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Instrumental Music

February 16 2006 at 2:47 AM
  (Login LueySmith)
from IP address 68.126.21.242

Growing up in the church of Christ, I never really questioned anything. But as an adult, I found that I have a mind to think and can voice my opinion.

It seems to me that the argument against instrumental music mainly comes from the doctrine referred as "the Law of Silence" Where the bible is silent, we also should be silent. However, what I have seen is that people of this belief regarding instrumental music are far but silent on the subject.

Please use the law of silence to tell me what is wrong with this conclusion:


First off, I am sure no one on this board will dispute that instruments were use in the Old Testament. The Psalms are full of accounts where David (God's favorite) talks of the use of instruments.

In Revelations, there are accounts from John of instruments in Heaven..

Revelations 5:8 the 24 elders had harps

Revelations 14:2 The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps

Revelations 15 2-3 They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb.

Now lets go to

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows

and finally the Lord's prayer:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven

If instruments were used in the Old Testament and in Heaven, and God does not change. And Jesus said, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. If the angels had harps, given to them by God, wouldn't this be his will?


Then what is the Big Argument all about????




 
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AuthorReply

(no login)
68.19.253.115

What’s the BIG argument all about????

February 17 2006, 5:09 AM 

Instrumental music is not supposed to be an issue at the Madison congregation.

The MUSICAL “Worship Leader” of Madison is “the founder and chairman of Acappella Ministries and producer of the singing group ACAPPELLA.” [http://www.madisoncofc.org/Ministry%20Team/Worship%20Minister.htm] As you can tell, this gifted musician is really in BIG BU$INE$$—just to remind you here and now that musical talent is NOT a “spiritual gift.” OK? He insists that he is strongly opposed to the use of musical instruments, and the current leadership has assured the congregation that it is NOT going there.

Now this makes me wonder if rhythmic clapping makes singing not a cappella—doesn’t it? As well as those thingies (vibrations, etc.) that the concert director’s “Praise Team” members’ vocal folds produce—the unintelligible sounds that simulate and are a substitute for the “forbidden” musical instruments….

There are threads on this forum dealing with music and musical instruments in the assembly. The “Sunday School in Exile” forum has dealt with this topic also: see http://www.network54.com/Forum/187069/

I have no idea how far this discussion will go. But let’s consider certain points brought up by the above poster in conjunction with facts and with properly “dividing the word of truth”:

  • Of the thousands of congregations in the brotherhood that have identified themselves for so long as “non-instrumental,” how many have become instrument users? Six or seven … including Oak Hills Church [formerly “… of Christ”? Haven’t they all become Community Churches?

  • … and the usual pro-musical instrument posters on this forum—which church(es) are they affiliated with? Or, are they simply dreaming and wishing that their respective congregations would be just like Oak Hills?

  • ”Growing up in the church of Christ” … implying “didn’t question anything … didn’t know any better.”

  • Understanding the definition of “music” (which encompasses either or both instrumental and/or vocal) versus “vocal” [only].

  • The only time “music” is referenced in the NT (Luke 15:25)—what is the passage talking about.

  • The instances in which the book of Psalms mentions musical instruments—was David in the midst of the congregation? What are psalms? “Praise music” or “praise service”—what’s that? The harps in the book of Revelation—taken out of context…? Harps … the Lamb … the Lamb’s book of life … the trumpet(s) … the pipers—LITERALLY? Wow!

  • The “law of silence”—a common defense mechanism!

  • ”The Lord does not change”; therefore, what?

Well, that’s just a few to start with . . . “what is the Big Argument all about????” … according to Luey.

Donnie

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
66.19.71.71

The Big Argument

February 17 2006, 8:53 AM 

Smith asks "What's the BIG argument all about?" Here we go again! We've just had one BIG, GIGANTIC series of arguments about whether or not instrumental music is scriptural in the Boswell-Hardeman thread in the Sunday School in Exile forum. Furthermore, the thread "Most Convincing Outline for Music in Worship," also at Sunday School in Exile, deals with instrumental music. I wonder if Smith has even read those two threads, because I get the impression that he's trying to justify instruments on the basis of arguments which have already been exhaustively disputed back and forth. But if he did read those two other threads and created this new thread in spite of all the pro and con arguments presented therein, then we would have to conclude that his motive is to dredge up and rehash the same old arguments and perpetuate the Fruity Loop.


 
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Tom Brite
(no login)
66.136.33.177

Re: The Big Argument

February 17 2006, 10:02 AM 

Donnie, as you know, I am a member at Oak Hills, but attend the non-intrumental services. Two things that I can tell you on this subject - 1. Instrumental music at Madison may not be an issue now, but it is coming; 2. Instrumental music is more prevalent among churches of Christ than just the 7 or 8 that you mentioned. These were the only ones that were reported in the Christian Chronicle, but I know of at least twenty congregations in Texas that now use instrumental music in some worship services. These are larger, urban congregations, just like Madison. This fight will be fought at Madison, just as it was fought, and lost, to a certain extent at Oak Hills.

 
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(no login)
4.152.180.164

Quack! Quack! remember the end time FROG SPIRITS?

February 17 2006, 12:21 PM 

    Luey:Growing up in the church of Christ, I never really questioned anything. But as an adult, I found that I have a mind to think and can voice my opinion.

    It seems to me that the argument against instrumental music mainly comes from the doctrine referred as "the Law of Silence" Where the bible is silent, we also should be silent. However, what I have seen is that people of this belief regarding instrumental music are far but silent on the subject.

What is it about SPEAK with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH using THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN or SCRIPTURE to EDIFY or EDUCATE, GLORIFY GOD and OUTLAW the discord from doubtful or untaught people in Romans 14 that is SO HARD TO GRASP? Only the INSTRUMENTAL fellas USE the LAW OF SILENCE. You have direct commands about what to DO in the ekklesia or school of the Bible in Romans 15 and the "not singing" passages. In Romans 14 you have EXCLUDED anything NOT related to teaching the Word as it has been delivered. The musicators used NO law expept the Lucifer Principle as the "singing and harp playing prostitute" to take people captive and STRIP THEM of their children's health care money. Don't get DRUNK with wine is a statement often found in the literature: it means don't get FLUTED DOWN with wine or PIPED DOWN because no "holy bartender" and TRAFFIC without the flute-girls which translates prostitutes. We have direct testimony that no MALE would do that unless a DRUNK or a PERVERT. Psallo means PLUCK and always points to WARFARE or to PROSTITUTES or SODOMITES "playing the flute to fleed the FAT HEADS and SIMPLETONS" as Lucian of Samosata wrote about Alexander the ORACLE MONGER whom you can see IN CHURCH.

Excuse me, Luey, but you have been listening to the PRO instrumental group. You may have missed the "church in the wilderness" where loud rejoicing and instruments were forbidden because the "civilians" were NEVER called into assembly except to be instructed. Both some first days and later all seventh days were for REST which does not mean WORSHIP. They were to READ or REHEARSE the Word or what the elders had hear when the tribal elders gathered to LEARN say the song of Moses.

The Law of Moses, the king, the Monarchy and the WHOLE period from the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai until they "turned to Jesus" would see leaders BLINDED. The sacrificial system and te temple were LIKE THE NATIONS because Stephen says that their MUSICAL IDOLATRY was their prayer to be TURNED OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST.

The people synagogued even in the wilderness which was to QUARANTINE them from "worship rituals" which originated in Babylon including the SABBATH and the TITHE as ritual rather than FREE REST.

Jesus build an ekklesia and Paul defined it in Romans 15 as a "school of the Bible." That is exactly what the Campbells understood. Their view was that you cannot ADD anything to that unless it is DIRECTLY COMMANDED or APPROVED by Jesus or the Apostles. There is no COMMAND to make music and indeed the whole Bible treats it as a SHOW OF CONTEMPT. Not a simple minded kid would sing, clap and play instruments if God REALLY came into their school. Well, only those who have been TURNED OVER to worship the STARS.

You cannot use the fact that God never stated the facts negatively--Thou shalt NOT play a instrument as used by the INSTRUMENTALISTS--as authority to deliberately sow discord.

The Bible is NOT SILENT and the fact that the URBAN COWBOYS in a grand , well oiled plan, can tell you that the Bible is SILENT in condemning is a proof that they are slick willies performing "miracles" just as prophesied.

Now, if you are a DEAD VIRGIN, you are permitted to SYMBOLICALLY hold your harp but this is allways AS which means a parable. And Jesus spoke in PARABLES to the clergy to deliberately BLIND those who had triffled with His Word. A Pharisee is one who CHANGES the Word specificially so he can teach HIS words so he can STEAL from widows using THE LAW OF GIVING. A Scribe is a BOOK WRITER who writes sermons and songs to SILENCE the Word of God. Hypocrites were a SECTARIAN band of merry (yes, gay) men who PERFORMED in rhetorical speaking, singing or playing instruments. Just like Amos, Jesus pronounced WOES on these people

NO JEW ever "worshipped" with congregation singing and instrumental accompaniment. Never. The Levitical Warrior Musicians SERVED or did HARD BONDAGE by making a huge noise to mask the horrors of the slaughter of innocent animals and the smell of blood and dung. That is why Jesus CAST OUT the musican minstrels LIKE ONE EJECTS DUNG.

The Catholic church NEVER engaged in congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment. When you hear MUSIC it is the MARK of the end time Babylon Whore who with all of her musicians, singers, grinders (prostitutes) and craftsmen (theater builders and stage managers) will be transported back to HELL after which there will be REST. I believe people can be STAGED by the MUSICIANS or LOCUSTS who come to separate those with different MARKS.

One of the MARKS of false RELIGIONISTS who SILENCE the voice of God with or without instruments is that ANYONE could ask such questions.

Is MAX headed for Nashville? Heard rumor.

 
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Tom
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66.136.33.177

Re: Quack! Quack! remember the end time FROG SPIRITS?

February 17 2006, 2:19 PM 

Ken, don't know about Nashville, but do know he is going to speak at Tulsa this year.

 
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(no login)
68.154.165.221

What a “Little” Experiment Brings

February 18 2006, 4:18 PM 

Tom,

You brought up some interesting point(s) earlier.

Refresh my memory here. Didn’t Max’s Oak Hills Church begin experimenting with the use of instrumental music in just a small group at first? And that it has expanded in the last couple of years to the point where this congregation (overall) now has the soul-less, lifeless, spirit-less and inanimate musical instruments PARTICIPATE in “worship” with its breathing members? And that the non-instrumental group you’re in is in the minority?

Thanks for the warning to the Madison congregation. That was exactly my point—I could not have expressed it any better. Perhaps, you should write to and really warn the elders of the Madison congregation about the “little” experiment at Oak Hills to which it eventually succumbed. I’m not sure it might do any good in Madison’s situation … since it is my understanding that you and other “concerned members” at Oak Hills had brought it to the attention of its elders—to NO AVAIL.

Frankly, I would not be surprised if your suspicion were to come true.

My own prediction is that the trend towards “instrumental music” will not go much farther. Yes, some of the mega churches are leading the charge. But knowing the “behavior” of those that have been infected with the “Change Movement” disease, what else should one expect? And how many would you really consider as mega churches in the brotherhood? Not many.

But if my prediction were proven to be wrong in the end, then, it would be in the 21st century just like what unfortunately occurred in the beginning of the 20th century—another “Christian Church” splitting and separating from the churches of Christ all over again.

The only viable solution to this problem is for such congregations to leave the brotherhood and join the [instrumental] Christian Churches—which after all has been the objective of the Restoration Movement “reformists.”

Donnie

 
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(no login)
69.91.123.99

Re: What a “Little” Experiment Brings

February 18 2006, 10:24 PM 

Donnie, the progression toward instrumental music was very gradual. It began about 20 years ago with the introduction of taped music in children's bible classes. It continued when Oak Hills introduced "Kid's Praise" programs which was an annual Saturday evening show of praise songs and skits by children. Also, there were middle school and high school musicals that were introduced.

In about 1999, following our move to our new building, the Wednesday evening auditorium service became instrumental. Following the construction of a new wing that provided "overflow" room for about 350 people, that service became instrumental and you had the option of attending a Sunday morning service. When the "church of Christ" name was dropped, the main services were still non-instrumental. However, when the decision was made to add Saturday evening services to accomodate the growing crowds, both of those services, along with one Sunday morning service in the main auditorium became instrumental. However, I should point out that since the addition of instruments to the services, the rapid growth of Oak Hills has stopped and leveled off at around 4,500 in attendance. This is basically the same attendance as was seen about 2 years ago.


 
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(no login)
65.1.221.92

Re: Re: What a “Little” Experiment Brings

February 19 2006, 1:25 AM 

Tom,

Thanks for the information.

It confirms the motive of the change agents that implementation of the scheme should be done very gradually and subtly. This has happened at Madison with the implementation of what the representatives from Madison had learned during their visit to the Saddleback Community Church compound in California.

It was done so gradually and subtly that hardly anyone (including myself) ever noticed it at Madison until it was too late. Outcome…? Its attendance has dwindled from the 3100s down to 1650-1750 on the average.

There are still many conservative members left who probably have nowhere else to go. I believe that one way for the Madison congregation to recover (at least somewhat) from its loss is to retire its holy entertainment/concert practices, including its current “musical” worship leadership. Let the congregation sing once again WITHOUT the aid of “Praise Team” performances, its rhythmic clapping that I have referred to as “programmed joy,” the non-sense o-o-o-oinking and unintelligible sounds that simulate musical instrumentation. [Of course, I realize that the problems and issues go far deeper than just “worship” style and content. Doctrinal matters are of major significance—the purpose of baptism (which has sadly been labeled as dunking only to get wet), the misuse and abuse of God’s grace, etc.] These are all DIVISIVE issues.

Based on Oak Hills’ sampling experience, should the current “shepherds” decide to implement the use of instruments at Madison, it appears that we would be seeing further decline in membership.

Again, thanks for the info.

Donnie

 
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(no login)
71.81.205.47

Hadjj to Saddleback

February 19 2006, 1:22 PM 

A number of elders from the Hillcrest Church of Christ also made the obligitory journey to Saddleback a few years ago to learn the "growing" secret of Rick Warren's success. He has been so successful that it is reported that Rick has offered $340 million for the New Orleans Saints. Hillcrest is advertising an Acappella concert in its February 19, 2006, bulletin. Check it out.

 
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(no login)
68.19.221.129

Re: Hadjj to Saddleback

February 20 2006, 2:08 PM 

Bud,

I have checked it out—here’s the link and message:

Here’s also an advertisement in the Madison Marcher:

    http://www.madisoncofc.org/Marcher/pdfs/01-11-06.pdf
    http://www.acappella.org/xchanged.htm

    “Quiet the Stones” Benefit Concert

    March 11, 2006

    The Madison Student Ministry . . .

    The first concert, “Quiet the Stones,” will be in the auditorium on Saturday, March 11, at 7 p.m. and feature a cappella singing groups, Acappella and Durant. Masters of Ceremony will be Cory Fleming of the Nashville Kats and our own (U-Turn) Lavern Vivio. Tickets will be on sale soon — $9 for balcony seats and $12 for floor seats. Please invite family and friends to attend this concert. If you would be willing to display a poster advertising this concert at your place of business, please contact the Student Ministry office at 860-3252.

    The date of the second concert has not been set at this time. Thank you for your support of our Student Ministry missions.


Let us know if you have any link addresses to the schedule of events by Acappella in BIG business in the name of religion—specifically using “religious” MUSIC in its business endeavors.

Donnie

 
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(no login)
4.152.99.30

GRADUALISM

February 19 2006, 2:01 PM 

Instruments are not NOW an issue at Madison but it WAS an issue at the JUBILEE founder's DRIVING PURPOSE. Rubel Shelly tryied the mantra intended to DISSOCIATE or drive people into schizophrenia by almost weekly connecting the ANTI-instrumental people to "fire bombers of restaurants, muggers of ladies wearing furs" and about ten of the most hostile RACA words that can be invented. I have reviews of that flood which continued for a long time but I think that Rubel decided that he was caught. Madison began the great FLYING LEAP through thin air which intended to get THE PROPERTY PAID FOR and the OUT the fact that you had been BAITED AND SWITCHED. Concerned Members caught them MID AIR and they ran out of steam and pancaked in the mud flats. Max was a bit slicker and probably had more PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENT POWER by claimiing that he had a VISION to add instruments and take the name of CHRIST off the sign. Well, we KNOW where that vision came from as His Cosmic Christmas is rehashed SUN WORSHIP. Rubel Shelly proposed thinking of the S.O.N. GOD as the S.U.N. god.

This was the SCHEME of the "merry band of men" who dubbed themselves CHANGE AGENTS and agreed on a set of CODE WORDS to fool the fools. Minimal Christians call it LYING but these people are not related to the Christian System by birth or association. Max made the PUBLISHED promise that the instruments would JUST be in another room using SOFT STRINGS. He also used the Farmer's Branch White Paper to preach his THEOLOGY. They lie about every musical term and name of instrument.

When you see people use GRADUALISM they are using the world's oldest scheme called Boiling Donnie's Frog and making them love the warm bath.

There is not the remotest possibility that they are Christians or even hold minimal Christian ethics. Charles Spurgeon wrote about anyone who would preach and subvert and he could not find a descriptive term to define them. The are WORSE than Hitler because Hitler could only burn your body.

The story of Jubal and the Lamech family is well documented in contemporaneous literature beginning with Babylon tablets dating a thousand or more years before Moses. The task of Moses was to repeat how evil people turned to the arts and crafts as MAGICAL devices to fool the fools and steal their money.

Israel had sinned because of musical idolatry and God gave the Law to legislate for the lawless as the went into Canaan without destroying the Canaanites who were so wholly polluted that they could never turn from sense stimulation to intellectual. I will return to that story and show how Satan used a full year while the Lynn Anderson Navigating the Winds of Change allows about 10 years to make the transition, threaten the opposing OWNERS and take control. I say that the whole Bible makes it the MARK OF THE BEAST where ZOE is the BEAST AND FEMALE INSTRUCTING PRINCIPLE. She USURPS the role of the SON as the true LOGOS.

That story both parable and reality was articulated by Plato who warned that you shouldn't be diverted one way or another by those introducing new forms of music but rather be concerned that "those changing the music are actually and deceitfully changing the laws of society."
    "music and gymnastic (must) be preserved in their original form, and no innovation made. They must do their utmost to maintain them intact. And when anyone says that mankind must regard...

      The newest song which the singers have, (Odyssey)...

    "they will be afraid that he may be praising, not some new songs, but a new kind of song; and this ought not to be praised, or conceived to be the meaning of the poet; for any musical innovation is full of danger in the whole State, and ought to be prohibited.

    "So Damon tells me, and I can quite believe him; he says that when modes of music change, the fundamental laws of the State always change with them..."

      "Then," I said, "our guardians must lay the foundations of their fortress in music?"

      "Yes," I replied, 'in the form of amusement: and at first sight it always appears harmless'." (The Great Dialogs, Plato, Classic edition, p. 312)
Therefore, history knows that these people are not just jazzing up the worship song with contemporary musical styles: they are intent on inculcating a new set of laws to replace the liberty of the Words of Christ. Unfortunately, these new laws are as old as the tower of Babel and the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.

This is why trying to shift people's traditional values about worship and especially about music can do more harm than good. The materials of the First and Second Great Awakening prove that "paradigm shifts" are more than many can take. In fact, one of the common features was the belief that those being revived should commit suicide. Judas tried it and took the ONLY way out: He hanged himself and slowly twisted in the wind until he rotted and dropped. Max Lucado thinks that Lucifer (Zoe) tried to prevent God from sending Jesus. There fore, God had to SLIP Jesus past Lucifer as a VIAL OF LIGHT which passed through Mary without TAINT according to the GNOSTICS and SUN WORSHIPERS under APOLLO and His MUSES which is another word for LOCUSTS. Evil people.

APOLLO is Abaddon or Apollyon who unleashes his MUSES as the instrumental musical worship team as the end-time fulfilment of the BABYLON WHORE in Revelation 18. The muses John is writing about to keep the Lucado's from being saved are the LOCUSTS. They have Scorpion Stingers in their tails and in the Classics put you to sleep in the noon-day sun and the STING YOU TO DEATH or MARK you.

