A Member of the Body of Christ (no login) from IP address 205.188.116.8
There is something wrong, something very wrong. There needs to be a change, a big change.
There is this body, this body of believers. This body all believes in the same God. This body believes in the same Savior. Everyone in this body gains the same salvation. Everyone in this body receives the same grace. Everyone in this body is covered by the same blood. Everyone in this body is destined to go to the same place.
Yet, this body is divided, very divided. This body is full of people who think they are always right. This body is full of people that are concentrated on the wrong things. This body is full of people who try to tear each other apart instead of build each other up. This body is full of people that do not accept each other. This believed body of love and unity is sometimes a body of hatred and division.
Is not this body of unity supposed to love each other? Is not this body of unity supposed care for each other? Is not this body of unity supposed to accept each other and its differences? Is not this body of unity supposed to present the lost world with hope? How can this body successfully do these things when it is hurting itself with division and hatred?
WE, AS THE BODY OF CHRIST, ALL BELIEVE IN THE SAME GOD. WE ALL HAVE HOPE IN THE SAME SAVIOR. WE SOMETIMES HAVE DIFFERENT PREFERENCES, BUT WE ALL STILL LOVE OUR SAME GOD. WE NEED TO LAY ASIDE OUR PERSONAL PREFERENCES WHICH HAVE BEEN SHAPED AND MOLDED INTO RULES. BAPTIST, METHODIST, CHURCH OF CHRIST, PRESBYTIRIAN, NAZARENE, AND WHOEVEVER BELIEVES IN THE RISEN SAVIOR, WE ARE ALL A PART OF SAME BODY, THE BODY OF CHRIST. WE ARE BROTHERS, AND WE ARE SISTERS. WE ARE CHRISTIANS. WE ARE ALL GOING TO BE TOGETHER UNIFIED IN HEAVEN FOR ETERNITY. WE NEED TO LOVE EACH OTHER. WE NEED TO ACCEPT EACH OTHER. WE NEED TO CUT THE TENSION AND COME TOGETHER. WE NEED TO BE THE BODY OF CHRIST WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE.
"I am the way and the truth and the light. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 Jesus is the only way. Our demonation of church does not determine our salvation. Only our acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Lord. Jesus is the way. He is the truth. He is the light. We can be saved by nothing else.
Your article is atypical of the message that this website is trying to convey—which is basically to warn congregations of the dangers and risks involved when unnecessary and controversial changes are being enforced against the will of many of a church’s members. This website is opposed to ecumenism—which has never worked even among a number of religious groups who call for unity. There may be union in ecumenism, but union is not the same thing as unity. The Holy Scripture does not speak of any form of “union,” but it speaks a great deal about unity.
Your article contains valid points that we all can agree upon. But the question of achievability remains. The denominational world will never, never be united; in fact, denominationalism—which is by no means the kind of UNITY that the scriptures speak of—will continue to evoke more denominationalism.
At the same time, your set of questions further leads us to even more questions. For example, why would you expect the church of Christ to change its beliefs in order to join forces with the denominational world, and then NOT expect the denominations to change their doctrines and creeds to “unite” with us?
Well, I’m not trying to take anything away from a fruitful discussion that we should hope will ensue, but I simply would like to remind the readers that your plea for unity is not practical—it will not work unless and until all religious groups realistically can come to a scripture-based set of doctrines, beliefs and teachings.
I would like to ask you to present you proposition to your minister and to your elders, and let us know what they think—are they in partial/full agreement/disagreement with you?
We have the same beliefs. We all believe in Jesus Christ as our risen Savior. What we have that is different is our preferences. We CAN be unified. That doesn't mean we all have to have the same preferences. I attend a church of Christ. I know how it runs. We have our rules, our taboos. But we need to realize these are not rules. They are preferences. We can be unified.
I still would encourage you to show your original post to your minister and elders. If nothing else, please ask them if they agree with your premise, specifically the paragraph that’s bolded, listing a number of selected religious bodies. You may not consider this significant, but it is really significant. Why? Because if the elders in your church teach that the church of Christ can accept doctrines and teachings that even DIFFERING religious bodies cannot agree on, then, they are also wrong and have no business leading your church. There would be NO REASON whatsoever for the church of Christ to even exist. And they might as well serve as “elders” in any of these religious bodies—if they will let them.
We haven’t even started discussing beliefs, doctrines and teachings. But to make a blanket statement that “we have the same beliefs” is very troubling. Perhaps, there are no differences to you because the teaching-learning resources, materials and lessons in your “Bible” classes are derived from various religious faiths.
So, please, do me a favor. If your father has been/is an elder, he is one person to ask about your views on unity. Perhaps, there are other elders who know you personally and can, therefore, give you an honest answer.
There’s so much to discuss concerning “the body of Christ”—which is often misunderstood as it seems to be the case even as we speak.
Unfortunately, I can promise you that we are not disagreeing on "preferences" but over the REMOVAL of important scriptures that Jesus and the Apostles stated were imperative to our salvation, and the ADDITION of worldly behaviors that were condemned by Christ.
I applaud your love for people and your desire that all should be saved. However, reality must be noted and addressed. May I ask you something? Can you please explain how God's scriptural commands are now considered to be preferences? And these "rules" you so lightly dismiss are not man's rules, but God's commands. Am I to ignore his commands and now determine which of his "rules" I no longer need to obey so that I can get along with other religions?
Jesus himself stated these divisions would happen because of Satan and to NOT let our beliefs and traditions be changed by the world. He said he would NOT know us at judgement day if we didn't follow ALL of his Father's commands. He said full unity would not happen because man is sinful and lets his wants get in the way of his beliefs.
I hope you understand that under your unification process, we would throw out 99% of the Bible because we removed all "preferences" and "rules". HOWEVER, that one little verse in Revelation does bother me - something about adding or taking away from God's Word being detrimental to our salvation. Though I applaud you for caring and wanting all to be saved (I share that same wish/prayer), we must not let our desire for something that cannot be to override God's commands.
Jesus said it most clearly in Mat 7:14: "Because strait [is] the gate, and NARROW [is] the way, which leadeth unto LIFE, and FEW there be that FIND it."
I, too, gather that the anonymous poster would have not only the church of Christ, but all faiths, come to some kind of consensus about what to believe in Christianity. That is, in order for everyone to have peace and get along with each other, we would all draw up a list of those things on which all faiths could agree, and that would be our "doctrine." That would "unify" all faiths. That is also ecumenism. What is not said (but is implied nevertheless) is that those scriptural beliefs on which all faiths could not agree would be ignored or discarded for the sake of "unification." But it's already been pointed out that, although such a concept merely unifies us with each other, it is not the scriptural "unity in Christ." To have full unity in Christ, all people must be willing to yield completely to Christ, to follow His commands and the New Testament to the letter, veering neither to the left hand nor to the right, without regard for personal preferences.
Full unity in Christ will not happen as long as there is denominationalism. Full unity in Christ will not happen as long as people believe that there are multiple paths to Christ instead of the ONE PATH--THE OLD PATH--THE NARROW PATH--HIS WAY.
No, we’re making sure first that the initial post is talking about either apples or oranges.
The discussion has barely started. We haven’t yet clearly defined what comprises the body of Christ. To draw the conclusion beforehand that the body of Christ encompasses the denominations (even the “selected” ones as mentioned above) is certainly an opinion. And for you to agree with that conclusion is simply a statement of opinion from you.
The poster—and you have made it clear for us—is correct in pointing out that we lose our opinions. Unfortunately that “losing what” includes your opinion that denominationalism is an attribute or part of the nature of the church.
Identifying the church as a conglomerate of various religious bodies is unscriptural and contrary to how the New Testament ascribes to the one body of Christ (Eph. 4:4)—not hundreds of religious bodies. I Cor. 12:12 states—“For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.” Does it say that the one body has many denominations? No … no … no! Besides, the New Testament is clear about how an individual becomes a member of [or is added to—NOT JOIN] the church (Acts 2:37-38,41,47)
The church belongs to Christ—why “of Christ” and not of some human founder significantly designates its ownership. It is important to note that the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant churches did not exist in the apostolic age.
No Christian who knows the truth ever thinks that “our opinion is the REAL law.” You said that—not I.
Denominationalism equates diversity in doctrines and beliefs. Neither one is conducive to unity.
You have arrogance confused with confidence. The truth does not equivocate. Therefore, confidence in the truth does not equate arrogance. You might call it arrogance when you cannot argue with the truth or when the truth hurts you.
Unity in Christ will arrive when Christians are able once and for all to put their opinions and preferences aside and yield completely to the commands of Christ as set forth in the New Testament.
Unity in Christ encompasses ONE belief and ONE obedience, not multiple or diverse beliefs with some obeying some portions of the New Testament and others ignoring them.
Unity in Christ encompasses much more than just a bunch of congregations with divergent beliefs who agree to "believe in" Christ and otherwise do as they please. Anyone can give lip service and say they "believe in" Christ. The real test of unity is whether or not these "believers" are able to come together with one spiritual mind and commit themselves to following and obeying Christ and His Word in ALL THINGS whatsoever He commanded us (Matt. 28:20).
