Re: It may be a health hazard
|May 3 2006, 6:31 PM |
The only problems with your comments Donnie are:
1. These other groups would not have anything to do with you, Since you do not agree with them. While clearly you have no problem with accepting there different beliefs.
2. The argument against Sunday schools went something like: We do not want to be like the Baptist down the street. These people do not believe that Sunday schools are Biblical and they think that those who started having them are wrong. And while they probably did not use the term, the ones who brought them in were Change Agents and trouble makers in their minds.
I think that it is sad that a group of believers who profess to only follow the Word and essentially started as a group to bring unity to all believers by going back to the Bible has itself disintegrated into many many different groups most of which have nothing to do with each other. And many (thank goodness not all) feel that they are the only ones going to heaven.
|May 3 2006, 9:49 PM |
I think is the foundation of all false dogma. You probably forgot that the church of Christ identified itself as a SCHOOL OF CHRIST as the ekklesia or synagogue is a school of the Bible. T. Campbell identified worship as reading and musing the Word. Church WAS uniquely Sunday School open for all.
You also forgot that the modern Sunday School movement had begun and was taken up by Standard publishing intended that ALL churches buy material from them. The only AUTHORIZED song book for ALL churches must be the Standard version which they somehow pried loose from Alexander Campbell.
The Sunday School Board was NOT under the oversight of the elders. Therefore the ANTI Sunday school people did not STOP doing something or refuse to BEGIN something: they kept on doing what they had always done. It is too bad that the Sunday School Department got stolen by the women who TRY to have 12the graders doing cut out and paste ups. They tried to force my daughter to teach some vapid disjointed material on the Old Testament with cutesy cutsey stuff with a PIG as the central character.
So, did the Sunnday School system produce the epidemic of effeminate preachers and MUSICIANS or what? Could you prove that your kids know more than those who don't have the DIVIDED CLASS system? You probably can't find people who reject teaching the BIBLE: they just don't do it your way. Would you INFILTRATE and steal a happy congregation getting adult level education and drinking out of one cup just to make the MODERN?
Don't doing something because the BAPTISTS did it before is wacko, Jacko: people just make it up.
One cup or one assemblythe church will always exist
|May 4 2006, 4:57 AM |
Honestly, I do not have any problem with my comments. Neither should anyone who believes or is convinced that the church established by Christ at Pentecost belongs to him. His church is not a denomination from what I know is revealed in the New Testament.
As I have already mentioned, the observance of the Lords Supper is the commandwhich is not violated or altered by the unspecified use of one cup, a pitcher, clear or colored multiple cups, etc. If I were to be in assembly with the one cuppers, I would simply obligeand forget about my own health hazard mentality. If these brethren have a fellowship issue, then, that is between them and Godbut it certainly does not preclude the church from its existence. Again, this is NOT a doctrinal issueit is not a different beliefs kind of thing because the Lords sacrifice and death is still commemorated as commanded.
In regard to the Sunday School issue, we must realize that it is not addressed in the New Testament. Neither is the worship service. Now, assembling of ourselves together or the assembly is referencedan indication that exhortation or teaching or admonishing one another is the purpose. That gathering clearly suggests that it is a Bible school in itself, regardless of whether or not some nearby church does it. No Sunday School or Sunday School only on Sunday limits the study of the Bible. Acts 17:10-11 encourages Christians to search the scriptures DAILY as the Bereans did in the first century.
Again, it is a faulty assumption that because there are dissenting members or congregations
that the church of our Lord does not or should not exist. I feel that most of the congregations of the group you were alluding to are united because of the common agreement on the doctrine of salvation in the blood of the Lamb offered to mankind through Gods love, grace and mercy. They are the only ones going to heaven? Who says and believes that? Or, is that only an accusation by the antagonists?
|Ev. Luther TAKA|
RE: How many man- or woman-founded religious bodies in the body of Christ?
|November 8 2006, 12:36 PM |
Please, if you can, send me the list or post it as a reply to this request. I would be more than glad if you can also include references (Books, journals, websites
Thank you in advance!
Which of the many man- or woman-founded religious bodies
|May 6 2006, 12:33 PM |
In the previous list of denominations, we included the divisions among the Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran and Reformed Churches.
The following additional list of denominations [so far only] includes religious divisions from the Presbyterian, Mormon, Anabaptist, Brethren and Baptist Churches.
For those who call for unity with various denominations which claim to be Christian, which of these religious bodies would you consider being united with? If not all, which ones would you object to being united with the body of Christ?
There are still the following major religious denominations and their divisions not yet listed:
- Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
- Bible Presbyterian Church
- Church of Scotland
- Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches
- Cumberland Presbyterian Church
- Evangelical Presbyterian Church
- First Presbyterian Church
- Free Church of Scotland
- Free Church of Scotland Continuing
- Free Presbyterian Church
- Korean Presbyterian Church in America
- Orthodox Presbyterian Church
- Presbyterian Church in America
- Presbyterian Church USA
- Presbyterian Reformed Church
- Reformed Presbyterian Church
- Reformed Presbyterian Church - Covenanted
- Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America
- Reformed Presbytery in North America
- United Free Church of Scotland
- Uniting Presbyterian Church in Southern Africa
- Westminster Presbyterian Church
- China Christian Council
- Church of Bangladesh
- Church of Pakistan
- Church of North India
- Syrian Marthoma Church in India
- Church of South India
- Evangelical Church in Germany
- Protestant Church in the Netherlands from 1 May 2004
- United Church of Canada
- United Church of Christ
- Uniting Church in Australia
- United Church in Papua New Guinea and the Solomon Islands
- Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons)
- Beachy Amish
- Nebraska Amish
- Old Order Amish
- Swartzendruber Amish
- Bruderhof Communities
- Alliance of Mennonite Evangelical Congregations
- Anabaptist Association of Australia and New Zealand
- Brethren in Christ
- Chortitzer Mennonite Conference
- Church of God in Christ, Mennonite (aka Holdeman Mennonites)
- Conservative Mennonite Conference
- Evangelical Mennonite Church
- Evangelical Mennonite Conference
- Evangelical Mennonite Mission Conference
- Fellowship of Evangelical Bible Churches (formerly Evangelical Mennonite Brethren)
- Canadian Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches
- Japan Mennonite Brethren Conference
- US Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches
- Mennonite Church USA
- Mennonite World Conference
- Swiss Mennonite Conference
- Church of the United Brethren in Christ
- Plymouth Brethren
- River Brethren
- Brethren in Christ Church
- Old Order River Brethren
- United Zion Church
- Schwarzenau Brethren
- Church of the Brethren
- Conservative Grace Brethren Churches, International
- Dunkard Brethren
- Ephrata Cloister
- Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches
- Old German Baptist Brethren
- Old Order German Baptist Brethren
- The Brethren Church (Ashland Brethren)
- Social Brethren
[NOTE: This is not an attempt to single out the Baptist Churches by identifying individual countries. According to sources: All Baptist associations are congregationalist affiliations for the purpose of cooperation, in which each local church is governmentally independent.]
