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Re: Questions

April 19 2006, 4:17 PM 

So, Would a SOLO be OK?

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Judge Knott
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April 20 2006, 10:46 AM 

It would be a violation of the scriptures to ask all Christians to remain silent while Bee, Dee, or Kie.. sings hymn number 711. Why would we wish to hinder the worship of Christians by not allowing them to participate?

Would it be of any benefit to have a debate about this?

Judge Knott

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Re: Solo

April 20 2006, 8:42 PM 

It would be a violation of scripture to not allow them to sing at all. Having a song or part of a song where only part of the group sings does not violate any scripture. It's very different from our tradition, and even though I wouldn't like it personally, it's not unscriptural.

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Judge Knott
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April 21 2006, 8:36 AM 

While the Scriptures do demand that "one speak" at a time I have not found a Scripture that suggest the same with singing.

Maybe you have been attending the "singing classes" and not the "Bible classes." I know that the "singing classes" promote "harmony" and "beautiful voices" above all else.

Judge Knott

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Re: Solo

April 21 2006, 11:37 AM 

...or maybe you don't know what you're talking about and place your presuppositions on my thoughts.

I have been in a service where there was a solo once. One time. I was visiting a church in Texas while on vacation. I was uncomfortable, and I didn't like it. However, I don't think it was unscriptural. If anything, scripture seems to suggest it's fine. It says that part of our singing is to "teach and admonish" each other. In a class setting, not everyone can teach. Perhaps there is a part of our singing that could be quietly listening to others.

Again, I don't like it personally, but it's not unscriptural.

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Judge Knott
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April 21 2006, 1:19 PM 

B: "I don't like it personally, but it's not unscriptural."

Judge says: Personally I do like solos's, quartets, trio's, and choirs. I love the music at Branson and Nashville. But my feelings and desires have to be left outside the assembly.

Did you notice that Paul, although in prison, did not sing solo. There was another Christian also in the prison who sang with him.

Christians do not sing alone, when other Christians are present.

B., I appreciate the way your write. Even though you disagree your post are warm and friendly. Thank you.

Judge Knott

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Solo

April 21 2006, 12:21 PM 

The READER or PREACHER does the SOLO when he "recites" THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN or the WORD of God. It doesn't have PARTS like Chicken Nuggets.

However, it is a fact that "lining out" which is still practiced was done WITHOUT books when the leader read a part and the congregation responded. They didn't do that as a RITUAL or "praze sanging" but to LEARN the Word of God. That is the meaning of TEACH or preach or admonish.

Everyone could go home to kitchen or plow and sing the text all week TO THEMSELVES.

Making up SCRIPTURE in the form of SONGS did not happen prior to the year 373. We have a historical record of WHAT CHANGED and therefore know WHAT THEY did BEFORE they changed. Isn't that amazingly amazing?

I knew an old preacher who attended the Nashville Bible School (LU) who frequently sang like that. But if a MALE man gets up and goes into an orgasmic fit singing "itzy bitzy erotic praise songs" te early Classical writers said that they "honeyed and feathered him and rode him out of town backward sitting on another ass."

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Donnie Cruz
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Who is the boss: “Worship Leader” or “Preacher”?

April 26 2006, 6:58 AM 

We may even add another choice to the question above—or “The Shepherds”?

The Sunday sermonette may last no more than 10 minutes, a full-length sermon 20 minutes maybe. But the entire predominantly MUSICAL worship “hour” may last 90 minutes—that includes the Communion, as well as the saints’ contribution that the shepherds have decided to use [how much of it] for the “Worship Leader” expense. So, in post-modern “religiosity,” considering the high visibility of the men (or women) on stage, how influential the “Worship Leader” must be in comparison to all the others! Are you with me so far?

The discussion or debate can be endless. But here is an example to consider. This is in regard to “becoming a member” at a church that believes in immersion “to accept” forgiveness of sins. Instructions include: (1) “Come Forward [an opportunity is given at the close of each weekend worship service by {…} to come forward and become a member of {…}]”; (2) “Talk with a Decision Guide [{…} will introduce you to {…}]”

Prior to (3) “Be Baptized,” the church’s site states: “If that [talking with a decision guide] is not a convenient option, instructions are given by the worship leader just before the closing prayer about where you may go to speak with someone….”

See how influential the “Worship Leader” on stage throughout the long “worship hour” … besides wagging his arms [and legs at times when s/he gets really charismatic]?


