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David Rhoades
(Login ConcernedMembers)

Re: ONE act can send you to hell!

March 8 2006, 2:03 PM 

Jesus -- The Rock That Will Not Roll
Part 1 of 3
(An expose of Satan's Minstrels of Music)
by Lt. Col. Jack Mohr, AUS Ret.

"Every good free bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit...
Therefore by their fruits shall ye know them". - Matt. 7:18, 20


Christian Youth and Parents, Have You Been
"Sucked in" by this Satanic Delusion?

"This know, that in the last days (of this age) perilous (dangerous) times shall Come.
For men (and women) will be lovers of their own selves - . Having a form of godliness,
but denying the power thereof: from such turn away". - 2 Timothy 3:1-5

Jesus Loves to Rock and Roll Or Does He?

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Ken Sublett
(no login)

Numbers don't lie but .......

February 27 2006, 6:54 PM 

You need the OLD STATS: We once had about 2.25 MILLION members. But, that was a bad count. When we moved back to Murfreesboro in 1980 we began working the membership list and removed those we were informed were DEAD when we made contact. If a person was baptized and then became a serial killer, when he is buried he claims to be a member of the church of Christ.

So what? My timetable based on what began about 1987 with the MUSICATING in the holy places would "prophesy" almost NO faithful church still VISIBLE and AUDIBLE about now. That MAY be the actual fact. As we have been able to inform people I can guarantee that lots of those with HELL SCARED INTO them for NOT tithing have fled.

1997 13,000 Congregations
2003 13,155 Congregations
2006 12,963 Congregations
That means a loss of 37 congregations--if you believe preacher's count.

That is about the number which have been INFILTRATED and DIVERTED by the Christian church pushing their UNITY MEETINGS using PLANTS to take the name off of the church. One of the posters can count about 20 of those in Texas which have gone instrumental.

If you believe the numbers--virtually impossible to get--then here are the numbers--if your numbers can be trusted.

1997 1,278,000 Members
2003 1,276,621 Members;
2006 1,265,844 Members
12156 That is less than 1% which is the way ALL institutions are going as the internet does a better job without CONFISCATING your children's health care. I don't know of one which CLOSED SHOP because of NOT doing music. Do you? Name it and we will check it out.

1997 was when I quit being counted and about the time that the Tulsa Workshop, the Unity Forums and Jubilee began OUTING the object of their mass meetings to sow MASSIVE DISCORD among peaceable churches of Christ. I would say that MOST churches signed onto the Shellyite etal heresy that the ROLE OF THE CHURCH IS TO WORSHIP. When even "conservative" churches adopted the Howard (vineyard) NEW STYLE PRAISE SINGING I watched lots of people quit attending. I am sure that the Shellyite LOCATED MISSIONARY kicked lots of honest preachers out of business and church planting stopped.

So, if I have a hundred lambs and YOU steal 10 of them I suppose you would justify your new POSTMODERN definition of lying and say that YOU stole them because I wasn't getting the most WORK PRODUCT out of them.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Second-Thought Stats

February 28 2006, 12:08 AM 

Well, it looks like CC found the time and the energy to show that indeed the c of C is dwindling, something he initially wasn't willing or able to do. Of course, I did say that I would take him at his word about the c of C without statistics. I congratulate him in showing that this faith is dropping (CC would say "dying"). So I guess we're just gonna have to pack up and leave and go over to the denominations that pick and choose what they'll follow in the NT and that pack 'em in with the entertainment. After all, folks ARE flocking to the Purpose-Driven churches in droves where they have their "freedom." Let me muse on this a bit, and I'll get back...

...I'm back. Naw, I'll hold on to the true faith and trust the NT in its prediction that as the end of time draws closer and closer, there will be more and more people falling away from the true faith and flocking as apostates to those false teachers who deceive folks with pleasant words and fair speech. I'd say the Change Movement is one good source for fair speech, false teaching, and deception. Christ advised us to observe the times for signs of the end. We don't know the EXACT day or hour, but we can see when things are gradually falling into place as per NT predictions.

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Ken Sublett
(no login)

Now, the background, to the MARK of the Beasties.

February 27 2006, 5:55 PM 

Amazed continued: We showed you what the SPIRITUAL EYE sees when the thinglings MOUNT the podium. Here is some of the background so maybe you, too, will want to flee Babylon or be MARKED by the BEAST who is also known as Eve or Zoe the female instructing principle. Paul knew more about Eve than we do if we have been sung into illiteracy: trust him.

"The term 'ca-na-na-um' was used by the inhabitants as early as 3500 BC (Aubet). The Hebrew "cana'ani" meant merchant, but the original meaning may have come from Akkadian kinahhu - red-colored wool, which may have in turn given their descendents the name Phoenician.
    Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts. Zec.14:21
How we gonna solve that problem since the invasion of the BODY SNATCHERS? Well, Revelation 18 defines the RETURN of the forskin collecort MOTHER. In 18:22 we see that woe promounced on rhetorical speakers, singers and musicians understanding that the WHEEL speaks a "musical sound" and that concubines or prostitutes were the GRINDERS, they too will have to quit bumping and grinding in the SCHOOL ROOM. Jesus solves the problem: when the HAREM OF THE GODS or the SECTARIAN singers or musicians COME IN then in verse 19 Jesus removes His LAMPSTAND or LAMPS of the seven SPIRITS which are not wee little "forest spirits" but forms of Divine knowledge you NEED In the school house.

You may have missed Jesus affirming that the CLERGY were of the SEED of Abraham but we know that they were NOT of Isaac. Therefore, the RELIGIOUS FUNCTIONARIES have always ben ARABS. Arab means AMBUSH.
    Kenaaniy (h3669) ken-ah-an-ee'; patrial from 3667; a Kenaanite or inhabitant of Kenaan; by impl. a pedlar (the Canaanites standing for their neighbors the Ishmaelites, who conducted mercantile caravans): - Canaanite, merchant, trafficker.

