Re: Prove it
|February 27 2006, 3:53 AM |
Please forgive me for my following comments if you find them upsetting. They are written with a very sad and heavy heart, not an angry one. But people read things from their own perspective and may react differently. I'm just sick and tired of how Amazed (and a few others) treats people on this site. In fact, I hardly come here anymore because of the attitude of some of the new posters. They remind me of Walt and 9iron.
As for your questions, do I really need to answer them? It's just a ploy to try and get people off the subject matter and the facts by bringing up ridiculous issues that are not related by any stretch of the imagination. LAst time...
You know, I started addressing each of them and realized, YOU KNOW THE ANSWERS and I'm wasting my time. You know these questions are silly and unrelated to the topic at hand. You know that your questions are in full of incorrect assumptions. I'm not going to play this game with you any longer. You can look on this site yourself for the answers to such questions...I know I and others have posted responses to them before.
YOu can't handle the scriptural truth and are trying to find a way around what you want vs. what God commanded. You know it and I know it. Most importantly, God knows it. That's answer enough for me.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
RE: Prove It (by PPB)
|February 27 2006, 11:32 AM |
PPB: "You know, I started addressing each of [the detractors' questions] and realized, YOU KNOW THE ANSWERS and I'm wasting my time."
Dr. Crump: PPB, youve hit the nail on the head. The detractors who post on this site are well known for asking a series of questions, fully knowing what the answers are. Then they initiate a tangential discussion in an attempt to misdirect the train of thought. After a few weeks, they come back and ask the same questions again, perhaps in a different thread, and the cycle repeats. Its their design to create confusion on this site, if we allow them to do so. David Rhoades directed our attention to this phenomenon as the Fruity Loop. One particular guy was really adept at doing this a year or so ago. Hed start with the question series, do the tangential thing, then come back later and pose the same questions again, but worded in a different manner so that it would appear as if he were asking new questions. His responses to our answers consisted primarily of taunts and jeers.
The music threads here are repetitious examples. We had the Boswell-Hardeman thread in the Sunday School in Exile forum, which pretty much covered everything about the pros and cons of instrumental music. That thread was finally closed to stop the incessant, repetitious discussions. Then the Most Convincing music thread popped up in SSE, and the whole mess started again. And wouldnt ya know, a third music thread, Instrumental Music, broke out in the Madison forum, which just churned up the same old arguments even further! And now Concerned Christian, who worships in a c of C but whose heart loves the Change Movement, has been giving us his example of tangential lines in a music thread by repeatedly asking about women covering their heads and wearing jewelry. It's all been covered previously elsewhere. Anything to divert the discussion and hopefully make things confusing! How utterly desperate those detractors are!
Detractors come here, not to learn anything about the Bible or how to worship, but to promote the heresies of the Change Movement and to revile those of us who disagree with them. These detractors fit the description of those mentioned in Romans 16:17-18 (KJV) who cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned
they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
It's time to put the detractors on the shelf.
Re: RE: Prove It (by PPB)
|February 27 2006, 4:29 PM |
Ouch that arrow hurt. I told you about shooting to the left and to the right. Remember Satan is out in front. He is spreading lies about God and how His Grace is not stronger than instrument issues etc. Please aim forward.
BTW Keep in mind Bill, I am not interested in reading your posts from 2 years ago I want to talk to you today. Stop asking me to go and read some post that has been dead for 2 years. I could care less what you and 9iron talked about.
You are right Bill, "it is time to put the detractors on the shelf." Down with Satan!
We are on the same team remember?
Re: Music and Doctrinal Changesthe Strategies
|February 25 2006, 10:50 PM |
Thank you for the dare :-)Okayyyy...here goes.
First of all there is no evidence that the early church consider them "wrong" or sinful. This is a gross exaggeration made by fundamentalists that were breaking away from the Catholic religion in the 1800's (hence our traditional arguments).