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Judge Knott
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Amen to Donnie's post

April 26 2006, 11:54 AM 

Donnie, You have written a post that all Christians need to read. The worship leader has become just that, at some locations,- s/he is the most important individual in the congregation. A preacher may be dismissed or replaced long before a worship leader. A worship leader get more time in the pulpit than the preacher. A worship leader gets more public praise for his ability to lead and the selection of his songs than the preacher does for his sermons and hospital visits. A worship leader gets more time off to attend seminars then the preacher gets to hold meetings elsewhere. A worship leader often has a bigger web page or blog to the preachers "none."

A preacher must be the good example in the community. But the worship leader can go to the public beach, the tanning salon, the beauty parlor, buy a six pack beer at the grocery store, yell at the umpire when his child is called out, yet he is still a wonderful leader in the church.

Judge Knott

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Jack Mann
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Re: Who is the boss: “Worship Leader” or “Preacher”?

April 26 2006, 12:34 PM 

Was wondering what songs the Ethiopian eunuch sang in his heart after being baptized. Did he sing to himself or to another? Did he become "preacher" of the church in Ethiopia? Did he use unfermented wine in the Lord's Supper? How many cups did he use? Was he excommunicated for being a "Change Agent by those who would become "boss?" If so, from what local church body? Was it possible that he died in a charriot wreck before he could return to Ethiopia? If so, not being affiliated with a local church, was the "queens treasurer" saved?

Did Saul of Tarsus unite with the church at Jerusalem before going into "Arabia"? According to Galatians 1:17 he did not. If so, how could he have been a standing member in the church since he missed the assembly for three years? (Gal 1:18; Heb. 10:25).

When Saul was in the desert for three years: How many times did Saul miss the Lord's Supper? Did he sing psalms in his heart without an instrument? Since Ephesians and Colossians had not been written. Did he, being a Jew, use the harp in song in making a melody in his heart (as written in the psalms)? Could Saul carry a tune in a jar? Or could the tent maker play the harp like David? Did he carry a "pitch pipe?"
Did he ever sit in the balcony of a local church and look down with contempt on the "praise singers" and wish he could sing, or yet, bring down fire upon the melody makers?

"And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, why does your Master eat with publicans and sinners?"

Many in the Church of Christ has forgotten His answer, and gone to sit in the balcony.....
Hear again the Master:
"They that be whole need not a physican, but they that are sick. But go and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous (out of the balcony) but sinners to repent."
Now, you may have to research the Old Testament to get Jesus' message here.....Those of you who sit in the balcony can exegesis the text for us sinners.....

"Amazing grace, how sweet the sound"....! Nah.....that was written by a "Change Agent," can't be true!

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Donnie Cruz
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“Where’s the beef?”

April 27 2006, 8:41 AM 


It appears that your post above is a conglomerate of incoherent sermonettes that you have learned from the change agents. You could be “speaking in tongues” still—your prior “Assembly of God” upbringing is still showing … or am I speaking of someone else?

My post was about the power struggle between two church leaders. And why there is too much emphasis on musical performances in a few of the churches’ gatherings. Maybe, you should search the scriptures more and find out if the gathering of the saints is all about music and the rah-rah-rahs, as well as the display of musical idolatry.

I cannot envision the first century congregations spending most of their time with the man-designated “Worship Leader” and his musicians … rather than teaching the gospel and fervently searching the scriptures as the Bereans did. Hint: begin your search from the time of the establishment of the church in the book of Acts of the Apostles through the epistles.

So, who do you think is winning the “worship war”?


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Judge Knott
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who'e the boss

April 27 2006, 4:22 PM 

No question about it. When it comes to the assembly Christians are to submit one to the other. There are no boss's.

Jack, you wrote: "...for I am not come to call the righteous (out of the balcony) but sinners to repent."

The Judge replies: And where might this Scripture be, sir? I recall the little righteous man being called out of a tree but out of a balcony?

In christ,


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So, who do you think is winning the “worship war”?

April 27 2006, 7:42 PM 

So, who do you think is winning the “worship war”?

The answer is easy...........SATAN!!!!!

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Donnie Cruz
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“Worship Leader”: David’s Music, Dancing and Celebration

May 3 2006, 8:16 AM 

Quoting from an article:

    … Why was not a warning label pasted on the Ark? Why was the team not given orders not to touch the Ark? God had given them that order! God said use staves, not carts. Use Levites, not cows!

    Now, you would think that David and the crew would have re-examined their method. Someone get the scroll. Which version? No one had one because they got one in the pew when they went to worship.