    Kenaan (g3667) ken-ah'-an; from 3665; humiliated; Kenaan, a son of Ham; also the country inhabited by him: - Canaan, merchant, traffick.

    Kana (h3665) kaw-nah'; a prim. root; prop. to bend the knee; hence to humiliate, vanquish: - bring down (low), into subjection, under, humble (self), subdue.
Central to the Semitic notion of deity is El, the old fatherly creator god and his consort, Athirat or Asherah. "Both were primordial beings, they had been there always." El, whose name simply meant 'god' was the creator and procreator, overseer of conception, who sired the gods, thus being also called 'Bull El' in continuity with the ancient bull god of fertility. Asherah and El thus form a creation hieros-gamos of male and female, representing the bull and the earth goddess we see emerging from the ancient continuum at Catal Huyuk. El is supposed to have gone out to sea and asked two Goddesses, one presumably being Athirat and the other possibly Anath to choose between being his spouses and being his daughters.
    They chose the former. Their offspring are Shaher and Shalem, the morning and evening stars, from which Lucifer, the light-bearer, takes his name.
Lucifer, of course, in later incarnations is Sophia-Zoe.

In the Canaanite myth, a new and possibly Akkadian outsider, whose name is Ba'al Haddad or Lord enters the situation in hated competition with Asherah and her children by El. He is a young, warlike god of wind and thunderstorms and thus fertility itself. Unlike El, he is not judicious, frequently figuring in situations from which he must be saved. In this respect he displays a significant parallel to Dumuzi (Tammuz) among the Mesopotamians, which will prove to be of significance. He also has the hideous attribute of devouring his own children, consistent with infanticide practices of several semitic patron gods. See Tammuz worship by the women at Jerusalem

Initially Ba'al and Anat are members of El's court. Ba'al attacks El by surprise and castrates him, assuming the power of his fertility. In effect, Ba'al becomes the central iINTERMEDIARY of paternal cosmic order ... "it is Ba'al's responsibility to ensure El's benevolent intention is realized", but he does not replace the primal creative power of El.

Now, they pronounce Jesus Christ incompetent to preserve His Word and we "gonna partner with God to get a new supply." They also promise to lead you into the presence of God which means that they ARE standing in the Most Holy Place claiming to BE God.

"Anath was fertilized by the blood of men, rather than semen, because her worship dated all the way back to the neolithic, when fatherhood was unknown and blood was considered the only substance which could transmit life.
    Hecatombs of [100] men seem to have been sacrificed to Anath when her image was reddened with rouge and henna for the occasion. Like the Lady of the Serpent Skirt,

    Anath hung the shorn penises of her victims on her goatskin apron or aegis." "Anath's capacity to curse and kill made even the Heavenly Father afraid of her. When El seemed reluctant to do her bidding, she threatened to smash his head and cover his grey hair and beard with gore. He hastily gave her everything she asked, saying 'Whoever hinders thee will be crushed' " (Walker 30).
If you do the ANTIPHONAL response as a kind of "battle of singing parts" then you are singing in the style of ANAH. That was the STYLE of musical MOCKING by which the CANAANITES or KENITES whol always controlled the Temple (a like the nation's Mega-church where God knew they wanted to WORSHIP like the nations).

In the Babylonian Tablets this is Inanna who got Ea--the patron of music--and stole the ME which gave her the power of the Eldership, making music and sexual perversion.

Mark the spot: you are there.

"The papacy also continued the practice of creating castratos (a cappella worship Leaders who were boys castrated before puberty to keep their singing voices high-pitched) for their own entertainment, long after it had fallen in disfavor throughout Italy."

"Into this artificial world came the castrati, who had first gained a place in Italian churches for their 'angelic' voices.
    Castratos are said to have been the world's first superstars, because of the great sums paid to them for their singing, and scheduled engagements that took them to cities across Europe, to please their enthusiastic followers.
"How can we hear their music today, since we have no more castratos to listen to? Well, during the current renaissance in Baroque music, some castrato roles have been carefully recreated by counter-tenors also known as male altos or sopranos. Other musical parts are sung by women who use a natural alto or soprano range,
    but adopt a style which attempts to make the music sound
    appropriately 'masculine',at least for male roles.

There is much debate as to which is better--but keeping in mind the fact that most early composers wrote 'trouser' roles for women to sing, and that castratos frequently presented women's roles, especially in their youth, it would seem that gender stretching is an original part of this music, and perhaps one reason for its continuing dramatic impact."

When you HEAR this taking place in the ekklesia or school of Christ and His Word, you know that some FEMALE "Goddess" is behind the scene wearing a skirt of shorn penesis.

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(no login)

Re: Now, the background, to the MARK of the Beasties.

March 1 2006, 9:32 PM 


By the way, your comment about tracks the other day really bothered me. Who learns from a track? Is that what these "enlightened" churches are now doing? Do you guys study books instead of the actual Bible?

Please be careful about throwing around your "biblical training" on this site. You are only one of many who have studied theology at college, so we aren't impressed. In fact, I have to admit that I am horrified at the lack of basic biblical understanding I see in the younger college grads. It's so sad to see that they can't interpret the bible by themselves and must rely on their professors' opinions. Do they not teach Greek and Hebrew anymore? Is it just one or two classes? What has changed?

Let's keep this simple for those that aren't comfortable with all the ins and outs of understanding a foreign language...

