTING THE HOLY SPIRIT WHICH WAS THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST WHO PROMISED THAT THE TEMPLE WOULD BE DESTROYED FOR THE THIRD AND FINAL TIME:

Acts 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Acts 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Acts 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Thanks for your response. That's what I thought.

Amazed...As usual, Kenny pulled out his array of verses to prove nothing....Acts 7 tells us that the Jew, as expected, resisted the Holy Spirit....

How did the Jew resist the Holy Spirit? Luke informs those who have not stumbled over the "strings" of their "heart," that the Jew "resist the Holy Spirit by "stopping their ears." Kenny did not see any reason to include verse 57 of Acts 1 to his smoke screen. Elemenatry: "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17).

It made no difference to the Jew why or how Jesus spoke to them, they were not going to accept the son of a carpenter as the Messiah. We get a very good picture of this in Jesus' dialogue with Nicodemus in John 3. Nicodemus knew Jesus had "come from God by the miracles, or signs" (vs 2).
Although Nicodemus never asked Jesus verbally, about this "kingdom that He had been teaching, Jesus knew his mind and explained, "Except a man be born of water and of the 's'pirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
(By the way, this is not a "parable" Kenny, and why do you not understand?).

Jesus knew the Jewish mindset: they all believed (and most still do, who cling to the Old Covennant) by being a "son of Abraham" this automatically ushered them into the Messianic kingdom that is prophecied in the Jewish Scriptures. We can see this mindset in Matthew 20:20-21 by the teaching of the Holy Spirit: "Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. And he said unto her, What will you have me to do? She said to him, Grant that my two sons may sit, the one ony your right hand, and the other on the left, in your kingdom." Read the Lord's answer to this lady: 22ff in Matthew 20.

This is why Nicodemous would ask a question that only a Jew, a Calvinist, and Kenny would ask: "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb and be born?" (vs 4). So, in Acts 7, Stephen was not giving a "Sublett" exegesis on the "musical instrument" in worship to the Jew, but rather, Stephen was informing the Jew that "judgment" was about to begin on the house of Israel for rejecting the Messiah and His kingdom.

Even Kenny knows judgment began in 70 A.D. on temple centered Israel. "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate" (Ma. 23:38). Well, then again, Ken probably has the temple being destroyed by the Romans playing the harp and the fiddle in downtown Jerusalem.


Again, read Matthew 23:29-38 for Jesus' words of condemnation on national Israel, for their rejection of God's Gift, His Son!
Jack Mann

No, No, Jacky, you MISSED the question and answer session

The Point was that Stephen who as FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT meant like the Deacons means that "he held the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience." He would have LARNED that in the SYNAGOGUEs or any elementary school.

Stephen spoke of the musical idolatry at Mount Sinia and POINTED to Israel condemned by Amos and Isaiah. Amos is a picture of what it means to be turned over to worship the starry hosts.

The king, the kingdom and the NATIONAL TEMPLE were ANOTHER fatal granted prayer or concession to carry out the delayed captivity and death sentence. Even taking captive the young men to make INSTRUMENTS OF CHARIOTS (musical) to run before the POTENTATE'S chariots was a PROMISED part of the curse. When David was TOO FEARFUL of God to return to GIBEON God gave him an alternative place for the KING'S sacrificial altar. However, NOT EVEN DAVID used instruments in performing his PLAGUE STOPPING ANIMAL SACRIFICES as a RITUAL which God commanded through the KING'S SEER who was a STARGAZER. No one can doubt that Jerusalems pagan temple with its own idols was part of the PUNISHMENT and destruction of the nation. No once can doubt that it was the center of ASTRIAL worship: the women lamented to TAMMUZ while the men bowed to the SUN in the EAST.

Therefore, the LUST to restore a temple, priests, Levitical musicians (confessed by Catholics) and the UNBLOODY mass where John Mark Hicks claims that we offer a SACRIFICE while God eats the fat with us.

The Jews destroyed Jesus and Stephen and Paul because they THREATENED their money tree. That is why the Bible uses Hagar whose ARABS manned the Temple state as the TYPE of Egypt, Mount Sinai, Jerusalem and Sodom.