    The music, the dancing, the celebration is stopped, and David is afraid of God! His question gives a good look into David at this point. “How shall I bring the Ark of God home to me?” Second Samuel 6:9 or First Chronicles 13:9. Home to ME! It was not the Ark of David, it was the Ark of God! In much of the CCM [Contemporary Christian Music] dancing, singing, praising, etc. the big ME gets in the way of doing things God’s way! Spurgeon commented on this verse, “Thus religious joy was interrupted because it had not been sufficiently seasoned with holy awe. This was good for David and all Israel, it suspended their rejoicing, but it purged their hearts from levity and presumption. It also taught them to be obedient to the Lord’s word, as well as zealous in this praise. Such lessons we all need to be taught.”

I would like to post later on the entire article “David danced before the Lord!” written by Dr. Harold Richards of BBN.

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Are you serious?

May 11 2006, 2:19 PM 

I just happened to stumble on this thread.

I'm absolutely appalled.

What in the world are you trying to prove Donnie? Read Romans 14 and take a breather. It is not your job to argue, it is your job to turn the other cheek.

Stop being a name-caller and follow the example of Christ.


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Donnie Cruz
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Yes, I am very serious

May 12 2006, 8:36 AM 


I am familiar with Romans 14—there are several elements in that chapter. With all due respect, your advice is out of line. There are numerous passages that support the objectives of this website.

Let me give you a few of many examples of name-calling—the Scripture is blunt about it:

    Matt. 6—

  • [2] Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
  • [5] And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
  • [16] Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

    Matt. 22:[18] But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

    Matt. 23:

  • [13] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
  • [14] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
  • [15] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
  • [23] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
  • [25] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
  • [27] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
  • [29] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous

Thanks, you just reminded me to post the entire article which, if you haven’t noticed, happens to be written by someone from a Baptist-affiliated organization. It appears that you are not aware that all the rah-rah-rah influences are happening also outside of churches of Christ.


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Ken Sublett
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Turning my OTHER cheeks.

May 12 2006, 8:47 PM 

I am quite sure that Mitch has never read Romans 14 and 15 in one sitting. He has probably heard some of those sermons where Romans 14 demands that YOU must not oppose ME if I decide to impose singers and musicians into YOUR ekklesia.

In fact, Romans 14 EXCLUDES even discussing the personal preferences of the WEAK because they are NOT part of the school of the Bible. Romans 14 defines a VENUE for our private lives and opinions into which the EKKLESIA has no long arms to control and extract money for regulating each waking moment.

The DIVERSITIES in Rome specificially pointed to sects which were agreed that WORSHIP must be facilitated by arousal singing and the use of instruments. This should come as no surprise when Paul EXCLUDES external "melody" because the PSALLO word when applied to PLUCKING the harp strings pointed to older males USING younger males as "worship ministers."

Without dipping his pen in the ink Paul begins Romans 15 by rejecting PLEASURING SELF which points to spiritual excitement which was always facilited by music. The REPROACHES prophesied against Jesus would be specificially to get him involved to STRIP HIM NAKED. This was identified by Jesus when He called the people CHILDREN playing their flutes in the agora or marketplace intending to force Him and us to sing and dance the naked, perverted bowing to Baal or Dionysus.

Rather, the pleasing should be to the EDIFICATION or EDUCATION of one another using ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH and teaching "that which is written" or "Scripture." Only latter day profits and apostates ever attempted to shoe horn music into what Thomas Campbell and others defined as a SCHOOL OF CHRIST. Music is the mark of the BEAST which in older and later Gnosticism was ZOE who was also the "female instructing principle'" whose MINISTRY was to tell God to shut up and play.

That would eleminate the HYPOCRITES which were a SECTARIAN group much like the Pharisees and Scribes all ROLES of the same evil religionists who PERFORMED prayers which were "hymns" and charged the widows for it.

Jesus warned against the lord, lord sayers who were musical prophesiers and wasn't lovey-dovey when He said:
    Ye hypocrites [actors, singers, speakers], well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, Mt 15:7

    This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips;
    but their heart is far from me. Mt.15:8

      But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Matt 15:9 [songs, sermons, etal]

    Hupokrinô reply, make answer

    2. expound, interpret, explain [outlawed by Peter as private opposition] II. Att., speak in dialogue, hence play a part on the stage, be an actor, kômôidian, of orators and rhetoricians, represent dramatically, use histrionic arts, exaggerate,

    Similar Latin: canto , I. Neutr., to produce melodious sounds (by the voice or an instrument), to sound, sing, play (class. in prose and poetry; rare in Cic.).