Yet when we advocate this complete scriptural unity in Christ, many object that we are merely stating our church of Christ opinions, that we are lifting up our preferences as divine principles.
If people coming together with one mind to submit totally to Christ is not "unity in Christ," if people coming together with one mind to obey Christ and His Word faithfully and completely is not "unity in Christ," then what else could "unity in Christ" possibly mean? Unity means one, not many. "Unity in diversity," that all-too-familiar adage of the Change Movement, is a misnomer, for where there is diversity of spiritual belief, there can be no unity of spiritual belief. That is really talking about apples and oranges or mixing oil with water.
It is an old view that when Israel sinned beyond redemption God ABANDONED them to the musical worship of the STARRY HOST (Acts 7) they requested.
The temple was a SYMBOLIC type: if you will notice the "body" or Holy Place has all of the symbols of the CHURCH: the seven "spirits" or knowledge or light, the table of fellowship and the incense altar. This for the "civilians" was the synagogue or "church in the wilderness" where loud instruments and 'making a joyful noise' was OUTLAWED. Just common sense and common decency: when you enter the SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE and Jesus is our teacher when we teach or preach "that which has been taught" no dummy needs to be told NOT to make "music."
The HEAD is where the thinking takes place and CHRIST is the HEAD of the body, the church.
Now, the body RESTS on two things: first one leg is the SACRIFICE and second is the laver of washing. Both the sacrifice and the priest had to be WASHED in order to enter into the Holy Place ot type of the church of Christ. That is why you must rest on the sacrifice of Christ and be WASHED and given A holy spirit. THEN, God adds you to the church of Christ or the Body of Christ.
Once you are in the BODY you can come boldly before the throne of Grace. The incense altar meaning our PRAYERS looked into the Most Holy Place where Christ the Holy Spirit meets US in the PLACE of our own spirit. The Word of God rested UNDER the mercy seat and that is why you cannot READ it until you are converted to Christ (2 Cor 3).
No musical mockers or singers could ENTER into the body of Christ or Church of Christ EVEN TO CLEAN OUT THE GARBAGE (see Hezekiah's reform). If a singer or musician ENTERED into even the carnal TYPE of the body of Christ he would be instantly killed by the "brethren."
When we as priests come to the incense altar to offer our own PRAYERS or fruit of the lips, there was a HALF HOURS SILENCE. That is why in Revelation they HOLD their harps and do not PLAY them.
That is why Simple Simon Sez in 101aaa --with all of the Bible and all recorded church history--that it is LUCIFER (Zoe) who lusts to get you all PLEASURED (outlawed by Paul in Romans 15 for the ekklesia) to keep you from GIVING HEED to the Word of Christ which is Paul's UNIQUE "worship" word. She is the holy whore in Revelation 18. All of the singers, musicians and "religious teknokrats" will go with her back into hell and John defined HER servants as SORCERERS who deceived the nations and that is why the CANDLES are removed by Jesus Christ. So, when you see these MARKS don't be silly and think that it is YOUR PREFERENCE which Trumps Jesus Christ: it is the sign that Jesus Christ has ALREADY abandoned you to worship the STARS just as he did to the musical idolaters at Mount Sinai.
Sorry. Dr. Crump. There will never be unity even among Churches of Christ as long as there are preachers among us who the very moment someone even tries to discuss some of our differences they jump in and condemn them for even trying. Anyone who tries is branded as a compromiser of the truth. The problem has always been on the inside.
We have nothing to fear from the demoninations, we will tear ourselves apart all by ourselves. The demoninations just sit back and laugh at us. AND IS IT ANY WONDER?????
I am sure you will have a great response and everyone will be told what a terrible false teacher I am.
Was Pippin implying that I was a preacher? Whatever, we need not "fear" the denominations; we just don't need to mimic them, as some church of Christ congregations are doing. Trying to win the approval of the denominations and the world by emulating them through worldly gimmicks and finding the "best" parts of Scripture on which we all can agree won't cut the mustard as far as obedience to Christ is concerned. It's an all or none situation. Neither should we be concerned about who "laughs" at us. People laughed at Christ, and the ungodly will always laugh at the faithful.
There are so many different "Christian faiths" with so many different interpretations, all of which have existed for decades and centuries, that it is logical to see that total unity (obedience to Christ and the New Testament in ALL THINGS whatsoever He has commanded us) is now virtually impossible. For complete and total "unity in Christ" by New Testament standards, all faiths would have to agree to give up their "traditions" and "preferences" and go strictly "by the book," the New Testament. But for many faiths, "rules and regulations," hence any type of authority, are just forms of "legalism." We also must remember that the New Testament did not predict a worldwide "unity in Christ" as the end of time approaches, but instead a falling away from the faith.
Nevertheless, as the new world order approaches, different faiths are going to attempt a "unity of compromise" with each other by skimming the Scriptures and taking that which is the least offensive and onerous to everyone, what is politically correct, what satisfies the "needs" of special interest groups, and write that up as their "doctrine." "Progressive" churches of Christ are not immune from such an approach.
Therefore, each church of Christ congregation must be willing to remain faithful to the Scriptures, to abstain from incorporating worldly, drawing-card gimmicks as the denominations do, to preach the whole Gospel, and to stay on the straight and narrow (albeit unpopular) path of Christ to salvation.
I am more than ready to totally agree with you. But what is still uncertain is how we can come about what you describe as “to have full unity in Christ, all people must be willing to yield completely to Christ, to follow His commands and the New Testament to the letter, veering neither to the left hand nor to the right, without regard for personal preferences”. If you were asked to make practical suggestions on how to achieve this “Scriptural unity of Christ” by "all people" on the grounds of some kind of doctrinal “harmonization”, what would it be?
Thank you!
we as stephens christian ministry kindly ask for prayers from your ministry and as well partnership
please do respond to this through our mail
yours in christ
PASTOR ERIC M OBURE FROM OGEMBO KENYA
How many man- or woman-founded religious bodies in “the body of Christ”?
April 29 2006, 5:39 PM
This is a compiled short list of denominations [so far only] from the Catholic [hmmm, surprised at their divisions?], Orthodox, Lutheran and Reformed Churches.
For those who call for unity with various denominations which claim to be “Christian,” which of these religious bodies would you consider being united with? If not all, which ones would you object to being united with the “body of Christ”?
Armenian Catholic Church
Byzantine Catholic Church
Chaldean Catholic Church
Coptic Catholic Church
Greek Catholic Church
Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
Latin Church
Maronite Catholic Church
Melkite Catholic Church
Ruthenian Catholic Church
Serbian Catholic Church
Syro-Malabar Catholic Church
Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
American Catholic Church in the United States
Ancient Apostolic Communion
Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church
Catholic Apostolic National Church
Catholic Apostolic Church
Catholic Apostolic Church in North America (CACINA)
Catholic Life Church
Celtic Catholic Church
Charismatic Episcopal Church
Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association
Christ Catholic Church
Free Catholic Church
Liberal Catholic Church
Mariavite Church
North American Old Catholic Church
Old Catholic Church
Palmarian Catholic Church
Philippine Independent Church
Polish National Catholic Church
Sedevacantism
True Catholic Church
Assyrian Church of the East
Armenian Apostolic Church
Coptic Orthodox Church
Eritrean Orthodox Church
Orthodox Church of Constantinople
Orthodox Church of Alexandria
Antiochian Orthodox Church
Orthodox Church of Jerusalem
Orthodox Church in America
Greek Old Calendarists
Macedonian Orthodox Church
Russian Old Believers
Western Orthodox Church in America (WOCA)
Utraquists (Hussites)
Taborites (Hussites)
Moravians (Hussites)
Unity of the Brethren (Hussites)
Lollards
Waldensians
American Association of Lutheran Churches (AALC)
Apostolic Lutheran Church of America
Association of Free Lutheran Congregations
Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America
Church of the Lutheran Confession
Concordia Lutheran Conference
Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference
All Saints Lutheran Church
Christ the King Lutheran
Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Church
Evangelical Lutheran Church "Concord"
Confessional Lutheran Church
Evangelical Lutheran Confessional Church
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church
Evangelical Lutheran Synod
Lutheran Confessional Church
Lutheran Evangelical Christian Church
Evangelical Catholic Church
International Lutheran Council
Christian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Evangelical Lutheran Church
Free Evangelical Lutheran Synod
Gutnius Lutheran Church
Independent Evangelical—Lutheran Church
Laestadian Lutheran Church
Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ - USA
Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Lutheran Ministerium and Synod - USA
Lutheran World Federation
Christian Lutheran Church
Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession
Evangelical Church of the Lutheran Confession
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Lutheran Church of Faith and Hope
United Evangelical Lutheran Church
Evangelical Covenant Church (Swedish Covenant)
Evangelical Free Church (E V Free)
Baptist General Conference (Swedish Baptist)
Congregational Federation of Australia
Canadian and American Reformed Churches
Christian Reformed Church in North America
Christian Reformed Churches
Church of Lippe
Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches
Dutch Reformed Church
Evangelical Reformed Church
Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches
Federation of Reformed Churches
Free Reformed Churches of North America
Heritage Reformed Congregations
Orthodox Christian Reformed Church
Protestant Reformed Churches in America
Reformed Christian Church
Reformed Church
Remonstrant Brotherhood
United Church of Christ
United Reformed Church
United Reformed Churches in North America
We haven’t even listed the other hundreds of denominations from the Presbyterian Churches, Mormons, Anabaptists, Brethren, Baptists, Charismatics, Friends (Quakers), Methodists, Holiness Churches, Pentecostalism, Oneness Pentecostalism, Neo-Charismatic Churches, Anglican/Episcopalian, Apostolic Churches, Sabbath-Keeping Christian Churches, etc.