Revelation 18 prophesied the END TIME restoration. After the musicians and music etal are destroyed in Revelation 18 as God POKES OUT THEIR LAMPS, John gives another CODED message in the following chapters to IDENTIFY the faithful churches. That is left as an exercise for the card class.

No Kenneth, with a little study on you own, you will find that Stephen, by the "laying on of the Apostles hands" (Acts 6:6), received the gifts, which would have included
"knowledge" to speak to this Jewish audience. Take another look at verse 10 of Acts 6. In the KJV the Calvinist translators got in wrong as usual. They use the noun "spirit" (human) by which he spoke. Now, any jake legged preacher can tell from the contex of Stephen's diologue it was the "SPIRIT" of John 14:26 or John 16:13 who was speaking through him. It takes professional help to miss that Kenny....You seem to be getting a lot of that help lately...!

You really need to study apostolic doctrine. You are so far out in left field on Revelation 18 that we couldn't find you with a search light at high noon. Your stock in New Testament doctrine is heading on a collision course with Enron. Move over Jimmy Swaggart and Benny Hein (or is that Hill?), here comes the Reverend, Mr. Sublett.


Try it again Ken...Steven, who "continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine" (Acts 2:42), like the three thousand souls (Acts 2:41)who had become Christians at Pentecost. Now, Stephen, who had been baptized in water for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirt," along with the six other "chosen" brethren, by the congregation, at the request of the Apostles (Acts 6:3). Sorry Kenny, Scripture does not support your theory that these men were called "Deacons," if so, please direct me to chapter and verse. Did you dream this up from "silence" of the Scripture? Come from the same orbit as the Anti's "heart strings" does it?
Jack Mann
Jack Mann

What do you plan to do about a RELIGIONISM built on the foundation of the Law of Moses for "authority" which speaks of a CURSE? Stephen--and everybody--tells you that the temple system and monarchy was a CURSE which flowed originally from Mount Sinai where they rose up to PLAY in musical idolatry of the pagan (always) trinity or family of gods. Without little David to play on yo harp where are you? You are still on the OTHER side of the cross where the same Musical Warrior Levites were prophesied and did MUSICALLY MOCK Him to the foot of the old rugged cross.

The word SPIRIT speaks of God who is holy or WHOLLY SPIRIT or it speaks of the MENTAL DISPOSITION of a Spirit Person:

Jb.26:4 To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?

Pr.1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Is.59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

1Co.2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of mans wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14: 17 Even the Spirit OF truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth WITH you, and shall be in you.

John 14: 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14: 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 14: 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 14: 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

WHO is that Spirit OF Truth?

1 Jn. 2:1 MY little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

For we who ARE NOT God Incarnate, that SPIRIT is embedded in the Words of Jesus Christ.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

That is why being filled with the SPIRIT in Ephesians 5 is the same as being filled with the WORD OF CHRIST in Colossians 3 and "that which is written" or "scripture" in Romans 15.

That's right Kenny, a "Spirit Person," was an apostle, or a man like Stephen, by the laying on of the hands of the apostles. You, [__________ (not an "expletive" but an unnecessary adjective)] Kenny, are NOT a "Spirit Person."

You write of John 14:ff as if Jesus is speaking to you. He is not, the Lord is speaking to special men who would be His ambassador's into a lost world, "the apostles". This is why the early church "remained steadfastly in the apostles doctrine" (Acts 2:42).


I note you have skirted my reference that these "seven men were NOT deacons." Could be, this is why the non instrumental church is fading out of history as the dinosaur: too many men who "feel" as though God has "called" them into the ministry and that they are a "Spirit Person."

I agree, the Bible is the Word of Christ, but interpretation comes from diligent STUDY.

You inform this forum that the "temple system and monarchy was a CURSE which flowed originally from Mount Sinai," and then you go into your chant against musical instruments.

Jesus did not speak of a "CURSE" on the temple when He informed the scribes and Pharisees that "your house is left unto you desolate." Hear the word of the Lord from Matthew 23...(You may want to write this down for future use).

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets."

Listen again to Jesus as He cuts the heart out of this self righteous outfit, who feel like many today, that they are God's chosen "Spirit Person."