- Alliance of Baptists
- American Baptist Association
- American Baptist Churches USA
- Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland
- Association of Grace Baptist Churches
- Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
- Association of Regular Baptist Churches
- Baptist Bible Fellowship International
- Baptist Conference of the Philippines
- Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec
- Baptist Convention of Western Cuba
- Baptist General Conference
- Baptist General Conference of Canada
- Baptist General Convention of Texas
- Baptist Missionary Association of America
- Baptist Union of Australia
- Baptist Union of Great Britain
- Baptist Union of New Zealand
- Baptist Union of Scotland
- Baptist Union of Western Canada
- Baptist World Alliance
- Bible Baptist
- Canadian Baptist Ministries
- Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists
- Central Baptist Association
- Central Canada Baptist Conference
- Christian Unity Baptist Association
- Colored Primitive Baptists
- Conservative Baptist Association
- Conservative Baptist Association of America
- Conservative Baptists
- Continental Baptist Churches
- Convención Nacional Bautista de Mexico
- Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches
- Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
- European Baptist Convention
- European Baptist Federation
- Evangelical Baptist Mission of South Haiti
- Evangelical Free Baptist Church
- Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada
- Free Will Baptist Church
- Fundamental Baptist Fellowship of America
- General Association of Baptists
- General Association of General Baptists
- General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
- General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
- General Six-Principle Baptists
- Global Independent Baptist Fellowship
- Grace Baptist Assembly
- Independent Baptists
- Independent Baptist Church of America
- Independent Baptist Fellowship International
- Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America
- Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist Association
- Landmark Baptist Church
- Liberty Baptist Fellowship
- Myanmar Baptist Convention
- National Baptist Convention of America, Inc.
- National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.
- National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A.
- National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
- National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
- New England Evangelical Baptist Fellowship
- New Testament Association of Independent Baptist Churches
- North American Baptist Conference
- Norwegian Baptist Union
- Old Baptist Union
- Old Regular Baptists
- Old Time Missionary Baptists
- Primitive Baptists
- Progressive Baptists
- Progressive National Baptist Convention
- Reformed Baptists
- Regular Baptist Churches, General Association of
- Regular Baptists
- Separate Baptists
- Separate Baptists in Christ
- Seventh Day Baptists
- Southeast Conservative Baptists
- Southern Baptist Convention
- Southern Baptists of Texas
- Sovereign Grace Baptists
- Strict Baptists
- Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
- Union D'Eglises Baptistes Francaises Au Canada
- United American Free Will Baptist Church
- United American Free Will Baptist Conference
- United Baptist Convention of the Atlantic Provinces
- United Baptists
- United Free Will Baptist
- Unregistered Baptist Fellowship
- World Baptist Alliance
- World Baptist Fellowship
[To be continued
Again, which one or ones of these would the change agents unite with the body of Christ. Conversely, and better yet, based on the desires and goals of the change agents to disband the body of Christ in order to achieve unity [from their perspectives, i.e.], which one (or ones) of the above should Christs church unite with? The biggest question is HOW can Christs church in unity with another religious body or other religious bodies be ACHIEVED? Should it be a selective process (as in, which denominations are desirable)? Is it achievable? Is it insane?
- Friends (Quakers) and Their Offshoots
- Pietists and Holiness Churches
- Oneness Pentecostalism
- Neo-charismatic churches
- Other movement churches
- Anglican/Episcopal Church
- Sabbath Keeping Christian Churches
Which of the many man- or woman-founded religious bodies
|May 13 2006, 8:27 PM |
LIST NO. 3:
In the other preceding lists of denominations, we included the divisions among the Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Reformed, Presbyterian, Brethren, and Baptist Churches.
This third list includes the Methodist, Anglican/Episcopalian, Seventh-Day Adventist Churches.
Also listed are from these groups: Charismatic, Holiness, Pentecostal, Oneness Pentecostal, Neo-Charismatic Churches which have a combined worldwide membership larger than any of the Protestant Churches.
Although churches of Christ are included in the list above [as the religious world thinks that it is a religious body, just another denomination], contrary to the apostates and change agents suggestion that the church of Christ is dividedand is, therefore, not any different from othersit is noteworthy that statistical data out there does NOT separately list one cuppers from no Sunday School congregations, etc. We must acknowledge the significance of it all.
- African Methodist Episcopal Church
- African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
- Bible Methodist Church
- Christian Methodist Episcopal Church
- Congregational Methodist Church
- Church of the Nazarene
- Evangelical Church
- Evangelical Methodist Church
- Free Methodist Church
- Fellowship of Independent Methodist Churches
- Fundamental Methodist Conference, Inc.
