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“Worship Leader”: “The idols are different but the results are the same”

April 1 2006 at 1:03 PM
Donnie Cruz  (Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
from IP address 68.154.165.11

“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ…” Notice the semi-colon in the above passage:

  1. Apostles; [semi-colon]
  2. Prophets; [semi-colon]
  3. Evangelists; [semi-colon]
  4. Pastors-Teachers; [semi-colon]

Here’s a brief explanation of “pastors and teachers.” This phrase is not in reference to the modern-day “pastor” of some religious faiths who is the “leader” of that particular faith. Rather, as clearly defined in a different role [as the semi-colon indicates], the provision for having “pastors-teachers” [hyphenated for illustration] is associated with the role of [a plurality of] elders in a congregation. Notice certain qualifications of elders:

    “[1] This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. [2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.” (I Timothy 3, KJV]

(I think the explanation above is necessary in order not to get side-tracked into the “pastors” issue.) Now, let’s look at the entire passage dealing with the one church and the provision that Christ has made “… for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ”:

    [1] I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, [2] With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; [3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. [8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    [11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: [16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.” (Ephesians 4, KJV)


The point is to show that Christ has made ample provision for the furtherance and edification of his church. For man to add to what Christ has provided, which is sufficient for the needs of the church, is abhorrent to God and insulting to His wisdom and authority.

The office of “worship leader,” which man has devised for a man or a woman to lead the congregation into God’s HOLY presence with all the rah-rah-rah, rhythmic clapping, concert-like hand-waving and body movements, irreverent and AWE-less behavior—is UNAUTHORIZED.

Worship is never a ministry! Musical worship does not exist—read the Holy Scripture and it’s nowhere to be found. Musical worship is a form of idolatry. Within it can exist an IDOLATRY of MUSICAL TALENT—just think about what that means … I know you can figure it out.

Please, please do not confuse man-ordained “musical worship” with the divinely ordained assembly of the saints as a Bible school in which God’s truth is taught and learned—i.e., by teaching and admonishing one another—and fellow believers partake of the bread to commemorate Christ’s suffering and death on the cross.

Yes, and members are not to be faulted for being misled, there exists a different form of idolatry. Nonetheless, it is idolatrous and the result is the same.

Read the article below.

Donnie

 
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AuthorReply
Donnie Cruz
(no login)
72.150.119.57

"The idols are different but the results are the same." (Lowell Davey)

April 1 2006, 6:10 PM 


______________________________

Here it is: an article written by Lowell Davey, president of the Bible Broadcasting Network. It is not only in churches of Christ, but also in many other religious faiths that the “worship wars” are going on. It is admittedly more difficult to deal with this issue in the brotherhood than anywhere else because the use of instrumental music in the assembly compounds further the already complex issue of worship. The article below, hopefully, will help explain to those among us who claim that the church is dying [more like wishful thinking on their part in order to promote their agenda of change, change, change] and that it is outdated and unreasonably adamant to culture-based needs—as if the gospel and doctrine of Christ ought to change relatively. It is unfortunate that those critics and change agents among us who clamor for “go with the flow” thingy continue to bash the church and compromise the truth.

Donnie


______________________________

    Perspective

    "The idols are different but the results are the same."


    The "worship wars" are beating the drums throughout the church today. This isn't new. Repeatedly in the Old Testament God judged His people for false worship. Exodus 32 says they were punished for both worshipping a false god and worshipping God falsely. In John 4, Jesus shared with the woman at the well the true principles of worship. It was not the physical location, but rather the spiritual condition of the person.

    Worship throughout the Old Testament was always in a building called a temple or tabernacle. Today, that has all changed. "Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit...?" I Corinthians 6:19. God does not meet with us in buildings, but indwells us individually. Today we are temples of God who go to a place for fellowship, prayer, breaking of bread, and learning of His Word. The place is the Church. (Acts 2:42) In fact, from the beginning of the book of Acts (the beginning of the Church) to the book of Jude, there is not one reference to collective worship. Nearly all references to worship in the book of Acts are a rebuke of false worship.

