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Ken Sublett
(no login)
4.152.99.47

CHRIS #3

March 6 2006, 12:19 PM 

CHRIS review NUMBER THREE

CHRIS! I told you that your PROOF TEXTS were POSTED above. LOOK UP! Don't try to DIVERT from PPB who is FULLY AUTHORIZED to teach you, and from my QUOTES and CORRECTION to prove that the AUTHORITY for instruments ALWAYS condemns it. Why do you think people DELIBERATELY try to mislead.

VINCENT'S WORD STUDIES - EPHESIANS 5

19. Speaking to yourselves (lalountev eautoiv). Rev., one to another. The A.V. is literally correct, but is open to the misinterpretation each one communing with himself. The meaning is as in Col. iii. 13, and Rev. is better.

Psalms. See on 1 Cor. xiv. 15 Hymns - spiritual songs. See on Col. iii. 16.

22. Your own (idioi). The peculiar PERSONAL relationship is emphasized as the ground of the duty.
    15. I will sing (yalw). See on Jas. v. 13. The verb, adw is also used for sing, Eph. v. 19; Col. iii. 16; Apoc. v. 9; xiv. 3; xv. 3.

    In the last two passages IT is combined with playing on harps.
    Re v:9 They are HAVING a kithara AND they ADO a new ODE. This is defined as HEBREW CANTILLATION and not MAKING MUSIC.

    We know that their PRAYERS are the INCENSE and you may HAVE literal harps to go along with the TYPICAL incense but DO NOT play the KITHARA at the incense altar where there was a HALF HOUR'S SILENCE.

    Rev 15:3 And they sing (ADO) the song [ODE] of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

    Moses and Aaron SPAKE or RECITED the song so it could be MEMORIZED. If they had a HARP they HELD it and did not PLAY it. Miriam is SPECIFICIALLY said to have LED AWAY (to escape) the WOMEN and sang, played and danced just as they had to HATHOR
Some think that the verb has here its original signification of singing with an instrument. This is its dominant sense in the Septuagint, and both Basil and Gregory of Nyssa define a psalm as implying instrumental accompaniment; and Clement of Alexandria, while forbidding the use of the flute in the agapae, permitted the harp. [Vincent goofs also: this was in PRIVATE MEALS or entertainment. And we PROVED to you that Clement identified the HARP as Christ and His Word]

Vincent etal undoubtedly built on previous works. It is NOT a fact that any of thes PSALLO type words EVER, NEVER means to PLAY on a harp. If one PLUCKS (Psallo) a HARP then we know that they are making "music" which God usually translates as NOISE.

Is it too difficult to grasp that PLUCK can never INCLUDE the whole process of PLUCKING A HARP STRING?

No scholar will EVER find any literature which says PSALLO or PLUCK.

But neither Basil nor Ambrose nor Chrysostom, in their panegyrics upon music, mention instrumental music,
    and Basil expressly condemns it. Bingham dismisses the matter summarily, and sites Justin Martyr as saying expressly that instrumental music was not used in the Christian Church. The verb is used here in the general sense of singing praise.
Psalms. Col 3:16 See the parallel passage, Eph. v. 19. A psalm was ORIGINALLY a song accompanied by a stringed instrument. See on 1 Cor. xiv. 15. The idea of accompaniment PASSED AWAY in usage, and the psalm, in New-Testament phraseology, is an Old-Testament psalm, or a composition having that character.

From ALL Biblical and secular literature we know that a PSALM was METRICAL and it COULD therefore be accompanied by a HARP. Because a harp did not make harmony, the PSALM would be composed to be CANTILLATED which uses the NORMAL inflections of human speech. The CHANTED note would correspond EXACTLY to the note PLUCKED. The harp might have only THREE strings.

Therefore, if you TRUST Vincent, you will be FORCED to understand that the psalms COULD NOT be sung with a harp. That is why Paul used the word SPEAK and put the melody in the PLACE of the human hearts where everyone knew about PLUCKING HEART STRINGS.

PSALLO would allow you to PULL WITH THE FINGERS and suddenly let go to make a TWANG. It EXCLUDES using a GUITAR PICK. By minimial IQ melody DOES NOT mean HARMONY singing "that which Twila has written."

 
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Chris
(no login)
161.142.129.53

Psallo

March 16 2006, 3:38 AM 

Please excuse me for being late. My modem was fried and I was knock out by the flu bug for a couple of days. I do not have many Greek lexicons to consult but I do have Arndt & Gingrich, Thayer and, not strictly a lexicon, Trench.

I would have liked to quote you in full but that would be too lengthy. I apologize if I have inadvertently cut off the important texts.

Lucian in Parasites wrote "It is impossible to pipe without a pipe or to PSALLEIN without a lyre or to ride without a horse." (Approx 160AD)

Ken: He DOES NO say that a PSALM demands an INSTRUMENT. He said: you cannot PLUCK unless you have something to PLUCK.