    Rhêtor-ikos , ê, on, oratorical, hê rhêtorikê (sc. technê). These are the craftsmen lumped with the singers, musicians and "grinder" doing merchandise in the house of prayer. Rev. 18:22

Jesus names Isaiah but Ezekiel has the same prophecy. The "children" clergy who attempted to triumph over Jesus are the subject of the prophecy in Isaiah and Ezekiel. The words prove that the people were seeking the HYPOCRITES or public musicians as they sought John whom they thought wore SOFT CLOTHING: they were lusting form male prostitutes.
    Also, thou son of man, the children of thy people still are talking AGAINST thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother, saying, Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the Lord. Eze 33:30

    And they come unto thee AS the people cometh,
      and they sit before thee as my people,
      and they hear thy words,
      but they will not do them:

    for with their mouth they shew much LOVE,
      (Lord, Lord as amorousness - inordinate love),
      but their heart goeth after their covetousness. Eze 33:31

    Indeed, to them you are NOTHING MORE than one who sings love songs
    (minstrel as a prostitute) with a beautiful voice
    and plays (make melody on) an instrument well,
      for they hear your words but do not put them into practice. Eze 33:32NIV
Wow! You are NOTHING MORE than singers and musicians! That means that you are NOTHING, just NOTHING at all. You are HYPOCRITES in the same way that the singers and musicians are HYPOCRITES. The Incarnate God of the universe of the "lord lord sayers" DOES NOT EVEN KNOW YOUR NAME.

Jesus agrees: you are NOTHING AT ALL. You are just involved in VAIN RELIGION and God DOES NOT EVEN KNOW YOUR NAME. So all of the claims of the musical prophesiers that THEY knew God meant nothing if HE did not KNOW THEM.
    When all this comes true--and it surely will--then they will know that a prophet has been among them." Eze 33:33

    Love: Agab (h5689) aw-gab'; a prim. root; to breathe after, i. e. to love (sensually)- DOTE, : lover.

    And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she :doted: on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours, Ezek 23:5

    Which were clothed with blue, captains and rulers, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding upon horses. Ezek 23:6

    Thus she committed her whoredoms with them, with all them that were the chosen men of Assyria, and with all on whom :she doted: with all their idols she defiled herself. : Ezek 23:7

    The organ which Jubal "handled" without authority is the uwgab (h5748) oo-gawb'; from 5689 in the orig. sense of breathing; a reed-instrument of music: - organ

The leader of the vulgar, charismatic religion as a "spiritual" army:
    dêmagôgeô , to be a leader of the people, kalôs d. Isoc.2.16 ; têi men exousiai turannôn, tais d' euergesiais dêmagôgôn Id.10.37 ; cf. dêmagôgei: stratêgei, Hsch.: usu. in bad sense, Ar.Ra.423, etc.

      Turanneuô: to be a turannos, an absolute sovereign or despot,and in aor. to become such, Hdt., etc.: to be a prince or princess, Eur.

    The dêmagôgeô continued: 2. c. acc. pers., d. andras curry favour with , X.An.7.6.4 , cf. Arist.Pol. 1305b26, al.:--Pass., to be won over, conciliated by POPULAR ARTS, J.AJ 16.2.5.

The USED-WITH words connected to Paul's outlawing of PERSONAL PLEASURING which measns to CREATE MENTAL EXCITEMENT which is what Jesus died to REMOVE, point to words like Demagogue or those who use the ARTS in order to LIFT YOU UP to carry you away for his own pleasure. The word connects to the TYRANTS and to the KLEPTOMANIACS.

I turn my OTHER two cheeks to using psychological violence to urge TURNING the other cheek to false teaching. That, too, is a false teaching because Jesus never hesitated to pronounce WOES and crash the COLLECTION baskets in the temple called TRUMPETS. He promised that their MEGA temple would be taken down stone by stone and all of the Levitical Warrior Musicians and their instruments went to burn at Topheth.

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Re: “Worship Leader”: “The idols are different but the results are the same”

May 12 2006, 7:14 PM 

get a life people.

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Donnie Cruz
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The Music That Causes the “Worship Leader’s” Body to Gyrate

May 16 2006, 6:49 AM 

QUOTE: “BBN [Bible Broadcasting Network] President, Dr. Lowell Davey shares insights daily on this program. Perspective deals with a variety of subjects from current issues and events to Bible truths… Sometimes hard-hitting, occasionally humorous but always relevant, Perspective is a program you will want to listen to daily! Since Dr. Davey does not script his program, we are unable to provide transcripts….”

