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The Body of Christ.

April 16 2006 at 1:39 PM
A Member of the Body of Christ  (no login)
from IP address

There is something wrong, something very wrong. There needs to be a change, a big change.

There is this body, this body of believers. This body all believes in the same God. This body believes in the same Savior. Everyone in this body gains the same salvation. Everyone in this body receives the same grace. Everyone in this body is covered by the same blood. Everyone in this body is destined to go to the same place.

Yet, this body is divided, very divided. This body is full of people who think they are always right. This body is full of people that are concentrated on the wrong things. This body is full of people who try to tear each other apart instead of build each other up. This body is full of people that do not accept each other. This believed body of love and unity is sometimes a body of hatred and division.

Is not this body of unity supposed to love each other? Is not this body of unity supposed care for each other? Is not this body of unity supposed to accept each other and its differences? Is not this body of unity supposed to present the lost world with hope? How can this body successfully do these things when it is hurting itself with division and hatred?


"I am the way and the truth and the light. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 Jesus is the only way. Our demonation of church does not determine our salvation. Only our acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Lord. Jesus is the way. He is the truth. He is the light. We can be saved by nothing else.

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Donnie Cruz
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What Is the “Body of Christ”?

April 16 2006, 9:02 PM 

Dear Poster,

Your article is atypical of the message that this website is trying to convey—which is basically to warn congregations of the dangers and risks involved when unnecessary and controversial changes are being enforced against the will of many of a church’s members. This website is opposed to ecumenism—which has never worked even among a number of religious groups who call for unity. There may be union in ecumenism, but union is not the same thing as unity. The Holy Scripture does not speak of any form of “union,” but it speaks a great deal about unity.

Your article contains valid points that we all can agree upon. But the question of achievability remains. The denominational world will never, never be united; in fact, denominationalism—which is by no means the kind of UNITY that the scriptures speak of—will continue to evoke more denominationalism.

At the same time, your set of questions further leads us to even more questions. For example, why would you expect the church of Christ to change its beliefs in order to join forces with the denominational world, and then NOT expect the denominations to change their doctrines and creeds to “unite” with us?

Well, I’m not trying to take anything away from a fruitful discussion that we should hope will ensue, but I simply would like to remind the readers that your plea for unity is not practical—it will not work unless and until all religious groups realistically can come to a scripture-based set of doctrines, beliefs and teachings.

I would like to ask you to present you proposition to your minister and to your elders, and let us know what they think—are they in partial/full agreement/disagreement with you?

Thanks for posting.


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Re: What Is the “Body of Christ”?

April 16 2006, 11:05 PM 

We have the same beliefs. We all believe in Jesus Christ as our risen Savior. What we have that is different is our preferences. We CAN be unified. That doesn't mean we all have to have the same preferences. I attend a church of Christ. I know how it runs. We have our rules, our taboos. But we need to realize these are not rules. They are preferences. We can be unified.

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Donnie Cruz
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Really same beliefs … varying preferences?

April 17 2006, 2:01 AM 

I still would encourage you to show your original post to your minister and elders. If nothing else, please ask them if they agree with your premise, specifically the paragraph that’s bolded, listing a number of selected religious bodies. You may not consider this significant, but it is really significant. Why? Because if the elders in your church teach that the church of Christ can accept doctrines and teachings that even DIFFERING religious bodies cannot agree on, then, they are also wrong and have no business leading your church. There would be NO REASON whatsoever for the church of Christ to even exist. And they might as well serve as “elders” in any of these religious bodies—if they will let them.

We haven’t even started discussing beliefs, doctrines and teachings. But to make a blanket statement that “we have the same beliefs” is very troubling. Perhaps, there are no differences to you because the teaching-learning resources, materials and lessons in your “Bible” classes are derived from various religious faiths.

So, please, do me a favor. If your father has been/is an elder, he is one person to ask about your views on unity. Perhaps, there are other elders who know you personally and can, therefore, give you an honest answer.