The Church of Christ and it's "pioneers" have long argued that psalmos is "plucking" something other than a harp. Yet you read educated scholars and I do mean educated including Church of Christ Scholars (not all) and they agree that this is indicating the Psalms (yes the Dreaded Old Testament reference again). In fact the "Melody in the hearts" is something that historians argue they were to be silent and sing only to themselves. That is ridiculous as saying that the early church considered Instruments wrong. Every little thing (function) was not recorded...perhaps this Christian Walk is not to be too tricky?
I worship in an acapella church, however I have given up this concern or argument a long time ago and many C of C'ers have as well. It is fine if you do not like it it is just a fact. I do not teach Bible classes or preach sermons about the usage of instruments. However when someone challenges why we do not I can only simply say, "it is the choice of our Tradition".
Please educate yourself in something other than the C of C hermeneutic and look outside the box and see the freedom in Christ rather than the bondage that so easily entangles you.
Please give YOUR "verifiable" evidence before you come back with a tract from your foyer.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
RE: Music and Doctrine
|February 26 2006, 12:43 AM |
Concerned Christian says he worships at an a cappella church, yet he has continuously lobbied FOR instrumental music, saying that the only reason he can cite for not using them is, "It is the choice of our Tradition." This is to imply that "tradition" precludes the church of Christ from using them. Funny, after reading the Boswell-Hardeman debate (and I mean the ENTIRE transcript of more than 200 pages), I got the distinct impression that Hardeman and the c of C based their rejection of instruments purely on biblical grounds. Tradition had nothing to do with it. And I also got the impression that Boswell and the denominations favored instruments based more on the scholarship of the world than what the NT said about vocal music or what the NT didn't say about instruments. But I guess folks just can't get the full impact of the debate from a short summary of it in a thread in Sunday School in Exile. They really need to READ it for themselves. BTW, further comments about that debate should ONLY be made by those who have also read it. I trust that CC has also read it, to be fully informed.
If CC really wants instruments in worship, I suggest he just go to a denomination that has them. No sense of pushing them onto any c of C which doesn't want them. No sense of his constantly worshiping in mental turmoil in an a cappella church, when it is apparent that he would rather be worshiping with instruments.
Re: RE: Music and Doctrine
|February 26 2006, 3:13 PM |
I have said it over and over again...so here goes. The Church of Christ is changing...I am not going anywhere. I enjoy leading singing and singing acapella. However, I will not Lobby for arguments that are ludicrous and made up. The Thousands of people I worship with no longer are "hung up" on the issue either. Your # is dwindling. It is flat out a preference that we worship acapella or not. I have read the Boswell-Hardeman debates for years. It is once a gain an argument that is quickly sinking...taking on water if you will.
As I have said to Donnie and now I will say it to you. I will stay right in the Church of Christ and enjoy acapella singing, however I will not condemn a soul to hell for the use of instruments in their worship to do so is playing God and I refuse to sit on that seat.
If Heaven is determined by what one does for an Hour or two on Sunday then it is sad glimpse of attaining Heaven (sounds like Works or working one's way into Heaven.) I see Heaven as very attainable, a road not filled with Land Mines of assumptions about what was done 2,000 years ago.
To assume that Paul was a hater of music when in fact it was part of their Worship rituals with the Old Covenant is outrageous. Hummmm...Maybe he was trying to preach grace and how to grow the church rather than fill it with "I wonder if" theology. We have unfortunately developed a Checklist of what must have been said and PPB coming in and stating that it was NEVER used and WRONG is an outright fallacy. It is just regurgitated from what she has always been told...I know because I used to be tough on this crime of instrument usage as well.
So sad...by the way you can take this anyway you want, but there are more things to be concerned with than instruments...like fighting Satan! Please aim your arrows at him rather than turning to the right and left and shooting them at others and me that are fighting Satan as well.
The GOAT (Beast) Singers and their organs.
|February 26 2006, 4:50 PM |
First, to be A capella, you have to be a virgin and celibate: that means no erotic having sex in the holy places. That is what they say about ALL priestly roles. Did I tell you that the musical PRECENTER was the "first heresy largely pervading the church." The next was SINGING as an ACT of worship was added as late as 373. So, what you are doing is religionism but not REMOTELY connected to what Jesus founded for the "tiny minority." Jesus WILL NOT be in the MULTITUDES other than to lead you captive.