    In all the "worship wars," music is the battleground. Many church services begin with a long period of "praise and worship," as if this is worship, and the rest of the service is something else. This is not new. In Exodus 32:4-6, Israel had come to the place where God was going to personally give them His Word. They missed it. Their self-appointed "worship leader" made a golden calf, called it god, rocked out the music, added dancing and eventually immorality, and called it worship. This led the people into God's judgment. It was an abomination to God. Does this have any of the contemporary flavor? Can it be found in this "worship war" of music and dance today? Aaron (the first worship leader) led the people in dance and music to worship in Egypt's style and turned their hearts from the eternal God to Egypt's golden idol. The idols are different, but the results are the same. The absence of the leader opened the door to perverted worship. Perhaps this should be a warning to the leadership in the church today. Maybe there is cause for alarm.

    Ron Owens in his book, Return To Worship, talks of "the rise of the chorus and the death of the hymn." We are stealing from this generation our greatest heritage and our greatest teaching tool. Martin Luther used the power of hymns as he sent out singing groups to teach the people doctrine (Colossians 3:16) which played a great part in the Reformation. We still sing his great hymns 500 years later.

    Isaac Watts wrote 875 hymns 250 years ago. Many, like "When I Survey The Wondrous Cross," are in our hymnals. Charles Wesley gave us hundreds of hymns, like "O For A Thousand Tongues To Sing." John Newton, the converted slave trader, gave us "Amazing Grace." The longevity of these hymns in the Church has been the bedrock of much of the indelible learning of doctrine. Yes, there have been many hymns written in the past hundred years that are wonderful as well. The great concern is that a pastor or worship leader may close the hymn book and steal our greatest tool for teaching the Truth to the next generation. Can we sing some choruses? Of course, we can. But it is like serving the appetizer and forgetting the main course if we neglect the hymns. In time, we will find a famine in the land for the Word of God.

    This is one reason BBN shares the great hymns daily. It will nourish you because it is God's will as seen in Ephesians 5:17-20. It is the will of the Lord to sing hymns.


    Lowell Davey, President of BBN

______________________________

 
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Brian
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71.72.38.9

Re: “Worship Leader”: “The idols are different but the results are the same”

April 1 2006, 8:23 PM 

The semicolons are not in the original text. No punctuation is.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
70.156.0.145

Commas or “as” or “to be” or “the” will do as well.

April 1 2006, 8:57 PM 

Brian,

Have you checked other translations? Just to mention a couple, even the following translations [ ]:

    “[11] It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, [12]to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up” [N.I.V.]

    “[11] He is the one who gave these gifts to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. [12]Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ” [New Living Translation]

    “[11] and He gave some [as] apostles, and some [as] prophets, and some [as] proclaimers of good news, and some [as] shepherds and teachers, [12] unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ,” [Young’s Literal Translation]

Hope this helps.

Donnie

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
4.152.81.62

No Musicators?

April 1 2006, 10:02 PM 

Of course not, everyone knew that the musicators were WOMEN. Not before the time of David--who may have had problems--did males become singers and instrument players.

We are told that the women were almost always prostitutes: one resource says that when MALES fell into it they were "drunk or perverts." There is no other meaning in the istory of the world.

The term Pastor-Teachers is written so that it is probably a hyphenated term: the pastors or shepherds fed by teaching the WORD as it had been taught. If you watch those singy clappy types I am surprised how so many wear scraggly beards when they REALLY cannot grow one. That and long hair was the mark of the musicians.

For anyone Biblically literate it is perfectly clear that God associates music with trying to silence God's Word. That is why Lucifer (Zoe) is called the "beast and female instructing principle." In the Greek world of religious festivals the women could not PERFORM so emasculated males dressed and acted like females. When you see the singing, clapping and body motion you know that the guy is leading you into--as pagans and Carol Wimber confesses--a sexual like CLIMATIC experience with God.

It is amazingly amazing that grown (?) men can read clear text and see blank verse: that is the mark of STRONG DELUSIONS. When you see males beginning to musicate then you know that a Mother Goddess Agent has landed right on time: they were called LOCUSTS with scorpion stingers in their tails.

Jesus didn't have to die to found a system of pagan religionism which is ABSOLUTELY marked by any kind of performance music which every literate person at the time of Paul knew to be a sign of madness and perversion. God is making them dance on a string and they may never be able to stop. Let's pray.

 
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Brian
(no login)
71.72.38.9

Re: Commas or “as” or “to be” or “the” will do as well.