"Wherefore you be witness unto yourselves, that you are the children of them which KILLED THE PROPHETS,"
Read anything here about a "CURSE" from Sinai Kenny?
Again, in case you missed the word of the Lord: "KILLED THE PROPHETS," (not a "CURSE")!

The Lord goes on to say: "Fill you up then the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you excape the damnation of hell?"

Read anything in Jesus' words about a "CURSE" from Sinai on the temple, Kenny?

You owe the people on this forum an apology.
You are so full of hate toward people who worship with the instrument, that you will fabricate the WORD to your way of interpretation. "Woe unto you! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for you neither go in yourself, neither suffer you them that are entering to go in."
Jack Mann

Mr. Cruz,
Why would you edit my post? I called Mr. Sublett, "Rambling Kenny" in my message on "Curse of the Temple." You write: "the adjustive is not expletive, but "unnecessary." How interesting, "Rambling," is an unnecessary adjective?? Some of the quotes that I have read on this forum, and you call "rambling" unnecessary? My, have we become "thin skinned". I love what Jesus would said to those Jews, of thin skin: "Do my words offend you?" Hey, Mr. Cruz, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

Mr. Sublett is a big boy, he can dish it out, and I have found that Ken can take it. Mr. Sublett does not need a "Cruz boat" to defend incoming missiles on his behalf. I will say the same to you Mr. Cruz, you are not a "Spirit Person." Your understanding of John 3, and Jesus' discourse with His disciples in the "Upper room" (John 13-17), is that of Mr. Sublett, elementary at most. Your understanding of "Justification" is that of Ken's: "Temple worship," and you are wrong! Now, be a big "Cruz ship" and please post my rebuttal to your "edit" of my post. I do not want those who read your edit, thinking that I would denigrate a person on this forum.

Mr. Sublett is an inquiring scholar, as was John Calvin. Mr. Calvin never found that Exegesis is the scientific determination of the meaning of the text as it stands in its total context. Had Mr. Calvin found that Hermeneutics informs and guides exegesis he would have never misinterpreted Romans 9, which led this inquiring scholar to his theory of "Total Depravity." This theory, which was hatched in the mind of Augustine, has led "Christianity" down the path into the deadly den of "Holy Spirit regeneration."

So, here we are in the 21 Century debating whether "psallo" is strings of the heart, or strings of the harp while many inquiring scholars in the church of Christ believe that they are a "Spirit Person." Oh, to see ourselves as others see us...No wonder the Catholic and Protestant world call those in the church of Christ "Water Dogs," "Dunkers," and "Spiritual Submarines."
We have become a "song of the drunkards that sit at the gate."
Jack Mann

Donnie;

Your evidence shows this person as a deceitful snake.

I count at least 2 others that would fit the same category.

They have been afforded their say. They have been shown warm comfort in our forum. There comes a time when you have to say enough is enough.

When your guest start marking on the walls, and putting their shoes on the coffee table, it only suggests their contempt for the truth.

They show all the signs of provocateurs.

Provocateurs are usually paid agents of a small group of people or a government, that want to muddle the message.

You can see them at demonstrations. They are the ones breaking the windows, just to give the others a bad image.

Our Bible tells us to move on, To dust our feet off.

Since this is our home, my suggestion is to ban these provocateurs and let them move on.

When good people do nothing, then the result will be to be ruled by this stinch.


David Rhoades

No, Mr. Rhodes, your Bible does not tell YOU "to move on and dust your feet off".....It seems that your are trying to quote the Lord's directions to the men (twelve disciples) He sent out "two by two" preaching that the kingdom of heaven was at hand to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 10), You Sir, do not even close to being one on of these men.
You misquote scipture, Your exegesis of text is that of a Calvinist on a bad day.

You, Mr. Rhodes can call me a "Snake" and Mr. Cruze has no problem with your snide remarks. I call Mr. Sublett "Rambling Kenny," and my post was edited. Is it that birds of a feather flock together?

At least you know where Mr. Sublett is coming from. You, Mr. Cruz, are the epitome of a monkey in a silk suite, still being a monkey. You are the kid on the block who owns the football, and when you lose you take your football and go home.

Now, you can run to church and "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual song, singing with grace in your heart to the Lord." Sure you can...in that silk suit....
Jack Mann

Mr. Rhoades,

I have a problem with one statement in particular in your post:

"They have been shown warm comfort in our forum."