- Independent Methodist Church
- Iglesia Metodista de México, Sitio Oficial
- Primitive Methodist Church
- Salvation Army
- United Methodist Church
- Wesleyan Church
- Wesleyan Reform Union
- Anglican Communion
- Church in Wales
- Church of England
- Church of Ireland
- Church of the Province of ______________
- Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East
- Episcopal Church in the United States of America
- Episcopal Church of _______________
- Iglesia Anglicana de la Region Central America
- Iglesia Anglicana del Cono Sud de las Americas
- Igreja Episcopal Anglicana do Brasil
- Kerala Christian Assembly (Canada) 
- Lusitanian Church of Portugal
- Philippine Episcopal Church
- Scottish Episcopal Church
- Spanish Reformed Episcopal Church
- Independent Anglican Churches
- Continuing Anglican Movement Churches
- African Orthodox Church
- African Anglican Orthodox Church Worldwide
- American Anglican Church
- Anglican Catholic Church
- Anglican Church in America
- Anglican Church International Communion
- Anglican Mission in America
- Anglican Orthodox Church
- Anglican Province of America
- Anglican Province of Christ the King
- Christian Episcopal Church
- Church of England (Continuing)
- Church of England in South Africa
- Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches
- Episcopal Missionary Church
- Free Church of England
- Free Protestant Episcopal Church
- Reformed Episcopal Church
- Southern Episcopal Church
- United Episcopal Church
- Catholic Apostolic Church
- Restored Apostolic Mission Church
- New Apostolic Church
- United Apostolic Church
- General Church of the New Jerusalem
- The Lord's New Church which is Nova Hierosolyma
- General Conference of the New Church (England)
- Swedenborgian Church of North America formerly General Convention of the New Jerusalem (USA)
- The New Church in Australia
- The Faith Mission
- Friends (Quakers) and Their Offshoots
- Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)
- Friends General Conference
- Friends United Meeting
- Evangelical Friends International
- United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing (Shakers)
- Chosen People Ministries
- Jews for Jesus
- Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations
- The Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA), founded in 1915, is the largest association of Messianic Jews in the world
- Messianic Bureau International (MBI)
Sabbath Keeping Christian Churches
- Advent Christian Church
- Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith)
- Church of the Blessed Hope (aka Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith)
- Primitive Advent Christian Church
Seventh Day Adventists
- Branch Davidians
- Branch Seventh Day Adventists
- Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church
- Davidian Seventh-Day Adventist Association
- General Association of Davidian Seventh-Day Adventists
- People's Christian Church
- Seventh-Day Adventist Church
- Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement
- International Missionary Society of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church Reform Movement
- Sabbath Rest Advent Church
- Promise Adventist Church - Brazilian Pentecostal Adventists
- The Registry
Sabbath Keeping Churches, Non Adventist
- Assembly of God in Christ Jesus
- Associated Churches, Inc.
- Associates for Scriptural Knowledge
- Biblical Church of God
- Body of Christ Church of God
- Church of God (Anadarko)
- Church of God (Jesus Christ the Head) (UNICO)
- Church of God (O'Brien)
- Church of God (Philadelphia Era)
- Church of God (Sabbatarian)
- Church of God (Seventh Day, Salem, West Virginia)
- Church of God Evangelical Association
- Church of God's Truth
- Church of the Great God
- Congregation of God, Seventh Day
- Congregation of God
- Congregation of Yah
- Foundation for Biblical Research
- Foundation of Life Fellowship
- General Conference of the Church of God (Seventh-Day)
- General Council of the Churches of God
- Global Church of God
- Harmony of Life Fellowship
- International Church of God (ICG)
- Philadelphia Church of God
- Restoration Church of God
- Seventh-Day Church of God
- The Eternal Church of God
- The Pure Truth
- Triumph Prophetic Ministries (Church of God)
- Twentieth Century Church of God (Pennsylvania)
- Twentieth Century Church of God
- United Biblical Church of God
- United Church of God
- United Seventh-Day Brethren
- Universal Church of God
- World Insight International
- Worldwide Church of God
Bible Student Groups
- Back to the Bible Way
- Christian Believers Conference
- Christian Bible Students Association
- Christian Millenial Fellowship
- Christian Prophets of Jehovah
- Dawn Bible Students Association
- Epiphany Bible Students Association
- Independent Bible Students
- Laodicean Home Missionary Movement
- Layman's Home Missionary Movement
- Lord Our Righteousness (Life Support)
- Pastoral Bible Institute
- Philanthropic Assembly
Sacred Name Groups
- Assemblies of YHWHHOSHUA
- Assemblies of Yah
- Assemblies of Yahvah
- Assembly of Yahweh (Easton Rapids, MI)
- Assemblies of Yahweh (Bethel, PA)
- Assemblies of the Called Out Ones of Yah
- Bible Study Association
- Church of God (Jerusalem)
- House of Yahweh (Abilene, Texas)
- House of Yahweh (Odessa, Texas)
- Missionary Dispensary Bible Research
- New Life Fellowship
- Scripture Research Association
- Workers Together with Elohim
- Yahweh's Assembly of Messiah
- Anglo-Saxon Federation of America
- British-Israel-World Federation (Canada), Inc.
- Calvary Fellowship, Inc.