April 2 2006, 5:30 PM 

Regardless of what punctuation the translators of the various translations have inserted into the text... the fact is that there is no punctuation in the original text. So it's really pointless to base an argument on what punctuation you find.

Hope that helps!

 
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JC_1335
(Login JC_1335)
172.132.242.97

1 cor. 12 comparison

April 2 2006, 12:57 PM 

Reading the context of Ephesians 4 and noting the phrase Christ's "GIFT" in verse 7; then reading down to the verse you mentioned, verse 11; ...

now if we carefully compare scripture with scripture and these verses in Ephesians 4 with what we read in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11,28; it is quite apparent that these things mentioned in Ephesians 4:11 were GIFTS of the Holy Spirit that were MIRACULOUS appointments and we also know such things ceased when the written word was completed and the apostles who could only bestow these gifts by the laying on of their hands (Acts 8) passed away.

I tire easily and am quite sure you have a Bible handy so I will just post references and allow you to look up the passages.

have a great week all, life is good.
JC

 
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Lee Gullism
(no login)
172.132.53.161

Good One

April 2 2006, 10:26 PM 


Ken-
"We are told that the women were almost always prostitutes: one resource says that when MALES fell into it they were "drunk or perverts." There is no other meaning in the istory of the world."

We "are told"??? Told by whom?
"one resource says..." What resource?
"There is no other meaning..." I'm sure that's right, I mean, why do we even have a Bible?

One day, you people are going to see what he's doing. One day....

By the way, I'm sure your friend and supporter PPB appreciates being called what you called her.

You're losing it more everyday.

 
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Ken
(no login)
4.152.81.72

Re: Good One

April 3 2006, 11:09 AM 

C Gull, you are droping bombs again:

Our lady SCHOLAR to whom you should listens know that she is not a RELIGIOUS MUSICATOR.

 
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Lee Gullism
(no login)
172.129.95.238

Listen To Yourself

April 3 2006, 8:50 PM 


Sad what passes for a "scholar" these days.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
4.152.183.208

Re: Listen To Yourself

April 4 2006, 7:15 PM 

Lee, you and a few ditto heads qualify for the word FOOL: predestinated by God for that necessary role of SEED PICKER meaning the Bird Demons.

I asked God if I could have permission to label you a FOOL?

The message I THINK I heard was: "No, Ken, not yet: he needs more training to qualify."

 
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wordkeeper
(Login wordkeeper)
68.143.65.130

maybe the miarculous gifts have not ceased

April 5 2006, 5:46 PM 

I agree that the best way to understand scripture is
with other scripture. On the issues of miraculous gifts
let us read I Corinthians 1:5-9 where the Apostle Paul
says that the gifts bestowed on the Corinthian Church are
operational until the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. In
verse 7 he states that the church has every spiritual gift
that is needed. Paul is referring to the spiritual gifts
outlined in chapters 12 and 14.

On the issue of laying on of hands, there is nothing magical
or special about such activity. Peter states in Acts 3:12 that
it is not the power that is inside of man that miracles occur
but it is by the name of Jesus Christ (verse 16). Laying on of
hands have three functions:

1) to impart blessings on an individual like Christ has done to
the children brought to him.

2) As an act of commissioning service for the church like Paul
and Barnabas (Acts 13:2 and 3).

3) As a symbolic of the use of a human vessel to demonstrate
the work of the Holy Spirit.

The laying on of hands doesn't work like electricity where a
bolt of energy transfers to another person, but rather God
does the work Himself through the agent of a believing servant.
As far as I know this is still true for today because mankind
will always be in need of help through divine intervention.

God bless my fellow believers,

Wordkeeper

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
65.1.219.246

True—no semi-colons

April 5 2006, 6:06 AM 

Argument #1—“The semicolons are not in the original text. No punctuation is. ”

Response #1—Commas or “as” or “to be” or “the” will do as well. (I cited three more translations which prove that even without the semi-colons, the original text support the fact that there were only 4 [NOT 5] groups listed.)

Argument #2—“Regardless of what punctuation the translators of the various translations have inserted into the text... the fact is that there is no punctuation in the original text. So it's really pointless to base an argument on what punctuation you find.”