I'd hate to see what counts for cold shoulder.

Is it worse to be a snake or to "shoot from behind the bushes." Jack is right. At least with Mr. Sublett you know where he stands. Am I one of the "2 others?" (Oh please, please, let it be me. I never won anything before.)

Come out and say what you mean.

If you want this to be a forum just for those who agree with you, say so.

Rick

Mr. Rhoades, Donnie does a good job here. He is fair and handles people in a polite way. Maybe you don't want to debate with people or perhaps you just don't know how. Maybe you just want to scare people and sell books. UFO's, New World Order, Bigfoot, etc. What a crock!! LOL

Sometimes a person uses a really peculiar phrase often enough such that it becomes sort of a trademark for him. Take the case of John Rebman, for instance. Rebman posted under that name back in 2005 or perhaps earlier. A favorite phrase he used when attempting to discredit someone’s argument was:

“It takes professional help to miss that.”

Rebman used that phrase in at least three posts in 2005, all in the same thread: Change Agents Big Obstacle--The Written Word of God in the Madison forum. The three posts were:

“RE: The Holy Spirit Manifested” May 12, 2005
“RE: The Church: In the Beginning May 14, 2005
“RE: Paul Was, but May Not Have Said It…” June 15, 2005

Then posts by “John Rebman” disappeared and those from a “Jack Mann” began to appear. And when Rebman disappeared, so did the magic phrase, until “Jack Mann” came on the scene. After seeing Donnie’s recap of some posts by “Jack Mann,” one of which included the magic phrase, “It takes professional help to miss that”, I’m now convinced that John Rebman has been posting under the alias of “Jack Mann.” And the alias is easy to create. Just substitute “Jack,” which is a nickname for John, drop “Reb,” and add an extra “n” to “man”; hence, “Jack Mann.”

It’s a real shame when someone feels compelled to use an alias rather than stand on his own two feet. But we’ve seen that those using aliases have a greater tendency to post uncivil messages laced with decidedly unchristian phraseology than those who reveal their true identities.

“Parable” from the Encyclopaedia Britannica:

(from Greek parabole “comparison” or “similitude”)
Short fictitious narrative that illustrates a moral attitude, a doctrine, a standard of conduct, or a religious principle. The term originally referred to a Greek rhetorical figure, a kind of extended simile, involving the use of a literary illustration.

“Parable” from the Encyclopedia Americana:

A fictitious narrative, usually brief, intended to illustrate some point in moral or religious teaching. As used by the ancient Greeks it meant any literary illustration. The parable is, therefore, of the class of fictitious narratives of which the simile, myth, fable and allegory are other examples.

“Parable” from MSN Encarta:

Name given originally by Greek rhetoricians to a literary illustration. In the New Testament it signifies a short, fictitious narrative.

“Parable” from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

A parable is a story in prose or verse that is told to illustrate a (perhaps covert) religious, moral, or philosophical idea. The word comes from the Greek [parabole], which was the name given by Greek rhetoricians to any fictive illustration in the form of a brief narrative. Later it came to mean a fictitious narrative or allegory, generally but not always to something that might naturally occur, by which moral or spiritual matters are conveyed. In particular, the term is applied to the parables of Jesus.

Rick and I can duel about parables until doom’s day, but the fact remains that a bonafide parable, not some liberalized definition of it, utilizes fictional or rhetorical or symbolic characters and settings to illustrate real principles, morals, or teachings as the encyclopedia definitions state above. If a story is nonfiction with real figures and real events, then it can’t be rhetorical or figurative, hence not a bonafide parable.

Rick has said that the story he wrote is a true account of his problems dealing with this web site. He calls his story a "parable," yet the moderators never posted it in the “Parables” thread (or anywhere else on this site), which ticked Rick off. Maybe there’s a really good reason why the moderators never posted Rick’s alleged “parable” in the "Parables" thread: It just could be they readily saw that the story WAS NOT a parable after all. And if they don’t ever post Rick’s story anywhere on this site, maybe the overall tone and subject are just inappropriate all the way around.