Next, we have to CASTRATE you.
[If the testesterone test proves positive] That is the meaning of a capella. The word derives from one meaning of the Greek CANTUS the production of melodious sound, a musical utterance or expression, either with voice or instrument
if you are a GOAT SINGER then you may not be permitted to know that MELODY is not HARMONY. Harmony often meant MOVING TOGETHER as the musicators MADE MELODY where PSALLO is always connected to homosexual performances. It includes
2. With instruments, a playing, music: in nervorum vocumque cantibus: citharae, horribili stridebat tibia cantu, Querulae tibiae, Of an actor: cantus remissiores facere,
LOTS of people DON'T see you thinglings as CUTE as you see yourselves. All history knows that HARMONY generates off key overtones which HURT. Horribili stridebat tibia cantu
is what God OUTLAWED for the synagogue or church in the wilderness when the people assembled ONLY for teaching the Word.
Now the SECT of the Hypocrites were one of the groups denounced by Jesus. All musical PERFORMERS--especially moving together--are ACTORS where performance. is two or three REMOVES from the FACTS.
The word Queruus complaints, complaining, querulous
Softly complaining, uttering a plaintive sound, murmuring, cooing, warbling, chirping, querulae cicadae, capella,
Capella is a SHE GOAT although PAN the BEAST was bisexual
I hate to show this to sensitive eyes but about HALF of the "audience" see this going on in the Holy Place you have invaded so don't blame ME for what the PERFORMING musicators actually signal with ORGANIC ORGANS or MECHANICAL organs:
Cicadae are the Locusts or Muses of Apollo. Satan unleased them as a MARK of the end time whore.
Horribilis terrible, fearful, dreadful, horrible
Spectacuum (contr. specta-clum a show, sight, spectacle (class.).
Don't you guys do a SPECTACLE OF WORSHIP?
All SINGING in order to AROUSE the "moving together" or even simple harmony is claimed to MOVE the worshipers into the presence of God. Therefore, YOU are a witch and by count there should be ONLY ONE warlock to every ten thousand WITCHES. The familiar spirit means VILE or VIOL and will go back into hell about now.
Even in Ezekiel, the only PROPHETESSES with the power to MAKE SOULS FLY were SUPPOSED to be female: whats up?
And when they shall say unto you, Seek (worship or inquire from) unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards (conjurers) that peep (chirp like a bird), and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? Isaiah 8:19
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Is.29:13
If you get your lipstick on STRAIGHT, I will tell you the connection betwee CAPPELLA or CAPELLA and the FEMALE GOAT. Remember, "tragedy" well that is the FEMALE goat song which in the Greek world HAD to be performed by MALES of whom Plato warned of GENDER BLEED.
Ken, you owe me a computer!
|February 27 2006, 11:45 AM |
I was taking a big drink of coffee when I began reading this post. I laughed so hard, I spewed it all over my computer and shorted it out. It's ruined. You should buy me a new one!
Keep it up Brother Ken. This is your best work yet!
And I quote:
"First, to be A capella, you have to be a virgin and celibate: that means no erotic having sex in the holy places."
"Next, we have to CASTRATE you."
Classic. I used to think you made this stuff up. Now I really do believe you find this SOMEWHERE. No one could make this stuff up. Goat singers... it's great!
P.S.- I'm glad the moderators let you post a picture of a goat with a giant erection. There's no way I would have gotten away with that. It's disgusting and uncalled for, and has nothing to do with this site, this thread, or Christianity at all. Really.
I can't let it go
|February 27 2006, 4:17 PM |
Ken, it just struck me what you wrote just above this ungodly picture:
"I hate to show this to sensitive eyes but about HALF of the "audience" see this going on in the Holy Place you have invaded so don't blame ME for what the PERFORMING musicators actually signal with ORGANIC ORGANS or MECHANICAL organs"
Once again, another flat-out lie. Or lies to be exact.
Lie #1- "I hate to show this to sensetive eyes, but..."