There’s so much to discuss concerning “the body of Christ”—which is often misunderstood as it seems to be the case even as we speak.



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Re: What Is the “Body of Christ”?

April 17 2006, 3:11 AM 

Miss Member of the Body of Christ:

Unfortunately, I can promise you that we are not disagreeing on "preferences" but over the REMOVAL of important scriptures that Jesus and the Apostles stated were imperative to our salvation, and the ADDITION of worldly behaviors that were condemned by Christ.

I applaud your love for people and your desire that all should be saved. However, reality must be noted and addressed. May I ask you something? Can you please explain how God's scriptural commands are now considered to be preferences? And these "rules" you so lightly dismiss are not man's rules, but God's commands. Am I to ignore his commands and now determine which of his "rules" I no longer need to obey so that I can get along with other religions?

Jesus himself stated these divisions would happen because of Satan and to NOT let our beliefs and traditions be changed by the world. He said he would NOT know us at judgement day if we didn't follow ALL of his Father's commands. He said full unity would not happen because man is sinful and lets his wants get in the way of his beliefs.

I hope you understand that under your unification process, we would throw out 99% of the Bible because we removed all "preferences" and "rules". HOWEVER, that one little verse in Revelation does bother me - something about adding or taking away from God's Word being detrimental to our salvation. Though I applaud you for caring and wanting all to be saved (I share that same wish/prayer), we must not let our desire for something that cannot be to override God's commands.

Jesus said it most clearly in Mat 7:14: "Because strait [is] the gate, and NARROW [is] the way, which leadeth unto LIFE, and FEW there be that FIND it."

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Body of Christ

April 17 2006, 10:01 AM 

I, too, gather that the anonymous poster would have not only the church of Christ, but all faiths, come to some kind of consensus about what to believe in Christianity. That is, in order for everyone to have peace and get along with each other, we would all draw up a list of those things on which all faiths could agree, and that would be our "doctrine." That would "unify" all faiths. That is also ecumenism. What is not said (but is implied nevertheless) is that those scriptural beliefs on which all faiths could not agree would be ignored or discarded for the sake of "unification." But it's already been pointed out that, although such a concept merely unifies us with each other, it is not the scriptural "unity in Christ." To have full unity in Christ, all people must be willing to yield completely to Christ, to follow His commands and the New Testament to the letter, veering neither to the left hand nor to the right, without regard for personal preferences.

Full unity in Christ will not happen as long as there is denominationalism. Full unity in Christ will not happen as long as people believe that there are multiple paths to Christ instead of the ONE PATH--THE OLD PATH--THE NARROW PATH--HIS WAY.

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Lee Gullism
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Not even close

April 18 2006, 12:58 AM 

This thread has a concerned Christian talking about apples, and everyone else talking about oranges.

The poster is saying, why don't we lose our opinions and be unified under the REAL law?

The answer is: Our opinion IS the real law.

It's not denominationalism that's holding back unity. It's this arrogant claim to be the only one's with the truth. (and it's not even the truth).

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Donnie Cruz
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“The body of Christ”—not yet defined

April 20 2006, 1:20 AM 


No, we’re making sure first that the initial post is talking about either apples or oranges.

The discussion has barely started. We haven’t yet clearly defined what comprises the body of Christ. To draw the conclusion beforehand that the body of Christ encompasses the denominations (even the “selected” ones as mentioned above) is certainly an opinion. And for you to agree with that conclusion is simply a statement of opinion from you.

The poster—and you have made it clear for us—is correct in pointing out that we lose our opinions. Unfortunately that “losing what” includes your opinion that denominationalism is an attribute or part of the nature of the church.