The moderators are really quite fair about posting, provided people follow their guidelines. On rare occasions, the moderators have even denied my postings because they felt that my material was inappropriate for the particular thread or forum in which I sought to place it. Instead of screaming and cursing them out, I accepted their judgment like a mature adult and moved on to other issues.

It’s time for Rick to move on as well.

Dr. Crump,

I agree, this was a ridiculous side road to go down, and will stop posting about it. It was tangential to the main topic and you know what they say:

"It takes 2 to tangent, er... tango."

Thanks for the dance.

On to better things.

Rick

We have looked at the first-listed uses of psallo which means to twitch or pluck. Next, the word applies to PLUCKING strings made out of tendons from which we get the word nervous as in nervous twitching.

Hermes made the HARP while just an infant--just born. He honored a turtle by turning it into a GOD. He scooped out the flesh, tied on two HORNS and a CROSS piece. Used the tendons of the turtle, strethced them and played a TUNE. He used the harp to steal Apollo's cows by inducing them to WALK BACKWARD so they could not be found. Apollo found out and was taught how to pluck and twang. He is normally known as the father of twanging bow strings to send a singing arrow to grind a literal heart into bits. He is also called the father of thieves and liars. He is the Greek version of the children of Lamech who introduced all of the ARTS AND CRAFTS to steal other people's cows and sell them back to them.



Psallo: Especially of the bow-string, toxôn cheri psallousi neuras twang them, E.Ba.784;

Nervus, i, m. [root snar-; Old Germ. snara, a SNARE; Gr. neuron; cf. parvus and pauros], a sinew, tendon, nerve. TWANGING your: 1 . membrum virile, 2. A string of a musical instrument: 5. A thong with which a person was bound, 6. The cords or wires by which a puppet is moved: b. A PRISON: in nervum aliquem rapere, B. In partic., of expression, FORCE, energy: horum ORATIO neque nervos, force, energy neque aculeos oratorios ac forenses habet, sectantem levia nervi Deficiunt, Hor. A. P. 26 .

This is well defined to explain what people are DOING to you when they attack you with speech or music.

sectantem levia nervi Deficiunt, Run eagerly in an easy-going REVOLT [to leave a person or thing, to desert, to fail, forsake, be wanting to]

Hor. A. P. 26 In POMPOUS introductions, and such as promise a great deal, it generally happens that one or two verses of purple patch-work, that may make a GREAT SHOW, are TAGGED ON; as when the GROVE and the altar of Diana and the meandering of a current hastening through pleasant fields, or the river Rhine, or the rainbow is described.

The great majority of us poets, father, and youths worthy such a father, are misled by the appearance of right. I labor to be concise, I become obscure: nerves and spirit fail him,

that aims at the easy: one,
that pretends to be sublime,
proves bombastical:

Euripides in the Bacchae is a perfect picture of NEW STYLE MUSICAL worship. Paul would have this musical "prophesying" in identifying the MAD WOMEN in 1 Cor 11:1-5. Even if everyone tried to speak in their own tongue which was THEIR minor dialect, outsiders would see them as identical to the pagan temples where ONLY WOMEN needed to be warned--other than homosexual males.

http://www.piney.com/DocEuripBacc.html

E.Ba.784 Euripides, Bacchae [775] I fear to speak freely to the king, but I will speak nevertheless: Dionysus is inferior to none of the gods. [Bacchae are the wineskin Musical Worship Team]

Pentheus

Already like fire does this insolence of the Bacchae blaze up, a great reproach for the Hellenes. [780] But we must not hesitate. Go to the Electran gates, bid all the shield-bearers and riders of swift-footed horses to assemble, as well as all who brandish the light shield and pluck bowstrings with their HANDS, so that we can make an assault against [785] the Bacchae. For it is indeed too much if we suffer what we are suffering at the hands of women.

The Bakchê are the charismatics

A. Bacchante, A.Eu.25, S.Ant.1122 (lyr.), Ar.Nu.605, Pl. Ion534a, etc.: generally, Bakchê Haidou FRANTIC handmaid of HADES, E.Hec.1077; b. nekuôn Id.Ph.1489 (lyr.).