 
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(no login)
4.152.96.156

Gradualism 2

February 20 2006, 5:58 PM 

#3 in Instrumental music
Their gradualism mentor, Adolph and Hegel would say:

http://www.piney.com/mkv2ch06.html

"The mass meeting is also necessary for the reason that in it the individual, who at first while becoming a supporter of a young movement, feels lonely and easily succumbs to the fear of being alone, for the first time gets the picture of a larger community, which in most people has a strengthening, encouraging effect.
    The same man, within a company or a battalion, surrounded by all his comrades, would set out on an attack with a lighter heart than if left entirely on his own.

    In the crowd he always feels somewhat sheltered, even if a thousand reasons actually argue against it.
But the community of the great demonstration not only strengthens the individual, it also unites and helps to create an esprit de corps. The man who is exposed to grave tribulations, as the first advocate of a new doctrine in his factory or workshop,
    absolutely needs that strengthening which lies in the conviction of being a member and fighter in a great comprehensive body.
And he obtains an impression of this body for the first time in the mass demonstration. When from his little workshop or big factory, in which he feels very small,
    he steps for the first time into a mass meeting and has thousands and thousands of people of the same opinions around him, when, as a SEEKER, (Als Suchender.' A Wagnerian phrase, which Hitler was apparently determined to use at all costs)

      he is swept away by three or four thousand others into the mighty effect of suggestive intoxication and enthusiasm,

    when the visible success and agreement of thousands confirm to him the rightness of the new doctrine and for the first time arouse doubt in the truth of his previous conviction -

      then he himself has succumbed to the magic influence of what we designate as 'mass suggestion.'

    The will, the longing, and also the power of thousands are accumulated in every individual. The man who enters such a meeting doubting and wavering leaves it inwardly reinforced: he has become a link in the community.
The National Socialist movement must never forget this and in particular
    it must never let itself be influenced by those bourgeois simpletons who know everything better,
    but who nevertheless have gambled away a great state including their own existence and the rule of their class.
Oh, yes, they are very, very clever, they know everything, understand everything - only one thing they did not understand, how to prevent the German people from falling into the arms of Marxism. In this they miserably and wretchedly failed, so that their present conceit is only arrogance, which in the form of pride, as everyone knows, always thrives on the same tree as stupidity.

If today these people attribute no special value to the spoken word, they do so, it must be added, only because, thank the Lord, they have become thoroughly convinced by now of the ineffectualness of their own speechmaking."


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.19.64.114

Music and the Change Movement: A Biblical Grab-Bag

February 21 2006, 5:39 PM 

The proponents of the Change Movement are so persistent and adamant on having instruments in worship that they find every possible way to “justify” them. Here are some of their more convenient “justifications”:

  • 1. The Old Covenant commanded instruments; therefore we will have them in our Christian worship.

  • 2. Jesus worshiped in the Temple with instruments; therefore we will have them.

  • 3. The Bible says all Scripture is “God-breathed”; therefore, since God breathed instruments in the Old Testament, our worship will use them.

  • 4. “Revelations” says that angels play harps in heaven. The Lord’s prayer says “thy will be done on earth as (it is) in heaven.” Therefore, it is the Lord’s will in heaven that we play harps (meaning musical instruments) on earth in our Christian worship.

  • 5. The Psalms do not fall under the auspices of the Old Covenant, because they are not one of the Books of Law (first five books of the Old Testament), and because they are poetry. Since Christians do not follow the Law of Moses, and since the Psalms have instruments, our worship will use them.

  • 6. Instruments are mentioned in Psalm 150; therefore, our worship will use them.

  • 7. The New Testament neither authorizes nor condemns instruments as such; therefore, our worship will use them.

  • 8. Using instruments will not keep us from heaven. Rejecting instruments will not get us to heaven.


The list could go on, but it illustrates the mindset of the Change Movement. Now here’s what this Movement conveniently forgets or ignores. I’ll take each item above in order:

  • 1. Christ laid the Old Covenant and everything in it to rest and instituted the New Covenant with His death, burial, and resurrection.

  • 2. Jesus was also bound to follow the Mosaic Law while he lived in the flesh, until he laid it to rest with His death, burial, and resurrection.

  • 3. God also breathed the New Covenant, which supplanted the Old Covenant, and everything in it.

  • 4. To take a phrase from the Lord’s prayer and by a circuitous route apply it to angels playing harps and thence to us is to take Scripture out of context. It’s also an abuse of Scripture. The context of “thy will be done on earth as (it is) in heaven” is a spiritual plea that the will of each person on earth conform exactly to the will of the Father in heaven.

  • 5 and 6. Although the Psalms are not among the first five books of the Old Testament or Books of the Law, they nevertheless espouse principles found within the Mosaic Law; hence, the Psalms fall under the auspices of the Mosaic Law. Psalms 27 and 116 both cite examples of making animal sacrifices to God, acts of worship and praise which are commanded in the Mosaic Law. Psalm 150 cites praising God with instruments. Since the Psalms espouse principles of the Mosaic Law, those who justify instruments with the Psalms must not neglect sacrificing to God with burnt offerings, lest they be guilty of neglecting the entire Mosaic Law. After all, Gal. 5:1-6 states that those who keep part of the Mosaic Law are bound to keep ALL of it. But those who keep any part of the Mosaic Law make Christ of no effect.

  • 7. The New Testament specifies that vocal music is to be used in worship. We have no authority to add anything to or remove anything from the NT’s specifications for worship. And singing and making melody in the heart to the Lord IS worship, whether it’s done alone or in the company of other Christians. If the NT does not specify instruments, then who are we to second-guess the NT and add them?

  • 8. To say that adding instruments will not keep us from heaven or that rejecting them will not get us to heaven is abominable arrogance and a good example of “selective doctrine.” It is man-contrived. How do we know one way or the other? Do we have the authority to place importance on those commands that please us and slight those which do not? Christ said for us to observe all things whatsoever He commanded us (Matt. 28:20 KJV), which includes the Gospels and His words through the apostolic writers. Our role is to trust God’s New Testament enough to do what it says and not speculate about what is not written there concerning matters of worship.



 
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Concerned Christian
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70.177.30.24

Re: Music and the Change Movement: A Biblical Grab-Bag

February 25 2006, 1:49 AM 

Why don't we just throw out the "Old Testament" You say we conventiently pick verses, but you do the same in your "exegetical" attempts. Where did you get your education in such matters? This is elementary theology. God is not that tricky!

I defended these same arguments in my childhood and then I received an education...and gave up my checklist theology relationship and it set me free. Hallelujah!

By the way the "Church Growth Schemes" and slow moving in and take over has not been some methodical plan, it is the Spirit leading people. I know that is foreign to you because the Spirit went back to Heaven and left some Book that we conveniently canonized and now call the Bible.

P.S. Please tell Donnie to leave Madison if he hates it so much.

Thanks

 
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68.19.221.127

Music and Doctrinal Changes—the Strategies

February 25 2006, 9:36 AM 

You (yet to unashamedly and boldly identify yourself) and others in the Change Army—conveniently pick verses from picked Old Testament books (Psalms but not Leviticus) to justify your borrowed musical and other doctrines.

You and others in the Change Army have gotten your advanced Ch.D. degree(s) from the University of Church Intrusion, specializing in Tricky Strategies and Schemes.

Go ahead and use your childhood experiences to justify your motives. Blame it all on your “dunking-only-to-get-wet-but-not-in-order-to-have-your-sins-forgiven-in-the-blood-of-Christ.”

A testament is a covenant—you very well know that!!!! The Old Testament (Covenant) is HISTORY and A HISTORY. We study and learn from “history.” While there are eternal principles contained in the Old Testament—the New Testament is replete with instructions, commands and admonitions for Christians. I realize you despise God’s truth revealed in the New Covenant because you do not comprehend that Christian living and discipleship is not easy. Yes, you detest the NT checklist, but yet you’re adding more to it from the OT.

We are commanded [that’s right—this one is one of the many, many “checklist” items] to “study … rightly dividing the word of truth.”

Here’s the truth [and further explanation from your borrowed theology is unnecessary here] found in many passages, in Hebrews 8:

    [6] But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
    [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
    [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
    [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
    [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
    [13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

You’re correct—God is not tricky! You and your cohorts are!

Now … you are questioning the integrity of the Bible that is replete with God’s truth and will for His people? Is this what I’m hearing from you now?

No, I do not hate Madison—and BTW, I have approved your post and I am aware of your “request.” You are the one who hates the church you have basically left—but who refuses to leave it alone.

Donnie

 
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PPB
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Re: Music and Doctrinal Changes—the Strategies

February 25 2006, 9:24 PM 

I'm just curious. Luey, Concerned Member, etc...

Why did the original Churches NOT use instruments? Why did they consider them wrong?

Before you try and go around those two questions, remember, there is VERIFIABLE and CONCRETE evidence that the early Christians did NOT use them and found them sinful. So don't try and twist it or go around it. I dare you to answer it honestly.

Can you? Can you explain why it was still wrong for generations after Christ died? Can you explain why churches, that had met and studied WITH the Apostles, were against instruments during their assembly?

Would you agree that the Apostles would have the most knowledge of how the assembly was to act? They were speaking for Christ and God, where they not?

Also, remember Paul was Jewish. Why did he not allow these first churches to use instruments if he had used them in his Jewish faith (which, some of you have inaccurate info about Judaism and instrumental music)?

And if you don't care what the first Churches did or did not do, why? Why would you dismiss the first Churches started by Christ? Why would you look down your "educated" noses at them? Do you think that you are better than them? Smarter? Closer to God?





 
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Concerned Christian
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Re: Music and Doctrinal Changes—the Strategies

February 25 2006, 10:16 PM 

PPB,

Usage of Instruments.

Depends on which church you are talking about...The Jewish Church (Peter's) or the Gentile Church (Paul's)

 
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just me
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68.52.196.254

Re: Music and Doctrinal Changes—the Strategies

February 25 2006, 10:19 PM 

PPB, Excellent point and I feel one of the strongest arguments against instrumental music. Regardless of what happened in the Old Testament, instruments are so obviously absent from worship in the early church.

Donnie, you had said in an earlier post - "The instances in which the book of Psalms mentions musical instruments—was David in the midst of the congregation?" That brings up a context question that I've not seen in any of the forums (though I've not gone back through the ages). How does the context of Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3 make the "speaking/singing to one another" verses apply to worship or the assembly? Everytime I look at those chapters they seem to apply to how the Christian lives day to day. I have the hardest time relating them to worship.

Hope this is a good place to ask this. Any helps? Thanks so much.

 
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Amazed
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64.185.31.125

Prove it

February 25 2006, 10:24 PM 

What is the "VERIFIABLE and CONCRETE evidence" that the 1st century church didn't use instruments?

PPB, I am curious.
Why does your church use hymnals? Why don't all the women cover their heads? Why do you use a pinch of cracker and a tiny cup of Welch's for the Lord's SUPPER? Why do you have a church building? Why does your church allow women to put up postings like your last one? Why do you sit for an hour Sunday morning singing acapella and get in your car and turn on the radio to instrumental devil-music? Why does someone get up and make announcements during the assembly?


"Why would you dismiss the first Churches started by Christ? Why would you look down your "educated" noses at them? Do you think that you are better than them? Smarter? Closer to God?"



 
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PPB
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70.116.84.97

Re: Prove it

February 27 2006, 3:53 AM 

Other posters,

Please forgive me for my following comments if you find them upsetting. They are written with a very sad and heavy heart, not an angry one. But people read things from their own perspective and may react differently. I'm just sick and tired of how Amazed (and a few others) treats people on this site. In fact, I hardly come here anymore because of the attitude of some of the new posters. They remind me of Walt and 9iron.

Amazed,

As for your questions, do I really need to answer them? It's just a ploy to try and get people off the subject matter and the facts by bringing up ridiculous issues that are not related by any stretch of the imagination. LAst time...

You know, I started addressing each of them and realized, YOU KNOW THE ANSWERS and I'm wasting my time. You know these questions are silly and unrelated to the topic at hand. You know that your questions are in full of incorrect assumptions. I'm not going to play this game with you any longer. You can look on this site yourself for the answers to such questions...I know I and others have posted responses to them before.

YOu can't handle the scriptural truth and are trying to find a way around what you want vs. what God commanded. You know it and I know it. Most importantly, God knows it. That's answer enough for me.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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RE: Prove It (by PPB)

February 27 2006, 11:32 AM 

PPB: "You know, I started addressing each of [the detractors' questions] and realized, YOU KNOW THE ANSWERS and I'm wasting my time."

Dr. Crump: PPB, you’ve hit the nail on the head. The detractors who post on this site are well known for asking a series of questions, fully knowing what the answers are. Then they initiate a tangential discussion in an attempt to misdirect the train of thought. After a few weeks, they come back and ask the same questions again, perhaps in a different thread, and the cycle repeats. It’s their design to create confusion on this site, if we allow them to do so. David Rhoades directed our attention to this phenomenon as the “Fruity Loop.” One particular guy was really adept at doing this a year or so ago. He’d start with the question series, do the tangential thing, then come back later and pose the same questions again, but worded in a different manner so that it would appear as if he were asking “new” questions. His responses to our answers consisted primarily of taunts and jeers.

The music threads here are repetitious examples. We had the Boswell-Hardeman thread in the Sunday School in Exile forum, which pretty much covered everything about the pros and cons of instrumental music. That thread was finally closed to stop the incessant, repetitious discussions. Then the “Most Convincing” music thread popped up in SSE, and the whole mess started again. And wouldn’t ya know, a third music thread, “Instrumental Music,” broke out in the Madison forum, which just churned up the same old arguments even further! And now Concerned Christian, who worships in a c of C but whose heart loves the Change Movement, has been giving us his example of tangential lines in a music thread by repeatedly asking about “women covering their heads” and “wearing jewelry.” It's all been covered previously elsewhere. Anything to divert the discussion and hopefully make things confusing! How utterly desperate those detractors are!

Detractors come here, not to learn anything about the Bible or how to worship, but to promote the heresies of the Change Movement and to revile those of us who disagree with them. These detractors fit the description of those mentioned in Romans 16:17-18 (KJV) who cause “divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned…they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”

It's time to put the detractors on the shelf.

 
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Concerned Members
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Re: RE: Prove It (by PPB)

February 27 2006, 4:29 PM 

Ouch that arrow hurt. I told you about shooting to the left and to the right. Remember Satan is out in front. He is spreading lies about God and how His Grace is not stronger than instrument issues etc. Please aim forward.

BTW Keep in mind Bill, I am not interested in reading your posts from 2 years ago I want to talk to you today. Stop asking me to go and read some post that has been dead for 2 years. I could care less what you and 9iron talked about.

You are right Bill, "it is time to put the detractors on the shelf." Down with Satan!

We are on the same team remember?

CC

 
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Concerned Christian
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Re: Music and Doctrinal Changes—the Strategies

February 25 2006, 10:50 PM 

PPB,

Thank you for the dare :-)Okayyyy...here goes.

First of all there is no evidence that the early church consider them "wrong" or sinful. This is a gross exaggeration made by fundamentalists that were breaking away from the Catholic religion in the 1800's (hence our traditional arguments).

The Church of Christ and it's "pioneers" have long argued that psalmos is "plucking" something other than a harp. Yet you read educated scholars and I do mean educated including Church of Christ Scholars (not all) and they agree that this is indicating the Psalms (yes the Dreaded Old Testament reference again). In fact the "Melody in the hearts" is something that historians argue they were to be silent and sing only to themselves. That is ridiculous as saying that the early church considered Instruments wrong. Every little thing (function) was not recorded...perhaps this Christian Walk is not to be too tricky?

I worship in an acapella church, however I have given up this concern or argument a long time ago and many C of C'ers have as well. It is fine if you do not like it it is just a fact. I do not teach Bible classes or preach sermons about the usage of instruments. However when someone challenges why we do not I can only simply say, "it is the choice of our Tradition".

Please educate yourself in something other than the C of C hermeneutic and look outside the box and see the freedom in Christ rather than the bondage that so easily entangles you.

Please give YOUR "verifiable" evidence before you come back with a tract from your foyer.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.19.70.156

RE: Music and Doctrine

February 26 2006, 12:43 AM 

Concerned Christian says he worships at an a cappella church, yet he has continuously lobbied FOR instrumental music, saying that the only reason he can cite for not using them is, "It is the choice of our Tradition." This is to imply that "tradition" precludes the church of Christ from using them. Funny, after reading the Boswell-Hardeman debate (and I mean the ENTIRE transcript of more than 200 pages), I got the distinct impression that Hardeman and the c of C based their rejection of instruments purely on biblical grounds. Tradition had nothing to do with it. And I also got the impression that Boswell and the denominations favored instruments based more on the scholarship of the world than what the NT said about vocal music or what the NT didn't say about instruments. But I guess folks just can't get the full impact of the debate from a short summary of it in a thread in Sunday School in Exile. They really need to READ it for themselves. BTW, further comments about that debate should ONLY be made by those who have also read it. I trust that CC has also read it, to be fully informed.

If CC really wants instruments in worship, I suggest he just go to a denomination that has them. No sense of pushing them onto any c of C which doesn't want them. No sense of his constantly worshiping in mental turmoil in an a cappella church, when it is apparent that he would rather be worshiping with instruments.

 
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Concerned Christian
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Re: RE: Music and Doctrine

February 26 2006, 3:13 PM 

Bill,

I have said it over and over again...so here goes. The Church of Christ is changing...I am not going anywhere. I enjoy leading singing and singing acapella. However, I will not Lobby for arguments that are ludicrous and made up. The Thousands of people I worship with no longer are "hung up" on the issue either. Your # is dwindling. It is flat out a preference that we worship acapella or not. I have read the Boswell-Hardeman debates for years. It is once a gain an argument that is quickly sinking...taking on water if you will.

As I have said to Donnie and now I will say it to you. I will stay right in the Church of Christ and enjoy acapella singing, however I will not condemn a soul to hell for the use of instruments in their worship to do so is playing God and I refuse to sit on that seat.

If Heaven is determined by what one does for an Hour or two on Sunday then it is sad glimpse of attaining Heaven (sounds like Works or working one's way into Heaven.) I see Heaven as very attainable, a road not filled with Land Mines of assumptions about what was done 2,000 years ago.

To assume that Paul was a hater of music when in fact it was part of their Worship rituals with the Old Covenant is outrageous. Hummmm...Maybe he was trying to preach grace and how to grow the church rather than fill it with "I wonder if" theology. We have unfortunately developed a Checklist of what must have been said and PPB coming in and stating that it was NEVER used and WRONG is an outright fallacy. It is just regurgitated from what she has always been told...I know because I used to be tough on this crime of instrument usage as well.

So sad...by the way you can take this anyway you want, but there are more things to be concerned with than instruments...like fighting Satan! Please aim your arrows at him rather than turning to the right and left and shooting them at others and me that are fighting Satan as well.

Thanks.

 
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4.153.71.205

The GOAT (Beast) Singers and their organs.

February 26 2006, 4:50 PM 

First, to be A capella, you have to be a virgin and celibate: that means no erotic having sex in the holy places. That is what they say about ALL priestly roles. Did I tell you that the musical PRECENTER was the "first heresy largely pervading the church." The next was SINGING as an ACT of worship was added as late as 373. So, what you are doing is religionism but not REMOTELY connected to what Jesus founded for the "tiny minority." Jesus WILL NOT be in the MULTITUDES other than to lead you captive.

Next, we have to CASTRATE you. [If the testesterone test proves positive] That is the meaning of a capella. The word derives from one meaning of the Greek CANTUS the production of melodious sound, a musical utterance or expression, either with voice or instrument if you are a GOAT SINGER then you may not be permitted to know that MELODY is not HARMONY. Harmony often meant MOVING TOGETHER as the musicators MADE MELODY where PSALLO is always connected to homosexual performances. It includes

2. With instruments, a playing, music: in nervorum vocumque cantibus: citharae, horribili stridebat tibia cantu, Querulae tibiae, Of an actor: cantus remissiores facere,

LOTS of people DON'T see you thinglings as CUTE as you see yourselves. All history knows that HARMONY generates off key overtones which HURT. Horribili stridebat tibia cantu is what God OUTLAWED for the synagogue or church in the wilderness when the people assembled ONLY for teaching the Word.

Now the SECT of the Hypocrites were one of the groups denounced by Jesus. All musical PERFORMERS--especially moving together--are ACTORS where performance. is two or three REMOVES from the FACTS.