Lucian simply means that one cannot psallein without a musical instrument! IOW, no instrument, no psallein.

Ken: You CANNOT use Lucian without CONFESSING that you INTEND to use music to PLUCK the fleece from the FAT HEADS, SIMPLETONS and especially WIDOWS on wellfare.

Lucian of Samosata wrote in ATTIC GREEK and not Koine.

It doesn't matter who quotes Lucian you cannot have him speaking a form of GREEK a hundred years or so after Paul.

Chris: Strange logic. Lucian may have used IM for the wrong reasons but that does not mean that when we quote him on the usage of a word (psallein) we have to used IM the same way he does. Ken is telling us IM has been used in the wrong place and for the wrong reasons. That is not scriptural but cultural reason for rejecting IM.

And since Lucian was writing in Attic Greek and not Koine (I presume you know that Attic was the foundation for the development of Koine) why bother to tell us about the wayward practices IM was used by Lucian. Just prove to us that the meaning differs. Hey, Arndt & Gingrich and Edward Robinson did not know better for referring us to Lucian.

Ken accused Tom Burgess of using ‘"quoted" resources OUT OF CONTEXT which has to be DELIBERATE. ‘

I am sure Trench, likewise, deliberately quotes early Church Fathers OUT OF CONTEXT. And Thayer is his accomplice since he referred us to Trench.

Ken: The argument is that PSALLO meant to play an instrument AFTER Paul.

Chris: Nope, that is NOT the argument. The argument is that Psallo did not change its meaning to exclude an instrument by the time Paul used it.

Ken: Psallo NEVER means to play an instrument, much less does it mean SING and PLAY and name an instrument.

Chris: Let’s see what 4 distinguish scholars of Greek have to say about that.

Arndt & Gingrich – The original meaning of Psallo was ‘pluck’, ‘play’ (a stringed instrument); this persisted at least to the time of Lucian (cf Parasite 17).

Thayer – b. …to twang the strings of a musical instrument…; and absolutely to play on a string instrument, to play the harp etc.

Trench – Psalm – properly a touching, and then a touching of the harp or other stringed instruments with the finger or with the plectrum…, was next the instrument itself, and last of all the song sung with this musical accompaniment. It is in this latest stage of its meaning that we find the word adopted in the Septuagint; and to this agree the ecclesiastical definitions of it;
And then he quotes the early Church Fathers.

All of these "quotations" are--as far as I have been able to do THEIR work and chase them down--are deliberate lies.

Chris: ‘…as far as I have been able to…’? That does not inspire too much confidence now, does it? I’d rather depend on the scholarship of people like Trench, and Thayer.

VINCENT'S WORD STUDIES - EPHESIANS 5

Some think that the verb has here its original signification of singing with an instrument. This is its dominant sense in the Septuagint, and both Basil and Gregory of Nyssa define a psalm as implying instrumental accompaniment; and Clement of Alexandria, while forbidding the use of the flute in the agapae, permitted the harp. [Vincent goofs also: this was in PRIVATE MEALS or entertainment. And we PROVED to you that Clement identified the HARP as Christ and His Word]

Chris: So Vincent goofed because he disagreed with you.

Finally, I am not advocating the use of IM in your congregation. Sing acappella if that suits you fine.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
4.152.81.35

Don't ride the HORSE in church!

March 16 2006, 1:36 PM 

There is NO literature where PSALLO means "play the harp." You PULL a string ONLY WITH YOUR FINGERS and NOT with a plectrum. Guitar picks and drums and organs and flutes are SPECIFICIALLY EXCLUDED by the definition of PSALLO.

Lucian in Parasites wrote "It is impossible to pipe without a pipe or to PSALLEIN without a lyre or to ride without a horse." (Approx 160AD)

Ken: He DOES NO say that a PSALM demands an INSTRUMENT. He said: you cannot PLUCK unless you have something to PLUCK.

Lucian simply means that one cannot psallein without a musical instrument! IOW, no instrument, no psallein.


Psallein is NOT psallo: Psallein MEANS to PLAY A HARP or Lyre. You cannot PLAY a lyre WITHOUT a lyre. Is that hard? You cannot RIDE a horse without a HORSE. I hope you understand that RIDING A HORSE did not mean riding a HORSE? Understand?

LYRIC poetry was written for the LYRE. Isn't that cute. Paul didn't write LYRIC POETRY but NARRATIVE. Narrative is intended to be NARATED. That's even cuter. Even the Psalms are metrical narrative intended to be RECITED.

Ken: You CANNOT use Lucian without CONFESSING that you INTEND to use music to PLUCK the fleece from the FAT HEADS, SIMPLETONS and especially WIDOWS on wellfare.

Lucian of Samosata wrote in ATTIC GREEK and not Koine.

It doesn't matter who quotes Lucian you cannot have him speaking a form of GREEK a hundred years or so after Paul.