"Because strait is the gate" -
- strait (stenos, adj)- desciption meaning narrow, small
gate (pule)noun,fem - an entrance or opening to a city or palace, metaphorically relates to entry into heaven.
- because (hoti) demonstrative conjunction - the joining of two verbs or sayings (strait is the gate & narrow is the way)

"and narrow is the way," -
- Narrow (thlibo) - condensed, squeezed, compressed, thin ....
- Way (hodos) - literally means path, metaphorically means behavior/conduct

"which leadeth unto life" -
- leadeth (apago) - as a verb it means to lead away to a certain end
- life (zoe) - absolute fullness of life - to last forever
metaphorically means an everlasting state of being with God

"and few there be that find it" -
- few (oligos, adj) meaning few, little, small number
- and (kai, conj) cumulative events, 1 + 1 = 2
- find (heurisko, v) present/active - to find, discover, seek, etc. As an active verb, it clearly indicates one must take action.
- it (autos) - pronoun, demonstrative - relating back to the word life.


Let's give this an intellectual review and not an OPINION. Take away your preconceived notions and read the sentence as it was written. Read it in its simple version without relying on someone else's interpretation:

    BECAUSE narrow is the entry and thin is the path which leads to everlasting life with God
    AND only a small number there are that will seek and discover that everlasting life.


Did I miss something here? I don't see anything here that tells me that lot's of people will find everlasting life or fullness of life. No one's arguing that God doesn't want everyone to make it, of course he does and he says so. But he also states that he knows it isn't going to happen. He already knows what will be.

Do you remember how he destroyed entire cities? The flood? How many survived that onslaught? Many? No...8. 8 People!!! God hasn't changed in his demand to be obeyed - only how we obey him has changed (Old Law vs. Christ's death). He warned us that even though he love us, he is also a vengeful and jealous God. It amazes me how people seem to forget this side of God and only see him as one-dimensional. He is both! Loving and forgiving to those that obey his commands, vengeful to those that do not. I do not lessen his power and authority as your interpretation tries to do.

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 7:21 NOT EVERY ONE that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, SHALL ENTER into the kingdom of HEAVEN; but he that DOETH THE WILL of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, ye that work iniquity.

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allen coffman
(no login)

And the gate is...

March 1 2006, 11:22 PM 

Suppose the gate is surrender to Jesus Christ as Lord and not doctrinal perfection?

That might give us too much and common and take away too much of our control.

God's will is good you guys. And, it takes the supernatual incarnation of His Spirit into a humble, child-like and contrite heart to be conformed to it. I pray for much more of all of these qualities in the American church.


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(no login)

Re: And the gate is...

March 2 2006, 7:23 PM 


Your view would make the rest of the sentence null and void, wouldn't it? Much less the verse directly before it. If all it takes is surrendering to Christ without obedience, then the gate would be awfully wide. Why even warn us of the narrowness? Do you really think that God just put in that verse for the fun of it? Maybe he wanted to tease us? Common sense needs to come into play here at some point guys, does it not? You are aware that "few" would not correlate to the number of people that have surrendered to Christ, but have rejected some of his Father's commands (like some of the posters here)?

By the way, if I REALLY and TRULY SURRENDER to Christ, then would I not FEEL OBLIGATED to abide by his request to follow ALL his Father's commandments? I mean, true love is total acceptance, is it not? Oops, better throw this verse out with the "fear God" ones, since God didn't really mean for us to actually believe those verses. Is there some secret code that tells me which ones I'm supposed to obey and which ones I should disregard?

Trying to find a way around such a straight forward and simple sentence takes a lot of effort. Wouldn't it just be easier to take God at face value and listen to His inspired word? Christ said few would find eternal life...I didn't say it nor did anyone on this site. We didn't make it up and we didn't twist it around. It's simple Greek grammar that translates into simple English grammar. I didn't see any OR's or Maybe's that would give us an option. But then again, I'm always amazed at how some posters still find a way to justify their OPINION which they cannot back up scripturally or grammatically.

Hey, if you think you can play such games with your soul, okay. Russian Roulette anyone?

If you feel like arguing with Christ, go ahead. I'll sit this one out.

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allen coffman
(no login)

Re: And the gate is...

March 2 2006, 11:32 PM 


My experience has been that few are interested in surrendering to Christ. So, few have entered the gate.

But, I have been blessed beyond my understanding and imagination by trusting Him to lead me in His will. I study His word, spend time in prayer, sit in quiet with Him, worship Him with all my heart and serve Him as He opens my eyes to see where He leads. It is a great life that is free from fear, free from guilt, free from second guessing, free from worry, free from the need to control and free from condemnation. I know I do not have it all figured out but I do know God's way is right and good. I am growing in His ways everyday. I trust God to teach me. And, I know, God has asked me to teach others. 1. I want to because He has been so good to me- I have to share the blessing. 2. I want to be obedient because He commanded me to.

I know it is difficult to communicate on a message board where our lives do not give a back drop to our words. But, I hear you saying you are proud that you are one of the few who will make it because you feel your rare and exceptional doctrinal perfection justifies your ticket through the gate. It reminds me of 1 Chorinthians 1

1 Corinthians 1:18-31
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[a]
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."[b]


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Judge Knott
(no login)

There is no worship in music

March 3 2006, 2:55 PM 

"It appears never to occur to the multitudes who throng the assemblies to hear instruments, sweet voices and artistic melodies, that there is no worship in it, or, at least, divine worship. All that can be heard in a theater,
in a museum, or less godly places, where there is certainly no worship. There is no worship in music, in itself.

There is power in it, enchantment, but as easily associated with vice as virtue, with cruelty as with beneficence, with corruption as purity.

We find music where there are no moral qualities, either good or bad —a mere
secular entertainment."
The Gospel Preacher: a book of 21 Sermons, by Benjamin Franklin, vol 2, Gospel Light Publishing Co., Delight Arkansas 71940

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Judge Knott
(no login)

There is no worship in music (instrumental)

March 4 2006, 7:16 AM 

1.)Singing is commanded in the words, “Singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” It is the precise thing to be done. It is not a command to perform music, either vocal or instrumental. The music is only a secondary matter, and incidental, and not the thing commanded. The singing is the precise thing commanded. The Apostle says, “And even things without life, giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped. For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle ? So likewise you, except you utter with the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? For you shall speak into the air.”-l Corinthians xiv. 7-9. Again, a little further on he says, I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than you all, yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.” Then the Apostle is here speaking of spiritual gifts, but showing the importance of being understood in the assembly.