- Christian Conservative Churches of America
- Church of Jesus Christ-Christian (Aryan Nations)
- Kingdom Identity Ministries
- LaPorte Church of Christ
- Christian Research
- Church of Israel
- Covenant, the Sword and the Arm of the Lord
- Evangelical Church of Christ / Commonwealth Covenant Church (New Zealand)
- House of Prayer for All People
- Ministry of Christ Church
- National Association of Kingdom Evangelicals
- New Christian Crusade Church
- Prophetic Herald Ministry
- Remnant of Israel
- Tabernacle of the Phineas Priesthood
- Christian Israelite Church
- Israelite House of David
- Israelite House of David as Reorganized by Mary Purnell
- Yahweh's New Covenant Assembly
- Church of the East and Abroad
- Christian Nations - Eagle Warriors
- Church of God (Reinersten)
- Kingdom of God on Earth Within Man
- Remnant Church
- Restored Israel of Yahweh
- Shiloh True Light Church of Christ
- Star of Truth Foundation
- True Church
- church of god world mission society
Gnosticism, Nontrinitarian, New Thought, Christian mystery religion
- Ecclesia Gnostica
- Bogomils (extinct)
- Borborites (extinct)
- Carpocratians (extinct)
- Cathars (extinct)
- Manichaeism (extinct)
- American Unitarian Conference
- Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith
- Home Ecclesia Association
- Iglesia ni Cristo
- Magi Network
- Unification Church
- Unitarian Christian Association
- Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship
- United Pentecostal Church International
- Christian anarchism
- Divine Science
- Religious Science
- Unity Church
- Esoteric Christianity
- The Rosicrucian Fellowship
- Spiritism (regarded as an auxiliary doctrine)
Charismatics, Pietists and Holiness Churches, Pentecostalism, Oneness Pentecostalism, Neo-charismatic churches, Other movement churches
- New Frontiers
- Vineyard Movement
- Sovereign Grace Ministries
- Charismatic Episcopal Church
- Full Gospel
- Apostolic Christian Church
- Bible Fellowship Church
- Christian & Missionary Alliance
- Christian's Missionary Church
- Church of Christ (Holiness) U.S.A.
- Church of God (Anderson)
- Church of God (Guthrie, Oklahoma)
- Church of God (Holiness)
- Churches of God General Conference (Winebrenner)
- Church of the Nazarene
- Evangelical Covenant Church
- Missionary Church
- United Christian Church
- Abundant Life Worship Centers
- Apostolic Assemblies of Christ
- Apostolic Church of Pentecost of Canada
- Apostolic Faith Church
- Assemblies of God
- Assembly of Pentecostal Churches of Jesus Christ
- Calvary Holiness Association
- Charismatic Episcopal Church
- Christian City Churches
- Christ Gospel Churches International
- Christian Church of North America
- Christian Congregation of Brazil
- Christian Outreach Centre
- Christian Revival Crusade
- Church of God (Charleston, Tennessee)
- Church of God (Chattanooga)
- Church of God (Cleveland)
- Church of God (Huntsville, Alabama)
- Church of God (Jerusalem Acres)
- Church of God for All Nations
- Church of God by Faith
- Church of God, House of Prayer
- Church of God in Christ
- Church of God Mountain Assembly
- Church of God of Prophecy
- Church of God with Signs Following
- Church of God of the Union Assembly
- Church of the Little Children of Jesus Christ
- Congregational Holiness Church
- CRC Churches International
- Destiny Church
- Elim Fellowship
- Elim Pentecostal Church
- Fire Baptized Holiness Church of God of the Americas
- God is Love Pentecostal Church
- Holiness Baptist Association
- Independent Assemblies of God, International
- International Church of the Foursquare Gospel
- International Pentecostal Church of Christ
- International Pentecostal Holiness Church
- Ministers Fellowship International
- New Life Churches
- Open Bible Standard Churches (association of autonomous churches)
- Pentecostal Mission
- Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada
- Pentecostal Assemblies of Newfoundland
- Pentecostal Church of God
- Pentecostal Free Will Baptist Church
- Pentecostal/Charismatic Churches of North America
- Pentecostal Churches of the Apostolic Faith
- Pentecostal World Conference
- Redeemed Christian Church of God
- The Church of God (Jerusalem Acres)
- The Church of God for All Nations
- The Fellowship (FGFCMI)
- United Gospel Tabernacles
- United Holy Church of America
- United Pentecostal Churches of Christ
- Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Christ Jesus
- Apostolic Brethren
- Apostolic Church of the Faith in Jesus Christ
- Apostolic Overcoming Holy Church of God
- Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ
- Bible Way Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ
- Church of Jesus Christ of Prophecy
- Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith
- International Church of Jesus Christ
- Pentecostal Assemblies of the World
- Potter's House Christian Fellowship
- United Pentecostal Church
- Kimbanguist Church
- The Church of the Lord (Aladura)
- Zion Christian Church
- True Jesus Church,
- Church Assembly Hall
- New Birth Movement
- Montagnard Evangelical Church
- Bible Christian Mission
- Filadelfia Fellowship
- New Life Fellowship
- New Life Outreach
- Reaching Indians Ministries
- Believers' Churches in India
- Rajasthan Bible Institute
- Calvary Chapel
- Church of Christ, Instrumental (aka Kelleyites)
- Children of God
- Christian City Church (aka "CCC" or "C3i")
- City Harvest Church
- Evangelical Covenant Church of America ("Swedish Evangelical Mission Covenant")
- Evangelical Free Church of America
- Grace Movement Churches
- Hope Church Singapore
- Fellowship of Fundamental Bible Churches
- Great Commission Association
- Indian Shakers
- New Frontiers (formerly New Frontiers International)
- Metropolitan Community Churches
- Schwenkfelder Church
- Two by Two (aka The Truth, The Way) and its offshoot Cooneyites
- Vineyard Movement
- Charismatic Episcopal Church
- The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
- Church of Christ, Scientist
- Jehovah's Witnesses
- New Age: The Christian Community
- Disciples of Christ
- Christian Church
- Churches of Christ
- International Churches of Christ (Boston Movement)
Do you see why the proponents of the Change Movement among churches of Christ would have you convinced that ecumenism is the way to goi.e., churches of Christ should just openly fellowship with others regardless of doctrine? How absurd and impractical!
The change agents who conveniently call for unity with various denominations which claim to be Christian would not be able to respond to the big questionswhich of these religious bodies would you consider the church of Christ being united with?