The word Queruus complaints, complaining, querulous
    Softly complaining, uttering a plaintive sound, murmuring, cooing, warbling, chirping, querulae cicadae, capella,

    Capella is a SHE GOAT although PAN the BEAST was bisexual

I hate to show this to sensitive eyes but about HALF of the "audience" see this going on in the Holy Place you have invaded so don't blame ME for what the PERFORMING musicators actually signal with ORGANIC ORGANS or MECHANICAL organs:





Cicadae are the Locusts or Muses of Apollo. Satan unleased them as a MARK of the end time whore.
    Horribilis terrible, fearful, dreadful, horrible

    Spectacuum (contr. specta-clum a show, sight, spectacle (class.).

Don't you guys do a SPECTACLE OF WORSHIP?

All SINGING in order to AROUSE the "moving together" or even simple harmony is claimed to MOVE the worshipers into the presence of God. Therefore, YOU are a witch and by count there should be ONLY ONE warlock to every ten thousand WITCHES. The familiar spirit means VILE or VIOL and will go back into hell about now.

Even in Ezekiel, the only PROPHETESSES with the power to MAKE SOULS FLY were SUPPOSED to be female: whats up?
    And when they shall say unto you, Seek (worship or inquire from) unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards (conjurers) that peep (chirp like a bird), and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? Isaiah 8:19

    To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20

    Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Is.29:13
If you get your lipstick on STRAIGHT, I will tell you the connection betwee CAPPELLA or CAPELLA and the FEMALE GOAT. Remember, "tragedy" well that is the FEMALE goat song which in the Greek world HAD to be performed by MALES of whom Plato warned of GENDER BLEED.

 
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Amazed
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64.185.31.125

Ken, you owe me a computer!

February 27 2006, 11:45 AM 

I was taking a big drink of coffee when I began reading this post. I laughed so hard, I spewed it all over my computer and shorted it out. It's ruined. You should buy me a new one!

Keep it up Brother Ken. This is your best work yet!
And I quote:

"First, to be A capella, you have to be a virgin and celibate: that means no erotic having sex in the holy places."

"Next, we have to CASTRATE you."

Classic. I used to think you made this stuff up. Now I really do believe you find this SOMEWHERE. No one could make this stuff up. Goat singers... it's great!

P.S.- I'm glad the moderators let you post a picture of a goat with a giant erection. There's no way I would have gotten away with that. It's disgusting and uncalled for, and has nothing to do with this site, this thread, or Christianity at all. Really.

 
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Amazed
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64.185.31.125

I can't let it go

February 27 2006, 4:17 PM 

Ken, it just struck me what you wrote just above this ungodly picture:

"I hate to show this to sensitive eyes but about HALF of the "audience" see this going on in the Holy Place you have invaded so don't blame ME for what the PERFORMING musicators actually signal with ORGANIC ORGANS or MECHANICAL organs"

Once again, another flat-out lie. Or lies to be exact.

Lie #1- "I hate to show this to sensetive eyes, but..."
You don't hate to show it or you wouldn't. You don't hate to show that kind of vulgarity, because that's all you do show OR talk about on this site. It's crude, and you love it.

Lie #2- "about HALF of the "audience" see this going on in the Holy Place..."
I know what you mean, and not anywhere close to half the people who think instruments are bad, and there's a change movement and all that see a guy with a goat head and a huge erection running after a girl. I've seen a lot of things at church, but seriously.

Lie #3- "you have invaded" I get the veiled reference to robbing and pillaging poor old
widows that you talk about so frequently. Ken, there is no invasion, take-over, OR conspiracy. Repeating something over and over STILL won't make it true. Keep on though.

Lie #4- don't blame ME for what the PERFORMING musicators actually signal with ORGANIC ORGANS or MECHANICAL organs"
I know your posts well enough to know who you mean by "performing musicators". I also know enough of the people who YOU place in that category to know that none of them are "actually signaling" goats with penises when they lead worship. I can't believe you even used the term "Organic organs or mechanical organs".

I had to respond again because I am so blown away that the moderators let this posting go on the site. It's incredibly offensive. Not to mention senseless.

Moderators, I challenge you to use a little more discretion and common sense. I've personally been censored for WAY less.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.217.125.102

RE: Music and Doctrine (by CC)

February 26 2006, 5:08 PM 

If CC has decided to stay and worship in the church of Christ, then he doesn't try to push instruments on his congregation. He should neither advocate them nor try to push them on church of Christ-oriented web sites like this one. If he can only justify their absence in his church by "tradition," then the Bible degree that he obtained has not served him well in that regard. He hasn't a leg to stand on to discuss the subject further, for he will not accept what the NT says about vocal music. He only argues from personal opinion, not from biblical fact. But discerning church of Christ members who don't even hold a Bible degree know better.

I don't recall ever condemning anyone to hell on this web site or anywhere else because of their "preference" for instruments over the NT's specification to use vocal music. I have neither the authority nor the desire to do so.

CC has claimed on several occasions that the traditional c of C is dwindling. If this is not merely his wishful thinking, I now ask CC to provide statistical evidence with reliable references to this claim. I will not accept references one or two local congregations that may be losing a few members. I want references to statistical reports that have studied several thousand churches of Christ across the USA that provide undeniable evidence of such shrinkage.

But even if the c of C is shrinking, it only proves that folks are jumping the ship of Truth and going to churches that provide more popular entertainment. Why else would they leave a faith that follows the NT to the letter for a faith that provides them with entertainment?

 
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Concerned Christian
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Re: RE: Music and Doctrine (by CC)

February 26 2006, 10:07 PM 

Bill,

So you are saying that the Sunday Worship dictates one's destiny??? WOW!

Getting an education from the PHDuhs as your site refers to is far more enlightenigng than the tracts that we grew up reading and defending.
I am cracking up right now. Splits are everywhere. The c of C's are not bringing people in like you imagine. Look at the C of C guide and it continues to get thicker because of splits and arguments.

I am not going to bring you statistics I have not the time nor the enegry, however you can go on about the c of C following it to a "Letter" and I would bet $$$ that your Wife does not cover her Head??? If she does then you are on the path to following it to the "Letter." Do you greet with a Holy Kiss at the door? Do you cover your head? Have you shaved your wife's head? Does she were jewelry at church functions? Does she remain silent?

If you are not follwing these things to the "letter" then you condemn yourself by your own words.

I know I know the "Fruity Loops" are coming!

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.217.165.84

RE: Music and Doctrine by CC (Feb. 26)

February 27 2006, 9:33 AM 

That's all right, CC. I won't hold it against you because you were neither willing nor able to produce statistics to back your claim that the c of C is shrinking. I didn't think you would or could, and neither did the rest of the discerning readers here. Just smoke and mirrors, we all knew. You may not realize it, friend, but you and others of like mind who stay in the c of C but whose hearts really sympathize with and embrace the heresies of the Change Movement are playing crucial roles that are leading up to the end times. And so are the folks who remain in the c of C but who remain faithful to the tenets of the NT.

I direct you to the post entitled "On Second Thought..."

 
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PPB
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Re: Music and Doctrinal Changes—the Strategies

February 27 2006, 3:13 AM 

Thank you Concerned Christian for that incredible comeback!!!!

Is this how your church is teaching you...through tracks? For shame! Are you unaware of the documents that exist from the first few centuries, both Christian and non-Christian that discuss the early church and their actions/inactions?

I thought a little history lesson might be needed about now, as I've seen some very erroneous statements made regarding "psallo" and musical instruments on this posting.

Let's start with some early Christian Elders - well before the time of the Catholic Church...

Justin Marytr c. 160, states in his response to a Roman, "Your (pagan) public assemblies I have come to hate. For there are excessive banquets and subtle flutes that provoke people to lustful movemements."

Irenaeus, c. 180 "Of such persons, too, the Spirit has spoken through Isaiah: "They drink wine with harps, tablets, psalteries and flutes. However, they do not regard the works of God."

Clement of Alexander, c 195 "If people occupy their time with pipes, psalateries, choirs, dances, Egyptian clapping of hands, and such disorderly frivolities, they become quite immodest...Let the pipe be resigned to shephards, and the flute to the superstitious ones who are engrossed in idolatry. For in truth, such instruments are to be banished from the temperate banquet...Man is truly a peaceful instrument. However, if you investigate, you will find other instruments to be warlike, inflaming to lusts, kindling up passion, or rousing wrath... We no longer employ the ancient psaltery, trumpet, timbrel and flute. For those expert in war and scorners of the fear of God were inclined to make use of these instruments in the choruses as their festive assemblies..." He goes on to state that if you play them, play them away from the assembly so as not to cause effeminancy and indecency, as instruments are for reveling and tawdry music.

Tertullian, Novation, Cyprian and others all discussed that instruments should not be in the assembly as they are temptations presented by Satan and designed to weaken Christians. Remember, the scriptures tell us that worship is to be orderly and serious!

Pliny, a roman official who hated the Christians, discussed how they met and sang hymns. He was disgusted with the simplicity of their meetings and how different it was from the pagan religions. The Christian's meetings were known for being very quiet, with only their voices heard to sing. Everything was done with order and seriousness.

Mark Minucius Felix c. 200 - discusses how the assembly and our lives should be done in quietness.

Later church leaders and elders:

Erasmus: "We have brought into our churches certain operatic and theatrical music; such a confused, disorderly chattering of some words as I hardly think was ever in any of the Grecian or Roman theatres. The church rings with the noise of trumpets, pipes, and dulcimers; and human voices strive to bear their part with them. Men run to church as to a theatre, to have their ears tickled. And for this end organ makers are hired with great salaries, and a company of boys, who waste all their time learning these whining tones."

Eusebius: "Of old at the time those of the circumcision were worshipping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and cithara and to do this on Sabbath days... We render our hymn with a living psalterion and a living cithara with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms."

Aquinas: "Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may not seem to Judaize." (Thomas Aquinas, Bingham's Antiquities, Vol. 3)

Augustine: "musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship." (Augustine 354 A.D., describing the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius)

Chrysostom: "David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)

In fact, around the same time that the Apostles were helping start the Church, the Jewish religion was undergoing a debate about continuing the use of musical instruments. Philo of Alexandria, Hellenistic–Judaic philosopher, who wrote in the early years of the Christian era, stated that he was opposed to any kind of music in worship and wanted it stopped.

Historians also agree, and the amount of evidence is overwhelming...

There can be no doubt that originally the music of the divine service was every where entirely of a vocal nature. (Emil Nauman, The History of Music, Vol. 1, p. 177)

We have no real knowledge of the exact character of the music which formed a part of the religious devotion of the first Christian congregations. It was, however, purely vocal. Instrumental music was excluded, at first, as having been used by the Romans at their depraved festivities; and everything reminding them of heathen worship could not be endured by the new religionists. (Frederic Louis Ritter, History of Music from the Christian Era to the Present Time, p. 28)

The general introduction of instrumental music can certainly not be assigned to a date earlier than the 5th and 6th centuries; yea, even Gregory the Great, who towards the end of the 6th century added greatly to the existing church music, absolutely prohibited the use of instruments. Several centuries later the introduction of the organ in sacred service gave the place to instruments as accompaniments for Christian song, and from that time to this they have been freely used with few exceptions. The first organ is believed to have been used in the Church service in the 13th century. (McClintock and Strong, Cyclopaedia of Biblical Literature, Vol 6, p. 759)

*********************************

So, I ask you again. Why didn't the first Christians use musical instruments?

 
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Concerned Christian
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Re: Music and Doctrinal Changes—the Strategies

February 27 2006, 5:09 PM 

Good info. Read it a million times. Please reference what churches are having Sex on stage and Orgies in worship due to these dreaded instruments.

Once again these men were arguing there opinions. They were not basing it on anything out of Paul's Text. I still do not agree with you and will never go back to shackling myself to such things that are not a COMMAND.

"Mark Minucius Felix c. 200 - discusses how the assembly and our lives should be done in quietness."

If you are going to add this to your new scriptures then you must follow it it to a "T"

Let's get together and be quiet, I could interpret these "new scriptures" as silence...no talking!!!

Remember the early Christians left the Synagogues and Temple and were in hiding. I would be quiet too. I would not start banging on some drum or cymbal...I would be quiet! My life would depend on it.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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RE: Music and Doctrine (by CC, Feb. 27)

February 28 2006, 9:35 AM 

CC: "Once again these men [whom PPB quoted] were arguing there [sic] opinions. They were not basing it on anything out of Paul's Text. I still do not agree with you and will never go back to shackling myself to such things that are not a COMMAND."

Dr. Crump: Paul's texts in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 specify using vocal music. Yet CC apparently only recognizes these as "suggestions" (church of Christ "tradition") which may be taken or left at will, not as specific commands. This is indeed an assumption on CC's part, for in his epistles, Paul clearly identifies those few passages that are his own opinions and not the dictates of the Spirit of Christ. Everything else Paul received through the Spirit of Christ. For example, while discussing the problems of marriage, Paul states:

"But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If a brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away" (1 Cor. 7:12 KJV).

Paul wrote what was given to him through the Spirit of Christ (Gal. 1:11-12), and what personal opinions he interjected he clearly flagged them beforehand. It would have been heresy on Paul's part to do otherwise.

What Paul wrote about vocal music came from the Spirit of Christ. Since Paul did not flag it as his personal opinion, it is a COMMAND. Now for our general readers:

  • The Christ-centered person does not add instruments when the NT does not authorize instruments in worship, for to do so is arrogant assumption.

  • The Christ-centered person does not add instruments just because the NT does not condemn them by name, for to do so is arrogant assumption.

  • The Christ-centered person gladly obeys ALL things whatsoever Christ commanded us (Matt. 28:20) through the Gospels and the apostolic writers. This means that everything written therein that is not clearly flagged as human opinion is to be followed with faithful obedience; not some of it; not a little of it; but ALL of it. This includes vocal music.

  • The Christ-centered person does not try to find loopholes in those commands or slight them to satisfy his own preferences.

  • To the Christ-centered person, Christ's commands, including that of vocal music, are hardly "shackles" or "grievous" (1 John 5:3 KJV).

 
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61.6.116.175

Psallo

March 5 2006, 7:38 AM 

PPB,

You wrote 'It drives me crazy when someone starts on Greek translations without understanding that word meanings changed throughout the ages. Take Psalms (Psallo) for instance. The liberals use it for their reasoning for instrumental music. I constantly hear the translation as "to pluck a string." Well, yes, at around 500 AD or later it did take on that meaning. At 300 BC, it's meaning didn't have anything to do with an instrument and by 65 AD, it meant to sing WITHOUT an instrument. We know that Paul's letters were written during the time Psallo meant to "sing without an instrument." So, which one should we use? The correct translation of the word at the time it was used OR the one we want to make work because it's fits our needs better. I personally chose to follow the original intention and not what I want it to mean.

The info below is for your consideration

Lexicon ascribed to Cyril of Alexandria (444 A. D. ): (psalmos):
"A musical composition, as when the instrument is rhythmically played according to the harmonic scale.”

Clement of Alexandria (Paedag. ii, 4);
"The psalm is a melodious and sober blessing."

Basil the Great (Hem. in Ps. 44):
"For it is a song and not a psalm, because it is rendered with musical expression by the voice alone, without the accompaniment of the instrument."

Basil (Hem. in Ps. 29: 1):
"The psalm is a musical discourse when it is played rhythmically on the instrument with harmonic sounds."

Gregory of Nyssa in Ps. c.3 (this is not 100:3, but chapter three on the headings on the psalms):
"A psalm is singing which is effected with the aid of instrumental music.”

Lucian in Parasites wrote “It is impossible to pipe without a pipe or to PSALLEIN without a lyre or to ride without a horse.” (Approx 160AD)

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA

Clement of Alexandria wrote about 200 A. D. In The Instructor he calls musical instruments “licentious and mischievous. “ He then relates to us that he no longer employed these ancient instruments. But he concludes by saying, “And even if you wish to sing and play to the harp or lyre, there is no blame. “

Please let me know if you need definition of the word from Greek Scholars like Robertson, Arndt & Gingrich, Thayer, Vine etc. It is too long to post it here but if you or others would like more info, please email me.

Chris

 
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PPB
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Re: Psallo

March 6 2006, 4:12 AM 

Chris,

Thanks for your posting, I just now saw it. Below is my response.

Please note that your first passage is from 444 AD - nearly 400 years after the writing of the NT letters. Several changes in the meaning of the word Psallo had already occurred during this time frame - so I'm not sure how this relates to the issue of the original letters and their true meaning.

Clement of Alexandria (Paedag. ii, 4);
"The psalm is a melodious and sober blessing." - I'm not sure where you are going with this one, as I don't see any reference to the usage/non-usage of instruments.

Basil the Great and Gregory of Nyssa were both born over 250 years after the NT letters. Again, we have plenty of evidence to show that the meaning of "psallo" had changed by their time. So, I'm not sure how this ties into the issue. Furthermore, these men were part of the beginnings of the catholic church - which was begun by a a man considered a "heretic" by the original churches.

Lucian - born abt. 125. A Syrian writer well known by philospher's and scholars for having used older Greek translations from around 500 BC (well before the time of Christ) for his writings. As such, any Greek interpretation would not always correlate to the time of the NT letters. For your review:

"When we pass to purely literary matters, the first thing to be remarked upon is the linguistic miracle presented to us. It is useless to dwell upon it in detail, since this is an introduction not to Lucian, but to a translation of Lucian; it exists, none the less. A Syrian writes in Greek, and not in the Greek of his own time, but in that of five or six centuries before, and he does it, if not with absolute correctness, yet with the easy mastery that we expect only from one in a million of those who write in their mother tongue, and takes his place as an immortal classic. The miracle may be repeated; an English-educated Hindu may produce masterpieces of Elizabethan English that will rank him with Bacon and Ben Jonson; but it will surprise us, when it does happen. That Lucian was himself aware of the awful dangers besetting the writer who would revive an obsolete fashion of speech is shown in the Lexiphanes." THE WORKS OF LUCIAN OF SAMOSATA. Complete with exceptions specified in the preface TRANSLATED BY H. W. FOWLER AND F. G. FOWLER

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA
If you read all of his writings on this issue, it becomes very clear that Clement is discussing the use of instruments both inside and outside the assembly. He is fully against their usage in the assembly and wary of their usage outside the assembly. He felt instruments could lead one away from God, but did not fully condemn them outside the assembly (temperate banquet). I believe that is exactly how many c of C regard instruments today. There is a time and place, but the assembly is not the right time and place for the use of instrumental music. I think the posting by Judge Knott clarifies that even better.

Here are more excerpts from Clement of Alexandria, (c. 195 E), 2.248 - 2.290.

"Let the pipe be resigned to the shepherds, and the flute to the superstitious ones who are engrossed in idolatry. For in truth, such instruments are to be BANIHSED from the temperate banquet...The one instrument of peace, the Word alone by whom we honor God, is what we employ. We no longer employ the ancient psaltery, trumpet, timbrel, and flute. For those expert in war and scorners of the fear of God were inclined to make use of these instruments in the choruses at their festive assemblies...But let our songs by hymns to God...We must reject frivolous music, which weakens men's souls."

I hope this helps clarify why I have such issues with poor and outdated translation and why we need to be very careful about where we get our translations.

 
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Chris
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Psallo

March 25 2006, 8:23 AM 

PPB,

Thank you for your kind response.

I did not mean to ignore your reply. I only saw it today. I did not know that my original message was posted on the board. Anyway, I have shared what I would like to say. There is little else to add.

blessings

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.19.65.134

On Second Thought...

February 26 2006, 9:21 PM 

…I don’t need for Concerned Christian to provide any statistical evidence to back his claim that the church of Christ is shrinking, that people are leaving it for the denominations or other “faiths” that have become sucked into the heresies of the Change Movement. I take CC’s word completely. I wouldn’t be surprised if, one day in the near future, CC posted a message that said in effect, “All who ever belonged to the church of Christ, including yours truly, have finally left it for greener pastures, leaving David Rhoades, Ken Sublett, Donnie Cruz, PPB, Jimmy Wren, and Dr. Bill Crump as the sole remnants of that faith on this earth.”

Would this mean that we in the church of Christ had been wrong all along in completely trusting and obeying what was written in the New Testament, adding nothing to it, taking nothing from it?

Would this mean that we had been wrong to stay on the narrow path by keeping our worship simple, holy, and without raucous pop music and worldly entertainment to draw pleasure-seeking crowds?

Would this mean that we had been wrong not to have altered and rewritten the doctrines of the new Testament to keep pace with the mindset of a perverse, godless, culture-oriented society?

Would this mean that the Change Movement will have utterly defeated us, should our numbers dwindle to virtually nothing, while theirs soar to astronomical heights?

What would this mean?