Abaddown (h11) ab-ad-done'; intens. from 6; abstr. a perishing; concr. Hades: -destruction. Abad (h6) aw-bad'; a prim. root; prop. to wander away, i. e. lose oneself; by impl. to perish (caus. destroy): - break, destroy (- uction), / not escape, fail, lose, (cause to, make) perish, spend, * and surely, take, be undone, * utterly, be void of, have no way to flee.

ABAD was the SERVICE of the Levitical Warrior Musicians translated as: Hard Bondage, to enslave. Abaddon or Apollyon unleashes these MUSES called LOCUSTS but they go back into hell in Revelation.

Singers and musicians were ALWAYS called the HAREM OF THE GODS. Of course, the AGENTS of the God's got the musicians--male and female.

Mainas, ados, hê, ( [mainomai 1 Cor 14] )

If you all SPEAK IN TONGUES won't people say you are MAINOMAI" or the NEW WINESKIN worshipers of Dionysus or Bacchus.

A. raving, frantic, lussa v. l. in S.Fr.941.4; bakchê E.Ba.915 .

You who are eager to see what you ought not and hasty in pursuit of what ought not to be pursued--I mean you, Pentheus, come forth before the house, be seen by me, [915] wearing the clothing of a woman, of an inspired maenad, a spy upon your mother and her company.

2. as Subst., MAD WOMAN esp. Bacchante, Maenad, mainadi isê Il.22.460 , cf. h.Cer.386, A.Fr.382, S.OT212 (lyr.), etc.; of the FURIES, A.Eu.500 (lyr.); of Cassandra, E.Tr. 173 (lyr.).

3. = PORNE, Poll.7.203 cod. A, Hdn.Epim.83. Porn-ê, A. harlot, prostitute, Archil.142, Ar.Ach.527, etc. (Prob.from pernêmi, because Greek prostitutes were commonly bought slaves.)

II. Act., causing madness, esp. of LOVE, mainas ornis Pi.P.4.216 . to be mad with wine, Od.:--of Bacchic frenzy, Il., Soph.; hupo tou theou m. to be driven mad by the god,

Dionysus

Pentheus, though you hear my words, you obey not at all. Though I suffer ill at your hands, still I say that it is not right for you to raise arms against a god, [790] but to remain calm. Bromius will not allow you to remove the Bacchae from the joyful mountains.

Remember, that we don't have first century dictionaries. Therefore, the best that can be done is to look at HOW a word is used and understand from the CONTEXT. Psallo can be USED of plucking a carpenter's chalk line. However, Psallo does not MEAN plucking a chalk line and it DOES NOT mean "make melody UPON a harp."

Jack is a victim of his INSTRUMENTAL CULTURE. The Stoneites were conceived in witchcraft at Cane Ridge and dedicated to the proposition of lying, cheating and stealing churches of Christ to become LIFE MEMBERS, join the Sunday School movement operated with a SEPARATED leadership and not the elders, everyone buying the "standard" song books and Sunday school iterature and joining the SOCIETY intended to engulf ALL OF CHRISTENDOM.

Jack uses the Guilt Clause but he knows that however evil some might be, there has never been a non-instrumental preacher who would deliberately INFILTRATE and DIVERT a peaceable Christian church and make them toss out the instruments and musicians. The Stone Campbell Movement began at almost exactly the 100th birthday the "christians" for the first time in history used PSALLO to authorize instrumental music. That was in 1878. Before the separate census in 1906 the "christians" had organized a world-wide institution and announced it in 1908.

THIS PROVES WHAT CHURCHES OF CHRIST WERE NEVER PART OF. SO THEN NEED TO QUIT LYING AND LYING AND LYING.

The same group has planned over 5,000 new congregations and using the Lucado's and Shelly's etal as DUPES pretending to be NON-INSTRUMENTAL preachers they have begun to gobble up peaceable churches of Christ even if they lose half of the members.

All of the DELIBERATE DISCORD is based on the Unity Movements and Madison's problem stems from Jimmy Sites. I have collected the CONFESSION and some other notes:

http://www.piney.com/StoneCampbConfession.html

Such cooperation isn't widespread, but some ministers have challenged churches on both sides of the 1906 split to end their hostility and find common ground.

In August 2003, speaking at the National Campus Ministries Seminar in Manhattan, Kan., Rick Atchley said that he hopes the two groups can meet in 2006 and reach a mutual understanding.