Isnt it about time for the change movers to leave the church alone? Otherwise, the change agentsthose who sow discord in the brotherhoodshould start their own from scratch.
- If the response is with all of the above, then, it aint gonna happen.
- If the response is NOT with all of the abovewhich means being selectivewhich ones would the change agents object to being united with the body of Christ? And how would they determine the methodology for choosing? Ecumenism among selected churches has been attempted many times before. It has NEVER worked.
I didnt bother to count the number of divided religious bodies listed above, even though several denominations identified with their localities (country, province, regions, continent, etc.) have already been removed.
Would someone care to count the number of religions from the three (3) sets of unordered list of churches, and post the total below?
A TIME TO UNITE, A TIME TO SEPARATE (by John Waddey)
|May 21 2006, 9:44 AM |
A TIME TO UNITE, A TIME TO SEPARATE
Solomon reminds us there is time for everything (Eccle. 3:1). These verses are not only appropriate for weddings and funeral, but also for situations such as presently confront our brotherhood.
Without doubt heaven's wish is that all Christians stand united in Christ (John 17:21). When we have a common salvation, a common faith and a common goal, we must strive to maintain that unity (Eph. 4:3).
It is certainly to our benefit to be united as a people. A united church is stronger and more effective than a divided church. United we can devote our full time and energy to productive and constructive work for the Master. Standing together we mute many of the accusations of the Evil One.
Given all the above, the fact is there are times and situations that demand separation.
All of this should come as no surprise to those who know God's Word. Jesus himself said He came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother (Matt. 10:34). The meaning being that loyalty to him and his will must take precedence over that to family and relatives. One becomes a Christian, the other does not. One is faithful to Christ the other is unfaithful. Such situations will always cause separations and division. We should be ready and eager to have unity and fellowship with any man or woman who is obedient to the teaching of Christ. But when a man or a school or a congregation sets about to change the doctrine and the worship ordained by Christ, to change the very nature of Christ's church, then our loyalty to our Savior and King demands that we follow him even if it means leaving the others behind.
- We cannot be united with folks who themselves are not united with Christ. We are united with Christ when immersed with him in the likeness of his death (Rom. 6:3-5).
- We cannot be united with those who walk disorderly and not according to the apostolic traditions (II Thess. 3:6).
- We cannot be united with those who cause divisions and occasions of stumbling contrary to the doctrine which we have learned from the apostles of Christ. In fact we are instructed to turn away from them (Rom. 16:17).
- We cannot be united with those are living ungodly lives. Paul specifically says, "Put away the wicked man from among yourselves" (I Cor. 5:13).
- We cannot be united with those of our brethren who go onward and abide not in the teaching of Christ. To do so is to partake in their evil works (II John 9-11).
- We cannot be united with those whose approach to worship and the message of Christ is patently contrary to what we know to be God's Truth. Amos asked, "Shall two walk together, unless they have agreed?" (Amos 3:3).
- We cannot continue in unity and fellowship with those whose false teaching is like leaven that is threatening to corrupt the whole body of Christ. Paul says to purge out the old leaven (I Cor. 5:6-7).
- We cannot be united with those who are working to destroy the very church to which we have been added (Acts 2:47); for which we have labored and sacrificed; which we believe to be Christ's sacred body and kingdom on earth. To be united and on cordial terms with the enemies of the church of Christ is to be unfaithful to Christ the head of the church.
One of Satan's deceptive tricks is to press the faithful Christian to continue in fellowship with flagrant error to preserve unity. We must not fall for that deception. Those who compromise with error are often swallowed up by the error.
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now
IN CASE YOU HAVENT HEARD (by John Waddey)
|May 23 2006, 8:11 AM |
IN CASE YOU HAVENT HEARD
It is obvious that many brethren live such insulated lives that they do not know what is transpiring in our far-flung brotherhood. Some have heard rumors about certain preachers, congregations or schools abandoning the ancient faith. The following quotes from a Bro. GH, a vocal change agent, will help folks see the danger confronting us:
Can you imagine the spiritual state of the church where Bro. GH preaches? Sad, sad!
- The church of the 60s and 70s is irrelevant to todays world. What most change advocates want to change is not the gospel, but HOW we do what we do.
- Jesus was many things including a change agent. The prophets were change agents. Such people are always demonized by the protectors of the status quo, then killed by the protectors of the status quo.
- I teach people that baptism is part of their obedience to God, but I would accept a person into fellowship who claimed Jesus as Lord even if he/she had not been immersed. My job is to accept those who claim Jesus and are not open and obviously a threat to the flock. Ill let God sort it all out.
if I teach that a woman may instruct a class of men and women, does that mean I am a false teacher who should not be fellowshiped?
- Am I not in Jesus just as you?
- You refer to our historical record as a church. You are right to do so, for that history allows a clear view of a corpse that once was a church that was tolerant and open.
- Unity is more important than the instrument.
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now
Just some thoughts.
|May 30 2006, 1:04 PM |
I teach people that baptism is part of their obedience to God, but I would accept a person into fellowship who claimed Jesus as Lord even if he/she had not been immersed. My job is to accept those who claim Jesus and are not open and obviously a threat to the flock. Ill let God sort it all out.
Interesting thought from Mr. GH. I wonder if he believes that man is forgiven of his sins, by God, when he is baptized (immersed) into Christ. If so, is he content to allow this person to be lost, to spend eternity in hell because their sins were not forgiven? It seems a high price to pay in order to keep the peace, and all for the sake of unity in the the flock. Especially a high price for the one who is going to hell.
Now, Is baptism required for obedience to God? It seems Mr. GH believes so. And, if so, this hypothetical person who claims to know Jesus but does not obey Him would clearly be a liar. I John 2:4 The only other option is that baptism is not in fact required for obedience, and for the forgiveness of sin, and that may very well be the true doctrinal goal behind many of those that want to accept every one that claims Jesus.