You don't hate to show it or you wouldn't. You don't hate to show that kind of vulgarity, because that's all you do show OR talk about on this site. It's crude, and you love it.
Lie #2- "about HALF of the "audience" see this going on in the Holy Place..."
I know what you mean, and not anywhere close to half the people who think instruments are bad, and there's a change movement and all that see a guy with a goat head and a huge erection running after a girl. I've seen a lot of things at church, but seriously.
Lie #3- "you have invaded" I get the veiled reference to robbing and pillaging poor old
widows that you talk about so frequently. Ken, there is no invasion, take-over, OR conspiracy. Repeating something over and over STILL won't make it true. Keep on though.
Lie #4- don't blame ME for what the PERFORMING musicators actually signal with ORGANIC ORGANS or MECHANICAL organs"
I know your posts well enough to know who you mean by "performing musicators". I also know enough of the people who YOU place in that category to know that none of them are "actually signaling" goats with penises when they lead worship. I can't believe you even used the term "Organic organs or mechanical organs".
I had to respond again because I am so blown away that the moderators let this posting go on the site. It's incredibly offensive. Not to mention senseless.
Moderators, I challenge you to use a little more discretion and common sense. I've personally been censored for WAY less.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
RE: Music and Doctrine (by CC)
|February 26 2006, 5:08 PM |
If CC has decided to stay and worship in the church of Christ, then he doesn't try to push instruments on his congregation. He should neither advocate them nor try to push them on church of Christ-oriented web sites like this one. If he can only justify their absence in his church by "tradition," then the Bible degree that he obtained has not served him well in that regard. He hasn't a leg to stand on to discuss the subject further, for he will not accept what the NT says about vocal music. He only argues from personal opinion, not from biblical fact. But discerning church of Christ members who don't even hold a Bible degree know better.
I don't recall ever condemning anyone to hell on this web site or anywhere else because of their "preference" for instruments over the NT's specification to use vocal music. I have neither the authority nor the desire to do so.
CC has claimed on several occasions that the traditional c of C is dwindling. If this is not merely his wishful thinking, I now ask CC to provide statistical evidence with reliable references to this claim. I will not accept references one or two local congregations that may be losing a few members. I want references to statistical reports that have studied several thousand churches of Christ across the USA that provide undeniable evidence of such shrinkage.
But even if the c of C is shrinking, it only proves that folks are jumping the ship of Truth and going to churches that provide more popular entertainment. Why else would they leave a faith that follows the NT to the letter for a faith that provides them with entertainment?
Re: RE: Music and Doctrine (by CC)
|February 26 2006, 10:07 PM |
So you are saying that the Sunday Worship dictates one's destiny??? WOW!
Getting an education from the PHDuhs as your site refers to is far more enlightenigng than the tracts that we grew up reading and defending.
I am cracking up right now.
Splits are everywhere. The c of C's are not bringing people in like you imagine. Look at the C of C guide and it continues to get thicker because of splits and arguments.
I am not going to bring you statistics I have not the time nor the enegry, however you can go on about the c of C following it to a "Letter"
and I would bet $$$ that your Wife does not cover her Head??? If she does then you are on the path to following it to the "Letter." Do you greet with a Holy Kiss at the door? Do you cover your head? Have you shaved your wife's head? Does she were jewelry at church functions? Does she remain silent?
If you are not follwing these things to the "letter" then you condemn yourself by your own words.
I know I know the "Fruity Loops" are coming!
|Dr. Bill Crump|
RE: Music and Doctrine by CC (Feb. 26)
|February 27 2006, 9:33 AM |
That's all right, CC. I won't hold it against you because you were neither willing nor able to produce statistics to back your claim that the c of C is shrinking. I didn't think you would or could, and neither did the rest of the discerning readers here. Just smoke and mirrors, we all knew. You may not realize it, friend, but you and others of like mind who stay in the c of C but whose hearts really sympathize with and embrace the heresies of the Change Movement are playing crucial roles that are leading up to the end times. And so are the folks who remain in the c of C but who remain faithful to the tenets of the NT.
I direct you to the post entitled "On Second Thought..."