Response #2—There’s really no choice but to be very technical about it. Parallelism in grammar is extremely important in dividing into sub-units or into sub-sections—good examples of which would be words or expressions as follows:

  • (1) some … (2) some … (3) some … (4) some
  • (1) some to be … (2) some to be … (3) some to be … (4) some to be
  • (1) the … (2) the … (3) the … (4) the
  • (1) some as … (2) some as … (3) some as … (4) some as

Did you notice in the expressions above? In all cases, (5) is not included because the original text does not list #5.

Even without the punctuation, the 4 cited [of numerous] translations consistently indicate, based on the ORIGINAL TEXT, 4 groups responsible: “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.”

King James Version: “And he gave—:

  1. some [,] apostles
  2. some [,] prophets
  3. some [,] evangelists
  4. some [,] pastors and teachers
    ------- NOT -------
  1. some[,] apostles
  2. some[,] prophets
  3. some[,] evangelists
  4. some[,] pastors
  5. some[,] teachers

New International Version [NIV]: “It was he who gave—

  1. some to be apostles
  2. some to be prophets
  3. some to be evangelists
  4. some to be pastors and teachers
    ------- NOT -------
  1. some to be apostles
  2. some to be prophets
  3. some to be evangelists
  4. some to be pastors
  5. some to be teachers

New Living Translation: “He is the one who gave these gifts to the church—

  1. the apostles
  2. the prophets
  3. the evangelists
  4. the pastors and teachers
    ------- NOT -------
  1. the apostles
  2. the prophets
  3. the evangelists
  4. the pastors
  5. the teachers

Young’s Literal Translation: “and He gave—

  1. some [as] apostles
  2. some [as] prophets
  3. some [as] proclaimers of good news
  4. some [as] shepherds and teachers
    ------- NOT -------
  1. some [as] apostles
  2. some [as] prophets
  3. some [as] proclaimers of good news
  4. some [as] shepherds
  5. some [as] teachers

In all cases, “pastors-teachers” is one entity—NOT two separate entities. This entity is a group of elders (or shepherds or bishops) who are qualified to teach—remember that “apt to teach” is one of the qualifications of the elders?

Besides, the main point in the article is that the man-appointed “WORSHIP LEADER” is certainly NOT one of these provisions for the edification of the church.

Donnie

 
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Donnie
(no login)
71.72.38.9

Re: True—no semi-colons

April 5 2006, 6:56 PM 

Response #2—There’s really no choice but to be very technical about it. Parallelism in grammar is extremely important in dividing into sub-units or into sub-sections—good examples of which would be words or expressions as follows:

  • (1) some … (2) some … (3) some … (4) some
  • (1) some to be … (2) some to be … (3) some to be … (4) some to be
  • (1) the … (2) the … (3) the … (4) the
  • (1) some as … (2) some as … (3) some as … (4) some as
This is a better argument. Now, where is the proof for the following:

This entity [the pastor-teacher] is a group of elders (or shepherds or bishops)

 
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Brian
(no login)
71.72.38.9

Re: True—no semi-colons

April 5 2006, 11:10 PM 

I'm not sure how the message got Donnie's name on it. I wrote it.

Response #2—There’s really no choice but to be very technical about it. Parallelism in grammar is extremely important in dividing into sub-units or into sub-sections—good examples of which would be words or expressions as follows:


(1) some … (2) some … (3) some … (4) some
(1) some to be … (2) some to be … (3) some to be … (4) some to be
(1) the … (2) the … (3) the … (4) the
(1) some as … (2) some as … (3) some as … (4) some as
This is a better argument. Now, where is the proof for the following:

This entity [the pastor-teacher] is a group of elders (or shepherds or bishops)

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
68.19.221.101

“Pastors-Teachers” Briefly Explained

April 6 2006, 8:17 AM 

Donnie’s Previous Statement: “In all cases, ‘pastors-teachers’ is one entity—NOT two separate entities. This entity is a group of elders (or shepherds or bishops) who are qualified to teach—remember that “apt to teach” is one of the qualifications of the elders?”

Brian's Question: “Now, where is the proof for the following: ‘This entity [the pastor-teacher] is a group of elders (or shepherds or bishops)’”

Answer:

    In the New Testament, the following words are used interchangeably to refer to the same group of MEN who lead a local congregation: (1) pastors, (2) shepherds, (3) elders, (4) bishops, or (5) presbyters.

    [I’ll explain further later on….]