Please let me know if we should continue with the list … in order to illustrate the salient point that the New Testament speaks of only one body of Christ.
No, I did not forget—it was intentional for the following reason:
I agree with you that the church for which Christ died is congregationally autonomous, non-denominational, the kingdom prophesied in the Old Testament, the kingdom spoken of in Matt. 16:18-19 (when Christ said to Peter, “I will build my church … and give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven”). Remember the fulfillment of the prophecy in Acts 1-2, when Peter preached in Jerusalem to those that heard and believed, “Repent and be baptized so that your sins will be forgiven (blotted out) and the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord” (Acts 2:37-38,41; Acts 3:19)?
If you do remember the passages, then the prophesied kingdom or church established by Christ in Jerusalem is the true church that belongs to its founder.
Do you see now why Christ’s church was not included in that list of denominational or religious bodies founded by men and women?
Did you miss the last statement in my previous post when I said “… in order to illustrate the salient point that the New Testament speaks of only one body of Christ”?
What about all of the different types of Churches of Christ?
One cuppers
No Sunday School
Non cooperative
Mainstream
plus many more too numerous to mention
Which of them is the Church Jesus Died for and which are man made? The only type of church that matters are the ones that Jesus includes. It is not up to us to make that decision for Him.
Which “type of congregation” among churches of Christ (Rom. 16:16) are you a member of?
One cuppers—A few congregations may not be that concerned about health issues. If the members of a congregation are of “the same mind and of the same judgment” in this regard, I do not see it as a problem. Besides, multiple cups or one cup is not a spiritual issue at all—unlike as when a Catholic priest is the only one who drinks “all of it.” It’s not surprising that the change agents would use this as an example to justify their faulty assumption that there is “unity in diversity.” That’s hardly the case here because the use of one cup or multiple cups does not alter the command for Christians to commemorate Christ’s sacrifice and death on the cross.
No Sunday School—This type of congregation of the Lord’s church is correct in believing that the gathering of the saints, after all, is all about commemorating the Lord’s death and studying God’s word as a school of the Bible on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7)—and there’s already your “Sunday School” in that gathering or assembly.
The body of Christ still belongs to Christ when it follows His and the apostles’ teachings and is not ashamed to bear the name of its founder—whether or not it assembles in a non-air-conditioned building, in a home or in a gymnasium; whether or not members have been baptized in the lake, in a Presbyterian church building or in the river; etc.
1. These other groups would not have anything to do with you, Since you do not agree with them. While clearly you have no problem with accepting there different beliefs.
2. The argument against Sunday schools went something like: We do not want to be like the Baptist down the street. These people do not believe that Sunday schools are Biblical and they think that those who started having them are wrong. And while they probably did not use the term, the ones who brought them in were Change Agents and trouble makers in their minds.
I think that it is sad that a group of believers who profess to only follow the Word and essentially started as a group to bring unity to all believers by going back to the Bible has itself disintegrated into many many different groups most of which have nothing to do with each other. And many (thank goodness not all) feel that they are the only ones going to heaven.
I think is the foundation of all false dogma. You probably forgot that the church of Christ identified itself as a SCHOOL OF CHRIST as the ekklesia or synagogue is a school of the Bible. T. Campbell identified worship as reading and musing the Word. Church WAS uniquely Sunday School open for all.
You also forgot that the modern Sunday School movement had begun and was taken up by Standard publishing intended that ALL churches buy material from them. The only AUTHORIZED song book for ALL churches must be the Standard version which they somehow pried loose from Alexander Campbell.
The Sunday School Board was NOT under the oversight of the elders. Therefore the ANTI Sunday school people did not STOP doing something or refuse to BEGIN something: they kept on doing what they had always done. It is too bad that the Sunday School Department got stolen by the women who TRY to have 12the graders doing cut out and paste ups. They tried to force my daughter to teach some vapid disjointed material on the Old Testament with cutesy cutsey stuff with a PIG as the central character.
So, did the Sunnday School system produce the epidemic of effeminate preachers and MUSICIANS or what? Could you prove that your kids know more than those who don't have the DIVIDED CLASS system? You probably can't find people who reject teaching the BIBLE: they just don't do it your way. Would you INFILTRATE and steal a happy congregation getting adult level education and drinking out of one cup just to make the MODERN?
Don't doing something because the BAPTISTS did it before is wacko, Jacko: people just make it up.
One cup or one assembly—the church will always exist
May 4 2006, 4:57 AM
William,
Honestly, I do not have any problem with my comments. Neither should anyone who believes or is convinced that the church established by Christ at Pentecost belongs to him. His church is not a denomination from what I know is revealed in the New Testament.
As I have already mentioned, the observance of the Lord’s Supper is the command—which is not violated or altered by the unspecified use of one cup, a pitcher, clear or colored multiple cups, etc. If I were to be in assembly with the “one cuppers,” I would simply oblige—and forget about my own “health hazard” mentality. If these brethren have a fellowship issue, then, that is between them and God—but it certainly does not preclude the church from its existence. Again, this is NOT a doctrinal issue—it is not a “different beliefs” kind of thing because the Lord’s sacrifice and death is still commemorated as commanded.
In regard to the “Sunday School” issue, we must realize that it is not addressed in the New Testament. Neither is the “worship service.” Now, “assembling of ourselves together” or the “assembly” is referenced—an indication that exhortation or teaching or admonishing one another is the purpose. That gathering clearly suggests that it is a Bible school in itself, regardless of whether or not some nearby church does it. “No Sunday School” or “Sunday School” only on Sunday limits the study of the Bible. Acts 17:10-11 encourages Christians to search the scriptures DAILY as the Bereans did in the first century.
Again, it is a faulty assumption that because there are dissenting members or congregations … that the church of our Lord does not or should not exist. I feel that most of the congregations of “the group” you were alluding to are united because of the common agreement on the doctrine of salvation in the blood of the Lamb offered to mankind through God’s love, grace and mercy. “They are the only ones going to heaven”? Who says and believes that? Or, is that only an accusation by the antagonists?
RE: How many man- or woman-founded religious bodies in “the body of Christ”?
November 8 2006, 12:36 PM
Dear Donnie,
Please, if you can, send me “the list” or post it as a reply to this request. I would be more than glad if you can also include references (Books, journals, websites…).
Thank you in advance!
Which of the many man- or woman-founded religious bodies… [Continued]
May 6 2006, 12:33 PM
In the previous list of denominations, we included the divisions among the Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran and Reformed Churches.
The following additional list of denominations [so far only] includes religious divisions from the Presbyterian, Mormon, Anabaptist, Brethren and Baptist Churches.
For those who call for unity with various denominations which claim to be “Christian,” which of these religious bodies would you consider being united with? If not all, which ones would you object to being united with the “body of Christ”?
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Bible Presbyterian Church
Church of Scotland
Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches
Cumberland Presbyterian Church
Evangelical Presbyterian Church
First Presbyterian Church
Free Church of Scotland
Free Church of Scotland Continuing
Free Presbyterian Church
Korean Presbyterian Church in America
Orthodox Presbyterian Church
Presbyterian Church in America
Presbyterian Church USA
Presbyterian Reformed Church
Reformed Presbyterian Church
Reformed Presbyterian Church - Covenanted
Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America
Reformed Presbytery in North America
United Free Church of Scotland
Uniting Presbyterian Church in Southern Africa
Westminster Presbyterian Church
China Christian Council
Church of Bangladesh
Church of Pakistan
Church of North India
Syrian Marthoma Church in India
Church of South India
Evangelical Church in Germany
Protestant Church in the Netherlands from 1 May 2004
United Church of Canada
United Church of Christ
Uniting Church in Australia
United Church in Papua New Guinea and the Solomon Islands
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons)
Beachy Amish
Nebraska Amish
Old Order Amish
Swartzendruber Amish
Bruderhof Communities
Alliance of Mennonite Evangelical Congregations
Anabaptist Association of Australia and New Zealand
Brethren in Christ
Chortitzer Mennonite Conference
Church of God in Christ, Mennonite (aka Holdeman Mennonites)
Conservative Mennonite Conference
Evangelical Mennonite Church
Evangelical Mennonite Conference
Evangelical Mennonite Mission Conference
Fellowship of Evangelical Bible Churches (formerly Evangelical Mennonite Brethren)
Canadian Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches
Japan Mennonite Brethren Conference
US Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches
Mennonite Church USA
Mennonite World Conference
Swiss Mennonite Conference
Church of the United Brethren in Christ
Plymouth Brethren
River Brethren
Brethren in Christ Church
Old Order River Brethren
United Zion Church
Schwarzenau Brethren
Church of the Brethren
Conservative Grace Brethren Churches, International
Dunkard Brethren
Ephrata Cloister
Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches
Old German Baptist Brethren
Old Order German Baptist Brethren
The Brethren Church (Ashland Brethren)
Social Brethren
[NOTE: This is not an attempt to single out the Baptist Churches by identifying individual countries. According to sources: “All Baptist associations are congregationalist affiliations for the purpose of cooperation, in which each local church is governmentally independent.”]