NOTE: In case the reader is wondering about BBN’s religious affiliation, I gather from reading about its doctrinal statement and what it teaches that it is not associated with churches of Christ. However, there are great lessons that can be gleaned from this conservative radio programming.

I find Dr. Davey’s messages concerning “music” in churches today very revealing. This past week, his message was about how to test the kind of “religious music”—its appropriateness or otherwise. It was quite difficult to transcribe the message below, but I think the reader will benefit from the “gist” of the message. It should help us realize what Ken Sublett has been writing about from his own researched historical and scriptural perspectives.

    We appreciate you taking time to share your comments, your insights…. Many of you have the same questions—can you condemn all Contemporary Christian Music? Of course not, all music at one time was contemporary—Martin Luther … or when you go back to history or what’s written today. It is not a favorable term or acceptable term just to condemn contemporary music.

    In my own thinking I’m no longer saying CCM—I now say CCR Music, which is basically Contemporary Christian Rock Music. There is some good and beautiful music. But when you get to the CC Rock realm, it is an entirely new territory.

    I like what Frank Garlock has to say in his book that music is a balance. He talks about how to determine music—appropriate or inappropriate to a Christian … [who should] draw the line. There is a simple test to it—what does it do to the body or to the movement? What kind of emotions does it stir up within your body, to respond to the music? Rock and Roll was about a sexual orientation music designed to be that way—the purpose of the rock artists. They make no bones about it.

    Today it’s the CCR with the same kind of beat that moves the body. The line should be drawn clearly by answering the question surely: What does one’s body do [in response to] that rhythm? A type of music that sets to marching movement—that’s safe under those circumstances. Tapping of one’s foot cannot be sensual, but when the music causes the entire body to gyrate, it has crossed the line of appropriateness or inappropriateness.

    Sensual music—if the motions are wrong, so is the music because it is in the music that causes the motion. The motion that reminds you of a bar room or a dance hall or a disco club and other places which feed the flesh … here the music is wrong. That music is wrong because of what is appealing to the body, not to your spirit. The book clarifies the statement of how do I determine what is the right kind of music and the body that responds to it.

    Go back to all the Rock groups that you’ve seen on television over the years—it was the body responding to the music. If music causes the body to respond in a sensual sense, it is exactly what CCR [Contemporary Christian Rock] Music is all about. And if that kind of music goes into the church, which it has done today, and is growing rapidly across America, this greatly concerns me because we have now totally adapted our music and our programming to develop to an absolute, actually immoral style of music. Call it what you want. But if you just get some common sense together, it might not be what CCR is all about, if that is its purpose. And the devil is so wise. It’s so amazing to me that he is the one who is doing this. And we sit back, and spiritually our demise is right around the corner. If we continue to follow the direction we are going simply because there’s no question in anybody’s mind, if you want to be honest about it, that CCR—what kind of music it is—what it’s going to do eventually to the body, to the development of the church, to the ministry of the word of God, to the quenching of the Spirit, because the lust of the flesh is absolutely going to destroy the power of the Spirit to work in the lives of youth, your young people, your teenager, wherever you go.

    CCR is designed to be devastating, and the devil is the author of it, and the promoter of it, and I can’t believe how well it is being bought by the church today. So, just distinguish the fact in your own mind if it is CCM or CCR because there is a great distinction. And again, the test of the music is what it does to the body that responds accordingly to what kind of music it really is.

So, where does your congregation stand in regard to congregational singing? What does your “Musical Worship Leader” do in [mis]-leading the congregants into God’s HOLY presence, i.e., as claimed, with all the rah-rah-rah and clap-clap-clap and o-o-o-o-o, the solo performances because it’s too difficult for the “regular” attendees to sing the “Christian Rock” artist’s Hard Rock music?


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Joe Spivy
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Christian "Hard" Rock Music

May 16 2006, 3:39 PM 

Perhaps we've just been fortunate, or had good guidance from our leaders, but I'm unfamiliar with "hard rock" music being used in a congregational setting of the churches of Christ. Then again, it may be a matter of definition.

For the purpose of clarification, could you provide two or three examples of songs heard in assemblies which qualify as hard rock music? I believe I'm familiar (and not particularly a fan or sympathetic) with the hard rock genre in a secular setting (been exposed to it on the radio) but find it hard to imagine what this would look like in an an assembly of a congregation that sings but does not play.

Thanks and God bless.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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