This would mean that the prophecies and admonitions of Christ in the Gospels and in the apostolic writings were being fulfilled:

  • Broad and easy is the path to destruction; many will flock to it. Narrow and difficult is the path to salvation; few will ever find it (Matt. 7:13-14 KJV).

  • Though the Word of God be preached, eventually the time will come when people will turn away from the Truth and sound doctrine of the New Testament. Caving in to their own lusts and preferences, they will embrace the alien theologies of other “teachers,” who, with pleasant speech, will convince the undiscerning to spurn the Truth (Romans 16:17-18; 2 Tim. 4:1-4 KJV).

  • False teachers shall come by stealth and lure many to embrace “damnable heresies” and shall speak evil of the Truth (2 Peter 2:1-3 KJV).


According to the New Testament, the closer to the end of time we come, the number of apostates will climb, while the numbers of the faithful will dwindle. Yes, CC, if the truly faithful members of the church of Christ are truly falling, and since the numbers who embrace the heretical Change Movement are definitely climbing with each new day, all is taking place right on schedule.


 
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72.49.62.71

"On Second Thought."

February 27 2006, 11:41 AM 

When I read Dr. Crump's post I had to go back up and make sure it wasn't the J.W's, Jimmy Swaggart or Jerry Falwell posting. Interesting that Jesus said, "It is not for you to know the times or seasons, which the Father has put in his own authority." Paul would say to (the non-instrumental?) church in Thessalonica: "But of the times and the seasons, brethern, you have no need that I write to you, For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night."

Gentlemen, the Kingdom has come. Shame on you Dr. Crump, you comprehension of "the kingdom of God" is that of Nicodemus. Jesus' answer to you would be: "Are you a teacher of the New Testament and know not these things?"


No, Dr. Crump, you will not be seated at the Lord's right hand and Ken on the left with the remnant of David, Donnie, PPB, or Jimmy lounging on benches in the Upper room. You see, the "promise" was not made just to the "elete" by the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:39. No, you will not have your own "good old boys" fraternity where you and the "boys" will "black ball" those who have been "baptized into Christ for the foregiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit." Jesus would say, "Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces. and the chief seats in the synagogues and the uppermost rooms at feasts."

To those who love the Lord and have gone out into the by-ways and preached Christ are servants of the Lord. Yes, Dr. Crump we have "received a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, reverence, and godly awe: Let brotherly love continue."
Jack Mann

 
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4.152.183.170

OK to to TEST THE SPIRITS: not ok to STEAL CHURCH HOUSES.

March 1 2006, 11:08 PM 

Peter defined the MEMORY he was leaving, defined it as EYE and EAR witness and left us a record so that we could MARK or JUDGE false teachers. Paul said that elders (the authorized teachers) must "teach that which has been taught" and "refute those who oppose it."

Judgment here is not measuring a person's teaching by Scripture. Nor, is it assigning the same judgment Jesus assigns. Judgment is something taking place among "instrumental" churches as they lie, cheat, us the Law, steal churches and force the owners to "get over it" or "get with it or get out." J. W. McGarvey went through such an experience. I know of completed hostile takeovers or coups and I am aware of a dedicated people who have almost pledged themselves not to eat until they have "taken the axe" to ANTI-instrumental churches of Christ:

Matt 7:1 JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.

Judging is when you DECIDE that a church would "save more souls" if taken out of the hands on churches of Christ and then taking ACTION to inflict monetary and spiritual DAMAGE against the old owners. You may remember that one early such event was at Sand Creek, Ill., where Daniel Sommers got blackened for PREVENTING the stealing of the church.

Krino (g2919) kree'-no; prop. to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by impl. to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think..

krinô 3. pass sentence upon, condemn, D.19.232:-- Pass., to be judged, condemned, kakourgou . . esti krithent' apothanein Id.4.47 ; mê krinete, hina mê krithête Ev.Matt.7.1 ; the judgement of a court,
    Demosthenes On the Embassy 19.[232] With this example before his eyes, who, men of Athens, will ever wish to prove himself an honest man, or to go on embassy for nothing, if he is neither to make money nor to be held more worthy of your confidence than those who have made money? Today you are not merely adjudging this case: you are legislating for all future time, whether every ambassador is basely to serve your enemies for hire, or without fee or bribe to give his best service to you.

    First Philippic Demosthenes 4.[47] How then is all this to be stopped? As soon as you, men of Athens, definitely appoint the same men as soldiers and as eye-witnesses of the campaign, and, on their return, as jurymen at the audit of your generals. In this way you will not merely learn about your affairs by hearsay, but you will be witnesses on the spot. So scandalous is our present system that every general is tried two or three times for his life in your courts, but not one of them dares to risk death in battle against the enemy; no, not once. They prefer the doom of a kidnapper or a pickpocket to a fitting death; for malefactors are condemned to the gallows, generals should die on the field of honor.

Mt.7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
    Krima (g2917) kree'-mah; from 2919; a decision (the function or the effect, for or against ["crime"]): - avenge, condemned, condemnation, damnation, / go to law, judgment.
So, the old JUDGMENT ploy is psychological violence because you don't like people spreading the absolute truth that music is a MARK which says to God: "WE WILL NOT listen to Your songs and sermons." In speaking about MOUTH RELIGION Jesus pointed directly to beautiful singing and well-played instrument: they hear your words but refuse to obey.

It's all playing out exactly as Revelation 18's definition of the Babylon Harlot prophesied.

 
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Concerned Christian
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70.182.0.5

Re: On Second Thought...

February 27 2006, 3:53 PM 

Here are your Stats:

Source: Churches of Christ in the United States 2006 edition

2003 13,155 Congregations
2006 12,963 Congregations

2003 1,276,621 Members;
2006 1,265,844 Members

Dropping in #. Sorry Bill

And just think some of these members are of the "Fruity Loop"

Of course this source is listing the One Cuppers, Non-Class, Mutual Edification, and Non Institutional Churches, which you probably do not agree with.

 
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PPB
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Re: On Second Thought...

February 27 2006, 6:20 PM 

CC and Jack,

Go back and read your postings. Note that everything you write is about what YOU want and how You feel and has NOTHING to do with the scriptures. Isn't that interesting?

If we were to follow your command, we would no longer even need the Bible. You have made it a useless book, a reminder of days gone by. YOU are what the Apostles and Jesus warned us about. You fit all the criteria for a "false teacher".

You don't have any idea of God's love or what it takes to be a Christian, because you have distanced yourself from the Word. You go on and on about "love", but love includes your behavior and following God's commands. You are like a rebellious child, thinking you know more than the parent.

Take CC's comments on the early Church elders "opinions". Is that not the biggest cop-out! By the way CC, those comments were in regards to scriptures and what the Apostles had taught at their church. Yes, they had the same scriptures and even referred to them in these "opinion" pieces, though they were known as letters and memoires instead of Books.

And Jack's comments are about as unChristian as you can get without actually cursing. And that's the love your churches are teaching? The love of ignorance and ridicule?

You are so determined to stick your head in the sand and play "dumb", that you don't even make sense anymore.

You've been made aware. Your actions are no longer on my conscience. Good luck...you will need it.

 
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Concerned Christian
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70.177.30.24

Re: On Second Thought...

February 28 2006, 1:34 AM 

PPB,

You have made me aware of nothing. I grew up with it. Nothing you say hurts or shocks me. You and other CM's make Heaven difficult to obtain, I know because I used to do the same thing. PPB, You and I have a goal of Heaven, I just choose to not assume things like the usage of instruments as being a salvation issue for example.

I have said to friends in the past and I will share with you my thoughts on majoring in Bible. It was/has been the best thing that ever happened to me. The reason it was the best is because it opened my eyes to a Gospel of peace and developing a Relationship with God loosening the chains of bondage. I thought if I memorized a bunch of verses that would in some way get me to Heaven. If I/our team won Bible Bowls it would get us closer to THE Prize. How foolish I was.

PPB I pulled my head out of the sand a long time ago and it has been so awesome!

Also please study what a false teacher is. It is not someone that believes instruments are OK either.

I believe Jesus is the Savior and that is the truth. I believe He came here to FREE people, not make a tricky road of do's and don'ts that we would make into a COMMAND and then in turn become judge, jury, and executioner.

Please be careful that you do not get caught up in judging people's hearts. You do not know me and your words are full of anger.

In all sincerity...Thanks for the prayers it is great when fellow Christians Pray for each other, I too will pray for you that you be strong against Satan and his fiery darts that come your way.

Peace


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.217.166.197

Heaven IS Difficult to Obtain

February 28 2006, 4:21 PM 

CC: "You and other CM's make Heaven difficult to obtain."

Dr. Crump: That's because Heaven IS difficult to obtain, something CC continues to ignore. To him, broad is the way to salvation; it is ecumenical. But to Christ:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matt. 7:13-14 KJV).

Not all who say "Lord, Lord," will enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but only those who do the will of the Father in Heaven (Matt. 7:21-23 KJV). To do the will of the Father is to obey His Word to the Letter, whether that be about music, baptism, or selection of MALE deacons, for example. Here's something that many do not realize:

Every word of God/Christ in the New Testament, every command, every principle IS a salvation issue!

We take five initial steps to become a Christian, according to principles found in the NT, but obedience doesn't stop there. The grace of Christ does not preclude our continued and fervent obedience to everthing that He commanded. Every word of God/Christ in the NT is to be obeyed as much as is humanly possible, for Christ commanded that we observe ALL things whatsoever He commanded us (Matt. 28:20). What He has commanded is ALL written in the Gospels and the apostolic epistles. And if the apostolic writers inserted any of their personal "opinions" that were not from God, they made sure that they were flagged accordingly (cf. Paul's opinion about marriage in 1 Cor. 7:12). I will repeat this as much as it takes until rebels and renegades acknowledge it, for it is TRUTH.

To the Christ-centered person, obedience to Christ's words in the NT is neither "bondage" nor "shackles" but PLEASURE. Unfortunately, CC continues to place more stock in his "higher education," his "Bible degree," and the scholarship of men, which have emancipated him from the "bondage" of rules and regulations, even those inherent in the New Testament.

Ladies and gentlemen, "Concerned Christian," a person who bears a cowardly, oxymoron of an alias given his ultra liberal, theological stance that smacks of the heretical Change Movement, is a hopeless case.

 
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Concerned Christian
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70.177.30.24

Re: Heaven IS Difficult to Obtain

February 28 2006, 9:56 PM 

Bill,

I am glad you are Pleasured by your religious beliefs. I am pleasured by mine. I am sorry you make Heaven Hard to achieve. Thank God Jesus Died for us and that we are judged by how we live our lives through Him instead of being judged on every bad thing we may do. I do not sin so Grace may abound. I have just come to grips with the Fact that I am not perfect and let Jesus do the leading.

Your interpretaions of Male and Female deacons is wrong by the way. I know I know the "Fruity Loop" thing.

Please follow to the Book to the Letter on everything. Have your wife cover her head this Sunday or shave it. Greet people with a Holy Kiss. Serve your communion differently this Sunday. Luke 22: 17-21

Bill, You make it sound like I am an Anti-Christ. I John 2:22 I am just a man trying to get through this life and being in bondage is of no interest to me. Being in Christ is Freedom, not in a sense like you make it "where I think everything goes." I relize there is a responsibility to uphold Jesus' teachings. Once again everything you need to know about Godly living is in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.

May God Give you peace as you labor for Him.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.19.64.40

RE: Heaven IS Difficult to Obtain

February 28 2006, 11:54 PM 

CC: "I am sorry you make Heaven Hard to achieve."

Dr. Crump: We'll try again for the hard-headed. Christ, not Dr. Crump, said:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matt. 7:13-14 KJV).

Might want to reconsider Who it really was that said it's tough to get into heaven.

BTW, when you gonna ditch that cowardly alias?

 
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Concerned Christian
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70.182.0.5

Re: RE: Heaven IS Difficult to Obtain

March 1 2006, 10:36 AM 

He did not say it was difficult to enter Heaven. You are reading into it. Are you saying there is a limitation to obtaining the goal?

God does NOT want people to go to Hell. He established a Law for people to understand boundaries. He then brought the Law of Christ which is Grace Driven. No one is perfect, and when clothed in Christ's Blood I am confident that I am going to Heaven. Your comments remind me of class I was teaching recently. We had a few "crispers" like you that were not sure if they were going to heaven they just "Hoped" that they were going to Heaven. 50/50 chance? WOW! How do people not have confidence? That is the Fear Factor that has been engrained into Christians Heads for years! It amazes me how we cannot have the confidence that by Following Christ we will win! We are promised that!

There is no way any of us deserve Heaven, which is why He sent Jesus here to save us. I guess trying to undo 40-50-60+ years of theology are hard for some to do.

Jesus is the answer and I believe that. There are people out there denying Christ all over the globe, but do not accuse me of NOT believing in Him or making Him difficult to become a Brother to.

Let's look at what Jesus did not say..."it would be tricky and hopefully you will make it. Hope to see you there."

I am completely blown away at the ignorance of some.

 
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72.49.62.71

Heaven is Difficult to Obtain

March 1 2006, 11:44 AM 

Mr. Crump, you quote from Matthew, chapter 7, the Lords "Sermon on the Mount."
Matthew tells us in the beginning of chapter 7 that Jesus said, "Judge not, that you be not judged." His command here, lays down a general principle in the form of universal prohibition. This principle is, of course, to be limited by other Scriptural laws concerning judgment. As you know, our judgment of Christians must be charitable (John 7:24; 1 Cor. 13:5,6), in remembrance of the fact that they are God's servants (Ro. 14:4); and that He reserves to himself the ultimate right to judging both you and me (Ro. 14:4; ! Cor. 4:3,4; 2 Cor. 5:10).

If we are to pick and choose from what Jesus said on that Mountain Plateau not far from Capernaum, we must conclude that all the "poor in spirit" will be in heaven for in Matthew 5 we read, "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Jesus said, "the pure in heart" will "see God." Do you have a "pure heart" Mr. Crump?
How about the "peacemakers? Jesus said, "they shall be called the sons of God." Have you made "peace" with anyone Mr. Crump? If so, you are IN! Jesus said, "blessed are the poor, for yours is the kingdom of God." That puts a whole lot of people IN. Begins to "widen" the "narrow gate" does it not?

A Bible student would do well to research who was among the crowd listening to Jesus on that historical day. You are aware that the Roman Catholic Church has built its doctrine of purgatory on verses 25, 26 of Matthew 5? We must keep in mind that the Bible was written by men with a near-Eastern culture, and not a church of Christ member from Paducah, Kentucky. Jesus, in summarizing his teaching would say, "By their fuits you shall know them; for each tree is known by its own fruit." He is saying here: teachers are to be judged by their conduct as men and also by the effect of their teaching. If either be predominately bad, the man must be avoided. But, Mr. Crump, you and I must not judge hastily, nor by slight or trivial actions, for some specimens of bad fruit grows on good trees. I have grown to be fond of Mr. Sublett's rhetoric, I believe he means well. Therefore, I will refrain from judging those on this forum and become a "peacemaker".
Keep your sunny side up.
Jack Mann

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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The Sermon on the Mount and the Narrow Gate

March 2 2006, 11:09 PM 

The Sermon on the Mount, Matt. 5-7, begins with those who are the favored of God and who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. These are the Beatitudes. Here, Christ provides example attributes of those who will enter Heaven. But Christ does not reveal the relative number of those who fit those descriptions until near the end of His sermon; and that relative number is FEW.

For those who love more modern translations but who stubbornly rebel against the Scriptures and deny that Christ said that getting into Heaven is difficult, the New King James states:

"Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it" (Matt. 7:14).

And it's not "Blessed are the poor: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." The correct reading is "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:3 KJV). The first rendering can be taken to mean the physical poor, those without money or means. The correct rendering has a truly spiritual meaning: the poor in spirit are those, rich OR poor, who humble themselves and resist prideful attitudes; the size of their pocket books will avail them nothing.

It goes without saying that there are few people today who could be described as truly humble, given the many who have flocked to embrace the heretical Change Movement, a movement which fosters self-gratification and self-esteem over self-denial.


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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Another Modern Way of Saying It

March 3 2006, 11:08 AM 

For those who prefer an even more modern version:

“You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way. But the gateway to life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it” (Matt. 7:13-14 New Living Translation).

My goodness! This version makes things sound even worse than does the King James for those who choose the wide, broad path. What to do? Well, let’s just ignore and avoid these verses altogether. Blot them from our minds! Deny them! Don’t preach them! Don’t tell the undiscerning about them! That’s the “easy way” out. After all, the path to heaven is wide and ecumenical! Anyone who “knows about” Jesus can enter! Even Satan “knows about” Jesus, so he can enter, too! God is too merciful and wouldn’t condemn anyone, not even Satan himself in the long run!

Ladies and gentlemen, it’s hard to get into Heaven, any way you look at it, any version you choose, because too many folks are just not willing to do what the New Testament says to do. The Matt. 7:13-14 passage is not a part of the Change Movement’s favored, biblical repertoire, for it rings too close to home. The change agents avoid and deny Matt. 7:13-14, claiming that it is too “negative.” They would much rather focus on the Beatitudes of Matt. 5, claiming that the eight categories mentioned therein encompass virtually everyone: poor in spirit, meek, peacemakers, the persecuted, etc., etc. Something more “positive.” But with the positive also comes the negative, and Christ wasn’t about to hide from people the consequences of disobedience; hence Matt. 7:13-14, which reveals that FEW will ever find the Kingdom of Heaven, because most people will choose the easy, wide, and broad route instead.



 
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72.154.194.14

Re: Heaven IS Difficult to Obtain

March 1 2006, 10:31 AM 

Tools of The Godless

Occasionally we have to remind folks why this web site exist, because one of the tools of the Godless is confusion.

Today's church has been infiltrated by the Godless. (1)

Our mission is to warn you. Our mission is not to condemn those that use instrumental music, but to warn you that they will try to take over your church.

Never has a church been infiltrated and taken over by a non-instrumental group.

Their tools are the lie, confusion, and thievery.

Watch them as they tell you that you are the cause of division. Your old ways are outdated, and are the reasons for the death of the church.

Beware that these Godless impostors are among you. They pretend to pray with you, and preach from your pulpits.

They take advantage of the Christian's lack of knowledge about something that evil being present in the church.

They pretend to be your loving brother, while only seeking to take your soul.

Yes, there are those that have been duped by the Godless. We must warn you of both.

At first they will pretend to study with you, but it's only to compromise you.

Be Careful My Brother and Sister.

Their goal is apostasy of the Lords' Church.

As their tongues speak of love, unity, diverstiy, and the Great Commission, their actions show their true fruit.

(1) The Intentional Infiltration of the church by the Anti-Apostles
http://www.concernedmembers.com/editorials/takeover.htm




 
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Concerned Christian
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Re: Heaven IS Difficult to Obtain

March 8 2006, 1:03 AM 

How sad for you David. Because Christians continue to educate themselves they become your enemy and thus you must judge. I am praying that you soften your heart and look at what you are saying about fellow Christians. Remember that Satan is the enemy, not your brothers standing beside you.

This garbage about Fruity Loops and hate is so sad. Heaven, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are not hard to obtain we just make so many added rules like the Jews did/do that we make God something difficult to obtain. When Jesus was on the Earth the Jews had over 600 interpretations of the Law now they have 1,000's. They have made God Scary and hard to obtain. This is how we treat God...He came here in the flesh to take us home and we make it out to be a Checklist of things we must do. The fear on tis site is flat out scary. We hear arguments about salvaton being wrapped up in a single service on Sunday or knocking doors during the week. There is not one work that can save you or I! No one is perfect and the simplicity of the scriptures teach that we do not deserve the crown, but if we follow Him (I don't mean checklist religion) and share the Good News many souls can be saved.

Please turn your energy into something positive, like encouraging rather than discouraging. The efforts put forth on this site could be used in the mission field rather than talking horribly negative about people.

May God bring you peace.

 
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70.157.41.131

Re: Heaven IS Difficult to Obtain

March 8 2006, 10:30 AM 

You are putting words in my mouth.

I spoke of the Godless, not Christians.

If you had read the above referenced article, you would have learned that there are the Godless that have actually infiltrated the churches and other places.

I also spoke of the "duped". This could be Christians that have been fooled.

Generally, to be "duped" requires a lack of discernment.

At this point I am sory, but we don't know if you are one of the Godless, or one of those with a general lack of discernment.

With a little study I think we could find out.