Alliance of Baptists
American Baptist Association
American Baptist Churches USA
Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland
Association of Grace Baptist Churches
Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
Association of Regular Baptist Churches
Baptist Bible Fellowship International
Baptist Conference of the Philippines
Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec
Baptist Convention of Western Cuba
Baptist General Conference
Baptist General Conference of Canada
Baptist General Convention of Texas
Baptist Missionary Association of America
Baptist Union of Australia
Baptist Union of Great Britain
Baptist Union of New Zealand
Baptist Union of Scotland
Baptist Union of Western Canada
Baptist World Alliance
Bible Baptist
Canadian Baptist Ministries
Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists
Central Baptist Association
Central Canada Baptist Conference
Christian Unity Baptist Association
Colored Primitive Baptists
Conservative Baptist Association
Conservative Baptist Association of America
Conservative Baptists
Continental Baptist Churches
Convención Nacional Bautista de Mexico
Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches
Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
European Baptist Convention
European Baptist Federation
Evangelical Baptist Mission of South Haiti
Evangelical Free Baptist Church
Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada
Free Will Baptist Church
Fundamental Baptist Fellowship of America
General Association of Baptists
General Association of General Baptists
General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
General Six-Principle Baptists
Global Independent Baptist Fellowship
Grace Baptist Assembly
Independent Baptists
Independent Baptist Church of America
Independent Baptist Fellowship International
Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America
Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist Association
Landmark Baptist Church
Liberty Baptist Fellowship
Myanmar Baptist Convention
National Baptist Convention of America, Inc.
National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.
National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A.
National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
New England Evangelical Baptist Fellowship
New Testament Association of Independent Baptist Churches
North American Baptist Conference
Norwegian Baptist Union
Old Baptist Union
Old Regular Baptists
Old Time Missionary Baptists
Primitive Baptists
Progressive Baptists
Progressive National Baptist Convention
Reformed Baptists
Regular Baptist Churches, General Association of
Regular Baptists
Separate Baptists
Separate Baptists in Christ
Seventh Day Baptists
Southeast Conservative Baptists
Southern Baptist Convention
Southern Baptists of Texas
Sovereign Grace Baptists
Strict Baptists
Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
Union D'Eglises Baptistes Francaises Au Canada
United American Free Will Baptist Church
United American Free Will Baptist Conference
United Baptist Convention of the Atlantic Provinces
United Baptists
United Free Will Baptist
Unregistered Baptist Fellowship
World Baptist Alliance
World Baptist Fellowship
[To be continued…]
There are still the following major religious denominations and their divisions not yet listed:
Charismatics
Friends (Quakers) and Their Offshoots
Methodists
Pietists and Holiness Churches
Pentecostalism
Oneness Pentecostalism
Neo-charismatic churches
Other movement churches
Anglican/Episcopal Church
Sabbath Keeping Christian Churches
Again, which one or ones of these would the change agents unite with the “body of Christ.” Conversely, and better yet, based on the desires and goals of the change agents to disband the body of Christ in order to achieve “unity” [from their perspectives, i.e.], which one (or ones) of the above should Christ’s church unite with? The biggest question is HOW can Christ’s church in unity with another religious body or other religious bodies be ACHIEVED? Should it be a selective process (as in, which denominations are desirable)? Is it achievable? Is it insane?
Which of the many man- or woman-founded religious bodies… [Continued]
May 13 2006, 8:27 PM
LIST NO. 3:
In the other preceding lists of denominations, we included the divisions among the Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Reformed, Presbyterian, Brethren, and Baptist Churches.
This third list includes the Methodist, Anglican/Episcopalian, Seventh-Day Adventist Churches.
Also listed are from these groups: Charismatic, Holiness, Pentecostal, Oneness Pentecostal, Neo-Charismatic Churches which have a combined worldwide membership larger than any of the Protestant Churches.
Ready?
African Methodist Episcopal Church
African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
Bible Methodist Church
Christian Methodist Episcopal Church
Congregational Methodist Church
Church of the Nazarene
Evangelical Church
Evangelical Methodist Church
Free Methodist Church
Fellowship of Independent Methodist Churches
Fundamental Methodist Conference, Inc.
Independent Methodist Church
Iglesia Metodista de México, Sitio Oficial
Primitive Methodist Church
Salvation Army
United Methodist Church
Wesleyan Church
Wesleyan Reform Union
Anglican Communion
Church in Wales
Church of England
Church of Ireland
Church of the Province of ______________
Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East
Episcopal Church in the United States of America
Episcopal Church of _______________
Iglesia Anglicana de la Region Central America
Iglesia Anglicana del Cono Sud de las Americas
Igreja Episcopal Anglicana do Brasil
Kerala Christian Assembly (Canada) [1]
Lusitanian Church of Portugal
Philippine Episcopal Church
Scottish Episcopal Church
Spanish Reformed Episcopal Church
Independent Anglican Churches
Continuing Anglican Movement Churches
African Orthodox Church
African Anglican Orthodox Church Worldwide
American Anglican Church
Anglican Catholic Church
Anglican Church in America
Anglican Church International Communion
Anglican Mission in America
Anglican Orthodox Church
Anglican Province of America
Anglican Province of Christ the King
Christian Episcopal Church
Church of England (Continuing)
Church of England in South Africa
Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches
Episcopal Missionary Church
Free Church of England
Free Protestant Episcopal Church
Reformed Episcopal Church
Southern Episcopal Church
United Episcopal Church
Catholic Apostolic Church
Restored Apostolic Mission Church
New Apostolic Church
United Apostolic Church
General Church of the New Jerusalem
The Lord's New Church which is Nova Hierosolyma
General Conference of the New Church (England)
Swedenborgian Church of North America formerly General Convention of the New Jerusalem (USA)
The New Church in Australia
The Faith Mission
Friends (Quakers) and Their Offshoots
Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)
Friends General Conference
Friends United Meeting
Evangelical Friends International
United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing (Shakers)
Messianic Judaism
Chosen People Ministries
Jews for Jesus
Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations
The Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA), founded in 1915, is the largest association of Messianic Jews in the world
Messianic Bureau International (MBI)
Sabbath Keeping Christian Churches
— Sunday Adventists
Advent Christian Church
Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith)
Church of the Blessed Hope (aka Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith)
Primitive Advent Christian Church
— Seventh Day Adventists
Branch Davidians
Branch Seventh Day Adventists
Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church
Davidian Seventh-Day Adventist Association
General Association of Davidian Seventh-Day Adventists
People's Christian Church
Seventh-Day Adventist Church
Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement
International Missionary Society of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church Reform Movement
Sabbath Rest Advent Church
Promise Adventist Church - Brazilian Pentecostal Adventists
The Registry
— Sabbath Keeping Churches, Non Adventist
Assembly of God in Christ Jesus
Associated Churches, Inc.
Associates for Scriptural Knowledge
Biblical Church of God
Body of Christ Church of God
Church of God (Anadarko)
Church of God (Jesus Christ the Head) (UNICO)
Church of God (O'Brien)
Church of God (Philadelphia Era)
Church of God (Sabbatarian)
Church of God (Seventh Day, Salem, West Virginia)
Church of God Evangelical Association
Church of God's Truth
Church of the Great God
Congregation of God, Seventh Day
Congregation of God
Congregation of Yah
Foundation for Biblical Research
Foundation of Life Fellowship
General Conference of the Church of God (Seventh-Day)
General Council of the Churches of God
Global Church of God
Harmony of Life Fellowship
International Church of God (ICG)
Philadelphia Church of God
Restoration Church of God
Seventh-Day Church of God
The Eternal Church of God
The Pure Truth
Triumph Prophetic Ministries (Church of God)
Twentieth Century Church of God (Pennsylvania)
Twentieth Century Church of God
United Biblical Church of God
United Church of God
United Seventh-Day Brethren
Universal Church of God
World Insight International
Worldwide Church of God
— Bible Student Groups
Back to the Bible Way
Christian Believers Conference
Christian Bible Students Association
Christian Millenial Fellowship
Christian Prophets of Jehovah
Dawn Bible Students Association
Epiphany Bible Students Association
Independent Bible Students
Laodicean Home Missionary Movement
Layman's Home Missionary Movement
Lord Our Righteousness (Life Support)
Pastoral Bible Institute
Philanthropic Assembly
— Sacred Name Groups
Assemblies of YHWHHOSHUA
Assemblies of Yah
Assemblies of Yahvah
Assembly of Yahweh (Easton Rapids, MI)
Assemblies of Yahweh (Bethel, PA)
Assemblies of the Called Out Ones of Yah
Bible Study Association
Church of God (Jerusalem)
House of Yahweh (Abilene, Texas)
House of Yahweh (Odessa, Texas)
Missionary Dispensary Bible Research
New Life Fellowship
Scripture Research Association
Workers Together with Elohim
Yahweh's Assembly of Messiah
— Anglo-Israelism
Anglo-Saxon Federation of America
British-Israel-World Federation (Canada), Inc.