Chris: Strange logic. Lucian may have used IM for the wrong reasons but that does not mean that when we quote him on the usage of a word (psallein) we have to used IM the same way he does. Ken is telling us IM has been used in the wrong place and for the wrong reasons. That is not scriptural but cultural reason for rejecting IM.


No, that is ken DEFINING the meaning of PSALLO. Lucian did not say PSALLO and expect anyone to read his mind and MAKE MUSIC. Lucian, like most people selling tales, used ATTIC which was the language of the Aristocrats. This does not mean that PSALLO still meant PLAY A HARP because it never did.

Lucian was describing the ORACLES. An oracle is a MEGA CHURCH or any church which uses ENTERTAINMENT to get MONEY: Apollo at Delphi had the most famous. Apollo is Abaddon or Apollyon and his MUSES or LOCUSTS will go back into hell with him. Peter said that ALL SPEAKING must be as the ORACLE OF GOD and that means to recite THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN.

The "worship leaders" decided how to FLEECE simple minded people. The BEST way was to play musical instruments and make them THINK (he, he, he) that the gods or DEMONS were INSIDE. John defined these ORACLES with their unlawful LAW OF GIVING when he defined the HOLY WHORE as the end-time church. The message is that music does MIND CONTROL. Since the church uses NARRATIVE--even the Psalms--for TEACHING then it NARRATES and does not grow LYRICAL which scholars note as both a MARK and PRODUCER of effeminate males.

And since Lucian was writing in Attic Greek and not Koine (I presume you know that Attic was the foundation for the development of Koine) why bother to tell us about the wayward practices IM was used by Lucian. Just prove to us that the meaning differs. Hey, Arndt & Gingrich and Edward Robinson did not know better for referring us to Lucian.

Ken accused Tom Burgess of using "quoted" resources OUT OF CONTEXT which has to be DELIBERATE.

Ken: The argument is that PSALLO meant to play an instrument AFTER Paul.

Chris: Nope, that is NOT the argument. The argument is that Psallo did not change its meaning to exclude an instrument by the time Paul used it.


PSALLO never included INSTRUMENTS. It means to twang or pluck. You could ALWAYS pluck a harp string but the word PLUCK never told you WHAT to pluck. A related PLUCK means to PLUCK the pubic hair for the "minister of the gods" so he would be ready when Alexander the Great PLUCKED his harp to GROOM him.

When Tom quotes the RESOURCES to prove PSALLO he does not tell you that you that the writers ALWAYS tell you WHAT is being PLUCKED. Neither does he tell you that all of the resources point to older males PLUCKING a harp like Romeo to attract MALE Julets.

You are pretty bright to know what arguments I have heard? THE argument from Burgess and all of the ditto heads IS that Lucian of Samosato used psallo to mean play an instrument AFTER Paul wrote to the Ephesians. I have the book! Johnson, Knowles all copy the same stuff."

Ken: Psallo NEVER means to play an instrument, much less does it mean SING and PLAY and name an instrument.

Chris: Lets see what 4 distinguish scholars of Greek have to say about that.

Arndt & Gingrich The original meaning of Psallo was pluck, play (a stringed instrument); this persisted at least to the time of Lucian (cf Parasite 17)


I think the PARENTHESIS means that you can PLUCK a stringed instrument. It always meant to PLUCK but Lucien used the word psallein. YOU CANNOT PLUCK A LYRE WITHOUT A LYRE.

Response to written and posted letters: The Source for Arndt and Gingrich did not make the mistake

We readers know that Arndt made a bad mistake because HE JUST WANTED TO DO IT. Here is some real true history:

"It was so kind of you to take the time to make your inquiry regarding the word psallo. I see by comparison with Bauer's first edition that the editors of Arndt and Gingrich have incorporated the obvious Old Testament meaning into the metaphorical usage of the New Testament.

"Bauer did not make this mistake, and we will be sure to correct it in the revision. I doubt whether the archaeologists can establish the use of the harp in early Christian services." (Bales, 114)
"In other words, Gingrich admitted that the harp no more inheres in psallo than it does in the English word sing. Furthermore, the phrase, which was in parenthesis, was not included in their translation of psallo in James 5:13)

"Gingrich told J. W. Roberts in a conversation in St. Louis that the insertion was his private opinion. McCord announced that the change would be made but it was not." (Bales, p. 115)
"In other words, Gingrich admitted that the harp no more inheres in psallo than it does in the English word sing. Furthermore, the phrase, which was in parenthesis, was not included in their translation of psallo in James 5:13)

"Gingrich told J. W. Roberts in a conversation in St. Louis that the insertion was his private opinion. McCord announced that the change would be made but it was not." (Bales, p. 115)


Thayer b. to twang the strings of a musical instrument; and absolutely to play on a string instrument, to play the harp etc.

You should NEVER too busy to quote the WHOLE truth.

Thayer: a. To pluck off, pull out: the hair. b. To cause to vibrate by touching, to twang; spec. to touch or strike the chord, to touch the strings of a musical instrument, to play the harp, etc.; Sept. for zamar and much oftener for nagan; to sing to the music of the harp.