    In the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John), there are numerous references to the sheep, the shepherd or shepherds, the flock, shepherding over the flock, shepherd of the sheep, etc.

    “Elders of the church” is mentioned in Acts 20:17. Paul admonished the elders to: “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood (v. 28). [Actually, “overseers” is another description of one of the responsibilities of the elders.] Of course, how can we forget that our Lord Jesus is “the great shepherd of the sheep” (Heb. 13:20)? I Peter 2:25—“For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”

    I Peter 5 clearly explains the role of the elders (shepherds or pastors or bishops or overseers) of the local church and how it is related to that of the Chief Shepherd and Bishop: “[1] The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: [2] Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; [3] Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. [4] And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.”

    Ordaining “elders in every city” is mentioned in Titus 1:5. The qualifications of a bishop or elder are mentioned as follows:

      [1] Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; [2] In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; . . . [5] For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: [6] If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. [7] For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; [8] But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; [9] Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

    I Timothy 3:

      [1] This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. [2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

    Let’s not forget that the office of “WORSHIP LEADER” [keyword is “worship”] is man-made and man-authorized. After all, worship is a personal and an individual matter. In fact, “worship service” is not outlined in the New Testament other than we are to worship God in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). Yes, there is a gathering of the disciples to “break bread” and to study God’s Word—teaching and admonishing each other.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 67.32.215.214 on Apr 7, 2006 9:03 AM


 
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Brian
(no login)
71.72.38.9

Re: “Pastors-Teachers” Briefly Explained

April 6 2006, 7:02 PM 

I'd suggest that you do more that just explain. Proof is required.

 
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William
(no login)
70.146.142.146

Questions

April 5 2006, 9:49 PM 

You wrote:

Besides, the main point in the article is that the man-appointed “WORSHIP LEADER” is certainly NOT one of these provisions for the edification of the church.


I will agree that the Bible does not mention a worship leader, but it also does not mention a "Song leader" being used in Worship. Does that make the use of a "Song leader" unscriptural?


 
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PPB
(no login)
70.116.84.97

Re: Questions

April 6 2006, 8:15 PM 

William,

That analogy just doesn't work and needs to stop being used. A song leader is NOT a worship leader. Let's look at your analogy...

Song leader -
A requirement when any two or more sing together. A person who begins the first note of a song so that others may follow. Provides the song and verse for others. A person who's role is to keep order in the praising of God - to prevent chaos. Someone who helps pace the song so that everyone knows when to sing the next word. Literally it means to be a temporary guide during a song, a helper, a servant. It is not a "leadership" roll, but is shared by any male Christian brave enough sing in front of others. A necessity.

Fact: Song leaders existed in Jesus' time. How do we know? Well, unless all the early Christian's had the ability to read each other's minds, someone had to start the song off. It was usually done by a elder or older deacon (according to 1st/2nd century writings) and done in an orderly fashion without the use of instruments. We also know that the assemblies were extremely orderly, quiet, simple, and reflective. Any dancing, high spirits, instruments, and clapping were considered satanic and paganistic. (Why doesn't that still apply today when we still have pagan religions?)

Worship Leader - (per job descriptions and the many worship leader websites)
A position of authority over the singing and entertainment portion of the services. Used when services incorporate more than mere praising through song. The worship leader's main job is to enthuse the crowd with emotion and spirit via theatrics and enterainment. To evoke passion beyond that which was originally intended by Christ. To add to the orderly and simple assembly described in the NT. To bring about "feelings" that are not normally felt with the regular psalms or songs.

Facts about the job - to attract members that are not comfortable with the type of assembly described in the NT - like the ones held by Jesus and the Apostles.
Reason - the original Word of God is not inspiring enough or entertaining enough to hold the attention of the masses. A gimick is needed to get their attention centered back on Christ.

So let's compare:

A simple job that any Christian accepts when beginning the first note of a song for others to follow.
VS
a position intended to create, design and provide entertainment and merriment by adding theatrics/instruments in order to make the basic assembly more exciting and less scriptural based.

Don't see the analogy there...

 
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Lee Gullism
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Re: Questions

April 7 2006, 2:40 AM 

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!!!!!

PPB-
This is your best work yet! Keep piling on your speculation, lying, and presumption and try to pass it off as scripture. It's amusing. Really.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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