In the midst of this he says, "What then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.” The singing in worship is no mere exercise in music, or musical display, but singing in obedience to the divine command; to please God; to do his will; and is to be with the spirit and the understanding: and to be understood by the congregation, as we shall see more fully presently.

2.) We are to teach one another in singing. This singing is not for music, a musical entertainment, amusement, or attraction, but one method of teaching one another, in the church, in worship; and, therefore, must have teaching in it and the words must be sung so that they can be understood, or they can teach nothing. This divine appointment has been almost wholly subverted, and this important method of teaching set aside by a variety of pieces that have no teaching in them; the merest vapor ever put into poetry; the most insipid trash ever uttered, and sung purely for music, without ever thinking of the meaning of the words, or whether they have any meaning. No wonder the people are in ignorance, when the very means God has ordained for teacfiing is thus subverted. But to complete the farce an instrument is brought in, as if the determination was that the appointment of God, to teach one another in singing, should be defeated by musical sounds, that utter no words, and confuse the ear, so that not one word of five can be caught at all! Who is taught in the songs where they use an organ? Who listens to it with the idea of being taught? No one. Not a spiritual idea is imparted in a month. Still, they say, “What harm is it?"

Taken from:The Gospel Preacher: a book of 21 Sermons, by Benjamin Franklin, vol 2, Gospel Light Publishing Co., Delight Arkansas 71940

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(no login)

Re: There is no worship in music (instrumental)

March 4 2006, 5:02 PM 

Judge Knott....catchy title.

Thanks for the info from Benjamin Franklin (the preacher, not the founding father of our nation). Lot's of good info in his writings. Drew's blog also refers to this site. (

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(no login)

Re: And the gate is...

March 4 2006, 4:29 PM 

Again Allen, you jump to conclusions and do so in a very unChristian manner.

Unlike your assumption above, I do not think I am special or better than others. I am humbled that God would even take a second of his time to think of me. I am humbled that my prayers to God have opened my eyes to his Word, the path to salvation. I am thankful and grateful that he heard my pleas and believed I was sincere in my search. I am so glad, that I now must show others his Word and his COMMANDS so that they may search and find the path. My wish is for everyone to go to Heaven. He is so powerful that I have FAITH that the Bible was written for ALL generations to hear and believe in. That his word hasn't weakened over the centuries nor has his vengeance on those who do NOT follow his complete and holy Word.

He has given all of us a way to live with him in eternity if we follow his Word. Failing to follow his ENTIRE word does mean that I will not be with him in eternity. My only fear is when I knowingly fail to obey him. As long as I am continually growing in knowledge of Him and his Word, teaching HIS CORRECT and FULL word to others, rebuking those who teach false doctrine, loving and glorifying him, remaining full in faith, and making my light shine so as not to be a stumbling block to others, I have no fear. I also have no feeling of superiority. Your words above truly break my heart as they fail to acknowledge God's desires.

As for condimnation. That is a cop-out of the lowest kind. Wouldn't it be just grand to sit back and think "I have no other duty to God than to just love him...yeah me!" But that's not what the Lord taught us or commanded us to do. We are to be ever vigilant for false doctrine and false teachers, we are to reprimand those that are unChristian in behavior and teachings, we are to rebuke and turn-away from those who refuse to abide by his commands. THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENTS.

Unlike how your posting comes across, I'm not arrogant and self-satisfied enough to think I'm above his COMPLETE word. I do not remove the importantance of "certain verses" because I am more intellectual than those that came before me. I do not add or take away from God's word because I think I "know better". That is what you just did in your last posting. You NEVER mentioned God's commands or wants or needs.

That is the difference between you and I. Read back over our postings. Mine rely on scriptures. Not twisting them, just reading them as simple grammatical sentences, incorporating the verses before and after for the full story. Your comments are based on YOUR feelings and opinions of what YOU think the scriptures really mean. In fact, you refuse to address many scriptures and come back with ones you think refute the verse. That implies that God is full of contradictions.

The difference between you and I is simple. I don't go by my personal wants and needs when determining what God wants me to believe and do. I believe that God only asked one thing of me to "show myself approved" - Total belief in Him and His Word. All of it.

So, which one of us is really listening to God?

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Concerned Christian
(no login)

Re: Now, the background, to the MARK of the Beasties.

March 6 2006, 4:37 PM 

Sorry for my absence...I was out knocking on doors this weekend (that "church growth scheme" again) helping spread the message of Jesus


You talk about simple English and yet you do not listen to what I said without getting worked up and responding with anger. Here is what I said about the Tract thing. "Please give YOUR "verifiable" evidence before you come back with a tract from your foyer." I said nothing about me getting my information from a tract. This is the c of C way. Get your answers from these tracts. Simple English and you made it into something I did not say. Hummmmm, what else do you do with simple English? I also mentioned that the church assembly "does not seal my salvation" and you blew up into a dimension of unknown. Please read before you judge what I said. Church assembly does not seal my salvation anymore that it does yours. You need to realize that the Christian walk does not go on only in the sanctuary. Once again Simple English...etc.

I am done with you people. I know there will continue to be anger and venom, but like I said before on numerous occasions, you people make Heaven difficult to obtain, PPB and others constantly show there ignorance every time they touch a keyboard and the battle is lost. The freedom of Christ is not to be abused so that "Grace May Abound" it is about being excited about Jesus (smiling, swaying, raising hands) and making church (assembly) not always be the focus and the means to Heaven, but spread the saving grace of Jesus.