In the N.T. to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praise of God in song, Jas.5:13; Eph.5:13; Rom.15:9; 1 Cor.14:15 .


g5567.Thayer.jpg


Trench Psalm properly a touching, and then a touching of the harp or other stringed instruments with the finger or with the plectrum, was next the instrument itself, and last of all the song sung with this musical accompaniment. It is in this latest stage of its meaning that we find the word adopted in the Septuagint; and to this agree the ecclesiastical definitions of it;

I don't intend to be arrogant: it must be congenital but I have better resources than Trench etal. No one will ever find ANY text in the Bible or ANY literature where PSALLO means to PLAY THE HARP. The word means what the CONTEXT says. If you PLUCK a harp string then you make a SOUND, but it is not MAKING MUSIC IN CHURCH. If you play a series of three tones then you make melody but NOT harmony. If you twang your bowstring to send a SINGING arrow then you are making WAR and that is where you find most of the PLUCKING going on other than homosexual males or prostitutes.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Jun 5, 2017 10:29 PM


 
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Chris
(no login)
61.6.116.252

Psallo

March 22 2006, 1:09 AM 

Ken: Psallo NEVER means to play an instrument, much less does it mean SING and PLAY and name an instrument.

Arndt & Gingrich – The original meaning of Psallo was ‘pluck’, ‘play’ (a stringed instrument); this persisted at least to the time of Lucian (cf Parasite 17)

Ken: We readers know that Arndt made a bad mistake because HE JUST WANTED TO DO IT.

Chris: The following letter was written by Gingrich in reply to Tom Burgess.

Apr. 29, 1962
The verb ya,llw “psallô” originally meant to “pluck” anything, then to play a musical instrument by plucking. It is true that by N.T. times the emphasis had shifted to “sing,” with or without instrumental accompaniment. The Liddell-Scott-Jones lexicon & Greek gives the meaning “sing to a harp” for the N.T. passages Eph. 5:19 and 1Cor 14:15. The Moulton and Milligan lexicon gives simply “sing” for the N.T. In our translation of Bauer’s lexicon, Dr. Arndt and I gave the meaning as “sing (to the accompaniment of a harp); meaning that the singing could be with or without accompaniment. It seems to me that you cannot exclude the possibility of accompaniment in the N.T. passages, since ya,llw still means "play on the harp" in Lucian, who wrote in the second century A.D. I must say that I regard this controversy over the matter as unimportant.
Sincerely yours,
F. W. Gingrich


Wow, we see Gingrich referring to Lucian again. Strange that he did not mention the orgies related to the word psallein or that Lucian wrote in Attic.

Thayer – b. …to twang the strings of a musical instrument…; and absolutely to play on a string instrument, to play the harp etc.

Ken: You should NEVER too busy to quote the WHOLE truth.

In the N.T. to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praise of God in song, Jas.5:13; Eph.5:13; Rom.15:9; 1 Cor.14:15 .

Chris: I had absolutely no doubt that you would complete the quotation for me. But I wished you did more. That sentence ‘In the NT to sing…’ is supposed to inform that psallo no longer includes IM?

Suffice to say, Thayer uses letters like ‘a’ and ‘b’ to distinguish between two definitions while The American Heritage Dictionary uses numbers instead. And ‘In the N.T. to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praise of God in song,’ is under ‘b’ defined as ‘to cause to vibrate by touching, to twang,…and absolutely to play on a stringed instrument…

But let us look at the word psalmos in Thayer’s work. Thayer repeats what he defined in the word ‘psallo’, ie, ‘a striking, a twanging…; spec. a striking the chords of a musical instrument; hence a pious song, a psalm. Then Thayer points us to Bishop Lightfoot’s commentary on Colossians. What do we see?

Thayer’s reproduced Lightfoot’s commentary on Col 3:16 in the word ‘hymnos’.


[Syn. u[mnoj( yalmo,j( wv|dh,: wv|dh, is the generic term; yalm. and u[mn. are specific, the former designating a song which took its general character from the Old Testament ‘Psalms’ (although not restricted to them. see 1Co. xiv. 15, 26), the latter a song of praise. “While the leading idea of yalm. is a musical accompaniment, and that of u[mn. praise to God, wv|dh, is the general word for a song, whether of praise or on any other subject. Thus it is quite possible for the same song to be at once u[mnoj( yalmo,j and wv|dh” (Bp. Lightft on Col. 3:16). The words occur together in Col. 3:16 and Eph. 5:19. See Trench, Syn. § lxxviii.]


While the leading idea of psalm is a musical accompaniment, hymns praise to God…’ (More of the same later). Thus, how do we get the idea that ‘In the NT to sing…’ means singing without IM?

I looked at AT Robertson’s ‘Word Pictures in the New Testament’ vol 4 page 505.