Identifying the church as a conglomerate of various religious bodies is unscriptural and contrary to how the New Testament ascribes to the one body of Christ (Eph. 4:4)—not hundreds of religious bodies. I Cor. 12:12 states—“For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.” Does it say that the one body has many denominations? No … no … no! Besides, the New Testament is clear about how an individual becomes a member of [or is added to—NOT JOIN] the church (Acts 2:37-38,41,47)

The church belongs to Christ—why “of Christ” and not of some human founder significantly designates its ownership. It is important to note that the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant churches did not exist in the apostolic age.

No Christian who knows the truth ever thinks that “our opinion is the REAL law.” You said that—not I.

Denominationalism equates diversity in doctrines and beliefs. Neither one is conducive to unity.

You have arrogance confused with confidence. The truth does not equivocate. Therefore, confidence in the truth does not equate arrogance. You might call it arrogance when you cannot argue with the truth or when the truth hurts you.


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Dr. Bill Crump
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RE: Not Even Close

April 20 2006, 10:09 AM 

Unity in Christ will arrive when Christians are able once and for all to put their opinions and preferences aside and yield completely to the commands of Christ as set forth in the New Testament.

Unity in Christ encompasses ONE belief and ONE obedience, not multiple or diverse beliefs with some obeying some portions of the New Testament and others ignoring them.

Unity in Christ encompasses much more than just a bunch of congregations with divergent beliefs who agree to "believe in" Christ and otherwise do as they please. Anyone can give lip service and say they "believe in" Christ. The real test of unity is whether or not these "believers" are able to come together with one spiritual mind and commit themselves to following and obeying Christ and His Word in ALL THINGS whatsoever He commanded us (Matt. 28:20).

Yet when we advocate this complete scriptural unity in Christ, many object that we are merely stating our church of Christ opinions, that we are lifting up our preferences as divine principles.

If people coming together with one mind to submit totally to Christ is not "unity in Christ," if people coming together with one mind to obey Christ and His Word faithfully and completely is not "unity in Christ," then what else could "unity in Christ" possibly mean? Unity means one, not many. "Unity in diversity," that all-too-familiar adage of the Change Movement, is a misnomer, for where there is diversity of spiritual belief, there can be no unity of spiritual belief. That is really talking about apples and oranges or mixing oil with water.

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Ken Sublett
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body of christ

April 20 2006, 2:09 PM 

It is an old view that when Israel sinned beyond redemption God ABANDONED them to the musical worship of the STARRY HOST (Acts 7) they requested.

The temple was a SYMBOLIC type: if you will notice the "body" or Holy Place has all of the symbols of the CHURCH: the seven "spirits" or knowledge or light, the table of fellowship and the incense altar. This for the "civilians" was the synagogue or "church in the wilderness" where loud instruments and 'making a joyful noise' was OUTLAWED. Just common sense and common decency: when you enter the SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE and Jesus is our teacher when we teach or preach "that which has been taught" no dummy needs to be told NOT to make "music."

The HEAD is where the thinking takes place and CHRIST is the HEAD of the body, the church.

Now, the body RESTS on two things: first one leg is the SACRIFICE and second is the laver of washing. Both the sacrifice and the priest had to be WASHED in order to enter into the Holy Place ot type of the church of Christ. That is why you must rest on the sacrifice of Christ and be WASHED and given A holy spirit. THEN, God adds you to the church of Christ or the Body of Christ.

Once you are in the BODY you can come boldly before the throne of Grace. The incense altar meaning our PRAYERS looked into the Most Holy Place where Christ the Holy Spirit meets US in the PLACE of our own spirit. The Word of God rested UNDER the mercy seat and that is why you cannot READ it until you are converted to Christ (2 Cor 3).

No musical mockers or singers could ENTER into the body of Christ or Church of Christ EVEN TO CLEAN OUT THE GARBAGE (see Hezekiah's reform). If a singer or musician ENTERED into even the carnal TYPE of the body of Christ he would be instantly killed by the "brethren."