I was visiting with a friend of mine that works at a private Christian High School and he told me that the school board wants more "change agents" the branch of the "Old Church of Christ" is on Life Support and they are gladly seeing the anger and venom leave. You see as you all have been so ugly and pushy and make instruments be on the same level as orgies (sex games) and idol worship in church, it has been slowly driving people away.

Once Again, "God does NOT want people to go to Hell. He established a Law for people to understand boundaries. He then brought the Law of Christ which is Grace Driven. No one is perfect, and when clothed in Christ's Blood I am confident that I am going to Heaven. Your comments remind me of class I was teaching recently. We had a few "crispers" like you that were not sure if they were going to heaven they just "Hoped" that they were going to Heaven. 50/50 chance? WOW! How do people not have confidence? That is the Fear Factor that has been engrained into Christians Heads for years! It amazes me how we cannot have the confidence that by Following Christ we will win! We are promised that!

There is no way any of us deserve Heaven, which is why He sent Jesus here to save us. I guess trying to undo 40-50-60+ years of theology are hard for some to do."

In Closing: Moderators, I am shocked at this website, letting a WOMAN teach over men. I thought we were to follow the Bible to the "Letter." I guess you are change agents as well, letting her have an opinion and teach MEN.

For the Moderators and PPB

The Church Shrinking Schemers are coming, the Church Shrinking Schemers are coming!!!

Not so Respectfully Yours,

Fritz Freedom

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Dr. Bill Crump
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RE: Now, the Background, etc. (by CC, March 6)

March 7 2006, 12:07 PM 

CC: "Sorry for my absence...I was out knocking on doors this weekend (that "church growth scheme" again) helping spread the message of Jesus ."

Dr. Crump: Rhetorical question: Is this statement an example of Matt. 5:14-16 KJV, or is it an example of Matt. 6:1-4 KJV?

Learn from the example of a previous poster. A year or so ago, one self-righteous guy often posted messages which blew his horn from the highest mountaintops. He made it quite clear with statements such as, "I go out into the highways and byways, and I bring them in!" Then he would add, "How many people have you brought to Christ? Have you ever brought anyone to Christ?" This guy had used "good works" to laud himself over others, as the Pharisee in the parable had done with the publican in Luke 18:9-14 KJV. Yet what treasure he had initially laid up for himself in heaven by "bringing people to Christ" had been utterly squandered on his monstrously inflated ego.

Bottom line: There's a fine line between being a "shining light" and "blowing one's horn." A very fine line.

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Ken Sublett
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For CHRIS who wants us to PLUCK

March 5 2006, 12:13 PM 

    Chris Lucian in Parasites wrote "It is impossible to pipe without a pipe or to PSALLEIN without a lyre or to ride without a horse." (Approx 160AD)

    With the added ATTIC words

    "..for it is impossible to pipe [aulein] without a pipe [auloon] or to STRUM [psallein] without a lyre [luras], or to ride [ippeuein] without a horse [ippou]..."

Psallo means to PLUCK with the FINGERS and NOT with a plectrum: not guitar picks, no organs, drums and no NOTHING but PLUCKING with your FINGERS.
    "The psaltery (psalterion, saltere, sauterie, Psalterium, Psalter, salterio) is an ancient intstrument seen in many forms. Early versions were simply a wooden board with gut strings stretched between pegs. The strings were plucked with fingers or by plectra (the name might have DERIVED from the Greek psallein meaning plucked with fingers).

    According to Heredotus, Cyrus was told how to turn warriors into women:

    and make them bring up their sons to cithern-playing (Kitharizein), singing (psallein), and shop-keeping (Hucksterism). So wilt thou soon see them become women instead of men,

I think Chris (?) from New South Wales (?) has been raiding Tom Burgess' etal garbage can? Lucian was showing how to play the FLUTE in order to FLEECE the fat heads and simpletons. How do you DO that? Well, in all of the Pagan ORACLES they used EMASCULATED MALES (they went all the way according to Paul) as the "musical worship ministers." NO, NO, NO EXCEPTION. All of Burgess etal PROOF TEXT MARKS the musicators as "males PLUCKING the harp string to PLUCK a young male emasculated or even sex changed." They used it like Chris probably does: to PUT FORCE into the ungodly LAW OF GIVING.

Lucian's use of instrumental music is in connection with the continuing pagan fertility rituals where wine, women and song with instruments "strummed up" the dead "gods" to come to them in an intimate way in charismatic ecstasy. "In Lucian of Samosata's Dialogues of a Courtesan we hear almost exclusively of women musicians and singers." The king of Tyre as the agent of the female or bisexual Lucifer gained his/her customers through literal music. Males who PERFORMED were, we are told, "either drunks or perverts." Only MALES performed as FEMALES in the pagan temples.

    "Sponging" is the superior art and "the sponger has no ulterior object; occupation and pre-occupation are for him one and the same." However,

    "Other arts, again, are useless to their professor unless he has his plant;

    you cannot PLAY the flute if you have not one to play;
    lyrical music requires a LYRE,
    horsemanship a HORSE.

    But of ours (sponging) one of the excellences and conveniences is that no instrument is required for its exercise. The Parasite, 17. Translated by H. W. and F. G. Fowler, Vol III, 1905
Attic - The language of Lucian. The Britannica
    Attic was the ancient Greek dialect that was the language of ancient Athens. Its closest relative was the Ionic dialect of Euboea. With the ascendance of the Athenian empire in the course of the 5th century BC, Attic became the most prestigious of the Greek dialects and as a result was adopted later as

      the standard language by the Macedonian kings. Moreover, it became in Hellenistic times the language of the Macedonian rulers in the Middle East and Egypt.

      This later phase of Attic is called Koine, a dialect common to all Greeks.