“With Psalms (psalmois, the Psalms in the OT originally with musical accompaniment), hymns (hymnois, praises to God composed by the Christians like 1 Tim 3:16), spiritual songs (oidais pneumatikais, general description of all whether with or without instrumental accompaniment). The same song can have all 3 words applied to it.”

Please notice the similarities between Robertson’s and Lightfoot’s definition.

Payne, O. E., Instrumental Music is Scriptural, 1920, pp 281-283 mentions an interview he had with AT Robertson.

“Responding to the questions as to the meaning of psallo, and whether, just prior to the New Testament period, it had lost it's earlier meaning 'to sing,' the Doctor reached to the shelves in his study which contain, perhaps, three thousand volumes which specialize in relation to his profession, got a book, and, for answer to my twofold query, read as follows, translating the Greek text as he proceeded.


370 A. D. Gregory of Nyssa on Psalm 103 (I., p. 295).

Psalm (psalmos) is the melody through the musical instrument (the organon).

Song (ode) is the melody (melos) or music with words which takes place by means of the mouth.

Hymn (humnos) is the praise offered to God for the good things that we possess.”

Henry Alford in his commentary on Ephesians refers to the comments of Gregory of Nyssa.in Migne Vol I, page 493:

"The psalm [psalmos] is the melody produced on the musical instrument.

The song [ode] is the utterance of the melody through the mouth with words.

Hymn [humnos] is the praise offered to God for the good things that we possess."


This will be my final post on the issue. God bless you.

I can be contacted at chris_ooi@hotmail.com



 
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Ken
(no login)
4.152.99.219

Re: Psallo

March 22 2006, 7:04 PM 

At no time did PSALLO ever mean PLAY AN INSTRUMENT. Never, ever!

The resources which build on existing definitions and assuredly do not do original research can ONLY show you how a word is USED. That does not DEFINE IT.

PSALLO meant to PULL with the fingers and let go to leave a mark or make a sound which was "musical" when connected to the BOW. However, a single TWANG doeth not music make: not even melody because you need several SINGLE tones in a sequence.

PSALLO excluded using a PICK or instrument like the favorite golden plectron.. You CANNOT psallo with a guitar pick or piano or organ or drum or flute.

The word PSALLO therefore is NEVER used with anything other than the lyre or bow. It never appears with a FLUTE.

What the DEFINITIONS means is that PSALLO often appears as the PLUCKING "pulling with the fingers" connected to the HARP. If I say STRUM that means nothing until I tell you WHAT to strum.

That is why you CANNOT ever find a Bible passage where Psallo or Zamar is used to say "pluck a harp." It simply CANNOT be done. In the Bible you ALWAYS have three components if you want to SING AND PLAY THE HARP: 1. Sing and 2. play or pluck and 3 define WHAT is to be plucked.

If you are going to quote scholars I need for you to give me the scholar, the name of their book and the chapter and verse. Then, I can ALWAYS as I have done to Burgess, Johnson, Knowles etal prove that thy simply quote quotes of quotes and have NEVER read the material and ALWAYS fail to tell you what was happening when Alexander the Great PLUCKED and the name of WHAT he plucked and the Purpose of his plucking. Which in all of Burgess PROOFS for Psallo have to do with older males plucking the harp to prepare the "youth minister" for pederasty.

I can find MOST of the original writings the WORD COMPLIERS have put into books (Webster didn't DEFINE) and I challenge you or anyone to find ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE where PSALLO means PLAY THE HARP. Then, the definitons are absolute: you CANNOT use that to apply to anything which does not have STRINGS and you are OUTLAWED from using even your fingernails: you must PULL and LET GO to make a thwack or twang which is NOT music or melody.

Similar words were used to pluck the HEART STRINGS and that is Paul's DIRECT COMMAND. IN the heart or WITH the heart means a PLACE because Jesus died to remove PLACES built with human hands or worship PERFORMED by human hands. That pretty well leaves out musical instruments and "the idolatry of talent."

 
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Judge Knott
(no login)
199.227.205.202

Modern Grek definitians

March 22 2006, 6:05 PM 

What did "Psallo" mean at the time of the writing? When the Holy Spirit cause men to write the epistles in the first century, what was the meaning of the word "psallo" then?

"Alexander Campbell had the following to say: "…lexicons or Greek dictionaries are not to be depended on, inasmuch as there is none of them more than five hundred years old. So, then all the scriptures are of doubtful import, as far as dictionaries are concerned, for none of the Greek dictionaries can explain a single word in them, because they are only five hundred years old." end Source: The Christian Baptist, VOL. 6, p.277; ed. Alexander Campbell, 1828.


Judge Knott

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
4.152.99.219

They ALL lie and CANNOT tell the truth.

March 22 2006, 9:39 PM 

That's perfectly ok: Run Away Cannot Play. That matters not a little because hundreds or thousands will read the TRUE HISTORY without all of the whiney piney.