 
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Concerned Christian
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70.182.0.5

Re: Heaven IS Difficult to Obtain

March 8 2006, 11:54 AM 

I did read the reference and I can clearly see what you are talking about. Education allowed me to no longer be fooled. Our heritage has some pretty weak arguments and they are now being exposed. I refuse to go back and fight points that have no relevance for me. Instruments, church attendance sealing my salvation, being excited in worship (Raising Holy Hands), Praise team (Multiple Song Leaders Rather than One), solos with Music is wrong, but a Prayer (which is a solo without Music) is OK. Just to name a few are of no interstes to me to go back to.

Our interpretations of Scripture not only in the Church of Christ, but denominationally wide have been intersting. Pick and choose theology if you will. For instance the Lord's Supper which we say can only be taken on Sunday or Jesus will be upset is ridiculous. We have overused Acts 20:7 and fail to continue to read beyond verse 7 Please continue to read 11. Sounds like on Monday they took it again. And if "Break Bread" is an idiom for the Lord's Supper then we should do it daily Acts 2:46.

It is arguments like this that are driving people away. The C of C and other churches act as if they have the perfect answers to everything, but our own arguments come back to haunt us. Being Free in Christ is truly a path I and lots of others are choosing to take. We love Jesus and what He has done for us and if that is truly apostate then I guess I will go to Hell with many...because as some keep telling me Broad is the Way, which means that if you have an instrument, communion on any day except Sunday, Sway in Worship(as Donnie Puts it), Having a Praise Team etc. then I am truly doomed.

As I have said over and over agian, what goes on in a church assembly is edification (I believe we agree) of one another and Worship. However everyday is Worship in how we live our lives. I try every day to be a Light to people just like you do, however I will no longer set limitations on God and make up rules He never said were a Heaven and Hell issue.

Keep studying I think you will see that God is not difficult to get to Know. He is not a God of Confusion.

 
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70.157.41.131

Re: Heaven IS Difficult to Obtain

March 8 2006, 1:33 PM 

If indeed you had read the article, you would have noticed
the Godless that have infiltrated the church planned to
use contemporary music to bring the church into apostasy.

So, since you are for contemporary music in the church, you and the Godless are proposing the same thing.

How do we tell you from the Godless?

 
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Concerned Christian
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70.177.30.24

Re: Heaven IS Difficult to Obtain

March 8 2006, 10:48 PM 

This is an exceprt from a post I made to Donnie in the "What Happened At Madison Part 10" that he did NOT put on.

Donnie "By the way...You are so presumptious to think that I am saying we have to have instruments in the Churches of Christ. I have said all along and will continue to say that I DO NOT believe it is a salvation issue and to continue to read into it is ludicrous. You hear someone say that instruments are not a salvation issue and you think that we are saying we MUST have them or else."

How is it Godless to have instruments? How does that honestly drive someone to Hell? I guess if you read the stuff that Sublett puts on this site it would scare you. Goat Heads with obscene you know what's etc. I do not understand this elementary theology anymore. I once did when I was a child, but now I just can't buy it or defend it anymore, nor can the majority of my age group. (By the way I am 33.) I go to an Acapella Church of Christ I just choose to not divide over things like this anymore with my friends that love Jesus which happen to go to a different Sign out front of their building.

If you think that I and others are Godless because I will not judge someone's Heart or Spirit on opinions or interpretations of Instruments that are not there then so be it.

You have to answer to God someday for what you are doing. This is where Grace will come into play!

 
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70.157.41.131

Re: Heaven IS Difficult to Obtain

March 9 2006, 12:10 PM 

Concerned Christian;

You are apparently unable or unwilling to carry on a
straight line conversation without creating confusion.

It's my opinion that you have had time to make your
points, and there comes a time when we have to call
wormwood wormwood.


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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The Child Can Accept; the Adult Cannot

March 9 2006, 1:06 PM 

Concerned Christian: "I do not understand this elementary theology anymore. I once did when I was a child, but now I just can't buy it or defend it anymore, nor can the majority of my age group. (By the way I am 33.)"

Dr. Crump: As Christ said, we must become like little children--humble and fully trusting Him at His Word--or we will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. What Christ has spelled out in the Gospels and to the apostolic writers we must trust like children, having faith to follow it as fully written. That means not adding anything to it, not taking anything from it. Such theology is definitely elementary as Christ intended. We must first become abased in earthly life to become exalted in eternity. The first shall be last and the last first.

Too often, once-faithful children grow up and attain a complex education which warps and ruins that elementary faith which they had as youths. This is not to say that higher education is not good in itself, but too often people fall prey to the liberal and agnostic opinions of biblical scholars and others who teach a doctrine different from the simplicity of the New Testament. Scholarship then supplants the elementary dictates of the New Testament, and that causes spiritual downfall. This is what separates the faithful from the apostate.

 
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4.152.183.110

ONE act can send you to hell!

March 8 2006, 12:19 PM 

Unless ALL of the Bible is WRONG then singing and clapping your OWN songs and claiming to lead the "paying audience" into the presence of God will not be forgiven now or for ever.

You know that it was the SPIRIT OF CHRIST Who informed the prophets and the prophets "rant" agaisnt MUSIC and connects it to the prostitutes and Sodomites who collected all of the people looking for love in all of the wrong places. (Ezek 33, etal).

So, God will come with ten thousand of his saints to GET YOU and the SPECIFIC sin was MUSIC used to seduce people into the presence of Satan or Lucifer or Zoe.

You may wanna take your chances that 100% of recorded literature is WRONG but condemning people who REFUSE TO BOW is part of the MARK of the LOCUSTS under Abaddon.

 
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: ONE act can send you to hell!

March 8 2006, 2:03 PM 

Jesus -- The Rock That Will Not Roll
Part 1 of 3
(An expose of Satan's Minstrels of Music)
by Lt. Col. Jack Mohr, AUS Ret.

"Every good free bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit...
Therefore by their fruits shall ye know them". - Matt. 7:18, 20

PRELUDE

Christian Youth and Parents, Have You Been
"Sucked in" by this Satanic Delusion?

"This know, that in the last days (of this age) perilous (dangerous) times shall Come.
For men (and women) will be lovers of their own selves - . Having a form of godliness,
but denying the power thereof: from such turn away". - 2 Timothy 3:1-5

Jesus Loves to Rock and Roll Or Does He?

http://www.scripturesforamerica.org/html2/jm0013a.htm

 
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4.152.159.30

Numbers don't lie but .......

February 27 2006, 6:54 PM 

You need the OLD STATS: We once had about 2.25 MILLION members. But, that was a bad count. When we moved back to Murfreesboro in 1980 we began working the membership list and removed those we were informed were DEAD when we made contact. If a person was baptized and then became a serial killer, when he is buried he claims to be a member of the church of Christ.

So what? My timetable based on what began about 1987 with the MUSICATING in the holy places would "prophesy" almost NO faithful church still VISIBLE and AUDIBLE about now. That MAY be the actual fact. As we have been able to inform people I can guarantee that lots of those with HELL SCARED INTO them for NOT tithing have fled.

1997 13,000 Congregations
2003 13,155 Congregations
2006 12,963 Congregations
That means a loss of 37 congregations--if you believe preacher's count.

That is about the number which have been INFILTRATED and DIVERTED by the Christian church pushing their UNITY MEETINGS using PLANTS to take the name off of the church. One of the posters can count about 20 of those in Texas which have gone instrumental.

If you believe the numbers--virtually impossible to get--then here are the numbers--if your numbers can be trusted.

1997 1,278,000 Members
2003 1,276,621 Members;
2006 1,265,844 Members
12156 That is less than 1% which is the way ALL institutions are going as the internet does a better job without CONFISCATING your children's health care. I don't know of one which CLOSED SHOP because of NOT doing music. Do you? Name it and we will check it out.

1997 was when I quit being counted and about the time that the Tulsa Workshop, the Unity Forums and Jubilee began OUTING the object of their mass meetings to sow MASSIVE DISCORD among peaceable churches of Christ. I would say that MOST churches signed onto the Shellyite etal heresy that the ROLE OF THE CHURCH IS TO WORSHIP. When even "conservative" churches adopted the Howard (vineyard) NEW STYLE PRAISE SINGING I watched lots of people quit attending. I am sure that the Shellyite LOCATED MISSIONARY kicked lots of honest preachers out of business and church planting stopped.

So, if I have a hundred lambs and YOU steal 10 of them I suppose you would justify your new POSTMODERN definition of lying and say that YOU stole them because I wasn't getting the most WORK PRODUCT out of them.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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Second-Thought Stats

February 28 2006, 12:08 AM 

Well, it looks like CC found the time and the energy to show that indeed the c of C is dwindling, something he initially wasn't willing or able to do. Of course, I did say that I would take him at his word about the c of C without statistics. I congratulate him in showing that this faith is dropping (CC would say "dying"). So I guess we're just gonna have to pack up and leave and go over to the denominations that pick and choose what they'll follow in the NT and that pack 'em in with the entertainment. After all, folks ARE flocking to the Purpose-Driven churches in droves where they have their "freedom." Let me muse on this a bit, and I'll get back...

...I'm back. Naw, I'll hold on to the true faith and trust the NT in its prediction that as the end of time draws closer and closer, there will be more and more people falling away from the true faith and flocking as apostates to those false teachers who deceive folks with pleasant words and fair speech. I'd say the Change Movement is one good source for fair speech, false teaching, and deception. Christ advised us to observe the times for signs of the end. We don't know the EXACT day or hour, but we can see when things are gradually falling into place as per NT predictions.

 
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4.152.159.30

Now, the background, to the MARK of the Beasties.

February 27 2006, 5:55 PM 

Amazed continued: We showed you what the SPIRITUAL EYE sees when the thinglings MOUNT the podium. Here is some of the background so maybe you, too, will want to flee Babylon or be MARKED by the BEAST who is also known as Eve or Zoe the female instructing principle. Paul knew more about Eve than we do if we have been sung into illiteracy: trust him.

"The term 'ca-na-na-um' was used by the inhabitants as early as 3500 BC (Aubet). The Hebrew "cana'ani" meant merchant, but the original meaning may have come from Akkadian kinahhu - red-colored wool, which may have in turn given their descendents the name Phoenician.
    Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts. Zec.14:21
How we gonna solve that problem since the invasion of the BODY SNATCHERS? Well, Revelation 18 defines the RETURN of the forskin collecort MOTHER. In 18:22 we see that woe promounced on rhetorical speakers, singers and musicians understanding that the WHEEL speaks a "musical sound" and that concubines or prostitutes were the GRINDERS, they too will have to quit bumping and grinding in the SCHOOL ROOM. Jesus solves the problem: when the HAREM OF THE GODS or the SECTARIAN singers or musicians COME IN then in verse 19 Jesus removes His LAMPSTAND or LAMPS of the seven SPIRITS which are not wee little "forest spirits" but forms of Divine knowledge you NEED In the school house.

You may have missed Jesus affirming that the CLERGY were of the SEED of Abraham but we know that they were NOT of Isaac. Therefore, the RELIGIOUS FUNCTIONARIES have always ben ARABS. Arab means AMBUSH.
    Kenaaniy (h3669) ken-ah-an-ee'; patrial from 3667; a Kenaanite or inhabitant of Kenaan; by impl. a pedlar (the Canaanites standing for their neighbors the Ishmaelites, who conducted mercantile caravans): - Canaanite, merchant, trafficker.

    Kenaan (g3667) ken-ah'-an; from 3665; humiliated; Kenaan, a son of Ham; also the country inhabited by him: - Canaan, merchant, traffick.

    Kana (h3665) kaw-nah'; a prim. root; prop. to bend the knee; hence to humiliate, vanquish: - bring down (low), into subjection, under, humble (self), subdue.
Central to the Semitic notion of deity is El, the old fatherly creator god and his consort, Athirat or Asherah. "Both were primordial beings, they had been there always." El, whose name simply meant 'god' was the creator and procreator, overseer of conception, who sired the gods, thus being also called 'Bull El' in continuity with the ancient bull god of fertility. Asherah and El thus form a creation hieros-gamos of male and female, representing the bull and the earth goddess we see emerging from the ancient continuum at Catal Huyuk. El is supposed to have gone out to sea and asked two Goddesses, one presumably being Athirat and the other possibly Anath to choose between being his spouses and being his daughters.
    They chose the former. Their offspring are Shaher and Shalem, the morning and evening stars, from which Lucifer, the light-bearer, takes his name.
Lucifer, of course, in later incarnations is Sophia-Zoe.

In the Canaanite myth, a new and possibly Akkadian outsider, whose name is Ba'al Haddad or Lord enters the situation in hated competition with Asherah and her children by El. He is a young, warlike god of wind and thunderstorms and thus fertility itself. Unlike El, he is not judicious, frequently figuring in situations from which he must be saved. In this respect he displays a significant parallel to Dumuzi (Tammuz) among the Mesopotamians, which will prove to be of significance. He also has the hideous attribute of devouring his own children, consistent with infanticide practices of several semitic patron gods. See Tammuz worship by the women at Jerusalem

Initially Ba'al and Anat are members of El's court. Ba'al attacks El by surprise and castrates him, assuming the power of his fertility. In effect, Ba'al becomes the central iINTERMEDIARY of paternal cosmic order ... "it is Ba'al's responsibility to ensure El's benevolent intention is realized", but he does not replace the primal creative power of El.


Now, they pronounce Jesus Christ incompetent to preserve His Word and we "gonna partner with God to get a new supply." They also promise to lead you into the presence of God which means that they ARE standing in the Most Holy Place claiming to BE God.

"Anath was fertilized by the blood of men, rather than semen, because her worship dated all the way back to the neolithic, when fatherhood was unknown and blood was considered the only substance which could transmit life.
    Hecatombs of [100] men seem to have been sacrificed to Anath when her image was reddened with rouge and henna for the occasion. Like the Lady of the Serpent Skirt,

    Anath hung the shorn penises of her victims on her goatskin apron or aegis." "Anath's capacity to curse and kill made even the Heavenly Father afraid of her. When El seemed reluctant to do her bidding, she threatened to smash his head and cover his grey hair and beard with gore. He hastily gave her everything she asked, saying 'Whoever hinders thee will be crushed' " (Walker 30).
If you do the ANTIPHONAL response as a kind of "battle of singing parts" then you are singing in the style of ANAH. That was the STYLE of musical MOCKING by which the CANAANITES or KENITES whol always controlled the Temple (a like the nation's Mega-church where God knew they wanted to WORSHIP like the nations).

In the Babylonian Tablets this is Inanna who got Ea--the patron of music--and stole the ME which gave her the power of the Eldership, making music and sexual perversion.

http://www.piney.com/BabEaGifts.html

Mark the spot: you are there.

"The papacy also continued the practice of creating castratos (a cappella worship Leaders who were boys castrated before puberty to keep their singing voices high-pitched) for their own entertainment, long after it had fallen in disfavor throughout Italy."

"Into this artificial world came the castrati, who had first gained a place in Italian churches for their 'angelic' voices.
    Castratos are said to have been the world's first superstars, because of the great sums paid to them for their singing, and scheduled engagements that took them to cities across Europe, to please their enthusiastic followers.
"How can we hear their music today, since we have no more castratos to listen to? Well, during the current renaissance in Baroque music, some castrato roles have been carefully recreated by counter-tenors also known as male altos or sopranos. Other musical parts are sung by women who use a natural alto or soprano range,
    but adopt a style which attempts to make the music sound
    appropriately 'masculine',at least for male roles.

There is much debate as to which is better--but keeping in mind the fact that most early composers wrote 'trouser' roles for women to sing, and that castratos frequently presented women's roles, especially in their youth, it would seem that gender stretching is an original part of this music, and perhaps one reason for its continuing dramatic impact."


When you HEAR this taking place in the ekklesia or school of Christ and His Word, you know that some FEMALE "Goddess" is behind the scene wearing a skirt of shorn penesis.

 
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PPB
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70.116.84.97

Re: Now, the background, to the MARK of the Beasties.

March 1 2006, 9:32 PM 

CC,

By the way, your comment about tracks the other day really bothered me. Who learns from a track? Is that what these "enlightened" churches are now doing? Do you guys study books instead of the actual Bible?

Please be careful about throwing around your "biblical training" on this site. You are only one of many who have studied theology at college, so we aren't impressed. In fact, I have to admit that I am horrified at the lack of basic biblical understanding I see in the younger college grads. It's so sad to see that they can't interpret the bible by themselves and must rely on their professors' opinions. Do they not teach Greek and Hebrew anymore? Is it just one or two classes? What has changed?

Let's keep this simple for those that aren't comfortable with all the ins and outs of understanding a foreign language...

"Because strait is the gate" -
- strait (stenos, adj)- desciption meaning narrow, small
gate (pule)noun,fem - an entrance or opening to a city or palace, metaphorically relates to entry into heaven.
- because (hoti) demonstrative conjunction - the joining of two verbs or sayings (strait is the gate & narrow is the way)

"and narrow is the way," -
- Narrow (thlibo) - condensed, squeezed, compressed, thin ....
- Way (hodos) - literally means path, metaphorically means behavior/conduct

"which leadeth unto life" -
- leadeth (apago) - as a verb it means to lead away to a certain end
- life (zoe) - absolute fullness of life - to last forever
metaphorically means an everlasting state of being with God

"and few there be that find it" -
- few (oligos, adj) meaning few, little, small number
- and (kai, conj) cumulative events, 1 + 1 = 2
- find (heurisko, v) present/active - to find, discover, seek, etc. As an active verb, it clearly indicates one must take action.
- it (autos) - pronoun, demonstrative - relating back to the word life.

*************

Let's give this an intellectual review and not an OPINION. Take away your preconceived notions and read the sentence as it was written. Read it in its simple version without relying on someone else's interpretation:

    BECAUSE narrow is the entry and thin is the path which leads to everlasting life with God
    AND only a small number there are that will seek and discover that everlasting life.


**************

Did I miss something here? I don't see anything here that tells me that lot's of people will find everlasting life or fullness of life. No one's arguing that God doesn't want everyone to make it, of course he does and he says so. But he also states that he knows it isn't going to happen. He already knows what will be.

Do you remember how he destroyed entire cities? The flood? How many survived that onslaught? Many? No...8. 8 People!!! God hasn't changed in his demand to be obeyed - only how we obey him has changed (Old Law vs. Christ's death). He warned us that even though he love us, he is also a vengeful and jealous God. It amazes me how people seem to forget this side of God and only see him as one-dimensional. He is both! Loving and forgiving to those that obey his commands, vengeful to those that do not. I do not lessen his power and authority as your interpretation tries to do.

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 7:21 NOT EVERY ONE that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, SHALL ENTER into the kingdom of HEAVEN; but he that DOETH THE WILL of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, ye that work iniquity.



 
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allen coffman
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71.226.188.9

And the gate is...

March 1 2006, 11:22 PM 

Suppose the gate is surrender to Jesus Christ as Lord and not doctrinal perfection?

That might give us too much and common and take away too much of our control.

God's will is good you guys. And, it takes the supernatual incarnation of His Spirit into a humble, child-like and contrite heart to be conformed to it. I pray for much more of all of these qualities in the American church.

allen

 
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PPB
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70.116.84.97

Re: And the gate is...

March 2 2006, 7:23 PM 

Allen,

Your view would make the rest of the sentence null and void, wouldn't it? Much less the verse directly before it. If all it takes is surrendering to Christ without obedience, then the gate would be awfully wide. Why even warn us of the narrowness? Do you really think that God just put in that verse for the fun of it? Maybe he wanted to tease us? Common sense needs to come into play here at some point guys, does it not? You are aware that "few" would not correlate to the number of people that have surrendered to Christ, but have rejected some of his Father's commands (like some of the posters here)?

By the way, if I REALLY and TRULY SURRENDER to Christ, then would I not FEEL OBLIGATED to abide by his request to follow ALL his Father's commandments? I mean, true love is total acceptance, is it not? Oops, better throw this verse out with the "fear God" ones, since God didn't really mean for us to actually believe those verses. Is there some secret code that tells me which ones I'm supposed to obey and which ones I should disregard?

Trying to find a way around such a straight forward and simple sentence takes a lot of effort. Wouldn't it just be easier to take God at face value and listen to His inspired word? Christ said few would find eternal life...I didn't say it nor did anyone on this site. We didn't make it up and we didn't twist it around. It's simple Greek grammar that translates into simple English grammar. I didn't see any OR's or Maybe's that would give us an option. But then again, I'm always amazed at how some posters still find a way to justify their OPINION which they cannot back up scripturally or grammatically.

Hey, if you think you can play such games with your soul, okay. Russian Roulette anyone?