Re: Music and Doctrinal Changesthe Strategies
|February 27 2006, 3:13 AM |
Thank you Concerned Christian for that incredible comeback!!!!
Is this how your church is teaching you...through tracks? For shame! Are you unaware of the documents that exist from the first few centuries, both Christian and non-Christian that discuss the early church and their actions/inactions?
I thought a little history lesson might be needed about now, as I've seen some very erroneous statements made regarding "psallo" and musical instruments on this posting.
Let's start with some early Christian Elders - well before the time of the Catholic Church...
Justin Marytr c. 160, states in his response to a Roman, "Your (pagan) public assemblies I have come to hate. For there are excessive banquets and subtle flutes that provoke people to lustful movemements."
Irenaeus, c. 180 "Of such persons, too, the Spirit has spoken through Isaiah: "They drink wine with harps, tablets, psalteries and flutes. However, they do not regard the works of God."
Clement of Alexander, c 195 "If people occupy their time with pipes, psalateries, choirs, dances, Egyptian clapping of hands, and such disorderly frivolities, they become quite immodest...Let the pipe be resigned to shephards, and the flute to the superstitious ones who are engrossed in idolatry. For in truth, such instruments are to be banished from the temperate banquet...Man is truly a peaceful instrument. However, if you investigate, you will find other instruments to be warlike, inflaming to lusts, kindling up passion, or rousing wrath... We no longer employ the ancient psaltery, trumpet, timbrel and flute. For those expert in war and scorners of the fear of God were inclined to make use of these instruments in the choruses as their festive assemblies..." He goes on to state that if you play them, play them away from the assembly so as not to cause effeminancy and indecency, as instruments are for reveling and tawdry music.
Tertullian, Novation, Cyprian and others all discussed that instruments should not be in the assembly as they are temptations presented by Satan and designed to weaken Christians. Remember, the scriptures tell us that worship is to be orderly and serious!
Pliny, a roman official who hated the Christians, discussed how they met and sang hymns. He was disgusted with the simplicity of their meetings and how different it was from the pagan religions. The Christian's meetings were known for being very quiet, with only their voices heard to sing. Everything was done with order and seriousness.
Mark Minucius Felix c. 200 - discusses how the assembly and our lives should be done in quietness.
Later church leaders and elders:
Erasmus: "We have brought into our churches certain operatic and theatrical music; such a confused, disorderly chattering of some words as I hardly think was ever in any of the Grecian or Roman theatres. The church rings with the noise of trumpets, pipes, and dulcimers; and human voices strive to bear their part with them. Men run to church as to a theatre, to have their ears tickled. And for this end organ makers are hired with great salaries, and a company of boys, who waste all their time learning these whining tones."
Eusebius: "Of old at the time those of the circumcision were worshipping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and cithara and to do this on Sabbath days... We render our hymn with a living psalterion and a living cithara with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms."
Aquinas: "Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may not seem to Judaize." (Thomas Aquinas, Bingham's Antiquities, Vol. 3)
Augustine: "musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship." (Augustine 354 A.D., describing the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius)
Chrysostom: "David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)
In fact, around the same time that the Apostles were helping start the Church, the Jewish religion was undergoing a debate about continuing the use of musical instruments. Philo of Alexandria, HellenisticJudaic philosopher, who wrote in the early years of the Christian era, stated that he was opposed to any kind of music in worship and wanted it stopped.
Historians also agree, and the amount of evidence is overwhelming...
There can be no doubt that originally the music of the divine service was every where entirely of a vocal nature. (Emil Nauman, The History of Music, Vol. 1, p. 177)
We have no real knowledge of the exact character of the music which formed a part of the religious devotion of the first Christian congregations. It was, however, purely vocal. Instrumental music was excluded, at first, as having been used by the Romans at their depraved festivities; and everything reminding them of heathen worship could not be endured by the new religionists. (Frederic Louis Ritter, History of Music from the Christian Era to the Present Time, p. 28)
The general introduction of instrumental music can certainly not be assigned to a date earlier than the 5th and 6th centuries; yea, even Gregory the Great, who towards the end of the 6th century added greatly to the existing church music, absolutely prohibited the use of instruments. Several centuries later the introduction of the organ in sacred service gave the place to instruments as accompaniments for Christian song, and from that time to this they have been freely used with few exceptions. The first organ is believed to have been used in the Church service in the 13th century. (McClintock and Strong, Cyclopaedia of Biblical Literature, Vol 6, p. 759)
So, I ask you again. Why didn't the first Christians use musical instruments?