People also pervert Clement of Alexandria. While absolutely prohibiting instrument IN CHURCH also chided people who left church where they HYMNED TO GOD and went out to a festival OUT OF CHURCH and allowed music to be played. The AGAPAE was NOT worship services. While even in the privacy of your lunch time when you fed others he OUTLAWED the flute and said that if you use the lyre "you are not sinning."

"The noun psalmos 'psalm' (Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16, 1 Cor 14:16) which is etymologically kin to this verb psallo, is used in the New Testament of a religious song in general, having the character of an Old Testament Psalm. Some think that the verb has its original sense in the Septuagint, and both Basil and Gregory of Nyssa define Alexandria,
    while forbidding the use of the FLUTE in the Agapae,
    permitted the HARP [in the Agapae] (Vincent, vol. 3, p. 269)
As late as the fourth century, Gregory, bishop of Nyssa, gave this definition of psalm: "There is a distinction between psalm, ode, praise, hymn, and prayer.

A psalm is the MELODY of a musical instrument;


You will notice if you READ CAREFULLY that a PSALM was METRICAL and could fit the NOTES of a harp or lyre or human RECITING. In a Psalm or SONG the "first instrument of choice is the human voice."

He DID NOT say that a PSALM is a PSALM sung to an INSTRUMENT. By definition, poems are poetic and are METRICAL as is much of the Old Testament. That means that you can READ the psalms as in CANTILLATION in order to teach. This MELODY was the "normal range of human speech."

If you PSALM and the ODE and it was remotely the TRUTH that a Psalm DEMANDS an instrument as Burgess insists, then you would have to HOLD YOUR HARP and not play it (each must have a harp) while you SING or ODE. NOW, that is technical, legalistic PATTERNISM.

and ode is a melodious expression made by the mouth with words.

A little later in the same treatise he wrote:"The psalterion is a musical instrument making its sound from the upper parts of iits construction and the music from this instrument is called a psalm." (p. 29)


It can be called a PSALM but it is NOT a Psalm. The sound which comes from the UPPER part of an instrument (like the human voice) was considered acceptable. However, in SINGING, you must also use the LOWER part of the human instrument to get the diaphasion sounds. You must also do VERY LOUD and this was considered impore.

Fragments from Hippolytus explains:

This book of Psalms before us has also been called by the prophet the "Psalter," because, as they say,

the psaltery alone among musical instruments gives back the sound from above when the brass is struck, and not from beneath, after the manner of others. In order, therefore, that those who understand it may be zealous to carry out the analogy of such an appellation, and may also look above,

from which direction its melody comes-for this reason he has styled it the Psalter.
For it is entirely the VOICE and UTTERANCE of the most Holy Spirit.


That is why Paul COMMANDED that which is written, the Word of Christ or be filled with THE SPIRIT. If you SPEAK on your own then Jesus defines you as "sons of the Devil." That means that ALL of the experts who deliberately do the work of Satan and sow massive discord do not HAVE A CLUE: they just publish books knowing in the imagery of Paul that "fools love to be fooled."

If you then sing SPIRITUAL SONGS composed by the little singy-clangy shortchanged on both words and writing skill then you CLAIM and give AID AND COMFORT to someone who CLAIMS to be more inspired than THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN and are a LOST CO-CONSPIRATOR claiming that he can be your MEDIATOR and lead you into God's presence. That means he is standing IN THE HOLY PLACE claiming to be God: it's called the Abomination of Desolation which in the Temple was sex and music worshiping Zeus (they call him Je Zeus or hail Zeus). How long? Not long! The Lamps have already been put out because of the musical sorcerers (Rev 18:22f)

 
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John Waddey
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
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INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC AND THE OLD TESTAMENT

February 7 2008, 4:04 AM 

INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC AND THE OLD TESTAMENT


We worship God in song without the use of instruments of music for three basic reasons.

  1. Christ did not authorize it. In his Great Commission, he said, "All authority is given unto me in heaven and on earth. Go, make disciples of all nations....teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you (Matt. 28:18-20). If you read the New Testament carefully you will notice that not once do you find any instruction for the church to praise God with instrumental music. You do however find several references to singing in worship such as the passage in Eph. 5:19-20. Remember, Christ is head over all things to the church (Eph. 1:22). He has all authority and we are to teach men to observe all things whatsoever he commanded us (Matt. 28:18-20).

  2. We are committed to worshiping and serving Christ as did the first Christians. Historically we know that it was some 600 years before instrumental music was introduced into Christian worship. It was only after churches had drifted far from the teachings of Christ and his apostles and had grown into what is now known as the Roman Catholic church that this practice was introduced in 670 AD. It caused such a furor that it was withdrawn and not unto the 12th century did it become a common practice. The Greek Orthodox church did not allow the used of instrumental music until the last century...and even now in some areas of the world they still do not use it. John Wesley, founder of the Methodist church wrote that he had no objection to there being instruments of music in their chapels so long as they were neither seen or heard during worship. John Calvin, father of the Reformed and Presbyterian churches, called instrumental music a relic of popery, of the same character as beads and incense. Charles Spurgeon, the greatest of all Baptist preachers, refused to allow any instruments to be used with the singing in his congregation in London. This list could be extended. We are not unique in our position.