If you feel like arguing with Christ, go ahead. I'll sit this one out.



 
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allen coffman
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71.226.188.9

Re: And the gate is...

March 2 2006, 11:32 PM 

PPB,

My experience has been that few are interested in surrendering to Christ. So, few have entered the gate.

But, I have been blessed beyond my understanding and imagination by trusting Him to lead me in His will. I study His word, spend time in prayer, sit in quiet with Him, worship Him with all my heart and serve Him as He opens my eyes to see where He leads. It is a great life that is free from fear, free from guilt, free from second guessing, free from worry, free from the need to control and free from condemnation. I know I do not have it all figured out but I do know God's way is right and good. I am growing in His ways everyday. I trust God to teach me. And, I know, God has asked me to teach others. 1. I want to because He has been so good to me- I have to share the blessing. 2. I want to be obedient because He commanded me to.

I know it is difficult to communicate on a message board where our lives do not give a back drop to our words. But, I hear you saying you are proud that you are one of the few who will make it because you feel your rare and exceptional doctrinal perfection justifies your ticket through the gate. It reminds me of 1 Chorinthians 1

1 Corinthians 1:18-31
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[a]
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."[b]

allen

 
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Judge Knott
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199.227.205.202

There is no worship in music

March 3 2006, 2:55 PM 

"It appears never to occur to the multitudes who throng the assemblies to hear instruments, sweet voices and artistic melodies, that there is no worship in it, or, at least, divine worship. All that can be heard in a theater,
in a museum, or less godly places, where there is certainly no worship. There is no worship in music, in itself.

There is power in it, enchantment, but as easily associated with vice as virtue, with cruelty as with beneficence, with corruption as purity.

We find music where there are no moral qualities, either good or bad —a mere
secular entertainment."
The Gospel Preacher: a book of 21 Sermons, by Benjamin Franklin, vol 2, Gospel Light Publishing Co., Delight Arkansas 71940

 
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Judge Knott
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199.227.205.202

There is no worship in music (instrumental)

March 4 2006, 7:16 AM 

1.)Singing is commanded in the words, “Singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” It is the precise thing to be done. It is not a command to perform music, either vocal or instrumental. The music is only a secondary matter, and incidental, and not the thing commanded. The singing is the precise thing commanded. The Apostle says, “And even things without life, giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped. For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle ? So likewise you, except you utter with the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? For you shall speak into the air.”-l Corinthians xiv. 7-9. Again, a little further on he says, I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than you all, yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.” Then the Apostle is here speaking of spiritual gifts, but showing the importance of being understood in the assembly.

In the midst of this he says, "What then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.” The singing in worship is no mere exercise in music, or musical display, but singing in obedience to the divine command; to please God; to do his will; and is to be with the spirit and the understanding: and to be understood by the congregation, as we shall see more fully presently.

2.) We are to teach one another in singing. This singing is not for music, a musical entertainment, amusement, or attraction, but one method of teaching one another, in the church, in worship; and, therefore, must have teaching in it and the words must be sung so that they can be understood, or they can teach nothing. This divine appointment has been almost wholly subverted, and this important method of teaching set aside by a variety of pieces that have no teaching in them; the merest vapor ever put into poetry; the most insipid trash ever uttered, and sung purely for music, without ever thinking of the meaning of the words, or whether they have any meaning. No wonder the people are in ignorance, when the very means God has ordained for teacfiing is thus subverted. But to complete the farce an instrument is brought in, as if the determination was that the appointment of God, to teach one another in singing, should be defeated by musical sounds, that utter no words, and confuse the ear, so that not one word of five can be caught at all! Who is taught in the songs where they use an organ? Who listens to it with the idea of being taught? No one. Not a spiritual idea is imparted in a month. Still, they say, “What harm is it?"


Taken from:The Gospel Preacher: a book of 21 Sermons, by Benjamin Franklin, vol 2, Gospel Light Publishing Co., Delight Arkansas 71940


 
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PPB
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70.116.84.97

Re: There is no worship in music (instrumental)

March 4 2006, 5:02 PM 

Judge Knott....catchy title.

Thanks for the info from Benjamin Franklin (the preacher, not the founding father of our nation). Lot's of good info in his writings. Drew's blog also refers to this site. (dkizer.blogspot.com)

 
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PPB
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70.116.84.97

Re: And the gate is...

March 4 2006, 4:29 PM 

Again Allen, you jump to conclusions and do so in a very unChristian manner.

Unlike your assumption above, I do not think I am special or better than others. I am humbled that God would even take a second of his time to think of me. I am humbled that my prayers to God have opened my eyes to his Word, the path to salvation. I am thankful and grateful that he heard my pleas and believed I was sincere in my search. I am so glad, that I now must show others his Word and his COMMANDS so that they may search and find the path. My wish is for everyone to go to Heaven. He is so powerful that I have FAITH that the Bible was written for ALL generations to hear and believe in. That his word hasn't weakened over the centuries nor has his vengeance on those who do NOT follow his complete and holy Word.

He has given all of us a way to live with him in eternity if we follow his Word. Failing to follow his ENTIRE word does mean that I will not be with him in eternity. My only fear is when I knowingly fail to obey him. As long as I am continually growing in knowledge of Him and his Word, teaching HIS CORRECT and FULL word to others, rebuking those who teach false doctrine, loving and glorifying him, remaining full in faith, and making my light shine so as not to be a stumbling block to others, I have no fear. I also have no feeling of superiority. Your words above truly break my heart as they fail to acknowledge God's desires.

As for condimnation. That is a cop-out of the lowest kind. Wouldn't it be just grand to sit back and think "I have no other duty to God than to just love him...yeah me!" But that's not what the Lord taught us or commanded us to do. We are to be ever vigilant for false doctrine and false teachers, we are to reprimand those that are unChristian in behavior and teachings, we are to rebuke and turn-away from those who refuse to abide by his commands. THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENTS.

Unlike how your posting comes across, I'm not arrogant and self-satisfied enough to think I'm above his COMPLETE word. I do not remove the importantance of "certain verses" because I am more intellectual than those that came before me. I do not add or take away from God's word because I think I "know better". That is what you just did in your last posting. You NEVER mentioned God's commands or wants or needs.

That is the difference between you and I. Read back over our postings. Mine rely on scriptures. Not twisting them, just reading them as simple grammatical sentences, incorporating the verses before and after for the full story. Your comments are based on YOUR feelings and opinions of what YOU think the scriptures really mean. In fact, you refuse to address many scriptures and come back with ones you think refute the verse. That implies that God is full of contradictions.

The difference between you and I is simple. I don't go by my personal wants and needs when determining what God wants me to believe and do. I believe that God only asked one thing of me to "show myself approved" - Total belief in Him and His Word. All of it.

So, which one of us is really listening to God?

 
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Concerned Christian
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70.182.0.5

Re: Now, the background, to the MARK of the Beasties.

March 6 2006, 4:37 PM 

Sorry for my absence...I was out knocking on doors this weekend (that "church growth scheme" again) helping spread the message of Jesus

PPB,

You talk about simple English and yet you do not listen to what I said without getting worked up and responding with anger. Here is what I said about the Tract thing. "Please give YOUR "verifiable" evidence before you come back with a tract from your foyer." I said nothing about me getting my information from a tract. This is the c of C way. Get your answers from these tracts. Simple English and you made it into something I did not say. Hummmmm, what else do you do with simple English? I also mentioned that the church assembly "does not seal my salvation" and you blew up into a dimension of unknown. Please read before you judge what I said. Church assembly does not seal my salvation anymore that it does yours. You need to realize that the Christian walk does not go on only in the sanctuary. Once again Simple English...etc.

I am done with you people. I know there will continue to be anger and venom, but like I said before on numerous occasions, you people make Heaven difficult to obtain, PPB and others constantly show there ignorance every time they touch a keyboard and the battle is lost. The freedom of Christ is not to be abused so that "Grace May Abound" it is about being excited about Jesus (smiling, swaying, raising hands) and making church (assembly) not always be the focus and the means to Heaven, but spread the saving grace of Jesus.

I was visiting with a friend of mine that works at a private Christian High School and he told me that the school board wants more "change agents" the branch of the "Old Church of Christ" is on Life Support and they are gladly seeing the anger and venom leave. You see as you all have been so ugly and pushy and make instruments be on the same level as orgies (sex games) and idol worship in church, it has been slowly driving people away.

Once Again, "God does NOT want people to go to Hell. He established a Law for people to understand boundaries. He then brought the Law of Christ which is Grace Driven. No one is perfect, and when clothed in Christ's Blood I am confident that I am going to Heaven. Your comments remind me of class I was teaching recently. We had a few "crispers" like you that were not sure if they were going to heaven they just "Hoped" that they were going to Heaven. 50/50 chance? WOW! How do people not have confidence? That is the Fear Factor that has been engrained into Christians Heads for years! It amazes me how we cannot have the confidence that by Following Christ we will win! We are promised that!

There is no way any of us deserve Heaven, which is why He sent Jesus here to save us. I guess trying to undo 40-50-60+ years of theology are hard for some to do."

In Closing: Moderators, I am shocked at this website, letting a WOMAN teach over men. I thought we were to follow the Bible to the "Letter." I guess you are change agents as well, letting her have an opinion and teach MEN.


For the Moderators and PPB http://www.theophilus.org/lawyers.html

The Church Shrinking Schemers are coming, the Church Shrinking Schemers are coming!!!

Not so Respectfully Yours,

Fritz Freedom

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.19.64.52

RE: Now, the Background, etc. (by CC, March 6)

March 7 2006, 12:07 PM 

CC: "Sorry for my absence...I was out knocking on doors this weekend (that "church growth scheme" again) helping spread the message of Jesus ."

Dr. Crump: Rhetorical question: Is this statement an example of Matt. 5:14-16 KJV, or is it an example of Matt. 6:1-4 KJV?

Learn from the example of a previous poster. A year or so ago, one self-righteous guy often posted messages which blew his horn from the highest mountaintops. He made it quite clear with statements such as, "I go out into the highways and byways, and I bring them in!" Then he would add, "How many people have you brought to Christ? Have you ever brought anyone to Christ?" This guy had used "good works" to laud himself over others, as the Pharisee in the parable had done with the publican in Luke 18:9-14 KJV. Yet what treasure he had initially laid up for himself in heaven by "bringing people to Christ" had been utterly squandered on his monstrously inflated ego.

Bottom line: There's a fine line between being a "shining light" and "blowing one's horn." A very fine line.

 
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(no login)
4.152.99.173

For CHRIS who wants us to PLUCK

March 5 2006, 12:13 PM 

    Chris Lucian in Parasites wrote "It is impossible to pipe without a pipe or to PSALLEIN without a lyre or to ride without a horse." (Approx 160AD)

    With the added ATTIC words

    "..for it is impossible to pipe [aulein] without a pipe [auloon] or to STRUM [psallein] without a lyre [luras], or to ride [ippeuein] without a horse [ippou]..."

Psallo means to PLUCK with the FINGERS and NOT with a plectrum: not guitar picks, no organs, drums and no NOTHING but PLUCKING with your FINGERS.
    "The psaltery (psalterion, saltere, sauterie, Psalterium, Psalter, salterio) is an ancient intstrument seen in many forms. Early versions were simply a wooden board with gut strings stretched between pegs. The strings were plucked with fingers or by plectra (the name might have DERIVED from the Greek psallein meaning plucked with fingers).

    According to Heredotus, Cyrus was told how to turn warriors into women:

    and make them bring up their sons to cithern-playing (Kitharizein), singing (psallein), and shop-keeping (Hucksterism). So wilt thou soon see them become women instead of men,

I think Chris (?) from New South Wales (?) has been raiding Tom Burgess' etal garbage can? Lucian was showing how to play the FLUTE in order to FLEECE the fat heads and simpletons. How do you DO that? Well, in all of the Pagan ORACLES they used EMASCULATED MALES (they went all the way according to Paul) as the "musical worship ministers." NO, NO, NO EXCEPTION. All of Burgess etal PROOF TEXT MARKS the musicators as "males PLUCKING the harp string to PLUCK a young male emasculated or even sex changed." They used it like Chris probably does: to PUT FORCE into the ungodly LAW OF GIVING.

Lucian's use of instrumental music is in connection with the continuing pagan fertility rituals where wine, women and song with instruments "strummed up" the dead "gods" to come to them in an intimate way in charismatic ecstasy. "In Lucian of Samosata's Dialogues of a Courtesan we hear almost exclusively of women musicians and singers." The king of Tyre as the agent of the female or bisexual Lucifer gained his/her customers through literal music. Males who PERFORMED were, we are told, "either drunks or perverts." Only MALES performed as FEMALES in the pagan temples.

HERE'S WHAT LUCIAN SAID:
    "Sponging" is the superior art and "the sponger has no ulterior object; occupation and pre-occupation are for him one and the same." However,

    "Other arts, again, are useless to their professor unless he has his plant;


    you cannot PLAY the flute if you have not one to play;
    lyrical music requires a LYRE,
    horsemanship a HORSE.


    But of ours (sponging) one of the excellences and conveniences is that no instrument is required for its exercise. The Parasite, 17. Translated by H. W. and F. G. Fowler, Vol III, 1905
Attic - The language of Lucian. The Britannica
    Attic was the ancient Greek dialect that was the language of ancient Athens. Its closest relative was the Ionic dialect of Euboea. With the ascendance of the Athenian empire in the course of the 5th century BC, Attic became the most prestigious of the Greek dialects and as a result was adopted later as

      the standard language by the Macedonian kings. Moreover, it became in Hellenistic times the language of the Macedonian rulers in the Middle East and Egypt.

      This later phase of Attic is called Koine, a dialect common to all Greeks.

    In literature, Attic is the dialect of Athenian comedy and, interspersed with Doric LYRIC (from lyre) elements, of tragedy. In the second half of the 5th century BC, it also became the dialect of Greek prose, not only for such Athenian writers as Thucydides, Xenophon, Plato, Lysias, Isocrates, and Demosthenes but also for foreigners such as the orator and Sophist Gorgias of Leontini (Sicily).

      During the Roman period, prose writers such as Plutarch and LUCIAN were Atticists:

      they preferred to use the classical Attic dialect of the 5th and 4th centuries BC, rather than the spoken Koine of their own time.
Well, it really doesn't matter. Lucian was showing how to FLEECE the fat heads and simpletons with INSTRUMENTS. He proves that only PERVERTED "musical worship ministers" performed (double duty). He DOES NO say that a PSALM demands an INSTRUMENT. He said: you cannot PLUCK unless you have something to PLUCK.

You CANNOT use Lucian without CONFESSING that you INTEND to use music to PLUCK the fleece from the FAT HEADS, SIMPLETONS and especially WIDOWS on wellfare.

Probably no one but Burgess (and I) have plowed through the literature to find forms of PSALLO. However, Burgess is AFFLICTED with an ungodly TILT and perverts all of the writers by NOT using the BEFORE and AFTER quotation. He might find that Philip chided his son Alexander the Great for being TOO talented at Plucking the harp knowing that he was seducing a young boy. Alexander died of a STRANGE disease.

All of the other "quoted" resources are used OUT OF CONTEXT which has to be DELIBERATE. Watch this page for more.

 
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Chris
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61.6.35.179

Psallo

March 5 2006, 7:47 PM 

Ken,

I wonder how you managed to reply to my message without it being posted by the moderators. Are you one of the moderators?

I have a great deal of respect for your ability to do research but do you have to be rude? You said 'garbage can' of Tom Burgess. Perhaps you are also referring to Arndt & Gingrich's work 'A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature' as garbage can too for Lucian was mentioned in page 891.

It would be good if we could discuss issues with Christian love.



 
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Ken
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4.152.183.77

Posted above

March 5 2006, 9:27 PM 

Chris, you posted ABOVE. Sorry, I don't have any patience with people who just repeat, repeat and repeat.

The argument is that PSALLO meant to play an instrument AFTER Paul.

Lucian of Samosata wrote in ATTIC GREEK and not Koine.

Therefore, Lucian was speaking as an ATTIC speaker and he was from Syria.

Lucian and ALL people who speak of PSALLO meaning PLUCK as in plucking a HARP STRING always connect it to older males plucking a harp to seduce a young boy or some other act of prostitution or perversion.

It doesn't matter who quotes Lucian you cannot have him speaking a form of GREEK a hundred years or so after Paul.

Psallo NEVER means to play an instrument, much less does it mean SING and PLAY and name an instrument.

The word PLAY is a fairly simple word. You can play on Broadway, play basketball of play a harp. That you can PLAY a harp can never be used to MEAN that PLAY means "play a harp."

Psallo NEVER means PLAY A HARP: it means pluck WITH THE FINGERS and NEVER with a plectrum. You will never see anyone PLUCKING an instrument made for the plectrum. You can never find PSALLO meaning to PLUCK a flute with your fingers. Psallo or PLUCK has absolutely NO more musical meaning than the word PLAY. The word ABSOLUTELY excludes anything you are apt do do as MAKING MUSIC when you are supposed to be letting Jesus do the teaching. After all, it is HIS school of the Bible and you cannot even hallucinate a MUSICAL component to the synagogue or ekklesia.

All of these "quotations" are--as far as I have been able to do THEIR work and chase them down--are deliberate lies. If they are ignorant lies and people get paid to destroy churches then not even ignorance will save them.

When you are trying to DEFEAT those who have never used instruments and will not BOW TO BAAL you should never quote one of the INSTRUMENTAL writers unless they point you to a DOCUMENT. Tom Burgess and his imitators QUOTES from actual documents but he IS VERY SELECTIVE. I have reviewed his book and posted THE REST OF THE STORY to prove that he is just lying because he MUST have had the documents to PICK from and left out what REPUDIATES every argument he makes and others repeat.

 
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(no login)
4.152.183.77

CHRIS # TWO. Don't miss #1. I will answer most or all.

March 5 2006, 8:04 PM 

CHRIS OR JACK HOLT PART TWO

A Psalm is defined exactly the way a SONG is defined: The HUMAN VOICE is always the FIRST INSTRUMENT OF CHOICE. A song is NEVER accompanied with a musical instrument unless that instrument is NAMED.

It is a poem which can be performed with
    The human voice as an instrument
    A harp
    Or other instrument.
Furthermore, a poem can be READ or RECITED. The word used in the Song of Moses uses the word RECITE and Hebrew cantillation meant to SPEAK which is not musical.
    Chris or Jack Holt Gregory of Nyssa in Ps. c.3 (this is not 100:3, but chapter three on the headings on the psalms):

    "A psalm is singing which is effected with the aid of instrumental music."

Well, this quotation has no REFERENCE so it has no honest value in PROVING anything. Psalm is a GREEK word and not a Hebrew word. Hebrew would read PRAISE. Now, we know that no instrument inheres in the word HALAL unless one is named. Halal means to BOAST or "make yourself vile" and is the ROOT word for LUCIFER. That is because these are not WORSHIP songs but WARRIOR'S CHANTS.

The word Psalmos means to TWITCH with the fingers and has NO meaning other than with the PSALTERY or harp to make A LOUD CRUSING NOISE and not MUSIC. If you TWITCH a harp string then you still may NOT be making music. If you TWITCH or PLUCK a hair of a head and make it "twang" the word DOES NOT mean to make music. The word of itself NEVER MEANS to play a harp although it you pluck a harp then you must TELL what is to be PLUCKED. It might be the pubic hair of the young "ministers of the gods" seduced by males PLUCKING the harp string.

The Psaltery has the same meaning as the Familiar Spirit of the Witch of Endor or the SOUNDING GONGS of 1 Cor 13:1.
    Nebel (h5035) neh'-bel; from 5034; a skin- bag for liquids (from collapsing when empty); hence a vase (as similar in shape when full); also a lyre (as having a body of like form): - bottle, pitcher, psaltery, vessel, viol

    Nabel (h5034) naw-bale'; to wilt; generally to fall away, fail, faint; figurative: to be foolish or morally wicked; to despise, disgrace: - disgrace, dishonour, lightly esteem, fade (away, - ing), fall (down, -ling, off), do foolishly, come to nought, surely, make vile, wither..

Whether the quotation is FABRICATED or not Gregory would NEVER suggest instruments in CHANTING the Psalms which was most often done in private groups.