When we as priests come to the incense altar to offer our own PRAYERS or fruit of the lips, there was a HALF HOURS SILENCE. That is why in Revelation they HOLD their harps and do not PLAY them.

That is why Simple Simon Sez in 101aaa --with all of the Bible and all recorded church history--that it is LUCIFER (Zoe) who lusts to get you all PLEASURED (outlawed by Paul in Romans 15 for the ekklesia) to keep you from GIVING HEED to the Word of Christ which is Paul's UNIQUE "worship" word. She is the holy whore in Revelation 18. All of the singers, musicians and "religious teknokrats" will go with her back into hell and John defined HER servants as SORCERERS who deceived the nations and that is why the CANDLES are removed by Jesus Christ. So, when you see these MARKS don't be silly and think that it is YOUR PREFERENCE which Trumps Jesus Christ: it is the sign that Jesus Christ has ALREADY abandoned you to worship the STARS just as he did to the musical idolaters at Mount Sinai.

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Ray Pippin
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Respond to Dr. Crump

May 11 2006, 1:06 PM 

Sorry. Dr. Crump. There will never be unity even among Churches of Christ as long as there are preachers among us who the very moment someone even tries to discuss some of our differences they jump in and condemn them for even trying. Anyone who tries is branded as a compromiser of the truth. The problem has always been on the inside.
We have nothing to fear from the demoninations, we will tear ourselves apart all by ourselves. The demoninations just sit back and laugh at us. AND IS IT ANY WONDER?????

I am sure you will have a great response and everyone will be told what a terrible false teacher I am.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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RE: Respond to Dr. Crump

May 12 2006, 10:28 AM 

Was Pippin implying that I was a preacher? Whatever, we need not "fear" the denominations; we just don't need to mimic them, as some church of Christ congregations are doing. Trying to win the approval of the denominations and the world by emulating them through worldly gimmicks and finding the "best" parts of Scripture on which we all can agree won't cut the mustard as far as obedience to Christ is concerned. It's an all or none situation. Neither should we be concerned about who "laughs" at us. People laughed at Christ, and the ungodly will always laugh at the faithful.

There are so many different "Christian faiths" with so many different interpretations, all of which have existed for decades and centuries, that it is logical to see that total unity (obedience to Christ and the New Testament in ALL THINGS whatsoever He has commanded us) is now virtually impossible. For complete and total "unity in Christ" by New Testament standards, all faiths would have to agree to give up their "traditions" and "preferences" and go strictly "by the book," the New Testament. But for many faiths, "rules and regulations," hence any type of authority, are just forms of "legalism." We also must remember that the New Testament did not predict a worldwide "unity in Christ" as the end of time approaches, but instead a falling away from the faith.

Nevertheless, as the new world order approaches, different faiths are going to attempt a "unity of compromise" with each other by skimming the Scriptures and taking that which is the least offensive and onerous to everyone, what is politically correct, what satisfies the "needs" of special interest groups, and write that up as their "doctrine." "Progressive" churches of Christ are not immune from such an approach.

Therefore, each church of Christ congregation must be willing to remain faithful to the Scriptures, to abstain from incorporating worldly, drawing-card gimmicks as the denominations do, to preach the whole Gospel, and to stay on the straight and narrow (albeit unpopular) path of Christ to salvation.

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Ev. Luther TAKA
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Need more explanation

November 8 2006, 12:18 PM 

I am more than ready to totally agree with you. But what is still uncertain is how we can come about what you describe as “to have full unity in Christ, all people must be willing to yield completely to Christ, to follow His commands and the New Testament to the letter, veering neither to the left hand nor to the right, without regard for personal preferences”. If you were asked to make practical suggestions on how to achieve this “Scriptural unity of Christ” by "all people" on the grounds of some kind of doctrinal “harmonization”, what would it be?
Thank you!