Re: Music and Doctrinal Changesthe Strategies
|February 27 2006, 5:09 PM |
Good info. Read it a million times. Please reference what churches are having Sex on stage and Orgies in worship due to these dreaded instruments.
Once again these men were arguing there opinions. They were not basing it on anything out of Paul's Text. I still do not agree with you and will never go back to shackling myself to such things that are not a COMMAND.
"Mark Minucius Felix c. 200 - discusses how the assembly and our lives should be done in quietness."
If you are going to add this to your new scriptures then you must follow it it to a "T"
Let's get together and be quiet, I could interpret these "new scriptures" as silence...no talking!!!
Remember the early Christians left the Synagogues and Temple and were in hiding. I would be quiet too. I would not start banging on some drum or cymbal...I would be quiet! My life would depend on it.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
RE: Music and Doctrine (by CC, Feb. 27)
|February 28 2006, 9:35 AM |
CC: "Once again these men [whom PPB quoted] were arguing there [sic] opinions. They were not basing it on anything out of Paul's Text. I still do not agree with you and will never go back to shackling myself to such things that are not a COMMAND."
Dr. Crump: Paul's texts in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 specify using vocal music. Yet CC apparently only recognizes these as "suggestions" (church of Christ "tradition") which may be taken or left at will, not as specific commands. This is indeed an assumption on CC's part, for in his epistles, Paul clearly identifies those few passages that are his own opinions and not the dictates of the Spirit of Christ. Everything else Paul received through the Spirit of Christ. For example, while discussing the problems of marriage, Paul states:
"But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If a brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away" (1 Cor. 7:12 KJV).
Paul wrote what was given to him through the Spirit of Christ (Gal. 1:11-12), and what personal opinions he interjected he clearly flagged them beforehand. It would have been heresy on Paul's part to do otherwise.
What Paul wrote about vocal music came from the Spirit of Christ. Since Paul did not flag it as his personal opinion, it is a COMMAND. Now for our general readers:
- The Christ-centered person does not add instruments when the NT does not authorize instruments in worship, for to do so is arrogant assumption.
- The Christ-centered person does not add instruments just because the NT does not condemn them by name, for to do so is arrogant assumption.
- The Christ-centered person gladly obeys ALL things whatsoever Christ commanded us (Matt. 28:20) through the Gospels and the apostolic writers. This means that everything written therein that is not clearly flagged as human opinion is to be followed with faithful obedience; not some of it; not a little of it; but ALL of it. This includes vocal music.
- The Christ-centered person does not try to find loopholes in those commands or slight them to satisfy his own preferences.
- To the Christ-centered person, Christ's commands, including that of vocal music, are hardly "shackles" or "grievous" (1 John 5:3 KJV).
|March 5 2006, 7:38 AM |
You wrote 'It drives me crazy when someone starts on Greek translations without understanding that word meanings changed throughout the ages. Take Psalms (Psallo) for instance. The liberals use it for their reasoning for instrumental music. I constantly hear the translation as "to pluck a string." Well, yes, at around 500 AD or later it did take on that meaning. At 300 BC, it's meaning didn't have anything to do with an instrument and by 65 AD, it meant to sing WITHOUT an instrument. We know that Paul's letters were written during the time Psallo meant to "sing without an instrument." So, which one should we use? The correct translation of the word at the time it was used OR the one we want to make work because it's fits our needs better. I personally chose to follow the original intention and not what I want it to mean.
The info below is for your consideration
Lexicon ascribed to Cyril of Alexandria (444 A. D. ): (psalmos):
"A musical composition, as when the instrument is rhythmically played according to the harmonic scale.