Gregory sounds much like Lucian of Samosata in saying:

"8 . Now since man is a rational animal, the instrument of his body must be made suitable for the use of reason; as you may see musicians producing their music according to the form of their instruments, and not piping with harps nor harping upon flutes,
    so it must needs be that the organization of these instruments of ours should be adapted for reason, that when struck by the vocal organs it might be able to sound properly for the use of words.
For this reason the hands were attached to the body; for though we can count up very many uses in daily life for which these skilfully contrived and helpful instruments, our hands, that easily follow every art and every operation, alike in war and peace , are serviceable, yet nature added them to our body pre-eminently for the sake of reason.

2. And as some skilled musician, who may have been deprived by some affection of his own voice, and yet wish to make his skill known,
    might make melody with voices of others,
    and publish his art by the aid of flutes or of the lyre,

    so also the human mind being a discoverer of all sorts of conceptions, seeing that it is unable, by the mere soul, to reveal to those who hear by bodily senses the motions of its understanding, touches, like some skilful composer,

    these animated instruments, and makes known its hidden thoughts by means of the sound produced upon them.
3. Now the music of the human instrument is a SORT of compound of flute and lyre,
    sounding together in combination as in a concerted piece of music.

    For the breath, as it is forced up from the air-receiving vessels through the windpipe, when the speaker's impulse to utterance attunes the harmony to sound, and as it strikes against the internal protuberances which divide this flute-like passage in a circular arrangement, imitates in a way the sound uttered through a flute, being driven round and round by the membranous projections.
But the palate receives the sound from below in its own concavity, and dividing the sound by the two passages that extend to the nostrils, and by the cartilages about the perforated bone, as it were by some scaly protuberance, makes its resonance louder; while the cheek, the tongue, the mechanism of the pharynx by which the chin is relaxed when drawn in,
    and tightened when extended to a point-all these in many different ways answer to the motion of the plectrum upon the strings, varying very quickly, as occasion requires, the arrangement of the tones; and the opening and closing of the lips has the same effect as players produce when they check the breath of the flute with their fingers according to the measure of the tune.
X. That the Mind Works by Means of the Senses.

1. As the mind then produces the music of reason by means of our instrumental construction, we are born rational, while, as I think, we should not have had the gift of reason if we had had to employ our LIPS to supply the need of the body-the heavy and toilsome part of the task of providing food. As things are, however, our hands appropriate this ministration to themselves, and leave the mouth available for the service of reason.

2 . The operation of the instrument , however, is twofold; one for the production of sound, the other for the reception of concepts from without;
    and the one faculty does not blend with the other, but abides in the operation for which it was appointed by nature,

    not interfering with its neighbour either by the sense of hearing undertaking to speak, or by the speech undertaking to hear; for the latter is always uttering something, while the ear, as Solomon somewhere says, is not filled with continual hearing
9. Again, as a musician, when he touches with the plectrum the slackened strings of a lyre, brings out no orderly melody (for that which is not stretched will not sound), but his hand frequently moves skilfully, bringing the plectrum to the position of the notes so far as place is concerned, yet there is no sound, except that he produces by the vibration of the strings a sort of uncertain and indistinct hum;
    so in sleep the mechanism of the senses being relaxed, the artist is either quite inactive, if the instrument is completely relaxed by satiety or heaviness; or will act slackly and faintly, if the instrument of the senses does not fully admit of the exercise of its art."
If I wanted to be an honest preacher I would use Gregory and EVERYONE ELSE to prove that instruments MUST NOT be used IN CHURCH. I don't believe that anyone who sets out to deliberately SOW DISCORD just so they can musicate can handle the Word of God with minimal honesty.

 
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Chris
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61.6.116.168

Psallo

March 5 2006, 10:26 PM 

Ken,

Thank you for your reply.

I believe for your reply to be meaningful my message should be posted on the message board first. How else are readers to know what you are replying to? BTW, I do not see any reasons why the moderators could not post my message on the board. There is nothing vulgar or crude contained therein, only quotes from Early Church Fathers and Lucian.

As for the Early Church Fathers’ quotes, I am sure you have the book by Trench ‘Synonyms of the New Testament’. It can be found on page 296.

Chris

I am Chris, NOT Jack Holt.

 
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They also lie about CLEMENT and EVERYONE ELSE.

March 5 2006, 11:02 PM 

Chris, I have moved my comments down: you notice that the responses slowly slide off to the right side. My comments will always be keyed to my FIRST response. I don't intend to be nasty (may be congenital) but I think you don't grasp the evil which has been deliberately poured out on the heads of peaceable OWNERS and life members of many churches. All of the evil is based 100% of being terminally ignorant about MUSIC or they are terminally evil. Based on the whole Bible using music as the MARK of people who try to shut God's mouth and the end-time repeat in Revelation 18 I think they are terminally evil (maybe ignorant also). Since people love to play GOTCHA by using well-distrubuted lies I just don't have it in me to be nice: time is short.
    Chris teaching Clement of Alexandria (Paedag. ii, 4);

    "The psalm is a melodious and sober blessing."

    Clement of Alexandria wrote about 200 A. D. In The Instructor he calls musical instruments "licentious and mischievous. " He then relates to us that he no longer employed these ancient instruments. But he concludes by saying, "And even if you wish to sing and play to the harp or lyre, there is no blame. "

Here is a link to the TRUE TRUTH from Pedagogue II:

http://www.piney.com/FathClPed2.html

If ANYONE tells you that ANYONE in all of church history said ANYTHING to give aid and comfort to making music which is never more than ENTERTAINMENT and "two or three removes from truth" then tell them that Ken Sublett says they are a bald face lier. They MUST be aware that they are lying and I don't have the time or energy left (after the attack of the musicators) to be nice to people who are lumped in hell with "the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters." And don't tell me that Jesus gave them any slack.

Chapter IV.-How to Conduct Ourselves at Feasts.

Let revelry keep away from our rational entertainments, and foolish vigils, too, that revel in intemperance. For revelry is an inebriating pipe, the chain of an amatory bridge, that is, of sorrow. And let love, and intoxication, and senseless passions, be removed from our choir. Burlesque singing is the boon companion of drunkenness. A night spent over drink invites drunkenness, rouses lust, and is audacious in deeds of shame.

You may remember that the Tulsa Workshop, the Jubilee and the church you may intend the theme is the NEW WINESKIN. The proposal was to make worship enthusiastic. Old Philo coined that one it reads Enthus O mania which is the MADNESS all music INTENDED to inject into "worship." Therefore, the proposal--being ignorant of Paul--is to GET DRUNK on enthusiasm and this will LEAD you into the presence of the "gods." Not only is the present MUSICAL thrust based on ignorance, the whole theme of a PROFESSIONAL musician leading WORSHIP is a reversion to rank paganism John prophesied in Revelation 18. When that happens, 18:21 God PUTS OUT OUR LAMPS and ignorance will NEVER let you retreat.

For if people occupy their time with pipes, and psalteries, and choirs, and dances, and Egyptian clapping of hands, and such disorderly frivolities,
    they become quite immodest and intractable, beat on cymbals and drums, and make a noise on instruments of delusion ; for plainly such a banquet, as seems to me,

    is a theatre of drunkenness . For the apostle decrees that, "putting off the works of darkness, we should put on the armour of light, walking honestly as in the day, not spending our time in rioting and drunkenness, in chambering and wantonness."
Let the pipe be resigned to the shepherds, and the flute to the superstitious who are engrossed in idolatry. For, in truth, such instruments are to be banished from the temperate banquet, being more suitable to beasts than men, and the more irrational portion of mankind.


However, Clement, like EVERYONE allegorized or treated POEMS as POETIC and never as a legalistic PATTERNISM for doing EKKLESIA or SYNAGOGUE or School of the Bible which had NONE Of the rituals of the modern church named after CIRCE the holy whore.

AFTER CONDEMNING LITERAL MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS YOUR QUOTATION IS AN ALLEGORICAL UNDERSTANDING why would he follow up by saying it's OK TO PLAY HARPS AND LYRES "IN CHURCH?" That is ASSUREDLY the implication the false teachers want you to believe.

THE Harps of GOD are the INSTRUMENTS of voice which God gave us.

In the present instance He is a GUEST with us. For the apostle adds again, "Teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your heart to God." And again, "Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and His Father." This is our thankful revelry.
    And even if you wish to SING and PLAY to the HARP or LYRE, there is no blame.
    HERE IS THE WAY YOU DO IT!

    Thou shalt imitate the righteous Hebrew king in his thanksgiving to God. "Rejoice in the Lord, ye righteous; praise is comely to the upright," says the prophecy.

    "Confess to the Lord on the harp; play to Him on the psaltery of ten strings. Sing to Him a new song."


    And does not the ten-stringed psaltery indicate the Word Jesus, who is manifested by the element of the decad?

    And as it is befitting, BEFORE PARTAKING OF FOODthat we should bless the Creator of all; so also in drinking it is suitable to praise Him on partaking of His creatures. For the psalm is a melodious and sober blessing. The apostle calls the psalm "a spiritual song."
So, not even in "FELLOWSHIP MEALS" would the word PSALLO permit anything which could not be plucked WITH THE FINGERS and NOT WITH A PLECTRUM. Clement goes beyond and defines the harps of God as the WORD of God.

Paul defined and everyone grasped that the RESOURCE for speaking one to another was "THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN'" which he defines as "SCRIPTURE." What about SCRIPTURE is so hard to grasp that people can let an effeminate "worship leader" lead the silly, erotic praise songs. And speaking of church as GIRLISH GIGGLE TIME with stand up comedians, Clement has something to say:
    On children and women wine "Commands both to laugh luxuriously and to dance," changing effeminate manners to softness. We must consider, too, how consequently freedom of speech leads impropriety on to filthy speaking.

    "And he uttered a word which had been better unsaid."

Melodious literally attaches to the LIMBS which tend to move in step with the chants. A literal melody (which lacked tunefulness) might consiste of 3 or 5 notes which were the NORMAL INFLECTIONS of speech CHANTED. MELODY is not related to HARMONY. You are using proof for MELODY and making it into complex harmony INTENDED to shut down the mind and entertain them.
    Euripides, Iphigenia in Tauris Chorus

    Halcyon bird, you that sing your fate as a lament [1090] beside the rocky ridges of the sea, a cry easily understood by the wise, that you are always chanting for your husband; I, wingless bird that I am, compare [1095] my laments with yours, in my longing for the festivals of Hellas, and for Artemis of childbirth, who dwells beside the Cynthian mountain and the palm with delicate leaves [1100] and the well-grown laurel and the holy shoot of gray-green olive, Leto's dear child, and the lake that rolls about its ripples, where the melodious swan [1105] serves the Muses.

I will keep posting but I can prove to you that ALL of the "proof texts" used by people judgmentally condemning people for NOT joining in and NOT remaining when the singy-clappy people do "body worship" are ALWAYS WRONG. There is not a jot or tittle of support nor is there a jot or tittle in the Bible which does not make it a MARK.

 
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4.152.99.47

CHRIS #3

March 6 2006, 12:19 PM 

CHRIS review NUMBER THREE

CHRIS! I told you that your PROOF TEXTS were POSTED above. LOOK UP! Don't try to DIVERT from PPB who is FULLY AUTHORIZED to teach you, and from my QUOTES and CORRECTION to prove that the AUTHORITY for instruments ALWAYS condemns it. Why do you think people DELIBERATELY try to mislead.

VINCENT'S WORD STUDIES - EPHESIANS 5

19. Speaking to yourselves (lalountev eautoiv). Rev., one to another. The A.V. is literally correct, but is open to the misinterpretation each one communing with himself. The meaning is as in Col. iii. 13, and Rev. is better.

Psalms. See on 1 Cor. xiv. 15 Hymns - spiritual songs. See on Col. iii. 16.

22. Your own (idioi). The peculiar PERSONAL relationship is emphasized as the ground of the duty.
    15. I will sing (yalw). See on Jas. v. 13. The verb, adw is also used for sing, Eph. v. 19; Col. iii. 16; Apoc. v. 9; xiv. 3; xv. 3.

    In the last two passages IT is combined with playing on harps.
    Re v:9 They are HAVING a kithara AND they ADO a new ODE. This is defined as HEBREW CANTILLATION and not MAKING MUSIC.

    We know that their PRAYERS are the INCENSE and you may HAVE literal harps to go along with the TYPICAL incense but DO NOT play the KITHARA at the incense altar where there was a HALF HOUR'S SILENCE.

    Rev 15:3 And they sing (ADO) the song [ODE] of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

    Moses and Aaron SPAKE or RECITED the song so it could be MEMORIZED. If they had a HARP they HELD it and did not PLAY it. Miriam is SPECIFICIALLY said to have LED AWAY (to escape) the WOMEN and sang, played and danced just as they had to HATHOR
Some think that the verb has here its original signification of singing with an instrument. This is its dominant sense in the Septuagint, and both Basil and Gregory of Nyssa define a psalm as implying instrumental accompaniment; and Clement of Alexandria, while forbidding the use of the flute in the agapae, permitted the harp. [Vincent goofs also: this was in PRIVATE MEALS or entertainment. And we PROVED to you that Clement identified the HARP as Christ and His Word]

Vincent etal undoubtedly built on previous works. It is NOT a fact that any of thes PSALLO type words EVER, NEVER means to PLAY on a harp. If one PLUCKS (Psallo) a HARP then we know that they are making "music" which God usually translates as NOISE.

Is it too difficult to grasp that PLUCK can never INCLUDE the whole process of PLUCKING A HARP STRING?

No scholar will EVER find any literature which says PSALLO or PLUCK.

But neither Basil nor Ambrose nor Chrysostom, in their panegyrics upon music, mention instrumental music,
    and Basil expressly condemns it. Bingham dismisses the matter summarily, and sites Justin Martyr as saying expressly that instrumental music was not used in the Christian Church. The verb is used here in the general sense of singing praise.
Psalms. Col 3:16 See the parallel passage, Eph. v. 19. A psalm was ORIGINALLY a song accompanied by a stringed instrument. See on 1 Cor. xiv. 15. The idea of accompaniment PASSED AWAY in usage, and the psalm, in New-Testament phraseology, is an Old-Testament psalm, or a composition having that character.

From ALL Biblical and secular literature we know that a PSALM was METRICAL and it COULD therefore be accompanied by a HARP. Because a harp did not make harmony, the PSALM would be composed to be CANTILLATED which uses the NORMAL inflections of human speech. The CHANTED note would correspond EXACTLY to the note PLUCKED. The harp might have only THREE strings.

Therefore, if you TRUST Vincent, you will be FORCED to understand that the psalms COULD NOT be sung with a harp. That is why Paul used the word SPEAK and put the melody in the PLACE of the human hearts where everyone knew about PLUCKING HEART STRINGS.

PSALLO would allow you to PULL WITH THE FINGERS and suddenly let go to make a TWANG. It EXCLUDES using a GUITAR PICK. By minimial IQ melody DOES NOT mean HARMONY singing "that which Twila has written."

 
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Chris
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161.142.129.53

Psallo

March 16 2006, 3:38 AM 

Please excuse me for being late. My modem was fried and I was knock out by the flu bug for a couple of days. I do not have many Greek lexicons to consult but I do have Arndt & Gingrich, Thayer and, not strictly a lexicon, Trench.

I would have liked to quote you in full but that would be too lengthy. I apologize if I have inadvertently cut off the important texts.

Lucian in Parasites wrote "It is impossible to pipe without a pipe or to PSALLEIN without a lyre or to ride without a horse." (Approx 160AD)

Ken: He DOES NO say that a PSALM demands an INSTRUMENT. He said: you cannot PLUCK unless you have something to PLUCK.

Lucian simply means that one cannot psallein without a musical instrument! IOW, no instrument, no psallein.

Ken: You CANNOT use Lucian without CONFESSING that you INTEND to use music to PLUCK the fleece from the FAT HEADS, SIMPLETONS and especially WIDOWS on wellfare.

Lucian of Samosata wrote in ATTIC GREEK and not Koine.

It doesn't matter who quotes Lucian you cannot have him speaking a form of GREEK a hundred years or so after Paul.

Chris: Strange logic. Lucian may have used IM for the wrong reasons but that does not mean that when we quote him on the usage of a word (psallein) we have to used IM the same way he does. Ken is telling us IM has been used in the wrong place and for the wrong reasons. That is not scriptural but cultural reason for rejecting IM.

And since Lucian was writing in Attic Greek and not Koine (I presume you know that Attic was the foundation for the development of Koine) why bother to tell us about the wayward practices IM was used by Lucian. Just prove to us that the meaning differs. Hey, Arndt & Gingrich and Edward Robinson did not know better for referring us to Lucian.

Ken accused Tom Burgess of using ‘"quoted" resources OUT OF CONTEXT which has to be DELIBERATE. ‘

I am sure Trench, likewise, deliberately quotes early Church Fathers OUT OF CONTEXT. And Thayer is his accomplice since he referred us to Trench.

Ken: The argument is that PSALLO meant to play an instrument AFTER Paul.

Chris: Nope, that is NOT the argument. The argument is that Psallo did not change its meaning to exclude an instrument by the time Paul used it.

Ken: Psallo NEVER means to play an instrument, much less does it mean SING and PLAY and name an instrument.

Chris: Let’s see what 4 distinguish scholars of Greek have to say about that.

Arndt & Gingrich – The original meaning of Psallo was ‘pluck’, ‘play’ (a stringed instrument); this persisted at least to the time of Lucian (cf Parasite 17).

Thayer – b. …to twang the strings of a musical instrument…; and absolutely to play on a string instrument, to play the harp etc.

Trench – Psalm – properly a touching, and then a touching of the harp or other stringed instruments with the finger or with the plectrum…, was next the instrument itself, and last of all the song sung with this musical accompaniment. It is in this latest stage of its meaning that we find the word adopted in the Septuagint; and to this agree the ecclesiastical definitions of it;
And then he quotes the early Church Fathers.

All of these "quotations" are--as far as I have been able to do THEIR work and chase them down--are deliberate lies.

Chris: ‘…as far as I have been able to…’? That does not inspire too much confidence now, does it? I’d rather depend on the scholarship of people like Trench, and Thayer.

VINCENT'S WORD STUDIES - EPHESIANS 5

Some think that the verb has here its original signification of singing with an instrument. This is its dominant sense in the Septuagint, and both Basil and Gregory of Nyssa define a psalm as implying instrumental accompaniment; and Clement of Alexandria, while forbidding the use of the flute in the agapae, permitted the harp. [Vincent goofs also: this was in PRIVATE MEALS or entertainment. And we PROVED to you that Clement identified the HARP as Christ and His Word]

Chris: So Vincent goofed because he disagreed with you.

Finally, I am not advocating the use of IM in your congregation. Sing acappella if that suits you fine.

 
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4.152.81.35

Don't rid the HORSE in church!

March 16 2006, 1:36 PM 

There is NO literature where PSALLO means "play the harp." You PULL a string ONLY WITH YOUR FINGERS and NOT with a plectrum. Guitar picks and drums and organs and flutes are SPECIFICIALLY EXCLUDED by the definition of PSALLO.

Lucian in Parasites wrote "It is impossible to pipe without a pipe or to PSALLEIN without a lyre or to ride without a horse." (Approx 160AD)

Ken: He DOES NO say that a PSALM demands an INSTRUMENT. He said: you cannot PLUCK unless you have something to PLUCK.

Lucian simply means that one cannot psallein without a musical instrument! IOW, no instrument, no psallein.


Psallein is NOT psallo: Psallein MEANS to PLAY A HARP or Lyre. You cannot PLAY a lyre WITHOUT a lyre. Is that hard? You cannot RIDE a horse without a HORSE. I hope you understand that RIDING A HORSE did not mean riding a HORSE? Understand?

LYRIC poetry was written for the LYRE. Isn't that cute. Paul didn't write LYRIC POETRY but NARRATIVE. Narrative is intended to be NARATED. That's even cuter. Even the Psalms are metrical narrative intended to be RECITED.

Ken: You CANNOT use Lucian without CONFESSING that you INTEND to use music to PLUCK the fleece from the FAT HEADS, SIMPLETONS and especially WIDOWS on wellfare.

Lucian of Samosata wrote in ATTIC GREEK and not Koine.

It doesn't matter who quotes Lucian you cannot have him speaking a form of GREEK a hundred years or so after Paul.

Chris: Strange logic. Lucian may have used IM for the wrong reasons but that does not mean that when we quote him on the usage of a word (psallein) we have to used IM the same way he does. Ken is telling us IM has been used in the wrong place and for the wrong reasons. That is not scriptural but cultural reason for rejecting IM.