  3. Our Bible consists of two grand divisions, Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament was given to the Hebrew people to regulate their faith and practice. It is from God and inspired and inerrant, but it was intended for that ancient form of worship (See Deut. 5:1-3). The New Testament was given to regulate the worship and service of those who follow Christ. Note the following verses that tell us that the Old Testament is no longer our standard for faith and practice. Paul explains to us that in his death upon the cross, Jesus fulfilled that Old Law, took it out of the way, nailing it to the cross. He then exhorted us to "Let no man judge you" respecting its ordinances. Other verses that teach this lesson are Eph. 2:14-14-15; II Cor. 3:7-11; Heb. 8:6-13. The Hebrews were given specific authority from God to use instrumental music in their worship. "Hezekiah...set the Levites in the house of Jehovah with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandments of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet; for the commandment was of Jehovah by his prophets." Thus when they praised God with instruments, they did what God had authorized them to do. If we had such authority expressed in the New Testament, we could do the same. But we don't find such.

When we go to the Old Testament to find approval for instruments of music, we could also go there to find approval for burning incense in worship, for a tribal, hereditary priesthood, animal sacrifices, circumcision, polygamy and other interesting practices. They all stand or fall together.

If you had been in Jerusalem in the first century and were privileged to worship with those first disciples do you think you would have had instrumental music? Today we wish to worship as they did and as the New Testament authorizes us to do.


___________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: johnwaddey@aol.com

 
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Servant
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Re: INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC AND THE OLD TESTAMENT

February 7 2008, 5:43 PM 

Hey Donnie, and Ken, William, and JW.


 
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Rancor/JimmyJoe
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"Classic" Ken

June 3 2017, 10:21 AM 


Another classic from Ken. AMAZING...!

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: "Classic" Ken

June 3 2017, 4:13 PM 

No one gets free will in adding worship teams pseuto teams or "go all the way."

Amos 7:8 And the LORD said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumbline. Then said the Lord, Behold, I will set a plumbline in the midst of my people Israel: I will not again pass by them any more:

In Latin the MARK is a CUP for dipping wine!!
Rev. 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. [Desolation]

One of the punishments which is ANTI-Logos and anti-Christ is In partic., an exciting of indignation by rhetorical art: “indignatio est oratio

And having to listen to PSALLO being visualized and actualized.

Verg. A. 9.630

Of such loud insolence and words of shame
Ascanius brooked no more, but laid a shaft
athwart his bowstring, and with arms stretched wide
took aim, first offering suppliant vow to Jove:
“Almighty Jupiter, thy favor show
to my bold deed! So to thy shrine I bear
gifts year by year, and to thine altars lead
a bull with gilded brows [Athemated], snow-white, and tall
as his own dam, what time his youth begins
to lower his horns and fling the sand in air.”
The Father heard, and from a cloudless sky
thundered to leftward, while the deadly bow
resounded and the arrow's fearful song
hissed from the string; it struck unswervingly
the head of Remulus and clove its way
deep in the hollows of his brow.
“Begone!
Proud mocker at the brave! Lo, this reply
twice-vanquished Phrygians to Rutulia send.”
Ascanius said no more. The Teucrians
with deep-voiced shout of joy applaud, and lift
their exultation starward.

There was also a vessel for wine, a ladle hollowed out of one single large precious stone, with a golden handle
Also a FIRE PAN

Amos 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer FRUIT. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

[linked image]

And then up a million Jews who refused to obey AND FLEE were consumed by the strongers or cast into Hell--just outside of Jerusalem along with those thousands of harps.

"Those the gods destroy they first make MAD" or Ecstatic in the words of C. Leonard Allen. That is why they sound all of those musical instruments as they go in procession BACK to Jerusalem to BURN THEM SOME INFANTS.



 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: "Classic" Ken

June 3 2017, 4:37 PM 

The mark of ACAPPELLA as the "scapegoat" for the great offering of all GOATS.

Verg. G. 2.388

Hedges too must be woven and all beasts
Barred entrance, chiefly while the leaf is young
And witless of disaster; for therewith,
Beside harsh winters and o'erpowering sun,
Wild buffaloes and pestering goats for ay
Besport them, sheep and heifers glut their greed.
Nor cold by hoar-frost curdled, nor the prone
Dead weight of summer upon the parched crags,
So scathe it, as the flocks with venom-bite
Of their hard tooth, whose gnawing scars the stem.
For no offence but this to Bacchus bleeds
The goat at every altar, and old plays
Upon the stage find entrance; therefore too
The sons of Theseus through the country-side—
Hamlet and crossway—set the prize of wit,
And on the smooth sward over oiled skins
Dance in their tipsy frolic. Furthermore
The Ausonian swains, a race from Troy derived,
Make merry with rough rhymes and boisterous mirth,
Grim masks of hollowed bark assume, invoke
Thee with glad hymns, O Bacchus, and to thee
Hang puppet-faces on tall pines to swing.
Hence every vineyard teems with mellowing fruit,
Till hollow vale o'erflows, and gorge profound,
Where'er the god hath turned his comely head.
Therefore to Bacchus duly will we sing
Meet honour with ancestral hymns, and cates
And dishes bear him; and the doomed goat
Led by the horn shall at the altar stand,
Whose entrails rich on hazel-spits we'll roast.

