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Donnie Cruz
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“Hard” Rock Rhythmic Clapping

May 18 2006, 8:28 AM 

It would take some time right now for me to provide examples of “music” that resemble Dr. Davey’s description of “Contemporary Christian Rock” music. I say “music” (instead of songs) because by definition, “music” can be either vocal only or instrumental only or both.

Even without examples, the “Worship Leader” himself/herself can easily demonstrate the type of “music” that the [Baptist] preacher is alluding to. There are several 7-11 songs or choruses that are sung/performed with “vigorous rhythmic clapping” and/or hand waving and/or body gyrations that resemble what participants do in hard rock concerts.

The “Worship Leader” may resort to difficult 2- to 3-page, one-verse-no-chorus [pop artist] type of music that is difficult for the congregation to sing. “I Can Only Imagine” may be a good example of this. This has been performed a few times—a few times, I say, because the result is that it is sing-able only by the soloist or by the elite “Praise Team” that has rehearsed it prior to performance.

The message or truth in these musical pieces is either missing, in the first place, or lost in the rah-rah-rah. [I have more to say, but … time is up.]


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Re: “Hard” Rock Rhythmic Clapping

May 18 2006, 12:08 PM 

"There are several 7-11 songs or choruses that are sung/performed with “vigorous rhythmic clapping” and/or hand waving and/or body gyrations that resemble what participants do in hard rock concerts."

2 observations

1. I hope someday you will realize that as long as you continue to use belittling terminology (7-11 songs), your opposition will not care what you have to say because of the tone.

2. If you think ANYTHING you see in the way of clapping or body movement in a service at Madision even remotely resembles what happens at a rock concert, you haven't seen a rock concert in the last 25 years. Turn on MTV or BET sometime. Apples and oranges. It's those kind of statements which are obviously not grounded in reality (or at least today's reality) that make the rest of your argument suspect. I would gladly stand alongside you in opposition to instrumental music in our worship, but that has nothing to do with what's going on at Madison.

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Donnie Cruz
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“7-11 Songs” Belittle Jehovah with Rigorous Rhythmic Clapping

May 18 2006, 10:49 PM 

For those who need to know—“7-11 songs” consist of 7 words repeated 11 times … or something like that. They remind me of what Charismatic preachers interject—“Hallelujah” or “da lotta tongue de cushawong do so coo toe”—when they pause or run out of words to say. Do you realize that the real “tone” is when the “Worship Leader” cues the rhythmic clappers to do their thingy while singing, “Every knee shall bow at Your throne in worship”?

Please tell me, B, what you actually [your words…] “see in the way of clapping or body movement in a service at Madision [sic]…” Can I assume, then, that you and I are seeing or hearing the activities at Madison differently? Would you explain how you’re seeing it your way at Madison?

You may not have seen this, but I have seen this demonstrated a few times. There is a “praise music” which has these words: “You have turned my mourning into dancing…” A few teenagers—well taught by the “Worship Leader”—actually performed this dance [wachawannacallit] by literally doing a 360-degree turn twice. Wow!!! Not to mention … the swaying-to-the-music that goes on.

O.K. … I get your point. Making references to the sacred “7-11 songs” is belittling—I am so sorry. But what about belittling the holy name of our Father with irreverent loud noises and body gyrations … while supposedly “humbly bowing before Thee”?


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Re: The Music That Causes the “Worship Leader’s” Body to Gyrate

May 16 2006, 3:54 PM 

Once the argument passes from instrumental/non-instrumental to musical style, you have passed far beyond a scripturally defendable position. There is nothing in scripture to indicate how fast or slow a song should be. There is nothing about how many parts there are. There is nothing about musical key or pitch. The fact that a person writes an upbeat religious song today, makes that song no better or worse than a song written in 1859 or a song written by L.O. Sanderson 40 years ago.

Musical style is a losing argument and trivializes the real scriptural issues.

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Ken Sublett
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Speed! Music!

May 17 2006, 1:03 AM 

Can't let you get a LEG up (he, he, he). Music is like a drug. That is why you will never find a HINT of music used in the assembly of Christ or school of the Bible. SPEED is a code word.

Thus these meetings, which at first were only held on Sabbaths and feast days, came also to be held on other days,
    and at the same hours with the services in the temple.

    The essential aim, however, of the synagogue was not prayer,
    but instruction in the Law for all classes of the people.

    Philo calls the synagogues "houses of instruction, where the philosophy of the fathers and all manner of virtues were taught"
Paul command the ODE which is a straight line. Of the BOOK of Psalms which is the DIRECTLY COMMANDED resource for the "school of the Bible.

* Some bear the Hebrew designation shir (Greek ode, a song). Thirteen have this title. It means the flow of speech, as it were, in a straight line or in a regular strain. This title includes secular as well as sacred song.

* Fifty-eight Psalms bear the designation (Hebrew) mizmor (Greek psalmos, a Psalm), a lyric ode, or a song set to music.

This means that they CAN be accompanied but NEVER unless the instrument is named.

The word SPEAK as used for the EKKLESIA is clearly defined as "a whisper or conversational tone of voice." What we call a TUNE in the Greek is the normal inflections of the human voice. Only MAD WOMEN fell into the charismatic HIGH voices of the LOCUSTS who have invaded the church.