Calvary Fellowship, Inc.
Christian Conservative Churches of America
Church of Jesus Christ-Christian (Aryan Nations)
Kingdom Identity Ministries
LaPorte Church of Christ
Christian Research
Church of Israel
Covenant, the Sword and the Arm of the Lord
Evangelical Church of Christ / Commonwealth Covenant Church (New Zealand)
House of Prayer for All People
Ministry of Christ Church
National Association of Kingdom Evangelicals
New Christian Crusade Church
Prophetic Herald Ministry
Remnant of Israel
Tabernacle of the Phineas Priesthood
Christian Israelite Church
Israelite House of David
Israelite House of David as Reorganized by Mary Purnell
Yahweh's New Covenant Assembly
Church of the East and Abroad
— Other Adventists
Christadelphians
Christian Nations - Eagle Warriors
Church of God (Reinersten)
Kingdom of God on Earth Within Man
Remnant Church
Restored Israel of Yahweh
Shiloh True Light Church of Christ
Star of Truth Foundation
True Church
church of god world mission society
Gnosticism, Nontrinitarian, New Thought, Christian mystery religion
Ecclesia Gnostica
Bogomils (extinct)
Borborites (extinct)
Carpocratians (extinct)
Cathars (extinct)
Manichaeism (extinct)
American Unitarian Conference
Branhamism
Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith
Doukhobors
Christadelphians
Home Ecclesia Association
Iglesia ni Cristo
Magi Network
Makuya
Molokan
Unification Church
Unitarian Christian Association
Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship
United Pentecostal Church International
Christian anarchism
Divine Science
Religious Science
Unity Church
Esoteric Christianity
The Rosicrucian Fellowship
Spiritism (regarded as an auxiliary doctrine)
Charismatics, Pietists and Holiness Churches, Pentecostalism, Oneness Pentecostalism, Neo-charismatic churches, Other movement churches
New Frontiers
Vineyard Movement
Sovereign Grace Ministries
Charismatic Episcopal Church
Full Gospel
Apostolic Christian Church
Bible Fellowship Church
Christian & Missionary Alliance
Christian's Missionary Church
Church of Christ (Holiness) U.S.A.
Church of God (Anderson)
Church of God (Guthrie, Oklahoma)
Church of God (Holiness)
Churches of God General Conference (Winebrenner)
Church of the Nazarene
Evangelical Covenant Church
Missionary Church
United Christian Church
Abundant Life Worship Centers
Apostolic Assemblies of Christ
Apostolic Church of Pentecost of Canada
Apostolic Faith Church
Assemblies of God
Assembly of Pentecostal Churches of Jesus Christ
Calvary Holiness Association
Charismatic Episcopal Church
Christian City Churches
Christ Gospel Churches International
Christian Church of North America
Christian Congregation of Brazil
Christian Outreach Centre
Christian Revival Crusade
Church of God (Charleston, Tennessee)
Church of God (Chattanooga)
Church of God (Cleveland)
Church of God (Huntsville, Alabama)
Church of God (Jerusalem Acres)
Church of God for All Nations
Church of God by Faith
Church of God, House of Prayer
Church of God in Christ
Church of God Mountain Assembly
Church of God of Prophecy
Church of God with Signs Following
Church of God of the Union Assembly
Church of the Little Children of Jesus Christ
Congregational Holiness Church
CRC Churches International
Destiny Church
Elim Fellowship
Elim Pentecostal Church
Fire Baptized Holiness Church of God of the Americas
God is Love Pentecostal Church
Holiness Baptist Association
Independent Assemblies of God, International
International Church of the Foursquare Gospel
International Pentecostal Church of Christ
International Pentecostal Holiness Church
Ministers Fellowship International
New Life Churches
Open Bible Standard Churches (association of autonomous churches)
Pentecostal Mission
Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada
Pentecostal Assemblies of Newfoundland
Pentecostal Church of God
Pentecostal Free Will Baptist Church
Pentecostal/Charismatic Churches of North America
Pentecostal Churches of the Apostolic Faith
Pentecostal World Conference
Redeemed Christian Church of God
The Church of God (Jerusalem Acres)
The Church of God for All Nations
The Fellowship (FGFCMI)
United Gospel Tabernacles
United Holy Church of America
United Pentecostal Churches of Christ
Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Christ Jesus
Apostolic Brethren
Apostolic Church of the Faith in Jesus Christ
Apostolic Overcoming Holy Church of God
Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ
Bible Way Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ
Church of Jesus Christ of Prophecy
Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith
International Church of Jesus Christ
Pentecostal Assemblies of the World
Potter's House Christian Fellowship
United Pentecostal Church
Kimbanguist Church
The Church of the Lord (Aladura)
Zion Christian Church
True Jesus Church,
Church Assembly Hall
New Birth Movement
Montagnard Evangelical Church
Bible Christian Mission
Filadelfia Fellowship
New Life Fellowship
New Life Outreach
Reaching Indians Ministries
Believers' Churches in India
Rajasthan Bible Institute
Calvary Chapel
Church of Christ, Instrumental (aka Kelleyites)
Children of God
Christian City Church (aka "CCC" or "C3i")
City Harvest Church
Evangelical Covenant Church of America ("Swedish Evangelical Mission Covenant")
Evangelical Free Church of America
Grace Movement Churches
Hope Church Singapore
Fellowship of Fundamental Bible Churches
Great Commission Association
Indian Shakers
New Frontiers (formerly New Frontiers International)
Metropolitan Community Churches
Schwenkfelder Church
Two by Two (aka The Truth, The Way) and its offshoot Cooneyites
Vineyard Movement
Charismatic Episcopal Church
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Church of Christ, Scientist
Jehovah's Witnesses
New Age: The Christian Community
Restoration Movement:
Disciples of Christ
Christian Church
Churches of Christ
International Churches of Christ (Boston Movement)
Although churches of Christ are included in the list above [as the “religious world” thinks that it is a religious body, just another denomination], contrary to the apostates and change agents’ suggestion that the church of Christ is divided—and is, therefore, not any different from others—it is noteworthy that statistical data “out there” does NOT separately list “one cuppers” from “no Sunday School” congregations, etc. We must acknowledge the significance of it all.
Do you see why the proponents of the Change Movement among churches of Christ would have you convinced that ecumenism is the way to go—i.e., churches of Christ should just openly fellowship with others regardless of doctrine? How absurd and impractical!
The change agents who conveniently call for unity with various denominations which claim to be “Christian” would not be able to respond to the big questions—which of these religious bodies would you consider the church of Christ being united with?
If the response is “with all of the above,” then, it ain’t gonna happen.
If the response is “NOT with all of the above”—which means being “selective”—which ones would the change agents object to being united with the “body of Christ”? And how would they determine the methodology for choosing? Ecumenism among selected churches has been attempted many times before. It has NEVER worked.
Isn’t it about time for the change movers to leave the church alone? Otherwise, the change agents—those who sow discord in the brotherhood—should start their own from scratch.
I didn’t bother to count the number of divided religious bodies listed above, even though several denominations identified with their localities (country, province, regions, continent, etc.) have already been removed.
Would someone care to count the number of religions from the three (3) sets of unordered list of churches, and post the total below?
“A TIME TO UNITE, A TIME TO SEPARATE” (by John Waddey)
May 21 2006, 9:44 AM
A TIME TO UNITE, A TIME TO SEPARATE
Solomon reminds us there is time for everything (Eccle. 3:1). These verses are not only appropriate for weddings and funeral, but also for situations such as presently confront our brotherhood.
Without doubt heaven's wish is that all Christians stand united in Christ (John 17:21). When we have a common salvation, a common faith and a common goal, we must strive to maintain that unity (Eph. 4:3).
It is certainly to our benefit to be united as a people. A united church is stronger and more effective than a divided church. United we can devote our full time and energy to productive and constructive work for the Master. Standing together we mute many of the accusations of the Evil One.
Given all the above, the fact is there are times and situations that demand separation.
We cannot be united with folks who themselves are not united with Christ. We are united with Christ when immersed with him in the likeness of his death (Rom. 6:3-5).
We cannot be united with those who walk disorderly and not according to the apostolic traditions (II Thess. 3:6).
We cannot be united with those who cause divisions and occasions of stumbling contrary to the doctrine which we have learned from the apostles of Christ. In fact we are instructed to turn away from them (Rom. 16:17).