He may view his job as accepting those who claim Jesus regardless of their obedience to Him, but the Bible tells us not to judge. (Judge falsely) We would do well to remember that false judgment is not only condemning the innocent but also releasing the guilty.
All of this talk of unity. What about the lost? There is more at stake here then why cant we all just get along. There are souls! Are we willing to send them down the river in order to have a group hug?
New to the forum,
Piercing Questions on Unity
|June 11 2006, 1:57 AM |
Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 1:20 PM
Subject: [fortify your faith] A Lesson to Fortify Your Faith
Dear Fellow Christian: I urge you to take time to read the lesson below. It speaks to serious challenges facing the church of our generation. If you find it helpful and above all, biblical, I hope you will forward it to other Christians in your email address book.
By cooperating together we can have a positive, constructive influence on our fellow Christians.
PIERCING QUESTIONS ON UNITY
It is the desire of God that disciples of Christ be united in the bond of peace (Eph. 4:3). We are expected to work to that end! A great deal is spoken and written about unity and the sin of division , but the careful student soon discovers that there are other dimensions to the subject that are also important.
Paul asked the Corinthian brethren several pointed questions about unity and fellowship:
The obvious answer to all of these questions is none. This should prompt us to pause and consider our own situation.
- "What fellowship hath righteousness and iniquity?"
- "What communion hath light with darkness?"
- "What concord hath Christ with Belial?"
- "What portion hath a believer with an unbeliever?" (II Cor. 6:14-16)
It sometimes happens that people end up in the fellowship of the church who by their conduct or teaching make themselves unworthy of the privilege. Sinful conduct or dangerous false teachings are as darkness when compared to Christ and his standards. Disruptive disciples or teachers of destructive heresies advance the cause of Belial rather than that of the Son of God. In our day it is not uncommon for skeptics and unbelievers to infiltrate the church. Some lose their faith along the way, most often while pursuing higher education! Yet they persist in staying within the church. Especially is this true of preachers who have lost their faith. It is naive to think such can never happen in our brotherhood. Just look at the rank unbelief that has captured many Protestant bodies and especially the Disciples of Christ who once were part of us. What union can the faithful believer in God, Christ and the Bible have with those who no longer believe in them?
The fact is, unity is an ideal, a goal toward which we all must strive. The reality is, there have always been and will always be those wanting to operate among us with whom we cannot have brotherly fellowship. We are ordered to mark them that cause divisions and occasions of stumbling contrary to the doctrine we receive and turn away from them! The reason being, "they serve not the Lord Christ, but their own bellies" (Rom. 16:18).
Surely Christians should ever be seekers of and workers for unity with all other fellow-Christians (Eph. 4:3). We must never be guilty of conduct or teaching that would cause division in the body of Christ that is contrary to his teaching. But to be true to the Master, there will be times that faithfulness demands that we withhold our fellowship from disorderly or divisive disciples. It is yet another of Satan's deceptive lies when a man teaches us to pursue fellowship with those who are not obedient children of God!
- There are those who teach another gospel. In so doing they make themselves anathema from God, i.e., cut off and rejected (Gal. 1: 9). How can we have unity and loving fellowship with such people?
- There are some who are lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof: from these also turn away" (II Tim. 3:5). How can we enjoy fellowship with such disciples?
- Those teachers who abide not in the teaching of Christ are not in fellowship with either the Father or the Son (II John 9). It is no wonder that the apostle wrote, Give him no greeting and receive him not into your house "for he that giveth him greeting partaketh in his evil works" (II John 10-11). Here again is a clear case where we are to withhold fellowship from a person or persons who claim to be members of Christ's church but are not faithful servants!
- Paul did not hesitate to withhold his fellowship from Hymenaeus and Alexander who had made shipwreck concerning the faith (I Tim. 2:19-20). He delivered them unto Satan, i.e., he withdrew his fellowship from them (Comp. I Cor. 5:5).
- Permission is given to copy and distribute all lessons in this weekly series.
- Scores of lessons on the change movement are available at http://www.christianity-then-and-now.com
- Books by John Waddey: Surviving the Storms of Change ($18); Books About the Change Movement: Reviews and Recommendations ($16); Sacred Principles on Which We Stand ($11.75). Make checks to church of Christ and send to John Waddey, 12630 W. Foxfire Dr. Sun City West, AZ 85375
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now
Is the church of Christ really non-denominational?
|June 13 2006, 6:20 PM |
I used to think that the church of Christ was a non-denominational church, but I was wrong. I find that the church is really more divided than anyone in the church would like to admit. In fact there are so many shades of the church of Christ that I think anyone who went from church to church would find that each one is different the the other.
Here is a solid fact about the church of Christ,
No church is the same, meaning beliefs, and the members in each church rarely see eye to eye on everything.
People in the church of Christ talk about how God hates divison, and he does by the way, but in reality the church of Christ is more divided now than ever, and not just from church to church but from member to member. I think the log in our eye is really making it difficult to extrude the log out of our brothers. Just my thoughts.
Re: Is the church of Christ really non-denominational?
|June 14 2006, 2:40 AM |
It appears that your premise is faulty unless the expression that the church of Christ is meant to be that the church that belongs to Christ. It really doesnt matter what the denominational world thinkswhat it thinks is not going to change anyway and regardless. What matters is what each member who belongs to Christs church believes what church He established at Pentecost.
Lets rephrase your premise in this manner and see the difference:
I used to think that the church that belongs to Christ was a non-denominational church, but I was wrong.What a difference there could be in our own attitude concerning the Lords church by simply honestly expressing something of this magnitude in a scriptural manner. The likely conclusion would be that the church that belongs to Christ is non-denominational. Indeed!!!
If a member of this body of Christ truly believes that He is the owner of the church He founded and also believes that it is patterned after New Testament guidelines, he shouldnt even question the validity that there is one body, one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all (Eph. 4:4-6).