    In literature, Attic is the dialect of Athenian comedy and, interspersed with Doric LYRIC (from lyre) elements, of tragedy. In the second half of the 5th century BC, it also became the dialect of Greek prose, not only for such Athenian writers as Thucydides, Xenophon, Plato, Lysias, Isocrates, and Demosthenes but also for foreigners such as the orator and Sophist Gorgias of Leontini (Sicily).

      During the Roman period, prose writers such as Plutarch and LUCIAN were Atticists:

      they preferred to use the classical Attic dialect of the 5th and 4th centuries BC, rather than the spoken Koine of their own time.
Well, it really doesn't matter. Lucian was showing how to FLEECE the fat heads and simpletons with INSTRUMENTS. He proves that only PERVERTED "musical worship ministers" performed (double duty). He DOES NO say that a PSALM demands an INSTRUMENT. He said: you cannot PLUCK unless you have something to PLUCK.

You CANNOT use Lucian without CONFESSING that you INTEND to use music to PLUCK the fleece from the FAT HEADS, SIMPLETONS and especially WIDOWS on wellfare.

Probably no one but Burgess (and I) have plowed through the literature to find forms of PSALLO. However, Burgess is AFFLICTED with an ungodly TILT and perverts all of the writers by NOT using the BEFORE and AFTER quotation. He might find that Philip chided his son Alexander the Great for being TOO talented at Plucking the harp knowing that he was seducing a young boy. Alexander died of a STRANGE disease.

All of the other "quoted" resources are used OUT OF CONTEXT which has to be DELIBERATE. Watch this page for more.

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(no login)


March 5 2006, 7:47 PM 


I wonder how you managed to reply to my message without it being posted by the moderators. Are you one of the moderators?

I have a great deal of respect for your ability to do research but do you have to be rude? You said 'garbage can' of Tom Burgess. Perhaps you are also referring to Arndt & Gingrich's work 'A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature' as garbage can too for Lucian was mentioned in page 891.

It would be good if we could discuss issues with Christian love.

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(no login)

Posted above

March 5 2006, 9:27 PM 

Chris, you posted ABOVE. Sorry, I don't have any patience with people who just repeat, repeat and repeat.

The argument is that PSALLO meant to play an instrument AFTER Paul.

Lucian of Samosata wrote in ATTIC GREEK and not Koine.

Therefore, Lucian was speaking as an ATTIC speaker and he was from Syria.

Lucian and ALL people who speak of PSALLO meaning PLUCK as in plucking a HARP STRING always connect it to older males plucking a harp to seduce a young boy or some other act of prostitution or perversion.

It doesn't matter who quotes Lucian you cannot have him speaking a form of GREEK a hundred years or so after Paul.

Psallo NEVER means to play an instrument, much less does it mean SING and PLAY and name an instrument.

The word PLAY is a fairly simple word. You can play on Broadway, play basketball of play a harp. That you can PLAY a harp can never be used to MEAN that PLAY means "play a harp."

Psallo NEVER means PLAY A HARP: it means pluck WITH THE FINGERS and NEVER with a plectrum. You will never see anyone PLUCKING an instrument made for the plectrum. You can never find PSALLO meaning to PLUCK a flute with your fingers. Psallo or PLUCK has absolutely NO more musical meaning than the word PLAY. The word ABSOLUTELY excludes anything you are apt do do as MAKING MUSIC when you are supposed to be letting Jesus do the teaching. After all, it is HIS school of the Bible and you cannot even hallucinate a MUSICAL component to the synagogue or ekklesia.

All of these "quotations" are--as far as I have been able to do THEIR work and chase them down--are deliberate lies. If they are ignorant lies and people get paid to destroy churches then not even ignorance will save them.

When you are trying to DEFEAT those who have never used instruments and will not BOW TO BAAL you should never quote one of the INSTRUMENTAL writers unless they point you to a DOCUMENT. Tom Burgess and his imitators QUOTES from actual documents but he IS VERY SELECTIVE. I have reviewed his book and posted THE REST OF THE STORY to prove that he is just lying because he MUST have had the documents to PICK from and left out what REPUDIATES every argument he makes and others repeat.

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Ken Sublett
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CHRIS # TWO. Don't miss #1. I will answer most or all.

March 5 2006, 8:04 PM 


A Psalm is defined exactly the way a SONG is defined: The HUMAN VOICE is always the FIRST INSTRUMENT OF CHOICE. A song is NEVER accompanied with a musical instrument unless that instrument is NAMED.

It is a poem which can be performed with
    The human voice as an instrument
    A harp
    Or other instrument.
Furthermore, a poem can be READ or RECITED. The word used in the Song of Moses uses the word RECITE and Hebrew cantillation meant to SPEAK which is not musical.
    Chris or Jack Holt Gregory of Nyssa in Ps. c.3 (this is not 100:3, but chapter three on the headings on the psalms):

    "A psalm is singing which is effected with the aid of instrumental music."

Well, this quotation has no REFERENCE so it has no honest value in PROVING anything. Psalm is a GREEK word and not a Hebrew word. Hebrew would read PRAISE. Now, we know that no instrument inheres in the word HALAL unless one is named. Halal means to BOAST or "make yourself vile" and is the ROOT word for LUCIFER. That is because these are not WORSHIP songs but WARRIOR'S CHANTS.

The word Psalmos means to TWITCH with the fingers and has NO meaning other than with the PSALTERY or harp to make A LOUD CRUSING NOISE and not MUSIC. If you TWITCH a harp string then you still may NOT be making music. If you TWITCH or PLUCK a hair of a head and make it "twang" the word DOES NOT mean to make music. The word of itself NEVER MEANS to play a harp although it you pluck a harp then you must TELL what is to be PLUCKED. It might be the pubic hair of the young "ministers of the gods" seduced by males PLUCKING the harp string.