No, that is ken DEFINING the meaning of PSALLO. Lucian did not say PSALLO and expect anyone to read his mind and MAKE MUSIC. Lucian, like most people selling tales, used ATTIC which was the language of the Aristocrats. This does not mean that PSALLO still meant PLAY A HARP because it never did.

Lucian was describing the ORACLES. An oracle is a MEGA CHURCH or any church which uses ENTERTAINMENT to get MONEY: Apollo at Delphi had the most famous. Apollo is Abaddon or Apollyon and his MUSES or LOCUSTS will go back into hell with him. Peter said that ALL SPEAKING must be as the ORACLE OF GOD and that means to recite THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN.

The "worship leaders" decided how to FLEECE simple minded people. The BEST way was to play musical instruments and make them THINK (he, he, he) that the gods or DEMONS were INSIDE. John defined these ORACLES with their unlawful LAW OF GIVING when he defined the HOLY WHORE as the end-time church. The message is that music does MIND CONTROL. Since the church uses NARRATIVE--even the Psalms--for TEACHING then it NARRATES and does not grow LYRICAL which scholars note as both a MARK and PRODUCER of effeminate males.

And since Lucian was writing in Attic Greek and not Koine (I presume you know that Attic was the foundation for the development of Koine) why bother to tell us about the wayward practices IM was used by Lucian. Just prove to us that the meaning differs. Hey, Arndt & Gingrich and Edward Robinson did not know better for referring us to Lucian.

Ken accused Tom Burgess of using ‘"quoted" resources OUT OF CONTEXT which has to be DELIBERATE. ‘

Ken: The argument is that PSALLO meant to play an instrument AFTER Paul.

Chris: Nope, that is NOT the argument. The argument is that Psallo did not change its meaning to exclude an instrument by the time Paul used it.


PSALLO never included INSTRUMENTS. It means to twang or pluck. You could ALWAYS pluck a harp string but the word PLUCK never told you WHAT to pluck. A related PLUCK means to PLUCK the pubic hair for the "minister of the gods" so he would be ready when Alexander the Great PLUCKED his harp to GROOM him.

When Tom quotes the RESOURCES to prove PSALLO he does not tell you that you that the writers ALWAYS tell you WHAT is being PLUCKED. Neither does he tell you that all of the resources point to older males PLUCKING a harp like Romeo to attract MALE Julets.

You are pretty bright to know what arguments I have heard? THE argument from Burgess and all of the ditto heads IS that Lucian of Samosato used psallo to mean play an instrument AFTER Paul wrote to the Ephesians. I have the book! Johnson, Knowles all copy the same stuff."

Ken: Psallo NEVER means to play an instrument, much less does it mean SING and PLAY and name an instrument.

Chris: Let’s see what 4 distinguish scholars of Greek have to say about that.

Arndt & Gingrich – The original meaning of Psallo was ‘pluck’, ‘play’ (a stringed instrument); this persisted at least to the time of Lucian (cf Parasite 17)


I think the PARENTHESIS means that you can PLUCK a stringed instrument. It always meant to PLUCK but Lucien used the word psallein. YOU CANNOT PLUCK A LYRE WITHOUT A LYRE.

Response to written and posted letters: The Source for Arndt and Gingrich did not make the mistake

We readers know that Arndt made a bad mistake because HE JUST WANTED TO DO IT. Here is some real true history:

"It was so kind of you to take the time to make your inquiry regarding the word psallo. I see by comparison with Bauer's first edition that the editors of Arndt and Gingrich have incorporated the obvious Old Testament meaning into the metaphorical usage of the New Testament.

"Bauer did not make this mistake, and we will be sure to correct it in the revision. I doubt whether the archaeologists can establish the use of the harp in early Christian services." (Bales, 114)
"In other words, Gingrich admitted that the harp no more inheres in psallo than it does in the English word sing. Furthermore, the phrase, which was in parenthesis, was not included in their translation of psallo in James 5:13)

"Gingrich told J. W. Roberts in a conversation in St. Louis that the insertion was his private opinion. McCord announced that the change would be made but it was not." (Bales, p. 115)
"In other words, Gingrich admitted that the harp no more inheres in psallo than it does in the English word sing. Furthermore, the phrase, which was in parenthesis, was not included in their translation of psallo in James 5:13)

"Gingrich told J. W. Roberts in a conversation in St. Louis that the insertion was his private opinion. McCord announced that the change would be made but it was not." (Bales, p. 115)


Thayer – b. …to twang the strings of a musical instrument…; and absolutely to play on a string instrument, to play the harp etc.

You should NEVER too busy to quote the WHOLE truth.

Thayer: a. To pluck off, pull out: the hair. b. To cause to vibrate by touching, to twang; spec. to touch or strike the chord, to touch the strings of a musical instrument, to play the harp, etc.; Sept. for zamar and much oftener for nagan; to sing to the music of the harp.

In the N.T. to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praise of God in song, Jas.5:13; Eph.5:13; Rom.15:9; 1 Cor.14:15 .




Trench – Psalm – properly a touching, and then a touching of the harp or other stringed instruments with the finger or with the plectrum…, was next the instrument itself, and last of all the song sung with this musical accompaniment. It is in this latest stage of its meaning that we find the word adopted in the Septuagint; and to this agree the ecclesiastical definitions of it;

I don't intend to be arrogant: it must be congenital but I have better resources than Trench etal. No one will ever find ANY text in the Bible or ANY literature where PSALLO means to PLAY THE HARP. The word means what the CONTEXT says. If you PLUCK a harp string then you make a SOUND, but it is not MAKING MUSIC IN CHURCH. If you play a series of three tones then you make melody but NOT harmony. If you twang your bowstring to send a SINGING arrow then you are making WAR and that is where you find most of the PLUCKING going on other than homosexual males or prostitutes.

 
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61.6.116.252

Psallo

March 22 2006, 1:09 AM 

Ken: Psallo NEVER means to play an instrument, much less does it mean SING and PLAY and name an instrument.

Arndt & Gingrich – The original meaning of Psallo was ‘pluck’, ‘play’ (a stringed instrument); this persisted at least to the time of Lucian (cf Parasite 17)

Ken: We readers know that Arndt made a bad mistake because HE JUST WANTED TO DO IT.

Chris: The following letter was written by Gingrich in reply to Tom Burgess.

Apr. 29, 1962
The verb ya,llw “psallô” originally meant to “pluck” anything, then to play a musical instrument by plucking. It is true that by N.T. times the emphasis had shifted to “sing,” with or without instrumental accompaniment. The Liddell-Scott-Jones lexicon & Greek gives the meaning “sing to a harp” for the N.T. passages Eph. 5:19 and 1Cor 14:15. The Moulton and Milligan lexicon gives simply “sing” for the N.T. In our translation of Bauer’s lexicon, Dr. Arndt and I gave the meaning as “sing (to the accompaniment of a harp); meaning that the singing could be with or without accompaniment. It seems to me that you cannot exclude the possibility of accompaniment in the N.T. passages, since ya,llw still means "play on the harp" in Lucian, who wrote in the second century A.D. I must say that I regard this controversy over the matter as unimportant.
Sincerely yours,
F. W. Gingrich


Wow, we see Gingrich referring to Lucian again. Strange that he did not mention the orgies related to the word psallein or that Lucian wrote in Attic.

Thayer – b. …to twang the strings of a musical instrument…; and absolutely to play on a string instrument, to play the harp etc.

Ken: You should NEVER too busy to quote the WHOLE truth.

In the N.T. to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praise of God in song, Jas.5:13; Eph.5:13; Rom.15:9; 1 Cor.14:15 .

Chris: I had absolutely no doubt that you would complete the quotation for me. But I wished you did more. That sentence ‘In the NT to sing…’ is supposed to inform that psallo no longer includes IM?

Suffice to say, Thayer uses letters like ‘a’ and ‘b’ to distinguish between two definitions while The American Heritage Dictionary uses numbers instead. And ‘In the N.T. to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praise of God in song,’ is under ‘b’ defined as ‘to cause to vibrate by touching, to twang,…and absolutely to play on a stringed instrument…

But let us look at the word psalmos in Thayer’s work. Thayer repeats what he defined in the word ‘psallo’, ie, ‘a striking, a twanging…; spec. a striking the chords of a musical instrument; hence a pious song, a psalm. Then Thayer points us to Bishop Lightfoot’s commentary on Colossians. What do we see?

Thayer’s reproduced Lightfoot’s commentary on Col 3:16 in the word ‘hymnos’.


[Syn. u[mnoj( yalmo,j( wv|dh,: wv|dh, is the generic term; yalm. and u[mn. are specific, the former designating a song which took its general character from the Old Testament ‘Psalms’ (although not restricted to them. see 1Co. xiv. 15, 26), the latter a song of praise. “While the leading idea of yalm. is a musical accompaniment, and that of u[mn. praise to God, wv|dh, is the general word for a song, whether of praise or on any other subject. Thus it is quite possible for the same song to be at once u[mnoj( yalmo,j and wv|dh” (Bp. Lightft on Col. 3:16). The words occur together in Col. 3:16 and Eph. 5:19. See Trench, Syn. § lxxviii.]


While the leading idea of psalm is a musical accompaniment, hymns praise to God…’ (More of the same later). Thus, how do we get the idea that ‘In the NT to sing…’ means singing without IM?

I looked at AT Robertson’s ‘Word Pictures in the New Testament’ vol 4 page 505.

“With Psalms (psalmois, the Psalms in the OT originally with musical accompaniment), hymns (hymnois, praises to God composed by the Christians like 1 Tim 3:16), spiritual songs (oidais pneumatikais, general description of all whether with or without instrumental accompaniment). The same song can have all 3 words applied to it.”

Please notice the similarities between Robertson’s and Lightfoot’s definition.

Payne, O. E., Instrumental Music is Scriptural, 1920, pp 281-283 mentions an interview he had with AT Robertson.

“Responding to the questions as to the meaning of psallo, and whether, just prior to the New Testament period, it had lost it's earlier meaning 'to sing,' the Doctor reached to the shelves in his study which contain, perhaps, three thousand volumes which specialize in relation to his profession, got a book, and, for answer to my twofold query, read as follows, translating the Greek text as he proceeded.


370 A. D. Gregory of Nyssa on Psalm 103 (I., p. 295).

Psalm (psalmos) is the melody through the musical instrument (the organon).

Song (ode) is the melody (melos) or music with words which takes place by means of the mouth.

Hymn (humnos) is the praise offered to God for the good things that we possess.”

Henry Alford in his commentary on Ephesians refers to the comments of Gregory of Nyssa.in Migne Vol I, page 493:

"The psalm [psalmos] is the melody produced on the musical instrument.

The song [ode] is the utterance of the melody through the mouth with words.

Hymn [humnos] is the praise offered to God for the good things that we possess."


This will be my final post on the issue. God bless you.

I can be contacted at chris_ooi@hotmail.com



 
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Ken
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Re: Psallo

March 22 2006, 7:04 PM 

At no time did PSALLO ever mean PLAY AN INSTRUMENT. Never, ever!

The resources which build on existing definitions and assuredly do not do original research can ONLY show you how a word is USED. That does not DEFINE IT.

PSALLO meant to PULL with the fingers and let go to leave a mark or make a sound which was "musical" when connected to the BOW. However, a single TWANG doeth not music make: not even melody because you need several SINGLE tones in a sequence.

PSALLO excluded using a PICK or instrument like the favorite golden plectron.. You CANNOT psallo with a guitar pick or piano or organ or drum or flute.

The word PSALLO therefore is NEVER used with anything other than the lyre or bow. It never appears with a FLUTE.

What the DEFINITIONS means is that PSALLO often appears as the PLUCKING "pulling with the fingers" connected to the HARP. If I say STRUM that means nothing until I tell you WHAT to strum.

That is why you CANNOT ever find a Bible passage where Psallo or Zamar is used to say "pluck a harp." It simply CANNOT be done. In the Bible you ALWAYS have three components if you want to SING AND PLAY THE HARP: 1. Sing and 2. play or pluck and 3 define WHAT is to be plucked.

If you are going to quote scholars I need for you to give me the scholar, the name of their book and the chapter and verse. Then, I can ALWAYS as I have done to Burgess, Johnson, Knowles etal prove that thy simply quote quotes of quotes and have NEVER read the material and ALWAYS fail to tell you what was happening when Alexander the Great PLUCKED and the name of WHAT he plucked and the Purpose of his plucking. Which in all of Burgess PROOFS for Psallo have to do with older males plucking the harp to prepare the "youth minister" for pederasty.

I can find MOST of the original writings the WORD COMPLIERS have put into books (Webster didn't DEFINE) and I challenge you or anyone to find ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE where PSALLO means PLAY THE HARP. Then, the definitons are absolute: you CANNOT use that to apply to anything which does not have STRINGS and you are OUTLAWED from using even your fingernails: you must PULL and LET GO to make a thwack or twang which is NOT music or melody.

Similar words were used to pluck the HEART STRINGS and that is Paul's DIRECT COMMAND. IN the heart or WITH the heart means a PLACE because Jesus died to remove PLACES built with human hands or worship PERFORMED by human hands. That pretty well leaves out musical instruments and "the idolatry of talent."

 
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Judge Knott
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Modern Grek definitians

March 22 2006, 6:05 PM 

What did "Psallo" mean at the time of the writing? When the Holy Spirit cause men to write the epistles in the first century, what was the meaning of the word "psallo" then?

"Alexander Campbell had the following to say: "…lexicons or Greek dictionaries are not to be depended on, inasmuch as there is none of them more than five hundred years old. So, then all the scriptures are of doubtful import, as far as dictionaries are concerned, for none of the Greek dictionaries can explain a single word in them, because they are only five hundred years old." end Source: The Christian Baptist, VOL. 6, p.277; ed. Alexander Campbell, 1828.


Judge Knott

 
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They ALL lie and CANNOT tell the truth.

March 22 2006, 9:39 PM 

That's perfectly ok: Run Away Cannot Play. That matters not a little because hundreds or thousands will read the TRUE HISTORY without all of the whiney piney.

People also pervert Clement of Alexandria. While absolutely prohibiting instrument IN CHURCH also chided people who left church where they HYMNED TO GOD and went out to a festival OUT OF CHURCH and allowed music to be played. The AGAPAE was NOT worship services. While even in the privacy of your lunch time when you fed others he OUTLAWED the flute and said that if you use the lyre "you are not sinning."

"The noun psalmos 'psalm' (Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16, 1 Cor 14:16) which is etymologically kin to this verb psallo, is used in the New Testament of a religious song in general, having the character of an Old Testament Psalm. Some think that the verb has its original sense in the Septuagint, and both Basil and Gregory of Nyssa define Alexandria,
    while forbidding the use of the FLUTE in the Agapae,
    permitted the HARP [in the Agapae] (Vincent, vol. 3, p. 269)
As late as the fourth century, Gregory, bishop of Nyssa, gave this definition of psalm: "There is a distinction between psalm, ode, praise, hymn, and prayer.

A psalm is the MELODY of a musical instrument;


You will notice if you READ CAREFULLY that a PSALM was METRICAL and could fit the NOTES of a harp or lyre or human RECITING. In a Psalm or SONG the "first instrument of choice is the human voice."

He DID NOT say that a PSALM is a PSALM sung to an INSTRUMENT. By definition, poems are poetic and are METRICAL as is much of the Old Testament. That means that you can READ the psalms as in CANTILLATION in order to teach. This MELODY was the "normal range of human speech."

If you PSALM and the ODE and it was remotely the TRUTH that a Psalm DEMANDS an instrument as Burgess insists, then you would have to HOLD YOUR HARP and not play it (each must have a harp) while you SING or ODE. NOW, that is technical, legalistic PATTERNISM.

and ode is a melodious expression made by the mouth with words.

A little later in the same treatise he wrote:"The psalterion is a musical instrument making its sound from the upper parts of iits construction and the music from this instrument is called a psalm." (p. 29)


It can be called a PSALM but it is NOT a Psalm. The sound which comes from the UPPER part of an instrument (like the human voice) was considered acceptable. However, in SINGING, you must also use the LOWER part of the human instrument to get the diaphasion sounds. You must also do VERY LOUD and this was considered impore.

Fragments from Hippolytus explains:

This book of Psalms before us has also been called by the prophet the "Psalter," because, as they say,

the psaltery alone among musical instruments gives back the sound from above when the brass is struck, and not from beneath, after the manner of others. In order, therefore, that those who understand it may be zealous to carry out the analogy of such an appellation, and may also look above,

from which direction its melody comes-for this reason he has styled it the Psalter.
For it is entirely the VOICE and UTTERANCE of the most Holy Spirit.


That is why Paul COMMANDED that which is written, the Word of Christ or be filled with THE SPIRIT. If you SPEAK on your own then Jesus defines you as "sons of the Devil." That means that ALL of the experts who deliberately do the work of Satan and sow massive discord do not HAVE A CLUE: they just publish books knowing in the imagery of Paul that "fools love to be fooled."

If you then sing SPIRITUAL SONGS composed by the little singy-clangy shortchanged on both words and writing skill then you CLAIM and give AID AND COMFORT to someone who CLAIMS to be more inspired than THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN and are a LOST CO-CONSPIRATOR claiming that he can be your MEDIATOR and lead you into God's presence. That means he is standing IN THE HOLY PLACE claiming to be God: it's called the Abomination of Desolation which in the Temple was sex and music worshiping Zeus (they call him Je Zeus or hail Zeus). How long? Not long! The Lamps have already been put out because of the musical sorcerers (Rev 18:22f)

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
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INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC AND THE OLD TESTAMENT

February 7 2008, 4:04 AM 

INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC AND THE OLD TESTAMENT


We worship God in song without the use of instruments of music for three basic reasons.

  1. Christ did not authorize it. In his Great Commission, he said, "All authority is given unto me in heaven and on earth. Go, make disciples of all nations....teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you (Matt. 28:18-20). If you read the New Testament carefully you will notice that not once do you find any instruction for the church to praise God with instrumental music. You do however find several references to singing in worship such as the passage in Eph. 5:19-20. Remember, Christ is head over all things to the church (Eph. 1:22). He has all authority and we are to teach men to observe all things whatsoever he commanded us (Matt. 28:18-20).

  2. We are committed to worshiping and serving Christ as did the first Christians. Historically we know that it was some 600 years before instrumental music was introduced into Christian worship. It was only after churches had drifted far from the teachings of Christ and his apostles and had grown into what is now known as the Roman Catholic church that this practice was introduced in 670 AD. It caused such a furor that it was withdrawn and not unto the 12th century did it become a common practice. The Greek Orthodox church did not allow the used of instrumental music until the last century...and even now in some areas of the world they still do not use it. John Wesley, founder of the Methodist church wrote that he had no objection to there being instruments of music in their chapels so long as they were neither seen or heard during worship. John Calvin, father of the Reformed and Presbyterian churches, called instrumental music a relic of popery, of the same character as beads and incense. Charles Spurgeon, the greatest of all Baptist preachers, refused to allow any instruments to be used with the singing in his congregation in London. This list could be extended. We are not unique in our position.

  3. Our Bible consists of two grand divisions, Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament was given to the Hebrew people to regulate their faith and practice. It is from God and inspired and inerrant, but it was intended for that ancient form of worship (See Deut. 5:1-3). The New Testament was given to regulate the worship and service of those who follow Christ. Note the following verses that tell us that the Old Testament is no longer our standard for faith and practice. Paul explains to us that in his death upon the cross, Jesus fulfilled that Old Law, took it out of the way, nailing it to the cross. He then exhorted us to "Let no man judge you" respecting its ordinances. Other verses that teach this lesson are Eph. 2:14-14-15; II Cor. 3:7-11; Heb. 8:6-13. The Hebrews were given specific authority from God to use instrumental music in their worship. "Hezekiah...set the Levites in the house of Jehovah with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandments of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet; for the commandment was of Jehovah by his prophets." Thus when they praised God with instruments, they did what God had authorized them to do. If we had such authority expressed in the New Testament, we could do the same. But we don't find such.

When we go to the Old Testament to find approval for instruments of music, we could also go there to find approval for burning incense in worship, for a tribal, hereditary priesthood, animal sacrifices, circumcision, polygamy and other interesting practices. They all stand or fall together.

If you had been in Jerusalem in the first century and were privileged to worship with those first disciples do you think you would have had instrumental music? Today we wish to worship as they did and as the New Testament authorizes us to do.


___________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: johnwaddey@aol.com

 
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Servant
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Re: INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC AND THE OLD TESTAMENT

February 7 2008, 5:43 PM 

Hey Donnie, and Ken, William, and JW.


 
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