Peter commanded that if we SPEAK we speak AS the oracle of God. PSALMOS is "in the style of Hebrew cantillation" which is NOT musical and never FAST because the command--if you remember--was to edify or educate, teach or preach and admonish. NEVER to make music. It is just ALL FABRICATED by fabricators.

Canto Of the singing pronunciation of an orator, to declaim in a singing tone, to sing, drawl: si cantas,

I would repent in sackcloth and ashes and then go do the Judas Maneuver for spending the widow's money for people to MAKE FOOLS OF YOU. He IS mocking you, can't you grasp it?

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

What is the correct form of worship? (Craig asks Ken)

June 17 2006, 4:47 PM 

Craig Hartline asks Ken Sublett (cf. More Churches forum—Granny White Church of Christ) about “proper worship” [June 15 2006, 10:52 AM]:

Ken Sublett responds [June 16 2006, 12:45 PM]:

    First, I am not delusional and do not expect that there will be any "restored" churches soon. However, that does not mean that the Approved Practices of the "doctors of the Law" taking away the KEY to knowledge by deliberately SUBVERTING the views held by the founders and supporters. If they want to get IN BED with the Christian church they need the minimal honesty to get paid by THEIR members. I can tell you that NO Christian church is so stupid that they would AFFIRM our beliefs and FELLOWSHIP meaning to let ME or others teach what any literate Bible student knows. That means to me that those seeking to MERGE are PLANTS and cannot be that Biblically or historical illiterate. Can you believe a Guru speaking of the "worship" in Isaiah: "there's nothing wrong with their worship"? Can you hallucinate a Guru promoting the Lord's Supper as a "sacrificial meal with JUBILATION where God EATS while we burn the FAT"? Can you think of a teacher who DENIES that John was inspired because John doesn't have "Jesus going to Jerusalem"? Can you believe teaching that all of the olden Bible has been "sifted away" but "we gonna partner with God to work out a new set for OUR changed culture"? I think God is just RUBBING the noses of the "doctors of the Law" to make the literates see them as the prophesied BUFFOONS which God sends as His WRATH.

    Second, I believe the synagogue or church in the wilderness was to quarantine people from WORSHIP which was always pagan. This defined speaking or rehearsing the Word and excluded anything Loud such as instruments or loud rejoicing (the word ALARM)

    Consistent with that, the speaking in the EKKLESIA or synagogue or church is "speaking as the oracles of God." That defines both resources and manner of speaking: the Oracle spoke in a slow manner. It was the priests and musicians who changed the oracles in the pagan temples and sang them in verse.

    Paul's unique "worship" word meant to give heed to the Word or Spirit or "that which is written" or "scripture." That excluded the "worship" forms of the diversities in Rome namely the Orphics and Dionysiacs who PLEASURED one another with singing and music.

    When Paul assembled out on the mission field the words are types of "synagogue" and his task was to teach and disciple. The synagogue by direct command and universal practice until 1815 "had no praise service." Praise singing is one of the oldest superstitions that you have to ASSIST, appease or even threaten the gods to PAY you with many lambs.

    The historical churches assembled for extended periods for prayer, learning and chanting the Psalms, the Lord's Supper and fellowship. There was no collection plate passed but those DESTITUTE were assisted by those who PROSPERED (but only if they wished). There would have been no song leader: McClintock and Strong identifies the Precentor as "the first heresy largely pervading the church." There would have been no secular songs because that violated the Qahal or Synagogue commands in the wilderness, the approved example of Jesus, the direct command of Paul and the almost universal practice: A Campbell DEstored the Psalms. There would have been no singing in the true sense intended to arouse mental excitement prior to the year 373. There would have been no preaching: when leaders went from expository teaching to even telling Bible stories there was discord. For the most part the assembly—especially the communion and Hymning the Psalms—was not a private performance but done in a private (perhaps upper) room. You simply do not PERFORM praying or "leading" in prayers.

    Now, even if I had my youth back I would be at a loss about how to DO church without letting it get LOOSE and an ATTRACTANT (as Paul warned) for those seeing godliness as OCCUPATION. Here is what T. Campbell wrote in part:

    Now, we have trouble in River City when people deliberately collect money from widows which is the HERITAGE of her family. The postmodern view (confessed) and the Promise Keepers and Purpose Driven Cult and the Confilict Resolution people have no problem DIVERTING the monies to a BETTER USE than the one used to collect it. I have seen it done in my little town and the CHANGERS clearly recommend the process.

    Behind the scene the teachers have been collected from Reformed and Musical backgrounds having imbibed the false teachings which not a single one could defend. That is not to say that the "oldies" were always the "goodies" but they would NEVER lie, cheat and steal the universities or homes of widows.

    No one who reads anything from the PhDuhs or sees how they attend and defend churches paganizing with "music" as theatrical (hypocritical) performance can deny that too many are DISLOYAL and need to be removed.

    Ken Sublett

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Re: What is the correct form of worship? (Craig asks Ken)

June 17 2006, 9:05 PM 

simple question to Ken.
That was about a few hundred words of jibberish.
Donnie, come on. At least try and ATTEMPT to have ken answer a question in a straightforward manner!

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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

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Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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