We cannot be united with those are living ungodly lives. Paul specifically says, "Put away the wicked man from among yourselves" (I Cor. 5:13).
We cannot be united with those of our brethren who go onward and abide not in the teaching of Christ. To do so is to partake in their evil works (II John 9-11).
We cannot be united with those whose approach to worship and the message of Christ is patently contrary to what we know to be God's Truth. Amos asked, "Shall two walk together, unless they have agreed?" (Amos 3:3).
We cannot continue in unity and fellowship with those whose false teaching is like leaven that is threatening to corrupt the whole body of Christ. Paul says to purge out the old leaven (I Cor. 5:6-7).
We cannot be united with those who are working to destroy the very church to which we have been added (Acts 2:47); for which we have labored and sacrificed; which we believe to be Christ's sacred body and kingdom on earth. To be united and on cordial terms with the enemies of the church of Christ is to be unfaithful to Christ the head of the church.
All of this should come as no surprise to those who know God's Word. Jesus himself said He came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother (Matt. 10:34). The meaning being that loyalty to him and his will must take precedence over that to family and relatives. One becomes a Christian, the other does not. One is faithful to Christ the other is unfaithful. Such situations will always cause separations and division. We should be ready and eager to have unity and fellowship with any man or woman who is obedient to the teaching of Christ. But when a man or a school or a congregation sets about to change the doctrine and the worship ordained by Christ, to change the very nature of Christ's church, then our loyalty to our Savior and King demands that we follow him even if it means leaving the others behind.
One of Satan's deceptive tricks is to press the faithful Christian to continue in fellowship with flagrant error to preserve unity. We must not fall for that deception. Those who compromise with error are often swallowed up by the error.
It is obvious that many brethren live such insulated lives that they do not know what is transpiring in our far-flung brotherhood. Some have heard rumors about certain preachers, congregations or schools abandoning the ancient faith. The following quotes from a Bro. GH, a vocal change agent, will help folks see the danger confronting us:
“The church of the 60’s and 70’s is irrelevant to today’s world. What most ‘change advocates’ want to change is not the gospel, but HOW we do what we do.”
“Jesus was many things including a change agent. The prophets were change agents. Such people are always demonized by the protectors of the status quo, then killed by the protectors of the status quo.”
“I teach people that baptism is part of their obedience to God, but I would accept a person into fellowship who claimed ‘Jesus as Lord’ even if he/she had not been immersed. My job is to accept those who claim Jesus and are not open and obviously a threat to the flock. I’ll let God ‘sort it all out.’”
“… if I teach that a woman may instruct a class of men and women, does that mean I am a ‘false teacher’ who should not be fellowshiped?”
“Am I not in Jesus just as you?”
“You refer to our historical record as a church. You are right to do so, for that history allows a clear view of a corpse that once was a church that was tolerant and open.”
“Unity is more important than the instrument.”
Can you imagine the spiritual state of the church where Bro. GH preaches? Sad, sad!
“I teach people that baptism is part of their obedience to God, but I would accept a person into fellowship who claimed ‘Jesus as Lord’ even if he/she had not been immersed. My job is to accept those who claim Jesus and are not open and obviously a threat to the flock. I’ll let God ‘sort it all out.’”
Interesting thought from Mr. GH. I wonder if he believes that man is forgiven of his sins, by God, when he is baptized (immersed) into Christ. If so, is he content to allow this person to be lost, to spend eternity in hell because their sins were not forgiven? It seems a high price to pay in order to “keep the peace”, and all for the sake of unity in the “the flock”. Especially a high price for the one who is going to hell.
Now, Is baptism required for obedience to God? It seems Mr. GH believes so. And, if so, this hypothetical person who claims to ”know Jesus” but does not obey Him would clearly be a liar. I John 2:4 The only other option is that baptism is not in fact required for obedience, and for the forgiveness of sin, and that may very well be the true doctrinal goal behind many of those that want to accept every one that claims Jesus.
He may view his job as accepting those who “claim Jesus” regardless of their obedience to Him, but the Bible tells us not to judge. (Judge falsely) We would do well to remember that false judgment is not only condemning the innocent but also releasing the guilty.
All of this talk of unity. What about the lost? There is more at stake here then “why can’t we all just get along”. There are souls! Are we willing to send them down the river in order to have a group hug?
-----Original Message----- From: fortify_your_faith@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 1:20 PM To: fortify_your_faith@yahoogroups.com Subject: [fortify your faith] A Lesson to Fortify Your Faith
Dear Fellow Christian: I urge you to take time to read the lesson below. It speaks to serious challenges facing the church of our generation. If you find it helpful and above all, biblical, I hope you will forward it to other Christians in your email address book.
By cooperating together we can have a positive, constructive influence on our fellow Christians.
John Waddey
__________________________________
PIERCING QUESTIONS ON UNITY
It is the desire of God that disciples of Christ be united in the bond of peace (Eph. 4:3). We are expected to work to that end! A great deal is spoken and written about unity and the sin of division , but the careful student soon discovers that there are other dimensions to the subject that are also important.
Paul asked the Corinthian brethren several pointed questions about unity and fellowship:
"What fellowship hath righteousness and iniquity?"
"What communion hath light with darkness?"
"What concord hath Christ with Belial?"
"What portion hath a believer with an unbeliever?" (II Cor. 6:14-16)
The obvious answer to all of these questions is none. This should prompt us to pause and consider our own situation.
It sometimes happens that people end up in the fellowship of the church who by their conduct or teaching make themselves unworthy of the privilege. Sinful conduct or dangerous false teachings are as darkness when compared to Christ and his standards. Disruptive disciples or teachers of destructive heresies advance the cause of Belial rather than that of the Son of God. In our day it is not uncommon for skeptics and unbelievers to infiltrate the church. Some lose their faith along the way, most often while pursuing higher education! Yet they persist in staying within the church. Especially is this true of preachers who have lost their faith. It is naive to think such can never happen in our brotherhood. Just look at the rank unbelief that has captured many Protestant bodies and especially the Disciples of Christ who once were part of us. What union can the faithful believer in God, Christ and the Bible have with those who no longer believe in them?
The fact is, unity is an ideal, a goal toward which we all must strive. The reality is, there have always been and will always be those wanting to operate among us with whom we cannot have brotherly fellowship. We are ordered to mark them that cause divisions and occasions of stumbling contrary to the doctrine we receive and turn away from them! The reason being, "they serve not the Lord Christ, but their own bellies" (Rom. 16:18).
There are those who teach another gospel. In so doing they make themselves anathema from God, i.e., cut off and rejected (Gal. 1: 9). How can we have unity and loving fellowship with such people?
There are some who are lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof: from these also turn away" (II Tim. 3:5). How can we enjoy fellowship with such disciples?
Those teachers who abide not in the teaching of Christ are not in fellowship with either the Father or the Son (II John 9). It is no wonder that the apostle wrote, Give him no greeting and receive him not into your house "for he that giveth him greeting partaketh in his evil works" (II John 10-11). Here again is a clear case where we are to withhold fellowship from a person or persons who claim to be members of Christ's church but are not faithful servants!
Paul did not hesitate to withhold his fellowship from Hymenaeus and Alexander who had made shipwreck concerning the faith (I Tim. 2:19-20). He delivered them unto Satan, i.e., he withdrew his fellowship from them (Comp. I Cor. 5:5).
Surely Christians should ever be seekers of and workers for unity with all other fellow-Christians (Eph. 4:3). We must never be guilty of conduct or teaching that would cause division in the body of Christ that is contrary to his teaching. But to be true to the Master, there will be times that faithfulness demands that we withhold our fellowship from disorderly or divisive disciples. It is yet another of Satan's deceptive lies when a man teaches us to pursue fellowship with those who are not obedient children of God!
John Waddey
__________________________________
Permission is given to copy and distribute all lessons in this weekly series.
Books by John Waddey: Surviving the Storms of Change ($18); Books About the Change Movement: Reviews and Recommendations ($16); Sacred Principles on Which We Stand ($11.75). Make checks to church of Christ and send to John Waddey, 12630 W. Foxfire Dr. Sun City West, AZ 85375
Is the church of Christ really non-denominational?
June 13 2006, 6:20 PM
I used to think that the church of Christ was a non-denominational church, but I was wrong. I find that the church is really more divided than anyone in the church would like to admit. In fact there are so many shades of the church of Christ that I think anyone who went from church to church would find that each one is different the the other.
Here is a solid fact about the church of Christ,
No church is the same, meaning beliefs, and the members in each church rarely see eye to eye on everything.
People in the church of Christ talk about how God hates divison, and he does by the way, but in reality the church of Christ is more divided now than ever, and not just from church to church but from member to member. I think the log in our eye is really making it difficult to extrude the log out of our brothers. Just my thoughts.
Re: Is the church of Christ really non-denominational?
June 14 2006, 2:40 AM
Stephen,
It appears that your premise is faulty unless the expression “that the church of Christ” is meant to be “that the church that belongs to Christ.” It really doesn’t matter what the denominational world thinks—what it thinks is not going to change anyway and regardless. What matters is what each member who belongs to Christ’s church believes what church He established at Pentecost.