Does it mean that each member is sinless? Of course, not! Does it mean that all congregations should have a set [same] time and length of assembly period, or have the same number of elders, use one cup or multi-colored cups, etc.? No!
Does it mean that someone who hears the gospel and believes in the Savior needs to repent and be baptized in order to receive remission of sins and be added to the Lords church? Yes.
Does it mean that each congregation should adhere to Pauls admonition
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (I Cor. 1:10)Yes! Is unity achievable? Yes! When the elders of the local congregation are grounded in the truth and are apt to teach [one qualification, BTW], cf. I Timothy 3:2; and feed the flock (I Peter 5:2) and are examples to the flock (I Peter 5:3).
Does the above passage apply to differences from member to member? No
not any more than to say that a Christian does not sin any longer or cannot fall from grace. So, please discard this idea that individual differences should make the church that belongs to Christ denominational.
It is my hope that you would re-evaluate your premise. The church that belongs to Christ is non-denominational.
What makes someones theology more right than anothers?
|June 14 2006, 4:07 PM |
I agree that everyone in that church will have the same theology about salvation. That is a given. But what about things that don't deal with salvation like musical instruments, how we take the Lord's Supper, not the time, but the manner we do it. Supporting Oprhanages, having a kitchen in the building, etc... Can a church be divided by this. How conseravtive is too conservative and liberal to liberal. I mean is every church right in their own sense or just yours. There are so many shades of the church of Christ it isn't even funny. Thanks for your response.
My life in the church
|June 14 2006, 6:16 PM |
I grew up at Birdville Church of Christ in Fort Worth Texas. It is a conservative church. I was pretty much taught in fashion that I never really questioned anything just filled in the blanks of ideas and theology already assumed. I was never challenged. I was never taught to find what God says, just except what I was told. When I went to college at OC (Oklahoma Christian) I thought I knew it all, I had all the right awnsers to all the questions. Boy I was so wrong. I knew less of the Bible, than anyone in my classes. I couldn't back up any of the awnsers that I had drumed into my head. I was ashamed and embarraesed and that is when I started to really study God's word for myself. I think that I had my father's faith (my dad) and not my own. I have never changed on how I view God's plan for salvation, but I must say that I don't agree with some I was told at the church were I grew up. I just don't understand why the church of Christ has to be so split. It is, you can say it is not but I grew up in a family that attended 3 types of churches of Christ. They all thought the other was wrong and wouldn't have anything to do with the other. I am talking from anti to liberal. Growing up in that enviroment I saw it first hand. It is horrible and sad and I know it's not what God intended. The church has been changing for so long now, it's not a NEW thing. I find that what really seperates a family is how they view what is law and what is not. I used to be LAW driven I mean VERY! I had no love in my heart. I have seen so many Christians have that attitude. They speak like they are lawyers and not brothers. No love and that is one thing I learned in myself studies. I need to lead with love, not law. If I lead with law first I am only making it harder on me. Love is what Christ lead with. I see so many comments from the people who dictate this site than have no Love. That is were we have really failed. We forgot the love. The replys are so lawyeristic(I don't think that is a word). I just wish that people would learn to lead with love. I believe in one church. The church Christ built. Tell me I grew up in a family of three distinct types of church of Christs, that did not associate with the other, which on is it? Is it your church. I mean what kind of church is yours? I can see how someone could get lost in the churches of Christ, I did. I believe firmly in self study. I will never take someones, preacher or otherwise, on just their words alone. I will find it for myself. I thank you for this time. I hope that people will lead with love. I remember a song that goes God is love, God is love.
|June 15 2006, 7:57 PM |
Stephen, would you share some of your old beliefs and what changed?
Could you explain what you were taught about instrumental music, the textbook and who taught the class? What did they teach that made it more of an optional view?
What other things did you once do but now believe are "optional."
Was this retraining connected with: "That is not a salvation issue?"
Did you find that their teaching of facts was based on whether it was "a salvation issue" or just factual.
Truly interested, Ken
Re: Is the church of Christ really non-denominational?
|June 14 2006, 10:54 AM |
One of the most frustrating ideologies to deal with is this false premise that the Lord's church at ___________ has to answer for the Lord's church at some other place. So why do we have to answer for a group of people that use Christ's name to describe their church but they are not what they should be. (Neither should they have to answer for us if we are not what we should be.) In that case they are apostates that use an accurate description or name of Christs one church.
in reality the church of Christ is more divided now than ever
Respectfully here is where you have missed it completely. The church can not be divided. Are there congregations moving into apostasy? No doubt about it. When they leave the faith they do not divide the church, they separate themselves from it. They lose their candlestick if you will. Even if they still meet together, still have the name on the building, call each other brother and even call me brother. This has happened through the ages. Groups of people who at one time belong to Christ leave so they can serve their own will. They become gods to themselves. Teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.
Acts 20:30 "Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
To whom are the Elders mentioned here drawing disciples after? THEMSELVES!
Do various church of Christ have conflicting teaching? You are right they do and it breaks my heart. But make no mistake, if they or we teach our commandments in substitute for Christs doctrine we are following our own will not Christ. It does not matter what name is on the front of the building? If we do so we or they have not divided the church we have left it.
That is why denominationalism is such a sad thing, as well as being in direct conflict with Gods teaching. We cant all be right. We cant have one group saying, you dont have to obey Christ commandments to be saved, and another group saying, you must obey Christ commandments to be saved, and both be right. Logic demands that someone is in conflict with God and his word. Someone is teaching for doctrine the commandment of men.
I understand the reality of denominationalism in this world, and the fact that most religious groups accept, embrace, and celebrate it is by its self an example of the error we see in denominationalism. Even though I see the reality of it, it seems to me many are upset that we do not embrace it, or at the least, they think it wrong that the truth, of one church found in Christ, should be proclaimed.
If you and I and every one we know get it wrong, that will not change the truth that Jesus died for one church.