Clement of Alexandria (Paedag. ii, 4);
"The psalm is a melodious and sober blessing."
Basil the Great (Hem. in Ps. 44):
"For it is a song and not a psalm, because it is rendered with musical expression by the voice alone, without the accompaniment of the instrument."
Basil (Hem. in Ps. 29: 1):
"The psalm is a musical discourse when it is played rhythmically on the instrument with harmonic sounds."
Gregory of Nyssa in Ps. c.3 (this is not 100:3, but chapter three on the headings on the psalms):
"A psalm is singing which is effected with the aid of instrumental music.
Lucian in Parasites wrote It is impossible to pipe without a pipe or to PSALLEIN without a lyre or to ride without a horse. (Approx 160AD)
CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA
Clement of Alexandria wrote about 200 A. D. In The Instructor he calls musical instruments licentious and mischievous. He then relates to us that he no longer employed these ancient instruments. But he concludes by saying, And even if you wish to sing and play to the harp or lyre, there is no blame.
Please let me know if you need definition of the word from Greek Scholars like Robertson, Arndt & Gingrich, Thayer, Vine etc. It is too long to post it here but if you or others would like more info, please email me.
|March 6 2006, 4:12 AM |
Thanks for your posting, I just now saw it. Below is my response.
Please note that your first passage is from 444 AD - nearly 400 years after the writing of the NT letters. Several changes in the meaning of the word Psallo had already occurred during this time frame - so I'm not sure how this relates to the issue of the original letters and their true meaning.
Clement of Alexandria (Paedag. ii, 4);
"The psalm is a melodious and sober blessing." - I'm not sure where you are going with this one, as I don't see any reference to the usage/non-usage of instruments.
Basil the Great and Gregory of Nyssa were both born over 250 years after the NT letters. Again, we have plenty of evidence to show that the meaning of "psallo" had changed by their time. So, I'm not sure how this ties into the issue. Furthermore, these men were part of the beginnings of the catholic church - which was begun by a a man considered a "heretic" by the original churches.
Lucian - born abt. 125. A Syrian writer well known by philospher's and scholars for having used older Greek translations from around 500 BC (well before the time of Christ) for his writings. As such, any Greek interpretation would not always correlate to the time of the NT letters. For your review:
"When we pass to purely literary matters, the first thing to be remarked upon is the linguistic miracle presented to us. It is useless to dwell upon it in detail, since this is an introduction not to Lucian, but to a translation of Lucian; it exists, none the less. A Syrian writes in Greek, and not in the Greek of his own time, but in that of five or six centuries before, and he does it, if not with absolute correctness, yet with the easy mastery that we expect only from one in a million of those who write in their mother tongue, and takes his place as an immortal classic. The miracle may be repeated; an English-educated Hindu may produce masterpieces of Elizabethan English that will rank him with Bacon and Ben Jonson; but it will surprise us, when it does happen. That Lucian was himself aware of the awful dangers besetting the writer who would revive an obsolete fashion of speech is shown in the Lexiphanes." THE WORKS OF LUCIAN OF SAMOSATA. Complete with exceptions specified in the preface TRANSLATED BY H. W. FOWLER AND F. G. FOWLER
CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA
If you read all of his writings on this issue, it becomes very clear that Clement is discussing the use of instruments both inside and outside the assembly. He is fully against their usage in the assembly and wary of their usage outside the assembly. He felt instruments could lead one away from God, but did not fully condemn them outside the assembly (temperate banquet). I believe that is exactly how many c of C regard instruments today. There is a time and place, but the assembly is not the right time and place for the use of instrumental music. I think the posting by Judge Knott clarifies that even better.
Here are more excerpts from Clement of Alexandria, (c. 195 E), 2.248 - 2.290.
"Let the pipe be resigned to the shepherds, and the flute to the superstitious ones who are engrossed in idolatry. For in truth, such instruments are to be BANIHSED from the temperate banquet...The one instrument of peace, the Word alone by whom we honor God, is what we employ. We no longer employ the ancient psaltery, trumpet, timbrel, and flute. For those expert in war and scorners of the fear of God were inclined to make use of these instruments in the choruses at their festive assemblies...But let our songs by hymns to God...We must reject frivolous music, which weakens men's souls."