Let’s rephrase your premise in this manner and see the difference:
“I used to think ‘that the church that belongs to Christ’ was a non-denominational church, but I was wrong.”
What a difference there could be in our own attitude concerning the Lord’s church by simply honestly expressing something of this magnitude in a scriptural manner. The likely conclusion would be that the church that belongs to Christ is non-denominational. Indeed!!!
If a member of this body of Christ truly believes that He is the owner of the church He founded and also believes that it is patterned after New Testament guidelines, he shouldn’t even question the validity that there is one body, one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all (Eph. 4:4-6).
Does it mean that each member is sinless? Of course, not! Does it mean that all congregations should have a set [same] time and length of assembly period, or have the same number of elders, use one cup or multi-colored cups, etc.? No!
Does it mean that someone who hears the gospel and believes in the Savior needs to repent and be baptized in order to receive remission of sins and be added to the Lord’s church? Yes.
Does it mean that each congregation should adhere to Paul’s admonition—
“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” (I Cor. 1:10)
Yes! Is unity achievable? Yes! When the elders of the local congregation are grounded in the truth and are apt to teach [one qualification, BTW], cf. I Timothy 3:2; and feed the flock (I Peter 5:2) and are examples to the flock (I Peter 5:3).
Does the above passage apply to differences “from member to member”? No … not any more than to say that a Christian does not sin any longer or cannot fall from grace. So, please discard this idea that individual differences should make the church that belongs to Christ denominational.
It is my hope that you would re-evaluate your premise. The church that belongs to Christ is non-denominational.
What makes someones theology more right than anothers?
June 14 2006, 4:07 PM
I agree that everyone in that church will have the same theology about salvation. That is a given. But what about things that don't deal with salvation like musical instruments, how we take the Lord's Supper, not the time, but the manner we do it. Supporting Oprhanages, having a kitchen in the building, etc... Can a church be divided by this. How conseravtive is too conservative and liberal to liberal. I mean is every church right in their own sense or just yours. There are so many shades of the church of Christ it isn't even funny. Thanks for your response.
I grew up at Birdville Church of Christ in Fort Worth Texas. It is a conservative church. I was pretty much taught in fashion that I never really questioned anything just filled in the blanks of ideas and theology already assumed. I was never challenged. I was never taught to find what God says, just except what I was told. When I went to college at OC (Oklahoma Christian) I thought I knew it all, I had all the right awnsers to all the questions. Boy I was so wrong. I knew less of the Bible, than anyone in my classes. I couldn't back up any of the awnsers that I had drumed into my head. I was ashamed and embarraesed and that is when I started to really study God's word for myself. I think that I had my father's faith (my dad) and not my own. I have never changed on how I view God's plan for salvation, but I must say that I don't agree with some I was told at the church were I grew up. I just don't understand why the church of Christ has to be so split. It is, you can say it is not but I grew up in a family that attended 3 types of churches of Christ. They all thought the other was wrong and wouldn't have anything to do with the other. I am talking from anti to liberal. Growing up in that enviroment I saw it first hand. It is horrible and sad and I know it's not what God intended. The church has been changing for so long now, it's not a NEW thing. I find that what really seperates a family is how they view what is law and what is not. I used to be LAW driven I mean VERY! I had no love in my heart. I have seen so many Christians have that attitude. They speak like they are lawyers and not brothers. No love and that is one thing I learned in myself studies. I need to lead with love, not law. If I lead with law first I am only making it harder on me. Love is what Christ lead with. I see so many comments from the people who dictate this site than have no Love. That is were we have really failed. We forgot the love. The replys are so lawyeristic(I don't think that is a word). I just wish that people would learn to lead with love. I believe in one church. The church Christ built. Tell me I grew up in a family of three distinct types of church of Christs, that did not associate with the other, which on is it? Is it your church. I mean what kind of church is yours? I can see how someone could get lost in the churches of Christ, I did. I believe firmly in self study. I will never take someones, preacher or otherwise, on just their words alone. I will find it for myself. I thank you for this time. I hope that people will lead with love. I remember a song that goes God is love, God is love.
Stephen, would you share some of your old beliefs and what changed?
Could you explain what you were taught about instrumental music, the textbook and who taught the class? What did they teach that made it more of an optional view?
What other things did you once do but now believe are "optional."
Was this retraining connected with: "That is not a salvation issue?"
Did you find that their teaching of facts was based on whether it was "a salvation issue" or just factual.
Re: Is the church of Christ really non-denominational?
June 14 2006, 10:54 AM
stephen,
One of the most frustrating ideologies to deal with is this false premise that the Lord's church at ___________ has to answer for the Lord's church at some other place. So why do we have to answer for a group of people that use Christ's name to describe their church but they are not what they should be. (Neither should they have to answer for us if we are not what we should be.) In that case they are apostates that use an accurate description or name of Christ’s one church.
“…in reality the church of Christ is more divided now than ever…”
Respectfully here is where you have missed it completely. The church can not be divided. Are there congregations moving into apostasy? No doubt about it. When they leave the faith they do not divide the church, they separate themselves from it. They lose their candlestick if you will. Even if they still meet together, still have the name on the building, call each other brother and even call me brother. This has happened through the ages. Groups of people who at one time belong to Christ leave so they can serve their own will. They become gods to themselves. Teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.
Acts 20:30 "Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.”
To whom are the Elders mentioned here drawing disciples after? THEMSELVES!
Do various “church of Christ” have conflicting teaching? You are right they do and it breaks my heart. But make no mistake, if they or we teach our commandments in substitute for Christ’s doctrine we are following our own will not Christ. It does not matter what name is on the front of the building? If we do so we or they have not divided the church we have left it.
That is why denominationalism is such a sad thing, as well as being in direct conflict with God’s teaching. We can’t all be right. We can’t have one group saying, “you don’t have to obey Christ commandments to be saved”, and another group saying, “you must obey Christ commandments to be saved”, and both be right. Logic demands that someone is in conflict with God and his word. Someone is “teaching for doctrine the commandment of men.”
I understand the reality of denominationalism in this world, and the fact that most religious groups accept, embrace, and celebrate it is by it’s self an example of the error we see in denominationalism. Even though I see the reality of it, it seems to me many are upset that we do not embrace it, or at the least, they think it wrong that the truth, of one church found in Christ, should be proclaimed.
If you and I and every one we know get it wrong, that will not change the truth that Jesus died for one church.
Truth does not change if I believe a lie with all my heart.
Truth does not change if the majority of the people believe a lie.
Truth does not change if the majority of religious groups believe a lie.
Truth does not change if my parents believe a lie.
Truth does not change if every one in the whole world believes a lie.
My goal is to be in that one church. To love the truth and so be saved. II Thes 2:9ff I refuse to follow the apostate down the road to separation from the Lord’s one church. Feel free to point out hypocrisy from among those who claim Christ. Since when did hypocrisy, yes even hypocrisy among those who have “church of Christ” on their building, change the truth of the Bible?
No it’s about truth and the authority of Christ. Not so much about who you can point to that disagrees or agrees. One church made up only of those who are subject to Christ, not made up of those who do it their own way.
Re: Is the church of Christ really non-denominational?
June 15 2006, 11:02 AM
Darryl,
I agree with much of what you wrote. However, the one point of continention I have is where you write "We can’t have one group saying, 'you don’t have to obey Christ commandments to be saved', and another group saying, 'you must obey Christ commandments to be saved'" To my knowledge there isn't a group even distantly related to the cofC that is saying you don't have to obey Christ commandments to be saved. I think every group believes they are pursuing Christ commandments as purely as possible but all make mistakes.
The problem I see with this site is how so much time is spent on what the other side is doing wrong, but little time is spent evaluating our own selves. I've been to conservative churches and sat through a "sermon" which basically consisted of what "Rubel" or "Max" is doing wrong when it was obvious they had never even read a book by the author but only repeating what others had said. All the while I was looking around and not seeing one visitor or even one convert that had not grown up at that church. I'm sure there exists stories from the other side of view. We liberals can be a condenscending bunch as well.
I found it quite ironic how on a recent post a regular to this site was saying how they couldn't fellowship a group that couldn't get right the appropriate day to worship, when in fact a Saturday night worship is more scriptural than a Sunday night worship considering the Jewish day started at sunset. But is the solution disfellowshipping those who believe the lie of having a Sunday night service?
I believe also that there is only one church. I am just not confident that a prerequisite for being a member of that one church is attending a church building on Sunday morning that has "church of Christ" on the outside. I grew up church of Christ and I expect to die church of Christ, but I don't think I can claim that the church of Christ is the keeper of all truths.
I admire your conviction to refuse to follow the apostate down the road to separation from the Lord’s one church. But I'm interested in exactly what is required to be an apostate? Stating that Jesus did not raise from the dead or that church needs to build a gym. My guess is that it is somewhere in between, but I'd be interested in seeing where that line is and your reasoning for it.