Luther TAKA

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bro. I. Hardville
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god said it

September 5 2007, 1:05 PM 

yes to jesus yesterday, yes to jesus today, yes to jesus tomorrow, there is no other way.

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stephen christian ministry
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re partnership and prayer to our ministry

January 12 2008, 9:55 AM 

we as stephens christian ministry kindly ask for prayers from your ministry and as well partnership
please do respond to this through our mail
yours in christ

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Donnie Cruz
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How many man- or woman-founded religious bodies in “the body of Christ”?

April 29 2006, 5:39 PM 

This is a compiled short list of denominations [so far only] from the Catholic [hmmm, surprised at their divisions?], Orthodox, Lutheran and Reformed Churches.

For those who call for unity with various denominations which claim to be “Christian,” which of these religious bodies would you consider being united with? If not all, which ones would you object to being united with the “body of Christ”?

  • Armenian Catholic Church
  • Byzantine Catholic Church
  • Chaldean Catholic Church
  • Coptic Catholic Church
  • Greek Catholic Church
  • Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
  • Latin Church
  • Maronite Catholic Church
  • Melkite Catholic Church
  • Ruthenian Catholic Church
  • Serbian Catholic Church
  • Syro-Malabar Catholic Church
  • Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
  • Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
  • American Catholic Church in the United States
  • Ancient Apostolic Communion
  • Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church
  • Catholic Apostolic National Church
  • Catholic Apostolic Church
  • Catholic Apostolic Church in North America (CACINA)
  • Catholic Life Church
  • Celtic Catholic Church
  • Charismatic Episcopal Church
  • Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association
  • Christ Catholic Church
  • Free Catholic Church
  • Liberal Catholic Church
  • Mariavite Church
  • North American Old Catholic Church
  • Old Catholic Church
  • Palmarian Catholic Church
  • Philippine Independent Church
  • Polish National Catholic Church
  • Sedevacantism
  • True Catholic Church
  • Assyrian Church of the East
  • Armenian Apostolic Church
  • Coptic Orthodox Church
  • Eritrean Orthodox Church
  • Orthodox Church of Constantinople
  • Orthodox Church of Alexandria
  • Antiochian Orthodox Church
  • Orthodox Church of Jerusalem
  • Orthodox Church in America
  • Greek Old Calendarists
  • Macedonian Orthodox Church
  • Russian Old Believers
  • Western Orthodox Church in America (WOCA)
  • Utraquists (Hussites)
  • Taborites (Hussites)
  • Moravians (Hussites)
  • Unity of the Brethren (Hussites)
  • Lollards
  • Waldensians
  • American Association of Lutheran Churches (AALC)
  • Apostolic Lutheran Church of America
  • Association of Free Lutheran Congregations
  • Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America
  • Church of the Lutheran Confession
  • Concordia Lutheran Conference
  • Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference
  • All Saints Lutheran Church
  • Christ the King Lutheran
  • Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Church
  • Evangelical Lutheran Church "Concord"
  • Confessional Lutheran Church
  • Evangelical Lutheran Confessional Church
  • Evangelical Lutheran Free Church
  • Evangelical Lutheran Synod
  • Lutheran Confessional Church
  • Lutheran Evangelical Christian Church
  • Evangelical Catholic Church
  • International Lutheran Council
  • Christian Evangelical Lutheran Church
  • Evangelical Lutheran Church
  • Free Evangelical Lutheran Synod
  • Gutnius Lutheran Church
  • Independent Evangelical—Lutheran Church
  • Laestadian Lutheran Church
  • Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ - USA
  • Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
  • Lutheran Ministerium and Synod - USA
  • Lutheran World Federation
  • Christian Lutheran Church
  • Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession
  • Evangelical Church of the Lutheran Confession
  • Evangelical Lutheran Free Church
  • Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
  • Lutheran Church of Faith and Hope
  • United Evangelical Lutheran Church
  • Evangelical Covenant Church (Swedish Covenant)
  • Evangelical Free Church (E V Free)
  • Baptist General Conference (Swedish Baptist)
  • Congregational Federation of Australia
  • Canadian and American Reformed Churches
  • Christian Reformed Church in North America
  • Christian Reformed Churches
  • Church of Lippe
  • Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches
  • Dutch Reformed Church
  • Evangelical Reformed Church
  • Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches
  • Federation of Reformed Churches
  • Free Reformed Churches of North America
  • Heritage Reformed Congregations
  • Orthodox Christian Reformed Church
  • Protestant Reformed Churches in America
  • Reformed Christian Church
  • Reformed Church
  • Remonstrant Brotherhood
  • United Church of Christ
  • United Reformed Church
  • United Reformed Churches in North America