I hope this helps clarify why I have such issues with poor and outdated translation and why we need to be very careful about where we get our translations.
|March 25 2006, 8:23 AM |
Thank you for your kind response.
I did not mean to ignore your reply. I only saw it today. I did not know that my original message was posted on the board. Anyway, I have shared what I would like to say. There is little else to add.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
On Second Thought...
|February 26 2006, 9:21 PM |
I dont need for Concerned Christian to provide any statistical evidence to back his claim that the church of Christ is shrinking, that people are leaving it for the denominations or other faiths that have become sucked into the heresies of the Change Movement. I take CCs word completely. I wouldnt be surprised if, one day in the near future, CC posted a message that said in effect, All who ever belonged to the church of Christ, including yours truly, have finally left it for greener pastures, leaving David Rhoades, Ken Sublett, Donnie Cruz, PPB, Jimmy Wren, and Dr. Bill Crump as the sole
remnants of that faith on this earth.
Would this mean that we in the church of Christ had been wrong all along in completely trusting and obeying what was written in the New Testament, adding nothing to it, taking nothing from it?
Would this mean that we had been wrong to stay on the narrow path by keeping our worship simple, holy, and without raucous pop music and worldly entertainment to draw pleasure-seeking crowds?
Would this mean that we had been wrong not to have altered and rewritten the doctrines of the new Testament to keep pace with the mindset of a perverse, godless, culture-oriented society?
Would this mean that the Change Movement will have utterly defeated us, should our numbers
dwindle to virtually nothing, while theirs soar to astronomical heights?
What would this mean?
This would mean that the prophecies and admonitions of Christ in the Gospels and in the apostolic writings were being fulfilled:
- Broad and easy is the path to destruction; many will flock to it. Narrow and difficult is the path to salvation; few will ever find it (Matt. 7:13-14 KJV).
- Though the Word of God be preached, eventually the time will come when people will turn away from the Truth and sound doctrine of the New Testament. Caving in to their own lusts and preferences, they will embrace the alien theologies of other teachers, who, with pleasant speech, will convince the undiscerning to spurn the Truth (Romans 16:17-18; 2 Tim. 4:1-4 KJV).
- False teachers shall come by stealth and lure many to embrace damnable heresies and shall speak evil of the Truth (2 Peter 2:1-3 KJV).
According to the New Testament, the closer to the end of time we come, the number of apostates will climb, while the numbers of the faithful will dwindle. Yes, CC, if the truly faithful members of the church of Christ are truly falling, and since the numbers who embrace the heretical Change Movement are definitely
climbing with each new day, all is taking place right on schedule.
"On Second Thought."
|February 27 2006, 11:41 AM |
When I read Dr. Crump's post I had to go back up and make sure it wasn't the J.W's, Jimmy Swaggart or Jerry Falwell posting. Interesting that Jesus said, "It is not for you to know the times or seasons, which the Father has put in his own authority." Paul would say to (the non-instrumental?) church in Thessalonica: "But of the times and the seasons, brethern, you have no need that I write to you, For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night."
Gentlemen, the Kingdom has come. Shame on you Dr. Crump, you comprehension of "the kingdom of God" is that of Nicodemus. Jesus' answer to you would be: "Are you a teacher of the New Testament and know not these things?"
No, Dr. Crump, you will not be seated at the Lord's right hand and Ken on the left with the remnant of David, Donnie, PPB, or Jimmy lounging on benches in the Upper room. You see, the "promise" was not made just to the "elete" by the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:39. No, you will not have your own "good old boys" fraternity where you and the "boys" will "black ball" those who have been "baptized into Christ for the foregiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit." Jesus would say, "Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces. and the chief seats in the synagogues and the uppermost rooms at feasts."
To those who love the Lord and have gone out into the by-ways and preached Christ are servants of the Lord. Yes, Dr. Crump we have "received a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, reverence, and godly awe: Let brotherly love continue."