Personally, if someone loves the Lord their God with all their heart, soul, and mind, and loves their neighbor as themself yet doesn't necessarily infer that on Sunday morning they better not use instruments during worship, is it my place to say that they are not part of that one church? Don't get me wrong, I do believe that it is good to have a conversation and share our convictions, but is it possible that we can read the exact same scriptures and come to different conclusions? What if I conclude the wrong way? My hope, and if I understand I John correctly, my belief is that if we continue to walk in the light that my sins, even doctrinal sins, are continually washed away.
There seems to be a move on to "move" worship from Sunday AM to Saturday PM, or at least to emphasize Saturday PM worship over Sunday PM worship. Could this be a Seventh-Day Adventist overtone? The concept derives from the fact that each "day" in first-century Palestine spanned from sunset to sunset, with the further claim that since Sunday PM worship falls outside this time frame, it is therefore unscriptural. So if Christian worship should follow the Saturday PM time frame of the first century, it follows that it should match the time frame in ancient Palestine (now present-day Israel), for the "hour of worship" in that part of the world is the gold standard for worship. At least that's what some are really implying when they would change worship to Saturday PM, based on the first-century standard. Given that, then Christians in each time zone of the world would have to calculate when their time zone corresponded to Saturday PM in Israel. In doing so, Christians all over the world would then be worshiping at the same relative time, be that at midday or 3 AM, but it all would be based on the first-century standard of Saturday PM.
But I gather that by now, many are rolling their eyes and saying, "How ridiculous!" And it is.
The "day" in the Middle East may have been from sunset to sunset, but in the Western world, it spans from midnight to midnight. "Sunday" in the Middle East may have been from sunset on Saturday to sunset on Sunday, but in the West, "Sunday" runs from 12 midnight Sunday to 11:59.99 PM on Sunday. Time zones and when the days change determine when "Sunday" arrives. That is, all time is relative. Regarding Saturday PM as "Sunday" and worshiping thereon may be fine for the Middle East, but in the West, Saturday PM is still regarded as "Saturday PM," which is not yet Sunday.
In the West, Saturday PM worship does not correspond to worship on the first day of the week (Sunday). On the other hand, Sunday AM and PM worship still fall on the first day of the week.
Thank you, I agree whole heartedly with that. So is it based on the individual? Very confusing. Is truth how each person determines what God is telling us in the Bible. I mean let's take the topic of supporting Orphanages. The church I grew up in supported them. My grandparents church didn't. Both Church of Christ, they just saw the truth in the scriptures different. Is it something you have in your heart? Like not going against your heart? What is the truth from one person to the next. I know there is a truth. God gave us the truth. But as an individual studying, can I see God's truth differently than another and it still be true. Starting to sound like a philosophy class. I am just throwing questions out. Why take anyone elses word for what the truth is other than what we believe in our personal studies that God is telling us. Is this a heart issue? Thanks for your time.
I just want to say that was the most understandable and loving response I have EVER seen posted on this site. I reread it and I really see where you are coming from. I am still confused about a lot of things, but I see that the Church will never be divided, we will just seperate ourselves from it. Like sin, we will never as christians be divided from God, but sin can separate us from him. Again thank you for an understandable response and one that has a loving undertone.
“However, the one point of continention I have is where you write "We can’t have one group saying, 'you don’t have to obey Christ commandments to be saved', and another group saying, 'you must obey Christ commandments to be saved'" To my knowledge there isn't a group even distantly related to the cofC that is saying you don't have to obey Christ commandments to be saved.”
I understand what you are saying. What I mean is they do not actually say, “you don’t have to obey Christ’s commandments to be saved”, they just say things like, “you don’t have to be baptized to be saved”, or on the other hand “you only have to be baptized to be saved.” (Leaving off repentance, and a new walk in life.) I have heard both from “cofC” members. That is the equivalent of “you don’t have to obey Christ’s commandments to be saved”. Sorry for the confusion. ;O)
But I'm interested in exactly what is required to be an apostate?
I might not have been clear in my post but the answer is in this. “Teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.” If a congregation or individual chooses to set aside biblical doctrine, they have crossed a line. Not out of ignorance, but setting it aside. They have become the objects of their church and the objects of their worship. To some degree I would say it is intent. Ignorance of God’s will, and weakness of man is forgiven when as you quote I John, “when we walk in the light as He is in the light”. But, what I might do in ignorance becomes rebellion when I learn the truth and continue on the same path. The sin is not only the error, but now the error + rebellion. A path that was formerly done in ignorance becomes a path that leads to destruction.
I have a friend that relayed a couple of events of his childhood that he did not understand. He was confused about the discipline that he received as a child. In one event he was told by his father not to go down to the pond in his church clothes. Of course he did and received a hard “whippin” for it. (been there and done that) The other event was when he was around 8 he decided to get the keys to their car and take it for a spin on the ranch. He related how his father only scolded him for his poor decision. His confusion was that the harsh punishment was for something not very dangerous, (A trip to the pond), and the lesser punishment was for something that could have cost him his life. (Driving the car) The answer lies not in the physical danger but in the spiritual danger. One was an act of rebellion, and the other was an act of an 8-year-olds stupidity. One path will get you killed, the other path (rebellion) will kill the body and the soul.
So when people teach there are many churches (denominations) and they have learned from God’s word that there is “one church” they are left with a decision. Do I (1) proclaim one church, or (2) in order to keep the peace, spare feelings, and/or remain popular I continue to proclaim all denominations are OK? Which one is rebellion?
”I do believe that it is good to have a conversation and share our convictions, but is it possible that we can read the exact same scriptures and come to different conclusions?
I agree! That is why we study. If I already had it all figured out I would leave my Bible at home. ;O)
”What if I conclude the wrong way?”
Is my conclusion based upon truth and the searching for it, or is it based upon, what I like, what Mom and Dad would like, or how can I please the people around me.
Stephen,
Thank you for your kind words.
”Why take anyone elses word for what the truth is other than what we believe in our personal studies that God is telling us.”
Amen. Let’s let God tell us through His word. Let’s follow Paul’s admonition (commandment) that we “Test all things, and hold on to the good” I Thes 5:21.
In my lifetime I have observed many changes in our society, some good, others bad. In the last 20 years I have seen several changes appearing in our churches.
Until recently our formal greeting for fellow-Christians was "Brother or Sister Smith, or Jones." For many it is now Mr. or Ms. From the Scripture, we learned that Peter referred to Paul as "our beloved brother Paul" (II Pet. 3:15). Jesus said to his disciples, "all ye are brethren" (Matt. 23:8). He pointed to his disciples and said, "Behold, my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother" (Matt. 12:49-50). Paul said, "ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:27). Since all Christians are children of a common Father in heaven, we must of necessity be brothers and sisters in Christ.
In days past our brethren reserved the use of brother and sister to those who were fellow-members of the body of Christ. When addressing or referring to those of other religious bodies they generally spoke of them as Mr. or Mrs. since they were not members of the Lord's church. Now, with the new ecumenical spirit brought in by the promoters of the change movement, I fully expect we will be hearing some folks referring to Bro. Brown of the Episcopal Church, or Bro. Black of the Catholic Church Or Bro. White of the Baptist Church.
In days past when a preacher of the church of Christ spoke of "the church" he meant the church of Christ, that particular church which Christ built, the church revealed in the New Testament. It was not used to identify the Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox or any other denomination, cult or sect. Now however, change agents commonly speak of "the church" with clear reference to the Roman Catholic Church even in those centuries of her cruel and bloody persecution of believers like us who dared to defy her in their attempt to serve Christ. To change agents, the church includes all their denominational neighbors, no matter how foreign their faith and worship be to the New Testament of Christ. Strangely those champions of change no longer view the church of Christ of which they are members to be the church of Christ that Jesus built!
The term Christian was used primarily to refer to fellow members of the church of Christ. They were in the Lord's kingdom because they had been born of water and Spirit (John 3:3-5). They were in Christ, since they had been baptized into him (Gal. 3:26-27). They claim to be Christians, without denominational affiliation (I Pet. 4:16). They took the Bible alone as their standard for their faith, worship and practice. They wore only the name Christian and eschewed all denominational suffices. Now agents of change extend the honorable name Christian to any and all who confess Christ, regardless of their denominational connection or their imperfections of their faith and practice. Even those who preach another gospel (Gal. 1:6-9) are afforded this sacred name.
These, among many other items, are the changes being introduced into the faith and practice of Christ's church.
This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!
...........................THE BOOK
What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?
There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.
This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison
Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource
references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least
you will recognize the signs early on.
Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't
know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.
Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was
one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.
It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of
it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word
of Jesus Christ.
At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority
of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly
realm.
They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and
to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.
The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan.
Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books,
seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change
so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....
At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to
be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched
through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the
"Community Church Movement"
Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready,
or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the
plans very nature, it had to be secret.
The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was
never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last
15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.
The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the
elders went along unwittingly.
This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell
something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill
in some of the timeline.
To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the
background materials in the first of the book.
This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be
printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our
web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison
Here is the list of players;
5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten
commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