The Psaltery has the same meaning as the Familiar Spirit of the Witch of Endor or the SOUNDING GONGS of 1 Cor 13:1.
    Nebel (h5035) neh'-bel; from 5034; a skin- bag for liquids (from collapsing when empty); hence a vase (as similar in shape when full); also a lyre (as having a body of like form): - bottle, pitcher, psaltery, vessel, viol

    Nabel (h5034) naw-bale'; to wilt; generally to fall away, fail, faint; figurative: to be foolish or morally wicked; to despise, disgrace: - disgrace, dishonour, lightly esteem, fade (away, - ing), fall (down, -ling, off), do foolishly, come to nought, surely, make vile, wither..

Whether the quotation is FABRICATED or not Gregory would NEVER suggest instruments in CHANTING the Psalms which was most often done in private groups.

Gregory sounds much like Lucian of Samosata in saying:

"8 . Now since man is a rational animal, the instrument of his body must be made suitable for the use of reason; as you may see musicians producing their music according to the form of their instruments, and not piping with harps nor harping upon flutes,
    so it must needs be that the organization of these instruments of ours should be adapted for reason, that when struck by the vocal organs it might be able to sound properly for the use of words.
For this reason the hands were attached to the body; for though we can count up very many uses in daily life for which these skilfully contrived and helpful instruments, our hands, that easily follow every art and every operation, alike in war and peace , are serviceable, yet nature added them to our body pre-eminently for the sake of reason.

2. And as some skilled musician, who may have been deprived by some affection of his own voice, and yet wish to make his skill known,
    might make melody with voices of others,
    and publish his art by the aid of flutes or of the lyre,

    so also the human mind being a discoverer of all sorts of conceptions, seeing that it is unable, by the mere soul, to reveal to those who hear by bodily senses the motions of its understanding, touches, like some skilful composer,

    these animated instruments, and makes known its hidden thoughts by means of the sound produced upon them.
3. Now the music of the human instrument is a SORT of compound of flute and lyre,
    sounding together in combination as in a concerted piece of music.

    For the breath, as it is forced up from the air-receiving vessels through the windpipe, when the speaker's impulse to utterance attunes the harmony to sound, and as it strikes against the internal protuberances which divide this flute-like passage in a circular arrangement, imitates in a way the sound uttered through a flute, being driven round and round by the membranous projections.
But the palate receives the sound from below in its own concavity, and dividing the sound by the two passages that extend to the nostrils, and by the cartilages about the perforated bone, as it were by some scaly protuberance, makes its resonance louder; while the cheek, the tongue, the mechanism of the pharynx by which the chin is relaxed when drawn in,
    and tightened when extended to a point-all these in many different ways answer to the motion of the plectrum upon the strings, varying very quickly, as occasion requires, the arrangement of the tones; and the opening and closing of the lips has the same effect as players produce when they check the breath of the flute with their fingers according to the measure of the tune.
X. That the Mind Works by Means of the Senses.

1. As the mind then produces the music of reason by means of our instrumental construction, we are born rational, while, as I think, we should not have had the gift of reason if we had had to employ our LIPS to supply the need of the body-the heavy and toilsome part of the task of providing food. As things are, however, our hands appropriate this ministration to themselves, and leave the mouth available for the service of reason.

2 . The operation of the instrument , however, is twofold; one for the production of sound, the other for the reception of concepts from without;
    and the one faculty does not blend with the other, but abides in the operation for which it was appointed by nature,

    not interfering with its neighbour either by the sense of hearing undertaking to speak, or by the speech undertaking to hear; for the latter is always uttering something, while the ear, as Solomon somewhere says, is not filled with continual hearing
9. Again, as a musician, when he touches with the plectrum the slackened strings of a lyre, brings out no orderly melody (for that which is not stretched will not sound), but his hand frequently moves skilfully, bringing the plectrum to the position of the notes so far as place is concerned, yet there is no sound, except that he produces by the vibration of the strings a sort of uncertain and indistinct hum;
    so in sleep the mechanism of the senses being relaxed, the artist is either quite inactive, if the instrument is completely relaxed by satiety or heaviness; or will act slackly and faintly, if the instrument of the senses does not fully admit of the exercise of its art."
If I wanted to be an honest preacher I would use Gregory and EVERYONE ELSE to prove that instruments MUST NOT be used IN CHURCH. I don't believe that anyone who sets out to deliberately SOW DISCORD just so they can musicate can handle the Word of God with minimal honesty.

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(no login)


March 5 2006, 10:26 PM 


Thank you for your reply.

I believe for your reply to be meaningful my message should be posted on the message board first. How else are readers to know what you are replying to? BTW, I do not see any reasons why the moderators could not post my message on the board. There is nothing vulgar or crude contained therein, only quotes from Early Church Fathers and Lucian.

As for the Early Church Fathers’ quotes, I am sure you have the book by Trench ‘Synonyms of the New Testament’. It can be found on page 296.


I am Chris, NOT Jack Holt.

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Ken Sublett
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They also lie about CLEMENT and EVERYONE ELSE.

March 5 2006, 11:02 PM 

Chris, I have moved my comments down: you notice that the responses slowly slide off to the right side. My comments will always be keyed to my FIRST response. I don't intend to be nasty (may be congenital) but I think you don't grasp the evil which has been deliberately poured out on the heads of peaceable OWNERS and life members of many churches. All of the evil is based 100% of being terminally ignorant about MUSIC or they are terminally evil. Based on the whole Bible using music as the MARK of people who try to shut God's mouth and the end-time repeat in Revelation 18 I think they are terminally evil (maybe ignorant also). Since people love to play GOTCHA by using well-distrubuted lies I just don't have it in me to be nice: time is short.
    Chris teaching Clement of Alexandria (Paedag. ii, 4);

    "The psalm is a melodious and sober blessing."