Truth does not change if I believe a lie with all my heart.
Truth does not change if the majority of the people believe a lie.
Truth does not change if the majority of religious groups believe a lie.
Truth does not change if my parents believe a lie.
Truth does not change if every one in the whole world believes a lie.
My goal is to be in that one church. To love the truth and so be saved. II Thes 2:9ff I refuse to follow the apostate down the road to separation from the Lords one church. Feel free to point out hypocrisy from among those who claim Christ. Since when did hypocrisy, yes even hypocrisy among those who have church of Christ on their building, change the truth of the Bible?
No its about truth and the authority of Christ. Not so much about who you can point to that disagrees or agrees. One church made up only of those who are subject to Christ, not made up of those who do it their own way.
Re: Is the church of Christ really non-denominational?
|June 15 2006, 11:02 AM |
I agree with much of what you wrote. However, the one point of continention I have is where you write "We cant have one group saying, 'you dont have to obey Christ commandments to be saved', and another group saying, 'you must obey Christ commandments to be saved'" To my knowledge there isn't a group even distantly related to the cofC that is saying you don't have to obey Christ commandments to be saved. I think every group believes they are pursuing Christ commandments as purely as possible but all make mistakes.
The problem I see with this site is how so much time is spent on what the other side is doing wrong, but little time is spent evaluating our own selves. I've been to conservative churches and sat through a "sermon" which basically consisted of what "Rubel" or "Max" is doing wrong when it was obvious they had never even read a book by the author but only repeating what others had said. All the while I was looking around and not seeing one visitor or even one convert that had not grown up at that church. I'm sure there exists stories from the other side of view. We liberals can be a condenscending bunch as well.
I found it quite ironic how on a recent post a regular to this site was saying how they couldn't fellowship a group that couldn't get right the appropriate day to worship, when in fact a Saturday night worship is more scriptural than a Sunday night worship considering the Jewish day started at sunset. But is the solution disfellowshipping those who believe the lie of having a Sunday night service?
I believe also that there is only one church. I am just not confident that a prerequisite for being a member of that one church is attending a church building on Sunday morning that has "church of Christ" on the outside. I grew up church of Christ and I expect to die church of Christ, but I don't think I can claim that the church of Christ is the keeper of all truths.
I admire your conviction to refuse to follow the apostate down the road to separation from the Lords one church. But I'm interested in exactly what is required to be an apostate? Stating that Jesus did not raise from the dead or that church needs to build a gym. My guess is that it is somewhere in between, but I'd be interested in seeing where that line is and your reasoning for it.
Personally, if someone loves the Lord their God with all their heart, soul, and mind, and loves their neighbor as themself yet doesn't necessarily infer that on Sunday morning they better not use instruments during worship, is it my place to say that they are not part of that one church? Don't get me wrong, I do believe that it is good to have a conversation and share our convictions, but is it possible that we can read the exact same scriptures and come to different conclusions? What if I conclude the wrong way? My hope, and if I understand I John correctly, my belief is that if we continue to walk in the light that my sins, even doctrinal sins, are continually washed away.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
Time Is Relative
|June 16 2006, 10:58 AM |
There seems to be a move on to "move" worship from Sunday AM to Saturday PM, or at least to emphasize Saturday PM worship over Sunday PM worship. Could this be a Seventh-Day Adventist overtone? The concept derives from the fact that each "day" in first-century Palestine spanned from sunset to sunset, with the further claim that since Sunday PM worship falls outside this time frame, it is therefore unscriptural. So if Christian worship should follow the Saturday PM time frame of the first century, it follows that it should match the time frame in ancient Palestine (now present-day Israel), for the "hour of worship" in that part of the world is the gold standard for worship. At least that's what some are really implying when they would change worship to Saturday PM, based on the first-century standard. Given that, then Christians in each time zone of the world would have to calculate when their time zone corresponded to Saturday PM in Israel. In doing so, Christians all over the world would then be worshiping at the same relative time, be that at midday or 3 AM, but it all would be based on the first-century standard of Saturday PM.
But I gather that by now, many are rolling their eyes and saying, "How ridiculous!" And it is.
The "day" in the Middle East may have been from sunset to sunset, but in the Western world, it spans from midnight to midnight. "Sunday" in the Middle East may have been from sunset on Saturday to sunset on Sunday, but in the West, "Sunday" runs from 12 midnight Sunday to 11:59.99 PM on Sunday. Time zones and when the days change determine when "Sunday" arrives. That is, all time is relative. Regarding Saturday PM as "Sunday" and worshiping thereon may be fine for the Middle East, but in the West, Saturday PM is still regarded as "Saturday PM," which is not yet Sunday.
In the West, Saturday PM worship does not correspond to worship on the first day of the week (Sunday). On the other hand, Sunday AM and PM worship still fall on the first day of the week.
|June 15 2006, 1:02 PM |
Thank you, I agree whole heartedly with that. So is it based on the individual? Very confusing. Is truth how each person determines what God is telling us in the Bible. I mean let's take the topic of supporting Orphanages. The church I grew up in supported them. My grandparents church didn't. Both Church of Christ, they just saw the truth in the scriptures different. Is it something you have in your heart? Like not going against your heart? What is the truth from one person to the next. I know there is a truth. God gave us the truth. But as an individual studying, can I see God's truth differently than another and it still be true. Starting to sound like a philosophy class. I am just throwing questions out. Why take anyone elses word for what the truth is other than what we believe in our personal studies that God is telling us. Is this a heart issue? Thanks for your time.
|June 15 2006, 1:09 PM |
I just want to say that was the most understandable and loving response I have EVER seen posted on this site. I reread it and I really see where you are coming from. I am still confused about a lot of things, but I see that the Church will never be divided, we will just seperate ourselves from it. Like sin, we will never as christians be divided from God, but sin can separate us from him. Again thank you for an understandable response and one that has a loving undertone.