We haven’t even listed the other hundreds of denominations from the Presbyterian Churches, Mormons, Anabaptists, Brethren, Baptists, Charismatics, Friends (Quakers), Methodists, Holiness Churches, Pentecostalism, Oneness Pentecostalism, Neo-Charismatic Churches, Anglican/Episcopalian, Apostolic Churches, Sabbath-Keeping Christian Churches, etc.

Please let me know if we should continue with the list … in order to illustrate the salient point that the New Testament speaks of only one body of Christ.


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April 30 2006, 1:21 AM 

You forgot, the church I am a member of, the church Christ died for, autonomous, and non-denominational, the true ekklesia of Jesus.

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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

Whoa … Whoa … Whoa!!!

April 30 2006, 8:30 AM 


No, I did not forget—it was intentional for the following reason:

I agree with you that the church for which Christ died is congregationally autonomous, non-denominational, the kingdom prophesied in the Old Testament, the kingdom spoken of in Matt. 16:18-19 (when Christ said to Peter, “I will build my church … and give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven”). Remember the fulfillment of the prophecy in Acts 1-2, when Peter preached in Jerusalem to those that heard and believed, “Repent and be baptized so that your sins will be forgiven (blotted out) and the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord” (Acts 2:37-38,41; Acts 3:19)?

If you do remember the passages, then the prophesied kingdom or church established by Christ in Jerusalem is the true church that belongs to its founder.

Do you see now why Christ’s church was not included in that list of denominational or religious bodies founded by men and women?

Did you miss the last statement in my previous post when I said “… in order to illustrate the salient point that the New Testament speaks of only one body of Christ”?


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(no login)


April 30 2006, 10:41 PM 

What about all of the different types of Churches of Christ?

One cuppers
No Sunday School
Non cooperative
plus many more too numerous to mention

Which of them is the Church Jesus Died for and which are man made? The only type of church that matters are the ones that Jesus includes. It is not up to us to make that decision for Him.

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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

It may be a health hazard

May 1 2006, 3:15 AM 


Which “type of congregation” among churches of Christ (Rom. 16:16) are you a member of?

One cuppers—A few congregations may not be that concerned about health issues. If the members of a congregation are of “the same mind and of the same judgment” in this regard, I do not see it as a problem. Besides, multiple cups or one cup is not a spiritual issue at all—unlike as when a Catholic priest is the only one who drinks “all of it.” It’s not surprising that the change agents would use this as an example to justify their faulty assumption that there is “unity in diversity.” That’s hardly the case here because the use of one cup or multiple cups does not alter the command for Christians to commemorate Christ’s sacrifice and death on the cross.

No Sunday School—This type of congregation of the Lord’s church is correct in believing that the gathering of the saints, after all, is all about commemorating the Lord’s death and studying God’s word as a school of the Bible on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7)—and there’s already your “Sunday School” in that gathering or assembly.

The body of Christ still belongs to Christ when it follows His and the apostles’ teachings and is not ashamed to bear the name of its founder—whether or not it assembles in a non-air-conditioned building, in a home or in a gymnasium; whether or not members have been baptized in the lake, in a Presbyterian church building or in the river; etc.


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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

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5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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