Of course, Rick Atchley has declared himself sympathetic to the Christian church and has ALREADY moved HIS temple-state into the movement. How honest would it be for a Pagan to pretend to be a Christian in order to recruit them to become pagans. But, they are slicker than a salted slug.

Anyone with an IQ as long as the ages of these PhDuhs know that there was never UNION and any supposed SPLIT was consummated long before the Christians counted ALL of the RM as THEIRS when the census officer knew that it was a lie and consulted David Lipscomb which said that the churches of Christ DID NOT BELONG to the society.

Consistent with the CONGENITAL DEFECT birthed in withcraft and VOODOO forms of singing, clapping and instruments, Jacky would propose that those SHOT IN THE HEART apologize for sqirting blood on his dancing slippers. That is what you call your garden (of Eden) variety psychological violence.

Of course, the proposed REUNION when the churches of Christ had NEVER been part of the STONEITE movement, intends to STEAL churches of Christ and continue on their PATH to paganizing churches of Christ.

They all squeel when you OUT the fact that 100% of information in all ages and all cultures REPUDIATES music as a mind control element always used by the perferted "prophets, priests and soothsayers" to steal you money while pretending to bring you into the god's presence. At the same time it is LIFE SHATTERING proving a fall beyond redemption when you begin to grasp that there is not a JOT OR TITTLE recommending MAKING MUSIC when Jesus Christ meets us as our ONLY Teacher when the elders "teach that which has been taught." It may be like grasping that Santa is a code word for Satan.

Ken,

Perhaps I misunderstood, but is it your contention those who were intially influenced by Stone (as opposed to Campbell) eventually became the Disciples and the Christian Church/Churches of Christ (instrumental)?

Also, is it your contention that no "instrumental" congregation in the late 20th or early 21st century has become "vocal"? That is to say, an influx of members (and perhaps a preacher) eventually became the "majority" voted to cease being "instrumental" and instead became "vocal" not because of a change of opinion of the "widows" upon whose back the building was built but because of the newcomers (and these widows and others who had met at the building for decades ended up leaving)?

Finally, since it appears your position is that the "church" shouldn't be involved in any "musical worship" (and I'm no instrumentalist), what difference does this particular point make to you?

Joe

Perhaps I misunderstood, but is it your contention those who were intially influenced by Stone (as opposed to Campbell) eventually became the Disciples and the Christian Church/Churches of Christ (instrumental)?

That is the truth as I have found it recorded. The Reformers were not part of the Cane Ridge 'awakening' and the Stoneite churches continued to exist with the BIBLE as source of faith and practice as the only thing I am aware of that they agreed upon. Some "congregations" agreed to meet togther but from the beginning there was discord over whether the Christians had been defeated by the Reformers or vise versa. Most of the Reformed which was already using the "church of Christ" from outside of the "revived" area reacted to any claimed of JOINING of forces. Stone believed in ordained preachers, the altar call, did not preach baptism and there was no agreement--as I remember it--about the Lord's Supper. The Christian churches also ADOPTED the 'Shouting Methodist" ritual as an approved ACT of worship. Stone and his preachers were "forced" to preach baptism only when the little houswives in Alabama knew lots more Bible than the preachers. Most of the Stoneite preachers joined the Campbellites and most of the south was lost to the Christian church. That is why they sent "evangelists" into the south after the civil war vowing to "take all of the churches for the organ and the society within five years." I knew people who were involved in the SPLIT over hired preachers and they changed their names from Christian Church to the church of Christ.

Also, is it your contention that no "instrumental" congregation in the late 20th or early 21st century has become "vocal"? That is to say, an influx of members (and perhaps a preacher) eventually became the "majority" voted to cease being "instrumental" and instead became "vocal" not because of a change of opinion of the "widows" upon whose back the building was built but because of the newcomers (and these widows and others who had met at the building for decades ended up leaving)?