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Atrahasis: The Creation of Man in Babyylon: the Atrahasis account

June 9 2017, 11:50 PM 

Atrahasis and Human Creation.

http://www.piney.com/Atrahasis.html

When the Gods did the work they grew weary and decided to create man. This concept appears in all legalism.

This later Akkadian version of the flood story and the creation of humanity and fits between the Sumerian version and the Babylonian version in the Epic of Gilgamesh. This following outline is from "The Treasures of Darkness" by Thorkild Jacobsen, Yale University. Press, 1967)


The MARK of their creation out of MUD or DUST is that they always disturbed the "gods" by drums and other instruments.

We have noted and noted that while the world thinks Christians are fools for their almost-universal theology, theologians claim that they don't depend on the Bible anymore.

We have noted that A Church of Christ is built upon or EDUCATED by the PROPHETS AND APOSTLES who left us a "memory." Jesus defines "Scripture" as the Prophets and other prophecies concerning Him. That should not be strange for anyone having read Isaish 49 where Jacob quarantines the godly Israelites from both the covenant and synagogues of the Cursed Levites. God later abandoned them to worship the starry host. Jacob pointed to SHILOH meaning REST as the place for God's Disciples quarantined from the usual "worship rituals" now patterned as far as "legal" on the Law "given because of transgression."

It is not possible for a disciple to miss the fact that Genesis is the OBVERSE side of the Babylonian Coin. The Babylon side will and is defined by the speakers, singers and instrument players John called SORCERERS the exact description of the original Babylon Mother of Harlots.

After Israel fell from grace which was beyond redemption for that generation, God sentenced the to skip through Canaan on their way to captivity and death where they began their WANDERING which really began in Syria and Abraham was a GEN or one of the nations and not a Jew.

As a result Moses wrote an INVERTED version of what they had begun originally reading on clay tablets.

Gilgamesh is another long version.



 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Instrumental Music

June 12 2017, 8:51 PM 

Pince the Piper Phaed. 5.7
Princeps tibicen. [flute player]
A little, friv'lous, abject mind,
Pleased with the rabble, puff'd with wind,
When once, as fast as pride presumes,
Itself with vanity it plumes,

Is by fond lightness brought with ease
To any ridicule you please.
One Prince, a piper to the play,
Was rather noted in his way,


As call'd upon to show his art,
Whene'er Bathyllus did his part,
He being at a certain fair,
(I do not well remember where,)

While they pull'd down the booth in haste,
Not taking heed, his leg displaced,
He from the scaffold fell so hard-
(Would he his pipes had rather marr'd!

Though they, poor fellow! were to him
As dear almost as life and limb).
Borne by the kind officious crowd,
Home he's conducted, groaning loud.

Some months elapsed before he found
Himself recover'd of his wound:
Meantime, according to their way,
The droll frequenters of the play

Had a great miss of him, whose touch
The dancers' spirits raised so much.
A certain man of high renown
Was just preparing for the town

Some games the mob to entertain,
When Prince began to walk again;
Whom, what with bribes and pray'rs, his grace?
Prevail'd upon to show his face

In this performance, by all means-
And while he waits behind the scenes,
A rumour through the house is spread,
By certain, that "the piper's dead."

Others cried out, "The man is here,
And will immediately appear."
The curtain draws, the lightnings flash,
The gods speak out their usual trash.

An ode, not to the Piper known,
Was to the chorus leader shown,
Which he was order'd to repeat,
And which was closed with this conceit--

"Receive with joy, O loyal Rome,
Thy Prince just rescued from his tomb."
They all at once stand up and clap,
At which my most facetious chap

Kisses his hand, and scrapes and bows
To his good patrons in the house.
First the equestrian order smoke
The fool's mistake, and high in joke,

Command the song to be encored;
Which ended, flat upon the board
The Piper falls, the knights acclaim;
The people think that Prince's aim

Is for a crown of bays at least.
Now all the seats perceived the jest,
And with his bandage white as snow,
White frock, white pumps, a perfect beauty

Proud of the feats he had achieved,
And these high honours he received,
With one unanimous huzza,
Poor Prince was kick'd out of the play.


Definition of terms follow.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Jun 12, 2017 10:35 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Notes for the above

June 12 2017, 9:08 PM 

[linked image]

 
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