    Clement of Alexandria wrote about 200 A. D. In The Instructor he calls musical instruments "licentious and mischievous. " He then relates to us that he no longer employed these ancient instruments. But he concludes by saying, "And even if you wish to sing and play to the harp or lyre, there is no blame. "

Here is a link to the TRUE TRUTH from Pedagogue II:

If ANYONE tells you that ANYONE in all of church history said ANYTHING to give aid and comfort to making music which is never more than ENTERTAINMENT and "two or three removes from truth" then tell them that Ken Sublett says they are a bald face lier. They MUST be aware that they are lying and I don't have the time or energy left (after the attack of the musicators) to be nice to people who are lumped in hell with "the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters." And don't tell me that Jesus gave them any slack.

Chapter IV.-How to Conduct Ourselves at Feasts.

Let revelry keep away from our rational entertainments, and foolish vigils, too, that revel in intemperance. For revelry is an inebriating pipe, the chain of an amatory bridge, that is, of sorrow. And let love, and intoxication, and senseless passions, be removed from our choir. Burlesque singing is the boon companion of drunkenness. A night spent over drink invites drunkenness, rouses lust, and is audacious in deeds of shame.

You may remember that the Tulsa Workshop, the Jubilee and the church you may intend the theme is the NEW WINESKIN. The proposal was to make worship enthusiastic. Old Philo coined that one it reads Enthus O mania which is the MADNESS all music INTENDED to inject into "worship." Therefore, the proposal--being ignorant of Paul--is to GET DRUNK on enthusiasm and this will LEAD you into the presence of the "gods." Not only is the present MUSICAL thrust based on ignorance, the whole theme of a PROFESSIONAL musician leading WORSHIP is a reversion to rank paganism John prophesied in Revelation 18. When that happens, 18:21 God PUTS OUT OUR LAMPS and ignorance will NEVER let you retreat.

For if people occupy their time with pipes, and psalteries, and choirs, and dances, and Egyptian clapping of hands, and such disorderly frivolities,
    they become quite immodest and intractable, beat on cymbals and drums, and make a noise on instruments of delusion ; for plainly such a banquet, as seems to me,

    is a theatre of drunkenness . For the apostle decrees that, "putting off the works of darkness, we should put on the armour of light, walking honestly as in the day, not spending our time in rioting and drunkenness, in chambering and wantonness."
Let the pipe be resigned to the shepherds, and the flute to the superstitious who are engrossed in idolatry. For, in truth, such instruments are to be banished from the temperate banquet, being more suitable to beasts than men, and the more irrational portion of mankind.

However, Clement, like EVERYONE allegorized or treated POEMS as POETIC and never as a legalistic PATTERNISM for doing EKKLESIA or SYNAGOGUE or School of the Bible which had NONE Of the rituals of the modern church named after CIRCE the holy whore.

AFTER CONDEMNING LITERAL MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS YOUR QUOTATION IS AN ALLEGORICAL UNDERSTANDING why would he follow up by saying it's OK TO PLAY HARPS AND LYRES "IN CHURCH?" That is ASSUREDLY the implication the false teachers want you to believe.

THE Harps of GOD are the INSTRUMENTS of voice which God gave us.

In the present instance He is a GUEST with us. For the apostle adds again, "Teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your heart to God." And again, "Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and His Father." This is our thankful revelry.
    And even if you wish to SING and PLAY to the HARP or LYRE, there is no blame.

    Thou shalt imitate the righteous Hebrew king in his thanksgiving to God. "Rejoice in the Lord, ye righteous; praise is comely to the upright," says the prophecy.

    "Confess to the Lord on the harp; play to Him on the psaltery of ten strings. Sing to Him a new song."

    And does not the ten-stringed psaltery indicate the Word Jesus, who is manifested by the element of the decad?

    And as it is befitting, BEFORE PARTAKING OF FOODthat we should bless the Creator of all; so also in drinking it is suitable to praise Him on partaking of His creatures. For the psalm is a melodious and sober blessing. The apostle calls the psalm "a spiritual song."
So, not even in "FELLOWSHIP MEALS" would the word PSALLO permit anything which could not be plucked WITH THE FINGERS and NOT WITH A PLECTRUM. Clement goes beyond and defines the harps of God as the WORD of God.

Paul defined and everyone grasped that the RESOURCE for speaking one to another was "THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN'" which he defines as "SCRIPTURE." What about SCRIPTURE is so hard to grasp that people can let an effeminate "worship leader" lead the silly, erotic praise songs. And speaking of church as GIRLISH GIGGLE TIME with stand up comedians, Clement has something to say:
    On children and women wine "Commands both to laugh luxuriously and to dance," changing effeminate manners to softness. We must consider, too, how consequently freedom of speech leads impropriety on to filthy speaking.

    "And he uttered a word which had been better unsaid."

Melodious literally attaches to the LIMBS which tend to move in step with the chants. A literal melody (which lacked tunefulness) might consiste of 3 or 5 notes which were the NORMAL INFLECTIONS of speech CHANTED. MELODY is not related to HARMONY. You are using proof for MELODY and making it into complex harmony INTENDED to shut down the mind and entertain them.
    Euripides, Iphigenia in Tauris Chorus

    Halcyon bird, you that sing your fate as a lament [1090] beside the rocky ridges of the sea, a cry easily understood by the wise, that you are always chanting for your husband; I, wingless bird that I am, compare [1095] my laments with yours, in my longing for the festivals of Hellas, and for Artemis of childbirth, who dwells beside the Cynthian mountain and the palm with delicate leaves [1100] and the well-grown laurel and the holy shoot of gray-green olive, Leto's dear child, and the lake that rolls about its ripples, where the melodious swan [1105] serves the Muses.

I will keep posting but I can prove to you that ALL of the "proof texts" used by people judgmentally condemning people for NOT joining in and NOT remaining when the singy-clappy people do "body worship" are ALWAYS WRONG. There is not a jot or tittle of support nor is there a jot or tittle in the Bible which does not make it a MARK.

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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
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120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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