I am not aware of any and it would violate several Biblical and all of the contemporaneous literture such as The Book of Enoch almost certainties: that those who have made the mental connect between MUSIC and its feeling and SPIRITUAL (mental) worship have fallen and can never get back up. The first PATTERNISM is that those who so fell spent their whole resources trying to RECRUIT others even after they knew they were lost. I have also collected THE BOOK OF JUBILEES which may have fed the JUBILEE movement trying to "swipe" churches, The books of Adam and Eve and three dozen OTHER versions of the same understanding of people who lived at the time and understood that the SERPENT was a Musical Enchanter. The same story was preserved by the Babylonians who told the story in terms of their own "gods and goddesses." Some actual tablets--of which I have posted many translations--are dated at least a thousand years before Moses and perhaps two thousand. That is why Abraham was RAPTURED out of that land. The PATTERNISM is almost identical and undoubtedly fueled Moses to write an antedote as John wrote one for the end times.

Next, I am not aware of any INFILTRATION effort and I don't believe that it is possible even by the most evil of our wing.

Finally, since it appears your position is that the "church" shouldn't be involved in any "musical worship" (and I'm no instrumentalist), what difference does this particular point make to you?

First, I am a disciple and a Christian is a student and not a ritual worshiper. The REST Jesus died to give us EXCLUDES any kind of anxiety-arousing rituals or FUND DRIVES to build us a "theater for holy entertainment." There is not a single thing within the definition of the Qahal or church in the wilderness--from which loud instruments and singing were excluded--or the ekklesia or school of the Bible which permits such a BURDEN. The laded burden includes an EXTRA TAX added not in the time of war. That does no forbid a CLASS ROOM to get in out of the rain and snow.

Second, I have had two successful works STOLEN out from under me and those who had been members from their infancey sent into the streets and homes weeping. They all lie, cheat and steal in order to FOOL the fools. If I saw a young lady being raped in the middle of the street I would try to help her if I knew that I would die.

Third, fueled by an association with the Christian Churches (not the Disciples except as observers) they have flown a pirates flag pretending to REPRESENT the non-instrumental LEGALISTIC SECTARIANS and the Christian Church has USED them to foster the instrumental position and that has included STEALING some churches built by the contributions and bequests of widows who were BAITED and SWITCHED after the funeral.

Fourth, ALL of the literature is 100% opposed to using MUSIC which is defined as enchantment or sorcery representing themselves as GOD by claiming to LEAD you into the PRESENCE of God if you PAY them some obscene wage.

I know for a fact--and no instrumentalist can deny it without being a PLANT and a liar--that Paul defined the synagogue which EXCLUDES the diversities and OUTRIGHT OUTLAWS the normal PLEASURING OF SELF which point s directly to arousing SINGING which supplies the ROOT for the word HERESY because Demagogues USED arousal singing to LIFT PEOPLE up to carry them away FOR THEIR OWN PURPOSES. I can guarantee you that no person is lying about instruments other than the LUCIFER PRINCIPLE of Lying for Dollars.

The Christian churches and churches of Christ was an INVENTION after they split and the Disciples split and some people retained the name CHURCH OF CHRIST. However, the are ALL Christian churces and adopting it as a NEW DENOMINATIONAL name after the churches of Christ were already identified as NON-instrumental (throughout all of history) I believe that is just as TREACHEROUS as the invention of the Stone Campbell Movement invented in the last few decades. The MOVEMENTS were never the same and the MOVEMENT known as churches of Christ was the ONLY initial RESTORATION and included many things already reformed by Calvin who called his a Restoration Movement.

The Stoneites until years later RESTORED nothing but the claim to speak where the Bible speaks. But, I am not awary of any one who HAD NOT used that statement other than the Catholics and Anglicans who never officially ADOPTED the High Church position. Any similarites therefore are things adopted by the Christians from the Reformers.

The difference is that SINGING was added as an ACT of worship only in the year 373. Most people still used the DIRECTLY COMMANDED inspired text. Melody is not connected to harmony and "melody as tunefulness belongs to the 19th century." This GRADUALISM led to adopting the VOODOO component of the revivals and to human compositions to MAKE MUSIC as opposed to SPEAK THE WORD. When you start down the slippery slop you wind up using a CHIST OF PIPES or the MARK of Baal (Ensign of Baal).

My commission is to tell people that the PEA is under NEITHER SHELL and they have all been duped by hucksters. The only way to BE a first century SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE is to finally do a RESTORATION MOVEMENT and not let the bandits steal it this time.